They're Peaceful Until They're Not — A Scholar Says the West Is Already in Phase Two

If you look at pictures from these Middle Eastern nations, you will be amazed. If you look at a 1920s picture, you'll think you're looking at Europe. >> There feels like a sense of a warning that you're giving the West about Islam, that we're not taking it seriously enough. >> Most of what we call the Muslim world, which again, North Africa, the Middle East, but all into Asia, the vast majority of that land was taken by conquest. So now you fast forward to today, and your average Westerner, your European has no idea about this. You have to understand who and what you're bringing in. Who's the enemy? everyone who's not a Muslim. Okay. Are there Christians who are nominal Christians who want to engage in violence? And yeah, of [music] course. >> Can Islam have an enlightenment and truly reform itself? >> You or Sam Harris, Muslims don't care what you think? >> If you had to put forward a thesis about how the West should think about Islam, what would it be? >> The thesis would be that Islam is um not just another religion. It's an entire coherent political system. A lot of people are approaching Sharia, which is usually loosely translated as Islamic law. And they're they have no problem condemning it. A lot of Americans, you know, Greg Abbott, Trump Abbott said there's no room for Sharia in um in Texas, for example. >> And that's all well and good, but I think as people start learning, well, guess what? Sharia and Islam are inherently the same. You know, one I call one Islam the descriptive name of the religion and Sharia is the prescriptive application. So that's I guess that would be my ultimate thesis which is you know maybe you see what Sharia is maybe you don't like it maybe you find it incompatible with the west but guess what that's not just some weird accretion that some radicals do that is Islam. All right. So, when I'm reading the stuff you write, when I hear you talk on the internet, there feels like a sense of a warning that you're giving the West about Islam that we're not taking it seriously enough. Something along those lines. Does that feel fair? >> From the very beginning of Islam in the 7th century, after Muhammad dies and Arabia is consolidated under the banner of Islam, they go on the jihad according to Islamic teaching. And in one century from the death of Muhammad 632 to 732, they literally have conquered threearters of the Christian world which most people have no idea about. Okay. >> When people hear of countries like Egypt and Syria or Turkey, they just have in their mind this vague idea that they were always either Muslim or kind of Eastern. >> Yeah. No, they were actually if you went in the seventh century that was Christianity was more ingrained in Egypt, in Turkey, in Syria, in Morocco, Moritania, and in Tunisia. You know, the father of Western theology, Augustine, he's from Tunisia. He's a North African. He was a Berber. Okay? And most of the the early fathers were Egyptians and Syrians and so forth. And uh you had five seas, five major centers. One was Rome. The other four, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Constantinople, all got conquered by Islam. So it was a long constant war that went on literally for over millennium, okay? Century after century, whenever Muslims could. Obviously, there were times when it was an eb and flow and due to the vicissitudes of circumstances and Muslims weren't strong enough, they wouldn't attack. But [snorts] any such time that they were strong, they conquered. So I just told you I gave you the date 732 one century because that's the battle of tours and that's where Islam is finally stopped in the center of France. Spain has now been conquered. All of North Africa has been conquered. [snorts] The greater Middle East has been conquered and then later Turkey gets conquered which is one of the most ancient Christian regions. That's where St. Paul sent many of his letters. It features in the book of Revelation. There was a long constant war and annexation of Christian territories by Islam historically just as a fact. And why did they do it? So even if you find a historian who is willing to talk about this, they'll give them their national names. Okay? They'll talk about the Arab conquest. They'll talk about the the Moors in Spain. They'll talk about the Turks and they'll talk about the Tatars and the Mongols. They'll call them Sarissens. And when you hear it that way, as I did in college, you're prone to just think, okay, these are different waring groups, just like in Europe. The French and the English are waring. It's not there's no ideological component necessarily, but if you dig into the sources as I have the primary sources including from the Muslim sources, they see themselves not necessarily as Turks or Arabs, but as Muslims first and foremost and their rationale for war on whoever, let's say Christians is you're an infidel and uh you know that's the rule of Islam and we have to attack you and give you the three choices, convert, die or pay tribute and be a secondass citizen etc etc. So my point is it was a long constant massive war that went on that swallowed up most of the Christian West. Okay, you know we call it the west because it west of what? Well, west it it was when we think of the west now it has its own kind of connotation but historically in the medieval era it was it was west because it was the westernmost portion of Christianity that didn't get conquered. M okay it was the final appendage Europe and there was a constant warfare constant struggle that went on you know Islamic pirates would go as far as Iceland in the 16th century for raids and they would come back with loads of slaves America's first war most people are unaware as a nation following independence from Britain was with Muslims who were again again using the same logic and it's interesting because it comes out in the writings of Thomas Jefferson um you know this paragon of enlightenment who had of course obviously forgotten about those Muslims and didn't really understand what was going on. But they were enslaving American sailors in their vessels. They would raid the pirates, Muslim pirates from Barbary. [snorts] And Adams, John Adams and Jefferson met with one of the um ambassadors from Barbrey and basically and we have the existing letter where where Jefferson wrote a letter to Congress saying what happened in the meeting and he says we told him look can't we just be friends? We have nothing against you. you can do your religion and let's let's engage in trade let's help each other and then Jefferson writes and the man answered us and said it's in our Quran you're the enemy you're the infidel we must wage war on you etc etc okay so I tell you all that by way to answer your question about the warning okay so this has been going on for uh over a millennium >> this being we are ideologically driven we are going to wage warfare to conquer the infra >> and we've have conquered most of what we call the Muslim world which North Africa, the Middle East, but all into Asia. Okay. And in sub-Saharan Africa, the vast majority of that land was taken by conquest. So I mentioned what was taken from Christians. Iran was the Zerastrian great civilization that was conquered. Um the Pakistan, okay, which is land of the pure. Well, those are just Hindus who finally were conquered and converted to Islam. Okay, even in Indonesia, there's this sort of story about no, no, it didn't spread through violence. there was actually a lot of coercion once Muslims grew in numbers. Um, so, so that's the warning. So now you fast forward to today and your average Westerner European has no idea about this or what they know is colonialism and you know evil Europeans and now we're going to make it up for them. I mean that's the logic in the UK for example. That's why it's flooded with Pakistanis because uh we're making up for our sins in colonizing their lands and we're bringing them here. That kind of logic. And to you that's patently ridiculous. >> It's patently ridiculous because okay uh you have to understand what you who and what you're bringing in and the lot. Okay. So now you've brought in let's say the UK and the really big ones UK, Germany and France but also Sweden um you know and the numbers of Muslims are growing in Italy. Spain just gave a blanket acceptance of like a million migrants which is kind of insane. Spain went through 800 years of war to evict Muslims. Okay, the reconista literally because they couldn't get along and now they're bringing in. So it just shows you the massive disconnect between the western world with with its history [snorts] and the Muslim world like I said is continuity. So okay when Muslims come to Europe so just to explain to you some ideas according to this Islamic rule Islamic law Sharia Muslims are forbidden from voluntarily migrating to live under non-Muslim rule infidel rule you have to live in the lands of Sharia where Islam is Islam is dominates okay why would you go live with the enemy because the non-Muslim that's stated that oh yeah that's stated okay but now there's caveats okay which I'll get to So that I mean but that is the normal state of affairs. They're the enemy. We're the Muslims. The Quran is full of this whole doctrine which um it's in Arabic it's called which means Muslims must only help befriend like side with and be loyal to Muslims of the um um basically means the super national uh Islamic community that transcends race you know language ethnicity and geography. [snorts] and they must have hatred for the non-Muslim and when and whenever they can they must wage war and try to subjugate them. Okay, that is a a legit doctrine straight out of the Quran. I've written a lot about it. I can give you some verses if you want. But so that's the driving doctrine that propelled the historic jihad. It still exists. Muslims still think this way. So then you bring masses of them into Europe. I mentioned main countries uh England and UK and whatnot. And if you look there, yeah, there's a lot of problems, okay? I mean, nobody's going to argue that if you want to be honest. Of course, there are certain people want to put their head in the sand and say, "No, no, everything's fine." But no, there's massive problems. You probably heard of this Restore Britain >> New Party that came out. I mean, there's a reason why people >> and if you hear the words of what he's saying, uh, I think his last name is low. Um, you know, it's it's on the one hand, it's refreshing because it's basically what everyone there is thinking. You know, on the other hand, it's like I can't you would never would have imagined someone talking that way a decade ago. But why is he because it's a reflection. >> Let me plant a flag for people. So, some people that are watching this right now, their base assumption is going to be uh Rupert Low is a wild bigot. >> Uh you are giving this because you've got some axe to grind around bigotry and we'll get to growing up as an Egyptian Christian and what that means and all of that. >> Um but I want to so I wanted to get all of that out on the table. so that people understand what the sort of core thesis is, what you're worried about, that there's all this historical continuity. >> Um, Muslims are driven by a core doctrine. That core doctrine says that you should be going in and conquering, um, >> based on the religious doctrine. We've got people now going into these countries, uh, call it immigration through conquest. You didn't say that, but I know your work. I'm familiar enough that I know that that's a a thing on the table. >> Okay. Now, I want to back up and I want to walk through what the foundational beliefs are that you have that lead you to that >> because I want the people watching this to be able to draw a well-informed conclusion as to whether this is just bigotry or whether there really is a reason to be concerned about this. >> Um, so >> how did you grow up? Your parents are uh immigrants from Egypt, right? >> Uh, but they're not Muslim. So give me that background, what that was like and most importantly how it informs your views. >> Okay. So my um correct I was born here. My parents immigrated from Egypt. Um they're what's called Coptic Christians. Okay. And the word Coptic is uh basically a corruption of the Greek word agyptos which is where we get our English Egyptian. It's agyptos. And so when the Arabs invaded and they met the agyptos they just called them gipped. They dropped the first and last syllables and gipped. eventually found its way to us as cop. Okay. So, but now it means you know the indigenous inhabitants of Egypt pre-Islam who still exist in minorities and are Christians because like I was telling you those countries were still Christian when the um when the Arabs invaded and Egypt was conquered around 6401 AD. Okay. So now here's the thing, and I know where you're going with this cuz people have said this to me before, which is, "Oh, you you it's because you're a Christian and you feel like Muslims took over your country and you have an axe to grind." And I've heard that before. Now, here's the the the truth that most people don't understand. And if you find an Egyptian or a cop from Egypt, most of them are going to tell you, "Yeah," which is actually a lot of Coptic Christians don't even like what I'm saying and would not agree with me. And they and they like their they'll tell you, "Oh, my friends are all Muslims. you're a hatemongerer. What are you doing? And I would actually argue my parents would have been at least neutral. They weren't like we love Muslims, but they wouldn't have said, you know, oh yeah, Muslims are all monsters or evil. So [snorts] I I I can honestly say that that the only thing that my own personal background may have might have done is it drew interest in the question in the first place. My main interest is history. I studied history. That's what I majored in in history. And so it was natural of course for me to gravitate to those topics that are part of who I am. Okay. So yeah, okay, I'm a cop. I'm Christian Muslims. But and so that's why my first thesis was for example about the first military conflict between Muslims and Christians because I was involved in military history at the time. So, I don't think that uh you know my my if anything my background if you really dig into it and you know there's this theory that oh yeah, every Christian from the Islamic world hates Muslims and they're being persecuted and that's not even true. I mean I that's one of the topics I'm expert in. I have another book on the persecution of Christians and we can talk about that but um most Christians would actually because it's a cultural thing. A lot of Christians from the Middle East are culturally like Muslims. So if you put a if you put an American Christian and a Coptic Christian and an Egyptian Muslim, the Coptic Christian and the Muslims are going to be best friends >> because culturally they see things eye to eye. [snorts] So I tell you all this okay so you understand that no that's not in any way Christians are not born and bred with this oh those Muslims we can't wait till we get away from them. Okay. Now, obviously there's some who did experience persecution in the modern era and it's getting worse now. But like let's say in my parents' day, it wasn't that bad at all. You know, the Muslims were were this is let's say my parents were born in the ' 40s, you know, so they're growing up in the 60s. Muslims in Egypt at that time were nowhere near as radical as today. And even today, a lot of them are not radical. So, uh, again, I'm just telling you all this that just to tell you that that is, if anything, that should have moderated my views that I am. >> We'll be back to the show in a second, but right now, I want to talk about a lie. The wireless carrier industry is selling you. [music] Most privacy focused carriers aren't actually private. They're just rebranded versions of AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile. The same companies that are actively selling your data and getting breached every few months. Cape is different. They own and operate their own mobile core, [music] the central command center that controls your account, your data, what gets collected, and who has access to it. That means SIM swap protection that's cryptographic. Your number is tied [music] to a 24word phrase. No one, not even Cape, can transfer your number without it. Cape is the only privacy carrier in the country that owns its own mobile core. No one else provides this level of control. [music] Head to cape.co/impact and use code impact to [music] get 33% off your first six months with CAPE. And now, let's get back to the show. >> If we know that Muslims and Christians can live side by side and not end up having animosity towards each other, >> um, >> how is that consistent with your view that there's this pattern that repeats through history and so it's just sort of inevitable and if you're not careful, it's going to happen again? Because that tells me at least for one period everybody was fine living together. >> My ultimate point is the religion of Islam as it is as it is understood written down documented black and white in the Quran uh codified by the or the the clerics. Okay. Is is an intolerant and violent creed that is uh incompatible the west. That's my message. Okay. [snorts] Now what happens [laughter] inevitably and we're having it right now and I'm glad we are because it's important is all of a sudden now we conflate the religion with the people. Okay? And with every religion, Christianity, Judaism, whatever you have teachings and then you have people who are to varying degrees associated with the teaching. Okay? Uh we can look at let's just look at okay look at Judaism, right? You have the actual uh orthodox Jews and then you have I think they're called the reformed or um liberal Jews. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But they're all Jews, right? And um even the I think they're called reformed Jews, uh who are like liberal Jews, uh you know, they'll tell you, "Well, I'm I believe this, but the Orthodox believe something else." Okay. So, but as it happens, the Orthodox, I'm sure, are much closer to Judaism. And as it happens, the radical >> as written, you mean? >> As written, yeah. They're being more consist, they're being more uh loyal or adherent to the actual text and the traditions and the history. Now the same thing with Islam. So as I describe to you Islam, it is what it is. It's violent. It's intolerant. It's not out to live in coexistence. It's out to become supreme. All right. Now, the Muslims within Islam, you know, what are they almost two billion people? You're going to have some who think that's great and who love it and who want to activate it and who want to be part of that. You're going to find some who don't even know about it, who don't care, just like the many nominal Christians in the West who say, "I'm a Christian." But what do they even know about Christianity, right? So, you're going to have Muslims like that. You're going to have Muslims who even know what's what's that there's bad stuff, but they're not going to they're not going to live with it. They're going to know there's going to be Muslims who know the bad stuff and they agree to it, but they're not going to commit to it. [snorts] Not yet because it's the the situation is not opportune. >> So, I guess my point is I I have I've going back to my background and all that. I've ob I've objectively studied [snorts] Islam and I know I know the tra the languages the original languages. It's been my academic background. I've written books and what I'm telling you is not coming from I'm a bitter uh cop with an axe to grind. It's coming if anything that should have tempered me. Most of the cops I know actually don't like what I'm do. You know, you're being a troublemaker. People live in peace. Okay. So, to go back to that, well, are they living in peace or not? Well, it who's doing what? Some Christians in Egypt and in Middle Eastern countries get a persecuted. Some get killed. >> Some have Muslim neighbors who they get along with. >> What will help us is to break these down into uh some chunks. So the first thing is what I'm hearing you say like any religion, some people are way into it, some aren't. >> Right. um [clears throat] hiding in there is a belief then that even if you have the vast majority that are call them secularized they're not super by the book >> it doesn't take a large number of people that are um orthodox I don't think Muslims use that word but >> that idea very strict by the book >> uh to create a problem and the ideology that's hiding in the more um hardlined orthodox we'd say radical but I want to stay away from that kind of language that they're really tied to the word of the Quran, the hadith, the interpretations. You'll have to walk us through that. But >> so for now, I'll ask the audience to accept that you have a core belief that says it does not require a large number of people to be a problem for there to be a problem. So you you've been very clear about separating the people from the religion. So now walk us through what are you've said a bunch of them but like sort of in passing going quickly. >> Walk me through what is the doctrine of Islam that becomes problematic for a hardliner who's like but it says right here to do this thing. >> Okay there actually three. The first one I touched on is the second one I'll mention briefly because it's the most popular which is jihad. Okay. That is a doctrine. It's uh it's it's okay which is there's Quranic verses. It's the life of Muhammad. It's the example of the caliphates. It's the example of the sultanates whether they're Arabs or or Turks. >> What is it? So people will have heard the word but what is actually Yeah. >> Okay. So it's very interesting actually. Jihad is the old orientalists the original translators Europeans they would translate as holy war. And that's fair, you know, because when you come across a foreign word, you can either give it its most literal meaning or you want to give it the connotation that the Arab mind hears. And holy war is exactly what it would mean. All right. Now, what's funny and what it is, what it was historically is Muslims are obligated to engage in holy war, which is not just war. It's divine. Allah is behind you. If you die, you you reach the highest levels of paradise. So, that's why it's holy. And um who's the who's the enemy? Everyone who's not a Muslim because we have to we have to control their lands and we have to rule them. All right. >> Is it ever expressly said why like why do we have to control invade conquer? >> I'll answer it this way. Let's go to the first really problematic doctrine. Okay. So jihad is the manifestation of what I'm going to talk about now. first which I would call the first premise doctrine which I've touched on and it will answer your question and it's the one in Arabic it's called and it's based on numerous verses in the Quran and it's basically okay >> and sorry really fast I think people should know you speak Arabic as a first language >> uh yeah I was born here so I don't know I'm bilingual house you spoke with my parents >> so you are fluent >> so you're reading um direct sources you've read the Quran in Arabic. >> Yes. >> Got it. Okay. Just making sure people know that. >> Yeah. Okay. So, this doctrine B which is un unwavering. I even you know with chat GPG and AI which I think tend to be politically correct. I put them on a spot and I asked them about this doctrine and they're like yeah this is a legit doctrine. This is >> what sorry what's the doctrine exactly? >> So it's called in Arabic and it can be translated it's like a dichotomy. It could be I used to translate it as loyalty and enmity. >> And a lot of Muslims I've seen they >> loyalty enmity is what? Love or hate? I actually don't know. Well, so a lot of Muslims simplify by translating it as love and hate. Okay, >> I used to go with loyalty and enmity. You can translate those words in different ways. So wet means to befriend, to be allied to, to love, to help. But is the opposite. It's to disavow, have nothing to do with, and hate. Okay? And you are supposed to have the former, the the alliance, and befriend two Muslims only. Okay? They are your brothers. And like I said, it doesn't matter if they're different races or cultures, you're all Muslims. You're supposed to have the second, the hatred and the disavowel and the renunciation of everyone who's not a Muslim. Okay? This is an ironclad doctrine. And it's not just disavowel. I mentioned hatred. Quran 64. This is one of the most problematic verses that very few people know. 60 as in surah 60 or verse 4. It basically says, uh, you have a good example in Ibraim. Okay. Who's the who's the uh Abraham? Okay, the Genesis Abraham figure because of course Islam appropriates all the biblical figures and gives them different names or and different roles. So in Genesis, Abraham u God calls him from the land of and he leaves and that's basically what we know in the Islamic rendering before he leaves he tell his he tells his kinsmen uh hatred and enmity will exist between you and me you and us Muslims because he's a Muslim until you believe in Allah alone and then that verse says and he is a good example for you Muslims this is how you should feel towards non-Muslims and then there's all sorts of examples of some of the pious Muslims that were befriended with Muhammad, including the first khalif and the second khalif, they fought and killed their relatives. And that's good. Allah likes that because it shows their loyalty is to the ummah and the Muslims, not their and there's a verse that says, and you know, even if they're your fathers or your brothers or whoever, you can't be loyal or befriend them because they're infidels. And I have a video which I translated like 15 years ago of an Egyptian clerk talking in Arabic and he's talking about this very doctrine and he mentions how uh you know Muslims can Muslim men can marry people of the book which means Christians and Jewish women but he says but you have to hate them and you have to let them know you hate them and you can have sex with them and enjoy them but you know as long as the hatred is in your heart. Okay. So this is a teaching now. >> But is that just some wacko or >> it's in the Quran? I mean, you can say he's a wacko. It was clear, you know, some of the even Muslims were very like, "Are you sure?" And he's like, "Well, what do you want to do?" There it is. And he mentioned the verse that I told you and others. >> Um, so that's, you know, that's the problem. Now, I'm telling you all this because I told you there's three doctrines. So, the first one, this is the first one. It's >> Muslims hate non-Muslims. >> Yeah. And they're loyal to fellow Muslims. And so what Muhammad did, I always say this is his genius if you will, is that he took the the tribal mores of his society, 7th century Arabia, which is ultra tribalistic, but [snorts] he re rearticulated them through a theological paradigm. So now it's not just it's not normal tribalism, me and my family against yours. It's the it's the it's the Muslims versus the rest of the world. The rest of the world is the other, the non-tribe. And just like it was in Arabia in the 7th century, the non-tribe member is someone who you can kill and enslave and do whatever you want to. Okay? So that became the doctrine. And I was telling you earlier that you Muslims are not permitted to uh migrate voluntarily and live under Islamic non-Islamic authority. Okay? Because you're not supposed to be loyal to them. How can you give allegiance? The caveat is uh and this goes back. So we've we've dealt with the first one, the loyalty and emity and now we're talking about jihad again. And the caveat is okay, you can go to these European countries and as long as you are in one way or the other involved in jihad on behalf of Islam. Now the historic manifestation which I mentioned is of jihad is violent warfare. Okay, this is why they called it they translated it as holy war. But the this is what I find funny. A lot of the apologists today will tell you, "No, no, holy war is wrong because the word jihad really means to struggle and to strive, which is true, but that actually makes it even more problematic or or makes it even more dangerous and it underscores what's going on." That is the literal meaning of the word. You are supposed to struggle or and strive on behalf of Islam. Historically, that meant war because nobody was going to just give into you unless you force them. So now they they Muslim clerks have articulated a number of jihads struggles that are not militant or physical. They call them and they give them different names. I'm I'm going to I'm just translating them in my head. There's the jihad of the tongue, the jihad of the pen, the jihad of money, the baby jihad. And all of these Muslims who if you migrate to the West are expected to be engaged in this because that is how you're still a good Muslim. If you're just going to the west because you want a good life, well, okay, you're a traitor. You're not a real Muslim. So, but if you're doing these jihad the pen and the tongue means I'm somehow engaged in propaganda on behalf of Islam. I'm trying to demoralize Westerners. I'm trying to I'm doing what's called da. I'm preaching Islam. Okay? I'm making Islam look good. Jihad of the money, of course, is I'm a rich Saudi and I just spend millions to help further whatever Islamist jihadist causes. And the baby jihad, this is the really dangerous one in many ways in Europe is uh the Muslims are encouraged to be as fertile as possible and overwhelm the uh you know Europe. They literally have said that. I mean there's clerics on videos saying your job is go there and have as many babies as you want and [snorts] you go to Europe right now and many of the major capitals the number one newborn baby name is Muhammad. Okay. So that is so now so I'm trying to show you the continuity of what had gone on historically and >> really fast though because there's one piece that is missing in all this. So you use a word I could follow all of your logic but you use a word that at least with the items you put on the table does not yet make sense to me which is the most dangerous thing is >> and the most dangerous thing is that they're basically out breeding. they're going to have more >> the most fund the phil on a philosophical level the most dangerous thing is this is a hostile uh element or demographic that is trying to take over whichever way >> yeah demographically. >> So let me let me push deeper into this really fast and you can tell me if I'm getting this wrong. >> So uh your worldview has internal consistency if I believe the following. So, uh, for that to be dangerous, there has to be some part. And >> I know the punchline, I think, of what you're going to say because I've studied you so closely. But there's this element of, okay, this is high-risisk because they act one way when they're weak and they act another way when they're strong. And so the reason I think you have to walk us through now I if this actually is what you're saying >> uh through why you believe it is erroneous to call this a religion of peace even though in the Quran itself there are overtures to peace to non-coercive like you can't coersse people to change their religion all of that stuff and so when I hear you because I've heard so many other things I think I know where you're headed with that but if you can define Like if I were to say, "Hey Christians, um go forth and prosper. Go go go to the far ends of the earth and bring Jesus to people. Make people's lives better. And uh do it by writing. Do it by speaking. Do it by having more children. Do it by prostilitizing." It sounds awesome. It only starts sounding dark when you start using words like it's propaganda. This is a dangerous thing. It's like, well, I would expect the religions of the world to compete and to compete in non-violent ways. Like, I'm not going to have beef with that. Like, yeah, that's exactly what you should do. So, the word dangerous makes sense if you're just like, I don't want my religion to be the one that loses. >> Even though I don't really have an explanation as to why mine is better, but that would make sense. Or if you believe for some reason that they would do all these nonviolent jihads only to lead to something violent. So, walk me through. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They Okay. They can do all the nonviolent stuff and a lot of them think it's great. Well, like you say, Muslims don't see themselves as the bad guys. Okay. So, when they >> But you said your parents wouldn't see them as bad guys either. >> Yeah. Not necessarily. My parents, I think, would have had the same idea with me, which is the religion's messed up and the core teachings, but we know a lot of nice Muslims who don't do it. >> Okay. That's the understanding in general. >> That's going to be the big thing though looming in this whole argument is why why aren't we just talking about reform? Why aren't we talking about Muslims having >> We're not talking about reform because we're not Muslims. Okay. Muslims need to talk about reform. It's fair. >> It's ridiculous for you and me to talk about reform if they want to reform it. That's one thing. And a lot of that's been going on. But we're talking a lot of good stuff. But you did say something I want to unpack a little bit which is you know what like some of the verses in the Quran are good and why are you looking at the bad ones? So I should tell you there's an entire science of how Muslims approach that because for Muslims they want to Islam is legalistic religion. Okay, it's not I would argue Christianity was very legalistic in its own sense. But Islam is legalistic in that it's not about you know some spiritual you know relationship I have. I mean again Christianity didn't even have that idea until a few centuries ago. And in Islam and so it's a law. We're looking for the law and we're deriving it from the words of Allah and the example of the prophet. Now, you're right. I can open the Quran and there's good verses and a lot of >> and good means peace. >> Yeah. Peaceful, nonviolent, cooperative, um, and you know, stuff that they a lot of Muslim apologists will tell you, well, it look at that. So, what are you talking about? Now, the issue is the Muslim clerks who have a huge role. In fact, they're part of Sharia law. It's called which means consensus which is if there's any ambiguity it's it's what the Islamic clerks have agreed upon that becomes part of Sharia law. Okay. And um so they approached it and they looked and they said yeah there's a different things and then they realized um and I you might have touched on this but that the the whole revelation as it's understood of the Quran to Muhammad was done based often times on the circumstances of his life. And so you find that the earliest revelations they they divide them by two. One is in Mecca that's the older one and later ones in Medina. And there I mean they even talk about them as the Medin Quran and the Meccan Quran even though they're one Quran. And so the Meccan Quran is where you Muhammad was weak. He was outnumbered. He didn't have any followers for a while and then when he did it was like a hundred. And you know he's living amongst what would be seen as a hostile pagan peoples in the Kurish of Mecca. Okay, those are the verses where they come off. There's no war. He's not calling for jihad or anything like that. He then he does the hijra. He move the migration in the year 622 goes to Medina. There he starts becoming a political leader. Okay. And before long he starts doing the jihad and he starts going and doing caravan raids and attacking and in eight years he's conquered almost most of Arabia including Mecca itself. >> Was he like a military genius? Uh I mean these are >> conquered a lot. >> Yeah. But in the context of Arabia these would be seen as sort of smallcale. I mean there's they're almost described as you know better raids >> but he gets a good reputation I assume. >> No no he does. And uh you can say I mean yeah I mean some people would say of course he had a military he was a milit a mil a tactician to some degree right? So he wins and now but in as much as he gets stronger during this phase the medina and he keeps conquering the revelations now take a different tone. Mhm. Okay. >> So God starts revealing different stuff, >> right? Now that you're able to Okay. Now you can go on the offensive. But before when you were weak, you Yeah. you preach peace. So there's so now the clerics have have concluded there's three basically phases or or or or there's three categories which any Muslim even today can find themselves in. One, you're completely outnumbered by the infidel. >> Yep. >> In which case, yeah, you know, live and let live and you should quote those Meccan verses. two, >> sorry, in that phase. How much is tea? >> Yeah. Well, that's the other thing. Tea is another whole verse and it's actually it's tied up with the doctrine of having, you know, not being loyal to infidels. It's Quran 3:28 and it basically says, it's one of those verses, do not befriend, you know, the infidel. And that one, that verse though ends up by saying, unless it's by way of taking precautions. And that word traces back to the word tea. And again the clerics have um you know uh the exigesis of it is basically that yeah okay if [clears throat] you are under m non infidel authority you can say whatever or pretend whatever to make them not you know persecute you which means you can uh renounce Islam you can convert to Christianity if they're persecuting you let's say you can engage in baptism that's what actually happened right before um a lot and what drew on the inquisition actually in Spain because there was a large Muslim population that was engaged in that that tea. >> So they're pretending. Yeah. >> We're good Christians. >> Yeah. >> But psych just kidding at home were teaching hatred of the infidel. >> In one of my books, Sword and Scimitar, I have a long quote from a Spaniard who said, "These people converted. They went to church more than we did. They were model Christians. They were always at mass." And it looked like they were reading the Bible. And it would go on generation to generation. You'd think, "Okay, three, four generations." Yeah. Then they find out at home they're reading the Quran, preaching undying hatred for the infidel and working to subvert Spain back to Islam. >> And do you have a mental model like when you look at the UK or the US, do you have a mental model of like this is a very small percentage of people that do this but because you can't tell if they're actually moderate or if they're just faking being moderate creates a real >> So you have you have categories. You have the open avowed jihadist who I actually find refreshing because they're honest >> telling you the truth. >> Yeah. And this would be like the ISIS type who literally send out tracks and letters saying here's why we're fighting you. We're fighting you because you're an infidel and we have to hate you. Okay? Whereas other Muslims, smarter ones maybe, will play the grievance mantra. Oh, we're fighting you because you started it because of, you know, whatever colonialism because you're attacking the Arab world, whatever. Okay. And that's a lot of Islamist groups engage in that. And that's the jihad of the tongue, for example. Um, but you're right. So then then you have this gray zone who maybe seem moderate and maybe some are but you don't know which is the one who's pretending which is the one who's waiting for the circumstances to change. >> Okay. I give this analogy and and you know you were even saying I think you mentioned like in Europe and these growing Muslim numbers but you don't know. I mean it's a small number. It's a big number. >> But here's the thing. If I'm a governor or I'm a leader of let's say a European nation and my um my duties to my people first and foremost I think all of them would agree with this analogy because everyone now agrees even the most conservative measure people will tell you you know the apologists for Islam who don't think it's a big deal they'll tell you okay yeah there's a bunch of rotten apples but maybe it's like 5%. or maybe it's 1% or maybe 10. You know, they'll minimize it. But to me, that doesn't that that's we still have a massive problem. It's like saying, you know what, I'm going to give you a jar of candy. There's a hundred here. Five are poison. No biggie. Okay, let's let's eat them. Would you give that to your kid? I wouldn't. >> Okay, because and and again, I understand the 90 95 99 are not like that. >> But why is it incumbent on me to take this risk when I know it's part of that and there are people doing this? We know that and this is what I mean even even the most liberal leftist woke person will agree and say yeah I think most Muslims are good but yeah I know there's a few radicals but right there you've just I right there you've admitted to something that I personally if I was a leader who cares about my people I wouldn't engage in that why would I take >> fast just because I I can preempt what people are thinking right now so every group is going to have their crazies um I don't know that McVey a who uh did the Oklahoma City bombing. I don't know that he quoted Christianity, but boy, I wouldn't be surprised. >> They say they are they try to claim. Okay, >> so now it's like, well, do I start being super paranoid about all Christians or is it that? Well, hold on a second. If you look at the Old Testament, sure, there's some wacky [ __ ] and I'm going to be stoning all kinds of people. >> Uh but if you go, well, this is New Testament Christianity. That's what this is about. This is about following in Jesus's footsteps. and he clearly if you're modeling your behavior after him, you're going to have a lot harder time finding somebody that goes on the offensive. >> Um, and however on the Muslim side, if you start really hardlining and going with the word of the Quran, now you're running into trouble. Is that where you make the distinction or do you not? And you just go, "Hey, these have more crazies than other places or their crazies are more dangerous and that's why my warning is about Muslims and not about Christians." I also believe that ideology will tap into dormant things with inside the human. And this is why there's a book called Ordinary Men about how Hitler turned these ordinary cops into the most most ruthless killing machine where they were out shooting naked pregnant women during the Holocaust. And so it's like, yeah, that's horrifying. And that's doctrine that comes and tells you, not only is this okay, this is good and you should do this and this is good for the German people and yay. And so I know that humans will fall prey to doctrine that makes them feel good about something that from where I'm sitting is absolutely psychotic. >> So the reason I look at Christians and I'm like okay look they are going to have their crazies. Uh but if I can peel you off of the Old Testament I've at least got more to work with over here. It's far more poetic. It's far more turn the other cheek. All that kind of stuff. >> Uh I don't know the Quran well enough so I can't tell you. But looking at that side, either you're saying this group for whatever reason has a higher percentage of what Tom Billy is calling crazy people. I don't want to put that word on you, >> but either you believe that they have a higher percentage of problematic people or the doctrine somehow is more problematic and therefore we need to be worried about them and not the Christians. >> Yeah, the latter. So I agree with you that you have psychotic crazy people of all races and and creeds. Okay. But in Islam, the teachings are prone to exploits that sort of thing. Okay? So, I'll give you an example. Um, I remember I I forget who it was, uh, some Brandon maybe CIA agent, CIA director a few years ago, and he was trying to minimize the ISIS phenomenon. And he's saying, you know, this has something to do with Islam, >> ISIS Islamic State, >> and the atrocities they're engaging. And he said because if you look at all the people who are involved in it, they are all former criminals and they just are criminals. And that okay so on he's trying to say oh these are just criminals who are trying to justify their criminality or could it be that because Islam actually justifies this stuff these criminal elements find themselves gravitating towards it. Okay. So beheading people and crucifying them and engaging in raping and enslaving. Okay. There's people who think and do that regardless of religion, non, you know, westerners, non-westerners, all races. But if you have a religion that now actually promotes this and puts a pious veneer on it and tells you you're going to go to heaven, I think that has, you know, the the capacity to really radicalize and win over people as opposed to what you're saying, for example, about Jesus. Okay. Are there Christians who are nominal Christians who want to engage in violence? Yeah, of course. But they don't have the ideological support the way a Muslim or a convert to Islam would have it. And this again, this is just >> actually say behead people in >> Oh, yeah. In the Quran. Yeah. Yeah. And crucify them, chop their fingertips off. Uh Yeah. Yeah. And slit their throat. And so um so for example if you look in Europe [clears throat] rape in a lot of these countries it's it's something like 80% by Muslim migrants. Okay even though they're often under 10% of the population. >> So what do you you know what do you make of that? There's uh there has to be a correlation. They usually try not they don't want these numbers to come out. They don't want people to understand what's going on. But it's like, yeah, there's a correlate if I Okay, a man who's um again nominal Christian. Yeah. Do some of them rape? Yeah, obviously. But you're this person is not going to be able to go quote the Bible. Okay. And the Old Testament thing is not really the same. We can talk about that. It's not the Old Testament is descriptive. It's not prescriptive. The Quran is prescriptive. >> Uh give me the difference. >> The difference is Okay. So, a lot of people tell you, you know, why are you picking on the Quran, the violence? Uh, didn't you read the Old Testament? Joshua, genocide, God. Okay. >> Wild. >> Yeah. The difference is this. Think of it whatever you want. Okay. But it's it's no everyone who read it and understand it. It's written in a very [clears throat] temporal language. It's and it's finite. It talks about it gives you the names of the enemies, the Hebusites, the Pebbusites, the Canaanites, okay? None of who exist. And it uses a language which is basically you understand uh you the Hebrews in the now are fighting this group of people. Now again you can make of it whatever you want but it's not prescriptive in the sense that in the Quran it's the same thing. You know there were actual historic enemies that the Arabs were fighting in the 7th century. The Byzantines, the Eastern Roman Empire, the Cisanians, uh the Kuresh, the you know pagans, but they're not given their name. They're actually called the non-Muslims, the kafir, okay, which is the infidel translated. >> We'll get back to the show in a second, but first, let's talk about one thing your business cannot afford to get wrong. It's not your product. It's not even your marketing. It's not payroll. It's your decisions. Every wrong call starts the same way. Someone did not have the numbers. They looked at incomplete data from different systems and went with their gut and it cost them. Netswuite by Oracle fixes all of this. It's the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM all into one source of truth. That connected data makes your AI smarter so it doesn't guess, it knows. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get Netswuite's free business guide, Demystifying AI, at netswuite.com/theory. The guide is free to you at netswuite.com/theory. And now, let's get back to the show. What you're describing sounds to me less like that it the Old Testament isn't prescriptive. It's more that the Old Testament is specific >> and the Quran is generalized. >> It's open-ended. even the lang the verbs. So when you read the verb of killing the infidel, >> it's in the present, you know, fight and kill the infidel. So if I'm a Muslim, I read it, okay, it's uh, you know, it's speaking to me in the now, whereas I read an Old Testament uh passage about Joshua waring, >> okay, it is what it is. It doesn't necessarily I don't read it as this is instruction for me. >> Okay. Um, how do you feel about the following statement? If let's to me as I hear this I have not read the Old Testament nor have I read the Quran. So uh people that know more than me can uh think something totally different but Old Testament at the headline level I've heard enough that I'm like this is wild [ __ ] and I'm just going to set it all aside because it's so crazy it makes me dislike their version of God that is not interesting to me at all. >> The behavior that seems condoned even if it's not told you need to go do this >> is crazy. And I've certainly heard stuff like you can stone people to death for homosexuality and things like that which >> yeah I couldn't sign against harder if I tried. So it's like okay all of that is atrocious. And so I look at that stuff and I'm handwavy away to like you obviously need to get away from that. >> And so I feel like it would be just to do the same thing to the Quran. So is it that accidentally the way that the Old Testament is structured linguistically, it just doesn't have the mind virus effect into the present that the Quran accidentally ends up having. So it's not that uh we should ascribe to uh Muhammad any extra like sort of bad vibes or you know whatever you want to say than you would to the writers of the Old Testament. It's just that his linguistic choices end up having this knock-on effect throughout history that were not present in the Old Testament. Or does that feel naive? >> No, no, that's that sounds like a a secular rationalization. Okay. But a believer of a a Christian or a Muslim, the Christian and and I assume, you know, possibly the Jew could say, "No, this it was intentionally written that way. Um, so we don't go and kill people today." [snorts] Whereas the Muslim will tell you, "No, it's intentionally written that way because jihad is still alive in the now." That's the knock on effect I'm talking about. It gives people as they interpret it >> uh the lens through which to say that interpretation. But ultimately it it does come down to >> uh the things happening in the books are pretty horrifying. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I I mean there's there's people who have said if you really compare the violence and the atrocities and the sort of bad vibes in the Old Testament that they're worse than the Quran. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> But again, it really goes it goes to I'm not looking at I'm not looking Yeah. The words are the words, but how do they guide the people today? And you we're not seeing Jews and Christians doing that sort of thing. Okay, we are seeing Muslims doing that sort of thing. I've given some reasons why I think that's the case because it's seen, it's described, the language is very, including [snorts] the tense [clears throat] is prescriptive. It's generic. It's open-ended. When it says fight, okay, so like I told you, the Old Testament says fight these groups of people who don't exist. The Quran says fight the non-Muslim until he is subjugated. Well, if I'm a Muslim and I read that, there's non-Muslims all around me and they're not subjugated. So, that's why I think it takes more of an immediate uh tone. >> Okay. Okay. So, we're kneedeep in the doctrine here. >> And otherwise, you know, just to continue this like so otherwise, how would one explain it? Why is it that this is happening amongst Muslims? It's obvious and it's not happening if all religions have their wackos. Why is it so overwhelmingly? You look at any of these European countries and you look at, you know, the number of terrorist attacks and they're overwhelmingly Muslims even though Muslims are minority. >> So what if if it's not what I'm saying, what else could it be? >> I think I have a different read on all of this than you. I'll lay it out here so people don't think I'm dodging the question, but this is probably not yet the point in the interview where we go down this path, but it my thing goes like this. >> Culture clashes are real. I worry about that a lot. they decoher society and then you get all kinds of madness. >> Um, I'm a big believer that cultures are going to compete. I want my culture to win because I grew up in it and it treated me very well and I love it. I love the way it made me feel. I love the way it makes me feel towards other people. Makes me feel open and inclusive. I love all of that. But it also makes me want to play to win. And so there's this really cool thing if I want an open playing field and yet I want to get so good that I can beat everybody else. >> Um, so that's why I love my culture and why I want to see it win. But I also only want an even playing field. And so that's where this gets strange where it's like, okay, how protective do we be? Now, I'm a person who believes you have to have very strict immigration policies. And so I have a feeling we'll agree on that, but it might be for different reasons. So that's the part that I will hopefully we'll have time at the end to get to. Um, so what I'm trying to tease out is is um our Muslims right now culturally because I've heard you you've been very clear on doctrine and your hypothesis is it creates this way outsized and very unique impact on the world. To me it's very in line with what Sam Harris says. I think there's a lot there. It it makes sense as an argument. Um, and what I'm trying to figure out is is it that or is it just that they're having more kids, they're more confident in themselves, and so they're not afraid to be like, "Yeah, [ __ ] you. My religion is better." And so, yes, I'm going to come to your country. You're wealthy. Uh, you guys have cooler [ __ ] I'm going to come here. I'm going to raise my kids here, but we're going to uh terraform this place culturally. We're going to take it over. We're going to take the advantages that you guys have, keep that rolling. but at the same time, you guys are living a super lame um like value system life and we're gonna take that over. And it's like, yeah, I both understand why a culture would think that's a good idea if they have like the confidence of their culture. >> And I understand why the country that that's being done to would be like, [ __ ] right off. And so when I see Japan being like, nope, you guys got to go. >> I find it funny. Now, I also have I tried to do business in Japan. It did. It went nowhere. Like, it was um >> So, they're not open. In other words, >> they're not open in the slightest. And it's created this incredibly unique culture that I have I have gained so much um enjoyment from, insights from, whatever that I completely respect >> and enjoy being able to interact with their culture. I don't think it's better than ours, but I really find it engaging. So the fact that they would tell me like, "Hey, we want to do business with Japanese people. You can >> go away." Bugger off. >> Like I'm like, "Hey, I get it. No worries." Like you do you. It's part of what makes you interesting. So now I get it. It becomes very existential from a cultural perspective. So I'm watching what's happening in Europe and I am a gasast that they don't believe in themselves and they look at what they've accomplished. They have the largest empire in the world and all they can see is but we were bad people. light and I'm just like what the [ __ ] So anyway, that to me feels like a very inappropriate read of what you've done historically. I'm all for people going well there were parts of this that were horrific and so we'd never rerun that experiment, but at the same time to be able to see what it looks like when we're muscular and strong and we believe in ourselves and like all of that. We're going to check ourselves so that we don't, you know, sort of redo and I mean I think in many ways the American system post World War II was us trying to do colonialism, right? we'd go in and help, but we wouldn't take over. We had a military base, but we're not trying to tell you what to do. >> So, it's like we want to control the economy, but like you can still be Japanese. You know what I mean? So, that we got closer. >> Trust me, you can go down very dark paths of things the US has done, and you hopefully get better and better and better over time. But, nonetheless, I do not share the sort of self-suicidal, self- flagagillating look at America or the UK or wherever. But I also don't immediately extend to um Islam that right now is like having their moment like they're it's working man having babies believing in your book like recruiting the [ __ ] out of other people telling them like yo these guys are weak like look at these idiots the way they run their country like forget all that like we're going to be tough we're going to be strong we're not going to be pushed around >> hey now to your point at the beginning there comes a time where wait hold on if you're going to tell me how to live now I have a real [ __ ] problem. And so part of the reason I wanted to interview you is I am looking at this going, hm, is there a uniquely escalatory problem where this religion, the dieards, you've been very clear and it makes a lot of sense to me that it's probably a small number, but that the dieards are going to make problems for me. And especially because I believe that American culture right now does not believe in itself as very weak. But I want to see it reassert itself. I want to see America be strong again from a cultural perspective. I'm not Christian even a little bit. However, I believe I have grown up in the cultural soup of believing that the individual is sovereign, that there is a little bit of divinity in all of us and therefore there should be individual freedoms and all of that. I look at Islam does not seem compatible with that. Maybe people will make me a believer. I doubt it, but it's certainly possible. So that's sort of how I come at all of this. And as I was saying before we started rolling, what I want to understand are all the base assumptions that you have that lead you to your conclusions because then I can go either agree with the base assumptions or I don't. And then I can build my own thinking rather than just being a parrot who's like, >> "Oh, I've never thought through this, so I'm just going to parrot back what you say or what somebody else says." No, no, no. I understand the base assumptions. And so now I'm like, "Well, is that true or not?" Okay. So we were in doctrine. >> Have you laid out all of the doctrines you believe that make Islam uniquely problematic or are there? >> Yeah, there were three. So the first one I mentioned, loyalty, enmity, tribalism essentially, but deified, which creates the hostility that manifests itself as jihad. So that's the physical manifestation that we're familiar with, which can be expressed as terrorism, warfare, conquest. And the third one is basically the idea that once a conquest happens, which kind of goes to where you're going. Um, you know, so let I think you're asking me like, okay, Muslims are just competing like everyone else and they're having their moments, but is it going to get dark in the end? So what happened to conquered, you know, um, subject populations historically is not what, for example, happened under the Mongols. Okay. So the Mongols actually when they would and they were really brutal and brutal. Yeah, exactly. There's no one no one has reached that level. Okay. But they actually gave freedom of religion and we weren't supremacist against you because you believe this or that and the other thing. >> Islam doesn't have that. Okay. So in Islam once you're conquered the you know you pay tribute and you have to be a secondass citizen. Now this actually continues throughout the Islamic world. If you talk about Egypt my ancestral homeland that's what you will see more not necessarily physical persecution that happens. Okay. But what's ingrained in the culture is a sort of discriminatory attitude towards the non-Muslim. Let's say the Christian. You are a secondass citizen. Okay. >> So why weren't your parents more angry with Muslims? >> I'll tell you why. Because they're born into that and that's normal. And uh you know there's a word for dimitude which means you know a dimm like that kind of person. They're called dimm and dimitude is this ment you know mentality. You're born into it and you just accept it. Yeah. I mean they're the overlords. They're the majority. So I I need to know my place. So, uh, and not necessarily my parents that that were like that, but that's kind of what influences a lot of people like that. They're just that they're born into it. That's how I have to be. It's a fair price. You know, they're the majority. The idea of, oh, everyone has their free, you know, freedom of like the American or Western idea. That's so alien. And I would say it's not organic. I mean, we have to learn that. >> It's like a cast system. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's more organic. It's organic to be I'm a minority. Let me just be grateful they're not killing me. You know, they're giving me some measure of tolerance. That's good. That's I think what how most people would understand it. What we have is actually, you know, it's it's it's manufactured. It's good, but it's not it's not naturally an organic thing that just everyone realizes, oh yeah, everyone's equal. That's what I mean. It goes back to the tribalism. >> And is it in the Quran that you have to be a secondass citizen? >> Yeah. Quran 9:29, it says, fight the people of the book, which is understood as Jews and Christians who actually, so this is actually good. I mean the other people who are not Jews and Christians, you're supposed to just kill them unless they convert. The Jews and the Christians according to this verse 929, you fight them until you until they keep fighting and you kill them or they submit and they pay tribute and it says and they live feeling subjugated and humbled. And then there's a whole entire Jewish prudence about how to make them feel that way. So historically there were times when the Jew or Christian comes and pays um the tax gatherer has to pull their beard and slap them. They have to crawl on all fours. Uh >> that's in the Quran. >> No no no that's that was a practice based on the verse practice >> based on the verse that they have to feel humbled which is in the Quran. >> The jurists would would um enforce these types of humiliation rituals >> because of that. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, um, anyway, so those are the doctrines, but to your point, okay, you were, I think, uh, and you know, correct me if I if I'm not if I'm paraphrasing you wrong, but you were saying kind of it's it's okay if Muslims want to come in and it's, you know, they're competing with ideas and they're proud of their way and, you know, they're just bringing their thing, right? Which was okay. I think you're saying, >> but the problem is what? >> If you're going to force your religion on other people, now I have beef. >> Okay. All right. So it's not an eitheror with Islam. Okay? It's not either they are just uh you know this is their moment or they are you know just uh they have a dark agenda. Okay. The two can work together actually and they often do and I'll give you a perfect historical precedent which may illuminate what we're discussing because you were talking about you don't like the self flagagillation of the west and whatnot. So historically if you go back to the colonial era and um again the problem with the colonial era is most people don't know what happened before it okay which was the longdrawn jihad and conquest of Christian territories and the colonial era was finally when Europe was now stronger and and went on the offense and it entered the Muslim lands which were formerly Christian. Okay. Now um what they did is okay you can say they conquered the Arabs and the Muslim and the per you know Asians and Africans and whatnot in during the colonial era but the difference is they actually brought a lot of good stuff honestly okay they actually brought science technology medicine progress which was not there literacy okay printing presses that's what the Europeans brought during the colonial era >> pause right there for a second I think this is going to be very important so obviously there are people right now in the comments freaking out that you would say that anything positive came out of colonialism. >> So now let's set the stage. Why didn't they have those things before? Why did >> the Arabs Muslims >> uh whoever whatever nation they're going into that should be and I'm sure some of them do actually say well we did >> get a couple bits and bobs out of this. >> Um but why didn't they have those things? Was there something about the West, the culture, the religion, whatever? Like does Christianity bring you science? Because Christians killed a lot of scientists. So like what what was it about the West that was good? What's the relationship between um Islam and the dark ages? Like I know there's a tie there. So walk me through why there's even that dichotomy in the first place where you could get the West coming in and colonialism despite the brutality is somehow also a little bit positive. [snorts] >> All right. And to try to answer that, let me tell you what what what let's say Islam did. So we have we can kind of balance what we're talking about. So I told you before that is the conquest and Muslims enter Christian even territories and they conquer them until today. Okay, if you look at Spain and the Balkans and and they and they have their deep history, the Spaniards and the Balkans and they still have areas that have been so devastated just from warfare, okay, from with the Muslims and what was brought at the time. I mean literally if you look at the sources, it was in mass enslavement, okay? And we're talking about from the very beginning when let's say the 8th century when Muslims entered Spain until uh you know the Ottomans are finally become the you know the the the old man of Europe which is like in the 19th century. Okay you can look at that there's mill there's all this enslavement but there's not none of the countries in the European countries and they all you can go talk to Hungarians go talk to Romanians they tell you our land has been devastated and there was nothing brought here. Okay. and and not necessarily even because uh you know I mean yeah it was because the Muslims are not going to give the good stuff to their subject slave people all right but they didn't also have the technology at the time so now you're asking me why did the west end up having the great technology that's you know that's open to debate why they progressed but they had it and they brought it so it was actually called it was understood and and uh by Europeans as you're maybe you're familiar the white man's burden >> I've certainly heard the phrase Roger. Okay. Rogerard Kipling. He was uh well he was a writer and some clerk I think in India. This is during the colonial era. And you know the white man and I talk about triggering. But the white man saw his his his mission is to go and civilize the savages of Asia, the Muslim countries, Africa. Okay. So they went, they conquered, they colonized, but they saw it like look we're bringing them to this that and the other thing. Now here's the important point. Okay. That's the a lot of people say, "Well, that's the European narrative." Guess what? If I and I've read books and I've because I've researched this, if you look at, let's say, the 1800s, which is the high high moment of um colonialism, depending on the country, also in the early 1900s, if you look at the writings of the people living there in Egypt, which I have, they talk about this as the best time ever. Okay. >> Colonialism. >> Yes. Colonialism. Algeria just passed a law because Algeria >> this is written by people that were act I'm writing this sentence under colonialism. >> Yeah. This is the era they're living in and the way they talk and the way they describe things. This is the best time ever. >> Are they not worried that their writing is being monitored? >> No. Because everyone agreed with them. Okay. Outaturk. So the Ottoman Empire was the scourge of Europe for centuries. This is a historic fact. It was the jihadist standard bearer more than the Arabs historically. Once they start losing and Europe is now becoming stronger. >> So they're losing to Europe. >> Yeah. Losing to Europe, losing land, you know, just using losing the momentum and now Europe is stronger and moving in. Once that starts happening, you know what they do? They completely emulate the Europeans. >> They get Turkish used to be Ottoman Turkish was written with the Arabic script. They said, "Oh, that's backwards. We want to adopt the European alphabet. We shave they all shave their beards. They put on suits and ties. Women were dressed in western dress. No more hijab. Okay, that's not because Europeans forced them. This was because you were talking about confidence. It was because the European colonialists were very confident about their culture. The subject people saw the boons they were coming with and they were the winning dog. And guess what? We want to be like that. We want to copy that. If you look at pictures from these Middle Eastern nations, you will be amazed if you look at an 1920s picture compared to 2020. 1920s you'll think you're looking at Europe. in 2020 you're looking at you know 7th century Arabia is how it looks a lot of that was because there was a sort of symbiotic relationship between and which is still going on today and you have alluded to it but it's much worse today it's the opposite back then it was a confident Europe who is coming in and Muslims are now you Islam fell to the wayside and there's a theory that the re and I kind of touched on it the reason that Islam ever even mattered was because it was seen as the winning Of course, people sided with Muhammad once he started getting stronger and the more the conquest spread, the more people became Muslims and oh, you become richer and you have a piece of the plunder and etc, etc. Okay, so when Muslims started seeing, oh, you know what, Islam gets me nothing. I'm living in the desert. Whereas these people are progressing and they're bringing all this magic with them, science and technology and medicine. Oh, let's act like them. Okay, that's literally what happened. And I was just telling you there's an algeria just passed the law because actually if you're an Algerian and it's mostly this is geared towards older Algerians who live during the colonial era of under France if you speak well of it you can go to jail. Okay if you speak well of the French colonial era and I was telling you because a lot of people look back nostalgically >> older generations that was the good time. Okay. Now, what's happening today, which you've touched on, is the exact opposite. In as much as the West has started to lose faith in itself, lose its confidence and become, you know, like a doormat and tell everyone, "Oh, your culture is way better than ours." That Muslims are not impressed by that. That doesn't uh inspire them. That doesn't make them like you. That actually gives them nothing but contempt. And and they say, "Yeah, okay. Yeah, you're right. My culture is better than yours." And so and this all really coalesed with one man his name is seykut he was an Egyptian he was with the Muslim Brotherhood and um you know by all by all measures he was moderate if you want to use that term and then he came to the United States in the 50s and he spent time and he was just a ghast of what he saw what he considered immoral behavior especially that men and women were freely consorting. Long story short, he went back and he became a very popular writer and chief theoretician for the Brotherhood. And his conclusion was, "Okay, yeah, these people are good with science, technology, whatever. Let's appropriate and learn that, but we want nothing to do with our culture because it's just pathetic and it's just they're they're pathetic. This is they're just crazy. So, what well what culture is a Muslims going to fall back on then?" Well, Islam. So, there's definitely been that kind of response, but it's it's incomplete. It's the, you know, you're telling me about your viewers and this really reminds me of uh I I had a I did an interview with um me and Peter Beosian. >> Fantastic. >> Yeah. And a cameraman I think if you've seen it, >> I have >> was unhinged >> and everything he said I mean I'm just sorry but it's like you're wrong. You don't know your history. It just seems like people today the history they've been indoctrinated in in is white man bad, everyone good. white man evil everyone passive victim and I'm not here to exonerate white man I don't think of myself as a white man by the way okay so but whatever the white man did you know what the others guys did it too and in often in a much more graphic way and it's kind of like so where's the balance and his you know I even told him everything was like oh well colonialism did this well I'm like what about the thousand years of jihad and conquest and colonization that doesn't matter you're talking about the one century where actually Muslims liked it because they got so many benefits. That's the nightmare. So my point is there's a lot of people who have been really misled with history. You know, a lot of people we know of the concept of fake news, which I think is very dangerous because uh >> but as I always say, fake news is ephemeral. It creates its mischief and then dissipates. I find fake history much more problematic and very dangerous because it creates overarching narratives and paradigms and people see reality through it. And if it's fake, your everything's going to be just completely distorted in your mind. >> What are the beats of fake history that are relevant to this conversation? >> I'll give you I'll give you a very popular one, which is uh if I speak about slavery, that means white people enslaving blacks. >> Is that real? Yeah, that happened. Of course. Is it bad? Yes. But if you if you just think it's that's it, [snorts] that's all that ever happened. Well, then white people are evil. And people say that I saw this uh she's a professor Bridget Cooper at Rudgers University, black woman. She literally says that you know like and the way she talks is as if nobody's enslaved anyone except white people. Okay, so that is a fake history. If you now understand that, yeah, whites did that. But blacks enslaved whites, blacks enslaved blacks, whites enslaved whites. Okay, and it's been a non-stop thing that has happened historic. Muslims enslaved everyone. Okay. And if anything, well, guess what? Who did abolish slavery? It was whites. At least they did that, okay? Around the world. So if you, so my point, you see, but if you if you jettison all that out and oh, it's only the white man who did slavery. That's going to poison your mind. And then you will believe in the woke theories. Uh kind of like, oh yeah, because you know, everyone's pro, every black person's problem in America is because of people are still racist. you know, you're going to believe that because if you believe that fake history, but if you understand in context, which is everyone did it, but at least we can say one group abolished it. So, it kind of changes how you may see the actual reality that's unfolding before us. >> And what is what is some of the framing that people would have about Muslims or Islam itself that are misleading that are giving them a different picture of what's happening right now versus what you believe is actually happening. Right. >> Right. Like so so for example the fake histories about Islam um those are so deep one I'll give you one I always quote this because it's very and it's been etched in my head um there's a a former professor um he wasn't mine but I used to see him at Georgetown University I used to attend there in the Middle Eastern programs and his name is John Espazito and in the early 2000s he was like the dawn I mean he was the editor of the Oxford history of Islam and the FBI and CIA and all the intelligence agencies would talk to him about terrorism and he has a line in one of his books. [clears throat] The book is called Islam, the straight path. And the line goes as follow. Five centuries of peaceful coexistence elapsed between Christians and Muslims until an imperial papal power play led to a series of holy wars which have left centuries of enduring mistrust. Which means from the dawn of Islam until the first crusade in 1095, peaceful coexistence until the first crusade and um now Muslims are upset. Okay, as I've alluded, those four or five centuries actually is when Muslims savagely conquered threequarters of the Christian world. >> All right. [snorts] In one year alone in 109, okay, this is the same the same century of the first crusade later, one khif, according to Muslim sources, destroyed 30,000 churches. Yo. Yeah. Okay. So imagine this kind of fake history where you're telling people, "Oh, Muslims were great from the beginning and they were so nice to Christians until those evil crusaders decided to do that." That's a a primary, a premier example of fake history. And if I believe that, well, of course, I'm going to believe Muslims are still being abused by those stupid white Christian colonialist people, etc., etc. But if I understand the truth, actually it was Muslims who were the it's it's it's it's known the first crusade is a belated rebuttal to centuries of Islamic conquest. And in fact, in the cent in the decades before the first crusade, the atrocities had reached the new high, okay, of attacks on Christians and pilgrims and destroying churches. >> So you're saying that the crusades, at least the first one, was a direct response to aggression Yeah. on behalf of Muslims. That's what the That's what the sources make very clear. >> And what this was just part of the we have to wage jihad and so we're going to >> Yeah. Yeah. It was it was always bad of course under Christians had always been going to the holy land even after the Islamic conquest >> and depending on who was the leader you know at least they would expect tri extra money and taxes but if they were radicals or whatever there'd always be uprisings and even when pilgrims would get there they'd get killed raped a lot. >> Yeah. Were they going just to see the Holy Land and pay tribute? Like find the rock that Jesus came out from behind? >> Pilgrimage was a huge thing in Europe, >> but they weren't trying to take it over. >> No, no, no. Just pilgrimage to go worship at, you know, the holy sites. >> Okay. And so they basically now every time they go, there's some sort of ultraviolent agro. And >> the Turks, the Seljic Turks specifically had risen right around this time. And they were engaged in all sorts of just I mean horrific. I describe it in one of my chapters in sort of scimitar where they I mean in one city they burned a thousand. It was known as the church of it was a city of a thousand1 churches. They burn them all to the ground. It was an Armenian city. They would pull out the endrails of people. I mean rape women on the altars including nuns. All right. So that sort of thing. Um that's but h how many people know this if you hear the first crusade? No, the first crusade was a colonial racist venture. No, it was actually trying to red address all these wrongs and put an end to them. Okay, so this is what I mean. This it's this context is important. And if you don't have that, you have fake history which will feed into all of these ideas which is, oh, white man bad, Muslim innocent. But if you have at least some balance, you have the truth. Okay. Well, at least I mean it could still be whatever it is today, but at least you have um a solid an accurate foundation to understand it through. >> Okay. So, um, through all that history, and you've mentioned Spain a little bit, but it's probably worth walking us through that timeline. I think you said it went on for like 7 or 800 years. >> Um, walk us through that timeline. I want people to understand the pattern that you see emerging as you look at this because I think it will speak directly to what you see now and how people should interpret that. So as we take Muslim behavior over you know hundreds of years a thousand years uh I think you document up to 1,400 years in certainly in sword and scimitar >> um >> what pattern emerges >> the Spanish example is a good one because it's really a microcosm of everything we're talking about you can see that Spain was almost like um you know Europe but it was a perfect little it's a peninsula it's not little Islam invades in the year 71 11s that you're given and essentially conquers it except for a very small group of rebels who get holed up in these mountains in the northwestern quadrant of the peninsula and the Muslim sources say like yeah whatever they're like 10 people living on living in Iraq who cares slowly these and and the the rest of the Christians and there were Jews there as well had become subjugated by the Muslims at this point. Okay. So now they're they're paying the tribute dim. Exactly. Slowly and slowly, decade after decade, century after century, the Christians in the north starts coming down. And this is the reconista, >> the the main traditional uh you know, >> and this literally takes hundreds of years. >> Well, okay. So, the conquest is uh 7-Eleven and it doesn't end until 1492. >> Whoa. [laughter] >> Okay. So uh uh this is this is how it starts and you can look at the map and you know the Christians slowly slowly keep coming and then there's vicissitudes Muslims win more land and Christians win more land and it keeps going on and on it's by and large it's almost over by the mid like 1250s but you have Granada in the very southern tip and that's still a Muslim kingdom until 1492. Um, and you know, okay, so when you look at that, it's funny to me because again, here we here we go with the fake histories, a lot of historians have tried to say, oh, actually, this was a great time of uh of cooperation. And, you know, you had Muslims, Jews, and Christians living in peace and in harmony. And here's the thing, okay, we just said this is centuries. If you look at it, they're basically talking about maybe a decade in those centuries where all it was is grand architecture and and yes and but in that context more progressive scientifically than the rest of dark age Europe. Okay. But it even in that you find inconvenient hiccups. So there's for example something called the martyrs of Cordoba and this is around I want to say 850. This would fall within the timeline of the golden age that supposedly, you know, the Christians and Jews and Muslims have. But the martyrs of Cordoba were basically Christians who had been dimm. And they had reached the point where they just got tired of even though they're paying their tribute and they can be Christians of being pressured because that was always an ongoing thing. It's an ongoing thing today, you know, where you're, you know, you're mocked for being a Christian for example. Um, and just and they got tired of it that they started just speaking up real loud and blaspheming essentially by saying your prophet is an is is a false prophet Muhammad. There's only one God, Jesus Christ, etc. And they were all something they're known as the martyrs of Toba. There's something like 50. They were all beheaded, boiled in oil, crucified, skinned alive, including women. Okay, so that's the golden age. >> All right, just to give you an idea. Um, outside of that was just pure carnage. Non-stop Christians, Muslims fighting back in the Christian mentality where it's reconista. It's we were reconquering our land because Muslims did conquer. It was a Christian territory when the Muslims invaded. Um, and that goes on and on and on. And then you have the the pivotal moment which I think I touched on is uh about Teaya. So this is actually a perfect example of the Teaya. Now you have Spain. The the Christians have conquered all of Spain or the Iber Iberian Peninsula. This of course includes Portugal. A lot of Portuguese people get upset when I just keep saying Spain. So uh you know Spain and Portugal and um now you have Islam is confined to Granada. It's something like half a million people. Initially the Spaniards, okay, they they after they conquered them in 1492, they said you can stay Muslim, you can practice Sharia, do your thing. This is the part people don't hear. And what happened is all of a sudden a lot of those Muslims were trying to subvert Spain back. They were helping the Barbrey Muslim pirates raid. They were trying to ally with the Ottoman Turks, fellow Muslims again. [snorts] And before long, the Christians just finally understood, okay, your religion is inherently not is incompatible. So they said, sorry, you have two choices now. You either become a Christian or you leave. Go back to North Africa whence they had come in the 8th century. And now now here's the the common day rendering is this. First of all, no one's going to tell you that they were given freedom originally and that they were trying to subvert Spain back to Islam. >> And they're going to tell you just randomly Christians because they're crazy evil bigoted Catholics decided to they can't live in peace and they said Muslims you have to become Christians. Okay? No. It was done because in the context of the times it was understood that first of all there's no atheism in this period. You're you're going to be one religion or another. And if you're a Muslim and we already know they at this point they've translated they understand the Quran they're saying what I'm saying about these doctrines and so okay either you become like us in which case we assume you're going to stop hating and trying to kill us okay at least the you're the further you know your second generations and third or you leave so all of a sudden they all converted half a million okay and then later on we find out that they found they got fatwas okay fatwa is an Islamic decree from a jurist high ranked scholar and several of them and they said now you can do tea and tea is okay you can convert you can become Christians you can have the Eucharist you can go to mass you can do the whole nine yards but as long as in your heart you're still a Muslim and you're still trying to help Islam okay it's fine and they all converted okay and now why I find it amusing because if you look at the records as I have and I talk about a little bit in in Sword and Scimitar the Christians just couldn't believe it and there's one who's who's like these people it was for generations they acted like model Christians better than us the native Spaniards and Portuguese and then we found they would go to church and all that and then we'd find they were at home as I as I told you preaching jihad and teaching their children how they have to hate and etc and that's what gave rise to the Inquisition at least in Spain because you had all this huge mass and a lot of the Muslims were saying no no I'm a good Christian and some were and some were being busted for you know being Tea. That's what led to the Inquisition. I'm not necessarily justifying it. I'm just giving you an idea because the the Pontython kind of uh version, which unfortunately too many people believe, is oh no, they're just crazy evil uh Christians and Catholics, and they just don't believe in tolerance and religious freedom, and they decided we're going to torture everyone until they become Christian. No, as you can see, there's a deeper context. There's a deeper story to it. And then in the end, the Spaniard just said, "You know what? There we can't figure it out. this is too hard. Everyone has to go. And so they were all expelled. And now the irony is you find out today Spain just brought like a million migrants from Africa who just walked in and they just gave them free citizenship. Okay? And so so you know it's interesting because and a lot of those migrants you find that they engage in the same sorts of behavior. They have that at least that tribalistic they don't have to be sophisticated in theologically understood or learned in Islam. But that old tribalism is just there. It's human. Okay. And they go there and they pray on whatever and they destroy and they exploit the Somali, you know, here in Minnesota, that mentality. Okay. So, you know, someone So, the continuum continues with Islam. But the West has had a massive break and it just doesn't learn from its history and it's just repeating it and going out of its way. Which is why all these countries, which is why the West today, Europe is so much more powerful than Islam military, technologically, economically. I mean, it could it could destroy it. If if the West was uh governed by Genghaskhan, he could destroy Islam, right? >> Yeah. Physically, >> I would say given given what he was known for. >> And yet at no time and and and um and uh Europe for the longest time before the colonial era was the weak horse. Islam was this behemoth surrounding it. Okay, that's how it was understood. So it's ironic that those Europeans fought tooth and nail to preserve their way of life and today you have this sort of decadent west which is all powerful and it's just it's it's doing everything to kill itself and bring in people who don't share its values, don't share its worldview, are not assimilating openly so and um so so I guess that's the long version to answer your you know what's the warning. Okay, so we have this pattern that we see repeating through history. Uh we just had Spain let in. They originally claimed was 500,000.3 million or something like that. >> Wild wild number. >> Um okay. >> And the guy says so we can he I don't I forget the you know the phraseology but he was basically saying so you guys can become citizens and outvote the right. >> Yeah. like something to the effect that I want you guys to get the voting so you can vote for us and we can keep doing this and shut down the right. >> Yeah. Yeah. You'll uh you'll get to one of my can of worms. So, we'll set that aside for a second. Um what's going to be the consequence of this? How does this play out across Europe? I'm watching what's happening in the UK, which because my wife is British, I'm very very close to that problem. >> Uh obviously what Spain is doing is pretty wild. You look at Brussels and it's crazy. Uh and a lot of people will say it's not really that big of a number. I'm not sure what people are talking about. Um but as you sort of run the scenario to um bring up Peter Beosian again, >> he he is saying that um he believes that Europe is already dead. that from a demographic position it the certainty of their demise just from a what part of the population they make up in their own country is so already done that he with a straight face >> believes that they should negotiate basically a surrender I and I don't think I'm misrepresenting his position >> no you're not he's said that to me numerous times >> yes so um because he's saying like we'll get abused down the road as they take over the country so we might as well negotiate it now so we can basically limit the abuse that we'll face in the future. It's pretty wild. Like that's >> I always hope he's like playing devil's advocate. >> He does not seem to be though. It would be very interesting to get him on the show to have a similar walkthrough of his belief system that leads him to this conclusion. The thing that made the cameraman walk off was he said in reference I believe to UK, but certainly Western Europe, Western Europe, he said over and over and over, >> uh in Western Europe, >> if they can't find another solution, they have to start shooting people that come over the border illegally. He's very clear about that. This is about illegal immigration >> in Western Europe. I I believe I've accurately represented his statements. >> Uh >> but that's pretty wild. So he obviously has a set of beliefs about what the second and third order consequences of this are going to be as they play out over time. >> Uh you chuckled here when I mentioned his belief. You seemed almost incredulous in a very kind way, but >> you seemed very shocked [snorts] by what he was saying. So what's your take? Like what what happens to >> Spain? What happens to the UK as this plays out? >> I think one of the fundamental problems is uh Western people specifically are myopic and they just see the now and that's why they look at the now and it's like ah what's a big deal 5% 10% Muslims h we'll we'll figure it out later. And the thing is it's like a slippery slope because it keeps growing and growing and and and the more it grows for some reason it seems like uh you know their freedoms then the Brits for example starts eroding because they can't see and speak about what's happening. And so my point is I don't think it's too late and a lot of people think I do. Uh I don't but I think it's a lot harder than you think. Um it's not this isn't where oh I'm going to vote for this guy and now we're going to get it done. I think that's the problem. A lot of people pin pin all their hopes on one politician thinking, you know, this this guy's going to do a miracle. And the problem is the whole culture needs to change. It's a paradigm shift. >> Okay? If you want to actually make a change, it's not just you can't here's the thing. You can't be who you are today and just single out Islam and say bye. be the reason Islam is becoming a problem even though it's inherently weak more than ever and you're inherently strong is because of so many of the sort of philosophies that western the western ep epistemology has absorbed. Okay. And uh that's what's allowing this. So I believe it's going to take an actual serious par paradigm shift. It's not just oh we're going to create one one or two policies which will take care of it. I drew for example an analogy um you know Rupert Low >> and what he's saying and you know what he's saying how can I go against it I mean this is a man who cares about his country his people and he sees what's going on okay makes sense a lot of people like that >> but [snorts] he and he's saying things like you know not only are we going to stop migration we're going to reverse it and if you don't like our way our life you're going to leave and I'm and a lot of people I've heard tell me things like yeah you know we you know we've we've had it with Islam we want them all out okay now Here's the thing. Stopping migration itself seems so hard for a lot of these countries. >> Just culturally there's not the will. >> Yeah. I mean, look at here the United States, okay? It's, you know, you can say what you want to say, but as I understand it, ICE is, and I haven't followed it, so maybe, you know, but my point is you're an illegal alien. You don't belong here. And it's supposedly, as I understand it, they're going after criminal elements. What is I mean that if you can't get behind that, you think you're going to get you think the UK, which is even more liberal than America, is going to get behind kicking Muslims out of their country who've been there for years. >> So that's what I'm trying to say. It's it's not as easy as you know people can talk the talk but actually implementing these policies and even if you stopped all the immigration uh these Muslim countries I've already told you for example Pew poll or a Pew report said that by 2050 Germany is about set to be 20% uh Muslim and that's if migration stops. >> Whoa. >> Which it hasn't. Okay. So I think that's what I mean by the myopia where again Muslims are lock step keeping with their the continuum of their history which you know sometimes you have massive takeovers um sometimes it's slow and I I think it's very important to understand something which might help you and your audience which is when I talk about Muslims the way I do I think you might it sounds like man you're really demonizing them and they're these evil people and it's you know that's that's not right. I mean, people are people. And the thing is, they don't see themselves as evil. And I'm not even saying they're evil. My point is, they always see themselves as the good guy. Even when they're doing the jihad and killing and lying because Islam is right. Islam is good. You people are pathetic infidels. Look at the way you live. >> It's what God wants >> and we are helping bring it in any which way we can. You know, the ends justify the means. In their mind, they're good. So, they're not demoralized in any way, shape, or form. You know, you were talking about sort of, you know, it's their time. Yeah. that's how they see it and uh they're doing what they're doing. Whereas the west is so utterly demoralized and uh you know so so defeist so just going out of its way essentially to make itself extinct by going out of its way I mean what kind of society you look at the UK for example allows Muslims to come in waving ISIS flags but then if you're an actual Brit waving I don't know a St. George flag. >> That's crazy, >> isn't it? Think of think about it. That's surreal to me. And that's the See, that's the problem. >> Sorry, I didn't even let you finish the sentence. You get in trouble for waving the British flag. That's wild. >> That is to me the problem. It's not the Muslims. I've I say this often, by the way. The Muslims aren't the issue because you know what? They're not coming with swords and spears like they used to and Europeans had to fight them. You people always say, "Oh, UK is being invaded." No, they're not being invaded. You're being they're being invited. you're inviting them. This is your problem. You're doing this to yourselves. And I think people need to understand that it's a much it's a much easier message and more comforting to just, oh, Muslims are evil and I hate them and whine about it. And it's more it's more, I think, um, you know, realistic to just be kind of like whatever you think about Islam. It's you guys who are doing this. You are the You can look at a country like Hungary or Poland. They don't put up with this. They put up little fences and they have no more problems. Okay? Then the Hungary and Poland are not a superpower compared to France and England, okay? Or the UK. So, uh, a I think a lot of people need to understand that it's it's it is a problem and it is getting worse and a lot of it has to do with you, not you per se, but you as a society, as a culture. The Muslims, like you're pointing out, yeah, it's my time. I'm doing I I believe in it. I'm bringing good stuff, you know, and and they're propelled by that. But it's kind of like if you don't have anything, if you have no cultural or any religion or heritage that you want to that you feel is behind your civilization, then yeah, you'll you'll just be like an open vacuum and something else is going to fill it. [snorts] >> Okay. So, if we're in a position where you've got the UK is inviting people in, uh, we've got this historical pattern that repeats, we're worried about that historical pattern because it tends to be when we're weak, we're essentially tolerant, when we get strong, we then start forcing our religion on other people. Um, I get that. And let's say that it played out that way. if nothing [snorts] was done about it, why instead of a Rupert Low and trying to reverse immigration and sending everybody back, why aren't we um really looking at the um community, the the Muslim community and saying, "You guys need an enlightenment." Now, I know Sam Harris had really, I think, tried to go down that road. That always resonated with me. Um, why can't Islam or maybe you think it can, but um, can Islam have an enlightenment and truly reform itself? >> Well, I I I mean I the way I'm hearing it is sort of ironic because you or Sam Harris, Muslims don't care what you think and for you to come tell them you need an enlightenment. You're you're the enemy. You're the de facto. Anyway, I already told you you're the infidel. So am I. So forget about us telling them anything about an enlightenment. Now if if it organically can develop from Muslims themselves that's that's where it would have to come of course. So basically um what I think is first of all when it comes to the word reform and here again we go this I think what's going on is um [snorts] western projection you know they think of the reformation which of course is seen as a good thing because most westerners are protestants is [snorts] um they okay so what was the reformation mechanically what happened technically what [snorts] happened is you can say is there it goes around the idea of solos scriptorra right which is uh we're done with clergy Y and hierarchies and the church and you know popery as it was called and we're just going to go with the Bible. Okay. >> So it's me having a direct relationship with the Bible. >> Yeah. It's and and and that um and then when that happened okay well especially as you were saying and you look at the New Testament which for Christians of course is more important uh this is the actual meaning right you find a lot of you know positive passive um non-hatefilled etc etc. Okay. Now, the the interesting thing is, and I've said this before, something of something akin to that reformation is actually already happening in the Islamic world, but it's leading to almost a more radicalization >> because the texts are so different. So, I'll explain. Islam historically, most Muslims, like most Europeans, were illiterate. No one had owned the Quran. It was just the leaders who maybe could read it or actually mostly they would recite it. they memorized it by route >> and um so you know you had the I told you the scholars they were a major role of articulating Islam okay now when you move to the modern or like let's say now and for last century um the Quran Muslims are much more literate the Quran is now available it's being translated in many languages it's on the internet even more uh uh telling is the the entire corpus of the hadith which is massive. The hadith is the recordings of what Muhammad said and did >> which is part of Islamic law depending on. >> So we've got the writing and then we've got the speaking. >> It's all there at everyone's fingertip. Okay. So so it's almost like a you know the Protestant thing and that okay the Bible is now accessible. It's been translated. Um, but it's leading to more radicalization because when you if you're just your regular Muslim and you look at some of these texts and it says things like Muhammad saying, "Kill the apostate, kill the blasphemer, wage war on the Christian, subjugate them." That is prone to leading to more radicalization. Whereas historically, yeah, that was part of the corpus. But the scholars put it in a in a way. I mean the hostility was there and the war on the the infidel was part of it but it was a little more systematized and a little more pragmatic. Okay. Whereas now you have just and this is so to me the rise of radical Muslims as they're called. They are they are the the Muslim Protestants in the sense that they just don't listen to any particular cleric. They read and they access the text themselves >> and as it happen so how can we how can you have the same methodology which is people going solos scriptorra by to their text and yet one's religion comes out good and one comes out bad and this is hard for the relativistic mindset to understand but it's because the text starts very different the bottom line is forget about reformation in Islam now enlightenment that's possible but what an enlightenment to me what an enlightenment means is just kind of like uh all right we've lost faith in this religion, but we're just going to keep it as an outer trapping because it's part of our culture. >> And is that possible? Maybe. Sure. I mean, yeah. If if Muslims collectively can do that, um, I suppose, but I don't see that happening right now or at any time. And again, one of the reasons is because Muslims are pragmatic and when their religion is perceived as helping empower them, they like it. when it was seen during the colonial era as some backward relic there. I was watching a video for example of um Gamal Abdul Nasser the Egyptian president in the 50s and you know suit and tie like everyone else and he makes a in one video he it's in Arabic he he mocks the hijab you know the what women wear and everyone laughs about it you go to Egypt now every every woman is in a hijab so why was he and the Egyptians like that in the 50s and all throughout the early 20th century and in the late 19th 19th century it was because They were emulating the European colonial colonizers who were seen as the strong horse and hey we want to be like that. We want to have what they have. We want to when I told you about he's he's the he's the paradmatic example of Turkey, you know, he went from Turkey went from like I I was telling you really this the jihadist scourge of Europe to being the first Muslim country to get rid of it all and actually do everything possible to be westernized. Why? because it still had the same impetus of wanting to be powerful, but Islam had failed at this point. So now let's let's do what they're doing. But in as much as the West lost its confidence, and now all it has is just technology and and the material, so too has it pushed Muslims back, rightfully so, or at least logically so, to their own heritage. >> Yeah. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Now, spinning that off into something really tangible, um, have you ever thought about just the raw difference in outcomes that you're going to get if you tell people to emulate Jesus and if you tell them to emulate Muhammad who uh, if I remember correctly? Muhammad had a um, sword, a uh, what is it? A sitar. >> Scimitar. Yeah, >> scimitar that [snorts] was named like splitter of vertebrae or something like that. Mhm. Good for you. >> When I was reading that, I was like, yo, like the So Jesus has like all this soft vibes like I'm here to be kind to prostitutes and tip over the money makers and help the poor people and wash feet and forgive the guy that betrayed me. And the other guy has a battle sword called the splitter of vertebrae. And it's like, damn, I get why some people might be like, well, hold on. That feels pretty dope. I've been looked down on. I'm low class, whatever. I want to rock with the guy that's got the splitter of vertebrae. >> And this is actually why this is a whole deep topic. This is actually part of this book. But this the Jesus, the way you [clears throat] characterize him, which is the way most Americans and Christians even characterize him, [snorts] I I take [clears throat] some umbrage with that characterization. um in in not that you're wrong to say that of course Jesus is not Muhammad um but there is I think um if you will I don't want I don't know if I want a militant side even to Christianity not necessarily physical not war >> but assertive muscular Christianity which I'm a I'm a firm believer and a promoter of that's what this book was about the two swords of Christ um which is the military orders if you look at these guys and how they understood Christianity it will blow your mind and but they use the same Bible And they use the same verses. It's called two swords because for example Jesus said in one of the verses in in Luke he uh maybe you know it where he says uh if you don't have a sword sell your cloak and buy one. And the pro and the his disciples say Lord look here are two swords. They found two swords. He said that's enough. So to your modern day Christian who would go by the the description you gave of Christ. That means nothing. Okay. So today if you ask an interpreter what does that mean? Well it means nothing. he's just being parabolic or whatever. To the early Christians, especially medieval Christians, what he was saying is there are two com there's two enemies in this world. One, one is a spiritual enemy and you need a spiritual sword, which modern day Christians I think would agree. The other one was was a secular material enemy and you need a secular sword. Okay, which would be for example um the military arm of a society. And that's how actually it was understood. So my point is, and I'm going to I want to tie this to Islam because that's what we're talking about and what you just said, but my point is in many ways, Christianity has been emasculated and epheminized from what it was. It wasn't always like this. People want to think that, you know, there there's a reason crusaders could have existed and could have been so ferocious and violent and yet be more pious, believe it or not, they were dying for their faith than people today. And so now let's let's go back to what you're saying where, you know, I can see why a person would find the Muhammad vertebrae sword kind of appealing as opposed to I call it doormat Christianity. This idea that, you know, Christianity is just I'm your doormat. Come wipe your feet on me and I'm I'll do nothing. And a lot of Western men are either not are losing their Christianity and even some are converting to Islam because they find that sort of militant, muscular, masculine side appealing. So I do so on the one hand what I'm trying to say is there is that problem going on today in western nations in how Christianity is understood and I'm not trying to say Christianity has jihad and no but there is just war okay that was something that was always a long long time ago articulated no one had problems with it [snorts] but today it seems to me a lot of modern Christians and just western people in general don't believe that you can't be in any way shape or form violent ever that was not at all the way they understood it and in as much as westerners and Christians feel that It's only natural a lot of men are just dropping out of Christianity and it's even more natural that a lot of them you know the Andrew Tate phenomena where you know they're gravitating towards Islam because it's seen as a patriarchal kind of masculine religion. So it's kind of unfortunate because Christianity had that's what chivalry was. Chivalry was yeah masculinity is there but we're going to tame it and use it for righteous causes. But without it, you know, things go willy-nilly and you can end up with a really toxic kind of masculinity. >> Now, do you think that Western culture at large needs to draw a line? uh find that more masculine version of itself to have a new reformation where we begin reinterpreting some of the verses in a way that that say basically be strong, be able to wield the sword but keep it sheathed so that we can draw a line and say listen this is our culture and leave it alone. >> And I but I wouldn't call it reinterpreting. I would I would say it would be reclaiming. I mean that is the historic past of Christianity. So it's not new. It's it's just been forgotten and jettisoned, demonized perhaps. Um but [clears throat] yeah, it's good because it's it's used solely for defense. You know, no Christian I'm not saying Christianity should go on the offense, but yeah, you defend your world, your civilization, your people, your family. Okay? And you know, this goes back to illegals jumping over, you know, uh fences and whatever. um Christianity, there's a reason most Christian nations up until now in the United States would agree capital punishment. So I think the idea of the problem is just too many people have um just have come to believe that Christianity begins and ends with literally being a doormat and that actually feeds into these problems that we're talking about. Even if you're not Christian, the bottom line is if you're not Christian, if you're an atheist, if you're born and you kind of hinted at this, if you're born and raised in this western mulu, you're going to be you are a Christian despite yourself. Forget about the theology. Forget about the veneer and saying I believe in Jesus and that sort of thing. You are made and forged by centuries of Christianity. And to me, that's that's the more solid thing that we're really talking about. And when people don't realize that and they say no no no like secular western Europe is is uh has nothing to do with Christianity everything all the all the things that atheists and secularists prize is inconceivable without Christianity why [snorts] why did it come from Europe humanism you know the the everything we talking about tolerance and mercy that didn't come from Confucious China didn't come from Islam didn't come from Hinduism okay there's a reason it happened in Europe and it's not people again the fake history is like it rose um it rose in Europe in defiance or against Christianity. No, it actually Christianity was the seeds because if it was it was a matter of defiance, well, it could have risen in the Middle East against defiance against Islam. It could have risen anywhere. So, I think people need to understand that I personally am not very much interested in going and telling people what to believe the theologically. But I do believe Christianity as a civilizational cultural force is something not to be ignored and and just discarded because without you knowing it um it is really the bedrock of everything we all like and we all love and we want to preserve. >> All right. all the stuff that we've talked about today, how much of your interpretation of what is happening, what should happen in the [snorts] future is predicated on your belief that Christianity is the word of God and ought to be [clears throat] the way that somebody lives. >> I'll tell you this that a lot of people think I'm I'm like a hardcore Christian. I'm really not. And it's probably because I write these books which deal with Christianity. I see myself more as a civilizational Christian. Okay? not the not the spiritual Christian. This doesn't mean I don't have a spiritual life. I'm just saying that to me is um more important. But what I'll tell you is this that with me, if anything brought me back to religion, it's my objective study of history and what I'm seeing around us today. They are actually constantly validating the truths of Christianity. It's not vice versa. I think most people approach it differently. They read the Bible, they memorize verses or or theological doctrines and they project it and what's happening. I'm the opposite. I looked at it secularly. Okay. And I accepted it like that. But then the more I look at it, the more it keeps converging and coming back to these issues about Christianity. Um I'll tell I'll give you I'll leave you with a final anecdote which is going to amuse you. Okay. So in my field um again to show you how some of these things that seem laughable you know these Christian teachings or ideas that are superstitious and how they come back to haunt us. So in the 7th century we talked about the Arab conquest of um Christian lands and amongst historians today until now it's seen as one of the great mysteries of history because at the time the Arabs 7th century they are just an impoverished they're described even in their own sources as you know half naked no weapons you know just no sophistication whatsoever and then you have the Roman Empire which we call the Byzantine Empire which is still very powerful and you have um this which is a superpower in the 7th century and then you have the Persians also, which is another superpower. And so the mystery is how did these Bedawins all of a sudden overrun both of them and conquer all the land that I told you. So not only Persia, but all of you know Christian Syria, greater Syria, and all of North Africa and all of Spain. That was always a mystery until now. And there's all kinds of theories that historians give, but they're just conjectural. Now, what's funny to me, [laughter] and I know your audience is I don't know if they're going to like they're not going to like this, but but okay, they'll get a kick out of it, maybe. What's funny to me is that um if you look at what the Christians said of the time, how did they rationalize this? You know what they said? They said God was punishing us for our sins. >> Okay, now I've read that in college. I wrote my thesis about, you know, the Islamic conquest and well, like your average historian. I was like, "Yeah, okay, whatever. Obviously, that's not the case. Okay, that's not why it really happened. And the one key text that every Christian would quote, and it was written about 690, okay, so this is the height of the Islamic conquest. Almost all of North Africa is now conquered and the Middle East and it's on the verge of going in Spain. It's [snorts] known as the apocalypse. It was written in Syriak. And the whole thing is, yeah, God is punishing us because of sexual immorality because men are dressing like women. Women are dressing like men, believe it or not. >> That's wild. No, yeah, but watch it gets more interesting and this is why. Okay, so that's what it said. And and that text kept circulating and in 1683, a million later when um when um Muslims were besieging Vienna, they were reproducing and publishing and disseminating it. So people understand why this is happening because we've sinned again and sexually immoral immorally. Now, why I bring this up and I find it interesting is look at the conversation we're having about Islam in Europe. Islam is weaker than it's ever. Okay. So, if the Muslims the the big mystery of the seventh century is the Muslims are a lot weaker and they beat the Romans. Let's say they were, you know, 10 times weaker at the time. Today, as we've just pointed out, militarily, economically, technologically, Europe's what, a thousand times stronger than the Muslim world. Okay? And yet, isn't it interesting that Muslims are such a thorn, such a problem taking over Europe and whatnot? And at the same time there's people pointing out that u you know if if it was because of crossdressing and sexual immorality. I think uh there's a lot more of that today. So I just so this is an example of me telling you I read that I didn't that didn't convince me but now I'm watching reality unfold in front of me and like yeah things are starting to make more sense in a way. Do you think that >> so my so to answer your original question it's not that my Christianity colors the way it's actually what I'm seeing kind of makes me uh validates Christianity for me >> interesting let me see if I understand that so there's two ways to interpret that beat if you look at it as this is a thing that repeats throughout history that there are these times where uh we let go of conservatism perhaps is the right way to say it around sexual mores that uh there's like gender bending and So people are men are very comfortable being affeminate, women are very comfortable being masculine and and that sort of sweeps whether it went all the way to where we're at now where you know it's a trans phenomenon uh up in the air. But so way number one would be that um >> when a culture starts to do that, God actually punishes you. Way number two is that that happens at a time where your >> um your culture becomes too pur potent. What I mean by that is when you take a stem cell and you have a like skin cell let's say and you want to make it pur potent so it could become anything again um you you run the risk of differentiating to the point where the the integrity of the cell begins to fall apart. So you have to be careful not to turn a cell like that into a cancer cell that just divides infinitely. >> Uh aging is supposedly when you the cells in your body are differentiating. So an eye cell is also sort of a heart cell also sort of a skin cell. And so you lose the like the distinctions in a society that we have to sort of force on people. And your society gets to a point I believe because you've had prosperity for so long you haven't been challenged. The thing that I always tell people is >> we need to be chased by a lion. Like we need a difficulty. We need a threat that forces us to have structure to say yes to this, no to that. And when you have prosperity for too long, you begin to lose that. Success seems like a natural law of order. And so you just sort of let anything go and you're not forcing people to be disciplined, to work hard, to stay focused, reward meritocracy, etc., etc. And so as almost as a physics response to prolonged prosperity, we find ourselves in this differentiated state and then whoever is hyper differentiated, believes in their culture, has conviction to say, "Nope, you guys are stupid. We're going to come in and take over." That that's why those two things may happen at the same time. Are you saying it's God just doesn't like it, so I'm gonna, you know, send an army to take you down? Or do you think that this is >> like what I was saying where it just sort of is a thing that corresponds with >> a problem within society? >> I think it could be both. Okay. And and and the go the I only brought the God thing up because you asked me directly like how my faith fits into this. And I was trying to give you an example that it's not so much that I'm I I approach it thinking about theology. It's rather I didn't think about theology, but then by looking at it, it actually makes me wonder. So I actually didn't even finish my idea. What I was trying to say is so you know, okay, so in the seventh century, the Arabs did what they did and they said Christians said it was sexual immorality and the Muslims or Arabs were 10 times weaker than than Rome. So how did that happen? That's why it's a mystery for us. I believe you know a century from now, two centuries from now, three centuries from now, the world, the posterity will look and let's say Muslims do overrun Europe and they're going to be like how did this that is going to be much greater mystery that how did these guys who were so weak their countries migrants coming capand poor and Europe was so powerful. So that will be one of those amazing mysteries okay where people will again be trying to come up with conjectures. So now put that aside. I'm just saying I'm just trying to show you that it's not that my religion guides me. It's if anything it's history is making my me believe more in religion. But now what you said of course that's that's also just as plausible. Okay. Which is you don't have to give it a a theological um explanation. Okay. Um it could be just okay. What I mean what's what's that what's that saying? you know, like strong men create strong societies and then, you know, strong societies create weak men and weak men create weak societies, etc. So, it's a cycle. That that definitely makes sense. And, you know, and and whoever has the eye of the tiger, if it's the Muslims, they're going to want it more. So, of course, I'm not discounting that either. Um, ultimately I was just trying to answer your question about me and my religious lens to show you that if anything it's studying history and current events that actually makes me look back and go, "Well, yeah, that kind of makes sense now, not vice versa, >> where I'm forcibly applying theology, >> which people do, by the way, and I don't care for that." >> Okay. For a moderate Muslim who's watched this whole thing, they're with us still. um and they have parsed all this but they feel directly attacked by your philosophies. What would you want to say to them? >> If this is a truly moderate Muslim, they shouldn't feel attacked and I think they should agree with me because they should know. Again, I've not attacked any particular Muslim by saying you are this. I've talked about a body of beliefs and religion Islam. Any so-called moderate Muslim, I can't if they were to say, "Oh, no, you're wrong about the history or you're wrong about Muhammad saying kill the apostate." that's your books. Most of this is from Muslim books that I'm telling you, including the history. So I if they're really genuinely moderate, I think they would agree with me and say, "Yeah, you're right. Um, but I'm moderate for whatever reason. I've rationalized it this way." If they actually attack me, then then that's the tea Muslim. That's the one who's, you know, playing that little game and saying, "No, no, Islam is peace and this guy is a liar." But and I've met a lot of um you know a lot of Muslims who you know if you want to call them moderate what they are is they're secular Muslims. They're nominal Muslims, cultural Muslims and they don't want to break away because that's their heritage and there's a sense of loyalty and kinship to their people. That's it. But they're not necessarily reading the Quran or believing in any of that sort of thing. And those people I would imagine uh if they heard me, if they know anything about Islam, they would agree quietly secretly to themselves. So I don't think that should draw any eye from them towards me. All right, man. This has been incredible. Where can people follow along with you? >> Thanks. Um um well, you know, my I have so my books you can get them. They're on my website. They're on Amazon. Um I suggest if anyone's interested in this particular topic, Sword and Scimitar, which this is this is the third of a trilogy. The first one is Sword and Scimitar. And if they like that, they can pursue them. But that one gives you the really the general introduction to the overall history that we've that I barely touched on between Islam and the West. Um, and then I also have a Substack which people can just look up with my name. And my YouTube channel is out there as well under my name. >> I think it's just my name, but it's called the Holy War channel because I talk about crusades and jihads. >> Nice. I love it. As somebody who's watched a lot of your content, I highly recommend people check it out. >> I appreciate that. >> All right, boys and girls, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace. If you like this conversation, check out this episode to learn more. Of the 47 nations in Europe, all 47 require governmentissued photo ID to vote. India, a country where 63% of the population live in rural areas and where hundreds of millions