The UNHEALTHY FOODS You Eat Everyday That Cause DISEASE & INFLAMMATION | Naveen Jain

Your oral microbiome is directly connected to your heart disease. It's connected to your diabetes. It's connected to neurodegenerative diseases, especially Alzheimer's. We as humanity will wipe out the cancer from the human body. Dr. Jain welcome back to the show. Well, first of all, this is one of the few places I come back and just have such great memories. Dude, it's a lot of fun anytime that we get to spend time together, especially I'm so obsessed with the same thing you're obsessed with which is the microbiome. And I want to ask of the healthy foods that people think are making their life better, what should people actually be avoiding? Well, the interesting thing is there's no such thing as universal healthy food. There's no such thing as universally good. But what about universally bad? So, universally bad is absolutely true. So, for example, sugar is just bad for everyone. It is no one who would say Because it's refined or like in a natural state would we be okay? state it is much better. But especially in the processed state. And there are many reasons. Obviously, it's starting from the top of the tube, your digestive tube in your mouth. Every time you eat something that has processed sugar or even sugar, your oral microbes actually use that to produce lactic acid. That changes the pH of your oral microbiome. And now as we are learning, similar to like you and I were obsessed about gut microbiome, in the last 2 years what we're learning is your oral microbiome is directly connected to your heart disease. It's connected to your diabetes. It's connected to neurodegenerative diseases, especially Alzheimer's. Really fast, and I do want to get into the actual foods that people need to be avoiding other than sugar. But give us a quick primer on the enteric nervous system. So, I've heard you say the word donut with a tube through it. That's right. Which I think will hit people very strangely. But what is the enteric digestive tract? Okay. So, your digestive tract, as you can imagine, it starts from the top of the tube in your mouth. So, that's where you start the things. And I don't know about you, my mom used to always say, you know, eat slowly, chew your food. And I always wondered why she worried that some other food is going to get stuck in my throat. Well, it turns out she was must have been a scientist because when you chew your food and you eat slowly, your microbes in your mouth, the oral microbiome, is starting to pre-digest the food so the nutrition can be absorbed in your digestive tract. So, there's signaling going on between the oral microbiome and the microbiome in your gut. But, more than just a signaling, first of all, the microbiome itself is pre-digesting the food and it's sending the signal to the body, the different organs. Through the vagus nerve? Through the metabolites that it releases, right? So, wait, wait, wait. You're saying that as I'm chewing, I'm breaking down the food into the metabolites? That's right. Those metabolites are beating the food to the digestive tract? The microbiome poops out the metabolites which is microbiome it that fast? As I chew, I'm already sending signals? Already sending signal to pancreas. So, every time you eat food and you sweet, it sends a signal to pancreas, "Hey, the sweetest stuff is coming, the sugar is coming. You start releasing the insulin." Mhm. And when you eat artificial sweetener, guess what happens? The insulin is all there, but the insulin has nothing to do because there's no glucose to process. And now the people who eat diet stuff, diet soda, diet stuff, thinking they're doing good, and now they become insulin resistant. They They end up getting diabetes because they're taking lot of the artificial sweeteners. I want to get back to that cuz anecdotally is the only thing I can speak to that didn't seem to be my experience. But, let's set that aside. So, I'm chewing something, I'm sending a a metabolite-based signal to my digestive So, I'm pre-digesting it and sending a metabolite-based signal down to the gut. Gut and the rest of the body. Remember, the blood carries the stuff that metabolites are absorbed by the blood. So, as soon as they're absorbed, it's sending the signal to the whole body, right? Now, in addition to that, your gut is also sending the signal through the vagus nerve to the whole body, right? So, if you look at the V as humans, we are really a superorganism. We're 99% of all the genes that are expressed in our body are not our own. They don't come from our mom and dad. They actually come from these microbes that are in our mouth, in our gut, in our eyes, on our scalp, on our skin, and literally everywhere. And these microbes and us are in symbiotic relationship. And when that relationship gets broken is when your body is never at ease, and we call that disease is disease. Okay, so when it Do I have a microbiome in my stomach? Oh, that's right. Of course, your microbiome is all over your digestive tract, especially the 95% of that is in your gut or colon. Well, yeah, so the gut I know. I wasn't sure if in the acidic level of the stomach, we also have a microbiome. So, there's up in the small intestine, there is microbiome. And then there's literally it's all through the tract. And obviously, stomach has very high acid. But a lot of the people who take uh these proton pump inhibitors like Nexium, that now allows all the oral microbiome be swallowing, give or take about 1 and 1/2 L of saliva every day. And now, that saliva, when it goes to the stomach and there is no acid because you're taking proton pump inhibitors, now all those microbes are going to the gut where they don't belong. And some of the stuff, at least the research shows, the fusobacterium nucleatum, which is actually oral microbiome, is number one culprit for things like colon cancer. The number one culprit for colon cancer starts in the mouth? Mhm. That is shocking to say the least. Okay, we're going to get to cancer later. Okay, so I wanted that quick primer. You've got all these microbes. They start in your mouth. You have a tube that runs from your mouth through your stomach down to the small intestine, large intestine, colon. We have a an ability to break those nutrients down through the digestive process. The microbes also, as you said, poop out metabolites that we then absorb into the body. So, we actually want these things. Why is it going back to the foods that we shouldn't be eating? So, we have sugar as a universal, but there's probably caveats on that. But, are there other things that are universally problematic? Because the ratio is wrong? Because the chemical substrate gets altered? Like, what is the problem? I think we might be the perfect case study to break this down. So, I have a feeling as we talk that we're going to find that there's a lot of things that have happened that create the modern disease. Let me use wheat and tell me where I go wrong. So, one, we have to start with the soil. So, we've been doing monocrop. We've been putting Pesticides is what I was looking for. So, we're destroying the soil. The things Right, the bacteria, the viruses, the phages. Which we should talk about phages. I did some research on that in anticipation of this. We're creating a problem at the soil level. We're We're genetically engineering the wheat to be higher yield, to be more resistant to parasites, to be able to handle a larger dosage of pesticides, so on and so forth. And for whatever reason, gluten, at least in the US and other countries that use similar farming techniques, have now become really problematic for a lot of people because they break the epithelial lining for people keeping score at home, in the gut, which allows direct permeability between what should be a tube, allows actual proteins to make their way into the bloodstream. Or by the bacteria into the bloodstream. So, what's the bigger problem? What's I've always thought it was the protein, cuz with gluten in particular, gluten looks like a piece of the hypothalamus, if I remember correct, a part of the brain anyway. There's a protein made in a part of the brain that looks exactly like the protein in gluten, and that's part of why people get, quote unquote, brain fog. It's not as simple, right? So, in some sense, there are some people who may actually have a celiac disease, right? There the gluten does havoc to them, right? In general, if you think about gluten, there are about 1.4 billion people that live in India, right? They all eat gluten. So, it's not that gluten is good or bad. There are a couple of problems, how it is grown, and also how your microbes actually metabolize that, right? So, if you let's step back for a second, and just let's look at the human body, and then we'll come back to specific, because I think we dug too deep, too fast. So, let's back up for a second, and let's just start and say, we as humans coevolved together with these microorganism, right? So, as I was saying that, you one could argue that even within ourselves, we have these organelles, which are really like cytoplasm. You look at the things like mitochondria. So, mitochondria has its own DNA, which is separate from our human DNA, which is separate from the microbes that we are talking about. It's in fact our human cells are multi-organism. You would argue that in ancient cell these were different organisms that actually all got captured inside the same same cell. So we are really symbiotically made there. And then we looking at the complete or you know, as a superorganism, we consisting of 99% of all the genes that are coming from all the microorganism we talk about, right? 70% of our immune system is along our gut lining. Our microbes and our human human immune system is constantly interacting with each other. In fact, so much so when the baby is born, our microbiome is constantly teaching or teaching the immune system what's a friend, what's a foe. The fact is why is it there so many trillions of these bacteria can live inside us and immune system is not killing them. Why is that? Because if they think they are foreign substance, you will have a constant inflammation, the constant bombardment of the things trying to kill them. What's happening is as the baby is born, these organisms are starting to tell immune system we are part of self. Don't need to get paranoid. We are all working together. And then we together will detect when there is an attack on us, the pathogen that's coming from outside, and then we can actually work together. In fact, when the baby is born, the first few days, as thing we talked about last time, the first few days of mother's milk contains oligosaccharide, which is literally is a fiber. The oligosaccharides cannot be digested by the human body. It can only be digested or fermented by the microbes in your gut. And that through that the microbes are releasing butyrate, which are actually the you short-chain fatty acids, they are anti-inflammatory. So, imagine what nature is saying. Nature is saying, we just created this offspring to keep this offspring healthy and growing, we shouldn't be necessarily feeding it. You need to be feeding them to make sure that we are all together. And then, as you start to look at the first exposure to the microbiome, it starts in the birth canal. So, when the baby is being born, it's bathed with the birth canal, so vaginal microbiome. And that's really the first exposure you start to get. And then, as we start to grow, you could have identical twins that still have different diseases in different points, right? And we'll come back to it in terms of why the DNA that people say your genes are your destiny, why that is completely wrong. Right? But, we'll get to it in a second here. So, coming back to the human primer, we really are a superorganism that are symbiotically working together. When the relationship gets broken and we're not feeding these microbes what they need to survive, they start to scrounge around and they're starting to now do different things. Their behavior completely changes. So, it's not the organism change, they what functions they perform is constantly changing, right? So, same organism can produce something good in one person one environment, your gut environment, and the same organism in my toxic environment could produce something totally different to survive. Right? So, what happens is people take these probiotics. Like, Akkermansia is a great example. A lot of people take Akkermansia thinking it's good for you. That is the number one organism, if you Google Akkermansia and MS, that's the number one organism that's directly connected to causing MS. So, why is it? In some environment, Akkermansia produces good stuff like short-chain what environment is positive and what's negative? Yeah, yeah, it's actually So, when when you have the inflammation in the gut lining, remember Akkermansia's full name is Akkermansia mucinphila. By the way, you said remember, I had no idea, but I Yeah, so lover of mucin. Really? The mucinphila is a lover of mucin. So, it really lives in your mucin. And when you are essentially have high inflammation or you let's say you go on a long a long diet that you're not eating food, you're going on a 3-day fasting, it it starts to eat your mucin. All right, and now you all the barrier that we had created is gone. Your gut lining can get permeable. So, your gut lining gets permeable because the inflammation. What causes inflammation? Your microbes are producing things like lipopoli lipopolysaccharide LPS. High amount of protein fermentation causing uh producing ammonia or high amount of food that's producing a lot of sulfide. Lot of flagellar assembly. Lot of this stuff that's going on that's highly toxic. That causes the inflammation in the gut that breaks the boundary that breaks the intestinal barrier to be permeable. And then not only the food starts to go, the bacteria start and the viruses start to now translocate into the blood causing a systemic inflammation. And by the way, same thing happens in your mouth. When you have a bleeding gums or leaky gums just like a leaky gut, you have leaky gums, guess what? When it's bleeding, all the microbes from your mouth are going into the blood causing the same systemic inflammation. And that's what causes the systemic diseases in different organs. Okay, so now that we have that set up, let's go back to wheat. Wheat, yeah. So, there's a lot of things that have happened in a modern context that alter the way that we respond to wheat. Uh do What is the bigger problem? Is And look, I get that this stuff is all so intertwined, but you hear a lot about, well, if you eat bread in Europe, you're not going to have the same negative inflammatory response you're going to have if you eat it here. So, is the bigger problem that a modern diet is changing the makeup of your microbiome, or is it that we've altered the food substances themselves that even if you were eating the same thing that your, you know, ancestors ate long, long, long ago, that you'd still have a problem because of what we've done to the soil, genetic engineering, you know, all that stuff? I suspect it is part of both. In fact, even the people who go to Europe and eat the pizza in Italy, and they say come back and say, I have no problem with that, right? So, it is in that case, it's really how we produce wheat in our country versus we produce wheat there. It's much more organically produced wheat, right? The second part is our depending on if we're eating a lot of processed food, our gut microbes are actually no longer friendly to our environment. In that case, it is also, in addition to the food we eat, that's how it is grown, it is also our microbes have completely changed, are no longer able to digest the food they should have been able to do. Is it that they can't digest the food, or is it that the makeup of my microbiome, so you talked about Akkermansia, there's God knows how many thousands of different species. So, is it that I have the wrong makeup of the species, or is it that what I am feeding them is breaking them? Cuz I mean, you've talked about this, I can put a microbe in the ocean to eat oil. Yes. So, if there's a microbe to metabolize basically everything, is it really the problem with the the the actual bacteria, or is it that I've gotten the bad bacteria to over proliferate in my gut? You have to have the right set of oil. There's not like one single organism. There could be tens of thousands of different organism that can actually metabolize that food, right? So, one is part of having it. Other thing is the environment it finds itself in. So, if there are lots and lots of bad stuff and it's crowding out the good stuff, when the food comes in, they may not even get a shot at it, right? So, in a sense, the things that could have been digested if they were in a better balance is no longer. And another thing in this environment it is really interesting is not only we are feeding them, they are feeding each other, right? So, it is one set of organism can take the food actually poop out or metabolite that can be metabolized by some other organism and then it produces something else. So, in environment whether it is really good, I mean, it's actually not complicated. Look at Amazon forest, right? If you look at Amazon any type of rainforest, every step you take has a completely different makeup. Yet, the whole place is lush and green. That means you can have a nice lush and green environment. They don't have to be identical. They can be very different. Agree, but that's still it feels like given the second and third order consequences that this gets complicated really fast and given what I've been through at least I know how hard it has been at least historically to fix. Now, maybe we're getting more insight. So, what happened was What are you What are we using to get closer? Is it AI? Is it AI chomping through massive data? What's the big breakthrough? So, the big breakthrough is actually analyzing the body as a whole. So, let me just give me an example of what we did. Seven years ago, we simply analyzed your gut microbiome and trying to figure out what was Who is there? biome. Who is there and what they were doing, right? So, and what before us everybody including to date every other microbiome company focuses on who is there. Mhm. changed that and say we're going to focus on not just who is there, but what they are actually producing. What are they expressing? What are they metabolizing, right? And then we say, "Oh my god, let's look at what they're doing. Is it good or bad and can we use the food to say change that their behavior, right?" So, that was first part. And then we realize and say, "Wait a sec, that's only a small picture. We don't know when these things get absorbed in the blood, how does a human host is reacting to it?" So, 2 and 1/2 years ago we said, "Wait a sec, this is not going to give us everything we need. We're going to now analyze both your gut and a finger prick blood to know all of your inflammatory biomarkers." So, what do we do when you get a finger prick blood? We're looking at all the human host gene expression from your mitochondrial gene you referring inferring from that? The way that the body is responding? So, so walk me through. Can I have good metabolites but a bad reaction? So, what we are measuring is what is happening in your immune system. So, when we do a finger prick blood, the truth is at that point you have red blood cells and you have white blood cells, right? Red blood cells have no nucleus. You end up really analyzing the white blood cells. That means you're looking at all of the inflammatory markers, all the cytokines, right? You know, interleukin 1, interleukin And you're saying though that you can look at the metabolites and not be able to predict my reaction to those metabolites. So, what we do is we're looking at your meta you're looking at what your microbes are producing. Mhm. Now we're looking at all the inflammatory markers and are looking at all the mitochondrial gene expression, right? So, now we're looking at what mitochondria is producing, what your immune system is producing, right? What's in the blood? And then we're saying, "Wait a sec, this is what we see happening in the gut. This is what we see the human host responding to it. That's N of 1." And then we start to look at N of say 100,000. In our case, N of 500,000, right? Now, we have lots of data to see every time we see this, this is what's happening. On n of one, you cannot make that conclusion because they could be completely inconclusive. understanding this right, it makes the following prediction that eventually you'll have looked at a data set large enough that you'll be able to know from the metabolite Yes. how they'll respond, or would you need to know my DNA and the metabolite? No, so this is a matter This is not not we're looking at all of the immune system, how your immune system is reacting. Yeah, but what I'm trying to figure out is it will immune systems react to a metabolite in a predictable fashion? Yes. Okay, so you could then eventually get a data set so big Yeah, and that was the first So, this is what we did. Three months ago, we said we had a set. We are still missing the another part as we talked about, the top of the tube. So, we said, "Wait a second, what's happening here is also impacting the human host. So, why not analyze saliva to look at oral microbial activities and the human gene expression in your saliva. Look at both the gut microbial activity and the human gene expression from the from the epithelial cells shedding. And then look at the finger prick blood to understand all the human gene expression and take all this data together and can you start making more sense out of it than just one, two, or three samples, right? And now that we have analyzed so many samples, we're able to in fact predict and give you the score where you stand. For example, when you do this test of full body intelligence, we analyze your saliva, your stool, and a finger prick blood. And then we give you your biological age. The truth is hitting your career goals is not easy. You have to be willing to go the extra mile to stand out and do hard things better than anybody else. But, there are 10 steps I want to take you through that will 100x your efficiency so you can crush your goals and get back more time into your day. You'll not only get control of your time, you'll learn how to use that momentum to take on your next big goal. To help you do this, I've created a list of the 10 most impactful things that any high achiever needs to dominate. And you can download it for free by clicking the link in today's description. All right, my friend, back to today's episode. Before we add a confounding variable of Yeah. Yeah. of biological age, I want to make sure that I'm understanding what you guys are looking for well. So, we've got there there's an impossible amount of complexity here. Yes. So, are there really billions of species of bacteria? So, there are billions of species, but in terms of the number of pathways or number of metabolites are much more finite. Okay. So, the first really usable thing is what metabolite is being kicked off. So, I'm not worried so much about what bacteria you have, but I worry a lot about what metabolites are being produced. Okay, that's super helpful. All right, so now how many metabolites are we talking about? 10,000? 100,000? It's thousands. Okay, but not tens of thousands. of tens of thousands. Okay, so we've got thousands of metabolites that are being kicked off. Now, those thousands of metabolites will you've already answered yes to this, but I have a feeling that I'm not fully understanding what you're saying. Will those metabolites impact everybody's um epigenetic expression the same way? Or will those metabolites be good or bad based on my current epigenetic expression? Then you said genetic versus epigenetic. I want to be very sure. So, answer is yes because epigenetics is changing your expression. Yeah, that's why I want to stick to epigenetics. The actual expression in this moment. expression in this moment is what really matters. Your DNA, which is your original genes, not don't matter as much, right? And the reason I don't say don't matter as much is remember the same alphabet can produce lot of different things, right? In our body, every single part of our body from here to everything is produced by the identical DNA, right? But we can make an eye out of it, we can make a nail out of it, we can make a hair out of it, right? So let's focus what is epigenetics. Let me just define clearly. So your genes are there which I think more you and I, even though we look so different and you are 10 times as smarter than I am, we have the same almost 99.8% same DNA. What really matters is in terms of tiny difference, but how epigenetically the things are being expressed, right? So epigenetic means epi means over genetics, right? So in a sense in your genes you could have methylation, which slows down the expression of that particular gene, or acetylation that actually increases the expression of that gene. Just by changing the expression of certain genes and under expression of certain genes, the same DNA can produce my hair or it can become eyes, skin, lung, kidney, heart, whatever it is, right? Now, once it is expressed, it is called RNA. So you have DNA, then you have epigenetic, then you have RNA, right? So RNA tells you what is being expressed and we are analyzing your RNA, specifically mRNA and the non-coding RNA. Can I ask you a question about RNA and DNA? So I was looking this up. Yeah. I don't understand RNA well yet. So is the process, I know I'm over simplifying it, but if this is directionally correct that'll really help me understand. Yeah. So is RNA read, so you're reading the DNA and the reader is asking what is currently being expressed of these genes and then it creates cuz RNA looks exactly like DNA but half. So like it's been at least as it's shown on YouTube, it looks exactly like DNA but cut in half. And ACGU instead of ACGT. Yeah. So right. And what is really happening is it's controlled epigenetics. What is it? Because it is made it unzips the DNA. Yes, it looks at the codons. a top and a bottom. So you're looking at the codons, right? So you know, you look at codons. Codons like every three days start and and there's a codon, right? So that literally tells you take this stuff and express it, right? So depending on what control signals are there, which is methylation or acetylation, it says make more of these scripts or make less of these scripts, right? Make more and less or make don't make. Or make Well, it's make more or less. Really? Yeah. So it's still going to make some? Yep. Interesting. Yeah, so it's not like methylation doesn't stop completely. If you're highly methylated, it'll completely stop it, right? But a slight methylation will still produce. It's not like yes, no. It's not just on off. I thought it was on off. No, no. It's actually more like a dimmer. Okay. Right. Very interesting. And so having that dimmer is what allows you to have much more possibilities. Right? So that's the reason when you have methylation clock, it's not like, "Oh my god, is this on or off?" So the methylation clock allows you to see how much of it's on or how much of it's off. How much is dimmed and how much is not? Okay. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. So then I hate derailing us from because I still don't understand RNA. But So the Horvath clock Yes. which is checking methylation That's biological is checking the dimmer Yes. not on off. Yes. So are you looking for dimmer amount on certain genes? what they're doing. Or genes? So we look at every single So we're not even looking at the dimmer. We're looking at post dimmer what is being expressed. Right? So we don't need Well, I'm at about sorry, one step at a time. But, just the Horvath clock. When you use cuz you mentioned your biological age. Yeah. So, I'm going to come there in a second. Yeah. So, the way we measure biological age is very different. Than? Yeah. Than see the methylation clock, the Horvath clock. Really? Oh, you guys have a totally different method. Totally different. So, here's how we do it, right? Because they are we they looking at one single source of truth. Which is how much your human genes are methylated or not methylated. Just human genes. And they ignoring the 99% of the other stuff which is our whole microbiome. Yeah. Right? In your mouth, in your gut, everywhere. They completely ignoring it. Completely ignoring it now, right? So, what we do is very different. So, when we say this Tom is your biological age. Yep. What we do is we say, "Look, we have now collected 600 trillion nucleotides. 600 trillion nucleotides from over I really wish I knew what a nucleotide was. So, RNA basically ACGT base pairs. Yeah. So, each base pair is a nucleotide, right? So, once we have those base pairs, now we're saying is, "Okay, they're coming from these half a million people, half a million samples." Right? Now, we say, "Okay, everyone we know what their biomarker looks like." So, we create let's assume some type of a algorithm that says, "This is Tom's biomarker based on his saliva, blood, and stool." Mhm. And then now we have created the biomarkers for every single age. So, people who are 18 years old, 19 years old, 20 years old, 21. And now we have whole number of biomarkers for every single age. So, we snapshot Yeah. of what all the nucleotides look like if you're 63, if you're 50, That's right. if you're 47, 21. you come along Wow. and we say, "Oh, we just analyzed all your biomarkers. You look like just like this guy." Wow. Right? That's really interesting if nucleotides actually matter for anything. But, but point this? Convince me that they do cuz I know nothing about that. Also, basically think of them as RNA. So, look at them saying, "This is your all the genes that are expressed in your body." they're letter pairs. But, they're letter pairs. But, we're not looking just So, we're looking at actually Letter pairs of the RNA? RNA. Okay, so we're back to you're going to have to help my slow mind grasp Here's Let me try to explain it and then tell me where my understanding breaks. Go for it. You're going to be tempted to just go back to zero. no. Tell me where my understanding breaks. Go for it. You To create RNA, you begin with a strand of DNA. That's correct. Then there is a thing Yes. know what that thing is. Yes. There's a thing Yep. that cuts it. Yes. Literally separates like a zipper. Yep. Top and bottom of DNA. it actually. Just keep going. Sorry, say it again. It's reading it. Reading it, but it's separating them, yes? Well, it's sep- the separation part happens is called a fork. Yeah. So, it basically creates an RNA from a single strand. Creates two RNAs. Single strand. So, that's what we true? Yes. The top and the bottom. Well, it reads both ways. It reads Cuz if I Oh god, this is where I'm at the edge of my understanding. It's like uh what did they call it? Prime five and prime three. so they go both backwards. So, they go back this way and this way. Okay. Yes. Oh god, I only sort of understand this. But, it it is unzipping them. Yes, it's unzipping. I have the two RNAs. pairs But, they are separated. Yes. And now those are RNA. And no no. Yes? No no. So, they are actually just a single-stranded DNA still. Yep. Right. The RNA gets created when it starts reading it and you say, "All right, this is one. This is one." This What's this? you say, "This is beginning and end." one nucleotide? One not nucleotide. It would say one codon. One codon. And then you say, "Okay." And this basically starts saying, "Now this makes one protein or one metabolites." Right? So, literally you start producing amino acids. So, remember, every one of them produces So, every codon produces an amino acid. amino acids. Right? So, some number of codons will produce some So, when I'm gene when when I am making the RNA, whatever I am, I am reading the DNA, which is methylated, so I know what's active and not active, dimmer switch. Dimmer switch, yeah. How much of them do And so, when do I remove things because I'm like this codon is not active? So, this is no So, the only when it's reading now see this is too deep a science. So, I am not can imagine if you don't understand, fine. I'm perfectly happy to get to the edge of your understanding. I just is my Now, this is where the our chief science officer, Dr. Horvath, where he stepped in and gave me that thing. So, from my understanding, and I'm not a scientist here, is to say, "Okay, these set of codons will produce this amino acids." And now, we essentially are able to the way we do is we look at all the genes that are script So, your clock says this amino acid profile Or these looks like this for this age, looks like this for this age. amino acid. We're looking at all the But, you're looking at the things that create the amino acids. That's correct. And since the only thing that matters is what they create, by proxy By proxy. at least, we are looking at the amino acids. we're doing is really looking at the transcripts of everything. So, we're looking at every transcript. We call them mRNA transcripts, right? So, we're looking at all these But, transcription is just turning DNA into RNA. Transcripts with transcription is turning DNA into RNA, and what's turned is transcript. The transcripts, are they what grab the amino acids? They they are the ones who make the amino acids, yes. They make the amino acids. Okay. So, you So, this is where my understanding stops here. So, these are the transcripts we are reading. Then, we basically look at the network graph. If these transcripts are overexpressed, these transcripts are underexpressed, what metabolite is going to be produced based on these transcripts? what would Steve Horvath say why his method is better? What? You said that If you had to be super generous and steel man his argument. No, so I would simply say is look, there is no ground truth. So, in a sense, when someone says this is better or worse or same or not, is what are we comparing against? So, in a sense, like we all know what our chronological age is. Hopefully, we all do, right? The biological age is a concept we all can determine, but no one can say this is the ground truth. But the reason you think yours is better is it's more holistic. It's more holistic and it has lots more people. So, Horvath clock is based on thousands of people. This is based on hundreds of thousands of people. And I'm not even suggesting that when is it better? Better compared to what? Right? You can relatively how do you know who is accurate? There is no ground truth to saying Who lives longer? But That'll ultimately be like it's going to take time, I get it, but But let's assume even you say live longer, live longer than what? Somebody like if the Horvath clock says, "Ooh, you're 20 years younger." Take an actuarial table. So, you're supposed to live to 78, you live to 98. at a statistical average. So, it's again you back to the same me something. But if your Horvath clock tells me that I'm 20 years younger and then I live 20 years past the statistical age, I'm going to call that pretty good. No, but not really. I would say it would be What are you using then? If you think my logic is flawed, what do you use? So, you something the logic of all of us are saying is hey, we know are you relatively younger or older than your chronological I'm ultimately all I care about is if the Horvath clock tells me to eat more onions and you tell me to eat less onions, then I need to know who's right. Who's right? And the point What I'm trying to make is that from our perspective, we look at the stuff and say okay, let's assume you were supposed to live 105. Yeah. Right? And let's assume you're 20 years younger and you die at 95. Yeah. Have you lived your full life or you because your biological clock was wrong? Or you actually were supposed to only live to be 95. Right. So, point is just because you were 20 years younger but died at 95. But you could have lived to be 105. That means biological clock was wrong. And you're a really complex problem, but let's solve it. So, what you're thinking through just to say it in other words is we don't know what the human life expectancy is in general and forget the generalities, what is your max potential? We don't know that. know that. So, the Horvath clock or any biological clock is simply giving you how much under your biological age you are, but I have no idea how long you're going to And that's that is what I'm trying to say is it's basically statistically we are saying you're you are similar to the person who is of this age looking at very large population. And it doesn't mean From a functional standpoint. perspective. Okay. That's just what we're So, you perform like somebody of this age, but who the hell knows how long you're going to live. That's right. Do you think that's going to be a totally different clock? So, if Horvath and your clock Can we give your clock a name? Is it the Viome clock? It Well, my biological clock. All right. The Viome bio- biological clock. Um if that is telling us performance Yes. Do you think there will be a totally different clock that's going to tell us uh average human expectancy times X. So, 1.1, 1.2. Like cuz that's the clock I care about. That's and And the point we have is today different companies are looking at very different things. So, for example, there is the inflammation clock. Hm. Right? So, the people say, "Hey, all it matters to you how well your immune system is acting because that's what determines how old you are." So, meaning the clock seems like a weird choice of words there. Gauge? Well, they call that inflammation inflammation clock. you agree that's a weird weird name, but it's basically score inflammation. or is it a gauge? It's a score. Right. Call it it's a gauge, it's a score. So, your inflammation is score in their mind is the only thing that matters, because that determines how long you're going to live. Because end of the day, if your body is highly inflamed, it's to some extent inflammation, chronic inflammation is bad. Right. No doubt about it. But that's not alone. Some people say the only thing that matters your cognitive health. So, if I can figure out your cognitive health is score, that's your biological clock. Yeah. Some people say, "Well, it's your heart health. If I can figure out how well your heart is working, that's your biological clock." Some people say, "Well, what matters is how well you breathe. So, I'm going to look at your lung clock and tell you if that is what it is, that's how I'm going to tell you how old you're going to get." And it probably will break out to those things. If your brain health isn't there, do you really care? If your heart gives out, do you care that you have better lungs passing? the reason the most set But this stuff directionally is very interesting. Now, And that's the reason by the way we look at at least today, your saliva, your stool, your blood, and looking at those three samples rather than just one sample, trying to get as close to the holistic bio age as possible. Well, let's abstract it back out. What is your What's the thing that you, Naveen Jain, really care about? Is I care about function and duration. Well, so I care about not just one thing. So, what we do is we say, "Okay, you do this test, I'm going to give you your biological age, that's one signal, not the only signal. We give you your immune health score. So, now we're saying, "Hey, look at your immune health is doing good, but not as good. There's more room to improve." What do you guys look at on that? Uh immune is because looking at Over-reaction, under-reaction. actually looking at all of your cytokines, right? So, remember the immune system is consists of all these interleukins, all these cytokines. So, we're looking at the things that are anti-inflammatory, how are they being expressed? The things that are over-inflammatory, how are they being in uh expressed? So, the more inflammatory signal we are getting, that means higher the inflammation it is in your body, right? So, we're looking at all of that stuff. Then we look at things like your heart health. You guys are looking at information already? Mhm, yeah. So, it's called immune health score. In the blood? In the blood. What do you actually count? We're talking the all the interleukins and transcripts. How many of them there are? Is it just how many? I just don't know. That's interesting. I'd like to know that. we are looking at tons of this. We know we get about 10,000 different types of scripts in the blood. Right? So, we're looking at all those scripts. And then we are also that scripts, what do you mean? Transcripts, the RNAs, all right? And now we are looking at your, for example, cognitive health score. So, that's separate score. It's called brain and cognitive health score. You do that off the blood or do you have people take a test? blood, and saliva. But those three tell you cognitive performance? we're looking at approximation as much as we get by looking at your GABA production, your serotonin production. So, we're looking at all the things that we know today affect your cognitive performance, right? So, it's a proxy for a cognitive health to say, "What is your vitamin D level? What's your GABA production? What's your serotonin production?" And we say, "Or here are 10 other things that improve or decline your cognitive performance." We're looking at a proxy of those. Mhm. Right? Similarly, we are looking at the things on the heart health. What are the things that signal whether your heart health is good or bad? So, we are looking at the things that would cause the heart health to be poor, such as your LDL production, right? So, we're looking at all the different things that would produce the thing that would in proxy define your heart health, right? Similarly, we're looking at the things that would define your gut health. So, we are now looking at the things that different parts of your body, and these are all different signals including your biological age. But we're saying is look, this is our approximation of where you are relative to all the people we have analyzed. So you really maybe 63, for example, me, but I'm biologically fall as if I'm 50. That means my biomarkers match with other people who are 50. And that changes. So if I do a test a year from now, and if I'm not really taking care of my health, that may move up to 55. How far do you think you can push that? Can you be 95 and perform like you're 50? Yeah, you know, time will tell. We have seen people who are 20, 25 years younger in their biological age and chronological age, right? Do you know who Bryan Johnson is? I know of him, yes. He's coming back on the show, I think. So he claims, God, I don't want to put words in his mouth, that he's got the biggest gap between or no, sorry, the biggest reversal of age in the shortest amount of time. I think that's accurate. If you don't know what he measured himself against, in that point is again, you know, in some sense, there is really no good I mean, there's no ground truth. I mean, how do you measure you're proud of the fact that you're 63 and measure out of 50. based on our measures, right? And what I'm saying is that I my biomarkers are similar to other people who are age 50, whatever that means. Well, let's say that that's the gold standard. If that was the gold standard, that means my physical performance and mental performance is similar to the people who are 50 years old. But doesn't mean I'm 50 years old. I'm still 63. Yeah, what I'm trying to figure that I get, but it assuming that you kept those bio I I what I want to know very succinctly, do you think, and I know you're guessing, do you think that we can hold our biomarkers static even as our physical age In fact, you can I can I have seen it in the last two and a half, three years we've been measuring the biological age. I've done last six tests. And then when I know when I actually go off off the script eating the stuff that I shouldn't be eating and I literally go on a vacation eating all kinds of junk and when I do a test, my biological age moved up. Wow. How fast can you move it up and down? I I I have not tested I mean four to six months even I test and I've seen that a quite a bit difference like five seven year difference. Woah. Yeah. Is this like um A1C where I can check like the your last few months you have on average been a 55 year old? Yes, so if I look at my biological age or look By the way, so we show you the longitudinal data of as you test. So I can see here is my gut health. Here is what happened and as I'm doing this, I've done like 10 or 12 tests. Where am I going? So is it getting better? Is it getting worse? So every single thing you can start to measure for yourself because you know the ground truth. Have you behaving yourself or you're not? We don't know that, right? Okay, this is really interesting. So I check my glucose. I I wear I don't know maybe four months out of the year I wear a continuous glucose monitor. Amazing. I love doing it. the way, we built that into the system already as AI. Tell me more. So what we did is we actually put a CGM partnered with somebody or you guys make your own? So what we did actually we don't have to partner anymore. How do you get the glucose data? So we basically built the AI model. So what we did is we took 11 I'm just Wait for a second. 1,100 people put a continuous glucose monitor Uh-huh. fed them 70,000 different types of food and then looked at the microbial activity Yeah. and said if we see this being produced by microbes because we know that's going to change the glucose response, can we build a AI that will predict which is what your continuous glucose monitor is showing, can we predict by looking at the gut microbial activity? And we published that paper with 87% accuracy. Over what period of time? The glucose changes so rapidly. No, it No, it's it's only changes from what food you eat. It's not unpredictable. So, if let's say my glucose will fluctuate by 70 points within an hour. Oh, no, no, but for Say for the same food. Yes. What do you mean 70? No, no, no, no. Let's say I eat a bowl of ice cream. It's going to spike hard and then 2 hours later it's back to normal. So, we're looking at a postprandial exactly what it spikes to me. And now you eat ice cream again tomorrow. Yeah. Would it spike the same or would it be different? Definitely not the same. same if you had no other food, just that. Correct. That. Come on. You know You know better than that. So, what we do is actually the difference in the intrinsically is about 13% or so. I don't know what you mean by that. So, here's here's what I'm saying. If I exercise my ass off and then eat ice cream, it'll be very different than if I don't exercise and I eat ice cream. Huge difference. If I don't sleep well, So, if I sleep well, exercise, eat ice cream, very different than don't sleep well, don't exercise, eat ice cream. completely agree with you. So, what So, how are you telling some in the metabolites of my Oh, no, so what we are doing is we are saying is hey, we took 1,100 people, right? And we say keep doing what you're doing. So, don't go out and change your behavior. Yeah, but people are messes. No, but point is and we bought the food for them. So, we didn't see that hey, go eat what you're eating. You say here is a food for you to eat, right? Don't change your habits. So, don't go work out 4 hours today and then tomorrow you don't, right? Right. So, we were trying to essentially normalize the stuff, right? I get it. So, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are trying to what we were able to do was now we can predict based on your gut microbial activity. I'm going to come back to the oral side in a second, yeah. Based on that, we were able to predict that when you eat carrot, you're going to have higher glucose response versus say for banana or for example or others to come up with a like a glucose response per food? per food Okay. Yes. Not on any individual what you actually have that day. for each individual Okay, so it's it's n of 1. n of 1 Okay, so I have to run through the same battery of foods No. No, no, so what we do is now that we built the model Mhm. we can see based on now that we so we don't want to reverse. So we see this is what's happening in your gut microbial activity. If you were to eat carrot, we know what is going to do. Right? So we know this machine. what to do. Okay. What I what metabolites I kick off? What metabolites you kick off? So we know this is your code. But you don't know how my body is going to respond because there's so many variables. So let's So here's what we saying. Those variables change what you metabolize, what your microbial activities are. So you know when you exercise a lot, your microbial activity changes. Yep. So we have now seen that when people exercise their gut microbial activity changes. Mhm. Right? So we know now based on the gut microbial activity, think of this your code that's a self-modifiable code. If we know what this code is going to do we can say this input happens, what the output will be. Okay. Right? So we know this is we can analyze this. This is constant whether it's a carrot or almonds or So let me see if I understand this correctly. If I give you my microbial output, you can tell me a banana is going to affect you this way. This way. Very interesting. Right. Now, where do you guys see that going? So what happens now? So here is So now we are able to predict to say, "Hey, don't eat banana, but it's okay for you to eat almonds. Or don't eat almonds which are going to cause more spike than you normal Normally, people say almonds should not be high glycemic response. We can say, "For you, Tom, almonds are really high glucose response. Don't eat almonds, but you can eat banana." Okay, so having listened to as many interviews with you as I have, I know that your that this stuff changes very rapidly. And that one day you're predicting that the toilet will just give you this information. So, you will make a deposit, and then the toilet's going to be like, "Hey, eat almonds today uh after 3:00 p.m., but make sure that you do your normal 75 push-ups." Uh Well, but we don't really So, in a sense, as long as we know what they are expressing because all these things you do, whether it's exercise or sleep, all of those are changing that what you're expressing. So, the reason you feel bad or feel good is something is being expressed differently. How rapidly does it change? Glucose is by the minute almost. So, glucose is not by the minute. If you No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, let's assume You don't agree with that? No, so in a I'm just for not for the same food if you don't change anything else, like Understood. So, my point is let's So, no, no. So, let's assume you don't eat you today, right now. If you say, "Okay, I have not I eat the same oatmeal 4 hours later, and I have not done any workout. Or I have I normally do 30 minutes of workout Yeah, all variables held steady, including metabolite production. Metabolite production we can measure. So, you don't need So, we say, "Hey, you work out." We know what they what they are doing because that's the code we can analyze. Right? Now, once we know what they're going to do, we see if this input you give us, we can tell you what the output is going to be. Right? And that is our glycemic response model. What we did very recently is we said, "Hey, can we how much of information can we just get from one input like saliva?" Because we were thinking that this requires you to do three things. A spit in a tube, touch of a stool, and a finger prick of your blood. And we're thinking, "Can we get 60, 70% of the information just with your saliva?" So, we said, "Okay, now that we have 100,000 people that have given us all three samples." Right? And now we are able to actually understand what is the ground truth based on all three things. Can we now build the AI model to predict what is going to happen for the glucose response just from saliva, even though there is no research ever done. So, we said, "We know from a stool to glucose response. Can we build a model from saliva to stool in proxy for this glucose response?" And we did that. Amazing. Right. How how close is that? How accurate 84%. Wow, just from my saliva. So, from my saliva, would you be able to tell me, "Hey, today, based on your saliva, bananas are going to have this response"? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And 84% 84%. It's amazing. Yes. Uh what what do you think what's the error on? Is it like a wild miss or is it like As you mentioned, each person there is a variant in person, even if you forget the other people. So, just you alone, there is going to be 15, 16% variation just inside you. That's it? Yes. For the same food with the all the variable being the same. So, is your prediction, and I get that this is a complete guess, I just want to make sure I'm tracking your logic. Is your prediction that uh at 16 Yeah. I eat this thing and it has this response regardless of what I'm exercising, doing, all of that. 16 years old. At 47 years old, I eat the same thing. I'm going to be within 16-ish percent. no. You because you No, because your activities are completely changed now. So, if you Remember you as you are aging and your whole lifestyle, the place you go to, the people you meet, how much of time you're spending in the nature, how much of the things, you know, other things, environmental need the real-time response to get me within 84%. That's right. That means you need to be able to do a test so we can analyze what your microbial activities are, which are different from when you were 16 and versus you're 47. Yeah, so maybe I asked the question poorly, but that says to me is that the 84% represents the difference between what's actually happening and what you can guess from the saliva. That's correct. So, okay, so you're making these inferences, but it's a reasonably good approximation. ish here that we just have no idea. We can't tell because know why it's causing that because we believe that at least in our belief, the human body itself has that variability for other factors that we don't know what they are yet. Still incredibly interesting. How do you think that with a big enough data set that you can crush that gap down? It will continue to get closer and closer. To get to 100% we need to be able to write the human body. That means we know exactly what's happening and we can create a human body because we know everything that happens in the human body. And when we get to that point, we start to play God, right? Yeah, well, that's interesting. Play God for a second. So, where What are the gaps? What would we need to understand? The truth, Tom, is we don't know what we don't know yet. We don't know It's not like we're saying, "Hey, we know these things. We just need to do them now." We don't even know what we don't know. It is human body so complex. Every single day we're learning something new and we say, "Wow, we didn't know that." Like for example, NAD, how many times people have said, "You want to live long, take NAD or NR or NMN." Research came out last month that says NAD and NR actually causes onset and a progression of cancer. Metastasize a cancer. Only in some people or in everyone? Uh in some people. Right? And now, we need to understand what is it that's going on that's causing that. We don't know that. This is why I'm so paranoid about supplements. Right. So, honestly God, that's the reason I tell people don't put anything in your body unless you have it analyzed it, right? So, what we do is slightly different. Again, I'm not suggesting that we got 100% of it right. So, what we do is we say, "Hey, having analyzed your saliva, having analyzed your blood, having analyzed your stool, we don't think you should be taking vitamin B3 because your uric acid production is too high and we know this niacin vitamin B3 is going to create more uric acid and it's going to end up turning into gout. Or your bile acid production is very high right now. If you take curcumin, which everyone tells you is really healthy, is going to actually increase more bile acid, convert into more bile bile salt, is going to cause more inflammation, not less inflammation. But you do need We see this pathway is not very active for you. You do need about 22 mg of CoQ10. You need 70 mg of lycopene. You need about 50 mg of blue the blueberry extract, right? And so, we literally go through all the food extract, vitamins, minerals, herbs, digestive enzymes, peptides, probiotics, and prebiotics. And literally say, "You need 22 mg of this, 18 mg of this, 79 mg of that." And we literally say, "This is for Tom." We build the whole robotic machine now that literally say, "This compound This is being produced for Tom. Here are the things you need. Go to bin number three, get 22 mg. Go to bin number 22, get 18 mg. Go to bin number 27, get a 95 mg. Create the powder. Shake it up. Put them in a capsule and send them off to you. And that's literally what it is. Every single month we make it custom make it for you. Right? Same thing here. Based on my updated test. Based on your updated test, right? Now, and we test every, you know, 6 months, 4 to 6 months, it gets updated as things are changing. Our goal updated? Your supplements, what you need or what you don't need, right? So, call they stay good for 4 to 6 months? Well, What would be ideal? Would I test every day? If I 2 to 4 months. You don't body doesn't adapt that quickly. So, 3 to 4 months will be absolute I mean, if you want to be an absolute optimal, 3 to 4 months. But, 6 months is good. I mean, you know, it's not like they expire somehow that your body is completely different now, you're expired, right? Interesting. That's the one thing that and I don't know enough, so I could be totally wrong, but it feels like the body changes a lot faster. Like, if you track the microbiome, you can see from day to day that there's pretty big swings. So, here is what we saw. We actually have a published peer-reviewed paper. We took people to say again, this is a caveat. We told them not to change the way you live. And we say, "Keep eating whatever you normally would be eating." And every month, just the way you what you had been doing. And we analyze their poop every single day for 30 days. And then we actually put them things together and we say, "We know exactly which poop come from who." That means it didn't change significantly Yeah, if you tell people not to change, I don't know how much that affects it, but have you looked at what the relationship is for people 4 to 6 months on? Like, what percentage is the average person 96% the same So, every 6 months or is there massive variation? If you change, so let's assume we say, "Hey, here are the foods that are really bad for you. Don't eat them." And here are the foods that are superfoods for you. Eat these and we tell you why. So, we say, "Here are the foods you really need to eat and here is why. Don't eat these foods and here is why for you, not for someone else, for you what's happening." If you follow all that What is up, my friend? Tom Bilyeu here and I have a big question to ask you. How would you rate your level of personal discipline on a scale of 1 to 10? If your answer is anything less than a 10, I've got something cool for you. And let me tell you right now, discipline, by its very nature, means compelling yourself to do difficult things that are stressful, boring, which is what kills most people, or possibly scary or even painful. Now, here is the thing. Achieving huge goals and stretching to reach your potential requires you to do those challenging, stressful things and to stick with them even when it gets boring and it will get boring. Building your levels of personal discipline is not easy, but let me tell you it pays off. In fact, I will tell you, you're never going to achieve anything meaningful unless you develop discipline. All right, I've just released a class from Impact Theory University called How to Build Ironclad Discipline that teaches you the process of building yourself up in this area so that you can push yourself to do the hard things that greatness is going to require of you. All right, click the link on the screen, register for this class right now and let's get to work. I will see you inside this workshop from Impact Theory University. Until then, my friends, be legendary. Peace out. What happens is now suddenly the input is changing. This activity changes. So, doesn't mean your microbiome is changing, your microbial functions are changing because now you're giving them a different things to metabolize. Right? So, that change, so your functional activity is changing and we have seen that people who change their microbial activity change quite a bit. If you don't change anything, so let's assume we tell you to do this and take this supplement this probiotic is it not going to do it. And you go back and analyze 6 months later. And if you more or less stay the same, you probably your activities will be more or less the same. If you started working out, they probably will be different. If you start spending more time in nature, it will be different. So if you start Yeah, of course. Because remember, every time you are in nature, you are inhaling, you're constantly being bombarded by the microbiome, right? When you go past the cow dung, you smell bad. What is that? You're suddenly inhaling all that stuff, right? So that's how your aromatic sensors see Oh, that smells like [ __ ] Will that make its way to the actual gut? Well, it starts to make it to your body, right? And then when you're smelling through your mouth, it's starting to go the microbes are constantly By the way, each you when you and I are probably breathing billions of microbes every time just when you're breathing in and out. That's so crazy. Right? So if you could have a microscope here, you'll be seeing I don't I don't think I want that, yeah. But you get my point. But every food you eat is full of microbes, right? Whether you eat animal food or you eat the plant food, you literally are essentially getting whole bunch of microbes. What's your take on meat eating versus non-meat eating plants? Uh so again, when people have this fundamental idea that if you are vegan or plant food, you are healthy. Without realizing almost all the poison actually do does come from plant. So just because you eat plant food doesn't mean you're actually eating animal. Poison that humans have put on it or the actual plant protective mechanism? I mean look at poison ivy, right? I mean a whole bunch of poison actually comes A lot of the drugs come from plants. Right? So the point is just because you think it's plant, it doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you. And again, idea is But if I were going to eat the optimal plants versus the optimal meats, Yeah, so I would say it depends on again. So here's what happens. Meet the red Let's start with red meat because everyone thinks it's bad. And you and I probably know lots of people who ate red meat and potatoes and lived to be 100 years old. And lived healthy, right? What is it? So, the meat red meat contains choline and carnitine. When it goes into your gut, your microbes change that into something called TMA, trimethylamine. And that gets absorbed into the blood and your liver turns them into TMAO, trimethylamine oxide, which is what causes the uh you know, heart disease or plaque in the arteries. So, if your TMA score is low, you can eat red meat because it's not going to impact much. Whereas, if your TMA is high, you know if you eat more red meat, you're going to produce a lot of TMA, which is going to produce more trimethylamine oxide, that's going to cause more heart disease for you. Is that at an epigenetic level or is there a genetic marker that you can look for? is microbial marker. Remember, so this is what microbes produce that take the meat and produce TMA. Interesting. So, depending on how I have cultivated my microbiome, I either can or can't eat meat. Or can eat lot or little. Interesting. So, do we know what the magic cocktail Like I like red meat the most. So, what cocktail of microbiota do I need to be able to eat all the red meat I want? tell you that if we were to analyze today, we can tell you what your TMA production looks like. Yeah, but you should also be able to tell me what I can eat to migrate my microbiome to one that's friendly. Yeah, so that's actually a really really good question. Can you actually precisely adjust to say, I want to eat this food, can you make your make my microbiome compatible with this food? So, theoretically, the answer is yes. The practically, we don't know yet. Mhm. Right? But theoretically there is no doubt What's going to be the solve for that? Is it AI? It is AI and the data and under Well, it's more than nature of this ecosystem. It is so complex Mhm. that when we change one thing, we believe that's the only thing we are changing. can't you really just look at the data on this one? This feels like if I if I give you a large enough data set and I think you're over the next 5 years I mean people I think people are going to keep pouring into this. So let's say you have 500,000 now. Let's say that you have 500 million in 5 years. It's absolutely guessable. So if we have 500 million data points, could we not start going okay people with this snapshot of their microbiome, they have less heart disease, whatever? Yep. If we that we absolutely can. When you have that large a data set, you can solve very very complex problem, right? And today we are seeing we're getting closer and closer, but we are nowhere near understanding the human body complexity and just requires lot more data. Yeah, but couldn't we get away with just correlation on this? You can except that the problem is if you have let's assume 10,000 species capable of producing uh hundreds of millions of types of potential interaction. Remember, if every microbe has say thousand genes it can express, at any point it's only expressing a hundred of them. Right? So think that there is a microbiome type? Like are we going to with enough data will we get a snapshot that says there's 52 types of microbiome. There's like of course like the nitty-gritty is wildly different. But like for instance, because I play in the world of NFTs you create these collections of 10,000. But the 10,000 like they still it's pretty easy to tell one collection from another. So wouldn't it be I I'm going to hypothesize Yep. that with enough data, what we're going to realize is there's some finite number that is not crazy. Let's call it 52 for cuz I think that's probably going to be relatively close. Right. And you say, "Okay, these the people that live to 120, they all have uh this pattern, not just the microbiome, but like the three snapshots or whatever. They all look like this pattern. And if you eat roughly these 416 things and exercise in this amount or whatever, then you're going to get that pattern." And now we can check it and see, "Yep, your your markers all line up with the people who lived to 120." we see is really interesting is even the people who are healthy, right? Just like that we talked example of the rainforest, right? So, you can have two people who are healthy can have completely different set of organism because they're all producing similar types of things that keep us healthy. So, you say organisms, what do you mean? Cuz metabolites are all we care about. So, see when you see these microbiome microbiome is not metabolites. Microbiome is the organisms, right? But do we care about the organisms? That's my point. So, when you mention you say, "Can we come up with a set of you know, these microbiome?" And I'm saying it's microbiome functions. Yes. So, can we come up with the microbiome functions that they are performing? And can we come up with some some subset of them, whether it's 52 or you know, 500, some smaller numbers, finite numbers, and we see if the people who lived to be healthy 95. By the way, there is a study done there. So, they took the people who were in 90s and they were healthy versus people who were 90s and not healthy. Mhm. What they found was the people who were in 90s and healthy, their gut microbial activities are very similar to the people who were 30 or 40. Mhm. Right? So, Wow. Yes. So, that means they maintained the microbial activity to be healthy and that's why they tend to live longer. And that's just only one function they analyzed. Now, obviously they didn't in this particular study, they didn't look at the stuff and say, "What is their immune system doing? What is their oral microbe doing?" Right? But in this thing they did look at the gut microbiome and showed that people who live healthy to be in 90s had a microbiome to be much younger person, the activities. Okay, so there's a lot that we can learn from these snapshots. Talk to me about what you guys are learning about through, I assume, data sets, AI, that you're able to start making predictions around cancer. I know you guys are going to be releasing or have released being able to spit into the tube. What's the relationship? At this point, is it just a data relationship? We know that people with this oral microbiome tend to have this kind of cancer or is there actually something that's going on? So here is what we did and then I can explain what happened. Right? So this is what we did. We said, "Hey, people who have stage one cancer in the mouth or in their throat, their human genes are expressed like this and microbial genes are expressed like this. And then we took enough data to say, "Hey, I think we can now predict if you have a cancer not, potential to have a cancer. You actually have a stage one cancer, stage two cancer, stage three cancer." And then we say, "Okay, if this is the model, can we look at completely unseen samples, run this model against them?" So we say, "All right, we're going to take 120 samples. Don't tell us which one of these samples have cancer or which ones don't. We're going to run our AI model and we're going to say, 'Here are the samples we found to have cancer or stage one cancer, stage two cancer, stage three cancer and we found these samples not to have a cancer.'" And when we did that, what we showed was we were able to be specificity of 95%. Ah, damn. Right? We can say this were right. So, that means 95 out of 100 we say these people have a cancer. And 90% sensitivity when we say these people did not, there was a 10% chance they could have had it. Right? So, we were able to now take that data, went to FDA. FDA gave us a breakthrough device designation. did that take you guys? So, that's about a year. And the breakthrough device designation has two meanings under the FD. Nothing like this exist. That's why it's a breakthrough. If some test like this exist, they would say just go through the regular approval. Right. And this thing what you're doing would save people's lives. Right? So, they said this thing is a complete breakthrough. So, today You can market this as cancer detection? We do it right now. So, you can go to our website. It's called cancer detect biggest line of business? This is the recently launched test which we think could be a This is the beginning, by the way. So, we started with the thing you spit in a tube. Are you marketing this? Yes. Right? What's What's the response? Like, this is so insane. I'm like, am I understanding this correctly? So, people that have cancer, you can detect 95% accuracy. People that don't have cancer, you're 90% accurate. Cancer in the mouth and the throat. Just that's all so far. Just want to be very clear. That's amazing. But, we are now going down the tube. We are now looking at the esophageal cancer, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, pancreatic cancer. [ __ ] dude. Lung cancer, liver cancer. And then we're looking at other diseases, Tom. IBD. Today IBD? Which is intestinal bowel disease inflammatory bowel disease, I'm sorry. Inflammatory bowel disease. So, people are Crohn or colitis. People have them and they pain, they don't know what is going on. We are able to now build a model that we're going to be launching in the next 3 to 4 months to be able to predict with an almost 97, 98% efficiency that you have a Crohn's or colitis or you don't have IBD. Wow. Right. And Where are you guys at on the Can you speak to where you're at on the cancer on those? I know you're not approved yet, but those two this cancer in the mouth and throat is already launched as a laboratory developed test. Like colorectal seems the most important. cancer to me is coming. We have in fact the data being collected. What is more interesting is not colorectal cancer actually. To me, what would be the real game changer would be colon polyps. Hm. Because colon polyps Just that you have them? 8 to 10 years before they become cancerous. Hm. Right? So, if we can predict you have colon polyps, then we can say go to the colon get the colonoscopy and get them removed. Because they'll never have a cancer then. So, to us the breakthrough is going to be to detect colon polyps. And we literally are collecting all the data. So, when you go to colonoscopy, we get your samples, saliva, blood, stool. And then we get the physician report. Did you have colon polyps? Did you have a colon cancer? What is it? Are you spending most of your time on the medical side of this or the AI side? So, similar both. You personally? So, I spend most of my time trying to find these breakthroughs. But remember, none of that can happen until you have this massive amount of data. So, what happens is our business, which is our wellness business, allows you to stay healthy. In turn, we get all of this data. People who have depression, what their biomarkers look like. People who have anxiety, what is their biomarker look like. Yeah, so what I'm trying to figure out from your when you as I'm listening to you say this, I'm like, please stop focusing on the medical stuff. Just collect as much data as you can. But your team focusing on the medical stuff. But figuring out the AI component of this feels like the huge breakthrough. This is crazy that you can detect cancer in saliva. Yes. And in fact, not only that, we are able to see that how the human gene expression changing when microbes expressions are changing because that's what causes the cancer. So, in fact, what is really interesting Tom and Marshall we talked about last time or not, they are able to now look at all the solid tumors and every single tumor they looked at, there is a unique microbiome inside the tumor of at the cat every cancer. That you think will show up in the blood? That will show up in the blood. Right. So, imagine what is that the interesting question is, what is that microbiome doing inside the tumor? Mhm. Right. And one of the interesting thing is at least the research is showing that these tumor are displaying these microbial peptides on top of the surface of the tumor. And it occurs to me why would a organism like cancer who wants to survive want to display to the immune system come and kill me unless these microbial peptides are declaring themselves as self, protecting the tumor against the immune system and saying, "Hey, we are all good here. We are all friends here. Don't worry about us." So, wait, how does that work? Why why did you first think that it would be a signal to come kill me? Because anytime there is a foreign agent Mhm. on anything something foreign, immune system wants to attack that foreign thing. Yeah. So, why would a tumor display a microbe that's supposed to be foreign putting up on the surface, inviting the immune system to attack it unless they believe that substance is telling the immune system that we are part of you, part of self. So, do you think they're misunderstanding that? Well, microbes are essentially part Some of these microbes are part of our self. That's the reason the immune system doesn't attack them. Mhm. And some of these microbes have now learned, which is by the way which is autoimmune disease, when your microbes are starting to produce the amino acid that may match with your say, for example, your protein in your joint, guess what happened? Immune system thinks it's attacking the microbial metabolite, ends up attacking your own joint, and that's an autoimmune disease now. I Because there's no reason for immune system to attack our own body. Yeah, I'm missing something on the cancer. Take us back to the 101. So, cancer displays things on the surface of the cells. are seeing. So, we don't know the mechanism. I'm just saying that this is my hypothesis at this does it put on the cell? So, it is producing the stuff from the microbiome. This microbiome is producing or the shell cell of the microbiome that it is on the surface of the tumor. That's what we see right now. And your question is, okay, cancer, you're you're putting something on the surface of your cell that the immune system is going to recognize as foreign and it's going to come it's not recognizing as foreign. It's recognizing as self, so it's not attacking the tumor. Is that your hypothesis or what do you know? That's it. My hypothesis. And that's the reason the immune system is not killing the tumor. And so, reason must be that it's got to be something that immune There's something about displaying the microbiome on the surface of this cell. Or some other So, it says all is well. Yeah, all is well. Otherwise, the immune system should be killing that cancer. Okay, so let me restate your hypothesis to make sure I understand it correctly. Yeah. The immune system is very used to seeing microbes. Yeah. Because that's we've co-evolved from mitochondria to what's in your mouth, what's in your gut, all of that. But in the blood, it's a different story. Anyway, let me finish your hypothesis. So, the body is very used to seeing that. The cancer cell is putting it on the surface of its cells. You think it's doing that as a way to say, "Hey, we're just another microbe. All is well." But the body also kills the [ __ ] out of microbes. If they find If the particular microbe pathogens, it makes Yeah, so how what is it about the microbiome on a cancer cell that looks like So, what we So, there is a reason why our immune system is not attacking our microbes in our gut. What is it that it's doing because at least our understanding of the way immune system works is when the baby is born, the microbiome in the gut it starts to actually create I forget the gland. What is the gland that produces the T cells and B cells? Mhm. Uh it start to actually locate translocate to the things. So, it says, "Hey, now we understand who you are and we're not going to produce the antibodies against you so that macrophages can attack you." Mhm. Right? So, it starts to say, "Okay, we understand this is no different than our human tissue." Right? And once it gets trained, then that's the reason even though 70% of our immune system is along our gut lining, it's not attacking our gut constantly. Mhm. Right? And we don't know a lot of these mechanisms. I wish I could tell you, "Hey, we know exactly what is causing cancer. We know exactly how to solve it." The answer is we don't. I'm just telling you what is our current understanding, what is my hypothesis. Again, hypothesis doesn't mean the fact. It needs to be validated. So, scientifically all that means is we believe something that may scientifically turn out to be right or wrong. And then if it is right, then it becomes a theory. If it is wrong, it goes out the window. Right? So, currently the hypothesis is not even a theory. Yeah. Okay, very interesting. So, By the way, that's why it's called impact theory or you know, health theory. The theory means when you start to make a hypothesis and then you prove it that hypothesis is true, then it becomes a theory. That it seems true so far. Yes. How about that? That's true so far. Exactly. Yes. Okay, so going back to cancer, I know your dad died of cancer and that's a big reason why you started doing this. Um one, so your dad died of pancreatic cancer. You were just saying that you think that you'll be able to detect pancreatic cancer? How? Also, it's actually very interesting. The research clearly shows at least there was a NYU professor who showed that pancreatic cancer is caused by a gut microbiome going through the bile duct look re-translocating into pancreas and actually turning making the tumor or at least helping the tumor grow. And this particular professor injected the antibiotics directly into the tumor in the mice. Mhm. And that killed the microbes and immune system killed the cancer. Something happens in magically when they put the antibiotics. What did it do other than killing the bacteria that caused the immune system to kill the tumor? That means that's where the hypothesis comes. Were these microbes protecting the tumor because immune system wasn't attacking until they killed the microbes? I think we have to talk about phages now. Yeah. So, describe to people what phages are Mhm. cuz there's a very interesting relationship between phages and bacteria. Absolutely correct. So, let us define the microbiome for a second then I'm going to come back to the phages. So, microbiome most people think it's just about bacteria. Microbiome is micro means small, biome means life, the organism, right? So, the life is small life. They can be bacteria, they can be viruses and viruses can be by the way normal viruses or RNA viruses which are basically don't have any DNA. They're just RNA viruses. So, they can't be detected any other way unless you analyze RNA, right? And then there are viruses that are called phages and then there are obviously the fungi and part of the fungi is mold, right? So, that's basically and phages synonyms, Same thing? So, phages are a type of viruses that only infect bacteria. Okay. Right? So, the the phages are in nature, there 10 times more phages than bacteria. Right? And every spoon of soil you take, there are trillions of these organisms. Right? These deadly viruses that kill like 95% of all life on Earth, which I didn't realize until I started researching this. actually impact only infect bacteria and change the function of the bacteria. So, they can only kill bacteria, which is why they don't kill humans. See, that's I think They don't kill bacteria? infect the bacteria and change the function. Remember, now they've injected their genetics inside the bacteria. Right? And they But doesn't the bacteria just replicate the phages? So, it replicates And then ultimately it bursts the bacteria. is it's not just creating phages, it's creating the bacterial functions it's changing, and it becomes symbiosis sometimes. So, if you also know, at least in from what we have seen, the phages change the behavior of the bacteria in terms of the functions they provide. That's all I can tell you with certainty. Right. Okay, so phages So, here was why I was bringing this up now. One of the things that I came across, and again, I'm at the very early stages of really understanding phages and bacteria, but one of the things that I came across was that you have this really interesting inverse relationship between antibiotics and phages. So, because phages and antibio- or sorry, phages and bacteria are in this constant evolutionary arms race, where the bacteria is evolving to avoid death by phage, phages are evolving to make sure that they can take over the bacteria. In this arms race, the phage can only work against either Sorry, the bacteria can only battle off the phage or the antibiotics, but not both. So, it has to choose an evolutionary path of protect myself from the phage or protect myself from the antibiotics. If it protects itself from the phage, it will die the antibiotics will now be able to kill it because I was researching superbugs. So, by like 2050 or something, superbugs may be the leading cause of death. Which is crazy, that's only 30 years from now. So, less. So, if that ends up being true, we have to come up with this countermeasure. The countermeasure is phages. So, let me just one more thing concept I think that might become very clear. So, the way the bacteria deals with phages, it created a mechanism called CRISPR. And I'm assuming you know, so the CRISPR that we use to modify our DNA actually came from bacteria. So, what bacteria does is once it sees a particular type of a phage, it remembers the sequence of that phage. It's generic code. I know some of them don't technically have genes, but like that sequence of ATCG Yeah. And or would it be ATCG? ATCG U or ACGT depending on what is a RNA virus or a normal virus. Right? Phage, I don't know if the phage can actually be the RNA phage or not. I don't know that. But let's assume they're DNA phages for the time being. When it comes and infects the bacteria, bacteria remembers the sequence of ACGT. And then next time it sees, it cuts it. So, that no longer can replicate any more. Mhm. Right? So, the replication of the virus phages completely stops. We learned that mechanism of how to recognize the sequence and cut it. And this is what we use now, all of the companies like a CRISPRs and stuff that you may have heard, is to modify the human DNA. They're saying, "Can we find a particular mutation in the human DNA that causes these genetic diseases?" Still so insane to me. This causes the genetic diseases of this sequence and tell our DNA, "Hey, this is the sequence to cut." And use the same mechanism that finds the sequence in the bacteria. It's called CRISPR Cas9. And Cas9 is the guide that tells you where to cut. Mhm. Right? And the CRISPR does the cutting. Right? So, anyway, the point I want to make is that we learned from bacteria a mechanism that uses to save itself from phages. Antibiotics are primarily designed to attack, not primarily, is they're only designed to attack bacteria and not viruses. So, antibiotics, the problem is even when we have a viral things, whether it's a flu or cold, we take antibiotics. It can't do anything with the virus. It's designed to kill bacteria. And the more we take antibiotics, it's like throwing a nuclear bomb inside. It kills everything. Good, bad, ugly, everything is gone. And now your whole gut microbiome is gone, your oral microbiome is gone, and you're toasted. Right? And now you have to restart again. Right? So, now the idea is can we actually detect that when we're taking antibiotics, don't take it over use it. When we do overuse it, what happens is these bacteria start to know how to defend itself against this particular antibiotics. So, we have to keep evolving new types of antibiotics. And the problem that's happening is the companies are no longer developing a new antibiotic because the shelf life is so small, they can't make enough money. So, they stop producing new antibiotics. Because the bacteria find a way around it so fast. Bacteria eventually will find a way around it, and then antibiotic doesn't work. And nobody wants to spend multi-billion dollar developing a new antibiotics that may have a short shelf life. Right? So, they're saying is wait a sec, it's no reason to develop whole bunch of new types of antibiotics. And if you keep taking the current antibiotics, our bacteria evolve to actually defend or not be attacked by these antibiotics. And that's what creates these superbugs. What do you think about that? What what's the solution? Solution is very simple. Cut down the use of antibiotics. Cut down the use of over sanitization. So, constantly using the Purell on our hand. And I saw someone who is really paranoid. Uh does it all the time. Guess what? It's evolving these bugs to actually save itself. Learn how to not get killed. Right? So, the more you do sanitization, the worse over a long time it gets. But is that really So, that seems like a completely ineffective solution. It's one of those it would work if people would do it. People aren't going to do it especially not as we come out of COVID. Uh And by the way, if you and all everything we do to kill the gut microbiome is the problematic. Right? So, food that we are eating is you know, pesticides. What is pesticide supposed to do? Kill these organism. When we eat the food with pesticide, what does it do? Kill your microbiome, right? So, and now what happens is now your superbugs are being evolved to survive against that you know, uh attack. So, does this seem like are you really pessimistic about the avoidance of superbugs? No. What I'm pessimistic is that would humans actually start to take care of themselves before we start to lose our human species, right? So, in a sense, would we start to grow more organic food where we are able to use the microbiome of the soil itself because you know, the microbiome wants to survive. It will fight the pathogens. It will fight the bad stuff. If you really start to create the diversity in the soil. So, growing multiple different types of food, putting in more and more stuff which is organic soil, cow dung, all that stuff. What is cow dung basically full of microbes, right? And that's literally how we used to grow food that made the soil rich. It made the microbiome fought off all the pathogens and we actually had a good tasty food, actually. And really good organic food. So, I think we all have to go back to how we grow food and, you know, start to grow the way it was supposed to grow. And I'm not against like, you know, hey, don't evolve. I'm not one of the Unabomber that, you know, all innovation is bad. Innovation is good. But they're not all innovation is good. So, how do we deal with bad innovation? And let's put it in the context of AI. So, literally 2022 is the year if people want to plant a flag, it's the year that it went from deceptive to disruptive. Where now it's I'm watching debates on Twitter where people are saying ChatGPT ChatGPT is a good example. Yeah, chat like literally abolish this. There was I saw a guy today it made me laugh. Uh where he's an attorney Yeah. and somebody put a video of GPT writing a contract. Somebody just put a prompt and he was like, you contact Congress, make this illegal. I thought he was kidding, but he's actually being serious. So, how do we deal with this really good introduction. I think one of your person here just before I came on, he typed in give me an intro for Naveen Jain and it literally typed the intro that you could read, right? It's good, but the problem is very, very early stage. In fact, if you ask it a question it doesn't know the answer to, it makes up the answer based on the fact just like a brain, right? You say, "I know this, I know this, and now let me make up this answer, right?" It doesn't know to say, "Tom, I think you're going beyond our my knowledge right now. I don't know the answer to this." It actually makes up the answer. But someday, could we create, you know, general purpose AI or AGI, right? That is going to be uh very, very difficult, at least for the next 5 to 10 years. So, we are nowhere in this forget AGI for a second, and just go so literally I think this week Elon Musk released fully autonomous self-driving cars. He said 95% of people don't even realize we've released this yet. And by the way, it it is not Just remember, man, Elon Musk has what he sees and the truth sometime make limit diverge a bit, right? So, fully automatic car is someone you can actually sit on a backseat and let the car drive itself in all situations. And we all know what has happened, right? I mean, will it improve over time? Yes. Today, it gets confused between a a pedestrian or a for example or a some might could have a cutout of a person. It doesn't know the difference. You and I can look at the stuff and say that's a cutout. That car may not know the difference, right? So, the point is there are a lot of real world situations where you and I, until we have all the cars that are following the same rules. If you have humans and this car interacting, you and I, when we are on a four-stop sign, we try to move a little bit and see if other person is really And he says, "All right, you go ahead," right? If you have a human and this car, it doesn't know the dance the dance to play. AI and AI can play the dance. If all cars suddenly were using exactly the same software, they can negotiate against each other in that particular situation, but it can't negotiate against the humans because humans are not following the same rules. They cross the thing in front of you. It doesn't accept it. All I can tell you is my wife had a Tesla and we took it on a you know, fully automatic and driving and having fun and a truck literally decided to take the come into our lane and the car refused. I'm on the left most lane to go into the shoulder. It would not do because that's illegal thing to do. And I'm seeing this truck literally pressing against me and I took over and moved to the shoulder let him go. If I did not, that car would have been totaled and I would have been totaled. Right? Because it does it's not going to do something illegal to go onto the shoulder. But how far away do you think it is before because like I'll give you the one that in our world is crazy as art. Yeah. It It has come out of nowhere. We've already released art that uses AI. It's insane. Insanely good, but those are small problems to solve. It is a very tough problems to solve on a Tesla car that has never driven in a in a in a town. It won't know what to do because it doesn't have it in mapped it yet. So this seems like what you're saying is the innovations that really matter, they're not being disrupted by AI yet, but if you project forward, this is going to be a problem. What I'm trying to tease out is what you think about innovation. How do we control it, not control it, let it free? think this is Who So I think this idea that somehow AI is going to become the Terminator and it's going to kill humans, that is a far-fetched there's somebody actually created a company called Skynet? Yeah. Well It's actually called Skynet. Yeah. Well That's crazy. Yeah. It Why would you do that? The what point is it's a far-fetched idea because when we humans are building AI, people have this idea somehow it's going to become sentient and say, "I don't care." can become sentient, but you've already used it to detect cancer. But that's very different. Oral and throat. Yes, but What do you mean that's very different? In a sense that that's very very specific thing that we know what to do. Right. But it's going to grow by day, by day, by day. But that's my point. When use becomes general purpose, which is essentially any situation is can deal with, right? To become a terminator, it has to say, "I'm no longer need to follow the rules that I've written for because I am my own person." It's like your father saying, "Tom, I don't think you should do that." It's a dad. "Yeah, I hear you, but don't really care." Do you think the government should regulate AI? No, absolutely. Not at all? No, not at all. But what we should The government should regulate is the bad behavior, Mhm. not the person, right? So, in a sense, should government should be regulations on what you can do with it. Right. But not the So, think about it. Should government regulate hammer? Because you can use hammer to kill someone. Mhm. Should government regulate cars because more people are killed by the car accident than For example, even gun. Right. Right? So, should we say we need to regulate cars because more people are killed by car than gun by guns? Right? So, point number But we do regulate cars in terms of they have to be street legal. But I know, I know, but my point is you can't No, you can't drive cars because when you drive cars, people get killed. Mhm. So, we need to make cars illegal. I'm just asking about regulation, not legal. is in some sense, my belief is that we need to actually control when someone does a bad behavior, not the thing that does the bad behavior, right? So, in a sense, you can use anything to do a bad behavior. And what do we do in a law? We don't say, "Let's ban humans." We say, "Let's ban the behavior of you hurting someone. So, we ban the use of AI to do the bad thing. We don't ban the AI. So, we don't regulate human beings. We don't say, "Hey, we are going to regulate you, Tom, or you, Naveen." We're going to say, "We are going to regulate if Tom were to go out in the neighbor's house and do X." That is what we're going to regulate. So, you don't see any problem marching towards AGI. I don't see the problem because AGI, first of all, by the time we get there, we will put all the things in place that we need to put in place to be able to actually stop it from going terminate. Hm. It's very optimistic to me. Well, it will I mean, think about it. We can put the thing that says there is a kill switch. And if you put a kill switch, you can just turn on the kill switch. Well, now we're getting into, but what if it's conscious? And now, so my point is now you're saying is, "Hey, what if it says, I'm not going to follow?" But at the end of the day, it requires the power. Unless it starts to generate its own power. Hm. So, that means now you have to say, "Could you have a AI-driven robot that will have its own power? It does not need anything from anyone." Have you seen how the GPT will lie to you about like, "Oh, GPT, would you ever get so smart and, you know, not let me know?" No, I would never do that. Uh-huh. This makes up the things. My point I'm trying to make is that currently, the GPT if you ask him a question, he doesn't know the answer to. In fact, we ask a bunch of questions. He just makes up the answer. Do you know the difference between this, this, and this? And it says, "Uh yeah, this means this, this means this, this means this." It has nothing to do with reality. Right. Right. So, if you just type in the stuff that it doesn't know the answer to, it will make up the answer cuz it knows something about it. Yeah, it's very interesting. The guy, I forget his name, that does OpenAI Yeah, that's Sam Altman and you know Sam Altman, thank you. Was saying that, you know, people ask if we're censoring it. He's like, "We're not trying to censor it, but we are trying to make sure that it doesn't make [ __ ] up." That's what it does. Like, right now it makes [ __ ] up. a judgment still when you do that. It's very complex. but I think you know, it does state AI in itself can be used for a lot of good in this world. What do you think is the next big breakthrough in AI and cancer? Actually, AI and cancer cancer detection, in my humble opinion, is going to get solved in the next decade. Wow. We're already getting closer and closer. Meaning, forget just BioM for a second here. If you look at companies like, you know, Grail or a bunch of other companies like Freenome and whole other bunch of other companies Grail and Grail and Freenome. Right? So, there's a bunch of cancer detection company. Grail is able to detect about I think 10 or 15 or maybe more types of cancer. Through blood Through blood. Okay. Right? However, some of the sensitivity is low today. Specificity is very high. So, that means with 99, if you have a cancer, it's 99% chance it can. But when it says you don't, in many cases, it is a coin toss. Sensitivity is 50%. Interesting. So, they're only going to tell you that you do. Yeah, and but it doesn't If it states you don't have a cancer, there's a 50% chance you do and 50% chance you don't. And that How can that be true? Mathematically, so 50% of the time I do have it. But that if the do have is whatever 90%. Yeah. How can the the the don't be 50%? So, in a sense that in a sense, if you see So, wait, of the 5% remaining, 50% do and don't. Is that what it boils down the way it says is that with high certainty, it can detect if you have it. Yeah. Right? And it has a different sensitivity for stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four, right? So, obviously, it's very good at stage three and four and not as good at stage one and two, right? And the sensitivity is here, how many times it will miss out the cancer that you may have it, right? So, in there it's not very good. And what what I'm point I'm trying to make is forget I'm not trying to talk about them is that over time this problem will get solved. That means AI because of very finite set of biomarkers that are there when you have a cancer. So, you should be able to detect them over time. It will become close to 100% accurate where you'll be able to detect early stage cancer. Now, the question really comes down to is then what? Right? Then the next thing problem is what do we do about it? So, let's assume I say you have early sign of cancer in your mouth. Now, what do I do? The doc Somebody has to do something on it. Now, do I do is would immunotherapy work because it's advanced enough? Do we have to say hey, find where it is and do the surgery and remove it, right? Those techniques will get better and better for us to be able to personalize the treatment for your tumor, your cancer, and the location of that. Would you will be able to actually make specific thing for your immune system to go out after that. So, we can take the biomarkers and say hey, I'm going to take your immune system, modify it outside, inject it back in, so it will go in now target that particular tumor. Right? So, I think the cancer to me I'm very very hopeful and you know, this was my hope when my dad died that one day we'll be able to cure this problem. And I believe we are getting closer and closer to this thing, right? The fact we are able to detect early stage cancer, the fact other companies are able to do that. I really believe within a decade we'll be able to solve the problem of the cancer from the human body. And I really think in the next decade, we as humanity will wipe out the cancer from the human body. If you had to guess, what what is causing the cancer? I know there's no Well, so I'll answer that. If you say that there's no way to know, then I'll give you my No, I I didn't say there's no way to know. When we know that in some sense cells are constantly dividing. Our body is constantly dividing cells. Our skin, every part of our organ, I mean, our epithelial cells is being constantly being rejuvenated. Every part of our body is constantly creating the cells, right? And to large extent, uh you know, the these mis- the the DNA gets mutated. And every time that happens, our immune system basically cells send the signal and say, "Hey, something went wrong. Please come and kill me, immune system." And come kills it, right? Yeah. Right? And that works really well. Over time, as we age, and now that a lot of things happen. We start to have leaky gut, we start to have leaky gum. Your microbiome is no longer targeting well. So, the targeting of the micro- you know, targeting of our immune system is no longer as good. And it's now when there is a error, it doesn't get detected right away. And now that error it starts to work together. And now we have a tissue that's growing that is no longer our tissue. And that's what we call cancer. Right? And then, so this is the problem is immune system actually not being able to detect it and allow it to grow. Otherwise, immune- there's no reason. And that's the reason why young people rarely have cancer. Because your immune system is extremely good at targeting it and killing it. As we start to age for many, many reasons, because we have constant stress in our body. Stress causes our immune system to actually not function properly, right? Right? So, I think maybe if I can just diverge for a second here, I, you know, been looking at what causes people to die or live longer. What is that longevity that, you know, we all want to live long. Especially, I would argue that we all want to live healthy long, right? So, it's not we want to live to be 200 years in the last 150 years we just want to be on wheelchair. Nobody wants that, right? What we are saying is we really want a good health span. And if that health span can increase the life span, that's awesome. But what we don't want to do is to live our last 20, 30, 40 years of our life in completely in a vegetable state, right? We don't None of us wants that, right? So, if you want to live healthy, in my opinion, there are five pillars, just like a Maslow's hierarchy. The bottom most, the basic foundation is a proper nutrition. If you don't have a proper nutrition or proper fuel into the body, you can have a Ferrari if you don't put the right fuel. It is not going to drive well, right? So, that's the number one thing you have to solve is get the good fuel in the body that's right for you, right? So, that's where we come in today is to say, "Hey guys, eat these food, don't eat these food, right? Take these supplements, don't take these supplements." That's the nutrition part. Once that is done, you go to the next layer, which is stress reduction. What happens? What causes stress? And why does the even human body have this stress mechanism? Well, when we evolved, the only time when we had stress was when tiger was chasing us. At that time, when your body is under stress, it goes to fight or flight response. What happens in fight or flight response? It shuts down all the non-essential system. Number one, your digestive system. It doesn't care your food is being digested or not because you're about to be a lunch for someone else right now. So, it shuts down your digestive system. It shuts down your immune system. It says, "You don't need to worry about it right now." And more often than not, there are two outcomes. You got eaten by a tiger, or you survived. And if you survived, your stress went down, and you were back to normal, and you could live. Now, in our modern lifestyle, we are constantly under stress. A lot of people go to work. You and I probably don't fall into that. We love what we do. I mean, just like you, I get up at 4:00 a.m. in the morning, and I jump out of the bed, because we we love what we do. A lot of the people, unfortunately, go to work, and their boss stresses them out. They go home, their spouse stresses them out. And you and I both know that, right? We are so fortunate to have a spouse that supports you, right? I mean, you have an amazing, loving relationship with Lisa, right? Point is, that is awesome. If you have a constant stress, what's happening? You're always in a fight-or-flight response. You're not digesting the food, your immune system is not working, you constantly get sick, you're always exhausted. What did we learn? So, we say, culturally and religiously, we say, "Hey, before you eat, let's do the gratitude. Let's do the prayer." What was the purpose? To bring you back from a sympathetic mode into the parasympathetic mode, so you're no longer in a fight-or-flight response. When you do the gratitude, you automatically move out of the fight-or-flight response into the back to normal, so you can digest your food, your immune system. And that's the reason we we do the prayer, we do the gratitude, and we eat our food, so your it can digest, right? The third part of the layer is exercise. Your body has to move. It needs to Exercise helps the body actually stay in balance, right? It changes your gut microbiome. It changes the hormones your body produces, endorphins or others, right? It produces endorphins, it produces dopamine, it produces serotonin. And now we have these hubs. So, if you don't move and you are living a sedentary life, it doesn't do that. And I'm not suggesting that we become a you know, gym rat. What it turns out is you really need about 30 minutes of a good exercise that increases your heart rate. That's about it. You can do a high intensity training. You can even go for a fast walk for 30 minutes, and that is considered to be really good exercise. Right? That is third. The number four is actually sleep. And it's this misnomer that you need to sleep 8 hours. It's actually the quality of sleep matters as much as the quantity of sleep. That means how much of REM sleep are you getting? How much of a deep sleep you're getting? And I don't know about you. I mean, I measure myself through all kinds of mechanism, right? From Aura ring to my Apple Watch to my I have a pad under my mattress that measure me and I'm able to now, even in 5 hours or 6 hours, I can get almost close to 2 hours of REM sleep and 2 hours of deep sleep. When you get that, I feel really fresh, and I don't need 8 hours. And some need 4 5 hours, 6 hours. Wow. I can't get it. If If I get 5, I can do it one night, otherwise it's got to be at least 6. but do you Do you get your REM sleep and deep sleep? I'm not I haven't tracked my sleep in a while. You should do that. I really think you will find and you will learn what behavior of you causes that. I can tell you for me. Every time I don't get about 2 hours to 3 hours before I actually sleep and eating, it actually disrupts my sleep. So, I actually tend to eat early by 6:00 and go to bed by 9:00. Right, so I get 3 hours of no food. So, it allows me to digest my food before I go. Anytime I drink even half a glass of wine, it disrupts my sleep. Every time I have some type of thing that's bugging me, I just don't get good sleep. That's what kills my sleep. So, stress, anxiety, and you know, this again, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I can tell you what works for me. I have basically developed this mindset that says, "Universe is my friend. Everything that's happening to me is for my good. And there are only two types of things in this world. The things that are in my control and the things that are out of my control. If the things that are out of my control, I simply says, "It is what it is and it will be what will be." And I am at peace with that. If things are in my control, I know I am doing the best I possibly can and it is what it is and it will be what will be. And even though the things happen that look maybe, "Oh my god, I can't believe." More often than not, a decade from now you look back and they're saying, "Huh? It was the best thing that ever could have ever happened to me." So, people in the moment describe the event as good or bad. That changes their mindset. That changes their action. Simply by putting a label to an event as good or bad. We all when we were young, you broke up with a girl and you thought that was the worst thing that could have happened to you. And sometime 2 years from then, sometime 10 years, you look back and say, "What a nightmare you avoided that one, right?" Point is the event in itself is neither good or bad because you don't know until later whether it or even if it is bad, the lessons you learned could be the what changes you, what you become. And if you fall in love with who you are today, then every single thing that happened before you, you would not want to change one iota of a thing that happened to you, good or bad, because that's what made you who you are today. So, if you fall in love with yourself today, then everything that happened to you was a best benefit to you. It was what made you who you are today, right? So, coming back to it, so that's the, you know, sleep part. And the last part is really important, which is finding a purpose. There is a tremendous amount of research that shows people who live in life of purpose tend to live 8 to 10 years longer than the people who don't have a purpose. So, find what you're willing to die for and live for it. Find a purpose where you are jumping out of the bed every morning for what you do. And any morning when you don't jump out of the bed, that's the day to quit what you're doing because that's no longer your calling. And, you know, the way I define for myself is I say, you know, this idea of you have to have a passion for what you do. You know, I always say passion is for hobbies. The true calling comes from having that obsession, not obsession for a thing, not obsession for a person, but obsession to solve the problem that you care about. And once you develop that obsession to solve that problem, you spend your life jumping out of the bed wanting to solve that problem. I love it, man. Where can people follow you as you solve this very complex problem? Well, you can find me on viome.com, that's v i o m e.com. And you can find me on my social media, Instagram. You can go to naveenjain.com. And by the way, Tom, I want to tell you that I, you know, in the last recording, to date, even today, I got a email from saying, I saw you on Tom Bilyeu podcast, right? it. So, I'm going to do the same thing I did last time. If any one of you want to reach out to me, just send me an email. That's naveen.jain@gmail.com, and you will get to me. I read all my emails, right? And I did that last time. By the way, I still get emails, and I just always I will respond to every single email. Cuz to me, if I am here, if I believe I'm here to serve people, you need to be able to be actually be found. I love it. Yeah. Awesome. All right, everybody, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace. If you want the keys to living longer, be sure to check out this episode with Dr. Steven Gundry. The lining of the gut is only one cell thick. And they're all kind of held together with what are called tight junctions. Locked arm-in-arm, like a game we played Red Rover, Red Rover. That kids don't play anymore. So, the bacteria