The Truth About Women & Relationships - Neil Strauss, World's #1 Pickup Artist

Talk to me about your trajectory of perspective on relationships over the last few years. What's the what's the story arc that you've gone through that? Yeah, I mean there's I have like my private story arc and the public story arc and they're kind of the same. And so I'll just tell you the arc uh the best I can which is Basically basically what I do is I just try to I'm do I do the same thing you do. I just try to figure out things in life and when I get stuck I just do all the research and talk to all the people as well as have all the experience that I need to to learn. And so the first place I got stuck in my life was just dating. And as a guy who was writing for the New York Times and Rolling Stone about music and around on tour with rock bands around all kinds of wild decadence I felt like I was the guy on the outside watching everyone else have all the fun. So the first book obviously not the first book I think it's my it's my third or fourth. But The Game was probably the most infamous one which is me trying to figure out dating and being in this world of and and being fascinated by this world of these pickup artists and the all the social implications of that at that at that time. Uh and so that was me trying to solve the problem let's say of courtship in my life. And then great dating was a lot easier to solve than the next problem which is relationships. Right? People complain about their dating issues. When it comes to relationships they don't just complain they really uh struggle grieve go into into uh locked boxes of stress and trauma and confusion that almost no one else can enter cuz it's fun to hear people talk about their bad dates but talking about a rat bad relationship most friends after one or two or three years of someone experience the same problem actually get tired and this person stuck in the situation. I mean it's it's it's tough. It's easy to stop dating someone you're You have a bad date you have a bad date with someone who's horrible you just uh send them a polite text or I guess ghost them right? People do that but if you have a bad relationship how do you get out of that? And uh and does the other person accept your boundary that you want to leave? Usually they don't. Usually as soon as they feel abandonment they start chasing you and not letting you leave even if even if they don't want to be in the relationship that rejection is so much to them so so The game was the easy book and then figuring out the relationship part and especially looking at my own issues in relationships and my own patterns and taking a tough look at myself with relationships and not even what drew me to the game and those pickup artists. That was like the next step. So that was the next step of the journey and that's the next book and maybe the third book is is uh so ended up through everything I learned having a awesome marriage have a father of a 8-year-old 9-year-old now and it's like the best and I'm also have like an amazing divorce. So meaning that I'm like best friends with my son's mom. I feel like we really are like a I love co-parenting uh and and looking at the other side of of how do you end I guess such an amazing divorce that we're actually having another child together with my son's mom. Your ex-wife and you are no longer together in the traditional sense but are having another child because of how well you get on as parents. I think like we're great co-parents and I think we get along wonderfully and and and we just started take that journey together in a new way. Wow. Interesting right? That is I've never heard of that. No I know it's funny I saw your face when I said that. And uh I've spent a lot of time researching mating behavior and that's the first time I mean what a what an irrational way to look at something is So is is your perspective around your previous marriage we work as co-parents but not necessarily as partners? Exactly. The romantic and sexual energy may not be there but but we're really How are you going to make the baby? The baby's already made. Okay. How did you make the baby? so it's about 4 months um I'll tell I'll tell you The old school way? Yeah. I'll tell you about that I'll tell you about that let me backtrack for 1 second and then I'll tell you I'll tell you how we got there. It's it's it's people are going to people may have it'll be interesting I'll tell you that I'm I'm happy to share. Um but let me let me let me talk about the divorce for 1 second because like I'm again I'm always fascinated by what is happening in my life now versus what already happened. And I thought about this a lot and I haven't heard people talk about this but learning everything I did about trauma uh divorce I mean I think it can be it's tough if you're a child of a divorce where the parents are fighting with each other. But it's also tough if you're a child of parents who aren't divorced and fighting with each other. You just don't want parents fighting with each other in front of you at least. Um so when we got divorced I thought well how do I make this a positive experience in that person's life? Meaning our child's life. And I thought he needs a couple things. One is one is that it has to be a value add to his life not something being taken away. So what does that mean? So for him he had a friend who recently moved to a new house and he thought that house was cool. So I said how would you like two houses? It's not just one house you're going to get two houses now. Then I remember we drove him off me and his mom brought him together to the new house. Uh and I remember we got out of the car and he was so excited. He was just like so happy and like [ __ ] we're doing this right. Like I think the mistake and again there's nothing wrong with it people do what they best they can is when you sit the child down you prepare them for bad news. Doesn't have to be bad news it's great news if it's if you're both happy. Uh which isn't always the case. Then now the second thing I think you need besides a value add is no interruption of service and the service being the love of of both parents. And so that has to continue or get bigger and this can be a positive experience in a child's life. So so given that we I feel like we have a great child and and raised it well. Um I guess you want me to talk about this part. So so So um I'm cool I'm cool with it. I haven't I haven't talked about it but so so we thought yeah let's have a child the regular way but literally maybe the divorce was maybe 5 6 5 years ago. We actually celebrate our D anniversary. Like This is all going to be about divorce. You're like you're going to talk about relationships and dating and now we're just talking about divorce. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But yeah we celebrated D anniversary meaning that I think getting out of relationships harder than getting into one. Mhm. Right? And so we should celebrate the fact that we're able to like compassionately get out of it. So last last night was our D anniversary so we celebrated together with with with with our son. Wow. Okay. Talk to me about how you made the baby. Okay got it. I know. I've been crossed in my I'm going to I'm going to keep pushing you. Yes. So yeah so so um This is the craziest thing. Uh I feel like I'm going to get some [ __ ] over this but I'm I'm fine with it. It is it is what it is. Or maybe they won't I don't know. But I feel like there's people out there with a certain narrative and nothing I do will fit anyone's narrative. That's kind of the pattern of my life. But uh So we thought well we're just going to have the baby the old-fashioned way and then it just kind of felt weird. Like literally she's like my sister. We're literally like best friends and that and so it just felt it just felt weird doing that with your best friend or sister sometimes that energy is just not there. And so uh so So syringe in the bathroom. Okay. Yep. Little cup. Yep. She she went in the other room and then syringed it up. Mhm. One shot and it took. It was the craziest thing. It was Wow. You went turkey baster. We really went turkey baster and just one time. We just once. Terrifyingly fertile. Stay away from me. Yes. I don't want to be pregnant. Yeah exactly exactly. But but it's crazy but it made me realize how easy it would be for somebody to just get themselves pregnant with your stuff. Oh yeah I mean do not disagree. I think uh There's even now a a there was a video going around on TikTok about how to sort of entrap a man like what you can do. And I always I'm always so skeptical about stuff on TikTok cuz I think is this just a conspiracy of a conspiracy? Like is this someone trying to go viral by saying something that's absolutely insane? Um but yeah that's definitely a risk. That is I mean you managed to do it with one one cup and a turkey baster so Yeah so someone could easily Yep. easily easily I I just didn't realize till that moment how perilous how yeah how that we should take care with stuff. So talk to me about the common thread through all of those experiences going from Thank you for changing the subject by the way. Of course. Yes. That's future we really it's really went out of attention. Not at all. But you have you have inception The Game pickup it's sort of courtship and and and dating and validation and and sort of casual stuff. Then you have The Truth you have um integration relationships love unpacking trauma then a pivot out of that into sort of non-monogamy then a pivot back into that then the pivot into divorce. Like Is there a I see nothing as a pivot Yep. or as a brand. Yep. And and meaning by the way in between those I did a book which feels like tragically relevant now called emergency which is really about learning some the other skill of survival. Like when the [ __ ] hits the fan uh there's even acronym for it in that survivalist community, right? Uh when the [ __ ] hits the fan, what do you do? How do you save yourself? How do you save your family? So the other piece probably between these things was realizing that well you you want to be able to protect your family and you wanted to be able to be safe and you want to be uh you don't want to be a victim of history and history's happening right now. So it's really about how do you uh do your best to be self-sufficient and not live not depend on the system. We both know Tucker Max who is ultimate doomer prepper optimism man. Yeah. Only maybe 30 miles from here with a million rounds of ammunition. Um Yeah, what is the what was the common the the threat is the threat is literally just like there's stages of life that we go through and I'm just doing my best to figure them out when like the way I was raised or what I learned or what I know don't hold up for me. So if I get stuck, I make it a project and if the project's successful, I make it a book. Mhm. And so there's some projects I started that either they weren't successful or I just lost interest in and take them all the way or I didn't get a big big epiphany at the end and then I didn't make that a book or it didn't feel like worth sharing. Mhm. Was it difficult or has it been difficult for you to let go of the past versions of you, those previous identities? You know, the game was such a sort of cultural moment that you're now the pickup guy even though you were kind of a like um you were doing anthropological observation basically of this world stepping in, observing what was happening, coming back and telling everyone. How difficult is it to let go of the previous versions of you especially when the public has an expectation? I mean super easy for me, hard for other people. Why? Because like it's done. Like like literally if I if I have an experience and then I write a book about it, that's my best that's my best telling and my best version of that experience and then I move on to the rest of it and move on with the rest of my life. I think it's funny that it's surprising at all because how it would be a tragedy to get stuck in a version of who I was and what I thought was right 20 years ago or whatever it is and then keep marketing that. I really feel that people try to brand themselves, right? They're the they're the I I was even looking at one of your podcasts. There was like someone who was the the they're always the something something, right? The the the hormone wizard or the you know, or the decorating guru or or the the fat loss magician. Exactly, exactly. And then like but uh there's a great saying from Leonard Cohen, the the songwriter he was speaking at a at a music festival and the music festival was like just it was going off the rail. It was just the the the kids were going off the rails and and uh and and very similar our culture always goes these moments. There's, you know, right now or where where uh where we have the there's always these amazing moments and he goes he said this great quote. He said those who are married to the spirit of their generation are doomed to become widows in the next. What does that mean to you? What that what that means is if you you just plant your flag and you say this is it, guess what? You keep evolving. The world keeps evolving. Life keeps evolving and you're stuck in the past. And I've certainly sat there with people who had a big health message that they were really tied to who no longer believed it, no longer ate that way, but because they have a certain following that expects that, they keep doing that. What happens is you get a split in yourself. Right? And you're saying one thing while doing another and that and I think ultimately the goal at the end of the day is to just like yourself. Right? And and you're not going to like yourself deep down if you're a hypocrite. Yeah. Or or if you're still saying something you no longer believe or moved on from because you're like so much of what you talk about, so much of what your guests talk about is just having freedom of choice and if you're if you do one thing that's successful and then your audience expects that and then you start catering to them, like you're you're not free. It's a horrible way to live. Yeah. And you will begin to resent the people around you as well all the audience that you have. And it doesn't work. And it doesn't work. I always say like your audience only expects what you've done before because they don't know what you're going to do next. So they just they don't know that and so surprise them and give it to them and I like I think I try to never be afraid to move in whatever direction I feel called to uh and trust that if I just care about it and I do my best that it's going to find its right audience whether it's my audience or another audience. I don't think that way. Is there something that you rely on to continually prioritize that sort of authenticity and that uh linear um path from spirit to to sort of world? Cuz people do get captured, you know, and it's it's not like they're all doing it because I've I've found that talking about keto means that I can make some money and therefore I'm going to be the keto guy. There's just a fear of becoming someone new. Is there something that you rely on to help you stay authentic when you're looking at moving on to the next phase of life? I I would say it's more not something it's more not something I rely on or something I do. I think it's a it's a culmination of all the things I don't do. All right? So so and what I do and and I and so I think there's nothing you have to do, but it's just it's letting go of attachment to stories. The story of who you think you are, the story of who other people think you are, the story of what supposedly works cuz the fact is none of the stories even work. You know what I mean? Like like eventually you're saying the same message and people get bored of it and sort of move on. Uh it becomes predictable or you just seem like you're in the past or behind the times or something. So I don't even think those strategies they work for people. And by the way, side note, there are some kinds of people who really have one message and that's their message they want to share and that fulfills them. I've certainly met people I'm sure you have on this podcast who really have one message to say and that's really authentic to them and they don't have this curiosity that you and I have and so many of your guests have. Uh and that's true to them, but and then that's cool, right? But I think it's just about being true to yourself and like honoring that above all. Yeah, I mean even thinking about the transition from the game to the truth, like ex-player chooses monogamy is a very convenient cultural narrative. It makes a makes for a great headline. Which which is which and which and cuz there are there games we play, right? So that isn't really what the book about is about it. So you're talking about the truth and and for sure the narrative was pickup artist chooses monogamy, but the book had nothing to do with being pickup artist and the end result wasn't about monogamy. It was about it was about really choosing the end the message of the book is if you're unhealthy, any relationship style you choose is going to be unhealthy whether it's monogamy or polyamory or ethical non-monogamy or whatever whatever you what what have you. And if you're healthy, whatever you choose is going to be healthy. Right? So it's really about uh and letting go of our attachments to uh this is right or that is right. In other words, you can get be in a uh relationship and it can evolve and you might decide maybe it's time to to evolve and open it up and maybe it's time to shut it down and really be committed to each other and I think a relationship is a negotiation and a discussion. Mhm. 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Try AG1 today and get a year's free supply of vitamin D3 and K2 plus five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to drinkag1.com/wisdom. That's drinkag1.com/wisdom. Do you think our current mating culture is at odds with our evolved psychology? Um elaborate on that question a little bit. We have what seems to be ancestrally a monogamish or serially monogamal and then monogamous um approach to to mating. That but somewhere between four and seven years, that's kind of the cycle, it's enough to get a child to be uh energy independent. They can go up and look after themselves and then you and your partner are going to go separate ways. Yet we live in a culture that uh even though casual sex is allowed and even though casual sex is often promoted, I think when children come into the picture, it's like you're supposed to be together for life. There's something sacred about this union. Uh we have confluent the confluent era of romance. You know, it's not because your next door neighbor has cows and you have goats and then if your son marries their daughter, then you know, you can combine your lands together or something like that. is that is there a word for that confluent? So the most recent the most recent era is the confluent era. So um there's a phenomenal researcher that I had on the show who has done a a cultural assessment of romantic traditions uh throughout the ages and the confluent era is what he says we're in now which is um we can be in a relationship for as long as you benefit me and I benefit you and if either of us stop benefiting each other, then we go our separate ways. That's the era we're in? That's the era that he's defined it as. Here's another theory on that that I heard, and I think that's interesting. I don't know about I don't I'll just I'm thinking on that. So, I interviewed Stephanie Coontz, who wrote a book, A History of Marriage, and her take on it is, you know, we kind of went from, you know, what you were saying that it was this, you know, extra workers and inheritance rights and things like that to this idea of love to now she sees it as a pick and choose thing. And I'm because I guess I'm an example of that, which is like, okay, do I want kids or not want kids? Do I want monogamy or do I want not want monogamy? Do I want Do I want kids without marriage or kids with marriage? Do I want We sort of have this checklist, and we can kind of design the thing that we want. In my case, like, okay, I'm having a child, but without the marriage, and, you know, what I think so she sees it as this sort of pick and choose era. Mhm. Um and uh I don't know if there's a name for it or word for it, but I that feels more right to me than the confluent thing is like, I'm with you as long as you serve me and I serve you, and then we move on. That almost sounds like what it was before, when it was like, well, it serves me to have uh more more workers in a division of of labor. Well, you also know that more choices don't necessarily make us happier. Like, the paradox of choice is a big deal. If it's like, okay, here is the one relationship style that people go for, this is the direction that it's in, you have village of this many people, constraints on choice actually enable satisfaction in many ways. Oh, totally. I mean, I think if we were if there were arranged marriages, we're like and and again, assuming there's no emotional physical abuse, like, we'd be like, let's find a way to make this work. You and I with our our minds, and I keep saying it because I think we think similarly in terms of like having this learning growth mindset. You're like, okay, I'm going to make it work. I'm going to adjust myself. I'm going to see how we can work it out. So, so for sure. I think uh I I agree with you on the on the paradox of choice. Uh and um and that's certainly the challenge we're having now with like with like the core in the courtship world as far as there's just so many apps, and these apps are like throwing so many people at you that people are like, you know, uh pricing themselves out of the game in the sense that uh I mean, they're just serial daters who go on dates literally all the time, and that's just what they do because they like that quick validation. Um and then the thing you're dealing The interesting thing we're dealing with on the apps as far as this goes, and I realize we're jumping all over the courtship, relationship, divorce We're doing it all backwards. But uh but the interesting thing about apps I find so fascinating, I met one of the this what I met one of the co-founders of Tinder reached out to me, and he says, you know, uh part of the reason we started this app was because I read The Game, and I thought, oh, that's so much work. Wouldn't it be nicer if you just already knew when someone was attracted to you and can take it from there? Mhm. So, it's it's interesting, but I think it's like you said, I think it it is a lot of admin, but the other thing is if you're hiring for a job, uh it's tough when if you if you put a an ad out because the same unemployable people keep circling the job pool, right? They get a job for a couple months, and they get let go, or they can't find a job. The same is true of the dating apps. A lot of the same undatable people keep circulating and circulating and circulating. So, if you're on them regularly, it's easy to get cynical about your prospects. Are you familiar with LMS? Do you know what that is? No. Looks, money, status. All right, makes sense. Okay. So, it's the uh triage priority list that a lot of guys in the black pill movement rely on and say is most important. Looks is most important, then money, then status. For men? Yes, for men. What's your thoughts? My thoughts is it's like it's a sad way to think. It's a sad It's a sad way to think. Um and uh I I guess like I'm just I'm just kind of thinking out loud. I got a bunch of thoughts on the the stuff you're saying. Um But to speak back to your to speak back to your what what you were saying about what it's like to be someone, I think like I think mostly we're all living in our own stories of what it's like. And I think like if you choose to see the best in people, you're going to notice the best behavior. If you choose to see the worst in people, you're going to notice the worst worst behavior, and I think you're it starts with the eyes you're seeing the world through. Uh and so, down to looks, money, status, I think that I mean, I think sta- I would probably I think they got it wrong. I I think that I think that there there's um that And how would they define status? I guess I'll ask you. I wouldn't be too sure. I would guess something like popularity. Right. Um So, I would say it's high status behaviors. And I mean, I know this because I went and hacked it in the game, right? As a guy who is not that good-looking, um as a guy like who at least at that time didn't didn't have any like, you know, wasn't someone recognized didn't have a lot didn't have status, didn't have money, didn't have looks, didn't have fame, we realized and I also was a guy who once I wrote The Game, I had the people with the most looks, the most money, the most status calling me, like this [ __ ] 5'6" big nose, you know, dude who keeps saying, you know, and can't even articulate a really clean sentence, calling me for advice. The same [ __ ] I was taught I was deal alone dealing with, they were dealing with the same thing. And I think it really goes down to like how you how you your the story you tell yourself more than money, looks, and status, and then how you reflect that story. Mhm. As a simple example, I've seen a lot of people with money, looks, and status engage in low status behaviors, meaning being insecure, being doubtful, not carrying themselves well, not speaking, uh just always being worried about what others thinking about them, and whatever they had whatever whatever those gained for them, they lost it. There's a line There's like a troubadour poem that like that's something about the when you're first sort of talking about making romance into art, uh in that era that's like the eyes the eyes go forth to seek an image which they can then recommend to the heart. And so, I think the money, looks, and status like might get your foot in the door, but after that, it's who you are that enables you to stay in that door, unless you're dealing with someone who has similarly low self-esteem, right? And it's just out there looking for a target who has those things cuz they've got their own wounds, they feel like that gives them safety. I think Let's go Sorry, go ahead. No, just one of the interesting reflections that a lot of friends who maybe in the early 2010s were trying to do game and pick up and day game and stuff like that, what they realized was they became quite disenchanted, I think, with the world of dating because they saw what they needed to do in order to be attractive to women, and then realized the distance that that was from who they really were or what they thought they needed to do in order to be attractive to women, and realized that I can get what I want, but what I want doesn't actually see me, and that distance between the two of I'm having to tell them about the [ __ ] fight outside and you do my kino escalation and ignore the and do all the rest of the stuff, that I think caused a lot of them to uh become very disenfranchised and disenchanted with the world of dating. Yeah, I think I mean, a couple couple thoughts, and and to go back, so again, these are like the stories we we tell ourselves. Like, I think that there's a learning process, and maybe you learn I if I look back on the game, you know, there's so many different issues around it, negative and positive and everything else. Um but I see it as a lot of sort of neurodivergent people trying to learn how to socially interact, including myself, for right? Yeah. And so, so for me, I needed those little I didn't know just tell me what to say and like how to angle my body. I was so I was so uncomfortable around people, and then once I learned it that I could let it go the same way uh you learn anything, which is sort of learning the rules and then throwing them throwing them out. Yeah. Um So, second I got three points to make with your Again, these topics are so interesting, right? Uh second thought is that another perspective on the on the LMS thing you said, uh which which uh uh the second perspective is people don't know what they want. So, they might what they want are the things behind that. So, a way to think about uh for example, it used to really hurt my self-esteem when I read personal ads, and everyone wanted a guy who was 6 ft or and taller. How how How tall are you? 5'10". Okay, that's great, right? I'm I'm I'm 5'6", you know? Maybe 5'6" and a half at a stretch, right? And it took me a long time to realize that it wasn't height they were looking for. What they were looking for was safety. I want to feel safe when they're when maybe the What is Let's just say What is money represent? Money represents it's some some degree of you know, security. Competence. Uh competence. That was the word I was looking for. Exactly, competence. So, so, if you look at the reasons underneath these and you embody the reasons that are underneath these, which anybody can do, the other stuff doesn't matter. Yeah, I think that's where the sort of disenchantment came from, which was not feeling like you had the actual foundation, realizing that you could create the glitzy sort of mystique. Like, you do not need to see how much money I have. You do not need to see how much money I have. And then going, oh, I can get what I want by pretending to play this game, and deep down I still don't feel like I'm worthy of it. I don't think that they see me. What they see is this persona. Right. It seems like you're saying, I don't want you to know how little money I have. You're like that influencer we were talking about earlier who's promoting a vegan diet diet while eating meat for dinner, you know, you're you're creating a split in yourself. Um so, here's the other thing you were talking about is I think these people you're talking about, you know, the like the concept of locus of control. Like there's external locus of control and internal locus of control and I'm probably going to get these wrong, so I apologize apologies if I do. Um, so the idea is like are the things that are happening to me the fault of others outside myself, which is a nice thing to believe, right? It's just women are like that that's I'm opting out. Men are like that, that's I'm just not dealing with that. The world, you know, and so we're just saying we're creating this this it's everybody else's fault so I don't have to change. I can just hate on them, right? Uh, or B the way I am and the way I think you are is that like this is going on, how can I do better, how can I change, how can I do better, how can I understand, how can I be empathic and like it's a lot more work, but man, you're a lot happier. Yeah, I think the benefit from the cynic's perspective the benefit of never trying is never having to feel the pain of failure. Yeah. That's I came up with this idea called the cynicism safety blanket, which is basically that. That's that's why it exists. It's sour grapes at an existential level. Yeah, and so I notice myself if I ever start to feel and I don't even do this anymore cuz I stopped it. Like if I ever start thinking something negatively about someone who's successful and start comparing their work to mine and why mine, you know, I just stop instantly and I just think, you know, what can I learn from that for myself and uh again, most of your listeners I feel like are learning growth minded people. Correct. But I think we can understand that there's certain people and I've come across them that if you're if somebody is doing better than you, you can either try to do better or you can try to bring them down to your level and that's like that's a split in the world, but the people who try to bring them down are the loud voices right now correct in the culture. Correct. So, you do you still run a men's group? Uh, no, I I did for a while and now I just sort of do not really. Okay. But you've been tangential to men's worky Yeah, I'm in a I'm in a men's I'm in a men's group as a as a uh participant. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, given the fact that for best part of 20 years now you've been in one form or another observing men's development emotionally, relationally, spiritually, psychologically, therapeutically, uh what do you make of the current state of men's friendships, mental health, masculinity, role models, so very common talking point. What what's your perspective on where men are at at the moment? Yeah, I've heard you talk about it a bit on the podcast, but what's your kind of take now in a nutshell out of curiosity? I think that men are being made to pay for the sins of a patriarchy that they no longer feel like they're a part of at the moment. They're being told how privileged they are and how fortunate they are to have all of these different advantages and quite rightly there are outliers at the top, the Elon Musks, the Bezos's of the world, the NBA players, the NFL players, um, but I don't think that that fully captures the male experience and I think that a lot of men don't feel like they're they feel like their worries are being dismissed out of hand by a whining class, this sort of chattering class. Meanwhile, suicide, depression, friendlessness, loneliness, sexlessness, health, all of the problems that we know that men have, uh and I think that it's making them feel quite embittered toward the world because what they're saying is I'm suffering and you don't care. So, [ __ ] you. I'm not going to play your game. Right. And now who in this story is you? Who in that story is me? No, you you don't care who when they when you're saying you, who is the you? This might get to the point I was going to thinking of. The world. Yes. Okay. So, I think we had this split that we think the world is this stuff we receive, you know, from our devices and from our computers and and that's a game we don't want to play. So, there's an unhealthy game of thinking that the voices that are loud online and the you know, the toxic that fed into our feed and the s- tweets we see are somehow the belief of the culture. And and and it can really mess us up and and I've seen I've I've seen you had on the podcast the woman who did that wonderful JK Rowling podcast and there there's somebody who like literally just she just got sucked into this sucked into this hole and she's now living her life out of her trauma that was again, I'm just really smart taking but that that um, you can get you can get taken off course by just listening to these voices and thinking that the culture thinks it or people think it. It's just one one of many stories out there, but and and I think it can get confusing if you have less of a grounded sense of self or if it plays into your personal trauma. I think the problem that a lot of people, especially young people at the moment are facing is that their experience is the internet. Their world is the internet. You know, if you're spending between 6 and 8 hours a day on screens, online, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, video games, that is more real than the real world. What do you mean the [ __ ] real world? Like this is my real world. You I'm I'm observing it. Like what are the where are the countervailing narratives that push back against the fact that maybe people do care about the fact that men are suffering. Maybe people do care about the fact that I'm really struggling to get a job or a girlfriend or I feel I'm neurodivergent and I don't understand what to do. I I I can't hold down a a a relationship or I don't have enough friends or whatever it is. Like if you're not going out there into the real world to see the alternate story lines. Yeah. And that I think that's I think that's exactly the point that it is very real for people and when it becomes that real, it actually does become dangerous and and I would say that I would say it's happening to everybody. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't matter what what your identity is or how you identify yourself, there's some vector of attack that is really making you feel like you're doing it wrong, you're not enough, you step out of line you get slapped really, really hard and and and and really that's why it's important going back to what you said for me to be in a men's group or for me to be in a world in a in a community of small amount of people who really, really care, who support you in the best way you can, where you can really get that feedback and you can say, you know, what I've seen the stuff online and it's stressing me out in this way. So, I think the point being I mean the all these there is a real problem in terms of these are not contributing to anyone's mental health. Um and and I think a few things are important. I mean one is to really try to stay out of a victim story. To start cuz once you get into a there's that saying and I think it's the most true thing ever that all perpetrators perpetrate from the victim position. I mean look at every war going on and the main thing is is there's a victim. I'm not saying that whatever's right or wrong, but all sides are the victim. Right? Mhm. You know, like interesting point. whether it's Hitler was in encirclement, Putin was in encirclement, right? We're surrounded by enemies, we're the vic- like so we perpetrate from the victim position. So, I the first step is if you really want to get any any uh reality on it to stop and and get out of the victim story cuz this is when people start that's where that leads to the hate or that makes it okay to sort of perpetrate. Uh, but we can't say there are all these variables around us and how can we curate these variables so they help us? And I do think these it's insane, it's wild to me that all these companies that pretend to care about people don't have their algorithms working to actually help people versus market to them. Like I would love something and it's just the way the system works and capitalism works, but what if the algorithm was not like what can we sell you or what can we market to you, but like how can we improve your mental health? Mhm. Right? How can we how can we make you and and I think that would help the world and actually create better consumers. Anyway, so so so I hear I hear I hear what you're saying um, and I get to the point of view that I don't want to uh um I don't want anyone to tell me what my identity is what it should be how I should be within that identity. I probably identify myself on other factors more than I think a lot of especially guys, but also girls increasingly now are lost. They don't know it. We're in this completely new world. If you're either millennial or Gen Z or Gen A, your parents don't really have the skill set or the awareness to be able to work out how to exist in this world. What does it mean to be technologically native? What does it mean to be in a world with porn and Tinder and OnlyFans and and expectations and boob jobs and BBLs and stuff. What does it mean to exist like that? So, people are quite rightly looking for archetypes and role models. I want someone to give me some advice to get me out of this. So, I don't disagree. Many people like the idea of agency and sovereignty over their own direction. I don't want anybody to tell me who I am or what I should do or the way that I should do it. I want to feel like I am the captain of my own ship. And yet, there are people who also need some [ __ ] guidelines. How am I supposed to exist in the world? What does it mean to be confident? Where does my self-esteem come from? Why should I seek validation and not seek validation? These are questions that people look for role models and unfortunately I think culture is just offering up like very few and here's my like my Yeah, yeah. spicy meteorological take for the future. I think that male body dysmorphia will overtake female body dysmorphia and female crisis of femininity will overtake the crisis of masculinity within the space of about 20 years. I think that we're feeding the seeds of a unbelievably fragile narcissistic generation of women and a unbelievably aesthetically anxious generation of men. And add to this add to this computation that AI is going to create these archetypes that like no human being can live up to a perfection. I was seeing some of the So like on one hand the culture is getting into sort of body positive body positivity. On the other hand AI is creating these like archetypes that go like beyond what people are seeing on TV. perfect ratio like yeah yeah yeah. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah so so it's like I think we're we're we're but um here here's my thought. I think there's there's an I'm I'm a big reader. I think you're talking in another podcast about reading and I love reading and right now I'm reading this amazing So Penguin did a box set of the great books. It's called the little black classics I think. And it's it's a box set of 80 of the greatest books throughout history of the last I don't know 3,000 years. And then there's about 40 or 50 books beyond that. I'm I'm going through them all in order, right? And and what I'm learning from it is when I'm reading about a a monk in Japan and the Kenkō I forget what century he was from but at least you know four or five centuries ago to reading Mozart's letters with his dad he to reading the Socrates to reading Camus like these things you're talking about maybe the language was different that we were still everyone was still dealing with that. The trouble with Socrates is like people are telling me who I should be and how I should be. I don't follow the common beliefs. You know there's all these rumors being spread about me that aren't even true. Like he's literally you know dealing with the same stuff and sure you know there's more of it and the devices are different and it's being blissed in this this other way but I think they're they're um they're this human nature and these problems we dealt with like there is a timeless quality to them when we read them they seem really unique generationally. We will get back to talking to Neil in 1 minute but first I need to tell you about Shopify. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the United States. They are the global force behind Gymshark, Allbirds and in case you didn't know it Nootropic. Shopify is the global commerce platform and it helps you sell at every stage of your business. They're your no excuses business partner. You can sell without learning to code or design. Just bring your best ideas and Shopify will help you open up shop. Plus Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way. Look, if you're starting an online business it's not because you want to learn how to code or do graphic design. Shopify handles all of the BS so that you can focus on building and selling an awesome product. Right now you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom all lower case. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Do you think that it's possible to game love or connection in a relationship in the same way as you were able to do it with courtship? Um I mean I think I think my short the short version of the answer is any And by the way what are your thoughts on that by the way cuz I know we have a different thought cuz I noticed you switched the topic which is fine we can go to that. What are your thoughts on the idea that and I can give you some I think if you have someone who reads Albert Camus' create dangerously for example Mhm. he literally complains about some of the things people are He's like about some of the things that people feel like they're uniquely complaining about now. Like some of the lines could could could could could apply to today or I just think there's probably a set of everything I read everything I read and I can send you some of these excerpts like I'll mark things that literally sound like it's people talking about perennial problems perennial problems. But what do what are your thoughts cuz I think you're you see it in a very we're in a unique cultural crisis of masculinity and mental health. Well I think from the gaming love long-term connection thing it seems to me that more people are beginning to wake up to the fact that they probably don't want to sleep around indefinitely and kind of be in this weird Tinder admin like liminal purgatory for the rest of time. That probably doesn't sound like fun. Uh but no one really talks about love in relationships. You know even a lot of the evolutionary psychology stuff that I've dug into and I know that you've looked at as well it speaks in a very sort of sterile transactional way. It's mate value and it's offering for status and protection and resources over fecundity and age and fertility and blah blah blah. Uh and no one ever talks about the actual felt experience of being in love or or what it's like to be attached to somebody else and be dependent on them and and and be in union with them and and and do things that make each other feel good and and stuff like that. It's always it's always a very dispassionate look at how what what's the ledger? What's the balance sheet of this? And at least as far as I can see I think that you can quite easily game attraction but it is much more difficult to game connection. And when you say no one talks about love you mean like what do you mean by that? at the dating advice that you see that's online. Right. Like how much of the dating advice talks about this is what it feels like when you're head over heels besotted with a guy or girl partner and this is how you can handle the emotions that come up of jealousy and uncertainty and anxiety and fear of being left and all of these things. No one ever wants to talk about that because it seems in a modern world where we you know we can predict the weather and we can send rockets into space and we've conquered bacteria and we've got a theory of disease and we've got AI love kind of almost feels like God. It's sort of this very unsophisticated wishy-washy Can I talk about kind of love or relationships just in your case? Both. Both I think. I just don't think that there's a massive amount of discussion about love or relationships and how to build them together in any in a phenomenologically uh consistent way. Yeah I get I guess I'm in my By the way in my in my mind I actually think there's more out there on relationships than courtship and I guess maybe it just depends on what silo you're in and and what what your Yeah what what's your what's your echo chamber because uh because like a a lot of people out there are hurting over relationships. They're hurting over a past relationship they were in where they're just traumatized from the experience and they're hurting over one they're in and they just can't get out of. They're hurting one that over one that's over should be over but this person is still in the court system fighting them for their child. They're hurting because they dated a narcissist or you know sociopath or someone with borderline who put them through a living hell and gaslit them and drove them So there's so much there's more pain out there from people trying to figure out their relationship stuff and consequently I think more people looking for to books and podcasts and experts and healing around that at least in in my silo. Where does the healing the other side of what you're talking about is uh then there's a flip side of it which is there's a part of there's a love being marketed to us through movies and pop songs that is also not realistic to what our expectations of it you know should be. that um So maybe I can think of your question another way which is we're we're seeing the horror stories and we're seeing the fantasies. You're smiling cuz I'm agreeing cuz we're agreeing, right? But but but where where are we seeing like what's what really should be a healthy expectation of what a relationship is like? Right? Which it which means that you know a relationship with zero conflict is a warning sign. It's not a great relationship, right? That means someone is That's usually what what they call a parallel relationship. Two people living separate lives under one roof. It's okay to have you know again as long as there's no emotional or physical abuse. It's Conflict is good. To me a healthy relationship is how quickly you recover from the conflict and truly get back to where you were before it. That's a healthy relationship. I've heard you say you shouldn't be using science to decide what to do with your heart. Yes. And I do think a lot about how much people are trying to rationally logic themselves into a effective satisfying relationship. Yeah yeah I think it's true. I think like it's it's fascinating to the other side of it is people who really have long list of what they want and then they just go for the same broken [ __ ] every time and the list goes away and or or or they think they think they found that thing they want that meets their list but that was the mask and they end up in the same horror story they were before. So so going back to relationships I do think the I mean I think the healthiest way to have the healthiest relationship learned from experience is literally just it goes back to external versus internal locus of control. It goes back to like I can control I I love I love like I love the work of always working on yourself. Like I just love it and I think if there's a theme or these places where we differ it's probably I'm always blaming myself. I'm always looking at myself. I can't control the culture. I can't control what people think. But what I can do is control how I respond to it. And to me it's giving myself the ultimate agency. Right? And so I can't I don't want to get in the story that I'm upset about something outside myself that I have no control over. I want to get in the story of well [ __ ] I'm reacting to that. Why am I reacting to that? What thoughts am I then having because of that? How can I not be reactive? And then going back to relationships Here's a I've never articulated this but I think it's important idea which is you don't know whether you're again taking aside the edge cases of emotional physical abuse, you don't know whether your relationship with the problem is you or your partner until you stop reacting to your partner. So, if I'm in a relationship and I come with a bunch of complaints and I say why it's not working, then I'm reacting. You know, they're saying something and I'm getting upset about it or I'm getting hurt about it or I'm getting resentful or I'm shutting down or I'm whatever it is until they can have uh any kind of response. And I can really just be empathic, I can listen without taking it personally, I can not defend I can not defend myself, I can just seek to understand. Um I'm not able to judge the health of my relationship. I don't know if that was a little bit of a tangent. Does that make sense? What would you say to the people who do continue to find themselves repeating the same patterns, whether it's their perspective of the world, their perspective of relationships, the kinds of people that they are attracted to or attract? What are the first places that those people should look? Yeah, I think there's I think there's two sides of it, right? There or maybe there's three sides of it, right? In a relationship there's three entities. There's you, there's the other person and then there's the relationship itself as a third entity, right? So, I think we can look at I think we can kind of look at all three of those. So, one side is understand again, like attachment theory is so trendy right now that that I don't even need to talk about it cuz everyone knows it, but when I first talked about it, like it was really new stuff, but understanding that we're wired a certain way because we love what's familiar. That's the easiest way to think about stuff. We love what's familiar. So, consequently, um if you had a narcissistic parent, you'll you you'll probably going to try to meet some form of narcissist and then try to get seen by them and it'll lead you to immense frustration. Or you had an abandoning parent, you're going to choose somebody who is not emotionally there or not physically there or replicating that for you in some way. You're going to try to heal your child through through trying to get them to be there, to be seen through all these things. And I think like so, step one is heal yourself instead of trying to expect someone else to heal you. So, that goes against What was that word you said about the relationships where we use each other? Uh so, so step one is like um what's that classic book on self-esteem that Ayn Rand's like Nathan Nathaniel Brandon? Uh he really said about we attract people who are on level of self-esteem. Mhm. So, whenever someone's By the way, I I hope I'm not throwing too many ideas in one place at once. So, so whenever someone I just love these subjects. They're so fun to talk about. Uh so, whenever somebody is saying complaining about their partner, my brain I'm always thinking you're dating them or you're married to them. Like what way in which way are you an equal that's not that your partner is you're so emotionally mature and your partner's so emotionally immature. You're dating each other. You're attracting your own level of that. Maybe you're the flip side of the same coin. Mhm. But it's the same coin. So, the first thing is raising your own level of like emotional health, uh healing those childhood pat- pat- patterns and wounds, uh working on the uh um self-esteem piece. Like you want to attract better people, just like literally become a better person, right? All those that list you have of everything that you need in a relationship, go look at yourself with that list and you embody those and you'll find that person. You know, I love Byron Katie's four questions and the best part about them is By Byron Katie at has those four questions that where you can challenge your beliefs. But the fifth thing is the turnaround and that's changed my life. And here's like a shortcut for using it. If I ever tell myself a story, that person's annoying, the turnaround is and I can list the reasons they're annoying, I say I'm annoying. Then I can think of all the reasons I'm annoying, right? I can get to my partner's never there for me. What are the ways in which I'm not there for the partners? If I turn things around, my accusations of other people to myself, I can usually see we can all see usually, but I can usually see I'm not I'm just as imperfect. So, first step is heal yourself. But the challenge in that is is um uh the best way to learn about how to about a how to have a healthy relationship is to be in one. So, there's tools and skills you can have in a relationship that you can work on it. So, if you're in a relationship that again, where you're not dating someone who was really toxic or toxic for you, uh is to like work on your own reactions. Like literally, relationship is a system, right? And so, if you change the piece of the system you can control, yourself, the whole system changes. And I can't tell you how many times in my experience and other people's experience that if I change how I react to things and just respond instead of reacting, if I change some part of myself, the whole relationship changes. And all that all that energy, sorry, man, I've got so much to say on this No, no, no, no, I'm enjoying it. Honestly. Okay. All that energy people put into changing their partner never works. It never works. It just creates resentment and you're reenacting a parental figure they had when they were younger that criticized them, right? They signed up for that. And so, if you just take that energy out, you work on yourself, you change, your partner will automatically change. Like they'll just change cuz the system changed. They'll say, "What are you doing? You seem happier. What's what's going on for you? You're in that men in that men's group, maybe I should be in this women's group or you're just doing therapy who maybe I should get therapy, too." Like [ __ ] man. Just like it's all goes back to like Yeah, it all goes back to like the better you make yourself, the better relationships you'll be in and the better the world around you will start to look. What are the modalities that you've found best for unpicking these patterns? Yeah, I think there's a there's a formula that I think of. Uh your eyebrows raised. I love you. Like this is like podcast called Wait, there's a formula? Okay, so so it's the it's these three things. I think these work together. Um So, people always talk about therapy doesn't work, but I think they're talking about talk therapy and I agree that talk therapy is not great for change because your problems were developed before you had um the intellectual capacity. They They wounds happened emotionally. And so, I think we need to heal them. It's best to heal them emotionally. So, I think the formula is is these three things. So, one is deep intensive uh deep intensive experiences that are whether they're workshops or things where you're really really unpacking your wounds and you're just a puddle of tears on the ground. So, so some container where you can block off the outside world and all that social media you're talking about and really break rip off the band-aid and and just be a What are some examples of that? Sure. My favorite that I'll say my favorite the one that worked for me and by the way, people thing they say the best is usually the first thing they did that really worked. So, so my bias and the first one that really worked for me was the at The Meadows, which is uh treatment center in Arizona. They have a program called the Survivors program. And it's like an exorcism of your childhood wounds. Like you sit there in a chair like this and I literally felt like an exorcism. Um and I remember leaving the therapy and for the first time, I'm like, "Fuck, this is who I am without all that shit." Without all that baggage I was carrying from mom and dad and all my upbringing. Like [ __ ] this is who I really am. And then of course, you go back to your regular environment and the same [ __ ] happenings and you start having the same response, but now I you have a target to get back to. People love the Hoffman process. I think the Hoffman process is is very is amazing as well. Um the difference is it's it's this Meadows is a you know, a psychiatric facility and you're getting one-on-one work. Uh the Hoffman process is group work, but it's also amazing. Um But uh but here's the here's the thing. I think anything you do where the person and yourself both have the intention of really getting better and it's not a cult. Is it a cult? Must ensure it is not a cult. Here's how you know it's a cult. It's a cult if part of the treatment involves you signing up other people for the work. Simple rule of thumb. I've been I've cuz I do so much self-improvement stuff, I went to these ones that were culty. Mhm. It was amazing to see how the brainwashing worked and how effective it was. Mhm. They like create these loops within the self-improvement teachings that they then pull the strings on months or years later that get you to follow it like a robot. It's unbelievable. How interesting. But here But let me add one more thought to that. No, no, no, keep going. We've got two more stages to get through. Okay. So, so this therapy at The Meadows is called post-induction therapy, speaking of cults. The idea is that your childhood is like a hypnotic induction. Your childhood is a is a cult. That nice Is that your I got to show your drink there. Get it Get it in you. A little bit more. Um This is This is how you get these three-hour podcasts. That's correct. Um So, your childhood is a hypnotic induction or you're in a you're being do- indoctrinated to a cult. And the cult is whatever your parents believe, right? We all grow up and so, the post-induction therapy is un-brainwashing you from this cult you were in for the first 17 years. Mhm. Which I love. What was that? Can you just briefly describe the process of is it like acquisition and pruning that happens in the brain? I know you talked about that before. Yeah, so I'll tell you what, I'll kick the two other things and we'll talk about that. back to that. Okay, so first one just to round out that first stage of your three-step process to becoming the ultimate human. deep intensive workshop, like, you know, just one or two a year where you're just emotionally kind of where where you're going through some sort of emotionally purging experience. And what what are the principles of that modality that it's something which is emotionally intensive? Yeah, and multiple days Yep. and um in just a sort of safe container. Understood. Okay, that's one. Um meaning that simply you're just trying to let let and then then as everyone who's ever been to an amazing seminar or workshop knows, you you get that high, post seminar high and then you go back into the same old [ __ ] right? So, step two is maintenance. Meaning, we get this change and we get our brain gets set right. We go back to our world and the same stuff is just happening, the brain starts to go askew again. So, I want to talk about the men so some sort of weekly accountability so you can just uh keep being reminded of what direction your your your your boat should be pointed in. Here's an awesome thing about these men's groups and like I really um and I'm not saying go on I'm actually not saying go on Instagram and find somebody who's starting a men's group, you know, and join that. What I'm actually saying when I when I say men's group I what I did was I took five or six people about at my level of of work some people you know. Um and uh and we're at the same place, maybe we're have have kids or marriage or divorce whatever it is and then we all chipped in for one therapist. So, this is really affordable. It's cheaper than individual therapy and group therapy has been like studied to be more effective but what's amazing about group therapy is I can sit say you're the therapist and you have a point of view. I can just say, well, you know, he's wrong. He doesn't know me. Like that's just his opinion and how he was learned how he was taught. But if it's you and four other peers who I recommend and they're all saying I'm wrong, like I don't think you guys are right but you're all saying it so there must be something there for me to explore. Nowhere to hide. Yeah, nowhere to hide and with a with a group between your weekly sessions with the therapist you can stay in touch with the group. Mhm. So, I strongly recommend it. It's it's it's uh and you need the therapist there just for the accountability so you don't go off on some It just becomes a bro evening. Yeah, it becomes a bro evening or you just don't you're reinforcing some unhealthy behavior. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. You might have heard me say that I took my testosterone from 495 to 1006 last year. Two of the supplements I used throughout that were Fadogia Agrestis and Tongkat Ali. Hey, I first heard Dr. Andrew Huberman talk about the really impressive effects which sound great until you realize that most supplements don't actually contain what they're advertising. Momentous make the only NSF certified Fadogia Agrestis and Tongkat Ali on the planet. That means that they are tested so rigorously that even Olympic athletes can use them and that is why I partnered with them. So, if you are not performing in the gym or the bedroom or you just want to improve your testosterone naturally, Fadogia Agrestis and Tongkat Ali are two great places to start. Best of all, there is a 30-day money-back guarantee so you can buy it completely risk-free, use it and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. You can get up to a 32% discount on everything site-wide with the code modern wisdom by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom. That's l i v e m o m e n t o u s.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. big change workshops Yep. Around about one to two a year. Uh yeah. You know, or for whatever Yeah, yeah, one or two a year or just it could just be one every couple of years. Um you know, I think the Vipassana retreats are probably great. I haven't done that thing where you hole up in a solitary confinement therapy. friends couple of friends have done that. Do they like it? Mixed bag. Uh I mean whether it's a darkness retreat, whether it's um Pete Retslaf did I think three weeks of daily psychotherapy uh which was basically like him being sort of locked in a Like like they he was adamant after two weeks, I'm done. I'm I'm completely sweet and they were like, you're not done. And he got real frustrated and then sure enough like day 19 of 21 or whatever was the day that everything happened. Wow. Um but yeah, there's there's a lot of these sort of intensive intense retreats. Then um men's group or some kind of circling group Some some type some sort of like uh talk accountability. So, we'll do therapy or or just a group it doesn't need to be a men's group or a women's group it can be whatever group. And the third thing is tools to use when you're in the moment of crisis. Meaning uh Okay, as a as like a one simple tool is like say re- re-parenting. So, so my issue in relationships was enmeshment at a really dominant narcissistic mom as by the way a lot of people who were on that pickup artist seduction world did. So, a lot of the idea behind that is I was suffocated by the overpowering feminine. I never want to be victim go back to that [ __ ] of the feminine again so I'm going to learn a way to empower myself. So, that's besides a neurodivergent narrative that's another group and out of curiosity was your what was your mom situation? Uh no, I wouldn't have said narcissistic introverted um uh tried incredibly hard. I'm an only child so an awful lot of uh care and sort of precious attention uh placed on me. Yeah, so could it so uh besides narcissist there could be a like a super anxious and super depressed parent would also sort of be enmeshing because then your their needs come before your own sometimes. What is enmeshment? Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, this this is like the most important idea. So, I'll tell you I'll finish the third thing and I'll do the enmeshment and then there's another thing we're going to get back to. Yeah, no worries. It's funny. I was like, how are we going to um We're not going to run out of stuff to talk about. Yeah, I know. We're going to have to stop at some point cuz um But again, like uh Tools to use in a moment when you're in crisis. Yeah, and by the way, I want to say one thing for your compliment which is um you know, when I listen to your podcast uh you really let the guest talk a lot as you're doing so nicely to me but you're also really like connected and engaged and care about Thank you. said and it's a wonderful balance. I was a little nervous because I love conversation dialogue that's connected like we're having and not just um and uh you do a great job of of really thoughtfully listening and uh letting your guest go on for a while if they Not at all. I'm I'm continuing to draw it out of you. You're a font of interesting things so let's keep going. Okay, so so the third thing is tools to use in the moment. So, uh so meaning that let's say I learned that I was suffocated by the overwhelming parent. So, when uh Ingrid my wife at the time I uh ex-wife, future of my mother child ex-wife, future baby mama. I don't know what it is. This is definitely the next book. Whatever this is, this is this is the book. There we are. Uh you know, it's the next stage of the life journey. So, conscious recoupling So fun. So funny. This is going to be a thing now. It's so ridiculous that something like that conscious re-parenting Yeah. So, uh so the re-parenting thing is when we get you know, triggered or react to it something our parents our our our partner does. It's funny that that I said parent because we're re-enacting something that comes from our parents so they're critical or they're we make we people make up. My partner's making me do this. They're not making you do anything. They're not making bigamous you monogamous. You can literally do what you want. You just there's just consequences. It's not making It's all a choice. Mhm. So, anyway, anything we react to um we can stop and so the tool for me was if even if she was hugging me out of love, I'd feel just suffocated by it because my parents I was so my mom so was so needy and sucked the life out of me, right? So, I would just tell myself, hey, it's okay. She's not your mom. She's not trying to suffocate you. She She just loves you and has affection and really appreciates and cares about you so relax. Just just to get into the specifics there is that you talking to yourself in almost sort of a I notice something arises this emotion arises inside of me. I see it and then I begin to have a dialogue with myself about what that means. Yes, I yeah, having a dialogue with the part of myself that's reacting. Mhm. We have I love you know, Gestalt therapy and I love these um uh what's his name? Rempel. I love these I love looking at ourselves as parts. I so I think I think of I think of like there's a CEO. Mhm. Right? That's just your That's just the your most balanced stable self but what happens is some part of yourself takes over. So, in this case it's like the the the the wounded child, right? I'll try not to say inner child but the wounded child who who who is like oh, this is familiar. Mhm. I better stop this from happening, right? And then your executive function, your CEO, your admin as you say, says, hey, it's okay. I got this. You can relax. She's not your mom. Mhm. You know, she's just She just notice just that that arises and step in. This is something I've been thinking about more. I'm doing my first sort of big pass through therapy um and I've done a lot of time doing mindfulness. Right. But I actually found that a strong mindfulness practice caused me to let go of emotions before I actually looked at where they came from. That ability to sort of notice something arises and go, okay, just release and allow. That's fine. And I was very very practiced with that. It feels to me it feels like windscreen wipers. So, my practice uh from Shinzen Young is uh see, hear, feel. So, I would swipe left to do see, I would swipe right to do hear and I would swipe down to do feel. And that's the way it would feel in my mind. It's like nothing's happening, right? It's just the way that I'd come to kind of I love that. feel it I love that. That's really good. That's really good. and um what I noticed and what I've noticed since since spending a bit more time trying to integrate emotions and thinking about where patterns come from and and stuff like that is that the mindfulness practice was fantastic at making me more effective but because it allowed me the the emotions sort of flowed through me like a a filter or something like that. It there was um less resistance. They just came up came up and went out. I never asked the question, why does this emotion continue to come up? That's it. That's it. I I love what you said and this speaks to like it doesn't actually matter what you do. So, whether you're doing re-parenting or you're doing see, hear, feel. Is that what it see, hear, feel? Um what you're doing is you're widening the space between the the and your response. Correct. Mindfulness gap. Right. Correct. So so whatever version of that you do or whatever That's why like people argue over what method's better. Like literally any method that works is good enough, right? For you. If it's working, just keep doing it. So what you're saying is a great example of the tools. So the three steps then are the deep intensive experiences, Mhm. uh the um weekly or regular accountability, and the tools in the moment. Give me one more tool that you found that's been high value for you. Couple of these tools I love. One is is uh the first tool One is another version of of widening the space between stimulus and response is I can if I can recognize So I feel like anytime I get anytime something goes wrong, it's like an opportunity to learn about yourself. So I can recognize that if I'm starting to get uh anxious about something or upset about something, especially in a conversation or dialogue with someone, I feel maybe misunderstood, right? Often maybe I'll feel might feel misunderstood. And then I'll try I'll keep trying to drive the point into them to make sure they get it. And all it does is irritate them and then I feel more misunderstood and then I get more like, you know, abrasive with trying to make this point and it's just a horrible sequence. So I can see, oh, I'm feeling this sort of uh like tightness in my heart and this um in sort of this electricity in my wrist and that's my sign before my mind even knows it that I'm starting to get anxious about feeling misunderstood. So then what I'll do is I'll just whatever I'm in that, I'll just pause, and I'll take a break for 1 second. Say I'm on the phone, I'll say, "Hold on 1 second, I'll be right back." I'll walk away. I'll I say correct the lie. I'll correct the lie with the truth. Hey, like you're not being misunderstood. They probably understand you and it's it's all good. Just like maybe understand them. Cool. Then I pick up the phone and say, "Sorry about that. So what were you saying?" Or if I'm in a conver Same in the conversation here. I'm like I'm step away to go to the restroom. Let's say I'm in a conversation I can't leave. Like we're here in this podcast, right? Um I think to my head I'll just switch my position and I'll think new moments and over here I'm just There's a new moment over here. I can be a new person. It's reframing a little bit. Yeah, so Isn't that funny that that that relates so similarly to what you were doing in the game, but it's like an internal reframing as opposed to an external reframing? Yeah. Looking to create this different sense for me that I feel this way as opposed to how I want someone else to observe it. Right. The difference is you're When you're when you're doing this to yourself, you're in on the manipulation, right? Yeah, you know the magician's trick. Right. And going back to what you were saying about you asked a question earlier which we didn't get to about relationships and the game and is is this stuff okay to do in a relationship? I think any form of manipulation where the other person isn't aware of the game and the end goals is spiritually wrong. Mhm. Okay, was there a final modality that you liked from that one? From the third Oh yeah yeah there's another one that It's my favorite thing. Like we could do Let's just make a note to do a whole podcast on in the future. Absolutely. Uh it's uh nonviolent communication. Do you know that? Nope. Mhm. Oh man, it's a great Let's Let's I'll I'll do like a 1-minute thing and then We can dig in. Don't research it. Let's do a whole thing Okay. Like just as a useful tool to teach people. Um it's it's literally the greatest thing. It's an every idea principle that's radical. So first of all, the problem with nonviolent communication is it's a horrible name. If you're on a date, you know, you meet someone at on Riot, you know, you meet someone at Riot. You propose a date of nonviolent communication. What is your set point violent communication? What are you It sounds like something for like a like a like a like something for like violent offenders. Um but uh so and then the book by Marshall Rosenberg is incredibly boring. I literally couldn't finish the book. Like I couldn't finish it. But uh but he does have like a audio kind of program. I think it's billed as an audio book. There's a There's a picture of a hand holding a peace sign on it. First 20 minutes are really boring and then it gets revolutionary. But so it's a system of communication that as he would say violence is when we are trying to criticize, judge, control, make right and wrong, punishment reward, or diagnosis. Like this is what's wrong with you. This is why you're doing that. And as anyone who's ever been in a business or personal relationship knows, once you start even if you're right, once you start criticizing, accusing, judging, the other person gets defensive and the conversation doesn't go well. So so what this It's a form of communication that's really really simple to learn. We could do the discussion. Everyone will be experts, but it's hard to do and resist our impulses to like start start start defending ourselves or blaming others. Um and it allows somebody it honors the what's alive in someone else. So it honors what's alive in someone else. So as an example, if you're in a relationship and your partner says, "Hey, you don't pay enough attention to me." And you could say, "Wait, what do you mean I don't pay enough of attention? We were together on Tuesday, we were Wednesday, we woke up and had breakfast in the morning on Thursday. We just like went to Sedona for the weekend. Like literally what are you talking about?" That's not honoring what's alive in them. That's, you know, defending and making them wrong. So NVC would be like would be saying, "It sounds like you're upset." You're just like, "Yeah, I'm upset." It sounds like maybe like you need more connection. Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. I need more connection. And so for you, what are some things that maybe we could do that would like bring more connection to our lives? I'd love that, too. Yeah, you know, it would be nice if we could just do this. And then you can say, "Well, that's I don't know if I have the time to do that that just cuz it won't work right now. But what if instead, as soon as I finish this project, we do that?" Oh, that would be amazing. Right? Like Isn't that a much beautiful more beautiful way to relate? Mhm. Well, get back to talking to Neely in 1 minute, but first I need to tell you about Nomatic. Nomatic make the best luggage on the planet. This travel pack backpack is a complete game changer. If you haven't tried properly well-engineered backpacks and luggage, it can change your life. The team at Nomatic make the most functional, durable, and innovative backpacks, bags, luggage, accessories, and more, all backed by a lifetime warranty. Whether it's for travel, photography, or everyday use, Nomatic has some of the best gear available. Best of all, Nomatic has a lifetime warranty on all of its pieces. So if anything breaks in any of the pieces that you have during the entire life of the product, they will fix it for free. So this is the last backpack that you'll ever have to buy. And I'm not the only one who thinks that. Nomatic products have thousands of five-star reviews from real customers that all love their gear. Right now, you can get a 20% discount off everything site-wide by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to nomatic.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's nomatic.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. One of my favorite things to do with criticism for the podcast if someone says um you haven't had enough people from X perspective, opinion, viewpoint on. If it's someone that I think deserves a response, a lot of the time I'll say, "Interesting piece of feedback. Who would you suggest?" Like who do you think would be really good from whatever it is? And it almost always neutralizes any of the antagonism that you see online. And I think it's because so little communication that we are used to now is done in a collaborative way. And you can have that sort of adversarial antagonistic relationship bleed into your relationship, too. Like your your intimate relationship because you want to be right. And if you see that your partner is misviewing the world and reality in some way, you're going to think, "Well, if if I can just get them to see the truth, my truth, your which may not be the truth at all, obviously." Uh and even if you do get them to see your side, that's not their perspective. Their perspective is their truth. That is what they're seeing. Uh so yeah, that's very interesting. You just nailed it. That's it. Their perspective their truth. Like the their kind of what's true is they're thinking and feeling that, and you can honor that truth without ever making them right, Mhm. without ever saying that's that's happened or making that wrong. I would imagine that people probably have a concern about um for want of a better term, indulging a delusion. You know, this person maybe you are right and I have spent a ton of time with them recently. Some people would be scared that by not correcting that incorrect view of how they're seeing the world, that this person's going to continue to sort of see this uh non-representative perspective. Whether you do it or not, they'll always continue to see it. Mhm. Because it's just just a narrative. Like I think we all know if we've ever dated somebody who had real abandonment fears, that there's no amount of behavior on us that's going to change the way they feel about your lack of presence or not being abandoned. Like you know what I mean? You could be with them 7 hours a day and they're like, "Oh, you're not your you know, sorry, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week." And you check your phone once and they're like, "I just felt so disconnected when you did that. Why'd you check your phone like that?" And then you can decide, but if you just honor what's alive in them and you're and this keeps going on, it's a pattern, then you can have another discussion in a way just say, "Hey, I I love this and this is the thing that's challenging for me. Can we discuss it?" But we'll we'll we'll dive deep in NVC like because there's a little formula Mhm. that's it and there's a lot of radical thoughts attached to it that um that you can use to when the energy's coming at you to just charge it and also so you don't set someone off. It's I I can give you I'll give you some examples later where things like it literally just um uh created took a tense moment and created peace. That's awesome. I think a lot of people want that. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's great. All the ideas attached to it are just mind-blowing. So your other question was enmeshment, right? Um but let me ask you you said you were going through this therapy which is course or this It's uh I'm just doing therapy twice a week. And what's your what's your What are the things you're doing? Uh just talk therapy, classic psychotherapy. It's It's psychodynamically informed in some ways, I guess. Uh and I could probably lean into more of the psychodynamic stuff if I asked to. I could get on the couch and point in the other direction and do the things. Um and it's just the first time that I've ever done it consistently. So, it's been a a a bit of an eye-opener, I guess. Yeah, yeah, you um I'd be interested if you've ever done like one of those things like we're talking about like the Meadows or the Hoffman process or anything like that. I'd like to. Yeah, I think it'd be great. I think it'd like just to crack yourself open a little bit and like see what's there. Because what's your cuz it we were talking about parents and stuff like that. Like it you seem to have something where you're uh um uh I don't know. I don't like perceive you as having two parts of yourself that you're wrestling with. Like a very very analytical part that's trying to understand things and with this great weight and this other part of yourself that's just um emotional part that wants to be free. Yeah, I think I I I've done quite a lot of reflection on this and uh I realized I'm a way more sensitive person than I let myself believe for most of my 20s. So, I didn't like the idea of being sensitive or emotional. I was a club promoter for 15 years. This you know, leader of one of the biggest events companies in the UK. I'm stood on the front door of nightclubs. Everyone's cool. They're in VIP and they're wearing expensive watches and it's you know, like house music and hip-hop and bottle service and all the rest of it. Like that's not the place to very easily show your sensitive side. Plus, I think I had associated sensitivity with uh fragility and vulnerability and I didn't want to feel weak. I I wanted to be seen as a man. Uh you know, I was unpopular and a bit bullied in school and socially quite awkward until like probably my mid-20s to be honest. And then I think that meant that when I got into my 20s, I denied the sensitive aspect of myself. Uh and then it also another reason that I didn't do it is that it didn't fit with the way that I presented. So, male model, club promoter, DJ, reality TV person a couple of years later, also kind of sensitive, cries at Christmas movies, you know, kind of desperately wants connection and affection and attention and those two things didn't seem to make sense. And I wanted desperately to be understood by people. So, when there was discordance between what I felt and how I looked, I was prepared to nerf one of those so that it fitted in line with the other one. So, I think I denied the sensitive side of myself for a very long time. That's something that I'm still working through at the moment. And the other side, so that's that's the emotional side that I'm trying to integrate. And on the other side, the analytical side is uh just straight-up fear of lack of safety. And if I can understand the exact process of how to gain muscle or improve my health or be more productive or become successful or make money or do all the rest of those things, the chaos of uncertainty out there in the world is brought under my control. That's why I'm such a fan of intentionalism and agency because that gives me control over the path that my life is going forward. I'm no longer at the mercy of the whims of whatever the world is going to throw at me. I have control. And these two things are in conflict, right? Because not exclusively, but much of it is in conflict because I want to embrace emotions and have a nature whilst also being the author of my own life and the architect of the direction that I'm moving forward. And I think that for a lot of people, especially guys, but also girls, too, this is a an odd duality to kind of admit. I have sensitivities and emotions and and needs and I want to be seen and I want to be like affectionately validated by the people that I care about and people that I respect. And also, I don't want to I I want to author the direction that this goes in. So, it's kind of like uh these two things are in orbit with each other. Yeah, and do you think it do you think it's control or the illusion of control? I don't know what the distinction would be. Right. I mean, you know, as as an example, I think a lot of people who are who have super strict diet philosophies, in a lot of cases maybe grew up in a household that's a little bit out of control. I'm not saying this is you, but but uh but they feel like, "Well, I can't control this outside world for whatever world, but if I control exactly what I eat, then I I feel safe." I'm just putting that as a possible reason. thankfully around the health thing, it's it's not that much of a big deal. But one of the areas that it is more of a big deal is with regards to success and validation and sort of being requited by the world around me, offering something so that I am needed. Not quite the same as being wanted, but it's functionally pretty similar. It's kind of a losing game. In fact, it's an out of control game because how people respond to you is out of your control. And so, you're almost giving them your agency. So, I think we know a trauma's at work in something when what we want is giving us the opposite. Right? So, if you're saying, "Well, I need to control these things to be safe." Are we really safe? And are we giving away our control by being dependent on these things and dependent on other people's outcomes and things like that? So, so enmeshment. Yeah, enmeshment. But then the other thing I wanted to ask you was um well, the emotional part of it. And I'm just kind of guessing, so you can just tell me correct me if I'm wrong or right here. But like what I was picking up is that growing up in your household, I think it was just you and your mom, you said. No, and dad. I guess my thought was in was there any version of like there wasn't space in your household for whatever your needs are. That would be correct. I think I subjugate my requirements and my desires in order to keep the peace, in order to make everybody else okay. Like it doesn't matter about me. I'll happily be unhappy in order to not make someone else unhappy. And what was the okay you needed in your household? Just to not have I It's not that this was what was needed, but functionally what ended up happening was that I wouldn't make a fuss about things that I needed, especially emotionally. Boom. Well, that's it. That you did that that's where it's coming from. That That other stuff are just symptoms of that. You were taught early on that your emotions you're making a quote fuss is a burden to other people or it has negative effects on the household. And so, not making a fuss and keeping that in is your wiring. Right? That's the way you're wired. So, it wasn't that being a bouncer and then a male model and uh um reality show, this is what I had the mask I had to wear. That was a mask that was comfortable and familiar to you. So, when the job called for it, there you are to put it on. enmeshment enmeshment, yep. Tell me. What is Yeah, we'll hit I'll tell you what. We'll Okay, we'll do enmeshment and then if we want, we can do the the brain thing and then we can wrap there. Sound good? Yeah, okay. Right. So, it's it's interesting like enmeshment is such an important concept um and so few people still know it. Uh which is enmeshment is the opposite of abandonment and that's why we don't recognize it. So, if you're abandoning, we all know what abandonment I think we know what abandonment is, which is there's an absent parent, but abandonment also is when a parent is emotionally absent. They can just be there present for you all the time, but just like being not there emotionally, whether it's cuz of addiction where they're just shut down emotionally themselves where they just or are tough. So, so and uh and don't show love or don't show emotions. This is what you're working on so you can be a great not abandoning parent. Uh so, so so in abandonment, a parent's not there to meet your needs, whether they're emotional or physical. There's the short way of saying it. And in enmeshment, what do you think that is then? An over-reliance on each other for emotional needs and support? Well, the child needs to rely on the parent. That's healthy parent Healthy parenting is the child relies on the parent for their emotional and physical needs and they get them met, right? And so, the enmeshment is when the child's role is to meet the parent's needs. Here are some examples, right? And so, we don't recognize this because abandonment is disempowering. Like at least those self I'm like if I mattered, that parent would still be If I mattered, they'd care or they'd be here. Sometimes if we're like four or five and a parent passes away, uh and we're too young, maybe three or two whatever, we're too young, we can still take responsibility for that. You know, there are a lot of things that might whatever the parent's intention is, that's the way we receive it. So, so enmeshment is examples are um so, examples in which children meet their parents' needs could be one is uh a parent who's really depressed and you're trying to cheer them up. I remember interviewing Jay Leno for Rolling Stone and his mom was super depressed and he was always trying to cheer her up and thus he becomes a comedian, right? Um so, so sign of abandonment sign of abandonment is you know, feeling sorry for yourself. Sign of enmeshment is feeling sorry for the parent. Uh so, a highly anxious parent. So, an example is if a parent is saying if a parent says, "Come home at this time." because they feel like that's a good boundary to set, sounds like healthy parenting. The parent's saying, "Come home at this time because I'm going to worry about you." That's making your worry their problem. And then the same behavior can be sort of enmeshing. So, highly anxious, highly depressed, um a lot of times a parent makes in my case makes a child your surrogate therapist. Right? The parent's coming to you and complaining and talking about their life and you're sort of filling the role of a therapist or of an emotional partner. Right? If you're So, you could have a dad or a mom when I'll give you a quick story of this. When you're when you're when you're when they they make you their best friend or they make you like something that's reflected on their self-esteem, daddy's little girl, mommy's little man, whatever it is. This is enmeshment. Remember, I was doing makeup for a TV thing and the makeup artist was saying she'd never been in a healthy relationship and she just like at some point gets was her partner gets too needy and she breaks away. Like, "Oh, interesting. I bet you were enmeshed." And I tell her what it is. She rolls up her sleeve and has a tattoo that says daddy's little girl. So, like So, basically what it is, when you're forced to parentify or adult yourself too soon, right? It could be just you're taking care of the family, you're feeling that role, or you're managing their divorce and making the peace in the family. You lose a part of your childhood. And so, when you're experienced love again, you're like, "Oh, no. Oh, no. I'm not doing this again. This is familiar. I'm I'm not going to be free." And so, consequently, people who are enmeshed and tell me if this is your pattern at all, they'll choose They see the role It's hard for them to have true independence because they see their role is to help and fix. So, they date projects. They date people they can help and fix cuz if I can't help and fix you, what good am I? That's my role, right? And then, what happens after a while is the they realize they can't help and fix the partner or the partner's too needy. They get resentful. They start to break away or or or cheat or act out in some other way or just get resentful. So, that's How do people unpick enmeshment? Undoing enmeshment? Yeah. Yeah, in adult life. Yeah, I think like Sure. I think the steps are First is the And this is goes for anything. First, you need the self-awareness, right? Number one is you need to say You need the self-awareness saying, "This is how I raised. This is how I respond." Self-awareness is the hardest step of everything because when we're self-aware of [ __ ] we usually keep doing it. Then we just beat ourselves up afterwards, right? So, the next step is what we talked about earlier, something some sort of release, some sort of, you know, deep therapeutic work where you just release that energy. And then, the other steps were kind of what we talked about doing the doing the reparenting piece. And I think there's a forgiveness piece. People put it too soon, but I think that forgiving yourself and forgiving the other person and letting go of that energy. So, I think we can sort of I forget exactly what the way I think about it. There's four or five steps of healing which starts with awareness and sort of the release, the accountability, and the reparenting, and the forgiveness. It's so interesting, man. You know, looking at why we behave the way that we do. Again, as someone who's such a a huge fan of being the author and architect of my own direction and then realizing that there's these patterns, maybe even pre-verbal, maybe even things that you can't remember that are marionetting you from, you know, beyond the infant grave. Yeah, it's like parental, it's cultural, it's, you know, genetic. It's like it's like it's like all these strings. And I do think one of the goals of life is to recognize the strings and cut them and be free. Mhm. I think a lot of people, again, especially guys, are struggling with authenticity, with working out who they are. Like, I think a lot of people would say something to the extent of, "I don't really know who I am." Yeah, and and you don't. You you know, you you can always keep learning. And I think I don't like the authenticity By the way, there's I do understand authenticity in terms of like who I'm presenting on the outside is who I'm like how who I am on the inside with appropriate boundaries, you know? But, I think when I talk to someone who's saying, "I'm trying to find my authentic self," like, man, that's just like it's like a it's like a mental game. How are you ever going to find your authentic self? Like, how are you going to know which part of you is authentic because you and I, for example, been through many phases in our life. And each time it felt very authentic, right? Right now, we're relating authentically and I can only hope that 4 years from now we listen to this conversation and I'm like, "God, What the [ __ ] is I doing? is I doing?" to talk about. So, I have another way I think about it, which is because it's easier to quantify, so you'll appreciate this. Right? How do you measure authenticity, right? What's the So, the creative self versus the destructive self. So, the destructive self is, you know, harmful to myself, harmful to others, making a mess of things, right? Breaking relationships, beating myself up, versus the creative self, which is good to myself, good to others, putting great things out in the world. And so, I just think of my is the behavior if I can quantify creative destructive, it's an easier way that I can um find a path of certainty or a more certain path. There's no certain path, but find a more clear path to move on. My favorite question around that is what would you tomorrow want you today to do? What would you tomorrow want you today to do? You have this decision in front of you, whether or not to eat the cookie or not to eat the cookie, whether or not to sleep with that girl or not to sleep with that girl, whether or not to say this particular thing in this particular way or reply to that tweet. What would you tomorrow want you today to do? I like that. And I like the perspective. Yeah, tomorrow's easier than thinking at the end of your life. What would your parent hard. It's way too hard. What what's going to be on Do you really want this on your epigraph? Like, I don't [ __ ] know, dude. Like, I'm I I I don't know when I'm going to die. I I don't know what next week's going to bring. But, you can quite easily think, "I'm going to wake up tomorrow with this decision in front of me that I'm considering making right now." Yeah, it's a way of asking yourself really like, "Is this After this, am I going to have shame or not?" Correct. It's regret minimization, but it's done on a time scale that's sufficiently tight in a feedback loop way that you can probably make it work. Yeah, I like that. I think that I think that's a really I think that's a really good It's that goes to that list of tools, right? Like, just having 10 nice tools that work for you and doing these other things like is is awesome. Um and so, I'll save your last question and then we'll wrap cuz I don't want to be conscious on uh um the exhaustion that which uh I not exhaustion, but I really feel like um I don't know how long we've been talking, but I I I I really We're approaching 2 hours now. Okay, I think that's plenty. Okay. for for everybody else. I could go on talk to you forever, but Yeah, yeah. But, I want to have mercy on the people listening to the 1.5 speed on their podcast app. Um that uh that um you were talking about the brain your other question. I think that I've got to other questions. I want to I'm such a storyteller that I always want to close all the loops and try to work the things we don't get to. But, um But, about the way you were asking about the way our brain is wired and the pruning and everything, right? And um And my caveat is if this is not scientifically correct, then consider it a metaphor in a useful way of thinking. The fact is um Again, I hear people on the podcast and they always throw out research and sometimes you challenge them and ask where it's from, but literally like most studies aren't replicable, you know? And and and and everything like we we have a we have a feeling and a thought and then we look for facts to back it up. We don't Most people Almost no one works the other way around and the very few people who do are really amazing, right? But, we just look for facts to back up our our our the way we already feel and think about things, right? So, um so, these are the this is my rationalization for my philosophy of how we're wired. Uh which again is true if you read the right articles like everything else, right? Um I think By the way, I think the world needs a healthy sense of doubt about everything. Mhm. You know, I think uncertainty is another form of freedom, too. Yeah, it's it's difficult for that to not tumble into cynicism, though. I think a lot of people have confused appropriate doubt for I can just be as cynical as I want. Cynicism is a position. I think it's spirit The other side of it is a spiritual position to say, "I don't know." Mhm. You know, I'm not sure. But, I hear what you're saying is really important to you and that's something you really believe in those studies did those things. That's really interesting. Right? Cynicism is just saying and and it it it is is is is like denial, right? Believing is acceptance. And I think saying "I don't know." There's a line that Did I creative act book with Rick Rubin and he has this line which I love and I think about all the time of connected detachment. What's that mean? Connected detachment to me means I'm detaching from all my I'm connected in a way that I care and I'm relational with you, but I'm detached from whatever my thoughts and opinions and the way I think things should be so I can stay connected but detached from all these layers of stories we're talking about. That's the way I mean, I think he was talking about a different context in the book, but I love that idea of connected detachment that that's a goal because it's easy to just detach. I don't know, so I'm not going to get involved. But, versus connected detachment like I really care and whatever the outcome is, we don't know. It could be good or bad. Mhm. Okay. we could be giving the best advice possible, but someone it could lead to something bad for someone, lead to something good for someone else. We don't know. Um so, anyway, long prologue. So, so, we were talking about the way And this is the way I think about trauma and this is the way I think about behavior and this is the way I think about myself, which is, you know, we're born with certain predispositions and, you know, genetic uh um predispositions. And I talked to one of the leading geneticists who said most things are most a lot of gene expressions are turned on and off by the environment itself. So, you might have the gene, for example, for being a sociopath, uh but maybe some trauma has to happen to switch that on, whatever. So, we're born with certain predispositions and uh um resiliences resilience. Um and then, we land in this family and and uh and basically we have our brain like all the neurons it's going It's been a little while, so I might get some of the facts wrong. But, all the all the neurology of the brain is there. All the neurons are there, but the connections aren't made. So, very early on, the brain starts wiring connections at a really rapid rate, right? So, you're So, so, most of our a lot of stuff happened pre-memory, but we but the pattern remains the same with our parents. So, like we we're we're in bed and and and we and our parents have maybe a cried out philosophy, right? So, they have a cried out philosophy means we're crying and we're hungry, but our and our needs aren't met and that after a certain amount of time becomes a pattern, which is no one's going to meet my needs. I need to meet them myself. And these are the people who are afraid to ask for help, let's say. So, so, for the first 3 years, the brain is like putting these neural connections together at a rapid huge rate. They're just they're just the the I think the 3-year-old brain has more neural connections than the adult brain. And after 3, this process and again, roughly this process called pruning takes place where the connections you don't need start disappearing. And then this brain where you built all these connections, removed what you didn't need, now becomes the prison you live in. And so can you start to recognize that this thought, this belief, this behavior I have was wired in because of these certain things, and now I can make the choice going back to agency and control to say how can I can rewire this with these tools that every time Here's a tool and and being compassionate with ourselves because this was wired in for 17 or 18 years, so it's going to take a little while to to to to get the new behavior going and and sometimes you'll backslide and fall back and get cynical and say what's the point and and just if you're patient with yourself and you're consistent, you can really really change your beliefs about yourself and the way you think and I think that's one of the purposes of life. What's your advice for people who want more self-compassion in that way? A lot of the people listening to Here's a tool for that. Here's a tool for that. I think one thing we do is when you were saying earlier about being a bouncer and you were saying or you're saying I'm not someone who like expresses I forget what we said but it was I statement like I don't really express myself emotionally, right? I'm not the person who does that. I think anytime you're making an I statement um you can actually correct that cuz that's not who you are. You're you're you you can say is expressing myself emotionally wasn't something that was encouraged or I felt safe doing in my household. Consequently, I don't do it now. Mhm. And then you're not owning that anymore. The lack of identification there. Right. So so in the same way something I did is I realize say I'm I'd always say I'm parking or something. I was when I moved to LA I was a horrible driver and I'd always hit the curbs. My friends called me Curby because I always hit the curbs when I was driving. So we'd drive and hit the curb and be like, "Oh god, I'm such an idiot." Right? So as soon as I catch myself talking to myself in a non-compassionate way I'll stop um and I'll literally imagine throwing the thought out of my head. I sometimes even make the gesture with my hand of throwing the thought out of my head. I'll correct it with the with the truth which is you're just learning to drive and you hit the curb and that's okay. And so when we talked about re-parenting earlier most of us who don't who lack self-compassion were being the parents to ourselves that we had whether that parent was critical Again, maybe it's for the right reasons. I'm not saying your parents are doing the best they can. We're not blaming the parents. We're just looking at these as variables that make us who we are. There's no blame. Um but so a critical parent, they might want the best for you. Again, I was reading Mozart's letter with his father and oh my god, his father is a [ __ ] You got to read their night. His father's just always criticizing for everything. He's always doing everything wrong. He's always catastrophizing. And Mozart's even like, "Hey hey dad, don't worry about this." The dad's like, "You tell me not to worry, but I need to worry because you're like this and you're going to do this." And so consequently, um we talk to ourselves like the parent we had. And the the um workaround is we want to talk to ourselves like the parent we needed, not the parent we had. So self-compassion is talking to yourself like the parent you needed, not the parent you had. Yeah, any inner voice I think is usually the echo unless you've done a ton of self work is almost always the echo of an outer voice that you once had. I've got this great story about Churchill that I need to tell you. Yeah, tell me. In September 1893, Churchill was admitted on his third attempt to the Sandhurst Military College. He wrote to his father, "I was so glad to be able to send you the good news on Thursday." His father, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer and leader of the House of Commons, wrote back a week later, "You should be ashamed of your slovenly, happy-go-lucky, harum-scarum style of work. Never have I received a really good report of your conduct from any headmaster or tutor. Always behind, incessant complaints of a total want of application to your work. You have failed to get into the 60th Rifles, the finest regiment in the army in the army. You have imposed on me an extra charge of some 200 pounds per year. Do not think that I'm going to take the trouble of writing you long letters after every failure you commit and undergo. I no longer attach the slightest weight to anything you may say. If you cannot prevent yourself from leading the idle, useless, unprofitable life that you had during your school days, you will become a mere social wastrel, one of the hundreds of public school failures. You will degenerate into a shabby, unhappy, and futile existence. You will have to bear the blame for all such misfortunes. Your mother sends her love." Churchill was 19. Wow. By the way, you read that so well that I I almost felt the heat, the sting of the discipline. Did you ever date with your with your father disciplinarian? Uh no, mum was more the disciplinarian, I think. Yeah, but you read you read it so sternly. I felt it. I think anyone that's been held to high standards I certainly was held to high standards and that's that's something that resonates. The reason that that story sort of really hits me is you know you've got maybe one of the greatest greatest leader of the 20th century being told a happy-go-lucky, harum-scarum style of work, you're going to be a mere social wastrel. Like I no longer attach even the slightest sense of honesty or truth to anything that you're ever going to tell me. And uh makes me feel sad for Churchill, you know, whatever it was June 30th, 1945, V-Day and I bet that even after defeating the Nazis, he probably still didn't feel like he was enough. And this is the next book I'm writing. So I might use that letter in there if that's cool. Absolutely. It's okay with Mr. Churchill. But thank you for that because literally the next book I'm writing and this maybe we'll wrap here is called the it's called the power of low self-esteem. I love that title. Yeah. Wow. And it's really about how these A it's how these great figures had really low self-esteem and we do great things cuz we it's okay to not feel like you're enough and let that inspire you to do good to do great things, Wow. Dude, I love the title. I absolutely adore the title of that. And so maybe the greatest self-compassion we can have for ourself is being compassionate for ourself when we don't have self-compassion for ourself. Meaning meaning and meaning that like listen, we're never in that control over everything as we're saying earlier. We're never going to be perfect. We'll never get rid of all our trauma. We're never going to always love ourselves. We're never going to feel like we fit in and belong. And and accepting that there is like that that there's a reason for that and it's great to sometimes feel you don't belong feel like you don't belong cuz maybe you're nicer to people cuz you want to belong. It's great to feel maybe like you haven't done enough cuz you're going to do more and improve the world. So all these things instead of striving for for perfection, we can see the gifts in them. Dot dot dot and that's okay. I think that's it's very interesting. I've I've spent so much time over the last probably three or four years being obsessed by the price that elite performers pay to be the person that you admire. Uh you know, Elon Musk was on Lex's show about six months ago and he you know, he's talking about richest man in the world, doing robot dances on stage in Japan and sending cars into space and stuff. And Lex asks sort of what's the texture of your mind like? And Elon thinks for a second and he says "My mind is a storm. Most people would think that they want to be me, but they don't know. They don't understand. And I I'm obsessed with that question about the price that people that we admire pay to be the person that we admire." That's exactly it. What you said about E- Elon can go back to having empathy. So some people might say like what's he doing on Twitter? This is toxic that whatever it is. Some people like whatever your opinions may be, you can say, "Okay, here's a person who needs to be in chaos and intensity just to feel normal." And he's replicating that and it's not about anything else. Neil Strauss, ladies and gentlemen. Neil, I really appreciate you. It's been so great to catch up. It's been a long time coming. What should people expect from you over the next however long? What are you working on? Um uh Yeah, then I've just I've just did do it just uh the next new books. I'm really into the we didn't even talk about these uh podcasts where I kind of find missing people or Mhm. Mhm. I love them. Where should people go? What's that one called? Uh the new the new one's called To Die For. It's like about a Russian uh seducer, a woman who was trained in seduction but the reverse side of it to like get the secrets from men and sometimes kill them. Wow. and what's fascinating by the way with with which is so when I interviewed her Uh she hot? Um You have to watch it. But uh but um she in this case like anything else it doesn't matter. It's how you use what you have. Let's say but a lot of things she was learning in like the early 2000s in the FSB, the kind of successor to the KGB, was like exactly what the pickup artists were doing at the same time. Wow, she's the female Neil. Yeah, it was fascinating. But more vicious and deadly. Yeah. That's awesome. So people can check that one out. What's that called? Uh To Die For. For and you've done some other To Live and Die in LA was just like a missing Again, like I think I just followed my Whatever I'm excited and curious about, I just follow. There's no brain It was just someone missing in our neighborhood and myself and uh Ingrid, my wife at the time, and a couple neighbors. Mike, who you should have on the show, Mike Einziger from Incubus. He's a great, brilliant guy. Him and his wife were our neighbors. Ann Marie, we uh just tried to help and it And so so uh that was this To Live and Die in LA podcast. People should also follow you on Instagram. I very much appreciate your uh pithy aphorisms on there. My favorite one from last year which I must have repurposed a gazillion times, "Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments." And that by the way is a quote from a therapist in the game. That's fine. Yeah, yeah. You you you were the one that reposted It's such a good line and we'll close to just cuz it's a good thing to think about. Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. It's so so deep. Neil, Neil, I appreciate you. Thank you, man. Thanks, Chris. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode with Neil, you will love my three-hour-long conversation with Jordan Peterson which you can watch right here.