"This Is Why Therapy Sucks For Men" - My Brutal Advice For Young People | Robert Greene

Duration: 11:33 2069 transcript words EN summary

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Robert Greene proposes a rigorous formula for human fulfillment, arguing that it requires four specific elements: difficulty derived from evolutionary necessity, an activity that generates more energy than it consumes (inherent enjoyment), the transformation of potential into skill sets, and crucially, service to both oneself and one's group. He contends that lacking any single component results in dissatisfaction; even if a task is loved and improves skills but only serves the individual without benefiting others, true fulfillment remains out of reach. While acknowledging exceptions like artists who may find satisfaction despite being difficult people or ignoring societal norms, Greene emphasizes that their work must still resonate with an audience to be truly fulfilling. He cites Nikola Tesla as a prime example of someone whose brilliance was matched by misery because he failed to create the necessary "echo" where society reflected back the value of his contributions, leaving him isolated and unhappy despite his inventions benefiting humanity posthumously. The conversation shifts to the nature of therapy and self-absorption, with Greene asserting that traditional talk therapy often exacerbates mental suffering rather than curing it by encouraging individuals to dwell on their problems. He argues that constantly analyzing one's grievances—such as parental issues or personal failures—is akin to a centripetal force drawing people further inward into a vortex of negativity. Instead, he advocates for "centrifugal" forces where energy is directed outward through work, empathy, and helping others. To counteract the tendency toward self-absorption, Greene references Gurdjieff's teachings on self-observation, an exercise designed to watch one's body-mind interactions without judgment or venting. He notes that most human thoughts revolve around unpleasant emotions like frustration and anger; by observing these feelings rather than expressing them verbally, they lose their power and eventually dissipate because speaking about problems reinforces their strength within the psyche. Greene illustrates this dynamic with a personal anecdote about his wife's reaction to artists who achieved flow states in creation but never sold books or received recognition during their lifetimes. While such individuals might experience internal satisfaction from the act of composing, Greene points out that without external validation and contribution, the pain is inevitable because they are trapped in self-absorption. He contrasts this with the ideal state where a person's voracious brain energy is used to build things and solve problems rather than ranting online about injustices or complaining about personal circumstances. The core issue he identifies in modern society is that humans have inverted their natural design; built for empathy and external problem-solving, we instead turn our complex brains inward, eating ourselves alive with introspection on trivialities like education systems or family dynamics until the issues become deeper and more irrational. Throughout the discussion, Greene reflects on his own career as a writer of dark bestsellers versus his desire to be an artist or novelist, admitting that he is not good at what others envy him for but would pay any price to possess Elon Musk's engineering mind. He acknowledges that while it sounds strange to succeed in one field and lament missing out on another, the human psyche naturally wonders about unexplored paths because "the grass is always greener." Despite his success filling a niche few can occupy, he maintains humility regarding his own limitations compared to figures like Tesla or Musk. Ultimately, Greene concludes that genuine fulfillment comes not from introspective rumination but from exteriorizing one's energy into meaningful work that serves the group, thereby transforming potential skill sets into tangible contributions that alleviate self-absorption and provide a sense of purpose.

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Do you have a math equation for lack of a better word for fulfillment? How would that be? A plus B equals C. So, here I think that So, I agree with you so violently I want to bite through the table. Uh Go ahead. So, I am might not be the the best use of my teeth. Uh So, I have a rough formula of what I think leads to fulfillment. I think about this a lot, so I'm always looking for somebody that can help me refine. But, I think it goes like this. It has to be hard and there's reasons for this from an evolutionary standpoint, but it has to be hard. It has to be something that you get more energy from than it takes, so it's something that you inherently enjoy. And it has to be something that allows you to transform your potential into skill set and that skill set has to be something that serves you and the group. If you do all of that, you will be fulfilled. If any one of those pieces are missing, it's really hard, it's something you love, you're improving your skill set, but it only serves you, you won't be fulfilled. If all of it, but it only serves the group and not you, you won't be fulfilled. It It seems to me that it has to have all of those elements. Yeah, I mean, I think there are people unfortunately who get that fulfillment without the group part. Do you Do you think they're actually fulfilled? Yeah, I mean, um if you like artists who write who do some kind of great art but they're not necessarily the best people in the world. You know, they might be a total dick, but if they're art, which I think is its own punishment, PS, but they may find fulfillment in their art if they get feedback from the group, the group is moved, it's sublime, you know, and so their art creates the desired feeling in that person. They have contributed to the group in my estimation. But, if that same artist made art and nobody gave a [ __ ] about it, I don't think they would feel fulfilled. Well, you know, I don't want to split hairs with you cuz you're largely correct, but I do I can't think of examples of people who were ignored in their lifetime and it was painful, but they knew they were right. They knew they had created something brilliant. They knew they had created some invention and it was ignored and nobody cared and nobody liked them. And it was painful. Nikola Tesla. Yeah, he was pretty miserable. Yeah. So, despite doing all this incredible [ __ ] being out of step with your time is rough. You are the shout and the echo. So, even though when Einstein was asked, "What's it like to be the most brilliant man alive?" he said, "I don't know. You'll have to ask Nikola Tesla." Despite that, Tesla died very unhappy by all accounts. I obviously did not know him, certainly alone and broke. And so, there was something was missing. He could never get I'm I am definitely psychoanalyzing somebody I have no right to, but I have a gut instinct that because he could not figure out the echo part of doing something in a way where people reflected back that yes, this is amazingly valuable. That even though now we all reap the benefits, was very little consolation. I I I can't think of it cuz my mind is slowing down, but I've been talking recently uh with my wife about artists and composers etc. who had no success in life. She goes, "Really?" She said, "Yeah. Never sold any books. Their music was ignored." But my research of them they they had just in the work itself, in the absorption of the mind in composing this brilliant thing or in writing this thing, they had that flow. Yes, the pain is definitely there. I'm not arguing against you cuz I said Oh, you might be right. I mean, I'm utterly fascinated. splitting hairs, but they The thing is is the sense of flow because what happens is what makes you miserable is your self-absorption in in in many ways. Right? The worst form of therapy is to sit there and talk about your problems. The best form of therapy is to get outside of yourself. Brother, people are going to be like, the record just skipped for a lot of people. Go back. The worst form of therapy is talk therapy? What what Yeah. Yeah, I Well, I mean, it maybe is not the worst, but it's not to me the most productive therapy to just talk about your problems. Really? Why? Because it's like it's like accentuating your self-absorption. Right? Whereas what you need is to get outside of yourself, not in to all of your your problems. Now, of course, I I'm contradicting myself cuz I talked about introspection. That's a different thing. We're not introspecting about my problems, what my parents did to me, more more Oh, I'm so miserable, blah blah blah. I'm sure there are forms of talking therapy that are good, so I shouldn't generalize that. But what I think I don't know, something feels intuitively right about this. Yeah. Well, I just wrote Sorry, I keep doing that. About um this man, people won't have heard of him. He's he's a a Russian mystic, whatever you want to call him, Gurdjieff. Who had these exercises. I don't know. Um one thing he taught his students was to not vent your unpleasant emotions. So, he had this exercise called self-observation. Where you had to go observe yourself like you did in the most deepest way, not just your thoughts, but about your body and how your body and your mind interact in this insane continual blend. There's no separation. So, one kind of thought will affect your body, but a feeling in your gut will affect your thinking. You're all this Observe yourself. Observe yourself. Observe yourself. And he said you will discover in observing yourself that most of your thoughts revolve around unpleasant emotions. It's a very bad thing to realize, but it's true. I use the number 95% but I I as I said I'm pulling it out of you know what again. Um okay. So most of it is dealing with frustration, resentment, anger, bitterness, etc. etc. etc. Okay? And he said, "Look at those emotions, see them. Do not judge them. Do not say they're bad or good or whatever. And don't ever talk about them. Don't vent them to people. You can look at them but don't talk about them." And the people who experience it go, "Whoa. I'm not talking about them." They start to Well, they start to go away. I didn't really feel them cuz I never expressed them. So expressing them was kind of what makes them stronger and more embedded inside of you. I feel like we're doing that culturally right now. Yes, most definitely. I mean, look. What is the crux of the problem in people today if I had to summarize it? Well, and I don't mean people. I'm include myself in them us cuz I'm a human being as well as far as I know. I've heard, yeah. It's that we're self-absorbed. Right? I think that's the root cause of so many of our issues. Right? Because we're creatures that are actually built for empathy, for actually putting our minds into other things, into people, into animals, into solving problems, into our work. That's who we are. And we've turned that around where all of that voracious brain energy that we have as I said, I just wrote a chapter on the brain and this is insanely powerful instrument that is so complex. People say it's the most complex piece of matter in the universe, right? It's so powerful. And when you turn inward it just eats us alive inside. It's like a bacteria eating us from within as opposed to exteriorizing it into work, into creating things, into building things, into empathy, into working with other people. And if we're getting all ranty and outraged about justices, etc., etc., what you really need to do is to get outside of that and out and helping other people, genuinely helping them. Right? If your cause is and it's my cause as well as the environment, which I believe extre- a lot and where my charity goes to, then ranting and complaining online and making people feel bad is useless. Go out and start a movement, create something, do something. You'll feel so much better about yourself and you'll be contributing it. But what we don't need is more of that self-absorption. It's like a centrifu- centripetal force that's drawing us further and further and further in. My problems, my parents, my education, my brother and sister, my wife, my my my my what? More and more inward, more problems, it gets deeper deeper, more and irras- irradiated inside of ourselves. Right? You want to get out of yourself, right? And put it into your work. So, you know, let's say you're an artist, right? I have great respect for artists. I kind of wished I had been an art- I'm a failed artist. This is the guy who's written incredible best-selling books. I've walked through bookstores and watched them bring in stacks of books that you wrote decades ago. Oh yeah, but I wanted to be a a novelist, you know. So fascinating. It is so weird to me that you can sell at your level and still be like, "Oh, but I wanted to be this." I'm the same, which is why I have such a response to that, because I am not good at the things that I wanted to be good at and the things that I am good at that other people envy me for, I'm like, "Uh, like that's not very interesting." it that you wanted to be? That list is very long. I My If I could snap my fingers, I would be Elon Musk. That is like my fantasy of fantasies. you you have plenty of time. You're young. Yeah, we'll see. A, I'm 46. What's he, like 47, 48? Like he's barely older than me. He's over 50 now. 51? 52? I mean, he's like was certainly within striking distance. And look, I am honest enough with myself, know thyself as Robert Greene would say, uh, that I don't my brain doesn't process data the way that his does. Now, he warns people like me not to want to be like him because he says having the intrusive thoughts that he has around engineering and problem-solving, he said it's, you know, it's like having this thing turned on that you can't turn off and you wish you could. But I I would pay that price. So, before we started rolling, you and I were talking. I'm I am very enamored with what you've created and put into the world. And you've you still fill a niche that so few people are able to fill. I think it's utterly fascinating. You I said once in our earlier interview that when I read your books, I can hear wolves howling in the background. But in real life, you're so lovely and kind and considerate. So, most people that write dark books are [ __ ] dark and they don't even realize they're writing a dark book. But like your stuff really deals with an underbelly of the human condition. But yet you're this lovely person. Anyway, what you've put in the world I think is absolutely incredible. And so, I totally understand the the impetus to be good at one thing, to wish you were good at something else. But it is a very fascinating part of the human psyche. Well, probably, if I had been a novelist, I would and then was at this age and I was successful at saying, you know, I really wanted to write non-fiction. Correct. The grass is always greener. So, who am I to say? If you liked that clip, check out the full powerful episode here and I'll see you there.