Video summary
The central argument presented in this discussion reframes the gender pay gap not as a simple disparity between men and women, but specifically as a penalty borne by mothers compared to fathers. The speakers emphasize that while historical trends show salaries rising for both genders simultaneously until childbirth causes a divergence, the root cause is often structural rather than discriminatory. A key solution proposed involves implementing equal paid parental leave for fathers; if parents can share this responsibility equally, women would be able to return to their careers sooner and maintain higher wages. This approach treats men's and women's issues as symbiotically linked problems that must be solved together, moving beyond the assumption that biological differences or inherent behavioral choices are solely responsible for economic disparities. To illustrate how non-discriminatory factors influence earnings, the conversation highlights a massive study conducted by Harvard on Uber drivers in America, which analyzed millions of data points to determine why women earned less than men performing identical automated jobs. The research identified three primary reasons: men frequently drove during higher-paying night shifts and graveyard hours due to different lifestyle preferences; they remained with the platform longer, accumulating more experience-based bonuses; and statistically, male drivers simply drove faster, earning 50% of the pay gap through speed alone rather than bias. This evidence supports the conclusion that when controlling for job type, experience level, and hours worked, the remaining pay gap shrinks significantly to roughly nine cents on the dollar, suggesting that much of the perceived inequality stems from different behavioral patterns shaped by environment and biology rather than overt discrimination. The dialogue further explores the tension between individual autonomy and societal expectations regarding motherhood versus career ambition. While some argue that women's choices are entirely self-determined, others point out that these "choices" are often constrained by a lack of support systems or cultural conditioning. The speakers note an interesting phenomenon in egalitarian Scandinavian countries where gender differences actually increased as barriers fell, allowing biological predispositions to surface more freely. Furthermore, data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics reveals a disconnect between parental desires and reality: while many fathers want part-time parenting roles but are forced into full-time work due to economic necessity, mothers' actual experiences align closely with their desire for part-time arrangements or full-time motherhood. This suggests that current systems fail to account for women who genuinely enjoy the transformative experience of raising children, potentially penalizing them when they choose this path over a traditional corporate trajectory. Finally, the discussion addresses the double standards applied to men and women regarding career sacrifices and domestic roles. The speakers share personal anecdotes contrasting their father's successful but absent career-focused life with their mother's network-building years at home, arguing that society often undervalues the latter while romanticizing the former without acknowledging the costs incurred by both parents. A critical point raised is that autonomy must be respected regardless of whether a woman chooses to become a CEO or an abusive partner; women are human beings capable of both saintly and evil acts, just as men are. The conclusion reinforces that we should uplift all forms of contribution equally, respecting a mother's choice to stay home with the same value accorded to a father who travels for conferences, ultimately calling for a societal shift where neither gender is penalized or praised based on rigid expectations about how they "should" behave in the workforce and at home.
Read the full video transcript
what do people get wrong about the
gender pay Gap I know this is something
that you've looked at quite a lot yeah
yeah I mean oh it's I mean there's so
much to say I mean I guess first of all
I'd say it's not a gap between men and
women it's a gap between mothers and
fathers and there's some really
excellent I mean I love Graphics there's
a really great graphic about different
countries and you see men and women's
salaries going up like this together
over time and then women's comes down
and men's carries and going and it's
like well what happened there it was all
going so well it's all going so well and
then suddenly and it's like child they
had a child and the women have taken
time off work to have a child they get
longer paternity maternity leave in the
UK
and um if they do go back to work they
go back part-time if at all so I'd say
it's better seen as a child penalty paid
by mothers and the solution to that
penalty is probably something to do with
equal paid parental leave for fathers so
if we can give fathers equal leave to
mothers
uh murders will be able to return to
work sooner and then return to their
sort of career journey and the pay Gap
will be closed through more parental
leave for dads and that's a really good
example of like
a approach I like to take where we look
at men's and women's issues as
symbiotically linked the problem of one
is the problem of another and on any
equation you've got to look at both
sides so I'd say one side of the problem
is to pick up the other side is
parentally for fathers and you've got to
solve them both I mean there's also a
lot of evidence where
men work longer hours Men Travel forever
men want more dangerous jobs and work in
Industries where
um are more higher paying
which is true but then I guess you've
got to deal with the discussion of like
well why are men choosing these jobs why
are women not working in engineering why
are women not working in stem and
there's so much to say about that but
it really comes down to
the individual differences of men and
women in general like do we have
different interests do we have different
behaviors and if so are they shaped by
our biology are they shaped by our
environment is it both and I mean it's
both it's surely both so
I guess the answer to what you're saying
is that men make different decisions men
behave differently they go for different
jobs they don't take equal parental
leave they
um they're just different people in
general and a lot of that has an impact
on salary there's a really good um the
biggest study ever on the pay Gap
I think it was done by Harvard
and um
you basically looked at Uber drivers in
America so the big reason was the
biggest because he had so much data Uber
obviously has so much data and men and
women both try viewers in America and
they they looked at the paying and they
were like well women are getting paid
less at Uber so how does that make sense
because it's obviously all automated so
like what a great great way of studying
male or female Behavior to to work out
what is in the scap and there's three
things in the Gap the first was men
drove at different times at night so men
would do the graveyard shifts the early
mornings we're getting paid more they
would want to do that women less so the
second was that men were more likely to
stick with the platform for longer so
they had more experiences they benefited
from experience makes sense of any job
and the third reason which is 50 of the
Gap was that men just drive faster
so let's drive a little faster guys then
you'll close that Gap
yeah I mean I guess it's I mean
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that shows it's not it wasn't
discrimination that's causing the pay
Gap in Uber it was just different types
of a heavy right foot different types of
behavior and I guess we could have a
discussion of what shapes that behavior
but we need to start that conversation
with it's not discrimination at least an
Uber different types of behavior and if
you factor in you know with men and
women same job same experience same
level same hours worked the pay gap's
like 99 cents to the dollar
and in fact Asian men are paid even more
than white men and Asian women and it's
like Asian privilege baby yeah
Asian privilege and you know I really I
I loved learning about this um from some
of your infographics and what I love is
the conception of the difference is
between asking why are women paid less
and when are women paid less yeah yeah
that's the conception right it's not
about it's not about a reason it's about
a time and the time is
motherhood the time is becoming a mother
and here's the thing man you know you've
seen this in the Scandinavian countries
this was sort of Peterson's Big Break
whatever five or six years ago when he
was talking about as you make countries
more egalitarian you see gender
differences between the Sexes increase
not shrink because you open up the uh
ability for your biological
predisposition which isn't predetermined
but it is a predisposition uh for you to
be able to go and do the things that you
want to do now the interesting thing is
I wonder if you were to say
um
a a mother and a father how much is uh
leaving the UK is like nine months
usually right for a moment I mean it's
12 months but it's sort of splits in
government and the workplace okay so
let's say yeah let's say you're doing
that let's say you increased it and
let's say that there was
um 18 months and that had to be split
between the father and the mother
right so you have 18 months and that's
the household and you can choose to
split this however you want something
tells me that would be making the system
more egalitarian right the decision is
now completely in the hands of the
family something tells me that there is
a lot of mothers that would just go
looks like I'm getting
17 months and one week of leave like
crack on honey because it completely
fails to account for the fact that women
who are mothers a lot of the time love
being mothers for the most part that's
the reason that they chose to become
mothers sound too loud yeah
presuming that um
presuming that women
actually enjoy the the experience of
becoming a mother which for lots and
lots of my female friends who are
writers who work in offices who are
high-powered lean in career style boss
baby women it's been the it's been the
single most transformative thing that
they've done it is they absolutely adore
it and if I was to tell them that they
had to get themselves back to work
earlier they would feel like they've
lost well part of their life I'd say
like that I'd say the ideal choice for
both fathers and mothers is part-time
parenting part-time work that's what the
data says both parents want women want
it more like I've looked there's been
some interesting
studies where like I think it was the
New York Times They asked parents what
they wanted
do you want like part-time work
full-time work full-time parenting
and um and then I I found some
interesting
um Bureau of Labor Statistics data on
what actually happens like what is the
reality and it was like the biggest
difference between what a parent wants
and what they get was their full-time
dads so that the vast majority of dads
are working full-time but a lot of them
want to be sort of part-time parents
whereas if you look at the data for like
full-time parenting full-time motherhood
that was actually the closest that was
where the what mothers wanted and what
mothers got married at the most so he
got like working dads over here lots of
them working full-time but lots of them
wanted to be parents as well so I'm like
if I don't know why we don't see workers
not a choice either like everyone talks
about motherhood isn't a choice and it
isn't but then dads don't get that
choice either like they have to go to
work they can't be like I'm not going to
go to work today because they do that's
how it works and um I don't know if we
talk about the sacrifices Farmers make
in that way uh we do we do talk about
mothers not enough and we can talk about
them more but I mean my dad he was a
career father and he was very successful
he spent his whole life traveling the
world going to conferences speaking at
large events like really smart guy but
we never saw him he was out earning
money and my mum took time off her
career to raise my sister and I
and as a result she's built a massive
network of friends like all her
girlfriends around the village well she
I imagine she met them when she was
going to like play school and going to
playground to pick us up
now they're both retired and he I guess
he's not got that same network of
friends like my mother my mum has and
I'm like the price of his sacrifices
being paid now but the price of my mum
sacrifice was paid at the time now she's
enjoying she's enjoying retirement she's
got all her friends she's got like a
family she's got a great connection to
me and my my sister because we spent so
much time with her and I'm like I don't
know if my dad has that same
benefit because he spent his life
working working for us and he didn't
have a choice if you met my mum he would
not she he had to go to work and um
I think we should see the benefit of
both and we should uplift women to
become lovers if they want to like we
should give a woman CEO as much value
and respect as a mother like both are
like just disrespectful and just as
valuable
um and it's like we talk about a lot of
the left they they talk about how
empowering women to do whatever they
want uh women's autonomy but then it's
like the autonomy ends when it's her
decision to do something they don't like
like be a mother like what if a man
wants to be full-time full-time mum and
it's like well well now she's internally
oppressed she's been conned by the
patriarchy yeah being a domestic
housewife she's a proponent of the
patriarchy of course she's brainwashed
she has to be brainwashed any woman has
a different opinion to me it has to be
brainwashed and it's like again without
in a darker sense like abusive women
like that's the decision women make too
but we we ignore that we don't accept
that level of autonomy when a woman
chooses our autonomy to be abusive or
violent we have a really hard time
seeing that and accepting that like if a
woman comes a woman who wants to become
a CEO excellent we love it a woman who
wants screen abuser less so and I know I
mean I'll quote Margaret Atwood to you
but she's she talked about my
fundamental position is that women are
human beings capable of both saintly and
evil evil doings and uh
I think that's true they're not perfect
they're just as flawed as men are like
they're no better not or worse and we
need to sort of see them in the full
sort of color of their beauty and good
or bad that's what autonomy is and um I
don't know if we extend that autonomy to
that breadth in motherhood or anywhere
else and then
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