The Theologian of Early Anabaptism Who Died for Politics - Dean Taylor

The council of Trent actually names Hubmire as one of the chief heretics. Uh this is where actually Luther, Zwingley and Calvin are mentioned in the council of Trent and Hubmier. He he goes up there and he starts defending believers baptism right there in front of the church and the very people he's supposed to be apologizing to. So he's a he's a gutsy guy, very fascinating character. And you know, even just going through his his works and everything, oh, I find myself so many times going, "Oh, that's excellent." Oh, that's terrible. [laughter] That's excellent, you know. >> Well, Dean, [music] welcome back to the podcast. >> Thank you. So, we're going to hit on a topic that I I had never heard of until recently before, but in the founding years of antibaptism, those first first few years, you know, 1525, the the famous story, we we hear names like Conrad Grebble and Michael Satler and Felix Mons and and so forth. And those are considered, you know, the the first figures like the the really important figures for what results for us today, you know, 500 years later. But there's another key person in that story that I had never heard of before. We very rarely hear his name and that's >> Hubmire. >> And who who is Hubmire? Uh so I was doing a little digging on this and realized you know he's a pretty important figure in this story. Um in fact Arasmus wrote and about him and called him the doctor of Anabaptism. Yeah. >> Which is really interesting. Uh so tell me about who he was and what were his contributions to the Anabaptist movement in those first few years. >> It's a great uh it's a great topic and you know he's u he's a mixed bag for sure and it's kind of like here's the question I always ask what's Anabaptist. So, on one hand, I think it's good for us to own our mistakes, you know, the the same thing we had when we were doing Monster, you know, um and and it's a fair question to push back and say he's not an Anabaptist because truthfully, what you could say from all Anabaptists today, um both from a progressive side and a conservative side is that Hubmer's theology wouldn't fit in that particularly because of pacifism. And so, the monster is the same way. So the question you have to ask yourself about Anabaptist in general is >> is everybody who was baptized as an adult an Anabaptist? >> And if I could flip the question and if I could flip the question is everybody that was an infant baptizer a Catholic? >> Well no we know not. You had Lutherans, you had reformed, you had all these different people and somehow they get to have different camps within infant baptism. But if anybody even thought about baptizing an adult, you know, they're called an Anabaptist. So I think it's fair to say to give a little bit of question mark on this. And you know, even on his >> this this book, right? >> Yeah. On his sources, you know, the theologian of Anabaptism, >> it's literally the subtitle of the book, right? Certainly if you were to go on the street and ask them, >> you know, in the time period from you're talking to uh Bullinger or you know all these people who who is it he would certainly have been uh put on there >> again Arasmus saying he's a doctor and I'll get to some of the ones that mention him too. So yeah, so it's fair but that's to those who would say wait that's not what we would claim man of baptism. Fair enough. It's true. he would not fit into our world today because we hold the two kingdoms and the teachings of Christ in a very real way. Very important. I mean, both the progressives and the conservative is something that all of us would share. >> I mean, it's a little embarrassing on maybe some of the theological points would be willing to give up, but we're not going to give up our view of non-resistance, you know, and it's a core value, and I and I recognize it's a core value for me, and so I appreciate that. But he did represent a different group uh that the sword and the different parts of of what he represented with that was certainly a difference from the beginning. So who is he? Uh I made notes for this to go through just to make sure it keeps me honest. But uh very fascinating character and you know even just going through his his works and everything. Oh, I find myself so many times going ah that's excellent. Oh that's terrible. >> [laughter] >> It's like you know and it is a mixed bag. Um and again you got to think of the time period he's writing in. He is one of the first people pushing back against you know uh exop operado meaning you know that just the act of the sacrament is going to create this without an act of faith. He was a hero that it must have faith for the sacraments to be valid and and these kind of a things. So >> that's it. So who is he? So born in 1480 in the uh Black Forest area. So as you brought up I think already or or going to here he was a doctorate. He own the only one who actually had a doctor degree. Now we have other educated Anabaptist. >> Yeah. No but that that surprised me like he Yeah. He's the only one of the early Anabaptists that has like what we would call a PhD or or you know a theology a doctorate of theology degree and did a lot of I guess academic work. I mean wasn't he a professor or a teacher for a while? um you don't really have Yeah, you do have the other founders being very, you know, educated and so forth, but >> not to that level. And which is again why I'm guessing Arasmus is like he's the doctor of >> Anabaptism. Exactly. And we'll get to his his comment on that on one of your questions coming up here. But so he got his doctor degree under the Catholic the Catholic defender of the faith Johan Ek. And this is the guy who debated Luther on the Catholics versus Lutheran, you know, at English dot. And this is this was a big guy. I mean that was his I don't know if they had the same kind of thing the doctoral adviser that kind of a thing >> he was a cathedral preacher and then his assignment that he got uh or where he ended up being settling in was in Valdut Vald in 1521 and that's an important thing and we're going to get into his meeting Zwingi early on about 1523 before the Anabaptists are really getting kicked in too much he's already having these interesting talks with with Zwingi >> so he he would have been living preaching in a cathedral close to Zurich then because Zwingley is in Zurich and then for maybe some context too like Zwingley is like essentially the person who starts the Protestant Reformation in Switzerland. >> Yeah, exactly. Right. >> Remember when we were driving around um this is more that Black Forest area. It's on the Switzerland side of that. Okay. >> So all these areas were borders between Hopsburg and France and all this but it was on the northern side of Zurich. I mean, nowadays it wouldn't take us that long, but >> yeah. >> An hour drive or something. I don't know. I'd have to >> I can't remember when we did it. So, so yeah, we're referring to the documentary series that that you and I helped make, which people can go watch. And actually, the Black Forest area, what is where Michael Satler is from originally, right? There is the prior of that of the monastery, which again we we got to film there. It was really cooling that that's a whole another story that we won't get into. So, Hummer's from there. He's having some interaction with Wingley fairly early on. sounding like I mean this is kind of like Conrad Grebble level interaction with with Wingley then because like like Grebble was involved with with Wingley right at the beginning. >> Exactly. Right. He comes to that circle not that direct circle but there's a a particular circle with >> Hubmire >> that we have to understand from the beginning >> and this this was always a group that was more involved with the peasant revolts than the rest of them. And it brings in a figure that we should kind of bring in to wrap into understanding Hubmer's circle and that is Wilham Rubin. So Wilham Rubin um was one of the original guys there in Zurich. As a matter of fact on January 17th 1525 the big uh disputation where you know 21st is when they had the baptism. The 17th remember that 1525 he was there. He's recorded to be there. And so the the council there they argued for believers baptism. The council ruled against them. Grebble, MZ, and Rubin were there and were given 8 days to leave the canton. So 4 days later, January 21st is considered now the beginning of man of baptism. We don't have him recorded either in the chronicles or an actual that he's in that baptism, but it's possible he was there. It was there Rubin I'm talking about here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. >> So within days though, Rublin and Johannes Broley is headed north to Hala. Again, this is again northern areas there in the black forest in the ca in the canton of um Schaffenhausen. And this is where the story gets politically charged story. So this bellge allow um was in firmament from the peasant revolt and they were refusing to send their tithes to the different district administrators and they wanted to also choose their pastors and keep the resources local which was part of the 12 articles of the of the peasant revolts and is all that. So they were right in the vein of that. So Rublin and Johannes Broley preached and nearly the entire village got baptized. So this is like an early ver this is you know just now months after that first baptism um or days after that. So then get this now this is an important thing. So when Schaffenhausen council sent troops against them >> the villagers these Anabaptist villagers so-called protected their Anabaptist preachers with weapons. >> Oh >> so from this is now a circle. We're not quite hubar yet but we're about to be just this the next step. So this is now this now uh this is important that in the beginning there's this where do we put the peasant revolt guys that happen to be baptizing adults are they with the Michael Satler and the and the you know and the and the different ones there. >> I when I was reading or I was studying the Dutch history I never forget this one of the books that I read in one of the 18 uh an early 19th century source talking about what do you do with Hoffman and Minnow and and they're so close together and he had a great analogy. He said it's like they were two trees, two fruit trees that were so close together that when you're looking at it, you can hardly tell the difference. And the way you finally tell the difference is of that tree is you look at the fruits and the fruits then lets us know that ah that was a stream that's completely different than this dream. And a lot of these guys are certainly going around, but the fruit of their life kind of makes it what's last. Okay, so let's get to Hoffman though. So that's going on. You know, you got troops coming against them and all that. So now we get to uh Vault Hood which is where Hoffman's at. So from Hal Rubin made his way south to Vault Hood, a little town on the Ryan right on the border between the Hopsburggs land and Switzerland. And like that it was similar in the situation a town in revolt aligning itself with the insurgent peasant groups. The leading preacher of this town was built as our hublier and he's in this place now. Early in his days he was very part of Jewish persecution. He later says he was wrong. He should be kind to the Jews. But some pretty ugly stuff that he was involved with and part of these different things that was there. But of course he had his doctorate degree. He was very educated. So he'd been moving towards believers baptism since he meeting in 1523 with Swinging. We'll get to that later. But picture the scene now. This is what happens. Get this scene. It's great. >> It's Easter Saturday, the day before, you know, Easter. April 15, 1525. So in the parish church of of Voltzhood, Rublin, the fugitive from Zurich and Hala baptizes Hubmire now for the first time and 60 others publicly from the pulpit. So they're having like this little revival. Hubmire gets, you know, baptized, the rest of them get baptized. The next day, Easter Sunday, Hubmire begins baptizing his own congregates. And within days he baptized about 300 people. Total revival breaking out in this town. The majority of vald citizens including city council members are all getting converted. And now we have the first mass believers baptism in the reformation. Didn't happen in Zurich. Didn't happen. This is the first mass baptism right there. >> And this is Hubar doing it. >> And this is Hubar doing it in Valsa. >> Okay. See, now that's that it seems like this is a figure we should be hearing more about, right? Like, okay, so we all hear about Conor Greer and Felix Monson, these guys, but then you have Hubmire doing the first massive mass baptism, you know, he's early right there at the very beginning. He's he's at some of the disputations in in Zurich. He's meeting Zwingley, etc., etc. He has the the PhD, so to speak. >> Yeah. >> Which I guess we'll get into some of why that isn't the case, why I haven't heard of him. But again, you're framing this is not a minor figure. It's not a matter of figure. >> This is very significant. >> But I'm also, I think, framing >> the the blurry lines between the peasant revolt and the Anabaptist. Um, which stays, what's the name of his book? The uh peasant revolts and the communitarianism. Um, excellent book. I have it here at the listing at the end. >> Yeah, we should we'll put that in the description. >> Excellent book that kind of shows some of the people. Uh, Rubin was certainly part of that. And I would say the evidence would say that Hubmire and we'll keep coming back to this was part of this more peasant revolt group than than the uh than the other ones certainly were. All right. So let's let's keep following that out though. But it's it's April 1525. Okay. Right after baptism as well. >> So he does this. What happens next? Well, after Easter is now in Anabaptist city. The majority of the citizens and councils have been baptized, but the town is kind of in a very vulnerable state. Its only protection is alliance with the peasant insurgents across Germany. And these insurgents are being slaughtered. And then this is April. It's May of uh May 15th of uh a very famous slaughter happened. Thomas Müster's peasant army is destroyed. >> Oh. So they had kind of a protection you know and all this and now suddenly Thomas Muter goes out in flames and anyone who was in the uh you know peasant revolt world is is destroyed which again we we talk about this a good bit in the documentary series if people want to know a lot more of that context but >> that's essentially that's the end of the peasant revolt when his army and he gets massacred there May 15th 1525 right okay >> so it's the summer 1525 the peasant war collapses and without the alliance uh vault is no shield against Ferdinand. Ferdinand's district is this district. >> Who's Ferdinand? >> Ferdinand is Charles V's brother um and later becomes a a an Holy Roman Empire later I believe. U but he's actually the brother and and and governing this this side of the >> like think like the local dictator or something. Yeah. You know local emperor >> even more. in Hapsburg. He's in the, you know, he's he's in all this. >> So, meanwhile, Rubin has already moved on and now he's there in this town. Uh, interesting. Real quick, Rubin travels to Strawburg and from there he meets Michael Satler >> and they start talking. They divide the territory and and Rubin takes the south uh in uh Roenberg. Satler takes the north and this makes then where Satler starts the Schlheim confession >> where they hammer out I think one of the best descriptions of two kingdoms I think in one of the best in church history >> it's amazing and it and it comes out but um and people should go read it and let's not get sidetracked on the Schlim confession but wow that that could be a whole thing again we did a whole documentary on the Schlheim confession and actually um Mr. Russell does a reading of it. So if people don't have a copy, you can go on YouTube and listen to it because it's it's really profound stuff which the reason why I kind of want to peg on that is >> you'll see some differences later on where Hmire >> um diverges from things in Schlleheim. >> Exactly. And and Rubin I guess maybe was going back and forth. I don't know. So then from there of course the uh uh the trial of Satler and then the execution. It's actually Rubin who writes that scene and sends it out. the whole courtroom scene that we read about and makes it go viral. And so all that standoff in the court with Satler and all that is this little partnership with >> a fascinating account and I guess I didn't realize he wrote that. Okay. >> Yeah. So now back in Vol in December 5th uh 1525 the city is surrounded >> by the Hapsburg troops. The Austrian government um they have they have no resistance against them. Uh and so Hubmire flees in tattered garments and makes a faithful decision. He's going to Zurich and we'll pick what happens at Zurich up later. But so just from the beginning um interesting character um already way before I mean when does Greel I can't even remember when does Grebble start leaving Paris and coming into the circle with Zwingley >> 1523 >> 23 I thought it was two. So you have right around that time you've already got this doctrate trained >> guy going to Zwingley and talking about hey what about infant baptism >> well like it's it's right here like which again if people want to learn more about hubmire they um plow uh from the brut republished this and so it's easy to get your hands on the writings of hubmire now and it's this massive volume of you know 600 pages or whatever um so this just came out a couple years ago excellent stuff but one of the first things in here is from October 1523 where he's meeting with Zwingley and and making you know making a you know talking at one of the disputations about him reminding him hey you said this bro >> yeah yeah exactly and this is that would have been right around the time when you're starting seeing stuff from Greel from man some of these guys saying some similar things but this guy's right there in that scene too it's literally how this book starts with with him which surprised me why have I never heard I've never heard of this guy I've heard about all these other guys over there and I this guy was there too right >> he was and you again like the tree with Hoffman and uh you know and the monsters you know the some of those guys that were in monster at the beginning at least the first phase >> were close the second phase got a little more wacky. quick just for context again for people you know that's a whole another story again we we did we did stuff you can go check it out but um the monster thing is basically where Anabaptists went into open revolt and left behind so many of the teachings that Anabaptism would hold to and they turned violent and they took over a city that's up in Germany it's a crazy story and again we we'll leave that bunny trail people can go look that up we've done stuff on that um but you're right where you have things that may have started out closely aligned >> but then diverge off into wild. I mean, monster is clearly a case of that totally wild. >> And I don't think it's fair to just say adult baptism is the line of anybody who baptizes an adult, you know, he's in there. You know, Thomas Munster didn't even ever get baptized as an adult, but he's called an anabaptist because he talked about adult baptism. >> The guy who led the peasant revolt, you're saying, right, that guy? Yeah. Oh, that's a good point. >> So, he and he never we had no record of him either baptizing adult or getting baptized an adult as himself. Yet, he's called, "Oh, look at the Anabaptist." And of course that was maybe buller did that as well trying >> that's bizarre. So so but back to this >> um hubmire meetings wingley um it's early like this is before antibaptism technically even starts. The first baptisms haven't happened yet. >> We're setting some stage there. Where were we going with that before we got uh so it's interesting when Arasmus calls him the the the doctor of uh you know anabaptism he's doing it as an insult. Uh he's he's doing it like because in his list he's also mentioning Luther, Zwingley and Calvin as chief heretics. Exc not uh people like this as heretics and and people who are educated and hurting people. That's how so don't think of it as Arasmus as a as a oh he was open-minded and it was a compliment. No, Arasmus was writing it as a >> and he's a Catholic right very open-minded. I like Arasmus, a very open-minded Catholic, but nevertheless don't think that he was liking Hubmire by saying that. But what's interesting is the Council of Trent um actually names Hubmire as one of the chief heretics. Uh this is where actually Luther, Zwingley, and Calvin are mentioned in the council and Hubmire. And so yeah, so if you're asking the guy on the street, now things are different centuries later, but if you're asking the guys at the street, particularly the Catholics, um they saw this as a as a big risk. >> So for a little more context then like what was the council of Trent? Like when was that eter? Give us some little more background. >> So around 1545 to 1560s 563 perhaps. This is the um the Catholics reformation sometimes called the counter counterreformation. But you had the reformers making a reformation drawing lines. In my personal opinion, I regret the lines that all the different sides drew in the reformation period. Some of the things that the reformers drew lines and some of the place then the counterreformation or the Catholic reformation drew lines put some dogma in place that I think are are cages to theological discussion to this day. It's another whole topic. But in that they are it's the dogmatic statements ecumenical council from a Roman Catholic perspective on against the reformers and they set all these things straight on salvation by faith which scripture we're using all these different things mainly against Luther and they mention arc heretics and hubmire is one of those it says a lot this is what 64 so we're talking a life generation later >> but he was like the person they chose and it seems surprising to me that it wasn't like Rebel or you know me. Yeah. Or you know Felix Monz. >> I'd have to go back and look to see if there was anybody else but I read somewhere that he did he was at least mentioned but I don't know if he if there was others mentioned uh on >> the point being like at the time a very important person because I mean he's coming the council of Trent. I mean you know you're not just like a like you you've clearly done something that riled them up. Um and I'm guessing it's because >> he wrote so much stuff. I mean, look at the chunk. I mean, this is a chunk of writings that we have from him from that time. So, maybe that's why he was known. >> It's something to push back on at least. >> Whereas someone like Conrad Grebble died so soon after the first baptisms, he leaves some letters, but nothing, >> you know, not not that much actually. >> So, it's true. So, why is he forgotten? Um, the uh, you know, from the Anabaptist perspective, he's out of leadership in three years. Done, dead. And then from [clears throat] there, Nichollsburg changes hands and all this type of thing. So there's there's not much there. His position on the sword um as Anabaptism came into being and who they were um he uh was obviously very clearly against that and um and always was. And so and and then just in our own understanding his works, you know, the the Bruterhoff published this, but it I imagine it's hard to keep the thing in print. you know, not a lot of people read out in print for a while. It wasn't until the Bruterhoff got a hold of this and actually reprinted it. I think this originally came out. >> No, there there was something in there where they basically said like if you wanted to get his writings >> That's right. Yeah. >> They just weren't they just weren't available until this translation. >> Herald Bender, of course, he he was the uh the gatekeeper, you know, in this whole historical age when it was coming out in the ' 50s and the >> 40s. Okay. So, no, I found it here then. Um because there's a so this is the new edition that came out in 2019. And they were basically saying like why they're bringing it back. Okay. Okay. And he said until this volume's publication in 1989. So when it was first printed. Okay. >> There was no widely available English translation of the major works of Hubmire. You just couldn't get it. So it's just kind of one of those things. This is >> Yeah. >> It's in an archive somewhere, but >> good luck trying to read it until 1989, which is crazy. So anyways, but continue not to derail >> again. Uh and then with uh Bender, you know, it didn't obviously he was really pushing pacifism in his day. And so yeah, it just became part of the it didn't become part of our, you know, stuff that we studied a lot. Mhm. >> Um yet >> well one person that did interestingly enough the take you get from the Hitarian Chronicles um is the most positive thing on them which is interesting because Hubmar has a direct showdown with the Hutterites but the Hutterites uh I'll quote when we get Oops. when we get to that >> he they they talk about him and they mention this that from him it says here in the chronicles two hymns are still in our brotherhood >> which this beltar hubmire composed. There are also other writings by him from which one learns how he had so forcefully argued the right baptism and how infant baptism is altogether wrong. All this proved from the holy scriptures. Likewise, he brought to light the truth um of the Lord's supper and refuted the idol idolatrous sacraments. And so this is remarkable. This is from the the Hitarian Chronicles um still to this day and how they they you know spoke of him. And I have a extra interesting quote here I'll read later about from them the Hutterites as well. So but still all that said you're right. He vanishes into uh a little bit of obscurity with us. Yeah. >> This is someone we're not as familiar with. So give me a a basic overview then of like what were the things that were important to him? Obviously he wrote a lot. What were the things that he talked about um significant contributions he would have made to early Anabaptism etc. Well, you know, one of his biggest contributions is writing a document on baptism and against infant baptism and and you have to I mean appreciate the times >> just his insistence and this is very important in my opinion >> that faith faith must be there first for sacraments to be valid. M >> I think that when you read the early fathers, when you when you look at this, this is something that we lost around 250 or so, but it's incredibly important to this to the Bible that this the apostles and the early church. And he is one of the first ones to truly write about this in a practical way. Luther of course talked a lot about faith but still if you can take a baby and baptize them and that baptism be effectual um then where's the necessity necessity of faith and so Hubmer I think very does a very good job of bringing out the absolute necessity of faith being the thing that takes us first and then into baptism. Um, and then he talks about some other things, but just this this one point about infant baptism was huge. I I had some notes here on it that that's an interesting story and [clears throat] I we were alluding to it earlier. Hub Meer is traveling around. He's trying to figure out the reformation and the things he's reading and he wants to meet with Zwingley. They meet near the old molt wall near the encircled uh that encircled the city less than a block from Zwingley's residence. It's an office where Zwingley kept his personal library. And this is the interesting thing. Both men were questioning infant baptism at the time and Hubmyer brought a prepared list of questions to Zwingley and he's talking them out and apparently he has because he says in here when he's writing about it, I have in your own hand your objection to um to infant baptism. And so Zwingley was struggling with this and but but Zwingley had something that Hubmyer did not have. >> Shelves full of the latest editions of the church fathers fresh off the Basil Press. They had origin there and Basil and Tertullan and Jerome and Augustine all in critical editions there in this library. There's a fascinating uh PhD dissertation by Andrew Clagger from the University of uh Glasgow that tracks the folio numbers of Hubmer to Zwingley's copy and is pretty much proven that his petristic sources that he's quoting and many of his writings are from notes from these times of studying with Wingley. >> So it's fascinating. Here they are together looking through the Petristic fathers, checking this out, wrestling through this, and he's doing that with uh with with with Zwingley. >> Wow. Okay. Because Zwingley famously and and so forth changes his view on this and says, "Oh, we should do infant baptism." And that's where Conor Gable and these guys like, "Wait a second. >> You said that." >> And so for for Hubmire to be like, "I have in your own hand. You're right." you know. >> Yeah. Oh, and I wonder if if this gave them if that moment I I've pondered, you know, where you see a guy as as big profile as Zwingley pondering it and you're kind of thinking it's going to go this way really gave some some weight to it all, you know. But anyway, so it's it's it's it's fascinating to think though that his pymics against Zwingley would have been many times from the books that he got from Zwingley's library. And of all, I mean his there's been uh several different uh master thesis. I forgot the name of the the man who wrote that, but this this whole PhD thesis of people going in and looking at his Petristic sources, it's impressive. >> You're saying St. Hubmire's Petristic sources. >> Absolutely. And Petristic meaning like early church father >> early church fathers. I mean he is quoting and quoting and quoting through the the different maturistic fathers >> and and not just a summaries there are some summary editions that were out um but with this PhD proves that he's looking also at the critical editions that actually Zwingley had in his library >> send me that uh PhD thesis >> okay yeah we can we can I have it I have it here at copy >> um so his push on baptism um is is very Good. And it's interesting. It's it's I I read it and I it's again one of these things you're like h uh uh it's interesting. He very clearly states that you're that we're saved by faith and then and it has an order. The order of salvation he would look at is first you know there is the preaching uh or first there's going and then there's preaching then those who have to believe and then they're baptized and then they live a a Christlike life. And he has this order of salvation that he brings into that. So he does make it when you read through all of there and particularly his work on the baptism in in general, he makes the point that if you had the opportunity to be baptized and you didn't kind of implies you're not saved. He says something like the punishment you you'd have due coming to you. >> And so it's interesting from the first guy who really wrote about it. It's in his necess necessity for being saved. Um, however, loaded and comes off more as a uh uh command. Uh, and you do get him shying away from um his his work on uh he he was very concerned of course anything that the reformers and the Catholics were saying could happen without faith. And so you see him pushing back that on the on the the the Lord's supper and on baptism. Um he wrote a a book uh a work on free will another good work on here. He quotes a lot of origin quotes a lot of the fathers and just slams here are these reformers are thinking they're finding Augustine and he's the the petristic one. He goes before Augustine and shows that no actually the fathers had talked about free will and the reformers of course hated him for this. Um the other thing he's important for is the concept of a church a believer's church. And you think about it again before him um you had the state church idea. So how do you even articulate it? It's so common for us. This whole free church movement and this kind of a thing. >> It's um to have a community that meets around our common faith, not the state but the faith is revolutionary. Literally revolutionary. And he writes on this. He talks on he talks on that. talks has a work on uh church discipline in there. He talks about the ban. He's one of the first ones that talks about the ban and there's a little work on that in there. Um and then he also has some work on the the the um the communion. Now his communion stuff is is again one of those things that I'm like wow. And I'm a very high church, you know, and a Baptist, you know, and uh there's a one of my favorite articles on this is a guy Kirk McGregor who wrote a uh a uh a work on his sacramental theology of the communion. It was and got a Harvard Harvard Review uh journal on it. And he brings out by actually arguing for some different um translations in here of this idea that not just the wafer itself being where the real presence is being manifested which was very much talked about the argues between Luther and Zwingley and the Catholics and all that but saying that that God is Christ is co-substantiated in the gathered believers. So it was a gathered community where we were one with each other with Christ together and that's manifested in us. And then because of that and this is the important part >> it works out in works of Christlike following works. I read that in uh McGregor's works and I loved it and it's it's deep. It's rich. I went back and like read uh I said interesting the petristics I remembered some things. you go back with that thought in your mind and read the statements of Ignatius and he's talking about the real presence in there or even in in um Justin Martyr where we the the translated work in there is the transmutation and how this Christ changes like bread like like bread that changes in into digestion for for strength and it's this transmutation of Christ within us. It's the believer that's transformed and that's powerful. also his idea. McGregor brings up this this of looking at John 13:14 156 and 17 as Jesus's communion sermon. >> Now I'll say this on the other hand he makes some pretty strong statements sacramentally that baptism is not that and it's not and communion is not that. So um uh McGregor's work there I think it could be some more stuff on there. He brings out he has a liturgy a little liturgy early Anabaptist liturgy where he talks about receiving the grace of God uh in this communion statement. So it didn't have just the ordinance. So anyway too much on the sacraments but anyway I I found myself reading through it I'm like ah I I don't think I would have caught that without McGregor's statement and particularly how he saw some textual differences than the Yodor translation. Um but nevertheless you have that him talking about that and one of the biggest fights all of the Anabaptists were fighting was this idea that you could exoper operado that you could buy by your claim to this apostoic succession or this claim to having all the right words said proclaim this thing no matter the morality of the life of the person or anything and so they would push back like uh you know Marc would push back and say I don't care what you call This Paul says when you meet together because of your morality it's not the Lord's supper. So that's what the Anabaptists were pushing back against is what you're doing is not it. So anyway >> he talks about religious liberty. He wrote on the on the her one of his works >> on heretics and those who burn them. >> Uh which was one of the first ones to ask for some sort of tolerance in it. You still see though even in this work when you read it he does defend the right of the of a Christian state to execute for violence. Um it is in there and >> so this is where you started seeing he doesn't really have the two kingdom concept like we would >> ever. >> Yeah. >> And I don't I I think I used to say before I read all his stuff that I always kind of thought that he changed his view kind of conveniently when he got to Nicholsburg. >> No, I would say it's consistent from the beginning. Matter of fact, the first thing when he's in and his uh his arguments to to Zwingley, he say, "Hey, people have said I believe in Christian perfectionism, that I believe against the state from the beginning, um he he had the sword." Yeah. And then the last work that I I mentioned, what was important to him, you're mentioning, is his work on the sword, >> which I think is terrible. It's a terrible work. It's I could tell you funny quotes it if we have time in it, but it's I Anyway, it's my but it's still interesting to see coming from him. Well, see, he's a bit of a complicated figure because there's also an element in here where he recantss ah, >> you know, as well. And I I'd like to hear a little bit about that, too, cuz like >> I kind of had this sense, well, maybe he's kind of a wishy-washy >> person, which is also where I was like, well, maybe he just, you know, stops believing in the two kingdoms and starts taking up the sword because that was more convenient. But you're saying he kind of had that from the start, how you recant several times and so forth. Tell me about what happened. >> It's impressive. Well, you know, we we it's it's gruesome. Uh and it's an interesting story and it's a very human, very real story. And I said the same thing and I and before I actually read the accounts and everything, I kind of thought, look at this guy. He's going back and forth. Interesting. Like you got like Zolican um like when the you know the original guys with Gareel and Blau Rock were all there like the whole town gets converted. So Zolakan is a small village basically at the time right outside of Zurich outside right the first antabaptist church gets started there etc etc the first community so you get them all converting almost you know and then like the next couple days when persecution come they all recant >> so it's like you know it's not like he was the only one people were were wrangling to this I don't think necessarily they were it's just I mean I I I don't want to judge them you know what I mean it was it was rough and the torture that the reformers gave him was rough but let Let me give you the scene. It's December 20. It's December 1525. Remember what just happened? >> Disaster of the peasant revolt. Um Valhood's alliance on the peasants had collapsed. The peasant war is over. Catastrophically over. Now Ferdinand uh the government is free to turn his attention to Vault and this troublesome preacher. So on December 5th, Hubar gets out of town. He flees with tathered garments. He's a fugitive. He's running and he goes, "Okay, where do I go? Where do I where to go?" Zingley was open. I'll go to Zurich and I'll talk to Zwingley. And so he goes there to hopefully to have someone who can reason with him. So he goes to Zurich. So Zwingley instead of talking with him, he arrests him. Uh and interesting there's a note from Bullinger that said that gave the reason why. >> Bullinger being the uh successor successor. Yeah. when you're and Bullinger is interesting. Uh if you look at the gross spoonster now, he's the statue that's on the corner there. If you're looking at the front on the left, he becomes the successor. Interesting. He wrote some of the worst stuff against Anabaptist. Bullinger did. But on the other hand, he didn't kill anybody. Zwingley did. I think Zwingley killed seven Anabaptists. I can't remember the exact number right now, but Bullinger was strongly, but at least he didn't kill. He said Bullinger, his successor, later admitted the real reason. And he said, "Hubmire was so highly regarded by his fellow Anabaptists that he was too dangerous to to leave free." >> So Hubmire gets there and you get his personality. He's brilliant, but doesn't read the room. [laughter] I get these guys, you know, they're brilliant, but their EQ is low. I get that a little bit with him, you know, like they're not on your side, bro. You're And you're And you're thinking that you're so smart. you're gonna just it's a win there. So he requests a public disputation on baptism. So he's been there he's disagreeing with these guys and hey let's all meet. So 10 men are present four of whom Hubmire requested personally and he's there to show how brilliant he is in all this or or to convert them. He really thinks he did. So but here's what he does in this meeting. He pulls out Zwingley's own earlier published statements, the ones that Zwingley had request uh questioned infant baptism and quotes it back to him in front of this assembled audience. And he throws this cheeky challenge. If you do not demonstrate infant baptism from scripture, the vicer will complain that you have used against him a sword that you now have laid aside. In other words, you use the sword of the scriptures against the Catholics, but now you're just arguing for church tradition or something like that or some analogies. So, obviously, >> um, Zwingley was furious. It was a is a disaster at that moment. I'm sure Hubmire was feeling pretty proud of himself. It would go bad. And so, uh, of course, the council all sided with their hometown reformer and he goes to jail. and it gets really tough for him. So, what happens next is not a single recantation, but several of them. And it's a wrenching, heart-wrenching sequence that plays out. What they used on him was called the stravado. What this is, and you've seen, I think, some of the pictures in the martyr's mirror. They they put your your hands behind your back, okay? Mhm. >> And then they literally have them over a, you know, a pulley and they can pull you up, pulling your arms out of your sockets. And so torturing him to recant by while doing this is is the method that that they use on him. So it's it's, you know, just unbelievable when you start to try to think of that. So out of that, he finally he recants. And so they said, "Okay, all right. You you're sorry?" "Yes, I'm sorry." Okay. So, okay, we want you to go to church and we want you to publicly say this. So, he goes, "Okay, all right." So, the next day, um, he's brought before the congregation at the FRA monster and I think, isn't that a right across the the Lamont on the other side? Yeah. I think we walked in front of there. Yeah. And and to read it out publicly and he gets up there, all everyone's gathered and he says, "Okay, let's hear your recantation." I cannot and I will not recant. >> So you're like, okay, that's pretty bold. You got to throw him a bone for that. I mean, it's uh >> you know, >> that must have made him kind of mad at him, though. Like they get this big, [clears throat] all right, you're going to publicly say you're wrong. He's like, ha, I'm not going to. >> Exactly. Oh, and so what that what that must So he he goes up there and he starts defending believers baptism right there in front of the church and the very people he's supposed to be apologizing to. >> So he's a he's a gutsy guy. Okay. So of course what happens thrown back in prison. And we don't have as much details about uh his recantation here, but there's some details about it that are it made me wow just kind of peer into that. This time they used the rack. So that would mean they tie your feet to one end of this rack, your hands to the other, and just and just start stretching and breaking, and now all of the bones are being are being uh taken apart. And the Menite Encyclopedia article records that while recanting, so okay, I'll recant recant still then back and forth. He said, quote, "Again, establish the two bonds of the Christian faith, baptism and communion." And a little later, if th though if through fear of man and weakness of mind he was forced to yield those points to by tyranny, torture, sword, fire, and water, he then prayed to his father, "Raise him up again and not permit him to part from this world without this precious faith." >> So, but yet, okay, then he recanted. They put it on paper. But like even somehow people are taking the minutes of this uh I don't know the um was that he was struggling back and forth and praying to God and trying to hold on and saying even if I do then >> um so it's it's heart-wrenching. I just and these were the remember these are the reformers. These aren't the Catholics. These are the reformers doing this to me >> in Zurich. >> This is Wingley essentially or maybe not personally but personally. >> Yeah. So they got the uh extracted the recantation and Humbar is released in April of 1526. Um he left Zurich immediately and at that moment he was he was free. The very moment he could he wrote out a recantation a renounced the recantation in his short apology in this book. One of the most as soon as he's free and he's out of there he's like ah >> actually Yeah. No. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Oh my goodness. And he said this and this is one of his most profound statements. >> I may heir. >> I am human. >> I'm a human being but a heretic >> I cannot be for I constantly ask instruction in the word of God. Oh God pardon me my weakness. >> Wow. >> So you know months after that uh he was in Nickelsburg preaching believers baptism with more vigor than ever and the recantation was behind him. So he goes a long ways away then because Nicholsburg which is Michelov um in the Czech Republic I think it took us to drive then >> yeah I mean we yeah that was what a six eight hour drive basically you're you're in Switzerland you're going way east all the way to like the Czech Republic >> so he basically spent a long time traveling away from Zerg as far away as you possibly could get like and then again called Michelov now if you want to look it up but at the time called Nicholsburg >> that would have been a number of different Anabaptists and stuff ended up there right was that because there was freedom there or like so basically he's I can imagine maybe he comes out of this he's like well I don't want to go through that experience again so where's somewhere I can go that'll be safe where I won't get tortured again basically or imprisoned or whatever >> exactly and it's a great it's a great question and and I remember being there so you you come into this castle um remember how it was when you drive up it's a kind of a not that big of a town we're going through these fields and all of a sudden >> whoa >> huge castle up on a rock like in the middle of town >> and it's like even now you know, you're like surprised by this place. So, this was no backwoods, you know, little lord here. This was a, you know, further east, but it's it's something there. And the particular person that's that's of note is uh uh Leonard von Likenstein. And and this is, you know, Moravia has a little bit more freedom kind of like Strawber did. They have a little more freedom. So, he's encouraging all these people to come. uh not just the Anabaptist but the Anabaptist particularly he likes and he ends up liking um Hubmer and actually um >> but you're you're saying the the local Lord saying this what was the name of the local >> Likenstein >> okay Lord Likenstein >> um and so yeah it's it's so it's interesting so he's there and actually you know the Frochower uh or the Frochower Bible the he likes uh um Hubmer as well and he follows them he goes to here as well as a matter of Fact, you got to understand out of the first wave, by the time you get to 1527, the people who end up in Moravia are over 12,000 converted Anabaptists. >> That's like two years. >> Two years. And just and it says a lot about early Anabaptist missions. And um one of the records I saw 12,500 but over 12,000 people left their farms and their lands and said, "Okay, we're going to go and we're going to be in Morabia and we're going to uh do this." Froded them, started publishing his stuff there and and all of course so Hubmire goes there >> and like what happens to Hubmire at that point? Does he >> start I don't know. I mean obviously he has freedom now. So So like what does he do? What does he do then? So he's incredibly influential influential there. And it ends up and Likenstein himself according to the Tarian Chronicles gets baptized. >> That's phenomenal. That'd be like the president or something getting baptized. >> Here it is. It's in volume two. Uh the volume one account of this does not give this this point. But the volume two on page seven gets into some of these details about the work there and how they they came into difficulties with the the proto hutterites. And so speaking of them being in there and talking about hubmar he responded by summoning Lord um Likensstein who lived in Nicholsburg who had been baptized and was now called a brother. >> Wow. to appear before him in Vienna with his brother Lord Hans's when it comes up to uh his close to his persecution and remind me I have a great quote here about what happens to him with the Hutterites >> so so now it doesn't necessarily that say that Hubmire baptized him baptized Lord Likenstein right so the implication is maybe potentially at least theoretically according to this source Lord Likenstein had been rebaptized >> right >> before Hubmer even gets there and he's like oh here's a local lord who is on board with what we're doing is that It's possible. It's possible. The the the Midnight Encyclopedia online puts it, he certainly or something like he certainly was baptized. And I know when we were there, we were digging out a source >> and we couldn't find one. I did find it in the second volume of the Tarian Chronicles. Uh I we do not have an exact record of it. Um, and but I would I'm just guessing from the influence of of um Hubmer Meyer being there in that time in that short amount of time he published 17 works and six,000 baptisms. >> How how big a time period are we talking about? >> Over less than two years or two years I somewhere around two years. So the majority of this 600 page of dense theological writing comes in less than two year time. >> Yeah. >> While 6,000 and the the disputations with the hutter the proto hutterites and all these different things writing all these things. >> The man was a force of nature uh writing in there. >> So so tell me a little more about that. So like he he's under the protection now of a favorable lord who you know who's not going to persecute him and you know exile him and things like that. So he's got some stability and then at some point you you're mentioning the hutterite so they're you know the beginnings of the hutterite movement start coming out of that same area right so there's interaction going on there between hubmire and them there's some differences there yeah >> etc maybe we could dig into that um but then yeah there's some differences but then ultimately you do see a partying of ways between hubmire and what the hutterites >> and it's a good story >> doing so yeah you kind of walk me through that and I don't want to go too far down the hutterite rabbit hole but it's as it relates to hmire at least >> interesting point which uh so Yeah, it's it's it's it's an interesting story. So, the key figure there of the people is Hans Hoot, who you know is much more apocalyptic, much more um spiritualist and that kind of a thing. And he's sort of leading out the what becomes the Hutterites for a while. [clears throat] they're debating and this whole non-resistant level which the Hutterites had always embraced and this whole Schlidheim um groups are you know coming on to here and everything and Hubmer is trying to make sure this is not done now it's now coming on to 1527 you see the yeah the disputation with the protohutterites was in 1527 now keep in mind the jihad of the of the Turks Islamic uh had just taken Hungary degree in 1526. >> They're now marching up and they're coming close to this. So, Charles V and the the Hapsburgs are making rules. Okay. Everybody's got to be ready to defend the country at all times. So, Hubmire, are you with us? Absolutely. I've always been with you. I've always said that you defend it. So, everybody has to be wearing a sword because you never know when they're going to attack us. And you've got to be ready. You're >> Well, and this is Czech Republic. So that would have been very close to those borderlands that were contested with the Ottoman Empire, the the Islamic Empire at the time. >> And that and and then it was the Hutterites uh also were very scrupulous like we're not even we're not going to do this. This is a proto Hutterites. Of course, Jacob Hood wasn't part of him yet. We're not going to carry the sword. We'll do a stick, but we won't do a sword. And so this became to be a a uh a big uh difference here. And finally, it came to a disputation. And the disputation between Hans Hoot and him was out. Of course, Hans Hoot could not debate as well. And of course, with all the people he had on his side, and they ended up um dividing. It's interesting of all this first wave of Anabaptists that came here, the 12,000 now that finally making 1527, the protohutterites was only 200 >> that did not take up the sword and they said, "No, I'm sorry. We're not going to do it." And they they left. Interesting. Likenstein tried to beg them back and he even said I'll I'll send armed guards to defend your guy. He wanted it. He did um he did bow to the pressure of what he was getting from the house and whatever. Um but this this then when the Hutterites went out there they threw a um their cloak on the ground and they were head by Jacob Oneey Vimemit apparently had a patch or one eye or something and Hans Hoot now had had left and gone on different places where he ends up in Augsburg where the martyr cinned guys were there and ends up dying in a prison from smoke that was a fire in the prison and that's how Hansuit ends his life. Jacob weneyed Weiderman leaves the Hutterites and they go on on to going on to start the Hutterites later and Belar Hubmire gets his last phase um of that. >> So you're describing something that sounds like just a lot of politics almost >> where it's um the Lord the the Lord is getting pressure of hey we got this very serious military threat to our borderlands. They've already taken Hungary, you know, the Islamic Empire and so we need to defend it. And of course, the Lord's like, "Okay, yep. Yes, boss." Or whatever to the emperor. It's like, "Oh, I have a bunch of people in my city that won't do that." >> And so, >> exile essentially. Is that a way of saying it? But Hummer >> notably is not in that exile. He would have been backing the Lord saying, "Yeah, that's >> Yeah, if I got my dates right, the actual leaving of the Nicholsburg, I'd have to check the dates. I think my actually after Hubmer was captured, but I'm not sure exactly on the dates. around the same time. >> Right around the same time, we're talking months here. You know, >> a lot happens because then you're now we're starting to get into like 1527 range where you start have, you know, the Felix Mons is is drowns. Uh you have the Schlahham confession gets written. Michael Satler is is burned in 1527 and yeah >> so it was basically a bunch of Anabaptists getting together way further west of where Hmire would have been saying here's our plan for doing missions essentially and most of them end up getting executed you know out of that. Um there's a lot going on but Hummire is you can see it humpire is not really in alignment with some of those things. It's not. And the you say politics that I and I used to be more that way. I have to say to be fair >> to Hubmire. I don't see him ever I don't see anything in any of his writings where he was tempted to to take up the the the Schlidheim concept of pacifism. He seems consistently a uh a uh have had the sword from the beginning. >> He does not seem to hold to the two kingdom concepts like you very clearly see in Schlleheim. Yeah, >> he just doesn't have that. >> He does not. And even on his um work on, you know, those who persecute uh against those who burn heretics and you know, he even says there uh a Christian state can do this. >> Um >> wow. >> And that before even all this was happening. So I I think it's consistent with his um his there and Nicholsburg of course Likenstein would have adopted that too. So the Anabaptism that Likensstein would have accepted would have been a state type of antibaptism. So it was different. This was a different thread. So the the protohutterites and the Swiss brethren who were closer to the Schlidheim which become us today. >> Yeah. >> We're like, "No, but that was a minority. It was 200 out of I don't know at least 12,000." >> Yeah. I mean, we're talking about a already a schism or a split within the movement and we're already you we're only like two years into this thing and there's already a a major divide over a major issue, >> you know. >> Yeah. Interesting. We talked about Wilhan Rubin there at the beginning is he does show up there at the end. So when they they leave, Rubin shows up again. Hans Hud is no longer out. He sees a vacuum. He comes back into the Hutterites and starts living with him now with the Hutterites now. But he starts complaining about the leadership and this and the other. Jacob Hutter now comes and finally Rubin is dismissed disciplined >> and William Rubin who was one of the very first there at the Zurich leaves and he leaves Anabaptism alto together >> dies >> really >> poor we have one record where he was begging for money he was limping he got he was in prison a while in Strawburg that's then he came to the Hutterites and then there he got kicked out and ends up totally abandoning all of it and dies in obscurity >> but that's interesting Because Ribblin would have been a really significant figure for Hubmire's story. >> Yeah. And Michael, he was around Michael Satler. He was without fruit. Wow. He touched a lot of these guys, >> but ends up actually leaving it all. >> Ends up just saying that. >> But you also see that a little bit with Hubire like such a significant figure in early Anabaptism, but also not there's a misalignment there too. Like pretty right right >> from the beginning. And he's consistent with that. So, as I'm, you know, I was looking through this prepping for the interview, you know, you got all these things that that he's written, um, right? Like, um, you know, different things on on heretics and those who burn them, for example, you know, and stuff on his recantation, you know, Christian baptism of believers. But towards the very end, because I think these are all in chronological order. Um, you have one that we should spend a little time on here. It's called on the sword. So, I guess this would be where he's putting down >> officially like this is where I stand on the sword. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah, tell me about that because that would have been written >> towards the end >> right at the time basically when the Hutterites are getting kicked out because they won't take up the sword. >> That's right. And so he's defending this position. >> So was this maybe the Lord licked and shine being like, "Hey, like we need some articulation on why the sword is important, etc." >> I think so. Now he he's accused like uh in his early defense uh back in 1525, he's saying, "You've accused me of being against the government. You've accused me of being a perfectionist. Uh you know, not believing you sin after baptism." He says, "I have never been that. I've always accepted the uh and he makes that that claim. So, I do think it's something he's he's feeling is is uh is something troubling him. Now, >> when you read it, I was hoping a little more of an Augustine. You do get the uh city of God concept that we his basic uh thing is we we all want to be in the kingdom of uh of God. And he starts off with like the John 18, my kingdom is if my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight. And he says and he's rebuking the he's knowing he's rebuking the the Anabaptists the slightim Anabaptists so to speak and he's saying you're misreading this because we are stuck here in this world therefore we have to fight. >> Oh >> and it's a it's actually in my opinion okay I I think it's pathetic. [laughter] So some of his arguments like okay the woman cut caught in adultery. So he says to her and he's bringing this this point up. He's bringing all these different points that the non-resistant Anabaptists are king and he's coming against them. And to that one he says like okay notice that Jesus says woman who has judged you as or who anyone has judged you and he says notice what he did. If she would have said such and such judge he would have left it alone because he was recognizing the judges had been a godly judge would have then given a sentence over her to death. But since she said no one, he let her free. But if Well, we could have Christian judges that are executing people if this was right. And there's a lot of stuff like that. Like >> that's a stretch, >> bro. That's a stretch. And many of these he tries to go through um you know, uh love your enemies. Well, a Christian government doesn't have enemies. So therefore, [laughter] it's like, >> okay, wait, hold on. Lord Likenstein clearly had enemies though. >> So I've read good. You know, you read the city of God, it's it's it's well done. Even Martin Luther's two kingdoms is pretty well done. And he divides a better two kingdom. I think Luther divides a better two kingdom than Hubmer did in in Luther's work. Much better because he has a very clear two kingdoms. Um this is just uh you almost hear hear more of a uh a Calvinist um Geneva you know which would have gone with his Nichollsburg kind of coming out of his his pimics in there. I think it's late. So >> wow. But okay, but >> and then and then and then this this uh I wrote down some of these uh quotes on who's he says, so you Anabaptist you slight should I call it that he says he says accordingly I counsel you faithfully dear brothers return and repent. You have stumbled badly and and produced much trash everywhere against God and against brotherly love under the appearance of spirituality and the pretense of humility. God knows whom I mean talking to the pacifist there. And then later uh he he says he says therefore get behind me you Satan and stop misleading the simple people under the appearance of great patience and spirituality. We recognize you by your old tricks. So that's the line he's drawing with the pacifist. >> Wow. So he's very but let me check. It probably says when this was written. >> Well I'll put it this way. Two weeks after its publication. >> Get ready. This will this will date it for you. >> He's arrested. >> So it's it's like whoa. Jesus's promise. He who lives by the sword dies by the sword two weeks. And it says this the the Brutov puts this in I think in the introduction there that just a few weeks two weeks or just a few weeks after it actually was published. He's arrested. He'll spend the rest of his time in jail till he's burned at the stake. >> Okay. Because Yeah. Okay. So timeline wise this is this is some significant stuff because you have Schlheim in February. >> Yeah. >> Right. He writes this. The publication date on it is June. >> Oh, interesting. Okay. >> So, it's after. So, he probably has gotten a copyrer and he's like, "Uhuh, I don't agree with that." >> So, I need to write this. That's a good point. >> That's that's Well, but you also have, interestingly enough, Felix Monz and Michael Satler both being executed in that in that time in between there, too. Monz would have been I'm trying to remember what date that was in in 1527 and then Satler would have been in May. Yeah. >> So, I'm he would have heard of this. I think once was in January if I recall. >> January. Yes. Yes. I think you're right before Slideheim. And so, >> but but now here's what's interesting to me. One of the key points in the trial of Michael Satler, which again, we bring this out. We did a whole episode on Saddler and Schlidheim. And they're questioning him on on things like the sword. And he's saying, "I wouldn't defend against the Turks that are coming, the the Islamic invasion, you know, and and so we we can't take up the sword against them." He's saying that, you know, a month before Hubmire is writing about the sword, making the point that we can't take up the sword against these guys, right? Am I mean, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch because Lord Likenstein is having to take up the sword against Islamic >> that was the point. You need a we need a minute like, you know, imagine American Minutemen. We need everybody to be ready with their sword. The jihad's coming, guys. And it did. It came to Vienna in 2029 or something. Uh and so that was something that uh they wanted him ready for. >> Okay. So this is wild because you have the same issue being right at the threshold of Satler being burned at the stake. >> Yeah. >> And the end of Hubmire's life. >> Yeah. >> Same issue, totally different responses. >> And actually even calling out the passive Anabaptist and his work on the sword. >> Boy, how that >> calling him Satan, get behind me. >> Wow. And so Satler, he's literally says, "I won't defend against the invading, you know, Islamic jihadists." And they're like, "Okay, then we will we will burn you." You can read the court, you know, rip out your burn. Yeah. Like this. It's not okay. Hubmire takes a very different approach. Writes this paper, you know, a month later saying, "Okay, yeah, we can take up the sword." And what happens to him then >> when he writes that paper? Like it's very quickly he's arrested >> and thrown into prison. Like what in the world? You'd think it I don't know. It's almost confusing. They take different responses, but they both end up with the same fate. >> Yeah, you're right. >> Hmire and Ser. >> So, yeah. So, how does it end? So, um so in the summer of 1527, um the Hapsburg agents arrested Hubmire and his wife um >> Elizabeth. Sounds like Elizabeth. Elizabeth. And and here is the crucial detail that people miss often. And here's something though. And the the Midnight Encyclopedia online the game uh gives this quote uh the article states plainly the arrest was quote not so much a consequence of his religious work as of his political activity involving >> so it's thought that maybe even some of the peasant papers of the peasant revolt we don't have his name directly but it's suspected that this very prolific guy u was also part of that and so Watford Ferdinand had and and up there was what they were upset about and this article this encyclopedia article brings this out is his political involvement. So >> wow >> you know you think of uh many times you know uh and you you hear the stories of the non-resistance stories that it's by picking up the sword you truly do die by the sword and there's something in trusting Christ and that actually you know brings a different result but that's what happened. >> Wow. Um >> there's so much irony in all that. >> There's so much irony, you know. U Ferdan had it out for Hubmire going back to the peasants war the involvement with the peasants program the the articles uh between interesting enough even in his congregation back in the Black Forest area. It's recorded that there was a couple of those um Anabaptist one was name was Jacob Gross um who refused to go on some sort of insurrection that they had. And so you start to see tension even in his own congregation back in those days. >> Um so he's in prison. He's taken to the um Krookenstein Castle near Vienna um for interrogation. Humbar hubmire mounted a spirit a spirited defense def trying to really show his orthodoxy um his believing in free will. This would have been you know the Catholics Mary's perpetual virginity he makes the argument for. but he's not going to change his mind on believers baptism. And so that seals the deal. >> Wow. >> So, and we've been there uh on our tour. March 10, 1528, Hubmire was burned at the stake in a public square in Vienna. Right there, the the walls there. And as the flames rose, he cried out, "Oh Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus." His wife was there encouraging him to stay faithful. Of course, they worked on her. Um, and then after, you know, all the intimidation and all that with her, not much time later, they took her to a bridge, tied a a stone around her neck, and threw her into the river where she drowned to death. Uh, and I mean, what a life. Uh, what a uh, you know, thing. But again, his his But there's a there's an interesting though. Actually, I just found this this morning. I remembered there was some Hutterite document. I thought it was in the Chronicles. Uh but maybe it's from the writings of Peter Ridman. Maybe it was Jacob Hutter. I can't remember where it talks about something about him dying as a knight of God. Uh and I I looked just this morning and I ran across this take on what they considered the um the the what happened to the end of his life. Now, some people are critical of the the Chronicles. Uh but but keep in mind our our story of the the first baptism and and um Zurich comes from the first volume of the Chronicles. Um they did use some different chronicles that were written in dur during that time, but when they have stories that are personal to them, um not just summaries of of world history or something, I take it a little bit more um more seriously. So they're talking about this last time and watch this little detail. Um so King Ferdinand was informed of it. What's happening? He responded by summoning Lord uh Likensstein who lived at Nichollsburg had been baptized and was called a brother to appear before him in Vienna with his brother Lord Hans and all their preachers. And they complied straightway both Hubmire and his wife were taken prisoner and sent from Vienna to Krookenstein Castle. In prison, Hubmer remembered, watch this now, this detail. I hardly see this written anywhere. In prison, Hubmire remembered that he had unjustly opposed Hans Hoot on several points. He realized he was guilty of giving far too much to worldly freedom in regard to retaining the sword. This moved him to write to Nichollsburg particularly to his fellow worker Martin Provos if Kanzit asking him and the others to change anything that was not right. He added quote if Hans Hoot were here now we would soon be united. End quote. Page 8 volume 2arian Chronicles. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Whoa. >> What? >> What? Yeah. So, is do does the Hitarian Chronicles record a passionate lastminut change and actually apology to Hans? They actually have in quotes here, >> but we we've lost whatever corresponds was sent. >> We've lost it. But to be fair to our our Anabaptist records, >> guys, the Hootarian Chronicles is one of the best. I mean, during the Swiss Brother during this time, we have very little outside of the the Hootarian Chronicles. We still have these. I mean, I've been to the to the and held some of the originals in my hand. It it's uh it's a it's a source. So, I I think that this chapter needs to be at least considered as we talk about his sword. At the very end, we would be united. So, then it talks about the way he was burned at the stake. >> This is a complicated fellow, you know, he kind of leaves us with a lot of question marks. >> Yeah. >> In at the end of his life. And what what strikes me as phenomenal is like all this writing and everything we've talked about all happened in about a three-year window. >> No kidding. >> You know, cuz he dies in the spring of 1528. So they held him in prison for, you know, quite a few months, you know, trials and whatever. >> He dies in 1528 the spring. You know, the movement only starts in 1525. I mean, a lot of this is happening in just a couple years. >> Yeah. >> So much happens. There's so many things we don't know. >> Yeah. He's a complicated guy. >> He is. I mean when I I pondered that too and I thought >> and I thought okay Dean think of your last three years. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> You know um think of the you know what you've written and that kind of thing and and all the resources I have you know being able to use all of our modern conveniences and everything and what even it would have meant to write one thing. It is just uh it's amazing. Yeah. >> Yeah. So we come to the end of his life. What's a what do you think is the piece listeners can take from him? Like what's some things we can learn from Hammire? Obviously, there's major points of disagreement. >> Yeah. >> With him, but there's also some things he was a huge contributor as well. My two favorite quotes um is um there's one that he wrote after his retraction. I may heir, I am a human being, but a heretic I cannot be. For I constantly ask instruction in the word of God. >> Um, in that one, we can make mistakes. We can be wrong. Get up and keep fighting. Get up and still have a conviction and don't let discouragements like, you know, it happened to Rubin and different people who are discouraged. He was a guy who stuck to his conviction. And then, of course, his famous one, truth is immortal. He would sign all these. You can see it all the way through here. and truth is immortal. And I do think that he had a uh a conviction that he truly walked out what he thought he believed. Um I think we have a debt to him about discussing the petristic the early Christian understanding of faith for sacraments to be valid that you it's you you can have all your your different sacraments but without faith that's the initial thing that works within us and you have to have that and argued for that he talked about the the church and understanding that a gathered community of believers with discipline and and that type of a thing we have a thanks for him being able to articulate that you know we see remnants of that kind of coming with Peter Ridman later and that kind of a thing but yeah um he's quite a guy and all that also says that you know it gives me be careful Dean you know the confidence that we can sometimes feel um that we have it all right and we can all look back and say you know you messed up here you messed up there and and I just I'm praying even preparing for this message, Lord, where am I where am I messing up? You know, where am I missing that people can look back and say, "Yeah, Dean, you really missed it here." And so, um, I think that's a lesson in there as well. But very sincere person, definitely impressive. Um, and what he wrote about and lived for. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's a kind of a it's a sobering end to a story, you know. It really is. >> Burned at the stake. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And kind of forgotten. >> Yeah. you know, for as much as he contributed and as much as he did >> in the movement. >> Yeah. >> But also just clearly missing some critical pieces too or disagreeing, I guess. Not not missing but disagreeing. >> Yeah. >> On some critical things. >> It was interesting though because um it was only very recently that they added a a plaque now there in Vienna. Yeah. You know, noting that hey, Hire was executed. We we don't know the exact spot. There's still one piece of the old original city wall that's left. So they put the plaque there. is, you know, probably somewhere in that area. So, he filmed there, you know, for the documentary, which people can go watch. But, um, that was kind of neat where >> that was only recently done. So, maybe maybe his stuff's being kind of rediscovered in a way, >> I think. So, you know, particularly people who like to dig into the the sacraments of the early church, the the way that I mean of the Anabaptists, the the church order, the the structure, the believers baptism, and all these types of things. I found a getting ready for this lecture, I found a Bible school in um I think it's Canada, the Beltsar Hubmire um theology and mission school and I was like >> wow. So someone found it >> and I saw uh I saw a young man on a YouTube video dressed in like a medieval thing giving a speech at a Baptist church talking about how I could imagine how Baptist would really look to him um and and seeing that uh you know >> would would you know correlate a lot with that. Yeah. M >> so certainly again you got to think of the times the hundreds of years that people didn't talk about these things or articulate them that well he put it you know into paper so yeah he's a significant part of that articulation process >> yeah yeah that you know slide you have a lot of these early documents and you know even in the points where we disagree obviously with >> hmire >> it's really important from a historical perspective too just be like these were the issues in the air these were the things being discussed and worked out, you know, kind of trying to reprocess through stuff that was taken for granted, you know, at the time. >> Um, >> wow. >> Is there anything else on this podcast that you would like to cover that that we didn't talk about? >> The times were crazy. We kind of discussed that. I mean, again, 1527, um, Charles the Fifth troops took over the Vatican, um, and killed 20 or 30,000 people, um, massacred a orphanage. Um and and you know the world was falling apart. Um you know this >> Islamic jihad is coming. >> Islamic jihad is coming in. You know the pope is I mean it's it's you know what's happening you know. So it was a >> it was a um it was a time of u the world's ending type of thing you know. >> Well Dean I really appreciate um >> you putting the time and and research into Yeah. Like this I think this is important. You know, we were when we did the the documentary series, you know, we had a section on um the Hutterites, which included a lot of the Hubmire story, you know, that piece, but a lot of it ended up not making the final thing because it's just, you know, it was it was we wanted to keep core to the story we're trying to tell. We're like, man, Hubmire is so fascinating. We got to sit down and turn, you know, all those pieces of script that we didn't film for the documentary sit down and do this episode >> and the works are easy accessible now. This is all >> Yeah, it's freely. Yeah, you can go >> Kindle version for not that much. this whole series. I I bless Is it the Bruterhoff that's doing all that series or? >> Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Excellent. >> I really appreciate their input on this cuz we um been in contact with them and they they hooked us up with a lot of stuff and I just I love seeing like this. Someone put a lot of work into getting this stuff back out there and you put a lot of work into studying it and presenting it today. I >> they made it available and again and now I noticed that in Kindle you could hit a an audio automatically. So I was able to listen to a lot of this uh just to refresh myself. It's been, you know, since even before our trip that I was read some of it. I wanted to get just really understand him from the beginning to the end and it it was it was good. >> Complicated figure. >> Yeah, he is. >> Wow. Yeah. >> Gives us a lot to think about. Well, thank you again for what you shared and the work you put into this. >> Yeah. Thank you for all you're doing, too. >> Thanks for listening to this episode with Dean on Hubmire. There's another significant figure of early Anabaptism, Conrad Rebel. We talked about him a little bit in this episode, but we did a whole interview with John Ruth based on his book that he wrote about Grebble going into who was he and what were the things that were important to him. I think that goes really nicely with some of the things Dean and I talked about today. So, you can find that linked in the description down below. We mentioned the documentary series as well. That's Anabaptist Origins. It's his its own channel, a whole series. It's 10 episodes long where we travel all over Europe telling that story of the first hundred years of the Anabaptist movement. I think you'll really enjoy it. adds a lot of context to the things we were talking about in this interview as well. So, that's all linked in the description. I encourage you to go check that out. Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode. >> [music]