They Turned Against Their Own Family: Body Language Analysis

We had the best time doing the initial breakdown of the body language and behavior in this video and we decided we'd revisit some of our favorite moments from it. >> So, let's go back real quick. Um, we talked about the ammunition being delivered. Uh, [clears throat] making plans. Tell me about making plans and what you guys talked about. >> Making plans. We all plotted every night and I started realizing what actually going to do this thing on the second night. And so, I started getting ready. >> When was that? used the second night. What do you >> July 1st? >> Okay. >> Cuz when we started July 30th, >> that's when you started making the plan. >> Yeah, that's when we found out he could go sleep. >> I see. Did you guys draw make drawings or write things down or >> I think he had a journal. I think it's under his bed under his bed. >> Is it like a like a journal? Like a notepad or a book? >> It's like a It's like a blank book. Okay. Black book. I think it's like a little case or something. >> So, you think he wrote stuff in there? >> Yeah. I think he was planning in it. >> Um, so then the second day you said that's when you realized that it might actually happen. >> Yeah. >> What made you realize that? >> Um, how serious he was? I mean, he was going through you started um he started planning on taking all his money out of his uh bank and throwing away stuff, throwing away all his stuff. So, you know, >> why did he want to do it? >> That kill. Yeah. Um well mainly two reasons I think. It's um because he just like says he hates everyone. He thinks society is pointless and sort of wanted to kill people and also he wanted to like beat the kill like amount of other famous people like Colin Bond James Holmes. >> Okay. Did you kind of feel that way too like when you guys were talking earlier like >> Yeah. it like do you have a problem with society too you think? >> No, I just or you were just more like the the number of people getting killed was kind of interesting and >> exciting. Yeah. >> Okay. So, um cuz you mentioned a couple names of are those like serial killers or something? >> Well, like Colin. >> Yeah. >> Colin James Holmes. James Holmes is a guy that shot at theater >> in Colorado. >> Yeah. He killed 12 in I don't know >> how many were killed in Coline. >> Coline like 15. >> Okay. I think um >> All right, Chase, what do you got? >> You'll see him picking at this bandage that's around his arm. That stuff is called Koflex. Uh that's pretty normal for people to do. He may have gotten his blood drawn on the way in to see if he was under the influence. That looks like what that is. It's not really It doesn't look like enough to be a bandage. Um I don't know but is suggesting very gently suggesting that the older brother is the mastermind here. The detective is helping him to do that. >> That's when you started making the plan. >> Yeah, that's when you found out you could buy sleep. >> I see. Did you guys draw make drawings or write things down or >> I think he had a journal >> and he refers to the other murderers as famous >> other famous people like Colin But James Holmes. He doesn't call them famous murderers or anything else. It's just famous. They're famous people, which is super weird. And they were made famous by the society that he just said is useless. So, there's a bit of irony here. So, this is one of the best interrogators I've seen in a very long time. I don't say this based on the person uh the suspect, but his composure and the way that he's so brilliant on the basics. He's brilliant at the basics of interrogation. Uh, and if you're watching this, we'd love to have you on the show with us to to chat about this if you'd like. We're seeing pretty open behavior and we're seeing him grab on to suggestions that the interrogator is putting forth to subtly suggest this was wholly somebody else's idea and somebody else's planning. Listen to the softening words the interrogator is using like maybe and kind of, sort of, just. All of those are softening words to help him bite down onto this idea. Scott, what do you got? All right. Uh, yeah, I agree with you. And I thought I thought it was a more of a a bandage situation because when you get your blood drawn, isn't it the little thing thinner than that? So, I get mine done. It's like the little thin thing. >> At a lab, they use thin ones, but hospitals carry the thicker Koflex. >> Okay. >> A lot more. >> Okay. I I don't know. All right. Well, the kid adapts um as the and the interrogator adapts. And the kid's already following him. He's he's following the interrogator when he when he moves the kid moves and he does those things. That's the very first thing we see coming into this one. And you don't have to keep in mind when you're you're mirroring somebody, you're matching someone, you don't have to do the exact same thing. And you'll notice that a lot because when the kid gets stressed, sometimes he'll squeeze his hand real big and the guy will go to his face or he'll he'll rub right here to show the kid he's stressed to put that in the in his head because he's trying to make him feel like he feels like the kid feels. And that's really important here. uh and he's trying to get him to open up and we're going to see that we're going to see that work very well here. This I think this is a textbook example actually of matching and mirroring. They both got their arm arm on the table when when the kid puts his on the cop puts his on the text puts his on and their arms cross in front of them. Beautiful execution on all that. Then after this, he'll move to mirroring his breathing cuz the kid's breathing gets a little bit odd in there. And you'll watch the detective his does too. When the kid size real big, he'll sigh, too. And then he'll put his hand to his face and do that. He's showing him that he feels the same stress he's show that he's feeling. Now, this may not seem important, but he's executing perfectly one of the most potent tools you can possibly do. Mark talks about the breathing in and out and matching the the breathing as well all the time because that will when someone is in the hospital and a doctor wants to try to calm them down, the doctor will start, you know, the the guys who know about it or women who know about it, they'll start breathing at the same rate the patient's breathing and that helps you calm down. I don't know why that is, but that's what happens. Um, but I've the things this guy's doing is he's talking to him, trying to act like those things. I've done this before with a with a a kid I was talking to and this this works because I think this kid may not have had a father figure that was uh cool with him or nice to him. So, he needs that. So, he needs an older person. Tell him that he's, you know, talking to him in the fashion he is. I'll get into details later on as we go through this. Just get the kid starts scratching his eye and rubs his eye and the detective does the same thing. It's not the exact same thing, but he gets really close and does it. So that's that's really important. And you start hearing that rhythm as they talk back and forth. It's really easy to talk to someone and you'll talk for a minute and then there'll be that little pause and then they'll say something, you'll talk right back. He's waiting to get that rhythm going. So it's almost like a pingpong thing going back and forth. So he's matching him with with his vernacular and his words and his tone and his cadence and he's mirroring his body language. He's mirroring his breathing and he's got that pingpong with the conversation going back and forth. It's really and he may not even know he's doing this. That's the thing about he may be so good he may not even realize that's what he's doing but he's connecting with that kid and that's why we're going to hear this that kid start talking and talking and talking. Mark, what do you got? Cloaked is the sponsor for this video and they asked me to do something I wasn't sure I wanted to see. So I put my phone number into their site and I couldn't believe what came back. You don't realize how exposed your personal information is until you actually see it being exposed. and his dad brokers selling your information, your phone, your email, even sensitive stuff. And they sell it over and over and over again. And the crazy part, you agreed to do this in the buried terms that nobody reads. And every time you sign up for something, you're just feeding that machine. Most services try to clean all that up after the fact, but that's not the real problem. You keep creating that same problem every time you sign up for something. That's where cloaked is different. It shows you where your data is exposed, and it helps remove it. But more importantly, it lets you create burner emails, phone numbers, and usernames on the fly. So when you sign up for something, you're not tied to your real identity. So now they're not buying your information anymore. They're buying junk, and you're playing them. And on top of that, it monitors the dark web, filters spam calls, has a built-in VPN, password manager, and even a $1 million identity theft insurance policy. Go to cloaked.com/tbp and you'll get a free security scan and you'll see how exposed you are right now. It only takes a few seconds and you'll see exactly what's going on out there. The link is below so click it and get 30% off any subscription. Uh yeah, so talking of micro micro cultures, Greg, uh there are times when I just can't work out what this subject is saying. I don't understand the micro culture of the of But I did pick up this thing. It's like a blank book. It's like a It's like a blank book. >> And [clears throat] he then becomes very energized in symmetry with his gestures. And he also illustrates that book. He shows us the the book essentially. And I think he tells us it's under the under the bed. I could be wrong cuz I find it sometimes very hard to work out what he's saying. But it's interesting because suddenly his gestures stop being flaccid. They start to become energized. They go into symmetry. He illustrates or kind of mimes for us perfectly this book. So very probably the book exists. uh he very probably it is under the bed and very probably even if the book doesn't exist he wants us to think and know that a book exists because I think he wants to wants to suggest there is some evidence out there that says he's not fully involved and somebody else is absolutely and most fully involved in this and he's seen an opportunity to really put that across and illustrate that. So that for me is a massive difference from how he started out which was asymmetrical and these kind of floppy gestures. This defeat suddenly becomes something um more more of a celebration. Now um you know it's interesting that he talks about essentially the interviewer here for me feeds him the idea of that it's not about society it's about numbers. Now, I don't know whether there's been some conversation beforehand or some information around that this isn't about a social grudge of any sort. Um, uh, but the interviewer seems to be putting this feed the idea to him that it's not about society, it's about the numbers. >> Do you have a problem with society too, do you think? >> Just or you were just more like the the number of people getting killed was kind of interesting and exciting. >> It's interesting that the society the grudge against society would would be more kind of tropic of of of sociopathic or even psychopathic. You you imagine those extreme uh you know cartoon versions of the psychopath. They've got some you know massive crazy grudge against against society. You know at the moment everybody's trying to move away from that and go it's just kind of a numbers game. You just want to get either status around that or you know uh you like counting numbers, you like collecting uh things. Interesting. Interesting idea. Let's see where that uh goes into. Uh Chase, what do you got on this one? >> There we go. >> Oh, maybe you did. Uh Scott, >> no. Greg, >> one more. [laughter] >> Yeah, there it is. >> No, we're disaster, isn't it? Mark, you hit I'm going to go to the very last thing I have here first and then go backward because you said something that is key. Many years ago, when I was dealing with people in interrogating, I I remember one of the most interesting things I ever learned. A guy actually saying, "Well, if I killed a bunch of people and did something in terrorist activity, people remember my name. If I just work the rest of my they won't." That's a different mindset and a different way of being. Killing 50 people, putting you at the beginning. And you have to be able to get into that psyche to be able to talk to that guy. Now, let's back up a minute. Because I look the way I look, because I have a blank stare, people probably think I'm an aggressive all the time interrogator. Not true at all. Actually, I'm the other way. I believe that you have to get the person calmed down enough to be able to build rapport so that you can actually do what we do. The skill set of terrifying somebody isn't is the captor's job, not mine. My job is to do something else. Now, if I'm captor, different story. And I've captured a lot of people in my life overdoing things both in real war and in training. And the training, trust me, you wouldn't think it was training the way it was carried out. So I've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people react. One of the things we know is that when a person's brain is consumed by terror and fear, number one, they can't remember. Number two, they're going to say whatever you want to hear. And number three, nothing is reliable. So it's a waste of time at that moment. The other interesting thing is the human brain prioritizes input and stimulus when it's in terror. One of the best things we know is this kid is not in terror. Now, this guy has managed through what he's done to calm him just a bit so he can start building rapport. And you know how you know that? He's playing with that bandage. He wouldn't he wouldn't notice that bandage on his arm if he were in sheer terror because it's not a threat. And a great example, one of the things when you're captured often people don't realize their bladder is full until 15 minutes after they're captured. and then they start begging for the bathroom. You know that their fight or flight is starting to tone down and you can go over and talk to them then and you can start to get some control. You're also giving them relief. So, there's a lot of things that go into play here. Watch this kid. This guy's been so good that this kid becomes non-confrontational and nonjudges non-judgmental. So, he opens up. Look at his body language, Mark. Exactly what you said. He asked him a question about a book. He accesses over, hey, he's remembering this book. Then he starts defining the book with his hands. And I think this kid is opening up because he thinks now he doesn't yet feel any connection to this guy. So he feels like he's embarrassed to tell him what he did. That's a beautiful place to be. Once you get to a point where the person's embarrassed now, you lose some ability to get information out of him. He's not there yet. He still feels like it's okay to talk this way. We'll watch that change through these videos. When he's doing this, it's likely his first idea of awareness of what's going on and he's comforting himself. We all said that. And I agree with you, Chase. It could be co I mean co-and over a um over a piece of gauze. It could be could have scraped his elbow. Who knows? But I do agree with you. It's it's some cobband stuff. He does stuff. >> Throwing away stuff. >> Stuff throwing away all this stuff. So, you know, >> so he's emphasizing stuff when he says something, which probably means that means something to him. We gave our stuff away. So, the game is over. We're done. He does some emotional accessing and touches his face. Now, this interrogation thing, as you start paying attention, you got get to see what a good interrogator does. He's trying to disarm the guy, bring him down to a comfort level, create enough rapport, the guy feels safe talking to him, and just wait and watch what he does to him later. This is this is the easy part, waiting for him to calm in, but knowing when and how to talk to the kid so the kid starts to feel you and you can say, "Hey, man, I get it. I better do this than sit in your house and nobody know who you are." And you can see he's not judging. He's doing all that other stuff that you guys are talking about. Agree with you guys 100%. And the last thing you see is this kid. I work with New Yorkers all the time. And New Yorkers will have a tendency to talk at the same time. Pretty common. This kid's doing that with non-verbals. He's going and confirming the guy's question before the guy finishes. Chase. Exactly. To your point, he's being trained how to respond and he's doing it quickly. >> So, let's go back real quick. Um, we talked about the ammunition being delivered. Uh, making plans. Tell me more about making plans and what you guys talked about. >> Making plans. We all plotted every night and I started realizing we were actually going to do this thing on the second night. And so I started getting ready. >> When was that? Used the second night. What? >> July 1st. >> Okay. Cuz we started June 30th. >> That's when you started making the plan. >> Yeah, that's when we found out you could sleep. >> I see. Did you guys draw make drawings or write things down or >> I think he had a journal down. I think it's under his bed. >> Under his bed. >> Is it like a like a journal like a notepad or a book? >> It's like a It's like a blank book. >> Black book. I think it's like a little case. >> So you think he wrote stuff in there? >> Yeah. I [clears throat] think he was planning in it. >> Um so then the second day you said that's when you realized that it might actually happen. >> Yep. What made you realize that? >> Um, how serious he was. I mean, he was going through he started um he started planning on taking all his money out of his uh bank and throwing away stuff, throwing away all his stuff. So, you know, >> why did he want to do that? >> Kill people. >> Yeah. >> Um well, mainly two reasons. I think it's um because he just like says he hates everyone. He thinks society is pointless and so he wanted to kill people and also he wanted to like beat the kill like amount of other famous people like Colin Bond and James Egan. >> Okay. Did you kind of feel that way too like when you guys were talking earlier like >> Yeah. Like do you have a problem with society too you think? I just or you were just more like the the number of people getting killed was kind of interesting and >> exciting. Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, um cuz you mentioned a couple names of are those like serial killers or something? >> Well, like Coline. >> Yeah. >> Coline James Holmes. James Holmes is a guy that shot a theater >> in Colorado. >> Yeah. He killed 12 in. >> How many were killed in Coline? >> Coline? I don't know. 15. >> Okay. I think um >> tell me what you think I mean when I say if you don't come clean and be completely honest that you're never going to heal from this and that your father's never going to heal from it. Um, people say my dad just wants to brush things under the rug, so to speak, and say that, you know, his daughter didn't know nothing about this. And that's I mean, I think we've established I did know, but he says, you know, my daughter did not mastermind this. And I mean, I didn't. And I mean, I know that [music] all this looked bad and everything, but I didn't know what they went in and did that night. All right, I'll go first on this one. Uh, the main thing that was established here for me and and for me personally is really important is that Dr. Phil chews gum while he's [laughter] on TV and he knows he's on video. Doesn't bug him a bit [laughter] with you, Dr. Phil. Um, I don't think she understood the question. Again, this is one of those intellectual uh miniatures we're dealing with here. Did not had earthly idea what that meant. Not whatsoever. So, she goes back to her her nor to her baseline of of just talking and trying to talk her way through it. And she's talking quiet and she tries to tries to get through it. It just it gets worse and worse. I think goes a little sideways on her because she starts talking about things that have nothing to do with what he asked her. So, u I think it's a a great example of of showing how she fakes her way through through answers. So, Greg, what do you got? >> Yeah, I I agree. I saw that. That's a learned behavior to do something other people do when they're having a stressful answer to a question cuz she's not stressed. Her breathing is not up. Her blink rate's not up. None of that stuff we expect in fight or flight. So, I would look, she swallows once, maybe she's thinking. And then she does the one thing that makes me think there's a lot of facade here. The reason she says, "I think we've established that I did know." >> I mean, I think we've established I did know. >> And she says it, all of her body language, everything is fluid, unlike anything else in the video. My guess is that's the person that her friends know. That's the person that people knew that she was not trying to kill. It's normal inonation. It's kind of congruent body language. It's just a normal kind of a sentence in the middle of all this other stuff we're looking at. I didn't mean she closed her eyes. Again, Scott, I agree with you. I don't think this is a brilliant woman. I don't think she has any clue what he's talking about. I think he knows that he's sitting across the table and he's trying to get through to her and say, "Do you understand that?" I And then she goes to something about her dad and her dad's sweeping it under the rug and it's Tuesday and I like hamburgers and it's not chaff and redirect. It's conversation. So, I don't think we're dealing with somebody who really has their act together. But I also think that that line shows us that there's something else to her that we can't see in this interview. That's what I got. Chase, what do you got? >> Yeah, totally agree with you guys. I think Phil does exactly the right thing here according to me anyway by redirecting his approach to a directive commanding approach. So, he's no longer asking questions. He's saying, "Tell me this." So, there was no question. There was a command that was a an kind of an order there for her. and with within his little let's call it a question to her, there was a technique I won't talk about, takes too long to explain, but if you spotted it, put it in the comments. And it's not an interrogation technique, it's a persuasion technique that was used there. Uh, Phil matches her behavior perfectly as he's wrapping up this initial question of his. Her arms are under the table. His hands are animated while he's speaking. And right as he's going to for her to start answering, his hands go under the table. He assumes the same exact body posture as her. It is masterful. Pretty good approach there. And when she we're talking about her forcing these words out, Greg, what was that word you came up with? >> Yeah. No, I said we should use gullum from Lord of the Rings with the coughing out words. >> Yeah. So, when she's galluming, uh, she does it with the word mastermind. She forces that word out, mastermind. >> Do not mastermind this. >> And we see she's more comfortable with a denial when she's quoting someone else. >> He says, you know, my daughter did not mastermind this. And I mean, I didn't. >> So, where would we see this? She develops this psychological process throughout her life. She uses power by proxy and now she's using denial by proxy. So if someone else is saying it, it becomes more powerful. I'm I'm letting someone else take that away. So she's using proxy in multiple different ways here in her language and in her behavior. Dr. Phil closes out the clip with a brilliant full open arm display. So right as the clip is ending, you can see him do this to kind of get her probably to keep talking there. Uh even though we cut that out. Uh so let's I'll wrap up with a hallmark psychopathic trait and this is impulsivity. When you hear somebody say it just happened which we did. So impulsivity is one of the hallmarks in the diagnostic manual. Mark >> there's a bitter taste in her mouth. >> I did know. >> So I think she's slightly disgusted with herself. So I think there's slight disgust at she's now gone down the road of like admitting uh that that she has been caught uh in this. Still plenty of innocent child role there with uh I didn't >> I didn't. >> We hear her first metaphor which is um sweeping sweeping under the rug. But again that metaphor is to do with someone else. So, it's not a metaphor about her feelings. It's a metaphor about somebody else's feelings. And and to to Scott's point there of uh you know uh maybe she's not didn't understand the question so well, well, that's probably because Dr. Phil did perceptual positioning there. He went he said, you know, what do you think I mean when I say X? Well, that means that you've got to kind of take their position and go, okay, imagine I'm Dr. Phil, what do I think he would be thinking right now? That perceptual positioning is part of what we call cognitive empathy. Being able to go, well, there's there's me and I'm different from Dr. Phil and Dr. Phil might think differently and so I'm going to become them and take their position. She can't do that. She can't there's there's just her. There's just her and there isn't other people's feelings. He didn't even ask for a feeling. He was just like, "What do you think I'm thinking when I say this?" Not even asking, "What do you think I feel?" And the step up from that in in empathy would be, "Uh, what do you think I think about my feelings?" Well, that's kind of what a therapist does when they sit with you is is to go, "You know, I think you might be feeling, you know, about yourself like this." That is a huge level of abstraction. And this particular personality type though I don't know you know what they what what it shows up in in the DSM and and what they what they might kind of rank it is rank it as in there. Uh they often have quite a difficulty with abstract thoughts. It's very much process driven. Here's what's happening to me right now. And perceptual positioning is really hard uh to do there. That's what I got on that one for you. Tell me what you think I mean when I say if you don't come clean and be completely honest that you're never going to heal from this and that your father's never going to heal from it. >> People say my dad just wants to brush things under the rug, so to speak, and say that, you know, his daughter didn't know nothing about this. And that's I mean I think we've established I did know but he says you know my daughter did not mastermind this and I mean I didn't and I mean I know that all this looked bad and everything but I didn't know what they went in and did that night. >> Nick, how involved were you with the casting and everything? I mean this this kid is amazing in the in the film. He's an incredible lead. I've never seen >> people know Nick Robinson. >> He was given good >> Yeah. He's a really good actor. I mean, he was in that Kings this summer and he's in Jurassic World. He's a a great actor and Nick was there for all the casting uh uh you know, all of the the auditions. >> I was sitting there, but >> yeah, but you had you you always gave your opinion. >> I I was like I I I saw that girl Morgan Sailor on Homeland and I think during the season she like went to rehab or something and I was just like a she's a perfect rehab girl. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, >> that was the only >> He pushed he pushed for Morgan Sailor like crazy. >> You just you had a personal connection to her right away. >> No, but uh [laughter] >> just felt like you knew her. >> Felt like I knew her from some land. >> Yeah. >> And this kid this kid is I mean he carries the the movie in many ways. He's in every scene of the film and he's he's fantastic. How do you know when you're casting someone that they're going to be able to do that after this long? you know, you've worked with some of the biggest actors of all time, but you're casting a relatively unknown kid to carry the weight of of of a movie like this. How did you know that he was up to the task? >> Well, you you start with uh having an idea of who the character is. And in this case, even though it's not Nick, it's certainly an extension of him in certain ways. I have that in the back of my head. I'm looking at an actor and I want to see if he has the qualities, some of the qualities that I see in Nick in terms of, you know, his honesty and his depth and the way he plays things. And then to be honest with you, you know, he auditions and in the case of uh Nick Robinson, he auditioned with uh the guy that plays his friend in the in the movie, Devin Bostic, who plays uh Adam, and they clicked immediately. It was like as if they had known each other for forever. And I said, "Oo, that's that's what it needs to be, and it needs to feel like that." >> Right. >> And another thing, other than casting, we all stayed at a hotel, the Hyatt House at this uh uh and we all hung out after every day. And that kid when he first showed up, he had like a book about junkies. He had like watched some YouTube and he started asking me questions about it. And I just I would try to fill them in as best as possible. But since the writing was done by us and Matt, um, he kind of got our sensibilities. So did Devvin from just hanging out with us. Try to help him with that in that sense. >> Chase, what did you think about all that? [laughter] >> I know. I know. I know. I couldn't believe it either. Believe it either. >> [laughter] >> So, I thought that was interesting because his dad sort of trying to pump him up, but they're not talking about all the horrible stuff that must have happened when he was in rehab and doing all those kind of things, you know, because there's a lot and he's done a whole movie about his kid going through this process and the things that they've experienced together. And there's got to be a lot of emotion in there between them both having, you know, having thought about that when they brea, well, you know, I knew that we had to do something and that kid's thinking, I bet you, you know, yeah, you did. I remember y'all trying to kick me out of the house and things like that. All those things I'm sure are coming up. >> Well, and that is something that he'll actually talk about because he gets really exercised once really excited once he's going, you know, I taught this actor how to be what it was like being a junkie. >> And that kid when he first showed up, he had like a book about junkies. He had like watched some YouTube and he started asking me questions about it and I just I would try to fill them in as best as possible. So, you know, there's there's there's some excitement around that and the rest of it, it's like, no, I was I was just in the room. >> Nick was there for all the casting uh uh you know, all of the the auditions sitting there, but >> I I I had no opinion. I had no no agency at all, but I do have agency when I'm a drug addict. I do I do know what I'm doing around that. >> The facial expressions he's making are not big at all. I mean, there's not that's the thing that's And everybody's going, "Oh, he's autistic. I know he's this or he's a psychopath. I know he's all that." You can't tell any of that from this conversation, but that's going to come up. But I just think it's interest I I hate to say, you know, his brain was fried. But there comes a point where like um you were talking about Chase, where you your brain just goes, you know what? You've used all this up. We've we've worn this part of it out. These things don't function properly anymore. You just whail on them all the time. >> Pleasure can restructure those things for you. >> Right. So, a couple of things for me. Anybody notice anything odd about Rob? I mean, everybody knows Rob Briner. We've watched him since the 70s. He's been front of a camera and behind a camera. He's a passionate dude. Usually, there's not much passion in this. Not much at all. If you see it, he's calm. I think it's contained. And I think these guys just watching every time Nick wants to say something, he he'll pause. Mark, to your point earlier about him not having confidence, he tries to throw in an answer that could have been a good tag team for them. Hey, it was good writing. Could would have been a good joke. But he gets stepped on as his dad who is now in the director role because he called we call the director role forward not the dad role. He starts to then talk about how great an actor this kid is. >> He's a really good actor. I mean he was in that Kings this summer and he's in Jurassic World. He's a a great actor >> and he's doing a good thing I think but the kid stops cold in the middle. >> That's because the kid doesn't know how to look at somebody. He's he's uncomfortable in these in public situations. I think any kind of social sit situation. So, he hasn't really learned how to look at somebody and let them know that you're looking at them. It's your turn to talk. Greg, you'll always start doing this. So, we all know to get ready for you. Your hand always goes up. Mark, sometimes you you'll see him puff up a little bit and start talking. And then and the same for Chase. Chase usually doesn't uh he just waits for, you know, for somebody, say, "Hey, Chase, what about whatever?" And then I'll just blurt it out in the middle of anything and start talking. But this kid, he doesn't know how to make that eye contact. It's hard to make eye contact on here for us. But he doesn't know how to look at somebody and wait. So they'll see him go, "Oh, he's got something to say." You know, and pause there and he doesn't understand those cues. >> And he he's just take he only takes up space when someone hands it to him. >> Yeah. >> And the questions directed to Nick. >> Nick, how involved were you with the casting? >> But Rob immediately starts answering. He uh listing the credits and framing this this lead actor's credentials. He owns the space before Nick is really allowed to step in. >> I've never seen people know Nick Robinson. was given good. >> Yeah. >> And Nick is kind of displaced uh by this. And I wonder if this would have been vastly different. If it was just Nick and some other guy, if his behavior would have been super different, >> I think all the statements are just humor adjacent. They're they're just they're not they have no emotion in them. This is a this is a movie about addiction, a father and son, and this is the father and son who made it together. like the audience is there to hear the emotional impact this had on both of them. And a movie producer should know that that's that's the goal of this thing is to get people emotional, get them to watch, but he's he's not even talking about himself. And no one names the core issue. The story is about Nick's addiction. Nobody's talking about it. The character is based on Nick. Nick picked somebody who looked like rehab for the movie and neither of them says that directly. And I think it's just strange. >> And what we can't see is family behavior patterns and people trigger each other and they get into these rituals and dance. And that could easily be why we see him contained around his dad because if at home they have escalation because of things, you could see a difference. And I'm not beating up Rob by any stretch or either one of them because human behavior is human behavior. And there's often a rub between parents and children. This is just a pronounced rub that we know how it ends and it's awful. >> So, Greg, I'm gonna sing signal that I want to go by bringing up these scissors. I don't have a mic. Are >> you threatening me? [laughter] >> Yeah, I don't have a microphone. But I just want to point out what Nick is doing, which is this is this is essentially a a regulator. It it tells everybody, you know, I'm going to speak now. I'm going to hold court, and when I take that away, then it's not me anymore. But he keeps he keeps flopping it around and and being indecisive with it. So again that body language that use of that indecisive use of the regulator of the microphone again comes across as unself assured whereas Rob Rhino is you know it's there most of the time just saying I'll be doing the to Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're clearly your turn now. You've you have the can. You have the >> I don't think he understand. I I think it's his he never uses he never uses a microphone or anything like that. That's what I think. [snorts] >> I I think you might be right, Scott. >> I think I think it's just discomfort with that, you know, because he's not used so he's goofing around with it and he's sort of learning it, I guess, as he's as he's going along. As odd as that sounds, you know, you all remember it's like when you first the first time you go up and you give a talk, how odd that is, how weird that feels. Now you go give one, don't even remember what you talked about because it's so nothing. So that's what it's like for Rob Riner and that guy who's who's the interviewer. But this kid's never had had one before. So when to bring it up, only when he wants to talk does he bring it up. He's not ready. He doesn't hold it there so he can just start talking. >> I think he's probably done a bunch of interviews and had a had a mic. I think Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think he's done. >> Why do you think Why do you think that? What tells you that? I'm missing it. >> Well, because because he's not so uncomfortable that he that he doesn't know exactly what's happening. He just doesn't know. He's not aware of how to treat the tool because his mind is somewhere clearly somewhere else. He's he's disengaged with the tool. He understands what the tool is for. He's not there with it on the table or or down here somewhere talking. He knows it has to come up, but it's disengaged. It's flaccid. >> Well, and Mark, if you would go watch I'm holding my mic. So, [laughter] if you if you would go watch the the entire interview, you'll hear him say that his father is not a great communicator at home. So, this is a person. This is a role. We all have that role. We all have a role at home and a role outside. If you meet us and we're, you know, having a bad day, we might not be quite the same people you see on screen always. Just because humans have more than one role in their life. And I think because his father is so comfortable, that could even be even more, you know, now does what does your dad expect from you? He's probably told you what he expects and how you need to work and all that before you show up because you got a you got different relationship with your father and a director of a movie you're working on than you would with people, you know. We're the four of us come at this whole thing with different angles. We came from different parts of our lives. It's why we're respectful of each other's opinion. And we don't usually say, "Well, you're wrong and here's why." We say, "Well, my experience has been X, but it's different when you got that power differential." >> Nick, how involved were you with the casting and everything? I mean, this this kid is amazing in the in the film. He's an incredible lead. I've never seen >> people know Nick Robinson. >> He was given good >> Yeah, he's a really good actor. I mean, he was in that Kings this summer and he's in Jurassic World. He's a a great actor and Nick was there for all the casting uh uh you know, all of the the auditions. sitting there. But >> yeah, but you had you you always gave your opinion. >> I I was like I I I saw that girl Morgan Sailor on Homeland and I think during the season she like went to rehab or something and I was just like a she's a perfect rehab girl. >> That was the only >> He pushed he pushed for Morgan Sailor like crazy. >> You just you had a personal connection to her right away? >> No, but uh [laughter] >> just felt like you knew her. >> Felt like I knew her from some land. >> Yeah. No. And this kid this kid is I mean he carries the the movie in many ways. He's in every scene of the film and he's he's fantastic. How do you know when you're casting someone that they're going to be able to do that after this long? You know, you've worked with some of the biggest actors of all time, but you're casting a relatively unknown kid to carry the weight of of a movie like this. How did you know that he was up to the task? >> Well, you you start with uh having an idea of who the character is. And in this case, even though it's not Nick, it's certainly an extension of him in certain ways. I have that in the back of my head. I'm looking at an actor and I want to see if he has the qualities, some of the qualities that I see in Nick in terms of, you know, his honesty and his depth and the way he plays things. And then to be honest with you, you know, he auditions and in the case of uh Nick Robinson, he auditioned with uh the guy that plays his friend in the in the movie Devin Bastik who plays uh Adam and they clicked immediately. It was like as if they had known each other for forever. And I said, "Oo, that's that's what it needs to be. It needs to feel like that." >> Right. And another thing other than casting, we all stayed at a hotel, the Hyatt House at this uh uh and we all hung out after every day. And that kid when he first showed up, he had like a book about junkies. He had like watched some YouTube and he started asking me questions about it and I just I would try to fill them in as best as possible. But since the writing was done by us and Matt, um, he kind of got our sensibilities. So did Devon from just hanging out with us. Try to help him with that in that sense. >> All right, fellas. This is another good and we'll see you next time. >> Don't forget to subscribe. Too late. You're already out. [laughter] What? [music] Heat.