Video summary
The video explores the complex relationship between theatrical expression and sexuality, challenging the common assumption that being gay is a prerequisite for acting or dancing. The speaker argues that in a heteronormative society, intense emotional expression, singing, and dancing are often conflated with homosexuality, yet these artistic pursuits can be driven by a desire for glory and human triumph rather than sexual orientation. He reflects on his own background, noting that while he shares interests like Dragon Ball Z or ballet with some gay individuals, his attraction to women remains constant. The core of his argument is that the need to be witnessed and validated on stage is a universal artistic drive that transcends gender identity, even if society mistakenly labels such vulnerability as inherently queer.
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the harsh realities faced by dancers and choreographers, who often endure physical injury and financial instability without union protection. The speaker contrasts his own path with that of his sister, a successful backup dancer who faces exploitation and low pay, highlighting how the industry relies on a cycle where dancers eventually become choreographers despite limited success for most. He expresses admiration for the "thrilling lives" dancers lead while expressing them nightly, yet acknowledges the tragic reality that many are physically crippled by their profession in their thirties. This dedication is portrayed as a form of living close to the sun, accepting the risk of burning out for the sake of artistic expression and the love of movement itself.
The conversation also touches on specific cinematic examples that blur the lines between commercial entertainment and high art, such as *Black Swan* and *Gone Girl*, which the speaker jokingly categorizes as "Lifetime movies" due to their dramatic intensity. He praises films like *Footloose* for their abstract dance sequences and discusses the career trajectory of Fosse, who struggled to remain a leading man despite his choreography skills. The dialogue includes anecdotes about famous figures like Michael Jackson, noting the strange dynamic between pop stars and serious artists in the dance world. Ultimately, the speaker concludes that while the industry has its dark sides and capitalist pressures, the ability to move one's whole body to express truth remains a unique and powerful human experience that deserves respect regardless of how it is perceived by outsiders.
Read the full video transcript
How about uh heterosexuality? You've
been you've been you've been firm cuz
you seem you you're very theatrical.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> You have a touch of the gays, we'll call
it.
>> Sure.
>> More than a touch.
>> Uh do you How was that Did you Was that
ever a thing?
>> No. I mean, I think the opportunity was
was there if I wanted to lean into it at
any point?
>> Yeah. But I'm just saying like you were
heteros you just like you always liked
women and you were like, "All right."
Yeah. Yeah.
>> And did you ever try to like be more
mask as
>> No, I think I my mom told me when I was
a kid, I came home one day and was like,
"Mom, I realize I'm different from other
people and I'm okay with that." And in
in a way, it's it's some version of like
there's some things I vibe with guys.
Like I can talk about Dragon Ball Z in a
way that I think with some straight guys
would be like, "Oh yeah, he's a dude."
>> And then I never gravitated to sports. I
never liked Star Wars. I like dancing.
There's pictures of me as a little kid,
you know, putting on my mom's heels. I
like to go to ballet class and and you
know, these things get conflated with
with homosexuality in a way that like
>> I I had a gay friend
>> where I I kind of was talking to him. I
was like I was like, why did theater
>> why is theater such a haven for for for
gay people? And and and part of it he
said was like because in high school you
can't express yourself in a lot of
places and in theater you get you get to
express something. You you you're
feeling different.
>> Yeah. It opens the it opens up the band.
>> Yeah. And that's what I have. And I do
think like certainly in a
heteronormative world
it becomes so closely associated with
with being gay.
>> Wanting to be wanting to express more
emotions is considered gay.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> And then singing them that takes it to
the next level
>> of course. And dancing.
>> I mean forget it. Uh,
is there so it's like when you're
performing even that thing of like I
want to be witnessed, do you want to be
sexually desired by women?
>> Yes.
>> Or is it more like glory? Do you know
what I mean? Like I want women to like
I'm aware that when I'm on stage I would
like women to think I'm attractive. Is
that a consideration for you?
>> It is. But glory is definitely the super
the super one. It's it's like
when I like listen to music and a lot of
times women belting I'm visualizing a
kind of me performing and witnessing it
in some like godlike way
>> and I'm belting the songs and and I
remember in high school when I had like
an ex, you know, it was like I'm singing
My Chemical Romance and she's watching
me and everyone's watching me. It's like
that's constructing narratives and the
glory not not necessarily and then
everyone's going to [ __ ] me. Yeah.
>> But the narrative of like I am I am
expressing so so intensely and
everyone's watching. That's the fantasy
>> like it's a human triumph.
>> Yeah. Black Swan
is
>> not a good movie. Thank you.
>> Maybe cliche.
>> Thank you for saying it. It's guys,
Black Swan is a Lifetime movie about
ballet about ballet with some
interesting imagery in the second to
third act.
>> What are Oscar winning movies but
lifetime movies with amazing
>> Go ahead. Same for uh Gone Girl. It's a
Lifetime movie and I told Jeff Cronorth,
who's the DP, that that's what I thought
of it. He's a buddy of mine and we do
commercials together. Go ahead.
>> When she dies performing,
the greatest thing ever. I watch that
and I go, "Yeah, yeah, I [ __ ] get it.
I get it." Amazing.
>> I know people like, "I'm not like you.
I'm just not like like Jerry Zold said
on this podcast, like, do you go
negative on yourself?"
>> Oh, sure.
>> What's the tone?
>> Well, why are you even doing this? You
ever hear this on stage while you're
performing? Why are you doing this? You
You shouldn't even be on stage. You
should just be a writer. You're
obviously just a writer who is
performing these things.
>> He thinks he's a writer. I think I'm on
stage. There are points where I feel
like I'm
so I'm envious of the the uh you move on
stage like you are dying to be
witnessed.
>> You want cute jokes, go see a Christian
comedian.
>> Jews have a dark sense of humor cuz when
you're hiding in a closet from the
Nazis, you can't be like knock.
>> Yeah. Well, I'm dancing like I think I'm
like I'm like Yeah. I I can't dance
unfortunately, but I do. And I I added
enough [ __ ] to convince people to watch
me dance. I had to work so hard on these
jokes just to get them to watch me
prance around.
>> It's a long way to go for for for Alvin
Haley.
>> I'm Alvin Haley. I'm a choreographer. I
create movement and I'm searching for
truth in movement.
>> Yeah.
>> Um just cut off the middleman.
>> Yeah.
>> Take it. And you've taken you've taken
the classes and it just didn't happen
for you. so uncordinated. My sister uh
one of my sisters is a real is a real
dancer. Um she just did um Sabrina
Carpenter at uh Coachella. She was one
of the dancers there. Oh, great. So,
she's like she's doing it. And we would
take
>> big money in in backup dancing.
>> Dancing these dancers
>> to make 175 bucks.
>> I I it's also one of these things
I I She's like do not speak about any of
my business because there's no power to
be wielded. But it's bad. Dancers
are so mistreated. There's no union.
>> It really is.
>> The things that she has had to put up
with and and the no money. There's no
big payday.
>> The top the most you know for is you're
a hot choreographer for a year and a
half.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's you're not going to really
make any money on that either.
>> And by the way, every dancer's uh
retirement plan is to become a
choreographer. It's like and it's like
Yeah. You can't You're not all going to
be able to do it.
>> Three of you are.
>> Yeah.
>> And the three that are going to do it
are not good people.
>> Yeah.
>> I've never met them and I'm like, "Oh, I
know. I can see from the outside. I've
walked past the place on Melrose and
been like, "Oh, yeah. These people are I
feel bad for them cuz they're clearly
there for the love of it." But I look at
them and I go, "What a cool what a cool
life." You go on stage, I try to express
myself with my voice. You get to express
yourself by [ __ ] moving your whole
body. And you're all I mean, dear god,
the the these dancers, I'm I'm sure it's
just orgies on the road. They're just
[ __ ] They're all beautiful. They're
all They're all They're all expressing
every night. They're they're all just
living these thrilling lives. And then,
you know, they they're crippled at 32
and it's over.
>> Yeah. They tear something and then it's
>> But what a life. I mean, but they fly
close to the sun boy. I mean, they're
going to get they're going to get
singed, but for that,
>> if I look back when I like I think back,
I'm like, oo, maybe if I had started
dancing when I was four, I could have
been because it seems so [ __ ] cool to
be a
>> It's funny. That's another thing where I
see it and I just go like I think it's
cool. I But then I'm so like capitalist
or whatever that I'm just like you got
to make a living.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Like what are you gonna like when girls
girls like dancers and I'm like so
what's going to happen when he can't pay
the mortgage?
>> Sure.
>> Like baby dance for them. Go to the go
down to the bank and do one of the
do the do the thing from the Timberlake
tour.
>> Uhhuh.
>> It's not going to cut it.
>> I read FY's book. It was a book about
Fosian. He really It's a It's a good
>> That's a good movie. I mean, it's
>> Which one?
>> Uh the voice,
>> all that jazz.
>> Yeah.
>> That's a I mean, it's like very
nonlinear, but if you're talking about
if you want to see cool abstract dance
sequences.
>> Yeah.
>> And like mental
>> That's I I'll submit that.
>> All of FSY's movies are I mean, Lenny's
a great movie.
>> I only saw it once.
>> It's worth seeing again. And then and
then uh Cabaret is brilliant. I've never
seen any version of Cabaret, but I
believe I'd like it.
>> It's really good.
>> But I think it was surprising was like
how long he tried to still maybe be a
leading man. He really like even as his
choreography career everything was taken
off. There was still every once in a
while he'd go be lead in a musical like
and he didn't have the talent. He didn't
have the talent to be a leading guy.
>> Good singer but not a or a good dancer,
not a not a very good singer.
>> Yeah. Just didn't have the charisma. Do
you go and watch them the at the like
the Lincoln Center? Like you go back and
watch all the production.
>> I did it once. I mean it's it's not fun.
You you don't have to. I saw it was the
production of the seagull and it was
like Philip Sumer Hoffman, Natalie
Portman when she was 18, Mel Stre
Goodman, Christopher Walk in a crazy
production.
>> So it's fine, you know. It's it's a it's
a pro shot. It's
>> the fy Michael Jackson split screen is
like
>> insane.
>> That's you can't believe it.
>> Yeah. You were literally like what? You
are. Yeah. If you don't know what I'm
talking about, I'll we'll put it up
here.
>> They met in the book. In the book, they
mention how they met and FSY was weirded
out by Michael.
>> Yeah.
>> And he did. He was like, I don't know if
I want to work with this guy.
>> Did they he wanted to work with him?
Michael.
>> Yeah. Michael reached out like I'm sure
like a pop star like come swing by.
Let's talk.
>> Yeah. Uh
>> it's crazy.
>> Yep. A lot of people have those stories.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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