The sustainability paradox: rethinking digital technologies in education

So let's make a start. Welcome everybody to the Association for Learning Technologies Digital Sustainability Special Interest Groups second webinar. Digital sustainability is a fastmoving and complex topic that impacts all of us in our roles in learning, teaching and technology and our students as well. And we want to find out more about how we can use digital technologies in a sustainable way and identify practical actions that we can take to support ourselves, our colleagues and our students. So we welcome Professor Retes Chu today who's going to be sharing his work on the sustainability paradox. Um, my video isn't working today, but I'm Kathleen Cer, one of the SIG co-chairs, and my um, the other co-chair, Paul, my colleague. Excuse me. [clears throat] Do you want to introduce yourself? >> Indeed. Yeah. Hi, everybody. I'm Paul Ael's uh, other co-chair of the digital sustainability sig. >> Thank you. So over this next hour, we're looking forward to learning from Mitesh's expertise and hope that we can share some ideas and experiences with each other as part of a community. So before we start, I wanted to just step through some webinar rules. This webinar is being recorded and it will appear on Alt's YouTube channel. So we ask that people are respectful and collaborative to each other. Communicate openly and critique ideas rather than individuals. That they avoid personal attacks that might be directed towards other attendees or participants. No spamming please, but um useful sharable resources are more than welcomed. And if you have any questions that you might have, please add them to the chat which will be monitored or raise your hand and we'll invite you to speak. So our SIG is really um a safe place for colleagues in the higher education and further education sectors to come together to consider and reflect on what digital sustainability practices really mean in their context. And uh in this space we reflect on um digital sustainability in um all its kind of um meanings. So it could be about pedagogy and the intersection of equality and diversity etc. And um we welcome with open arms um colleagues from across the sector and um we look forward to hearing um your reflections on how the content from today's session can really be taken into your context. >> Thank you Paul. And we also wanted to do a quick plug um for a resource that um the sink have been working on our climate ed tech toolkit and we have version one um now available and this includes five steps that we can take to help influence change at our institutions um and start a conversation looking at ways that we might be able to take action. And this toolkit is one of the resources referred to in the recent JISK and EA um AI and sustainable and sustainability in post16 education guide that was launched a couple of weeks ago. And uh we have a session padlet um that you can access and kind of um add to throughout the session. So you can either uh use the QR code or follow the URL um that's on screen. And in the Padlet, it is um set set up into columns uh that um get you to reflect on and respond to these four questions. So kind of what do you hope to get out of the session today? What's one thing that you'll take away with you? what future events or topics would be useful to you that the SIG could cover or connect with and um there's a space for you to kind of share any open access resources that are uh related to either the session or digital sustainability more more broadly. Uh so you you have a few moments now if you wish to add a response to that first question and um yes we can we can pop a direct link in the chat uh in in a moment. just getting the link. Thank you. And so um I think we are ready to hand over to professor tube and if you have any questions as we said please add them in the chat. Um, Professor Chu, would you like people to ask questions as you go along or shall we set time aside at the end to revisit? >> I don't mind taking questions as we go along. >> Okay. In that case, I shall stop sharing and [clears throat] over to you. >> Thank you. And I have started sharing and I'm hoping you're able to >> Yes. >> see my screen. >> Yeah, that's clear. Thanks. >> Excellent. Well, good morning everyone and uh before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which we meet and pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging. I'm dialing in from Vanjeri country which is Melbourne in Australia. Um it's evening here um 8 8:00 PM. So thank you everyone for taking the time out to attend this session. As I always say in in every session of mine, it'd be good to see some faces. You know, it's like going to a class where people have their cameras off. So if you are comfortable and if your cameras working, be good to see some faces just helps me uh drive some motivation just by looking at your faces. Um otherwise I'm just staring at a blank screen. Um so I am ret. I am the associate dean for engagement and the professor in ICT at Central Queensland University Australia. And today's topic is about the sustainability paradox. um and this topic or when I was approached by Joe um she found my paper and reached out to me. So I think it's it's it's really a pleasure to see that the paper is making an impact. Well, we know it's it's starting to be cited, but when I have colleagues who reach out that they'd like to hear more about this work, it is very pleasing. And I'm pleased to be with colleagues today who are passionate about improving learning through technology. I mean that's what how I look at the association for learning and teaching. So for more than um 20 years I have used and have in the last decade been researching educational technologies. During this time I have seen educational technologies evolve from being an optional to now essential. And what we are now seeing is we take educational technologies for granted. And today I'd like to challenge one of the assumption that many of us probably hold and that assumption is is that whether digital education is really as sustainable as we think. So this presentation is based on a paper that I published. I will provide the the bibliography in the end but I've just got a screenshot of that paper. uh and rather than simply walking through the paper, I'd like us to collectively reflect together on what sustainable digital education actually looks like. Um I Dr. Joanna Brown recently emailed me and I was looking at her email and in her digital signature um her email there was the digital signature there was a line that said to reduce my carbon impact I may send either a heart or a thumbs up emoji instead of an email to acknowledge receipt where a reply isn't needed. And when I looked at that, I thought that was fascinating because what it signals, it actually signals a very tiny behavioral change. And that behavioral change is one emoji, a thumbs up or a heart. What that also translates into is one less email. It also means one less message traveling through computing servers. Individually this might sound or seem insignificant but collectively it's not and that's what we need to think. We need to think of our individual actions and also then see well how are those indiv individual actions going to achieve collective good. Many of us have become very conscious about reducing paper. A few years ago we weren't really thinking about paper but now we've become really conscious. We've become conscious about reducing paper. We've become conscious about uh reducing travel. We've become conscious about reducing waste. But how often do we really think about reducing the environmental footprint of our digital behavior? Uh I think it was last year I wrote an article uh in the Australian Computer Society's um uh magazine. The article focused on whether we should be using please and thank you when we are chatting with with AI chatbots because those extra words also add to the envir add to our environmental footprint. So we need to be considering all of these actions. So I think the assumption that digital equals sustainability um is not always true because we know that digital education or we undoubtedly know that digital education creates benefits and costs. I'm not talking hiring or lowering cost. We'll leave that to the end. But digital education creates benefits and costs. So my argument isn't that digital education is unsustainable. My argument is that we've been asking the wrong question. The question isn't whether digital is sustainable. I think the question we need to ask is under what conditions is dig digital education genuinely sustainable. Um, if you'd like to connect with me, I am on LinkedIn. So, please feel free to connect. I'll also pop the URL in the chat screen. If you'd like to take any screenshots during today's session, if you'd like to discuss anything online on LinkedIn, please feel free to do that. I have just popped in the URL um in the chat screen. So I want you to now ponder over this simple question and the question is whether a face-toface lecture is more sustainable or a 2hour Zoom class. Maybe you want to type your responses in the chat screen. I'm I'm looking at the chat screen. I can see Zoom people. I've just got a response. Zoom. Anyone else? We've got depends, we've got face to face, we've got Zoom. Um, we've got Zoom again depends on how far people travel depends but inclined to think Zoom. Zoom as multitasking. So I'm overwhelmingly I think I'm I'm seeing Zoom and and this is I think it's just common that response that we get about Zoom because most people instinctively choose Zoom because of some of the reasons that I'm also seeing in the chat screen which is that there is no travel there are obviously no printed handouts there's fewer physical resources but what I I told you the answer isn't nearly as simple and I think some of you are already alluding to that because some people said maybe it could change depending on the context and that's where the answer really is it depends because sustainability is much more complicated than simply asking whether people traveled to a physical location and today my purpose is to challenge that assumption that digital automatically equals sustainable So why did I write this paper? And in interestingly before I get to the real reasons, this paper actually started as a Christmas project. Two years ago I had Christmas holidays. One week into the holiday I started getting bored and I gravitated to my towards my computer. And I think that's what was my real motivation. It was just Christmas holiday I had time but obviously you know there's other reasons. So what I've noticed is we often celebrate the sustainability sustainability benefits of digital education but really discuss its environmental and social costs. We also need to consider what are the hidden environmental and social costs. So over the last two decades, digital education has been promoted as a sustainability success story and rightly so because digital learning has opened o opened up opportunities for millions of learners. I mean think about rural students. CEQ University is a regional university. We've got the largest geographic footprint in Australia but we focus on regional students. So we think about rural and regional students, think about working professionals, think about students with disabilities, think about international learners and during co digital education kept universities functioning. So obviously it is something to celebrate no doubt. So this isn't an argument against technology. Instead, I realized that we celebrate these benefits without asking what sits underneath these benefits. What is actually powering our digital education? Where do our devices come from? What sort of natural resources are being used for manufacturing and maintaining those digital devices or digital education at large? um what happens when we replace our digital devices every 3 years and these are the questions that actually led me to write the paper or become the foundation of this paper. So now the sustainability paradox I think this slide summarizes the entire paper because the key contribution here is the sustainability paradox which is that digital education creates genuine educational benefits. It provides greater flexibility. It provides better access. It provides improved participation. But exactly at the same time it also creates environmental costs, greater energy demand, uh increase in electronic waste, um carbon emissions and also it reinforces inequalities and that's where you know I start thinking about the social cost the digital inequality or um uh broadening of digital divide in this instance. There's also issues with accessibility challenges that we see and that's a hidden cost and there's concerns about privacy also. So none of these are uh competing arguments. They're all true simultaneously and that is the paradox that um is the basis of today's paper and that's why I've said here these realities actually coexist. Just looking at the chat screen. Uh nothing no question for me. So uh why digital appears sustainable? We've acknowledged the positives. Digital education can reduce travel. It can reduce paper. It can reduce printing. It can reduce the need for physical space and physical resources. I mean simple example is instead of flying interstate for a meeting we now do it via teams or zooms. That is a genuine environmental benefit. But these visible savings are only one side of the equation. They only tell one side of the story because the invisible costs are much harder to see. So where are those invisible costs? So the hidden cost of digital education are when we log into our learning management system. Nothing appears physical. Everything seems virtual. But we also now need to realize that nothing digital is actually virtual. And I'll repeat that. Nothing digital is virtual. Every online lecture, every uploaded assignment, every streamed recording, every AI prompt requires digital infrastructure which consumes electricity which cons which needs computing servers which needs real computing devices and eventually all of this leads to real electronic waste. So let's consider an example and I'm sure it's it's the same in your end as well. Our universities will refresh laptops every 3 or four years. Where do the old ones go? Can they be repaired? Are they refurbished? Are they reused or do they become e-waste? And these are sustainability questions too that we never ponder over. At least as educators, we are just happy after 3 years we get a new laptop. So these are again questions and what uh this also contributes to is device obsolence because um you know repairability is a problem. So if a device is not repairable, I mean a few years ago I wrote an article about the right to repair and how you know some countries um it's very difficult to um repair devices and especially that manufacturers themselves uh focus on what what's called planned obsolescence. So there is no recourse to repairing. I know the European Union's leading that front in terms of introducing repairability, but a lot of countries it's just not possible. So, you know, everything ends up going to the dump. Um, so here's the invisible infrastructure of digital education and this is probably my favorite slide. When students click, so you've got your student here who clicks submit assignment, they don't see any of this. All they see is a button, the submit button or any button for that matter on their learning management system. Behind those buttons sits an entire digital infrastructure. the learning management system, there's cloud providers, there is data centers, there is electricity consumption, there's cooling systems, there's carbon emissions. And we know that the digital experience seems virtual or as I call it weightless. But the infrastructure is not weightless. All of this is infrastructure. There's growing demand now globally for data centers. We know how people are resisting data centers in their neighborhoods because I think they're experiencing the weight of these rising data centers in their own neighborhoods which are contributing to rising electricity cost increased water consumption. So the the the the infrastructure is not weightless and that's why I'm calling it the invisible infrastructure and that or this invisible infrastructure is central to the sustainability paradox because we should really be thinking about all of these things also and that's why we need to look at all of this from a life cycle perspective which is something I've also mentioned in fact the whole paper is focused around that life cycle perspective. So looking beyond the classroom, most discussions about educational technology will begin here, sustainability begins much earlier before even students open their laptops because it actually begins with mining which is resource extraction. It begins with manufacturing devices. It also then begins with transporting. You see how you know each stage there is consumption. There's transporting your devices across the world and then usage then cloud and data centers then the issue of repairing and use and then e-waste. So one laptop that the student opens in a classroom actually tells a much bigger picture much bigger sustainability story than simply opening the laptop or opening your PowerPoint or opening Microsoft Word. So when we are thinking about sustainability the focus has to be across the entire life cycle not only just in the classroom. So um digital education. So I've framed the paper around three United Nations sustainable development goals. The focus on quality education because you know we obviously want to provide improved access um and better learning opportunities and technology clearly supports it. We saw that in those first few slides. We want to focus on reduced inequality which is UNSDG10. uh although technology can reduce inequalities or also widen them and uh SDG-13 which is climate action and technology can reduce some emissions while creating others. So I think the challenge that I had was choosing amongst all of the UN SDGs and see what am I going to focus on. So I found that these three were good for me from a life cycle perspective and balancing these three and that's what I've tried to do in the paper as well. So now the social sustainability paradox. So sustainability isn't environmental alone. It's also social because I mean imagine two students, one has fiber internet, a new laptop, a quiet study space. The other is a rural regional student who relies on a mobile phone to connect to the internet, shares one computer with their three siblings, and has unreliable internet. So technology is not equally accessible as well but we give the same assessment to both students and the question we then need to ask is that equitable and I'm not saying you know we have to focus on the fact that uh we have to design different sets of assessments for those two different groups of students but we have to make some adjustments somewhere to assist because it is also our role to try and um reduce that that gap because you know technology can obviously improve access also but unless we are careful like I've just hopefully demonstrated it can also reinforce inequality so our focus or challenges actually is internet connectivity device affordability digital literacy accessibility impact on wellbeing, privacy and surveillance and sustainable for whom? I mean, you remember at the start I asked people to turn their cameras on? It's it's a very it's a it's a it's a difficult question actually because I know it's always you know there could be situations where people are not able to turn cameras on because of their own um or issues you know whatever that issue might be. So I have to be mindful and we are all mindful as educators as well because we are aware of that well-being aspect also. So uh moving on to the next slide which is emerging technologies make the paradox even bigger. So more problems now because since writing this paper the conversation has changed dramatically. Artificial intelligence has become mainstream. You know AI is incredibly exciting. Don't get me wrong. I use it myself. Many of us do. But every AI generated image, every chatbot response, every video generation depends on enormous computing infrastructure. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use AI. It means we should use AI thoughtfully. Like I said, you know, those use of those words please and thank you have no meaning for a chatbot. But on the other hand, I there is an argument that okay, if we are not going to be polite with AI chatbots, they're going to learn the same language that we use with them. So, you know, it's it's an argument that we don't seem to be winning also. And this is not me saying don't use please, thank you, sorry. It's Sam Olman, CEO of OpenAI, who said it adds additional energy costs to their infrastructure. So again it comes back to the fact that we should use AI thoughtfully. Sometimes we keep probing AI and AI has this habit of you know it's like and don't get me wrong I'm using those word. It's like a master slave relationship. AI never says anything back to you. It's always yes yes yes yes. So we have to be mindful of the significant computing power energy and infrastructure that these technologies create whether that's genai whether that's any other language model yeah image generation AI video generation or blockchain so moving towards um sustainable digital education. So what should institutions actually do? The paper suggests several practical directions. One of those directions is developing sustainability plans, investing in energy um efficient infrastructure, purchasing devices that are designed for longer life cycles. You know, if the organization's policy says 3 years and everyone's going and changing it in 3 years, whether there's a problem or not because it's in the policy, the device gets changed. And how many people actually say no when you're being given a a new laptop, although your current one's working well? So, it's a question we need to ask, but unfortunately, remember, it's part of the organizational policy. So, maybe someone has to revisit the policy also. And that's where you know sustainability planning u plays an important role or purchasing devices that are designed for longer life cycles. Um supporting repair rather than replacement. Uh reducing digital inequalities. Developing responsible AI governance is is also paramount here. And none of these involve abandoning technology. The each of these initiatives that I mention here actually just focus on using technology more wisely. U anything in the chat screen. I can see some discussion happening. So just look if you have a question please feel free to stop me. I will come we'll have a discussion in the end. But if there's any burning questions. >> Oh, it's okay. I don't think there's any any particular questions at the moment. Yeah. >> Thanks, Paul. I can see some buzz in the chat, so I wasn't sure. Thank you. So, um, what does this mean for for for educators? And this is a question that I get commonly asked. What can I actually do? Fortunately, quite a lot. We can ask better questions as educators. Does this technology improve learning? Number one. Now, introducing technology for the sake of introducing technology not a good idea. So, number one, as I've said here, use technology intentionally. Avoid technology for technologies sake. Because a question that we need to ask is, are we using technology simply because it's available or is it actually improving the learning experience? Um also consider whether an activity could be made simpler. Can we reduce unnecessary digital complexity in a process? Can we help our students become better digital citizens? Because as educators we influence thousands of of students. Consider the accessibility and inclusion issues that I mentioned. Extend device life cycles where possible. Again, this is a discussion. I mean, I've heard a few people say, "Well, I don't need a new laptop." They'll tell their IT department saying, "Well, I I'll hold on for a year because I have no issue." So, again, it becomes a personal call. Discuss digital sustainability with students because students also have to be aware of the increasing digital footprint of every interaction that they're having with a chatbot, for example. Everyone's using chatboards. I I rarely see people say no, we are not using AI chatbots. So our discussions with those chatboards or our usage has to be more informed and use AI responsibly and transparently. So since this paper like I said earlier also the conversation has evolved rapidly and that doesn't mean that the sustainability paradox has become less important. In fact, I think it's become more important because universities globally are rapidly adopting AI. So the question now is how sustainable is generative AI? Maybe that's a question for another paper. Universities, like I said, are rapidly globally adopting AI. Should environmental impact influence air adoption? Because governments are investing heavily in digital transformation. How can universities measure digital sustainability? And students increasingly expect digital learning. So the question now isn't should we use AI, but the question is how do we use it responsibly and sustainability? Should sustainability become part of a digital strategy? And this is a question that a lot of educational institutions don't necessarily ponder over or have a good response to about having sustainability as part of their digital strategy. So, uh this paradox like I said earlier on is becoming even more relevant in in today's environment. Then there's three questions for all of us. Question that I'd like to leave you with. Are our digital strategies also sustainability strategies? Because we have to consider the long-term impact. Uh are they different things? Are we evaluating technology be beyond pedagogy? Is should our focus well obviously it is on pedagogy but are we even thinking about technology how it should be used how should it be used sustainability also how can we design learning that is educationally effective socially equitable because of our focus on that sustainability paradox and environmentally responsible and look there are no easy answers I don't have answers but They are conversations that are worth having. Each one of these each one of these could actually become the basis of other research papers also. And when we when we are designing learning I mean it's a question again I want you to think how many of you think about the sustainability impact. A lot of people don't because we are only concerned about ensuring that our learning outcomes get assessed. We are insured on focusing that our user design looks good, the pages are well easy to navigate. That's what our focus is. I have a colleague who when they're designing their uh um user interface or mood for that matter, they also focus on the colors that they're using not just from an accessibility perspective but also how much computing power because you know certain colors consume um greater power. So now I'd like to finish with one thought and that is digital education isn't inherently sustainable. But neither is it inherently unsustainable. Its sustainability will depend on the decisions we make, on the choices we take. Technology itself won't create a sustainable future. It's people who will. It's educators like you and me who will. It's institutions who will. And uh hopefully, you know, conversations like the ones that we having now will help us move in that direction. And we should or we need to move beyond asking should we use technology because this is the question that still people keep asking. The question has to be how can we use technology responsibly, equitably and sustainability. So with that I am happy to take questions. I'd be delighted to hear your thoughts, answer any questions. Uh that's the paper that um I focused my today's discussion on. Um and happy to take questions. Thank you. Thank you so much. As you can see, I hope there's lots of um applause in on the screen. Um so yeah, we um open the floor to questions. Just please do um I think Zoom has a raising hands feature. You can tell how often I use Zoom by asking that question. Um but please do uh go for it. >> Hey Redes. Hi Duchant, how are you? >> Good, good. How are you? >> Thanks. Um, it's about uh one of the conversation in chat box about turning on the video. I know we like to see the reaction and this is how we make it more interactive. I do the same while I take sessions you know um but obviously we were more inclined towards it will use lot of bandwidth and data processing of image being transferred to the server and receiving end. So what would be your comments on that? >> That's a very good question, Duchant. One that I haven't thought of because my most immediate reaction usually is turn the cameras on so you know uh there's more engagement. I've never given and you you raised a very interesting point because you know you you you're now saying well I'm considering the environmental impact. So well yes you I mean the reason is the reasoning is very logical >> and uh I will not dispute it there's no way no one can dispute it but remember we also have to when we are thinking of our learners we also have to focus on the pedagogical benefits >> and that's where our discussion is well we want to see everyone so you know we know what everyone's doing uh I can be enthused by looking at people and vice versa. So yeah, good question. Thanks. >> Antonia has got an interesting comment there. It's interesting to weigh up sustainability versus engagement. Yeah, indeed. Yes, indeed. And especially given the example that Duchans just posed and Duchan literally I haven't I never thought of that aspect. >> It was actually raised by someone Malone if I'm not sure saying it wrong. We are just discussing that but it's an interesting thing. I just said it loud. >> Okay. Thank you. Any other question? >> Uh go for it Mira. Yeah. >> Hi Mera. Yeah go for it ma. >> Hello. I'm really sorry I lost connection. So I missed the last question as well. So hopefully this didn't cover it. Thank you for for the talk. I really enjoyed it. Taking loads of notes and it's really really thoughtprovoking and I it made me think about something. I listened to a podcast called Your Undivided Attention and something in the last episode I listened to was that um and it was Azar Ratkin. He said that um the best of intentions are eaten up by the worst of incentives. And I just wondered and I know that you you said you just said you don't have the answers. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this. Um I was just thinking so which incentives need to be created good incentives and which bad incentives need to be removed. Where where do we start with this? I think the the the biggest start is focusing on sustainability planning and organizations don't do that unfortunately don't do it quite well and that's where the discussion should start and that could and see sometimes what happens in in educational institutions especially is we're waiting for planning to start top down approach. It could actually be bottom up. It could be having that conversation with a team of educators that you're working for and say, "What can we do to help?" I mean, one of that simple example and I'm I'm sure this is the third time I'm saying it is that issue of laptop. You know, like I said, we happily take a new laptop after every 3 years because it's new. There's no problem with our existing laptop. But and sometimes it also gets pushed because it's part of policy. So your IT department will say well we have to change it every 3 years and that's the stage when we say well someone should look at the policy change the policy because if there's no problem with the device we are adding to this unnecessarily unnecessary environmental burden and if we can help reduce that burden then we are doing our part. So I hope that yeah look I think sustainability planning is very important. Thank you. Um Dominic, I can see your story. Yeah. >> Uh uh thanks very much uh Retesh. That was a really uh fascinating um presentation. I'm really delighted to see people starting to actively talk and write and think about this uh sort of issue. Um hoping you can you can hear me all right with my setup in the office here. Y >> um I've got kind of a a bundle of thoughts that your uh talk has raised with me. I just wanted to kind of dump them onto the table and see if it gives you any reflections at the end rather than a question if I may. >> Um one is that um this is quite a big picture thought. So uh we talk about um climate we talk about carbon emissions and we associate them with the rise of industrialization. >> [clears throat] >> um we look back at the the charts that go back to 1850 when we started raising you using coal and all this kind of stuff and we could probably trace similar parallels with the rise of learning theories as well you know as industrialization has happened we've learned more about how people learn um we can also say that the digital revolution AI is another turn of it is another kind of turn of the this particular cycle >> [sighs] >> Um, and in the earlier phases of the industrial revolution when we started getting an understanding of how people learn, we didn't really think very much about the wider environmental impact of building factories, you know, this kind of stuff. Yeah. We've subsequently come to realize a century on that it was also problematic as good as it brought people out the fields. you know, a as we digitize our societies much further, it's also an opportunity and the likes of you are doing doing this to sort of look before we loop much more perhaps [clears throat] than we have done in the past. So, I'm trying to I suppose in inject a posit bit of positivity in here. Um, two other thoughts I've had just to add to that. Um, one is just about the profound complexity of what you raise. Um, politically we're in a moment where uh there there's a lot of appetite for sort of simple messaging solutions, you know, easy ways to to uh uh to be to bring down the cost of living, etc. And um these are things that just cannot be addressed simply uh really in very easy ways at all because you know you're looking right across the piece at all sorts of different disciplines and you know associated systems and structures. And the third point and then I'll finish you you you mentioned planning in your response to mirror there. Um, I'm reminded as well of perhaps a parallel with the rise of digital accessibility. So, when we first started making websites and getting excited about the fact that we could put all of this information out there, we didn't really think that widely about bringing more people into the digital environment until legislation forced us. And I wonder whether that might be a precedent for how we might move forward in uh in a digital sustainability context as well. So that's more than enough. I'll I'll I'll leave it there and see if you feel like you want to respond to anything. >> Um so there's there's there's a lot in there to digest. I rather than answering everything I think one of the responses that I'd like to give is that rather than presenting simple do this not that message it's important to encourage critical thinking. You talked about the cost of living. You know, one of the biggest challenges in digital sustainability is that there are rarely simple answers. And that's what we we all really need to understand. You know, a a technology that reduces environmental impact may have social or ethical implications. So it's it becomes a tradeoff because it's possible that while a more accessible you may have a more accessible solution but that more accessible solution is going to consume more resources using Dshian's example of let's turn the he we'll turn the webcam off because that'll mean reducing the amount of resources being consumed. So you know it becomes a trade-off then accessibility engagement cost uh carbon footprint. So I think for me the goal isn't perfection when it comes to digital sustainability. It's about balancing our environmental, social, economic and educational impacts together. Dominic, if that makes sense. And you know when when we talking about um complexity, I think we all need to under we we we need to understand that oversimplifying sustainability is not going to help. you know, we we don't want to oversimplify sustainability. Instead, what we need to do is we need to equip our learners, students to recognize these trade-offs and make evidenceinformed decisions. So, Dominic, I hope that helps. But yeah, look, there's >> Yeah, that's [laughter] >> I'm coming back to there was a question from Antonia, I think. Um >> yeah and um Antonia's got um the hand raised as well. So >> she had she was asking integ sorry Antonio go ahead. >> Oh no no no worries. It was a different um different question. Um but it was more going back to what you were talking about. Oh and by the way I use they them pronouns. Um but uh it was more going back to the question of AI and saying that it's not inherently unsustainable. Um, and I was just wondering in terms of the direct difference between generative AI and how it has been proven to not only be unsustainable but also inaccurate. Is there more of an argument around digital learning about cailing generative AI and using different sources of AI ethically and more the ethics around generative AI and how that affects sustainably? So is there more of an argument around not using Gen AI >> in that? >> Antonio, you're you you're asking a person who's a big advocate for Gen AI. >> Okay. >> Every session that I've done about Gen AI, I usually start with that that question that you asked the boards long time ago. So that question about whether we should be using genai we well if you go and speak to anyone in the industry in any industry everyone's using genai so why are we talking about prohibiting our students from using it we really have to find ways and in Australia the discussion now the reg through from a regulatory body is focusing on secure assessments because we are saying well we should be using AI but we also need to ensure that there is at least one assessment that is secure. So yeah. So yeah, I mean we're not going to stop using Gen AI, but you also had I think an another question about that Moodle versus Blackboard. Was that >> Yes. >> Yeah. I was wondering >> if all-in-one platforms like Moodle, like Blackboard uh have less uh of an impact sustainably than ad hoc platforms like Teams meetings, like third party platforms and if everything is allin-one, does that have a posit Sorry, that's my cat. Does that have a positive impact? See when whenever you think of technology I think an integrated solution is always is always better from a sustainable perspective any integrated solution whether that's mood or blackboard or whether that's any genai tool because when when we are thinking about sustainability we have to think about the the the all the costs the so including the social cost the technology cost the usage cost so anything that gets that's integrated in technology and this is probably a more of a technological answer here is it will reduce fragmentation. It'll reduce duplication. It'll uh provide or there will be better support that we could provide and it will also reduce the cognitive load for students but you're never going to have that because competition is alive in the market. You will never have one tool. It's like me asking every journal publisher why do we have so many different tools when I'm submitting my journal articles why don't why don't we why doesn't everyone agree on one but yeah so there there are benefits to it and uh I think if we can have one well integrated learning management system it will obviously be sustainable you know from a cost social environmental perspective but in reality that will never happen and but when you think from it from an organizational perspective yes because rather than investing in two or three it's like zoom or teams I know a lot of institutions are still using zoom and teams >> mhm >> why not just one but then you know >> as in like is that more like red tape of like this is how things are done like if if you're saying arguably it would be sustainable and it would be easier >> it's not going to get done. Is that more like that's just like the red tape of how things work? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> And look academics because we well I speak for myself at least a lot of academics like me during co started with zoom. We got so familiar with zoom that the transition to teams wasn't as seamless or at least team meetings. We are still using it as a chat tool but not for meetings as much. But remember again if we think of it from a sustainability strategic planning perspective and if someone says all right we're going to have one tool we are left with no choice but to learn and unlearn and learn again. >> So yeah >> thank you. So there was a question in the chat from Ela Harrison about um so there's a digital sustainability working group starting at their institution and people are starting to become kind of more aware of the um it it as a as a a concept digital sustainability I suppose and um they asked do you have any thoughts on effective ways to spread the word about the social and environmental impacts of technology especially in the context of HE or higher education. >> Excellent. Um Ela that's very encouraging to hear. Um so I think well done on on that initiative itself effective ways to spread the word. Um well I think it's important that you start with practices that people can relate to whether they're student or staff. It could be things such as you know their own email habits. It could be device life cycles. It could be the responsible use of AI. So start with everyday practices and also try and focus on embedding um digital sustainability into existing activities. For example, you know, as part of your group, maybe get someone to look at the procurement aspect of technologies in the organization because no one focuses on the procurement and that's very important aspect of this device life cycle management that I mentioned and that often gets overlooked. Focus on staff development as well because professional development again is important when you're talking digital sustainability. try and pick local examples of where sustainable in initiatives have worked because when people see examples of initiatives that have worked in other institutions there will be greater adoption in your own organization as well. So I hope that helps. But look, always good to tell good stories. That's very important. People like to listen to good stories. So wherever you can find best practices and case studies, you know, develop a one pager, share it with people on a monthly basis so people know that others are doing it, we could also do it. >> Thank you. I I haven't noticed any other questions in the chat, I don't think, unless I've missed them. But um if there are any um final questions, we've probably got time for one more and then um I will kind of gently wrap up the the session if that's okay. >> Any other questions? I'm happy to take question. There's something in the chat. This is already in action. China AI talks. Can we innovate sustainably? Yes, Dominic. That's the whole idea. But look, if there's no discussion around innovating sustainability, it ain't going to happen. So the discussion becomes a very important part of all of this. And I'm glad we are all having this discussion today because I'm hoping that it gives everyone something to to think about and get to work. Well, you're already at work. Sorry, it's not evening for me here. So I'm thinking get to work but you're you're there at work and say well what am I going to do in my own practice? How am I going to influence my students? Am I going to talk to someone about this? Because like I said it's those small stick steps that will help and and Paul before you start wrapping up I have a small request if if you don't mind if you can turn your cameras on. I'm quite active on LinkedIn. I'd like to take a screenshot so I can post it on LinkedIn. And if you've got any comments, feedback, please come to my LinkedIn post tomorrow or I actually I'll I'll make sure I post that tonight and leave your feedback on that post. So, if you could please turn your cameras on. I'm going to take a quick screenshot. If you're not comfortable, that's fine, too. See, it's so good to see faces. All of a sudden, University of Liverpool pops up on my screen. I can see lots of smiling faces, and it looks so good. It comes back to the whole aspect of engagement versus cameras off. So I can see some cameras turning on. That is excellent. I am going to take a screenshot soon. >> Are you going to give us warnings so that we're not blinking? >> Yes. So I'll go I'll 3 2 1 >> 3 2 1 >> Like like a school photo. That was that was wonderful. Thank you. >> Thank you everyone for your time. I really appreciate Alt having me. Thank you Joanna, Kathleen, Paul and Mave as well for having me. And look, if there's anything I can help you with, if anyone wants to get in touch, maybe you have a research idea that you'd like to progress any other collaboration or you'd like to invite me to a university to come and have a chat about other topics as well. If you go to my LinkedIn, you will see the sort of work that I do. So I'm happy to come along and have that conversation as well. Thank you everyone and have a lovely day. Over to you Paul. >> Yeah, thank you so much for s such a wonderful talk and thank you everybody for your time and input and thoughts. The conversation's been really rich and um just a reminder uh to go to our Padlet to kind of post your reflections there and we'll be sharing um the the kind of the themes and outputs from that um via our uh LinkedIn page as well. Thank you, Kathleen, for just putting the Padlet link in the chat again. Um, and we will be sharing the uh link to this recording once it's made available on the Alt YouTube channel as well. So, just uh once more, thank you so much everybody. Really appreciate your time today and have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Bye.