This Forgotten Exercise Builds Your Back, Bulletproofs Your Shoulders and Boosts Your Bench | 2939

Look, do you want to build your back? Do you want to bulletproof your shoulders? Do you want to boost your bench press? There's one exercise that does all of that and it's one exercise a lot of you are not doing. It's a phenomenal movement. You got to do it. It's great. We're going to talk about it today. The crossbench dumbbell pullover. Let's get to it. >> Forgotten great movement. It is such a good exercise. >> What's crazy? So, when you break down this exercise, which we're going to do, we're going to break it down and why it's such an awesome exercise. But when you break it down, it becomes clear why this was such a prized movement in the early days of bodybuilding uh and strength training. Because, you know, back in the day, lifters prized certain exercises for two reasons. One, uh it was a feat of strength that seemed to matter. They didn't pick any exercise to see how strong they were. It's not like they were competing over a calf raise. they would do lifts that like meant you were really strong. Like just like an overhead press, that's an obvious one. Like lift a heavy weight overhead. >> If you could lift more than I can, you're probably just stronger than I am. Uh overall, so that's like a good example. The other reason why they price certain movements is they just noticed to change their bodies. It just developed great muscle, great definition, functionality. And back in the day, the crossbench pullover was one of those lifts. Like this was a lift that bodybuilders used to compare each other over. they would compete with. In fact, they would even do it with a barbell at times uh to see how strong they were. And some somehow it just kind of fell out of favor to the point where you actually still even today we talk about this exercise all the time, but even today you rarely see people doing these in the gym, which is such a travesty because they're such a phenomenal. >> Wonder why. Yeah, cuz it's such a valuable exercise. >> Maybe because it's hard to get into. >> I have a guess. >> What is it? I think it I mean what is the thing that we learned all these years of podcasting like this the most simple basic stuff uh that we talk about is the most appealing and sharable and people like it's just >> and I think that movement >> uh is not obvious >> like >> it doesn't fall neatly into account >> oh yeah like you don't like the average person okay obviously we have a lot of educated listeners and so they're probably I know exactly what it's for like okay most people >> would see a dumbbell pullover. If a client who just hired you and you showed them that movement, you said, "What are you working here?" I guarantee they would go, "I have no idea." >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And they'd probably be wrong. >> And so I think because of that, >> people are just unsure of what they're supposed to be feeling doing. And so I think that's why cuz cuz it's really not that hard to get into. It's you really don't need a lot of room. uh you can easily regress with weight and range of motion. It there's there's a lot of reasons why it shouldn't be forgotten, but I do think it's one of those things. It's like when you when you walk in a gym and you see one of those really complex machines that don't make sense either. Yeah. What is this? You know, people walk away. >> I think you're right. And I think the other reason why is it's been replaced by inferior replacements. So, if you look at like a straight arm pull down with a rope or a straight bar, you you see that happen. I go into gyms and I see that exercise probably once a week, right? Whereas I see a dumbbell crossbench pullover, never. And if you looked at them both, you'd think they were the same. They're not. It's a similar movement, but they're not the same movement. >> Unbelievably inferior. >> Very Yes. It's so different. >> It's funny you bring that up. Uh because I haven't thought about that. >> I haven't thought about it in a long time. And that was such a bodybuilder movement. >> Yeah. >> That they cable. >> Yes. >> Or the ropes. It was just and I'd always be like weak. Why? Yeah. With the cables, I'm like, >> "Grab grab a dumbbell." And the the stretch that you get on on the dumbbell, how much you can load it like just so much better. >> It's interesting, too, cuz one is a mass building, power strength building movement. The other one is like a squeeze isolation. >> Yeah, that's why, you know, bodybuilders use it as a finisher for sure. >> Yeah, that's right. 100%. So, let's talk about why this is such a phenomenal exercise and why it should be in your routine. Well, first off, it's a fundamental human movement. So, there are certain human movements that you should train and strengthen because we consider them what what are what are considered fundamental. So, an easy one would be this like walking is fundamental, right? Humans need to walk. So, we of now we don't need to exercise it as much because we still do it uh all the time. >> Squatting, overhead pressing, >> squatting, overhead pressing, you know, being able to pull, being able to twist. These are called found uh foundational human movements. Well, being getting your arm, your your humorris from up here to down kind of crossbody is fundamental. Our ability to throw >> is one of the things that makes us unique as animals. Like there is no animal that throws more accurately >> uh than a human. In fact, a 5-year-old can throw with more accuracy than any uh primate. Uh, and that's one of the reasons why we became such successful hunters is we were able to throw with incredible power and accuracy. And if you look at the shoulder joint and how the the humorous moves in conjunction with the scapula and how everything moves together and all the muscles attach, you could see clearly that it's designed to be able to throw really effectively. Well, a crossbench pullover strengthens this movement and keeping it strong protects your shoulder joint and it makes your whole body strong. That's the thing about fundamental human movements. When you strengthen them, they tend to have all kinds of crazy carryover. Example is a squat, right? A leg press is great. Uh it's good exercise, but it doesn't have the same carryover to everyday life like a squat does. And that's because a squat is a fundamental human movement. Whereas a leg press, not so much. This is very true of the crossbench pull. >> You know, I love that you you compared it to that because one of the things that I've connected the dots personally with uh keeping uh pullovers in my in my routine uh what it's done for my overall shoulder health reminds me of what uh deep squatting has done for my overall hip health. >> Yes. >> Like just the like I talked about how long it took me to get a real deep squat. I had a lot of hip pain, a lot of low back pain. Once I had get got the mobility to be able to do that just maintaining a deep squat has kept my uh my hips and my low back really healthy. I'd say the same thing about my shoulder. The ability to get a good full range of motion pullovers has kept my shoulders in really good. And one of the things I always notice if I start to feel like I'm locking up there, I tend to go right back over there and get back into my routine. So huge value when it comes to that. >> Totally. Yeah. And especially to like uh you know the I want to say it's like an antidote to throwing but it's like basically you know being able to uh sustain you know that type of like forward movement uh with your upper body to then now we train it and we get that eccentric work and and control and like it it helps keep everything intact and strong. It does to counter it. It was so the a pullover. Now, I'll be clear, there are regressions to the pullover, but the pullover itself was always part of my arsenal for all my clients who had shoulder problems. So, you may look at a pullover and think, oh, you know, those that are familiar with it, oh, that's a bodybuilding movement, builds a lot of muscle. For shoulder mobility, it's magic. And here's why. When you have a client or when I would have a client that had shoulder problems, often times it was when they were trying to lift their arm up above their head, they'd only get it up to a certain point and then it would hurt and they weren't able to. >> But when they're resisting a weight that brings their arm back over their head, suddenly they have shoulder mobility. Suddenly the shoulder joint opens up and we're able to now move the humorous, move the upper arm >> into this position that they can't normally bring into position themselves. And this opened things up. This pullover movement was uh like eight out of 10 times was the only thing I had to do to fix people's shoulder. >> This is what they found. This is why like stretching the whole techniques have changed over the years is because like when you actually can tense the muscle up, you create more stability which then sends that signal to your central nervous system. We're we're safe. We're safe going further in this range of motion because now we have a stability support system in place. Totally. Oh, you we've you are you're forcing the body to like regain connectivity to that range of motion. I mean, I I remember that aha moment. Uh it wasn't that long ago. We had actually started Mind Pump when we had seen Brink >> and uh and we were doing 9090s and you know, we're trying to lift our back foot up. >> Oh, and then he lifted it for you. >> Yeah. And it was just like he lifted all the way up there and I went, >> "You can do it." >> Yeah. Like it's it's there and it's just like But I lost that ability. But if you if he held it and then I pushed against it like then all a sudden you would feel you getting reconnected there. That's what you're doing essentially with the weight in a pullover is you're letting the shoulder get in that place. You're because you're resisting against the weight now that everything's waking up in that area that's been dormant probably for such a long time. Especially for our advanced age clients that just haven't had to do this in so long the ability. >> So when you stand them up and you go, "Hey, lift your arm up to your point." They go like this and that's as far as they get. I lay them on the bench, grab a weight, and then I also think >> all the way back. >> All the way back. And then and they're resisting a weight. So now they're waking all that up. And man, it's such a It is It reminds me That's why I love that you you connected it to the squat because that's what it reminds me of. Like I had so much hip and low back pain. Uh and it was I'm when I'm fit, right? I'm fit. I'm ripped. I'm lean. But I was only squatting down to parallel and I couldn't get deeper than that because of my lack of ankle mobility and my hip mobility. Once I addressed those things, got into a deep squat, like it's I've never had those problems again, just simply by lifting and moderate weight, just being able to take that through full range of motion has changed everything. >> Totally. We also have a brand new program, maps, abs, and butt. So, this is a workout program for your whole body, but the emphasis is on your abs and on your butt. You want nice abs, you want a nice round butt, this is the program for you. It's 40% off. Plus, we'll throw them for free. Muscle mummy 15 or muscle mommy. So, you get another program for free. Plus, we'll throw in a butt building diet guide and a supplement guide. So, if you want all that plus the 40% off, go to maps abs and butt, use the code launch, and get yourself hooked up. Here comes the show. All right, real quick. If you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mypumpstore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to mypumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. It's also one of the very few isolation exercises because it is an isolate, it is a single joint movement, but it doesn't behave like a single joint movement. It actually builds muscle like a compound lift, which is wild. >> It pairs to like muscles that aren't normally paired together. >> That's a That's a great point. Like lats and triceps, >> whereas typically it's lats and biceps. Typically, when you're doing a back exercise, it's biceps that are helping with a with a pullover. It's triceps. >> But back to the point that I was making, isolation movements don't typically build muscle like compound lifts. Everybody knows that. >> You also get a little bit of chest activation. >> This one builds like a compound. Like if you if you gain 20 or 30 lbs on your dumbbell pullover, you build muscle like if you did a pull-up or you're doing a row. It's one of those like it's one of those isolation. I think this is one of the reasons why bodybuilders used to compete with this or compare this lift because it was a mass builder. It definitely doesn't act like in fact I'll put it in a lift or in a routine uh as an isolation lift but I know when I do it like I'm kind of getting the same muscle building effect I get from a compound lift which is really cool and in fact off the top of my head I can't think >> I'm like as you're talking right now I am trying to rack my brain like what other movement has these properties that like is considered a a single joint or so an isolation movement but yet has this like three and those are decent like you're talking about the lats, the chest, and the triceps. Like the three big opposing type of muscle. Like there's just not it's very unique. It is >> like what else is like would be something like that? I >> I don't know. And I don't know of too many strength training exercises that move from back to front in that way. Uh it's like I can't you really can't replace it. >> Well, and too what I like about it when you do the crossbench and you know, you're bridging that whole time. So you're really driving, you're working on leg drive, too, which I feel like it has, you know, some carryover to bench because of the fact that you're anchoring so hard by, you know, lighting up your legs. I'm, you know, going through this whole range of motion. >> You also get a great ab, too. Like it is very much soique. Yeah. Unique in in like it's it's compound type of benefits. >> Uh yet being in isolation, >> it's also great for thoracic mobility. So, all right. What is that? Right. So, think of somebody who's older who's got kind of that rounded upper back. I don't mean necessarily the shoulders are forward, but you notice the upper spine, the back. So, in an extreme case, be like a hump back, right? So, like you watch cartoons and they got like the scary bad guy with the humpback or whatever. You know, I I was at the gym the other day uh and I saw this uh in a couple elderly kind of older uh individuals where they, you know, they're coming in, they're working out, but they've got that really rounded kind of thoracic uh area that the thoracic part of the spine, which is that upper back area and improving mobility there would be moving it in the opposite direction. Now, we could always work on rows, try to pull the shoulders back, trying to bring the should the chest out. This is kind of what you would do. But here with a crossbench pullover, the resistance is making that thoracic mobility going that direction. It's moving the shoulders in a position, pushing the chest forward to improve that mobility. This was this was one of the big benefits I got from this exercise. I have a tendency to have a little bit of an over uh rounded thoracic area. And when I do pullovers, it's better. Why? The bench is pushing up on my thoracic part of my spine. I'm using that resistance. I'm expanding my rib cage, pulling back, and it stretches it and moves it in the opposite direction. >> Well, and and since you're in the corrective direction, too, one of the things again that's so great about this is how easily you can regress this. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's one of those movements where as a trainer, I could like I could put my hand at a play as far as I want them to go. Like here, let's just get there and then have them pause, connect there, you know, and then over weeks, we're getting deeper and deeper and further and further. And you could start really, really light. Right. I mean, I've started clients with like just a little light 10 lb dumbbell that they're doing and get work on that range of motion and connecting and then deeper and deeper. And so, you know, it's a really easy movement that as a coach, I can really regress and progress somebody really nicely over time without risking a a lot of injury, which is always a great go-to move when you're a coach. >> And it's and again, it's great for the lats. Like, you want to get that nice Vtaper in your lats. You want to stretch the lats, load them in a stretch position. Yeah. >> Uh, it's one of those exercise that does it. It's also good for ri cage expansion. Now, I'm going to be clear here. >> It's not going to give you a bigger rib cage. The reason why I'm saying that is in the 60s and 70s, >> bodybuilders used the dumbbell crossbench pullover as a way to give them a bigger rib cage. And you might be thinking like, why would they even want that? Well, back in those days, uh, bodybuilders, they used to like to show off their kind of side chest pose. And bodybuilders still do this today. that a side chest shot is a one of the uh kind of staple poses that you do as a bodybuilder. And when you do it, you want to stick your chest out. You're on the side. You're kind of flexing your bicep. But back in the 60s and 70s, they really would stick their chest out. And they used to all brag about who could put a glass of water on top of their upper chest. But you needed a big rib cage to do it. And it gave them that thickness from the side, right? So that you didn't have this flat rib cage. And they thought that the pullover made the rib cage bigger. Now, this is not what's happening. It's not giving you a bigger rib cage. You're not going to change necessarily how your rib cage looks, but what you are doing is stretching and strengthening all the muscles that connect the ribs to each other. And this is important everybody. If you've ever pulled out a rib, if you've ever done an exercise and you're like, "Oh, it feels like a rib is out or something happened there." What happened is you've pulled or tightened one of those intercostals or one of those muscles that connect the ribs together. Why is that important? Why would I want strong muscles or strong connections between? Well, first of all, they float. So, they attach to the spine. Then, they come around and nothing connects them together except for the muscles and connective tissue in between. And when that's strong and stable, it gives you better ability to rotate. It gives you better power, makes you more stable, but gives you more torque, gives you more more stable when you press overhead, when you press in front, deadlift, >> it protects you against impact. Uh, it's very important. Uh, and when those muscles are rigid and tight and not strong, your ability to do a lot of exercises goes down. And this is one of the only exercises that through the movement, you're expanding the rib cage and bringing it together, thus strengthening some of those muscles. So, >> I saw you did that in you had the story today and I saw you did uh your >> all my favorite old school >> exercises. Were you reading something or was that just on your mind? >> No, it was just on my mind. Today's my my uh day in the life thing or whatever and I was like, you know what? What are the lifts that you never see people do in the gym that are just so awesome? Um, and that was the first one that came to mind because some exercises I know why we don't see them. It's because they're really hard. Like a front squat. Like why doesn't anybody front squat? They suck. >> They're really really hard. But I pull over it's like you guys you got to do this. >> I just saw it was a trailer. I think it's barbell films but uh they're they're going to like it's like a short documentary that they're making of like 1920s lifters. >> No way. >> Yeah. Really? Which I thought would be rad. So hopefully they come out with that soon. But yeah, I saw this trailer. It was cool. They had all those uh you know oldtime lifters and that you know bodybuilders to to uh you know the performers. >> We should research who's behind it as far as like the director who thought to put together probably make for a good interview just to talk. Obviously if somebody put that together there's a reason why they put that together. >> And a lot of people don't know much about that era. >> That would be an interesting conversation. >> Yeah it was it was a cool era. >> What's interesting to me is that all those they they all had like regular jobs. Like they they all had hard jobs. They weren't performers. >> Yeah. You weren't making a ton of money >> and yet they had the time to go lift weights and >> and do that and look amazing and be real strong. It's pretty cool. >> Did they want Did they also care care about what they thought was building their rib cage too to exaggerate the vacuum pose too? Was that also >> the vacuum pose came because of the then it became about like how you looked. So it was small waist. >> Yeah. Like how So I mean like how dramatic of like a big rib cage, small tiny waist like Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's when they started doing that. That's funny. I got to talk about You brought me, you brought up the the day in the life and in there I did, you know, like a little segment where I talked about what I liked and didn't like about you guys. It's kind of funny. >> But I got to talk about being in the room with you when you negotiate, Adam. >> So yesterday, I just got to tell the audience this, dude. It is. >> So all puckers up. >> So So do you. Everybody does. It's the most >> He's like, "Don't everybody gets uncomfortable." >> Listen, you brought it up. Listen, like negotiations with Adam, like if you you either have to leave the room or you have to really focus on trying not to talk or >> it's so uncomfortable. True. >> Cuz you you feel like he's like going too hard and he lose. I'm going to see how I'm going to see how this lands. >> Where's he going with that? That's so hard, dude. It's so difficult to be in. >> I like it. >> But he pulls it out every time afterwards. I like it in the >> That went well in the process. >> I thought you lose that, dude. >> Where'd you get that from? Um, you know, I I think uh >> because it's definitely a skill, but it's also a talent for sure. >> Yeah. I I've done it a lot right at this point, right? I mean, almost 45 years old and I've I've had a lot of conversations like that. You what I'd say it really stems from is uh and I and I wish I remember like the moment that this unlocked for me, but uh and I I want to I want to attribute it to a Jack Welch book called Winning. And if I if I if I I hope I'm referencing the right book that I I got it from of just radical cander uh and how important that is in in business negotiating >> and uh you know just being so honest and when you really think about it it's really difficult to do that. There's a there's a part of our human nature that wants to >> hold back or appease the other person. And a lot of people like a lot of sales people uh are, you know, manipulating this and that. And the more I've learned to lean into just saying what's on my mind and what I believe to be true. Uh it comes off sometimes a little uh rough or brass. But what I what I have found in that process is at the end of the day uh even if people go back and forth and can be combative with me, they they tend to respect the conversation, the the honesty >> and and and sometimes I know I could like uh probably push too far and I and and I'll say that I'll just be like, "Listen, I just I'm being just direct with you >> and so or I'm just being straight with you." Like I could BS you and and so there's I've learned to even be like if someone gets really >> Yeah. cuz you have to be both. Cuz I was thinking about this yesterday cuz again yesterday we're in the room and you're negotiating and it just it's every time I'm in the room I'm always like my god. But I think you you have to you have to be both the best and worst person to negotiate against. I would say best because uh you're going to get you're going to get it straight out and you're not it's not like you're trying to rip anybody off. I've never heard you, in fact, I've heard you negotiate with partners and not push too hard because you're like, "We can't deliver." >> Like, we I'm only going to do what we can deliver. I've heard you say that many times. So, there's like a lot. So, that makes you the best. You're also the worst because somebody trying to get a little bit of what ain't going to happen. >> It's not going to happen with just not going to happen. And I think of what you're what you're saying is I think it's just the it's the um it's the just being really and I have a lot of conviction when I have am honest about something and I've also too I've done my homework and and my research. >> I was just going to say cuz you know what you what you're worth. It's not like you're just going in to get the best deal. >> Yeah. >> So that's why you're so confident. >> So yeah, a lot of like so Katrina and I because Katrina manages a lot of obviously our partners now and so I'm I'm not in the thick of it as much as I used to be when we when we first started. And so when she wants to bring me into a conversation uh and she be like, "Hey, I got a call set up for you. I want you to talk to so- and so from this this company we work with at this time and like I won't just go into that conversation and then then something like you saw yesterday play out." I'm like, "Oh, I need to know this. I want this. I want this. I want" and then I'll I'll study all the stuff and then I'll be like, "Okay, I feel I feel very confident about this. I think this is fair. Uh this is what I want." And then that's exactly what you're going to get from me is I'm just going to go straight for that and I'm not going to I'm not going to waver and I have I have conviction that I I believe it to be true and I just will will shoot it that way. And it it and it's not um I don't think it was natural. I think I've I've practiced that so much. I've practiced because it's not easy. There is a part of me um we talk about this with uh uh >> our journey of interviewing people. It's in my it's in my nature to want to be liked by people and friends like you know like I I think we all have that >> and so you know there's you there's a part of that you're you're wanting to do is like you like you don't want to feel rude or mean or you don't want to come off aggressive and so you internally you're wrestling with that but you know you need to be honest and truthful and so it's like I'll have a conversation sometimes I'm like you know what that wasn't fully honest like I >> I didn't say what I was I felt I was trying I was trying to appease that person or I was trying to be too friendly and it's just like gosh dang it. And it's and those are the ones that never go well if it doesn't go well. And so I would always evaluate afterwards and it's just like that's my fault. It's my fault because I wasn't truthful. I wasn't honest. I wasn't direct. And >> yeah, and like I said, I've had a lot of people uh afterwards will will say things like, "Hey, I want I thank thank you for being honest." >> Yeah. I think that the big a big part of it because on its face, I think someone would think that a good negotiator is just somebody that gets the best deal. And I don't think that's necessarily it. That's part of it. But I think the other part of it is uh that you can't get the best deal unless you lack integrity. But if you have integrity, which I think you need to be good in business for a long period of time, right? Lack of integrity might get you only so far, but then it's not going to get you so super far. But I think it's because you know what we're worth, but you also know what's gonna they're going to get and what's going to value them. And so you're not going to go like again I've heard you say to to I've heard you talk with us and say I'm actually not going to charge that much because we can't deliver. Yeah. >> So it's not like you're just trying to get the best deal but that's what makes you confident that makes you go >> Yeah. And I think and and I think in in making a deal uh it's >> so uncomfortable though. >> It it is uh I mean it can be uncomfortable even for me too cuz like I don't Yeah. I don't want >> you get excited there's element. There's a there's a rush and adrenaline to it for sure. Um, but a really good negotiated deal. Uh, >> both parties walk away and uh and and like maybe in the moment they don't feel happy because maybe the opposing person who's on the other side of it from with me is trying to, you know, weasle or get a deal. But if if I did my job really well, then they should be happy. Like they like they'll get what they deserve and and we'll get what we deserve and it's fair and that's a that's a really good deal. And and I and I pride ourselves or myself on going into a situation like that and and keeping a I want I want a a lifelong partner that we make and which is why if you've been listening to the show for a very long time, most of our partners have been with us for a very long time because >> I I I try and find what I think is very very fair. But you know, and I think what you guys get to see and where it can be uncomfortable is when you know the other side is trying to weasel or do that and you're just like, "Yeah, this is not going to go well for that person." because you're not going to >> That's most of it. It's just Yeah. Yeah. Waiting and listening to their reaction. >> Well, there's a lot of bluffing that happens. That's what's uncomfortable is you hear the bluffing from the other side, but you're not sure. >> Yeah. >> And so you're like, "Oh god, are we going to like what's going to happen? Are we going to lose this or whatever?" And Adam don't get he's like he's going and so I'm over here like >> sit in that uncomfortable silence. It's just >> Yeah. So I'm over here distracting. I'm going on Instagram. I feel like I'm going to see >> Well, that's probably the part that's fun is what you're calling a bluff is is fun. There's there's something about when you feel confident, you know, you've done enough research and and you got enough >> Well, one thing that I learned is when I'm in the room with someone who is who knows what they're doing, I will ne if I disagree, I will never jump in or speak out. There's a scene in The Godfather. >> Oh, yeah. There's a scene in The Godfather that illustrates it well when >> uh I think it's in the first Godfather where uh Marlon Brando's character, >> he's negotiating or talking to the to these other guys and they want to start selling drugs and they want >> uh the Corleomi family to jump in and they're offering all this money and uh you know the the the lead guy Marlon Brando's character is like he's saying no and his oldest son pipes up a little bit. Hey dad, but what about and he looks at his son, gives him a look. And so her son quiets down. After that, he looks at his son, he goes, "Never uh speak out against the family in front of other people." That's what ends up getting Marlon Brando's character shot >> is because the other people saw, "Oh, if we kill him, then the oldest son." That's right. Yeah. So it just illustrates that really that you did you was it the right book, Doug? >> Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's a long time ago. >> Wait, what was the quote? Don't ever take sides with anyone. What was that? >> Oh, yeah. Don't ever take sides with anyone against the Michael Cor. Yeah. I totally now you say that I'm like oh I remember that scene that's such a great that's such a great scene and that was it was right book yeah Doug >> yeah correct book yeah >> yeah Jack Welch >> Jack Welch Jack Welch winning right the arguing the lack of the honest communication and the biggest deal dirty little secret in business yeah >> all right I got some uh some cool studies on chiligit we haven't talked about them in a while >> or about uh the supplement chiligit or you know the uh the the gummies that organifi has which by the way chiligit's getting popular now although it's been used for a long time. >> It's everywhere. >> It's everywhere. But some of Shilage is not the real stuff that comes from >> or not palatable at all. >> Yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's another one. But it's not the real stuff. They'll make it in a lab. It's not the real stuff. Real chilleit prima is one of the best sources of real chille. And that's the one that Organifi uses. So they sourced it really well. But anyway, I looked up the studies on it. Um, and uh, it's, you know, it's pretty remarkable um, on on how well it works for certain things. So, it does raise testosterone pretty reliably in healthy middle-aged men. So, we talked about that bone mineral density in post-menopausal women with osteopenia. >> So, they actually gave it to women with osteopenesis before osteoporosis, postmenopausal, no changes uh, in their uh, lifestyle. So, they weren't having them lift weights or anything. and they saw a a an improvement in their osteopenia, >> then it's good for fatigue related strength and collagen breakdown. And then here's what I like, skeletal muscle gene expression. So check this out. They gave obese adults uh 250 milligrams twice a day for 8 weeks. And what they show was an upregulation of of a a cluster of extracellular matrix genes that support collagen connective tissue at the gene level. Uh, and it's like this this interesting strange compound that oozes uh out of the mountain, right? It's like out of a tree or or something. >> No, it's not a tree. It's old organic material that's been pressurized and break and broken down over thousands of years. >> That's so wild. I think I asked you this before and I was wrong cuz it's not it's not an adaptogen, but it kind of acts like one. >> It does. And it's used in arurvedic medicine. So arurvedic medicine use has used chille for a long time. So, it's one of those interesting >> I know what would you what category of would you fall if it's not an adaptogen but it has adaptogen like properties it's not a mushroom and doesn't have so >> you know I you probably could label it as an adaptogen you know maybe Doug look up on that uh see if >> it helps with stress right >> yeah see if in arurvedic medicine if they if they label it as an adaptogen I'm not sure if it's a classic >> uh adapt it is >> it is oh >> yeah and it does act that Okay. Yeah. Very good. >> I Well, I I listen to when you describe it and I'm like that sounds very Yeah, it sounds very much so like a traditional adaptogen. So, it is then. That's okay. Okay. >> I just saw a vin diagram that went viral on uh X >> and they labeled it the addiction economy. >> You guys, this is really bad. >> It is not good. I'll pull it up right now. So, uh, when it comes to addiction, typically men, uh, have more addiction issues, uh, than women. So, I don't know if you guys knew that or not. That's like a statistic. Okay. >> Sure. >> So, this is >> men have it more than men? >> No, men. Men tend to have addiction issues, of course. More. Okay. So, >> you you have I have theories on that. You have a guess why you would think that would be? >> Yeah. We might be more dopamine driven. I'm not sure. >> I mean, I would think it's because we're we hold more [ __ ] in. >> That may be it. That might be it. But wouldn't you? And so you you one of the things that women are better at than for sure than us is like sharing and and communicating with others which more coping. >> Yeah. And so it's a coping method. You would think for us is that we're holding it all in and so medicate with drugs, alcohol, things like that. That's a >> good theory. >> Yeah. I mean that would be my guess. >> I think I think Yeah. It says uh biological differences, social pressure, and behavioral tendencies. >> There you go. I mean that would fall under social pressures and behavioral >> tendencies. Well, so check this out. Okay. So these are what would be classified as addictive uh behaviors or qualities for certain things. So check this out. This is of this is young men. So this is uh how old are these men? Aged uh 18 to 29. So uh men 18 to 29. One out of every four men watch pornography daily. So they consider that addictive. Okay. Almost one in four. So almost one in four gamble daily. I didn't know that. I did not know gambling was that big of a deal course >> for young men. >> I'm sure that went up too. >> Oh, in young men it's crazy. It's like a high school problem. >> This is like a problem that like uh my buddy who's like was a principal and like they have problems with like all the kids that are doing it now. >> Okay. >> Uh >> you're supposed to be like 18 and older to be able to do it, but they there obviously there's >> regulating it though. >> Yeah. So majority of young men play video games daily. They consider that addictive kind of. So trip off this. This is where it gets crazy. So the ven diagram shows what percentage of men do all three daily? One in eight. One out of eight men between 15 to 29 watch porn, gamble, and game every game >> day. >> So all of them. >> All of them. >> Oh wow. >> On a daily basis. >> Porn gamble, >> bro. That's more than 10%. >> Wow. >> That's crazy. >> They do. What's Well, what's crazy is all of it. >> Yes. >> Like just one of it is already >> One of them is destructive, right? You're doing all three of them. That's very And I bet you if you looked at those young men, because if you're doing all three of those daily, you're probably not socializing at all. >> You're super isolated. >> You're probably have no sense of purpose cuz like how how much time do you have to have a sense of purpose when you're playing video games, gambling, or >> don't talk to girls, obviously. >> That's what I'm saying. >> So, and with that is probably a high rate, I would guess, of depression. >> Yeah. >> And anxiety. >> What do you think, Justin? You think it's part of uh the conspiracy theory that I sent over to you in the the social media one? I mean, sure. Is there a new one? >> Well, you brought this up, I think, a long time ago, that DARPA, like they've so was it Lifelog is what it used to be called. They had a program for >> um collecting data from individuals, >> the CIA. >> And so then it it weird. And they they fact checked it on there. We could fact check it as well. >> I mean, Doug should look it up. Life lifelog CIA program. Uh how long did it run and when did it shut down? Yeah, because it was literally the day after they shut it down, Facebook started become >> Oh, let me guess. Because we're already we're giving them more information for >> free. So, we need a corporate uh so so this can't be attached to the government now. >> Oh, >> so now we have to in the private sector and they also were alluding to the fact that maybe even Amazon uh was another one. >> Oh, I don't know. So, yeah. So, the theory >> this way they collect all the information they want. So the idea was get it get get document or basically get people to share all of their personal >> for free for free >> without without it without it you know and >> it's not going February 4th 2004 is when Facebook launched when did the when did lifelog >> February 4th 2004 >> what they're not even hiding it >> I mean >> what I mean that's way too I mean the fact he didn't even wait 24 hours >> I mean that's like literally somebody it was like a click of a button on the computer dog it was like let's in this one. We're opening this one. >> Wait, so look up life just lifelog. What is life log? >> So was it them collecting information? >> Uhhuh. >> And what are they what were they collecting? All the data that we would give on >> Yeah. Yeah. Just probably scan the internet. Oh, and looking for Yeah. >> problematic people. >> It was a 2003 research project by the US military designed to track and archive a person's entire daily existence into a massive digital day. Of course, you don't need that anymore because everybody does it themselves willingly. And Facebook also owns Instagram. So they've got Instagram, Facebook, >> and WhatsApp >> and WhatsApp that we are putting all this. >> Wow. >> So gez. So there we go. >> And then if Google because the part of the Google and Amazon were also attached to all this too. And it's like if you're if you got all of our search history, you've got all of our documents, pictures, tracking where we go every single day, the store, like >> we're all feeding into this like super computer >> every day. Yeah. Yeah. God, do you guys remember the movie uh X Machina? >> Yeah. >> And remember that robot and how like she studied she bas she gave it she basically told him she studied all of his searches, all the things so she could turn into like the perfect Yeah. >> person to manipulate him, >> right? Exactly. So it fit all his categories of his interest and Yeah. He'd fall in love with her. >> Oh god, that's crazy. >> Isn't that wild? Huh? >> That's crazy. That can't be That's got to be a crazy coincidence. I'm I mean >> I what's so crazy about that is like I mean I feel like >> it would be so brilliant of them to just wait 15 days to throw people >> going to lose that data, bro. You got to get all that data, you know? >> No, but I mean like to like at least show that it was I mean that's like just purely like we don't give a f. We're going to we're gonna do about >> we're turning this one off. We're turning this one right on, you know. Um the the the I mean it's all kind of scary like when you look at like how cuz when you're addicted to drugs and alcohol it's pretty obvious and everybody knows it's bad. I don't think there's anybody I don't think anybody would be like oh that's you know that's okay. But like porn, gambling, video games every single day. >> Mhm. >> Uh that's destructive. It is. It's destructive on you. And there's young men right now more than 10% >> of men in that age group are doing all three of them. every single day. So, they're stuck in their room. >> Do you think it I mean, I like this idea of of MySpace like coming back and not having algorithm to like dictate what you look at and scroll through and all that. I'm I'm not sure if people are going to buy into that, but like, you know, some kind of a social network that doesn't add in all this like bits of >> I'm super curious on how it's going to pan out. I'm I'm following it, too. I'm so >> People might not like it. They might not like it cuz it's not good. >> That's exactly what my theory is. I don't think I don't think I mean >> they say they want it but then they get it and they're like this sucks. >> It's like a brick phone, you know? Like >> I mean there's a part right uh that I think you even have we all have to admit that you know that you're you're getting fed stuff that you you're interested in, >> you know. So I mean I I have now purchased a lot of things. >> They've gotten way better. >> Yeah. That have been popped in my feed because it's something that I would like or want. And it's because I they've figured out, you know, I buy all the things I've liked and tracked and and been to. And so, sure, there's a part of me that goes like, "Oh, I'm totally being manipulated." But there's the other part of me is like, "Oh, I'm glad I found that thing." You know what I'm saying? Like, or that. And it could be found. And it could be innocent, too, right? Like it's not just like for like I bought a lot of stuff for my wife that is just like, "Oh, wow. That's a cool outfit. and I would have never found that or saw that or I didn't never heard of that brand or like you know and so because it's getting so it's like you know if that if the you shut the algorithm down and it's just purely like you know OG Facebook or OG MySpace where I'm connecting to my family friends it's like you probably >> it's interesting like I you know how it used to be really hard to find new music as well because like there's no real like one I heard somebody talking about this the other day I think it was um what's his name uh one of the Beatles the the main main singer from Paul. Not Paul John. John Lennon. Yeah. His son was talking about this. I know. I can't believe I forgot his name. But uh >> yeah, he was talking about like when MTV he used to hate it because it was like, you know, all this like pre-prescribed like pop, you know, music. And um but he's like there's no if you if you could pinpoint one like specific place where it's like well there's like a culture here you know there's like something that you follow it cuz then you you see like you get introduced to a lot of things and people then you see you know reflect at school at work and you know and he's like there's just like a multitude of cultures now >> it's like and so to to be able to just stumble across something is pretty rare that you're going to like and but now when I'm seeing bands like it's It's um actually interesting because you'll you'll see some bands that they'll just put out like one track and they they try to like, you know, emphasize the fact that they're introducing you to this sound like I just came up with this riff and then they're playing this riff and you find out this band's been around for like 20 years, you know, but it's like they're they're trying to like throw chum out there. Uh so people will just like it'll come up on their Facebook algorithm like, "Oh, that's interesting." And I I I've been introduced to about 10 or 12 new bands that way. Oh, cool. >> Yeah, it's so hard to >> unify us. And I'm sure that there's lots of cases you can argue why that it's so beneficial that we have all this diversity and different things and but you know I saw I was watching something that was highlighting like just like uh oh was a book that it's a book that I'm in right now the Bob Iger uh book uh Disney Walt Disney guy and talking about how you know um there was a time just what 30 30 40 years ago where you know we we were all watching the same >> channel at the same time like a show came on at 7:00 p.m. >> It was like the most popular show in the country. Everybody was watching. >> We were all talking about the same thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So then the next day at school or work, we were all talking about that because the only way you saw it was you had to catch it, which caused all of us to you like at the same time. And so man, so much uh easier to keep kind of everybody on the same page. Now everything's so >> well. Think about how like how fragment how different my wife is actually a pretty good stickler about this usually but >> my kids will want to watch something and they'll disagree because you know kids are kids. I want to watch this. I want to watch that. So the temptation is to be like okay we're going to give you 20 minutes of TV. You get to watch the TV and then you watch an iPad. And she goes no you're going to pick something and have to watch it together. It's very different experience >> to sit in the same room and watch together versus all of us doing our own thing. It's a very different so much less social. >> Oh, it was such an unlock for me to uh for when we cuz it's now been Where are we at? >> I I mean, you could probably go back on the podcast when I first announced that we completely removed the iPad from Max. We're coming up on a couple years now. >> And uh Yeah, but he gets to watch TV. We totally let uh but we watch as a family. That's right. >> Yeah, it's it's on. And it is so different. In fact, as a being a seven-year-old, he rarely sits through anything all the way through. He normally is watching and then he's playing with his Legos or he's wrestling with me on the couch or it's just like it is way different. It is nothing like uh when we allowed an iPad and he could watch a cartoon on there because he was locked. I mean, it was all consuming. >> And that was the the big switch for me when I when I realized that when he could be in the on the couch next to me and I was allowing him to watch a cartoon and then I would try and engage him and he like he almost like couldn't hear me until I put my face in front of him and was like, "Hey." >> And then it and it was so it was you could tell it was innocent. Wasn't like he was being rude or like he was just locked in. I'm like, "Wow, that's like this is got we got this got to go." Now you can put but putting it up there huge difference. >> Huge difference. You know, as we were talking earlier about this addiction economy with young men, which was really alarming, like I said, that ven diagram went viral. I'm like, what what would be the solution? Like just clear-cut solution because you could say, turn those things off, don't do it, whatever. But people don't operate that way. Usually, it's like do this rather than just don't do that, >> right? >> And young men in general, >> you know, therapy uh can be valuable, but therapy works better uh with women typically than men. Um, and it's just we're wired a little bit. >> Not only that, I don't think that's the the solve the >> No, but my point with that is like just therapizing or talking about things uh doesn't work as not that it's bad or that it doesn't work, but men the data shows us they tend to be better with like a goal like like do this instead of like let's talk about this and talk about >> application. Here's how you're going to fix it. >> And I'm thinking I was like what could young men do? And I'll tell you I'll give you the I'll give you the prescription. If you're listening, you're a young guy and you feel lonely and you're stuck in this pattern. Try this. Lift weights. go to church and volunteer. If you do those three things right there and you do them consistently, even if you don't believe in them, even if you think it's crazy, if you just did those three, lifting weights, going to church, and volunteering a little bit, that would change so much for you. I'll tell you, so much for I'll tell you something else that I So, um I shared this on my story actually just last night or the night before. So, one of the things I've been trying to practice with, uh so I've been I've been doing the sauna every single night and many times I'm by myself. Sometimes Katrina's in there with me, but most times I'm by myself and and since I'm in a sauna, no tech, I'm in there for 20 plus minutes. Anyways, I'm like, you know what? I want to try and be consistent with gratitude practices. And I'll the reason why that was sparked was I found myself, you know, shopping looking for things that I don't need and uh and desiring more stuff. >> That's good self-awareness. So, you're like, I need to be more grateful and stuff. >> Yes. Exactly. And and so I'm like, what am I what am I doing? You know what I'm saying? like uh like I have I have when I when I really do an evaluation of my life, I have the life I I have a better life than I dreamt of as a kid. What do I need more? Why I don't? So, so anyway, so I'm I practice and then then what I wanted to do while I was doing this and I and I shared this in my story in the notes of like I didn't want to be so generic of I'm I'm grateful for my wife. If I'm grateful for my like like I what I wanted to look into was things either people or things that I would have say when I was 16 years old been like man be so amazing. >> So I'll give you so funny right? Uh you've noticed have you noticed me using the sim like crazy? This came from that right? >> Oh cuz you're like man if I if I had that when I was 16 I would lost my mind. Oh, if you if if 16-year-old me said I had the baddest simulator race car simulator at his work and you like he would and I oh he would just be so disappointed in me. Right. So, I'm sitting in there and I and so what I try and do is re and and so what I shared is like what it what it ends up sparking is like this thing that I that that's sitting on a shelf somewhere collecting dust or maybe a thing that I haven't taken care of and appreciated because I've got two or three of it now or what and and so I think what we what's happened to to this and bringing this full circle to what you're talking about is that a lot of men we have we're such a consumer we have so much access we have so much stuff that we've lost appreciation for a lot of great things in our life >> and we've defaulted to these addictive mind-numbing things when you may not even have to go out and go that active. It's like maybe just revisit some of the things that you thought of years ago you really wanted to do or have and you already have it >> and maybe go show some appreciation towards it. And so I that this is just me sharing personally what I've noticed like Yeah. And another thing to share like you know I was car shopping right as if I need that and and actually what it sparked up is like you know I've like I uh I love them being I actually enjoy the process of cleaning them and detailing them. It's like, man, I had two or three of them that weren't even detailed and clean and it's like, you know what, like I'm going to spend the day doing that and just so yeah, there's like it's unlocked some things for me that and of course while I'm doing all those things, I'm not >> doing I had such a great moment with with Jessica recently because um there's there there's definitely times when she's so like a kid, so grateful and joyful over things that I'm like like we were we went car shopping uh for her and there were two options of SUVs and one was the nicer, more expensive one. Okay. And it was the one I thought for sure she would want. So I was kind of pushing her in that direction and we were talking and she goes, "No, actually I want this other one." I'm like, I thought she wanted it because it was the cheaper one. She's like, "No, that's the one I like." So like, "Oh, okay." And so I get it and you should see her with this car. It's not like it's the most extravagant whatever car, >> but she's like, "I want to do a photo shoot with it." I'm like, "What? I want to go park it somewhere and take photos of it. She's so like grateful and just Katrina's like that. >> I tell you what, as a husband, you know, if you provide for your wife and then you do something and then you see that that it just makes me want to go, you know, work twice as hard. >> So, obviously, uh you you know, you we talk about my stuff like so for a lot of my early years, I attracted a lot of other girls that like liked a lot of the material stuff that I did. I just to echo what you're saying um I love that trait about Katrina and I actually >> it's such a great thing to have >> and I I would have if you would have asked me when I was younger I would have thought that I would have married or been with someone that was more like me. What I have found through dating and everything and where I'm at now in my life is like it actually makes the the the buying things for her and doing stuff way more enjoyable for me because she appreciates such little things. She doesn't need the most expensive thing or she doesn't care about name brand. It's like she likes what she likes and she's so appreciative of it. So, it also is way more fulfilling and I get way more joy for for doing it. So, I could totally relate >> to like how awesome that is to have a partner. >> Yeah. She's like a little kid. It's so funny. >> It's Well, it's interesting you talk about like kind of getting back to like hands-on and, you know, like looking at those types of things. What I used to enjoy a lot was like building things with my dad and like even when we first started the podcast, I was like at our my first house and we were like building ramps together and the kids were really little. Like just that entire process was like >> so fun for me. So, like it's cool cuz school kind of like introduces that again and so like Everett has this like little project and he's like he always he just comes up with ideas I get really excited about, you know, and it's like I'm like, "Oh man, but I'm like I don't want to like step in and like do the whole thing for him, you know, cuz I'm just like, "Oh, it's so cool. It's fun." Uh, so him and his buddies like came up with this idea like they have um he has a couple classes where they allow these like skateboard little finger skateboards. Yeah. So, like, you know, back in the day, they'd had like the fidget spinners, like some some teachers were cool about, you know, you having because it's like, dude, I mean, it's so boring. You're sitting there. So, he has a couple teachers that are cool about that. So, he thought as his idea, he's supposed to come up with a project to pitch and kind of sell to his uh classmates of like, you know, maybe this is something that they would actually buy. And so he's he's creating like this little skate park >> uh and you know fingerboards and so uh so you know I was kind of with him planning he did most of the planning. He's done all that stuff and anyway we were starting to kind of you know put stuff together and like you know poor Courtney is like you know she's completely the opposite brain of that. It has to be all already completely uh you know there has to be a blueprint for it. there has to be like instructions like you know like we always say it's kind of funny but it's like she's rule follower I'm not you know it's like we're completely opposite >> you're an entrepreneur. >> Yeah. And so yeah and I love projects and so >> anyway so she she had to take them cuz I was still coming home from work um to go and went went to this like craft shop you know and I was like I want to take them Home Depot but you know it's all good. Uh and came up back with like materials and I'm like this isn't going to work. this is going to fall apart and like it's not even good. So anyway, we start kind of going through it and I'm like, you know what, my dad is like an amazing like wood craftsman. Like he he literally was going to be a wood shop teacher back in the day. He makes like cabinetry, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like I want him to learn like that skill like you know because he's already shown interest in projects. So I brought him over there and it was great just I took pictures. I'm like watching from afar him teaching him like every little part of the process, how to like plan it out, how to measure properly, how to like use the table saw, how to do this, that. We walk out of there and he's got this like little ramp he made and it's so sick, dude. And so anyway, like I go online, I'm like geeking out on this and they have like little uh railings like our coach Etsy, you know. So I'm like going to go back and like little tiny like bolts and drills and I'm going to be doing all that for him. But >> uh yeah, it just it looks cool. >> Is it a project that you, your dad, and your son are going? >> Me, my dad, and my son. Yeah. >> Wow. That's so great. >> It's a cool like >> three generations. >> Yeah. Generations. >> Did you guys see the Did you see the clip? Uh, speaking of like woodworking and like that type of job, did you see the clip I sent you guys about electricians? >> No. >> Oh, did you guys pull that up? It's I sent it to the uh Mind Pump, the the three of the four of us that >> Yeah, I know. We know. >> Text. Thank you. Um, it's it was an interview Sean Ryan did with I don't know who it was. I I thought it was a guy from Dirty Jobs at first, but I think it's somebody else. >> Micro. >> I thought it was him, but I think it's somebody else. Um he was breaking down like how behind we are on electricians. He was giving examples of like a couple electricians that he was just with like that prior week that are all like young like early 20s making like 250 a year and they had they had been poached three times in the last year from from other just >> what a great career to get into right now. Oh god. Yeah. Supposedly we're like uh like hundred thousand something like uh if Doug can pull it up the post he talks about. >> There it is right there. >> Yeah. The trades are in such high demand. >> That's not micro, right? It looked like it. >> Oh, it is him. Okay. Yeah. Okay. >> And he's he's a big advocate for the trades and >> you know how school just like it's so weird that like we were so pushed into these >> and they were institutions and now Yeah. completely. I have friends that work I have friends that work in the space that >> so there's there's two replacements for every five retirements >> and so it's just >> we need 400,000 more electricians >> and and it's growing by the minute because for every five that retire >> because of the data centers and stuff that's what he's talking about huge he's like the data centers are the the the demand for it is so high that we we were under by 400,000 and for every five retired electricians we have two replacing it and so >> with AI with the AI I explosion. This is going to be a very highpaying job with low supply. They >> already That's demand. >> That's the point he's making is like it's they're already you got young early electricians in their 20s making 250 a year getting poached three times in a year. >> And how what is the kind of education it requires to become an electrician? So you're out of high school, you want to be an electrician. Do you just go >> Oh, you have to go through a um a course that's I think it's at least 18 months or longer. >> That's what I'm So I'm wondering what does that look like to be an electrician? So, you want to start working as one. I'm out of pocket. I'm assuming there's there's a uh apprenticeship or something. >> Yeah. Apprenticeship and then you work your way up to tradesmen, I think. Journeyman. >> Yeah. So, it's like you're probably Let's see. Oh, what does that say there, Doug? >> Uh, high school diploma. Cool. >> So, four to five year paid apprenticeship. >> Paid. >> Yeah. >> Versus going to college and paying for Exactly. Wow. >> So, you get paid the whole time and then you come out and you make a crap ton of money. I also thought there was like a like a a a trade school. Is there a trade? Is there like like a two-year >> 6 months to two years? >> Okay. I was close. >> Would would you need that or would you would the apprenticeship cover it? Apprenticeship usually would >> I think you get I get I think you get there faster. I think again speaking out of turn here. I think that if you go through the the trade school, you get through that journeyman process faster. I think so. But they say a non-union contractor apprenticeship is the standard most valued route. >> Most valued? >> Yeah. So it's up roughly 2,000 hours of paid on the job training. >> Yeah. >> What is that? How many how long? 2,000 hours would be >> that's per year. Yeah. Uh I mean that's probably 40 hours weeks for a year. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> 52 weeks. 40 hours. That's around >> as far as blue collar is concerned. Uh because that's considered bluecollar. Is it like a really hard rough job or is it is it is it >> physically demanding for sure? >> It's very physically demanding. >> I I've never worked with electricians. My dad did everything but that. >> Oh yeah. I would say plumbing is probably Yeah. more difficulty. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Just because of Yeah. the the kind of tight places and underneath the house and >> um but yeah, I mean I don't it's definitely physically demanding for sure. >> Okay. >> Well, you know, hey, here's the deal. like fellas uh I know because back in the you know what they used to do they used to tell guys this was our generation you don't want to go work that kind of hard work you want to sit at a desk actually you don't >> that sucks I think you're better off moving >> like go out and move dude you're active all day long instead of like sitting >> well and I mean part of that was also because as a engineer you can make a lot more money right as a computer engineer you can make a ton more money but where where we're heading is electricians are going to be up there in pay especially when you compare it to computer engineers because AI is going to go take their jobs writing code. >> So how true okay and this is conspiracy so just brace yourself. Um >> yeah so no I I AI the data centers like so how how true is it how much water they actually need because I've heard there's like >> to cool them >> there's I heard there's a bit of a conspiracy with that like they don't need that much water >> really. Yeah. >> I don't know. I just I just >> I thought that was the reason why Elon's trying to put them in space. >> Well, putting them in space uh covers uh two things. Power because they they direct solar 247 and then second is cooling because it doesn't need uh to take away power for cooling. >> Super cool. >> He was talking about he was just on an interview and he said we are what we are running head first based off what Doug just 300,000 to 5 million gallons of water per day. >> That's what it needs >> for a large data center. >> For sure. >> That's insane. >> Yeah. So Midside uses about as much as a thousand households. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He would >> be cool if we can use that cuz once you use the water to cool that I'm assuming the water becomes warm right from that gives you transferred to to warm all the pools in the United States. >> That's a brilliant idea. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. He was talking about how the problem we're going to run into is power. It's not processing. It's not It's power. We're going to run into a power problem. We're not going to have enough power. Uh which is, you know, why SpaceX probably is going to do so well. Yeah. So hopefully my shares >> right now they're up and down. >> Betting on it, I guess. >> But I'm betting on that for the next year. >> I mean, I I'm not betting against you. I'm going to I'm going to join you, but I'm just joining you in December. That's my That's my decision. >> Yeah. I mean, based off of what I saw, I listen uh the uh behaviors around people I think sometimes are almost more important than picking the stock, right? So like pick the leader. >> Yeah. Exactly. Right. And so I think that when the the December is when the largest percentage of people who have shares in SpaceX will have the ability to cash out >> and because it they're going to make so much money. >> But most the shares are owned by him and he ain't selling out. >> No. No. Sure. Sure. But there's enough that it's going to dip. >> Yeah. Should >> it's going to dip. And so, you know, the question becomes, does it climb enough uh right now between now and December that the dip is still higher than the way it opened or I think it's going to bounce up and down all the way till December, then we'll see a little dip and then we'll see a run jump. Yeah. Now, I could be totally wrong. Don't take my stock advice. I've been wrong more often than not. So, I'm warning you. >> Don't take our advice on anything other than fitness. We're just having just a couple idiots talking on a podcast. You know what I'm saying? For what it is. I got some some cool data from Caldera Lab on their eye serum. I know Doug, you use uh the eye serum. >> I do on a daily basis. Yes, >> on a daily basis. And so this one is good for Okay, so check out what they they did a 4W week clinical study on the eye serum. 78% saw less visible dark circles. I did not know the eye serum was good for dark circles under the eyes. >> Oh, it brings the inflammation down like right away. >> 75% less puffiness. 87% uh the under eyes appeared >> smoother. >> You don't have to do the Chris Angel eye makeup anymore. >> Dang, dude. >> You know, it's got peptides in there, stem cell extracts, and it won best eye serum in the manual grooming awards. You know, I got to use this one more. Yeah, I got to use this one more. I don't use it uh enough. >> So, I you put on night, Doug, or when you wake up? >> Uh morning and night, personally. So, I have a tendency towards really puffy eyes. Yeah. Um, and so I'm I'm doing whatever I can to to minimize that. He >> does everything. He does all the face stuff. >> I do it all. >> When you get old, I think this when you get older, your eyes get a little >> Well, I know. So I So I keep I have the whole I have all their stuff. It's right on my sink, but I I talk about the the the three that I use most consistently. The eye serum is not one I use consistently, but it is one I will use when I have like a poor night's sleep and I have like that that eye puffiness because I I've seen like I can see visible difference like like immediately. >> Oh, cool. So, I keep it there and it's just like if I look if I'm brushing my teeth in the morning, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I look like shit." I'm like, >> then I'll then I'll do it and I notice it. So, yeah. No, it works. >> You You mentioned the eye like what eyeliner or whatever. Yeah. There's one time I did that cuz I dressed up as a vampire. Yeah. >> And I did the eyeliner or whatever. >> I bet you like went crazy. >> And I'm I thought I thought I looked cool. >> You like I look like Adam. stupid. >> Looks like anybody I can't even talk [ __ ] cuz like you know anybody who's ever even been in a band before probably done that. >> Yeah, your rock your rock genre bro's guilty that hold. Did you Did you ever I don't remember if I did dog. You did >> but probably. Shut up. Maybe Hey, you know clearly but I don't remember before in your life. >> I don't remember doing it. >> I can't remember putting mascara on. Maybe I did. Maybe. Please cover the basis. >> Yeah, pause. Maybe. >> No, I know for sure cuz my cousin used to live with us. She was like four years older than me. She She caught me a couple times like put makeup on me, dude. And I was like, >> she put it on. >> I was a victim. I was a victim. >> I saw some old Halloween pictures. I forgot to tell you guys about this. My mom sends it to the group. Uh, and it was a picture of me and my siblings for Halloween. So, this was probably 1989, probably maybe 1990. So, it's a long time ago. Okay. I was dressed as a woman, my sister was dressed as a man, and my brother was dressed as a woman. >> This was a Halloween costume back then. >> That was a That was a popular thing to do. >> It was a popular like, "What are you going to dress up? I'm going to be a girl." >> You don't do that now. You cannot. >> One of my best friends is a girl like she dressed up as like a hobo like was >> Oh, yeah. You remember that? >> Oh, that was super common. That was super common in our when we were younger. >> You can't dress up. What do you guys think? >> A man was so so incensive. >> Hey, bro. That was so common. That was hella common. Dude, >> that was a '90s costume. That was a '90s costume all the time. >> Super common. >> Super common. What? >> Now everybody dresses [ __ ] you know? It's like a huge difference. >> Wait, hold on. Can you even say hobo? You can't. Hobo's insensitive. >> You can say it, but I don't know. >> I've been saying bomb. >> It's like an old word now. Nobody uses it. That's messed up. >> What What is it? What a What's the It is uh uh not You can't even say homeless. It's uh >> unhoused. >> Unhoused is the >> Why do we keep changing words? >> So dumb. Hey, what would you guys said? You brought up Halloween costumes. What do you think was your best Halloween costume you ever did? >> Oh god. >> Oh, you know what? Mine was as an adult. I was I was 18. I was a personal trainer. I just became a personal trainer. And me and my buddy dressed up as Hansen and France. Remember Hans and France? Yeah. And everybody loved it. That's why I was one of my best. But >> Sure. >> And then I had a costume when I was a kid. My mom used to make my costumes when I was little cuz we didn't have the money to buy them. >> Same. >> So back in those days in the 80s, >> if you bought a costume, it was plastic. They didn't have nice Now you have nice costumes for kids, >> but when you were a kid, you went to the grocery store and it was literally a plastic apron that you would wear and a plastic mask that would just you would sweat a rubber band holding >> a rubber band. So my mom made me a costume. She made me a robot and she took boxes and covered them in foil and put them on me. Sick. >> So that's what was yours? What was yours? >> Yeah. So before Stranger Things like you know like I I was a Ghostbuster with my friend and and same thing my mom made the whole costume. So I had like a vacuum hose that went down to like connect to this like huge shoe box with like a a flashlight was my like >> Oh, that's cool. But I mean that wasn't my f that was like cool for for that time. But like it's funny because my f my personal favorite one was you know Johnny from Karate Kid. But then but then they got their own series and everybody's like oh yeah you know but when I first did it it was like everybody loved you know uh >> Daniel. >> Daniel >> nobody was Johnny. >> Nobody was the first house you wore that to or did you wear that before? >> I wore it before. Yeah. One time before. >> You recycled that a few times then? >> I have probably about four or five times. I was going to say I thought I thought my house I thought my house party was the first time you ever wore it cuz I remember came in I was like oh that's awesome that was awesome back then cuz that was a long time that was >> 20 years ago >> I got to say ultimate warrior for you right >> you know uh >> I saw that picture that that was >> I've had some good ones bro I did slash I was pretty I was pretty >> this is an adult >> Oh yeah I wasn't like my kid >> when you were a kid what were you I mean I I can't even remember a lot of my kid costumes they weren't very good yeah I got into Halloween later so my kid costumes I can't even the furthest one back. I remember I was a devil my mom dressed me up as one time, but I don't Yeah, I don't remember. >> Do you remember how dangerous like Well, considered today by today's standards, we did risky things as kids. When I was a kid, we would get a we would get a pillow sack. That's what we used to put our our candy and we'd be gone forever. >> Oh, yeah. >> Forever. Walking all over the place all like miles. And we come home >> when we were done with a pillow sack full of candy. And there were no limits. My mom wasn't like, "Eat five and then save the rest. Yeah. >> We'd go in our room and just eat until we got diabetes. >> I think I think Doug's uncle Billy was one of the best. >> Baby Billy. >> Yeah, baby Billy. >> When you were a kid, what was Halloween like, Doug? >> Well, uh, yeah. So, very simil similar if you got the plastic costume if you want to be Batman or whatever. Um, but I mostly made up my own costumes like pirates and other things like that. Um, but one of my favorite ones after that as I got a little older was Indiana Jones. >> Oh, >> yeah. I had the whole the whole thing. I had the hat. >> Better than Baby Billy. >> Um, I mean, I had everything. I had a bull whip. I had the whole nine yards. >> I thought Baby Billy was >> But Baby Billy was a unique very unique. >> Well, not it was unique. And also, I think what makes a great costume is like when it like you you looked the part like you like like there's no like like one of the best is like when you're like, "Oh my god, that's a charact" and it's a unique character, right? So, it's not like a Batman, Superman. That's like kind of generic, but it's like >> you're like his stunt double. >> Exactly. A character you're like, "Oh my god, that is so >> Some of the best costumes are when couples dress together and it goes together." >> I did peanut butter and jelly with a a girlfriend one time. >> Did you? >> You know what I saw? Which which I've seen now since. >> Was it jelly first? You know what I saw a long time ago, which now I've seen done before, but a long time ago, it was probably I want to say in the late '9s, >> a boyfriend and girlfriend dressed up as a plug and an outlet. >> Yeah, I've seen that. >> Yeah. And they plug in and turn on, which was like brilliant. Also, I've >> seen all kinds of I've seen all kinds of Yeah, those are those are those are good like that. But yeah, I think I think Doug was one of one of my favorites whenever where you see somebody like Yeah. >> See, now you see it like more common. She has two plugs. What's going on? >> Thanks. Thanks, Justin. We'll just stop there. Element is the best electrolyte powder you'll find anywhere. First off, no sugar and no artificial sweetener, so it's sweetened naturally and again, no calories. It also has 1,000 milligs of sodium per serving. Why so much sodium? Here's why. If you need electrolytes, if you're somebody that needs electrolytes, let's say you work out a lot or you eat a diet that is whole foodbased or especially if you eat a low carb diet or especially if you like to fast, it's the sodium that makes the biggest difference. Potassium, magnesium, also important, but it's the sodium that prevents muscle cramps and headaches. It's what helps with sleep. It's what helps with fatigue. It gives you athletic performance. It's also what helps you get that pump when you strength train. That's why it's got that much sodium. Element is the one that has it and it's the best one. It's the one we work with. So, if you're interested, you can go through our link, get a free sample pack of their most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase. Go to drinklement.com/mindpump. Here comes the show. This segment of the podcast is brought to you by Mind Pump Fitness Coaching. This is the number one course that teaches trainers and coaches how to build sustainable sixf figureure plus businesses and careers in fitness. Look, it's roundt based. So you can hear Adam, Justin, and myself teaching you how to build a better business, get more leads, close more deals, close bigger deals, and be more effective trainers. By the way, our course is nationally recognized. In fact, it gives you 1.9 CEUs with or for your NASM certification. Find out more at mindpunfitnesscoaching.com. >> Our first caller is Jason from California. >> What's up, Jason? >> Man. >> Hey, guys. Uh, crazy to be here. Uh, my name is Jason. As we just said, I am uh 37 years old. I am a firefighter paramedic here in Southern California. And the reason for my call is I've had some major life changes recently. Uh but before that, uh I've been a fitness fanatic for a long time. I love strength training. I love weightlifting. Um uh my numbers before my accident were like I was able to squat 385, uh deadlift 315, uh bench 285. So they weren't crazy, but they were good. I was proud of it. Um but since then, about 2 and a half months ago, I was in a major car accident. uh total my car. I have a broken left clavicle, a right 10th rib, a broken C7 T678, a uh torn, uh PCL, and MCL on my left knee. So, uh with all that, I have obviously been able to not work out as I want to. Um and, uh I'm looking for advice on what I can do, what I shouldn't do. I am pre-surgery. Um, I am scheduled to have surgery probably in the next month or so. So, I'm doing a prehab with PT, but that's focused solely on my leg. Um, so I want to know should I be doing anything upper body? Can I be doing anything about upper body? And what shouldn't I do? >> Were you hit by a semi? >> Yeah. That was a bad accident. >> Crash. >> I ran through a wall. >> Holy cow. >> [ __ ] Really? >> Hey, man. Thank god you Thank God you're still here, brother. And so, all right. Tell me about So, the surgery's for the uh for the knee. Yes, PCL uh reconstruction I believe we're going to do. I have a follow-up appointment with my uh surgeon next week. Okay. >> Uh where we're going to discuss that, but that is what it should be. And then I'm going to be nonweight bearing for 4 to 6 weeks. Um and then I won't be able to return to work for 9 to 12 months after that. I'm off work now, but I'm going to be off for a very long time. >> Got it. And are you just at just this, you know, side note, you're you're working with someone who's going to do like more of an athletic uh procedure because there are ways to repair a knee that is like average person and then like athletes. Have you had that discussion? Is that uh >> Yeah, he's the former like orthos surgeon for the Lakers. >> Oh, you're good. >> Oh, nice. And then with the the C7, T6, T7, like uh anything at Did anything have to get done there? Are they healed? What does that look like? >> No, there's going to be no surgery with that. Uh the only surgery that I'm going to have is for the knee. Uh the clavicle is healing itself, the the spine is healing itself. They were kind of like micro fractures. Um, but like still when I like lay down and try to do leg lifts, I can feel it on my like mid spine basically. So, it's still healing. So, I'm trying to be very cautious. I don't want to hinder my progress, but I want to promote my progress essentially. And I love working out. I love strength training. And it's been like I go through like depression stuff with everything. Uh, but like particularly being off work and not being able to work out, which was a huge mental like relief for me. >> Yeah. No, dude. This is a tough one to answer because of all of the injuries and because it's only two months out. >> Yeah. You're so close to surgery, >> you know. But you do have a history of strength training. Uh and and you you kind of know what your body should feel like, what good pain feels like, what bad pain kind of feels like. So without me actually training you, because if we were in person and I >> I trained you, I would watch you >> move and then that would help me dictate >> those Yeah. limitations. >> That would help me dictate what to do, you know, with you each time. Um, so the best advice I can give you, Jason, is you you got to go real easy. >> You focus on the basics and you're not going in for a workout. >> You're going in for stability and range of motion, >> stimulus. >> So, an example of that would be like, um, you know, I'm doing a row and oh boy, like I got to stop right here because I feel like if I go a little further, it feels unstable. So, now what you're going to do is you're going to play with that range of motion. That's the that's the way that you're going to get stronger. not adding weight. >> Yeah. >> To the bar or to the cable. >> Can I ask you this since you mentioned Rose? Um, is the 10th rib attached to the lap? >> Ooh, that's a good question. We need to look that up >> because that is still healing. Like when I take a deep breath, I still feel it even two and a half months out. >> Okay. That could be intercostal uh that you might be feeling, but I'm not sure if it's attached to the Lat. We'll look that up and and see if that's the case. >> Nonetheless, wondering that. >> Yeah. Nonetheless, uh I what I would do if I were you is I would try uh an exercise and I'd see how it felt. And if and like I said, because you have extensive history of strength training, you know what it feels like when there's good pain. >> You also know when something feels wrong. >> And so what you're going to do is you're going to play within that >> gradually that threshold. And honestly, like isometric holding positions is probably your >> safest most effective bet in terms of like preserving muscle. Yeah. >> Uh and and still being able to get >> stimulus. Let's use that example, right? So the 10th rib does connect there, right? So it is connected. >> It's the nth through 12th ribs. >> So let's let's say uh so obviously that's that would be high risk to do like some barbell rows. But what but can you take your arms and create that that row right with your arms and then create an isometric in that position? like this is a great So I my my rule of thumb with you if I was training would be always default to isometric and tempo as the way to progress intensity not more weight more reps. So it's like hey I can see I know that that that's a a high risk area so I don't want to go barbell row but I can I do this with my arms. Okay, I could do that and squeeze flex and squeeze and make that like yeah that feels okay. >> Then you find your limit that way safer. And then maybe I grab a really light row and then I row and then again that still feels good. I'm going to intensify that squeeze like I'm going to do that instead of just keep adding weight all the time which is what we tend to do. >> Bands are great too to really like limit a lot of the impact. So, you know, that's something like physical therapy, they use that all the time, but it's really just, you know, gradually getting in position, you know, intensifying it with tension, uh, holding it and and just like feeling your way through it so you don't like exceed that, uh, threshold. >> Yeah. So, here's a couple things to consider, which I I don't need to tell you, but just kind of bring them again to the surface. Uh, you're you're two months out. >> Yeah. >> Uh, for the from those injuries. So, uh, that's a strong consideration. >> Yeah. >> You mentioned depression. Okay, that's tough. In fact, that would be the number one thing that I would focus on. I would not focus on building muscle and strength and improving performance. I would focus on movement to make me feel better. >> Yeah. >> And so it it could also look like more general movement and less specific. I don't know how you feel about uh doing movement in a swimming pool. Uh but it's one of the best ways to exercise when you're healing from something just because of the support and the buoyancy, >> slow impact, >> right? So the anti-depressant effects from exercise, there's lots of reasons why it helps us feel better, but one of them is just movement. And so it's really depressing to not be able to move. So if you can get in a pool and kind of exercise vigorously in there because it feels relatively safe, that would be a great way to help you feel better. And that could be a daily thing. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately, with that, I can't do to my clavicle and my knee is super unstable. like the the side to side motion, any any instability, like if I'm not on a flat surface, it just like knocks and comes out of place. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, unfortunately, I've tried that, but it's a no-go. And then, uh, Adam referring to what you were saying about like, you know, the isometrics and that hold. So, I to talk more on that, I am not doing anything left arm. Um, and that leads me to another question. I don't know if I asked like should I be doing things with just my right arm? Like my workout routine right now is just like I'll do one exercise per body part um every day or so when I can and I'll just do like shoulder presses and then shrugs and then I'll like move my weight down my body. Um I know that I'm getting >> unequal right now and I know that your answer is going to be um the symmetry afterwards which I already have. Um but should I be doing that or should I like kind of >> a radiation effect you'll get from that which actually will translate over to your other side. So you will be able to preserve somewhat of muscle there as well just by working that one side. But >> yeah, Jason, you can even look these studies up. They're really interesting where they'll immobilize one limb and they'll have groups of people. One group does nothing. The other group exercises the free arm or free leg. Exercising the other side actually minimizes muscle loss and atrophy in the limb that's uh immobilized. >> Like a systemic effect kind of thing. >> Correct. Correct. So I know that the logic is like, oh, I better not do anything because then I'm going to create more of an imbalance, but it actually helps. Yeah. >> Uh to exercise. So, you're doing the right thing. Uh physical therapy, your therapist, because they're working with you directly, is going to give you much more specific advice >> and what you can do. And you're two months out, bro. This is a big deal. I got to calm down a little bit. >> I Yeah, take it easy. Uh what I hear from you is I don't know how long you've been listening to the show. Um but if you've been listen, okay? So, I don't know if you It was around that time. If you remember when I came off of testosterone, I went through a little bit of depression because I was trying to get my levels up naturally. And then right after that, I tore my Achilles. And boy, it just it like ripped my heart out that it was already bad enough. My testosterone levels were tanked. Then I >> started up basketball out of nowhere. >> Yes. Yes. >> Out of nowhere. >> Yes. Totally stupid. Yes. Right. Uh and and I I share this story because uh how much it beat me up on the depression side of not of of not like my I was forced to slow down because my I couldn't do that. And so uh the advice I'm going to lean into with you because you don't seem like the type of person that I'm worried about being lazy. I'm more worried about you doing too much too soon too fast. Something that helped me during that time was actually reviving some other hobbies in my life that I hadn't done in a long time. uh the the whether that's music, listening to Lego type stuff like what at reading like it things try and draw back to some things that you're passionate about that you love that it doesn't require a lot of your your body. I know this is not the advice you're calling in for right now, but just being somebody who's been there, >> uh, it it helped me through that time cuz if if you're constantly focused on the body getting better and you're frustrated because you're not, that's where you have the tendency to push versus leaning into something else. That gives you uh that you enjoy that you love and it's like, oh, you know what? I have I haven't I I can't do the training and the time all the movement I was doing before as much. Uh, so that extra time I'm going to do something else that I I enjoy that I haven't done in a long time that maybe has been replaced by exercise or being busy with life. Uh, I would lean into something like that. I don't know what that is for you. Uh, but that helped me during that time of recovery and getting back to be patient and not rush it. So that that's kind of the advice I give. >> Uh, are you using any peptides or you have any you plan on using any? >> I'm on the Wolver Instax. Nice, >> good, good, good. Yeah. >> Um, yeah. And you guys are 100% right. I am I am all in or nothing at all. Uh I hear that and it it's been tough cuz I have picked up those old old hobbies. Um like like Justin, I'm a musician. I've been picking up the guitar and doing all that stuff. >> Uh but I still like daily want to go work out. So it's a struggle that I need to figure out on my own. I know you can't give me any advice on that, but like yeah, I I hear you and I appreciate the >> the reiterated advice. >> Yeah, bro. That's super tough. Just uh if I can suck if I can ask you kind of a personal question about that. You're a firefighter, paramedic. Were was it your buddies that came to grab you in that situation? Were you in your same jurisdiction? >> No, it was a different department. Um, and I didn't know anybody there. It was like 2 and a half hours away from home. >> Okay. Okay. >> It was in Lancaster, if you know where that is. And I'm in like Orange County. >> How did you go through the wall? How How did that happen? >> I fell asleep at the wheel. >> Oh crap. >> Oh [ __ ] Was it late at night or you just long work? >> Yeah. So I was I was out there to visit a friend and I worked the next day. It was around midnight. Um, I started driving home and I was like, I'm too tired for this. I booked a hotel room, uh, paid for it, started heading there, and on the way, uh, just fell asleep and missed. >> No way. You even had the whereabouts to book the hotel, and you didn't make it to the hotel? Damn, bro. You must have been tired. >> That's tough, dude. >> I I mean, I like, so I'm recently separated 4 months ago from uh my fiance at the time. And so I was just working, working, working, day off, going to see friends, going to do whatever. I was just overstimulated. I did it to myself 100%. >> Oh, bro, you got good friends surrounding you. >> I do. I have a great support system. My uh work union has been great. My friends have been great. I'm going out to dinner with my crew tonight. So, it's awesome. It's >> It's a great thing. >> You ever up here in Northern California? >> Yeah. Come. >> Uh, no, not really. But >> hey, you want to come up and come uh come sit in a live episode, hang out a little bit? >> Yeah. If you ever got time, come up this way. >> We're in San Jose. >> I would love to. >> All right, dude. I got all the time in the world right now. All right, dude. I'll have my assistant I'll have my assistant reach out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Book book a time up here. Come visit. Say hi. Hang out for the day. >> But yeah, keep leaning into that stuff cuz you're not somebody. You're going to get back, bro. You're going to heal. >> You're going to b muscle memory is incredible for somebody who's been working out their life. It'll all come back, dude. So, just be patient with it. Uh, and everything I'm hearing from you, you're I relate to. Uh, you're more likely to hurt yourself going too fast too soon than you are to not do anything, be lazy, and become this fat guy who never works out later on. You'll be fine. You're going to be fine. >> Oh, I have had some major body composition. >> I'm sure. I get it. I get it. >> I'm like 10 pounds heavier and lost all the muscle. >> Yeah. Yeah. It'll come back though, brother. >> You must have had a ton of muscle. You still got some, bro. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's It'll all come back. It's lighting. >> Yeah. Cool. All right, dude. I'll have my assistant reach out, dude. We'll schedule you coming up here and you can hang out in an episode. >> Thank you. I appreciate all your advice. >> You got it, brother. Thank you. That's crazy, >> bro. To think too that you you you knew. >> Well, what's crazy is just two months later because that those are major injuries, dude. >> And he's asking about exercise. It's like, bro, this is two months after. >> Well, and he's on the Wolverine stack. What do we said to everybody about this like that's the negative part of that stack is it's so effective. You feel And that's why he's where he's at right now. He's like, "Hey, false. >> I feel good. Let's Yeah. And so, uh, >> I was just I was just wondering what it's like to be the person to save people and then to be in that position where people are saving you. That's got to be such an interesting >> Well, yeah, but do you think I mean, he's so out of it. >> Yeah, but just to know like you're on the other end of it and know what that happened. He's probably more aware of how lucky he is than anything. >> Oh, I mean, it's super humbling. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Our next caller is Shannon from Washington. >> Hi, Shannon. >> How you doing, Shannon? >> Hi, guys. How's it going? >> Great. How are you? >> Good, thanks. Um, okay. I I'm going to read off my notes here a little bit on the side. I'm so excited. My heart's just beating. >> Thank you. Thank you. Okay. >> Um, so I'm a fairly new listener actually. I was previously really into the health and longevity stuff and listening to mostly that. Uh, I even became a nutritional therapy practitioner. Um, haven't started practice but got certified in that. um started listening to you guys at the beginning of this year when I transferred into the trainer position at Planet Fitness. Don't laugh. Um I have three questions today if that's okay. One about carbs, one about glute growth, and also what next. Uh but first, just a little background. I'm almost 62 years young. I'm 5'5, 118 to 120 lbs, about 18% body fat. Uh, I've stayed within 5 lbs of this weight for over 10 years after gaining and losing 10 to 20 lbs over and over and over again. Uh, literally lost hundreds of pounds over my lifetime. Uh, I've made the commitment to myself that I'll I'll continue strength training and eating healthy for life. I'm pretty happy with my physique. Uh, but also look at my body as a sculpting project. So, it's fun to kind of focus and fine-tune where I can, trying to keep it interesting. I like to have the look of a figure and physique competitor. Uh, my upper body is probably, you know, probably there, but the lower body is not. Uh, as far as occupation, I'm working four days a week right now at Planet Fitness as a trainer. I also, uh, working on building my own business around nutrition and writing an ebook. And I also spent a lot of time helping my 94 yearear-old mother who's still living on her own. Uh, as far as nutrition, my diets evol evolved a lot. It went from the lowfat, I was the fat-free queen to paleo to keto and intermittent fasting. Uh, and you know, just the whole health longevity stuff. Uh, once I started focusing on health and longevity rather than weight loss, my body fat finally melted off. I've have a rhythm to how I eat, building my meals around 30 to 50 grams of protein. Um, I'm obsessed with protein, knowing that I need more at my age. And also, uh, since I'm lean and wanting to maintain and gain muscle, uh, what finally worked for me was just really simplifying things. I'm mostly animal protein, non- starchy veggies, healthy fats, plus Greek yogurt, cottage cheese, protein powders, and a little fruit. Excuse me. I don't normally track calories or macros, but I've been tracking for the last couple weeks because I knew you guys would ask. Uh I'm averaging roughly I know I shouldn't say this, 1500 to,900 calories. Uh but there are some higher days that I didn't track. So if I, you know, go out or there's a family function, I just, you know, I go at it, but I don't try to track it. So there's a few days of those in there. My protein's actually usually 170 to 200 grams. I know that's a lot, but love my protein. My carbs are landing around 60 to 180 depending on if I have popcorn. And uh fats usually around 60 to 100. Uh I'm actually through tracking I realized I'm eating more carbs than I thought I was. They're mostly though from my little uh treats like my sugar-free fudge sickles at night and my uh popcorn that I kind of have purposely been adding just to bring up carbs a little bit. Little bit of a training background. I started lifting in the early 80s inspired by Rachel Mccllish, Corey Everson, Flex Magazine, >> Miss Olympia, first one. >> Yeah, they were just beautiful. I was obsessed with with that look and all that. Anyway, uh and then starting in 2007, I started working out with home fitness programs. You guys probably know the ones. Um I was did those for 18 years and was a coach with that company. Uh and then in let's see and then at 50 I actually did a figure and physique competition just to kind of ring in the 50th 50th birthday and did well in that. And that was all just training at home. You dumbbells in a bench. Uh, what else? For the last year, I've been working four days a week at Planet Fitness and do all my lifting during my breaks. So, I have a 10-minute break, a 30-m minute break, and another 10-minute break. So, I've just been fitting my workouts in during that. >> That's awesome. >> And I've been doing an upper lower split with the shoulder and glute focus. So, using mostly dumbbells and cables. Uh when I saw that you guys had just released something similar, I'm like, "Oh, that really piqued my interest." So, I've been curious about that. Uh I'm also been working on pull-ups just cuz it's a fun goal. For my 61st birthday, I was able to do 12 and um but then I slacked off a little bit due to elbow pain. Uh now I'm back at it currently averaging 5 to 7, but working my way back up to 10 for my 62nd birthday. Uh, I'm not a big cardio person. I only run if someone's chasing me. I uh I lift to build and sculpt muscle and use my diet to keep the body fat down. I'm pretty sedentary though on my three home days, Wednesdays and weekends. Uh I'm mostly on the computer working on my business or helping my mom. Uh but I'm trying to get better at adding in some walking and I know I should really be adding some mobility. So, to the questions for glutes, despite focusing on glutes twice a week, I don't feel like I'm getting the growth I should. Um, the main movements are the Smith machine hip thrusts when I can get on at the Smith machine at the gym is really hard to get on. Um, Bulgarian split squats I do every time. Uh, and depending on what's available that day, I'll do hanging dumbbell sumos, cable step downs, cable kickbacks, and 45°ree hypers. Um, I know my that training right there could probably be refined much better, but that's just what I'm currently doing. Sometimes I'll do the dumbbell RDL's, but I have a I have a lot of elbow pain if I do any if I'm holding anything over 35 lbs. um you know, for dumbbells. So, I kind of started backing off on those. Uh and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I don't um I'm not currently doing any squats, leg press, and even though I actually have a squat rack at home that's barely ever been used. Uh long story, but I bought it on accident a long time ago. And um but then when I was doing all those home fitness programs, they were just dumbbells, you know, so I didn't wasn't using it then. So I have that available. Um am I missing something obvious? What would you change? >> Yes. You want the obvious answer? >> So first of all, let me ask this. Do you do you love the the sculpting and shaping thing? >> Yes. >> Do you like Okay. So So do I. I love that. Uh you have to let me put some clay on. >> I know. I knew you were going to say that. >> Well, yeah. just you you it this isn't a even though we can get into squatting and we can get into some movements and we could have we could we could critique uh the exercise selection that that's not the problem here. You I h you have to allow me if you maintain the leanness that you've maintained for 10 years it's because majority of time you're in a deficit only a small amount of time are you ever in a slight surplus and that is not enough to add more more size to your glutes. It's impossible. >> It's impossible. So, I I would You need to let me get you comfortable with adding body fat for a period of time so I could build the glutes so I can then carve away and sculpt and show you what you want. >> I don't think you're surprised at what Adam's saying cuz when you mentioned the calories, you kind of stopped and you're like, >> I know. >> You know, >> can can I add something on that though? >> Yeah. Normally there is quite a fluctuation in there because like I said I help my mom a lot and I go over there. She's got a mixed nut jar that I cannot stay out of. One day I calculated I I ate like 1,200 calories of nuts. >> Yeah. >> She also has chocolates and Oreos which I was starting to have a problem with. I finally had to quit sugar uh to get myself to stop. >> I'm going to stop you. Okay. You're 18% body fat. >> Yeah. So even even if you have You're too lean to build any muscle. >> Even if you even if you have these periodic days that you have the extra thousand calories, that's my point. 95% of the time you're in a deficit. 5% you have these thousand calorie nut, chocolate, whatever things that is not enough for us to build. >> Swing. I'm going to tell you something right now. Super simple. The solution for what you want is super simple. Everything you're saying as you're talking, you're giving us all this information and it's very glaring. >> The one It's not your workout. Yeah, >> it's not your workout. It's very glaring what you need to do. So, the advice I'm going to give you is going to be lifechanging. It's going to be super simple, but it's going to be the most difficult thing you ever did >> because you're afraid of eating more. >> Mhm. >> You're afraid of eating more, hun. >> You guys, I didn't even want to call cuz I knew you were going to say this. Let let me negotiate just for a moment. >> There's no there's no negotiation. It's either you want to or you don't. So, it's like how bad here's it's night and day. >> Well, here's something that I've always been so like rabbit holeing and curious about and um I love being lean and I know that I could get better gains. Like I have to decide which is more important, you know? >> Yeah. But the options are you're you're creating a false a false dichotomy. It's not be lean and be fat. >> It's be too lean and be lean with muscle. Which, by the way, I'm going to tell you something. Here's what else is going to happen. It's a much more comfortable. >> You're going to have less pain. >> You're going to have more energy. You're going to have more vitality. And you're going to look better. >> Longevity. >> You're going to look better. You're going to feel healthier. You're going to be like, "Oh my god, this is lifechanging." But you got to get through the scary part. >> Your calories are way too low. >> The the way the temporary the the the thing I want you to get comfortable with is only the of being fluffy, which will feel that way for you. Everybody else in the world will go, "Oh my god, she looks amazing. She doesn't like." But for you, I know we'll feel you'll feel, "Oh my god, my waist has gone up. Oh, I can't see my abs the same way I saw my ab like you'll feel all that way, but I'll be like, we're packing the clay on right now. Relax. I'm going to get this metabolism up. We're going to build this ass. And then we're going to then we're going to carve it down. Then you're going to be lean and ripped again. You're going to be eating more calories than you were, and you have more booty than you had before. So you won't feed the booty. >> That's right. >> You have to feed the booty. >> You're also going to have less pain. Part of the reason why your elbow bothered you or you'll get these occasion because your calories are so low. >> Yeah. >> Let me ask something though that I've always been curious about. Is there a way to zigzag the calories around your workout days and still have like high calorie days and lower calorie days? >> Still try to keep you in maintenance. >> Wrong question for you. This is very simple. I'm telling you like exactly what you need to do. The challenge is going to be whether or not you're going to do it. >> I know. >> So, you got to let go for a second. So, here's the deal. Okay. Uh because you remind me of so many trainers I've worked with. You're obviously a fitness fanatic, so I know what the challenge is like. Uh either you're going to try to do this on your own or you should you should I think you should work with a coach. Not because you don't know what to do, but because you're not going to do it. >> Yeah. >> Uh and a coach is going to reverse diet you and probably by month two or three, you'll be bought in. >> Yeah. They'll get you out of your comfort zone. >> First 30, 60 days, you're going to be a lot of freaking out. By month two or three, you're going to be like, "What is going on? I feel amazing. I cannot believe how strong I am. Oh my god, I look great. I wish I did this before is what's going to happen about month two or three. >> Yeah, >> scary. >> Yeah. No, I would love to do that at some point. Right now, it's just not uh not an option for me. Um >> Okay, so here >> are you are you listening to the are you listening to the journey that I'm doing with Karen right now? Are you are how how often do you listen? >> Uh I've been listening, but I haven't heard much on that lately. um unless you're doing it someplace else. But I but I've been staying up to date on your podcast. >> It'd be worth your while to get in her muscle mommy group. So at least you are communicating with her on a weekly basis. So that's I'd love that. >> Yeah, I think that would be a great place. Um I could have Doug send you a link to get in there. >> Um >> but off the top of my head, your your calories need to be >> Yeah. >> never lower than 2,000. Probably around 2500 on average. >> Not sometimes. >> But we had to get we we had just like Karen, I had to stair step her to there at that point. So we'd a coach would stair step you up 200 calories every other week or so and until you get to a place like that. But at the end of the day like it this is a this is a very easy answer. It's very difficult to do >> right and just my biggest uh you know push back on that has been that I didn't want to take the time I didn't want to start tracking calories again. I've always hated doing that. I will admit doing it the last couple weeks I'm going okay this isn't that you kind of get in the groove of it and it's okay. Uh it it's tricky just I've fallen into such an easy pattern of eating that I love and I just know that I just need to add to it. Here's another question in adding calories. So, you know, the next thing I was going to talk about was carbs. Is is it okay to have more of my calories with fats? Like I love my cheese. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I think you need to. If you're eating If you're eating 170 g of protein, 1500 calories, you're eating boiled chicken breast, tilapia, and protein shakes. >> No, I'm eating I'm eating all of it. I'm eating steak and ground beef. Like, I'm not I'm not the the eater that's trying to lose weight anymore. I I eat lots of this stuff. Like, I love my fats. I love my meats. I love all of it. It's just that the calories aren't always adding up. Especially because on my work days, uh, since I lift during my breaks, I pack like I pack a shake that has just protein and collagen and creatine. I bring a yogurt smoothie bowl with protein powder in it and sometimes a little bit of olive oil in it, a couple string cheeses and an apple. Like, I have to do stuff that I can just sneakily eat because I'm using my brakes to lift. >> No, that's great. But something's not adding up, Shannon. So, do you can you give me the macros on those days you were tracking? Because 170 grams of protein and 1500 calories, you can't there's not possible there's a lot of fat in there. >> Yeah. On those days when I'm at work, there's not as much fat. I do eat a couple string cheeses on those days. Um >> can you tell me what those macros look like? Proteins, fats, and carbs. >> Uh let's see. >> Thanks. >> On Let me look up Monday. That was a different So on Monday, which was a work day, I did 1620 calories, 165 gram of protein, 44 fat, 179. >> You're not eating ground be You're not eating ground beef. You're not eating ribe eyes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, that that one was Okay. Then to yesterday, I had taco salads with ground beef. So, that one was yesterday was also a work day. It was 1,800 calories. 1880 175 g of protein, 97 g of fat, 104 g of carbs. >> You should be You should be no lower than 80 to 90 g. >> Yeah. You don't want a 40 g fat day. That is not going to >> You don't ever want to go lower than 60. >> That's not going to support your skin, hair, nails, hormones, your nerves. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You got to bump your calories on. That's going to be really scary for you, but you're going to feel so good >> when you do it. You're going to build muscle. You're going to get really strong very quickly, but you got to bump your calories way too low. Yeah. >> And and walking around, I'm going tell you this right now. For a woman to walk around and maintain 18%, you are sacrificing longevity. >> Well, yeah. You're in you're in a deficit. You're you're you're catabolic most of the time. >> An ideal a >> very small fraction of time. You're hitting maintenance to a slight surplus, but most of the time you're you're you're catabolic. That's why we're we're not building. >> That's right. And longevity body fat percentages for active women uh typically are in the low 20s, not below 20. 18%. >> I've been hearing you guys say that. I always hesitate even call. But now that I'm on the roll tracking, I'll I'll continue tracking. And you said it doesn't really matter whether it's fat or carbs. >> Which one? Whichever one you like. >> I I definitely don't want your fat going below 80, though. That because that's essential. 44. You missed the central fat there. >> Yeah. And I usually try to I'm usually better about adding it in. And our dinners when we actually do the dinners together, there's always like broccoli with butter and there's always, you know, a meat and anyway. And I and I do cheese quite a bit. >> Yeah. Well, look, I'm going to tell you, I know it's really hard. >> I'm going to challenge what you said about the way I love to eat this way because I don't think you do. I think you think you do. But when you experience what it feels like to fuel yourself, >> it's very different. It's very very different. The the the the nutrition that you're having now is a relationship that is not serving you, but it feels like it is because it feels very uh controlled. >> Well, it's it's simple. And so what I tend to get very focused on stuff and right now I need to focus on building my business and I I get afraid of because I will get tunnel vision you know that that's why I didn't want to compete again like I just get tunnel vision >> and you know push other stuff aside and I I need to be focusing on the business and stuff but I know I can do both if I'm careful about it but I just didn't want to spend a ton of time preparing food and >> you don't you Actually, don't Shannon, you don't have to be that careful, okay? You are you are so low body fat percentage that we can get away with not tracking like crazy and go have the five guys. Go do I I you can get away with that. And I'm going to say to you exactly what I said to Karen two days ago when we sat down and met. So, I've continued to push her up. She's 12 to 15 lbs heavier than she's ever been right now. And she's asking, "What are we doing this week?" And I said, "I want you to add 200 more calories." And the look on her face when I when I say that to her and the thing that I said to her to remind her is like you have already proven you know how to get lean and shredded. That is easy for you. It is hard for you to get bigger, fluffier. Like that's the work. So what I'm asking you to do is to do the do the work. Do that and don't worry about what it looks like, feels like because you can come back anytime. It's so easy for you to rein it in, tighten up and get lean. You've proven that you're 60some years old and you're shredded. You have proven you can do that at the highest level. You've competed. Same thing with her. Like you wh why? Like stop worrying about that. We can go get that anytime we want. >> Let's let's put the work in on on adding and building and pushing calories. And guess what? If you push a little too far one week, so what? >> Push a little harder next week. Cuz I know I can turn you I can turn the two of you the other direction real quick, real easy. I I'm going to tell you, you add 500 calories consistently to your diet, you're going to have more energy and more motivation for building your business. Your body is running on fumes. >> Yeah. I'm excited to bring back I had to take nuts and nut butters out of the house cuz I couldn't control myself. So, that that'll be a fun way to add some >> Yes. >> Yeah. Get them in. You know what? Here's what we're going to do because I I have I don't have a ton of confidence you're going to follow what we say. >> So, here's what we're going to do. >> Here comes the accountability. I'm going to have you come back on in 60 days. >> All right. >> And in 60 days, we're going to have a conversation and see where you're at with it all. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And as far as carbs around the workouts, are are carbs that important? Like, do I need to start packing more than my apple and >> stuff? I think the higher calories will make you feel amazing. Uh you could play with the carbs and see how it fuels your workouts. >> Carbs are not essential. So, and you're getting, you know, you're getting some, but sometimes, listen, uh, I have people who kind of kind of go low carb all the time. I bump their carbs up and they just feel amazing. >> So, base it off of how you feel. >> One time I played around with blending cooked sweet potato into my yogurt protein smoothie bowl and maybe I could do that to add a little carb during the day. Absolutely. >> I have to like just quickly scarf my food though. No one's looking. >> Um, >> we'll see you in 60 days. Bump those calories. You will build your butt. You will build everything. Yeah. >> And then also just looking for recommendations on on what next. Should I stick with the upper lower point like that? >> I'm not worried about your program. I mean, I can send you one of mine, but I think what you're doing is perfectly fine. It's all a program thing. >> This is all just too little uh nutrition. Too little nutrients, >> but I can send you a program if you want muscle mommy. I can send you upper lower the 4day split we just wrote, right? That's the one you >> That would be We'll send you that. We'll send you that one. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We'll send you that one. >> Thank you so much, you guys. Yeah, >> you got it. We'll see you in 60 days. >> That's right. >> All right. >> She's super fluffy. 20 pounds. >> Stop, dude. What are you doing, bro? >> I want to see you eating on this next call. >> Okay. All right. Sh. All right. Thank you, guys. >> Bye. Bye. >> That's a That's a There's a lot of denial going on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I was >> She's like, I love eating this way. It's like, this is a terrible example or comparison, but it's like, yeah, my boyfriend, you know, sometimes he gets mad and, you know, he throws things at me and hit me. Well, why don't you leave? I love him. I don't think you love him. I think you're in an abusive relationship right now. >> Well, the the the the math didn't add up either when you're doing doing the hundred how many No, I was like, wait a second. That's that should be well >> straight up. And I hope she watches this because she can take it. Like, uh, and I've worked with we've worked with people like her. She's withholding information. She's probably doesn't want to hear. She knows what the right advice is. She doesn't want to hear it. Uh but the but the truth is listen if you watch this Shannon if you if you just do it just do what we say for 30 days it will change your life but it'll be so scary. It'll be so scary to consistently eat more but oh my god you want to talk about muscle and strength and energy pain in her email there's things she shouldn't talk about here but she has areas that hurt and she's trying to wonder what's going on. What's happening is you're just underfed >> and you're training all and pain is oneab she's catabolic 90% of the time. 90% of the time she's catabolic and so yeah her that which means her body's breaking down >> and you should not live at 18% body fat as a woman you don't live there it's uh >> especially as we age >> especially as you age something if if she has something catastrophic happen and she needs to like be hospitalized that's going to be tough it's not going to be able to support her next caller is Jennifer from South Carolina >> hi Jennifer >> Hi Jennifer >> hey hi guys thank you so much for taking my call >> how can I help you >> yeah I'm just going to redirect directly from my email so I don't stray um off course. Okay, >> no worries. Yeah. >> All right. I'm 52 years old. I'm 5'5. I was introduced to your show about 7 months ago. Your first few podcasts I listened to made me aware that everything I did in my workout routine was everything you say not to do. I have since listened to your show and I've gained so much knowledge. A little background, I have been in the gym since I was 16. I've always had a competitive mindset. I started swimming at age seven and was a top competitive swimmer in the summer league races. I started running in middle school which led into road biking and then eventually into triathlons. I ran cross country and track in high school. I got into mountain biking, participated in some adventure races and triathlons. Um, I've always been conscious about my size and that has a lot to do with my hard work and dedication to being healthy. The problem for me is that my weight never goes down. It seems the harder I work, the bigger I get. And it is very frustrating. As I got older, the mentality was more is better in the gym and less is more in the diet. Since listening to your show, I've had a lot of mental rewiring. The first program I ran was MAPS anabol an excuse me, anabolic and that was a mental challenge because it went against everything I thought to be true. I started tracking my calories and became more aware of my protein. I had a few months in the concier program, but I had to let that go for financial reasons. I've since done power lift and muscle mommy and just started upper lower. My calories have been been between 21 and 2200 for about 6 months with protein around 170 and my steps are 8 to 10. I still like to sl uh swim at least once a week. My sleep is 7 to 8 hours a night. My energy levels are good. The scale has only gone up about 3 or 5 lbs uh since upping my calories to the 2122. I meal prep all my meals and stick to whole foods. My lips are constantly getting stronger. I have uh attached my DEX scan for you. I just had that done recently. Um I didn't know if that was something you guys could take a look at without revealing any numbers. Um I had my RMR done which was 1449. My lab values uh are all within normal. I'm on hormone replacement for estrogen only. So, my problem is not due to any lack of dedication uh in the gym. I love working out and lifting. The problem is that my body refuses to go down on the scale and my clothing size refuses to go down and I have never shown any significant body comp changes reflecting any of my hard work and dedication. >> Yeah, I get that. So, I didn't know what you guys think. >> Yeah. No, thanks for calling in. And but by the way, you're kicking butt. >> Yeah, you're doing a really good job, actually. >> You're doing a really, really good job. So, where were your calories before you bumped them up to the the 21 2200 that you're at now? >> Oh, I never counted honestly, but I'm sure they were at 1,500. I mean, it was, you know, packets of tuna for lunch, an apple, you know, never really um focusing on hitting my uh protein target of 170 is where I'm trying to hit right now. >> Okay. Okay. And then how long would you say uh before you moved into this direction? How long were you doing the like more work, less food kind of mentality and approach? How many years would that >> probably forever? >> Okay. Yeah. So many. And how long have you been doing this right here? Uh, I just finished six months with you, uh, following it strict. >> Okay. Excellent job. So, in six months, the scale went up a few pounds, >> but your calories are higher and you're strong. By the way, I can see I see in your in your uh email that you're a bench of 135. >> Yeah, yeah, it's actually gone up a little bit since then. >> That's exceptional. Okay, so here's what it looks like. Now, first off, uh because you had such a long history of doing it a particular way, takes a while to get the metabolic rate to start to really respond, which it's starting to uh by the way, I could tell by the by the strength gains. But what it looks like is slowly building and then you do the cut later and then you see the fat loss. But I don't like cutting you when you're only at 21 to 2200 calories. Still too low to cut you. >> Keep going. If you were to cut to 1500 right now, you would see some weight loss, but then it would plateau and we wouldn't have anywhere to go. So, I would want to see your calories get closer to 26, 27, 28 >> before we would do the cut. Before we do the cut. >> So, essentially stay the course. You're doing everything right. Let me ask you a few questions. Over the last 6 months since you've bumped your calories, you're doing the strength training. I see you're swimming uh in your email. Any changes in how you feel? Yeah, I mean my energy levels are good and I feel a lot better. Um, you know, I I've always looked forward to going to the gym, but I look more forward to it now because I I feel like every day I'm going up a little bit more. Um, focusing a little bit more on my technique, working a little bit more on the intensity. Um, my biggest struggle I think right now in in the gym is that that 3 minute that 3 minute rest and stuff. >> I was just going to ask you I was just going to ask you how are them rest periods going for an athlete. >> I follow them but after about a minute I'm I'm antsy. But um no, I follow it and and I just think, you know, when you um have been in the gym for like a really long time or the same gym, you know, for a really long time and you see the same people and then, you know, they get the results or they've just had a baby or something and they come back full force and it's just, you know, I'm just kind of waiting for my little golden moment and I I I can't find it. >> Yeah. Well, it makes me crazy, honestly. I asked you how you felt cuz I wanted to point something out and you said you felt a lot better and it sounds like you just have more energy, >> more motivation. You just overall you feel like you have better vitality. Would that be a fair statement? Okay. >> I wanted I wanted to point that out because you've been improving the last 6 months. >> Yeah. >> Things are changing. That didn't come out of nowhere. Things are changing. The aesthetic changes happened a little late a little later because we still got to get to a place where we can cut from. We don't want to go back to where we were before, which is what would happen if we cut you right now. If we cut you now, we definitely would see some fat loss, but it would plateau and then you'd be stuck at 1500 calories again and you would feel the way you did when you were eating so low. >> And I and it's important to note that when you take somebody who potentially was around 1500 calories eating and not seeing any sort of change in their body and I get them all the way up to 21 or 2200 and we see little to no gain really in body fat, that's a huge accomplishment. >> That's a big win. >> And it's like now in the next six months, can we do that again? If we went from 500 or 1,500 to to 22, can we now go from 22 to 28 in the next 600? And again, even if the weight the scale doesn't change very much, is that a hu that's a huge win. But it's hard because I know you're putting the work in. So you're like, I want but it's like this is the right way to do it. If we're going to do this and we're going to keep it off for the rest of your life and you're going to have that golden moment, you're going to feel amazing. This is the path. This is the right way to go about it. And so once we get up to that 2,800 calories, then we bring you back down to 22, which is where you're at now, and you just the weight, the m the body fat just comes off and you feel like you're being fed, you got good energy, like all the signs that you feel now, vitality, all those things, but also leaning out and then it looks like this beautiful. You're not having to force it. It's just happening for you. But it's going to take a little bit of time because and that's why Sal asked, "How long were you on the other side?" Because if you the longer you've been on that side, the longer it seems to take my clients for their their metabolism to respond the way we want it to respond. And so just be patient. You're doing great. You're doing really good. >> So if you're putting on from say 20 21 22 going up to 26 in the next 6 months. So what does that look like? Um should it be 100 calories a week, 50 calories a week, and then where should my protein still be at 170? And then I get kind of confused. >> Protein. So protein, you're you're you're for the entire period of this this whole process, your protein solid and just keep stays around there. It'll always come from carbs and fat, and it's normally whichever one you you're more comfortable with. My only one thing with my female clients I keep an eye on is make sure your fat's not too low. So if you're not getting at least 60 to 80 gram of fat a day, I would tell you go fat. But if you're getting that, then I'd say wherever you want it from, fat or carbohydrates, it this is a generic answer, but it looks like about 200 calories. We will bump there. We I normally hold a client there for a couple weeks. What I want to see is the scale staying the same. I don't want to see it rising any You might see like an initial little bump and then it kind of level out and sometimes it dips back down and then levels, but I want to see that kind of hold for about a week or two before I bump again. And then I'm going to And so I'm just going to keep incrementally doing this 150 to 200 calories. It's normally about every two weeks or so. Sometimes it's three if I want it to be if I don't see weight kind of stabilizing, but I'm looking for weight to stabilize for a solid week before I bump again like that. And that's kind of what it looks stairstepping all the way through that process. Maintaining your steps what you're doing, maintaining the workouts the way you're doing. Uh everything that is all staying the same and those calories are coming from either carbs or fat. >> Okay. >> Yep. All right. >> And play with those. Play with those. By the way, like uh if you have the if you have the flexibility in the diet because while I'm coaching someone, I like to like some people just run more optimally on a higher fat diet and they're like, "Man, Adam, I my skin I notice a difference. Uh my hormone profile, I sleep better." Some people carbs they're like, "Oh my god, Adam, those extra 100 grams of carbs, my workouts are amazing now and I feel good and my muscle bellies." So play with it. Sometimes go uh more fat and see how you feel for a while. Sometimes go more carbs. go a blend of the two and and and so I would encourage you to to play with the two of them. >> Okay. That's kind of where I figure that what you guys are gonna say and especially especially about bumping those getting those calories up to 26 28. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're doing so good. >> It should be interesting what that looks like cuz 22 feels like a lot. >> Yeah. And and so that has a lot to do by the way too. So back to I gave you a generic answer every two weeks. Sometimes that's longer because a client of mine like 22 is already rot and then I go 24 and you're going oh my god this is so hard. So I gota kind of sometimes I had to kind of pull you back then to 23 for a little bit and then go back. So it's hard to give like an exact answer that looks like but the ultimate goal is in 6 months from now we're eating close to 2,800 calories. What that road map looks like is very individualized. It could be every week going up a little bit. It could be every two weeks. It could be we go up for a few weeks and then I have to pull you back a little bit for a while to give you a diet break because you feel like you're just stuffing yourself every day. So that's where the individualized kind of coaching happens is like but overall that's that your goal should be set on getting stronger, getting those calories up to there before we even think about the cutting process and then the cutting will be a lot easier. >> That's right. >> All right. Well, it's doable. I'm up for a challenge always. >> Finally. And I want you to also and I want you to keep having fun with the activity, too. I know you're swimming now. You have such a a background of uh of athleticism. >> Have fun with that. Don't ever stop doing that. Enjoy it because that's going to that's going to keep you consistent forever. >> Don't do it to burn >> and try and lose body fat. Do it because you like doing it. Because you love doing it. It's something Yeah. >> Yeah. That's that's that's that's a hard divide right there. >> It is a very hard divide. That's why I wanted to say that because sometimes when Sal gives someone permission like that, that's like permission to try and burn it off. It's like, no, no, no. Don't. That's not what he's saying. >> Just go have fun. >> Have fun. If you love to swim, swim because you love to swim. Don't swim because you're like, oh, I think I burned an extra 800 calories today. That I don't want you to get into. And later on, we can lean into that on the cutting process when I go, hey, pick up another day of swimming so we can increase that caloric deficit. But we're not there yet right now. Right now, we're in build process. So, I want you to build, stay active, but don't go out of your way to do that stuff trying to burn. >> Now, Jennifer, if you want somebody to coach you through that, we have coaches. You just let us know and I'll set you up on a call and you can see what that looks like and they'll walk with you the whole >> She had the concier. She was at the concier for months. >> Oh, cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, good. You got great information then. Oh, perfect. >> Yeah, that's how we got >> Yeah, I did. They they were they were very great and very helpful um with all that. And I I hated to have to bump out, but I got some life activities that are happening and so I had to make a choice and unfortunately I had to drop that one. So I guess in 6 months I'll do another DEXA scan and we'll see see what happens. I wasn't real happy with that. >> Kind of told what I thought it would that's the starting point. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter what it says. It's like where we go from here is what matters. >> And don't discard like always remember don't discredit like I feel better, I'm stronger, I'm moving better. Like those are all signs you're progressing. It's not just the scale. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's very It's very different um after listening to you guys to go in and do a whole mental rewire, >> which has been excellent, and then to actually challenge myself personally after being on the bench in years past, but being stuck in a certain weight and not realizing that I really could. And now at 52, I'm doing I'm like, "What? I'm loading, you know, with 45s. That's just insane to me. You know, it feels pretty badass. I don't want >> Yeah, it is badass. That's awesome. >> By the way, 135 lb bench for a woman is very, very >> impressive. Very, very few women to do that. >> You're doing a great job right now. You're doing great. >> All right. Well, I'll just I'll stay the course and stick with it. >> All right. Keep it up. >> Good job, Jennifer. >> Yeah. Perfect. Thank you, guys. >> Thank you. >> She's doing great. >> Yeah, >> she's doing great. >> Doing really good. >> If she stays consistent, this is going to be amazing for her in six months. >> Yeah. just, you know, good opportunity to talk about how um >> the longer that you were in that that extreme mindset. It >> seems to be that way for sure. >> Yeah. That this is uh this can be the the really difficult part is >> you and then she you know obviously she hears the show and we give advice and then you get we get these great testimonies. People call me in, oh my god, I lost all this weight and they because we took your advice and they see it in 6 months or 9 months and sometimes this takes a year, two years for somebody to rebound their metabolism from so many years of the yo-yo dieting and the chronic extreme training with the chronic low. >> I had a client, it took me a year and we would bas this fluctuation of the scale that really scary and it just took us a long time. But she had a long history of underating. One of my one of my last clients I took on uh when I was at the in the gym uh was a a case that took me two years and she was a collegiate level softball player, had put on a lot of weight and had her and her mentality was just cut hard and she she had she was strong, she was capable, she put but it took us literally 2 years before it really started to move like that. And during that process, we had a lot of these where, you know, reverse dieting and then I would show her just to prove to her I knew what I was doing. Like, look, I could I could shred 10 15 pounds off you real quick, but I you have a lot more that you want to go. So, we had to keep going this way. So, yeah, it took it took her That was the longest though. I've never had anybody take that long. I remember how frustrating it was for me. Also had a sports medicine degree, so she like knew her [ __ ] >> So, even harder. It was like trying to get stuff. Yeah. >> Our next caller is Becky from Ontario. >> Hi, Becky. Hi, how are you? >> Good, >> good. How can I help you? >> It's great to be with you guys. I've been uh a big fan now for about a year. I've been listening and binging on all of your um podcasts. Um I'm just going to read my email because I'm really nervous. Um thank you for all you do to help people with their health and fitness goals. Um I'm looking for some listener coaching from Sal, Adam, and Justin regarding my metabolism and nutrition postmenopause. I'm currently uh 52 years old. I'm 5'2. I'm 140 lb. Um I recently made a massive lifestyle shift um for 5 years. Uh from 2020 to 2025, I was uh vegan and I and I was a runner. I didn't really lift weights or anything. Um but over starting in 2025, April, March, April, I went back to eating meat and dairy. Um I stopped running. I started lifting a couple times a week and Pilates three times a week as well as um pickle ball two hours on Sundays. Um I started realizing pretty quickly though that I was I felt like I was overtraining. Um so in December I stopped playing pickle ball on Sundays and I stopped the Pilates and then I started training with a coach two days a week. Um, I really haven't seen any um fat loss. I've feel like I'm stronger, but I don't see any fat loss. In fact, um, since April of 2025 till now, I've gained 15 lbs and 9.6 is fat and 5 lbs of lean mass. Um, I'm kind of not sure what to do at this point. I've been trying to pay attention to my protein intake as well as um I've been starting to track calories and I'm starting to think maybe I've been under fueling. So, um when I was tracking I was getting, you know, any I think under 1,500 calories a day and now I've been trying to work on um reverse dieting a bit and I the last few weeks I I've been consistently around 17 to two 2100 calories and I'm just wondering is this the right way to go? Um, I know you always say that reverse dieting takes time and trust the process, but it's really difficult because I'm I weigh more than I ever have. >> Um, so I guess I just want to look for some input in input from you. >> Yeah. Well, thanks for calling in and it is very hard. So, I have a few more questions to ask you if that's okay. >> Sure. >> So, what made you stop being a vegan uh and a runner? What were >> Because I wanted I wanted to start uh lifting weights. >> Okay. Now, was there something that happened? Was there energy injury? Was it like you got some health markers come back? >> Um, not really. I just didn't like I just I just really wanted to get strong. I wanted to get I wanted to get uh sculpted and I wanted to look good and I I knew it wasn't and I started listening to your podcast and that was the one thing that that changed. >> I love it. >> What are the differences that you felt since you switched uh to Have you you said you think you're stronger. What do you mean by that or or what are you noticing? >> I actually am stronger. I mean, I I just did I just entered it uh into a deadlift competition and I I was able to lift 175. >> Let's go. >> So, my my my top weight there is is 185. Um and I can bench press 90. Um >> that's great. That's incredible. >> Yeah, I've never done anything like that before. So, um I know I'm stronger, but I'm just I'm not seeing it on my body, you know? I just there's this layer of fat that I just can't drop. >> It's going to take a it's going to take a little while because your calories are so low, hun. Uh so and and you may gain some body weight, but the other option is to just do what you were doing before, which wasn't working either. >> So we got we got to keep moving in a direction where we have a little runway. I see in your email that you it says you were shocked to find out that you were eating around 1,90 calories a day. When was that? Yeah, when I was I just decided to randomly track and I was like, whoa, that's that's really low. I expected it to be more than that. >> Yeah, it's important through this process of reverse dieting because what can be what can be disheartening or what can be discouraging is to watch the scale either go up a little bit or not change at all or to see that the body fat's not coming off. But what tends to happen is we ignore some of the other things that are happening like uh strength, energy, mobility, sleep, libido. If you're noticing improvements in all those areas, uh, it's because the reverse diet's working. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. The fat loss doesn't happen till later when we have some place to cut from because there was nowhere to cut from before. Your calories are so low, we if we cut you, it would have made you sick. Uh, and we're still too low. So, you know, 1,700 to 2,000. If we cut you, we would bring you down to 1,200. And you might see a little bit of fat loss, but then you'd plateau. You'd lose strength and you would feel crappy. It wouldn't put you in a good place. So, it's >> I just find it hard to eat right now because I'm finding that, you know, I'm pretty full eating what I'm eating right now. So, I don't know if I need to just eat more meals per day or >> No. What'll happen? So, what happens? And we get this question a lot, especially on live callers, of like what exactly does the reverse diet look like? And it's so hard because everybody's going to be a little bit different. like somebody we put on a reverse diet. It's like, "Oh my god, my appetite's through the roof. I can eat so much." Other people be like, "I feel like I'm stuffing myself. This is so hard to get this food down." And so what'll happen is you'll hit you're probably pushing to a good point right now where you said your calories are. You'll stay there maintaining that while continuing to lift and get stronger. Then all a sudden out of nowhere, you'll start to feel this appetite increase. And that's a great sign. It's probably because you built a little bit of muscle. You're getting stronger. Now the body is saying, "Hey, it needs more calories." Then we lean into that. Then we bump the calories again. Then you'll be at another place again where you're like, "Oh my god, it's a lot of food." We we stay there for a while. Then all of a sudden strength goes up again in the gym. Followed by that comes appetite. And so it kind of looks like that. And it's this stairstepping process. And it's not like this clear like, "Okay, we're going to add 200 calories every 3 weeks forever." It's like, "No, you're going to add it. You're going to keep it there for a little bit and then you're going to and you should see the results of the strength in the gym." And then not long after that, you typically feel the appetite come up a little bit and then it's like, okay, we can bump the calories again. And that's what it looks like. >> And there's And there's more to add to that, too. So, when you say you're feeling full, explain that to me. Is it like your stomach hurts, you're bloated? Is it just I feel like I'm satisfied. >> Yeah. I'm just I feel like I'm satisfied. Like I don't have hunger. I'm not hungry. Okay. >> You know, um I'm I'm hungry at my meal times, but I'm not hungry in between. I've never been a snacker. >> Okay. Okay. Good. How long before all of this would you say you were uh eating very little or kind of undereating? How many years was that? >> Oh, my whole life. >> Okay. >> Probably. Yeah. I mean, I would say so for sure. And I went through a period too when when I was intermittent fasting. So, I would I wouldn't eat breakfast. And then since I started listening to you guys, I started eating breakfast because it's a good, you know, it's an extra meal that I'm getting more protein in. >> Okay. So, I'm not I'm not to dismiss what you're saying. Okay. So cuz cuz that's how you feel. Uh but there is a very strong psychological component uh to appetite. So uh I I can get somebody I'll use myself as an example because I I I if you've listened to the show, you've probably heard me tell the story, but as a kid I felt like I was really skinny. I was always trying to gain muscle, always trying to get size. And so I conditioned myself that full felt a particular way. And really what it was is I was just stuffing myself. Later when I was eating appropriately, I felt like I wasn't eating enough. had to recalibrate what that actually felt like. On the other end of the spectrum, people undereat for years and years and years or for the whole life. What they're used to satisfaction feeling like is being underfed and being I'm over stuffed is actually this is actually how much this is what you're supposed to feel like. And you kind of got to often times I tell people listen to your to your body, >> but there are cases where I tell people actually we got to ignore your body signals right now. You're not eating enough or you're eating too much. And so I think that's a little bit of probably what's happening because you've had such a history of undereating that eating more of an appropriate amount feels like oh my god I'm eating so much food and I'm not full or I'm too full when in reality it's it's it's more appropriate. >> And this is this is the power of a good coach, right? A good coach uh you know takes in the information that you're giving them and then there there might be a time where I'm like okay I'm going to ask you I'm going to push you in that direction. I I know you feel that way. I'm going to push you a little bit and then I want to see how you feel and respond. And so there's just kind of this eb and flow of taking in the data from you and what you're feeling and what we're doing. A little bit of me stretching you sometimes, having to pull back sometimes. And a good coach will walk you through all this cuz Sal's right. When you've been doing when you've been eating a certain way for so long, we're all guilty of this. I'm guilty the same similar story as S. Uh we've and I've talked about it on the show many times. Like man, I've realized like I ate to be this big guy for so long that my my view of a full plate is totally distorted. And I'm like, I have to re-calibrate that completely. Um, and you're no different. You're just on the other side of the spectrum of that. And so, some of that is is rewiring that. >> You're not used to eating what would be an appropriate amount to to strengthen, build muscle. The reverse diet's going to feel uncomfortable, in other words. So, kind you just kind of kind of accept it's going to feel uncomfortable for a little while um until you start to get used to what it feels like. And then, of course, we we'll have the cut on the other end of it. And then we're going to see. >> Should I be in the gym more than two days a week? >> No. No, I think you're perfectly fine. You're getting stronger. You're doing great. Y >> I I I like strength training twice a week. Uh on your days off, you're tracking your steps. Is that Are you doing that? >> 8 to 10,000 steps a day. And I do I do still do like really long hikes. Like I've got a a long hike this Saturday. 32 32 km hike this Saturday. >> Oh, you're great. Yeah, I like it. You're great. Hey, feed Listen, the day before that long hike, I want you to feed yourself. >> Yeah, >> I will. >> Yeah. So, make sure you get up to 2500 calories the day before. That'll help you. >> Yeah. Fuel up before, fuel up right after. Feed the body on those long I mean, but your your activity level is great. >> Yeah. Stay the course. You're you're moving in the right direction for sure. And and always remind yourself energy, strength, vitality, because those things will help help keep the keep you on course when you're, you know, because otherwise we get too focused on the scale and the body fat when it's not even time for that yet. >> Okay. Is there a specific cue or some way I'm going to know when is a good time for me to start cutting? >> Typically, we want to get you to a point calorically where we can drop you. You're at a nice maintenance of something that feels comfortable. So, someone like you, your activity level, the hiking, strength, trail, all that stuff. I probably would want to cut you closer to 2,000 calories. I think that's a nice maintenance caloric intake where you're not going to feel like you're starving. You've got nice energy. So that probably means we need to get you closer to the higher twos with your calories first. >> Y >> Okay. So you're thinking 2,800. >> Around there. Yeah. Around there, >> give or take. Yep. I know. >> It sounds It sounds crazy. It sounds crazy. It's actually one of my favorite things to do with clients is you tell them that early in the in the process and they're like, they cannot imagine eating that much. And then they get there, they're like, I can't believe I eat and I'm hungry and I eat this every day and I maintain the weight I like. It's just it's an amazing thing when you unlock it, but it takes patience. The psychological part is hard. We've got a lot of rewiring to do from so many years of doing it a different way. And so, be patient with that. And know that if you need help, we have coaches. That's what they do. So, if you need help from us and you want that support, um, >> if you want somebody to walk you through the whole process, uh, we have amazing coaches and that's what they'll do. And they'll change it and adjust it along the way. >> That sounds great. Thank you. >> Yeah, you got it. You got it. Well, thanks for calling in. >> Thank you very much. Keep doing what you're doing. >> Same. Thank you. >> Yeah, I similar similar to the previous, you know, some some of the previous callers. It's just there's a consistency there. But what's interesting, the most interesting thing about this is and I've heard this so many times. I feel like I'm stuffing myself. >> And it's because you're so used to undereating that that's your comfort zone that when you start to, you know, >> Yeah. Especially going from vegan too to Yeah. eating meat again. I'm sure that's satiating. You got to get through that. >> And I know the opposite of it. Like like I it took me a while to understand what a normal meal looks like because normal to me in the past was a lot. >> Totally. Yeah. >> Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mindput Media. All right. I know you like that episode. If you did, check this one out. Walking. It's one of the best things you could do for your health, bar none. But there's a better way to approach it. Yes, you can just walk, but if you follow the right protocol, it's far more effective. Let's talk about >> walking. I can't wait to hear your walking protocol. >> Well, there is well, there is a protocol. So, and I'll start with the first thing, right? Cuz just first off, uh let me start with this. One of the reasons why walking um is such a great form of just activity is because it's low risk of injury. Now,