The Tree of Mankind from FTDNA (Mike Sager)

ok ladies and gentlemen make things me great pleasure to introduce our next speaker someone whose appearance here has been much anticipated by the genetic genealogy community and that is Mike Seder of from Family Tree DNA now Mike might never expected to be in charge of the tree of mankind a passion project for Mike and he has done such a wonderful job putting together at the tree of mankind and he totally of all the people on the planet has the greatest overview of how mankind has evolved and branched into different branches over the course of time so I'm really looking for this presentation please welcome Mike singer alright thank you very much ok so today I want to talk a variety of topics the tree of mankind not necessarily the mtDNA tree but the tree in general maybe some tips and tricks to interpreting the tree how ft DNA is building the tree and a little bit of history behind it and I want to touch on some of the more notable samples that mtDNA has produced recently so I'm gonna try and stay away from a real basic stalk but I do want to cover a couple things first so the y chromosome is passed down unchanged from father to son because of this we are able to trace back an entire line all the way back up to essentially the root of mankind so what we're able to do is if no other data exists that I could take every male in this room sequence them and then build a tree and tell you exactly how everybody is related to everybody else about how far back in time and about how closely you are related so yDNA is very unique in that aspect so just a little bit about it the y-chromosome is currently about 57 million base pairs long which may seem like a lot but it's actually the second smallest chromosome behind comes I'm 21 again passed down father to son when we do wide sequencing we have to have something to compare sequences against so we have what is called a reference sequence there is actually nothing special or unique about it it's just a universally accepted sequence which everybody uses to compare against these are updated regularly because we don't actually know the entire sequence of the white chromosome or any chromosome for that matter there are regions that are difficult to access very repetitive stuff like that so new references are being updated all the time the latest one was in December of 2013 one before it was 2009 so we may have a new one coming up soon that actually doesn't have much to do with genealogy because again the advancements on the reference are usually going to be more fringe elements that we aren't using for genealogy just a basic structure of the white chromosome here that this grey part is a very large portion which basically we don't know what's in the reference sequence this these parts in blue up here are called the euchromatin and this is basically where all of the the great stuff for genetic genealogy and the tree building comes from so it's actually about half of the chromosome that we are using so snip names the information contained here the there's the first part when you see something like our m269 the first letter is always a prefix that is basically whoever named or discovered a particular mutation in these examples B Y is Family Tree DNA that's what we use for our snip discoveries we did switch to F T when Big Y 700 came around and we basically did this because we're up to about a quarter million variants and getting a have a group of jby two three eight seven one three it can be a little bit cumbersome so this next part is just a sequential numbering be y 10,000 is simply the 10,000th BY marker that was named this here is the chromosomal location again the Y chromosome is about 57 million base pairs long and so B Y 10,000 simply exists at position 13 million 350 4622 so it's basically just the address of the mutation and then it also describes what the mutation actually is the ancestral base is a T and it mutates to an a this is just a sample of the naming entities so you may see a whole bunch of prefixes B y FG see why this is a non exhaustive list you can find this on on I SOG there's about half of them but there's anything from academics to citizen scientists looking at Big Y or other NGS data and then consumer genealogy companies like FG DNA and FTC so so typically the tree is built around the Big Y or next-gen sequencing data after we sequence a sample it goes through automated variant calling and imagining new snips are identified at this stage and Ft DNA names them usually within about 24 hours of a sample posting and then we post those nicknames online we can talk about that quite a bit but we are trying to get names out into the public because there used to be a lot bigger problem in the paths of double and triple naming a lot of our snips were being renamed by other companies other interpretive companies or by other analysts and it causes a lot of confusion so we just wanted to try and cut that down still a bit of a problem today but not nearly as bad samples have been placed onto the FT DNA haplotype before I have really had a chance to look at them and then at that time matching variants and equivalent breakers are identified and tree structure is reviewed and I'll go on to bet about that here in a minute so some people seem to have a bit of difficulty interpreting the tree one of the things I like to suggest is to view mutations as actual men's names because in all actuality in all practicality that's exactly what it is be wide ten thousand had to have existed and occurred in one man in the past and one man only so you can just view all of this clunky information as say mark an example of that in use so here we know that Bob is a descendant of Tom and then we know that Tom and Bob are descendants of all these men here but you'll see all these men here are stacked up into the same line or the same block these are called Philo equivalents and that simply means that we do not know the order in which they occurred so everybody tested to date either has all of them or none of them so now say a tester comes and he tests negative for bill Charles and Arthur so what does that tell us that tells us that we know bill Charles and Arthur occurred more recently while everybody else occurred first more distantly so then we can update the tree and we know that bill Charles and Arthur down here in this block and and the others remain up top and so more testing may shed light onto the order of these but that's just typically how equivalent breakers are dealt with so a little bit of history on the tree itself in the 90s and early 2000s there was a lot of different researchers academics pursuing their own trees and phylogeny naming snips their own and that led to a whole bunch of confusion within the academic community so a lot of them came together and decided to form what's called the y-chromosome consortium in 2002 and this was in an effort to unify the tree and make something more universally accepted so this first tree contained 245 variants and 153 branches haplogroups a through are are defined mr. t over there you're not known about yet half the group s has not yet discovered and actually there was a little bit of a caveat Kaplan group T is known about but it simply resides here at the root of half a group k so typically a new branch is not added to the tree unless it is viewed in two men thus the term haplogroup anything else if it's just observed in one person it's viewed as a singleton however this initial tree they just wanted to gain some structure so that where singleton branches added and so have a group T actually does exist here but as a singleton so it was not named yet okay all branches today maintain what is called monophyly which is which simply means that they all share a common ancestor so if you look here and have a group II you'll see that everybody in E has the same common ancestor and that is e the root of e the only exception to that is the oldest haplogroup which is haplogroup a and because of the nature of what we keep discovering older and older branches many people in haplogroup a are more closely related to people in haplogroup r than they are to other people in haplogroup a so that's kind of an interesting way to look at it haplogroup a is as old as everything else down here combined and yet we know the least about it and haplogroup a double zero which is the oldest Y chromosome that we know is even older and we know even less about it so there there also several interior nodes here that would they would later go on to be discovered but not by the YCC you'll see here under K there are many branches there's P o in own and several singleton branches so the internal structure grouping these is not yet known haplogroup naming in in 2002 they also came up with a system for nomenclature for the tree two main types and those two main types are still in use today the haplogroup by lineage which is what you're familiar with with our one b e1 a1 then that's still used by I SOG if you go there website and it's used by F T DNA but only internally it's it's useful for coating the structure of the tree and moving things around but it's it's a little bit more difficult for actually communicating lineages because it can change over time if we use that for some of the people that we have in haplit group J we'd have haplogroups that are 30 characters long and any change to the structure of the tree it'll change year after year the most commonly used one is this hat nomenclature permutation and so that's what you're more familiar with something like our m269 G in 201 those will never change regardless of how the tree structure changes are in 269 will always be armed 269 so there's less ambiguity and it's a little bit easier for the community to use I just thought this was interesting in in this example that they put out they show how to do a branch split and they showed here and have a group H what happens if in 52 and m69 split off well that actually did happen not too long ago but it was in the reverse order chem 69 is proven to be the parent of m-52 in 2003 two of the authors came up with a slight revision to it or an update to the YCC tree and in it they expressed their desire to resolve multi-fork asians into bifurcations and that's just simply a fancy way of saying that they are looking for this internal structure here to add branches to places where branches could exist they just haven't discovered them one example that they did find here was grouping haplogroups in and oh so they they they notated that one and then they notated R - R - was discovering that's a primary the Arabic haplogroup actually quite rare I'm still missing our haplogroups s and t and at this time the Kois an and ethiopian white chromosomes were believed to be the oldest but it would still be many years before we find y chromosomes that are hundreds of thousands of years older than or tens of thousands of years older than in these the next update wouldn't come for another five years and basically they doubled the size of the tree they went from 153 branches to 311 they went from 243 bearings to 599 and finally haplogroups s and T are documented and today no other new haplogroups have been discovered they did add a couple of intermediary branch of CF and IJ is finally joined but they would they would never find any of the resulting structure that consumer genealogy would later discoveries such as I and J will wind up being grouped with K and an H will be grouped with ijk and there are several other interior nodes that actually genealogy will solve rather than academia so the YCC ceases to update in 2005 ft DNA released its first tree which was basically a mirror of this ycc tree shortly after then within a couple months I saw updated a tree and they what their goal is was to kind of centralize the effort to make a standard where the YCC is no longer active in it archived ice on trees are readily available from 2006 all the way through today it's still being updated and at this point is when basically the genealogy community begins to outpace academia I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on this this is just some some graphics that show the growth of the tree over time and see it starts without a hundred snips a year 200 snips a year and we started getting to about a thousand a year May 2015 is probably about when I started a little bit before then I did and then we started really with the introduction of Big Y and other next-gen sequencing we're able to really grow the tree at a rapid pace and if we had today on here it'd be somewhere around 215 to 220 thousand variants on the tree as a graphic that shows the FT DNA branches over time as you can see were just over 25 I think if today was on there would be right around 27,000 branches so what the YCC was able to do in five years jumping from 153 to 311 we're doing that easily weekly really about every every other day or every couple days where we're adding that same kind of growth so the Big Y 700 was a new product that we came out there our goal was to sequence as much of the Y chromosome as we possibly could for a validation of this we chose 88 samples most of these were we picked there's many different haplogroups as we could a double-0 are but then we also chose 11 samples from half a group jay-z s 17 16 which is Bennett Greenspan's haplogroup mtDNA estimates this to be about a thousand to fifteen hundred years old so what we wanted to do is we wanted to see what Big Y 700 uncover that 500 could not so we use snips that were called in a minimum of two samples and then we used amanda was one branch upstream at B y 101 as an out-group to eliminate variants above that level so what the original Big Y showed we found 16 variants and 7 branching points with the old one big wide 700 retained all 16 but it also in covered an additional 8 new variants which is coincidentally we're covering almost exactly 50% more the y chromosome and we got 50% more snips in just this branch 6 of these 8 proved to be equivalent to known branches and to prove to being new branching points one of these branching points if you look under zs 1724 we have s 5 s 6 and then b y 1 7 1 904 so we had three known lineages behind this we knew however that s5 and s6 were each other's true closest matches we know that because that hadn't actually been it and his son and and these are there's by1 seventh one group over here is i believe their second or third cousins but the old big y couldn't find a variant that would group them but Big Y 700 did uncover a variant that we called ft1 so now they have their own branch on the wide tree similarly under Xia 1716 what we thought were three lineages we had B Y 1 7 0 0 1 3 Ziya 1707 and then this lone man out here s 11 well we actually uncovered a variant that groups s lemon with this be Y 1 7 0 0 3 group so that is a new intermediary branch that we call ft 2 so I just had to include this graphic I think it's one of the the most beautiful graphics of the tree that that I've ever seen gives you a real nice perspective of saturation in certain haplit and others hamlin group R is young and in the in the white tree it's one of the youngest haplogroups that there are yet obviously it's the most well defined well tested and here a zero as old as everything else here barely gets an honorable mention up here but you see that our I and J really dominate the at least that the growth that has been driven by genetic genealogy and this is the actual tree structure the FT DNA tree structure I just love that graphic so I'm going to give an example of how the FT DNA tree is built off of everyday results so I took an example this is from haplogroup J a branch called z18 271 there were a wave of big Y's that came in from this group and so what I do is I I take the person's novel variants and other variants that are unique to just that group that have at least one ancestral value in this group so currently there are seven people at this group we call them a through G and then we have these shared variants here these are the variants ref just means that they're reference are their ancestral they don't have anything there and then this T these green boxes indicate that there is a variant present so does a simple reordering shows that there are three branches within this that could be added to the tree first we have this single variant here that is shared between samples enf simple enough then we have another block here that is shared between samples D B and G you'll notice here that sample B has no coverage that that's where this end means that he has no coverage for these snips however we know that because he forms a branch with D that he has to have these mutations so it's not necessary for him to have coverage here in all in actuality well this is D and G have big wide 700s and sample B was from big y500 so here is the third branch now for a little bit of a trick eNOS added into it this down here is a thing that I run for the total number of all calls are the total number of snips that are viewed in the EPI DNA database and I'm finding three people with this variant well I'm only showing two here so where is this other snip well it's a card in the tubes the 18 to 7 1 min that we've mentioned and then it also occurs in this branch which is very close to here so what exactly does that mean if we go and look on our tree these men are currently placed up here and they're negative for everything downstream but they share a mutation with this man so how could that be another way to view this is if I search this mutation and all of these men this everything in highlighted in yellow here is everybody downstream of z18 290 you'll see that nobody has coverage except for the single big wide 700 right so we know from this that everybody in this group has to have this mutation so being that we know that we know that this nip is actually upstream of z18 290 and so when we add that that to our tree we have a new big wife 700 branching point downstream of Z 18 to 7 1 and then the two branches that we referenced in the discussion are down here so there were actually four branches of the tree that were added so there is a bit bit of trickiness comparing Big Y seven hundred to five hundred but it's really uncovering a lot of neat branches like this and this is just a low-level one we're finding a lot of higher-level ones that are proving to be quite interesting this is just a block tree view of the of the same branch that was added okay so I want to talk a little bit about some of the what I think are the more notable samples that FDA has produced within the last year year and a half or so so when somebody takes an STR tests with ft DNA we give them a predicted haplogroup we don't predict very far down we're very conservative with them but em2 is actually one of the places that we predict to what we had a man come in from Saudi Arabia that that actually split em2 it's the first time I'd seen somebody split a branch that we actually predict to its that that high up in the tree this is almost a primarily West African haplogroup you can see some of the countries here that are most common in our database and theorize for having east to west pension and so who breaks it of course a man from east of West Africa yeah you'll you'll know from our previous example he's negative for all of these mutations and then there's about a couple hundred mutations that are still blocked up in this m2 block early r1b splitters there was a neat result that came from from France actually late 2018 a man split pea 3:10 and l1 51 now these are way high up in the tree these are the parents of p3 12 and you 106 so that was pretty neat we have nearly 18,000 big Y's and tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of STRs downstream of these branches but also in the end of this year we found another man who fits into this exact same line however they do not form a branch to each other so we actually uncovered a third line so another way to view this is we have three distinct lineages from P 310 one with basically our entire database lineage B has only one person and when you see has only one person so I mean in such a heavily tested group it's really hard to wrap your mind around how amazing that is and and what's still left out there to be found here's another recent split in what I saw calls have a group a one a this is another West African branch found very predominantly in places like Mali it's actually very common in the u.s. it was brought over in the slave trade mtDNA estimates this branch should be about 51,000 years old with the tmrc a of eighteen point four and who was at this split this branch a Saudi Arabian so when I was talking about the STRs and we run for unpredictable people we run what is called the snip occurrence program which is a small number of snips to give somebody an actual haplogroup so I've done tens of thousands of these and in 2018 a customer came back and I was scoring his backbone results and he came back as CT star so a star where an asterisk simply means that he's negative for everything downstream so he's negative for that this is a visualization of the backbone of the tree so he's positive for Beatty CT negative for everything here and F is the parent of ijkl R so we're gonna run a Big Y on this person of course with his permission but there's only ten possibilities that could come out of such a result and every one of them are going to be essentially groundbreaking and in terms of the tree possible things he could be a true CT star and form a new branch down here that is probably a hundred and forty thousand years old he could he could fall down de it's a test that it's a branch that we don't test for in the backbone because nobody ever falls on just that branch there either diri CF another branch that we don't test for cuz nobody belongs there and he could also split any of these groups here because all of them have equivalents and we just test for one so you can split DC e CT de see if doesn't matter which one of these occurs that's going to be quite interesting and Big Y is about to figure that out and what he actually did was he split the root of haplin group d mtDNA is estimated that this split is about sixty five thousand years ago so that means a man lived sixty-five thousand years ago has descendants alive today that the community had no idea about the fact that that people are still out there like that even an under test that how the groups is still just it's mind-blowing to me so he was found to be derived for only thirteen out of about 250 snips at the root of happen or be the participant could trace his lineage back to Al wash and Saudi Arabia along the northwestern coast of the Red Sea this between Egypt and Jordan so we ran a big why on him and then we also asked him for his most distant known paternal relatives so that we could run a big why on him unfortunately for him he was not able to trace his mail line back very far and the best we could get was a first cousin so we ran him we'd found only one snip difference but then we added this branch to our tree and called it D F T seventy-five or it could also be referred to as d2 and so this branch formed about sixty-five thousand years ago but everybody and it has a common ancestor about a hundred years haplogroup D is an exclusively Asian haplogroup it is found nowhere else there are no instances of it in Europe in the new world in Africa its dominant Tibet Japan Tibet in the Andaman Islands very low frequencies in South Central and Southeast Asia it was conspicuously absent from India it had not been seen there but recent studies have actually found very ancient Indian samples to be have a group D so this is just a few of the tree after we splitted so now this is the new D route these are just the number of snips below the room this is what used to be happened room D is M 174 and then our new branch that we added here but with about 700 more mutations in that block so what we wanted to do is we wanted to have to find more structure within this group as opposed to just a man in his first cousin so we took the proactive approach and started mining our STR database and find particular people that might belong to this branch actually there is a well known ft DNA sample that has had the happy group label of de star since 2011 this came from a Nat Geo kit I think there might have been some hesitancy about if he was really de so the enthusiasm wasn't necessarily there but then we decided to take a second look and we ran a Big Y on him and he actually does belong to the new d2 branch but he's not closely related to these men at all he was aim of the 700 snips that we use to define D - he was ancestral for over 250 of them so this is about a 25 thousand years split from a 65 thousand year split so the original two breakers that we identified got a new branch called ft 76 and so you see this structure here we decided to do a bit more and we found another prospective d2 member from Hawaii again he had very limited knowledge of his paternal history but you can see his his autosomal results primarily west african and he clusters with the original two big why's that we did but still it's a pretty ancient relationship as he likes 58 snips than the original to share so that we asked me that about a 5,000 year split so the original breakers get a new branch so now they go from D to F T 75 to F T 76 and now they're at Ft 155 and one last time we found another man who had very unique STRs but didn't match anybody closely at all he could trace his paternal lineage to the tab plantation so again brought over by the slave trade is my origin showed primarily west african and he came back again related to this d2 lineage but he was another twenty five thousand year old split in this so and all we ran five big why's we found a split at the root of haplogroup d s maybe sixty five thousand years ago we found three distinct and independent lineages start lineages twenty five thousand years old in one of these we found another five thousand year-old split and we documented the first cases of haplogroup d outside of Asia so it's actually in the Middle East and in Africa I tried to take a picture of what it looks like on yet to denature e you see this giant block this is the small block I couldn't figure out any way to get ft seventy five to look anywhere close to being good enough to be shown but it'd be about three or four times the size of this block the information over here is we're done up I've already mentioned this so while we were doing this at the same time another researcher by the name of Hebert had actually discovered this line as well and so he put out a paper at the end of 2019 where he found this new d2 lineage in Nigeria and in the paper they referred to it as half d0 it's similar to what was done with haplogroup a when we found something older than a it was referred to as a zero found some older it's a zero zero I saw a guy believe refers to this as as d2 as well now the paper reference is only three samples with a tmrc a of about two and a half thousand years old the the sequence data for these are still locked up at the moment so we don't have access to see where exactly they fit in but there was enough information in the supplemental material that I was able to see where his Nigerian samples fit in with the five that we ran and so this is a an overview of basically everything that we have discovered since then this is this was the old root of D this is the new split so now those are d2 we have a 25 thousand year old split right here this D to a here are the original two the man from the tab plantation actually matches up perfectly with these Nigerians and this whole group shares a common ancestor about 2500 years old but then we have the the Russian who could traces routes to Syria and another African American man that are 25,000 years removed from everybody else so there there's still quite a bit of diversity in this newly discovered branch and that is my talk thanks right one point is absolutely amazing the work that you're doing I'm sure there's got to be loads of questions is this being published or how do you communicate the readings we had we have not published anything yet Hebert coming out with his publication kind of stifled that a little bit but we're thinking of at least putting out a note to supplement their findings with our but we're working on that right now of course publication takes such a long time there's three months six months to review and by the time the paper comes out there's more discover all have been made in the meantime is there any plans for a blog or Brooke Roberta Estes wrote a blog about it I believe that early late 2019 when we first added the new branch to the tree it's something you could easily Google Roberta Estes haplogroup D she has a nice blog post about this so and what extent I mean all these do this is changing the way people think about the evolution of men coming to what extent do you work closely with archaeologists with linguists who are doing the same kind of research from an entirely different perspective but it's obviously very common to be very complimentary of the work that you're doing with genetics personally no I'm dealing with with new data all day every day and it's not much collaboration outside at the moment where would you would you like to see that collaborations going forward or how would how could it be coordinated it that there could be some very interesting things done one of the things that we want to do is to start analyzing more scientific samples such as the 1,000 genomes project and other things and we are working on that there are there's a lot of technical difficulties with that again it's it's a completely different testing platform and getting those results into our database in a meaningful way is a bit tricky the analysis isn't getting them in there properly is is a bit tricky and that was something that we discovered discussed it in Dublin in genetic genealogy Ireland in October and Lara Cassidy from a Trinity College Dublin she was presenting the results of 150 ancient genomes from Ireland they're putting them out there really oh I mean it's we every week it just sits there just keep pumping them out it's it's it's fascinating it really is would be great to get them into yDNA warehouse and somehow I'll know where there are a lot of a lot of them have a lot of them are very poor coverage samples you can you can make a lot of mistakes drawing inferences and getting too aggressive with your analysis on the ancient samples it's not like a customer big wide where it's very clean and and most of my decisions are very easy you can make a lot of mistakes yeah and and they can go unnoticed unless the right people look at it you have to be very careful mmm it will be interesting to see what happens when we finally get those ancient genomes into the database because of course alone will it be in radiocarbon dated and so that will actually help us set calibrates the mutation clock on the tree of mankind yeah yeah exactly we have a question here from Jaret come thank you Mike actually I have a hundred questions everybody allowed me one or two so um he might watch you you're probably familiar with heeds for integrated mouse which what interests me is the l21 branch when it counts for most in ireland and we're interested in surnames and trials and sepsis on its world so he has taken a hundred surnames where at least three branches contain the same surname so we can make and that's probably different branch for that surname and fifty of those are aren't related rest of Scottish Wales so very very interesting do you have any plans to actually do that systematically on the big tree know what though I'm working myself through the limitations that privacy is gonna is always going to be the big one so I'm pretty sure you're referencing alex Williamson's big tree and of course Alex are the great tree and Contra is it faded into the ftda the the layout or that the formatting is is was inspired from him just the the simple block visualization but none of the data is transposed or shared our trees completely independent of the great half would you take on the Irish flag for instance and you get all the branches just one thing about surnames because on the big tree you can see the surnames of absolutely everybody but you only see surnames if you're within a turkey snip distance is it possible to grow half of surname is being put on every single branch of the big white block tree you know it's privacy privacy we can't publish the names of participants adjust the surnames I've got the person to ask I know I'm gonna put that one thank you very much this morning the people minute your your backlog of decisions and analyses of you people i testicle my name is freed by the hundred by the day almost the last note the last ten days about two thousand samples have posted so but I'm going to routes tech the week after so that the well you mentioned backbone testing I haven't talked to you about this but it may come up with other Senate administrators I want to buy Bob who's got a backbone test underway you did touch on it but could you go over the game perhaps to explain okay I think you're dogging an advertised thing but here we are suddenly getting something I gather we didn't ask for where you initiated okay so the backbone that I'm talking about is for people who take an STR test and we cannot predict one haplogroup that they are going to be in confidently so at that time we run a few snips for them now when it comes to the construction of the haplit REE the the haploid tree is automated in for the variants that were automated automatically called by ft DNA sometimes I make a call that ft DNA mtDNA no calls it because they're not confident in it but I look at it and I'm confident it I override that and the only mechanism I have to do that at the moment is by uploading a results the same way that we upload backbone results so if you're a big wide tester and you see a why happen the backbone order that just means that I've been in your area and needed to have basically uploaded a positive snip call to get an appropriate half a group assignment free clear okay we'll talk with all this work you do all of a sudden Alice's you do a lot of it manually is automated dear own proprietary software what sort of applications are using to do all this amazing work like so many people were doing this you know it's not so it was a lot more manual back in the day and then some of the things have been automated such as generating matrixes to work with back in the day I used to have to hand enter every single mutation into the tree by hand enter the snip name the position the alleles so if I added a hundred snips and I had to do that by hand and that would take about 30 45 minutes it was very very tedious very recently that been able to get that more manual then so that's just some of the things have been automated but still it's it's a very branches are not added automatically everything is is viewed by me and so every so that the analysis portion of it is still very manual but some of those the data collection of business visualization from my end is a little more automated Michael thank you very much for the talk and I can see every day how big the tree grows I've even got my own particular branch me and my dad but my question is and I also see what really bears coming true from true my project for all the mitochondrial tests that are running through and I know the fire 3 number 17 on the mitochondrial has caused in 2016 I think nothing's happened I was wondering a Family Tree DNA are going to clone you and put your other side on today watch the mitochondria 3 thanks very much it honestly it's been kicked around a bit but I don't see it happening any time soon it's a daunting task and it's it to be honest I think the white tree is much easier but no III don't see us trying to venture down and do a similar thing with the empty tree anytime soon my keys are still very conservative in predicting happy roots of most Irishmen just get or - m269 I know for running a county project it's very easy to see that a man is at 2 - 2 or 2 to 6 I mean you could sell about more tests by asking average but do you want to know I mean a descendant from neither the by hostages are frightened for who you are it costs about you configure as any chance of getting more predictions of yours so I believe it was five six years ago FTD Nate tried to get more aggressive with their STR predictions and that kind of bit us in the bud a bit because you if we get it wrong it's on us if we predict somebody down here and they order a test based off of that prediction and they're wrong well then we have to refund them comp them and that's that's out of our pocket so it was decided to go back we'll stick with the basics and basically it it's more to cover us then and the admins can be as and and and I realize and everybody will have their so take the look tree and and people will say well you can easily you can confidently predict this and and I don't see us going back with the more aggressive thing any time soon either so we we just crossed 40,000 a week ago and like I said we've done about to that so it's got to be around 42 now so about 42,000 well unfortunately we can stay for another hour we would like well unfortunately we have to call it a day there we have Ken and Alison Tate of talking next about distances no object and how family matters can be sorted through DNA but Mike you'll be standing around the family drinking iced down for the rest of the day so if you have questions please take advantage of Mike's prezi's here and come and ask them some questions for family treated nice done and until then please I know you enjoyed that