The SHOCKING TRUTH About The KETO DIET | Dom D'Agostino on Health Theory

episode with Dom Deastino. We discuss how the ketogenic diet can be used to treat Alzheimer's, why ketones are a way better fuel source than glucose, why the military is implementing keto for soldiers, and how an insecure kid came to be known as the king of keto. Hey everybody, welcome to Health Theory. Today's guest is Domino, PhD. He is a neuroscientist and physiologist who's pretty much established himself as the king of keto. He's also a researcher who's not only helped some of the world's most extraordinary athletes push their limits, but he's also worked with cutting edge organizations such as NASA and the US military to develop protocols to help ultra elite operators thrive in some of the most hostile conditions imaginable. not one to just sit on the sidelines. He himself has gone through some of these protocols, including becoming a full-fledged aquinaut by spending 10 full days underwater. And um what I want to know is it would be pretty easy for you at this point to just sit back, do some research. What drives you to do things like spending 10 days underwater? Uh well, I've always had an interest in environmental extremes and pushing the limits, uh you know, outside of academia, outside of my kind of normal wheelhouse to go out in the field and experiment with the things that we're doing in the lab and on rats and mice and in cell culture, see the real world applications when it comes to implementation. I was focused on how our brain controls our physiology. So that was really the main focus of my PhD work. I transitioned into studying why the brain actually has seizures. So the mechanisms and sort of the molecular mechanisms, why we have seizures under those conditions. And as I moved along in that research, it became more interesting to me to develop uh not only how to predict these seizures, why they occur, but to develop mitigation strategies. And I discovered that the ketogenic diet was used when drugs fail. And uh and that I didn't know that. I thought the ketogenic diet was a fat diet. I thought it was I just associated it with Atkins or diabetic keto acidosis. And then I discovered that ketone esters were being studied by DARPA for war fighter performance enhancement. So and the military organization I was dealing with, the Office of Navy Research, did not like the ketogenic diet. So it sent me down a path to develop things that could circumvent the restrictions of the diet to elevate blood ketones to confer that neuroprotective effect, you know, under certain conditions where you can rapidly be in a state of ketosis and then do a dive or, you know, if you have traumatic brain injury or areas, you know, situations where you'd have seizures, you could rapidly implement that. That started my my career path. Why didn't they like the diet too slow? in terms of getting into ketosis. Uh it was it's thought that military personnel at the time if you put them on a ketogenic diet it would decrease their performance their physical and maybe even cognitive performance and it was very hard to implement like the military has MREs they have they already have the food covered and it all depended on the diet which was very hard to follow but a ketone esester or exogenous ketone supplementation could rapidly induce it within 30 minutes and then get your ketone levels up. You need beta hydroxybutyrate and accetoacetate and maybe your listeners know about the ketogenic diet right uh to certain threshold and you need to do that very quickly before going into emission. So that's sort of the idea is to circumvent the dietary restriction but also have tight control. So you're using a metabolite that your body already makes uh elevating it to some extent uh artificially although they're kind of bio identical to what we have and uh you're elevating it to levels that literally change the neuropharmacology of your brain. Like it's shifting brain energy metabolism. It's shifting the glutamate to GABA ratio. It's shifting you know various neurotransmitter systems to have an anti-convulsant effect. And it's also giving your brain a source of energy that you could probably say is objectively uh superior to glucose. So just by that's going to be a pretty controversial statement. So why is it superior to glucose? Well, I could use the example of the working perfused heart system where you literally have a beating heart outside of the body. But you can give it a variety of fuels and you can look at hydraulic efficiency in the presence of glucose. Glucose and insulin, ketones, ketones and insulin. And it was discovered that the hydraulic efficiency of the heart is enhanced when it's burning ketones relative to a fuel like glucose. So there were some studies and they need to be re reproduced in brain cells, but studies in the heart suggested that it was a superior fuel. and the heart and the brain in particular are very good utilizers of of ketones. And that really fascinated me that there was this alternative energy substrate that our body uses under periods of fasting, but the only way to elevate that in the blood is with prolonged fasting or starvation uh or this weird, you know, ketogenic diet that was very strict. And that was the place I was in a little over 10 years ago when you know I was interested in this as a neuroprotective anti-seizure approach. So how was I going to package it and pitch it to uh the government essentially to fund a program to to look into this? The science was you couldn't really argue with it from a an anti-seizure point of view. It was a very legitimate anti-seizure neuroprotective strategy. But I just had to kind of conceive of a way to implement it uh in a practical way kind of out in the field. And that began my sort of experimenting with the ketogenic diet and dozens of different types of, you know, ways to induce ketosis over time. The way that you're talking about it is is actually helping me understand. feel like I have a pretty robust understanding of ketogenics, but hearing the way that you're talking about it, I'd never heard the thing about the efficiency um of the heart, the ability uh to create more ATP per molecule of oxygen. Like that's really it's another fuel. It's the fourth macronutrient if you will, like I like to call it that ketones. You have you know carbohydrates as a fuel, protein of course for rebuilding and also to some extent a fuel uh fat and then fat derived ketones. But now we have ketones that are in and of itself, you know, can be, you know, given as a fuel and they are a metabolic, they're a calorie containing substance that your body can use for energy. We're just at the cusp of understanding the real world applications. We have this technology and we have to figure out, you know, how to best use it. what form is best, what's bioavailable, what the dosages would be, what the applications are, the tolerability, even the safety of these things all need to be and that's why uh I'm kind of deep into that research and but we don't really have any agenda. We just I just want to find out what works, you know, uh maybe other people have all their eggs in one basket for a particular ketone formulation. uh but we're just trying to figure out you know we know there are infinite amount of ketone salts and even even different types of ketone esters that can be developed. There was a news sort of circulating around at the time in Tampa that Dr. Mary Newport was using uh MCT oil, coconut oil and then later ketone esters to sort of manage the Alzheimer's symptoms of her husband. So, I became interested in using ketogenic fats, you know, into the ketogenic diet and really went down the path of exploring and understanding exogenous ketones, too. Let's talk about that. So, lab Yeah, for sure. Alzheimer's is becoming super terrifying. Um, someone that I know and care deeply about uh has their mother is struggling with Alzheimer's. My grandmother-in-law passed away from complications due to Alzheimer's. So, why does it work? How do you use it in somebody's life? Because they're going to be super resistant to being compliant, especially because they don't understand what's happening, right? So, why are you making me eat all this stuff? I want to eat a Snickers bar. The ideology of Alzheimer's is largely unknown and it's kind of controversial. But I think that lifestyle factors, particularly associated with the gut and and also inflammation. So, neuroinflammation is almost like an attack on the brain. uh it was has been described that Alzheimer's disease is type three diabetes and that the brain is insulin resistant and a hallmark characteristic of people with Alzheimer's disease is if you do a glucose PET scan they have hypo uh metabolism of the brain and ketones are a way to help restore brain energy metabolism in the face of impaired glucose utilization in the brain. The only sort of the standard of care is the ketogenic diet because the ketones go around the glucose transporter to give energy to the mitochondria. The ketones can go around pyuvate dehydrogenase complex to actually stimulate the metabolic pathways to make ATP. So the two pathways are distinct enough that if one gets damaged, you can still go the other way. Yeah. There's glucose hypom metabolism in meaning under metabolism metabolism. Yeah. in patients who have Alzheimer's disease that is known that you don't people don't argue that what what people argue is uh what led to the initiation of Alzheimer's disease so glucose hypom metabolism may actually contribute to the production or processing of amalloid plaques and and ultimately towel plaques that form in the brain over time uh the breakdown of these proteins are is a very energy dependent pathway or process right So if the brain is kind of starved of energy, it can't undergo normal proteolytic pathways and enzyatic pathways that it normally does, right? So these the processing of these proteins tend to accumulate in the brain. As we age, our glucose metabolism in the brain goes down, but ketone metabolism does not go down. So glucose is having a problem getting in. It's having a problem being metabolized through uh for glucose oxidation in the mitochondria where ketones readily cross membranes through different transporters, monocaroxyic acid transporters and it's it's a fuel that can be more readily utilized uh by neurons and can sort of rescue in the way uh the metabolic activity and help restore it to normal function. And when you restore normal metabolic function, you balance out sort of brain homeostasis is restored and the energy of the brain is also dependent upon making neurotransmitter systems. So you tend to boost up all these neurotransmitter systems in addition to accelerating ATP production if you give a metabolic substrate like ketones which uh in brains of of people who have Alzheimer's disease can use readily whereas glucose they can't. Everyone with advanced Alzheimer's disease typically has a glucose hypom metabolism. With that in mind, I would say that people who do have advanced Alzheimer's disease, probably only a third of them respond in a robust fashion to a metabolic intervention like nutritional ketosis. And in the beginning, I was thinking that this would sort of be the end all beall for for Alzheimer's disease that if you elevate ketones into the one to two to three millimmer range, it's going to have a positive effect. And it usually does, but the the people who are like hyper respponders to this are kind of going to be uh at most maybe 20 to 30%. They're going to have an objective increase in uh scores like the many mental status tests or the clock test or things like that. Um and the others just probably won't respond. Even though glucose hypom metabolism is a consequence of Alzheimer's disease, not everyone will respond favorably and robustly to a metabolic intervention. Target energy. I hate that answer. It's true. And so that we have to deal with it. But now I'm going to ask a really hard question. Yes. Okay. So let's say that your mom tomorrow is diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Yeah. What do you do on a day-to-day basis? Where do you put her in uh around the clock care? What what are you feeding her? uh if she's refusing it, are we like, you know, we tying down the arms and spoon feeding? Do we get the an IV drip? Like what are we doing? Uh well, you look at like where they're starting from and what are their food choices? Because there are some people who just simply won't change their diet. I mean, their diet is part of their quality of life. And what would you really do at that moment? Like for real, what you know your mom's resistant. She's not going to change her diet. Like what other options do we have? like assume the most I would have an intervention like I would you know bring the family together and say we know this about you we know that if you do this it will produce this outcome what if it's past that point of like being able to rationalize with them though well I I think implementation now is so much easier than it was 5 10 years ago you know MCT oil exogenous ketone supplementation ketone esters so there are tools that are available that can be tried one at a time to ease that person into something. And then you can, you know, you want to do an assessment of that person's sort of activity, mental, cognitive status before, during, and after various uh things are are added to that protocol. And uh and it's likely that's not it's going to be one thing that's even going to be helpful. That's going to be a combination of things used together. and whether or not that moves the needle is going to be dependent on that patient because so let's walk through some of those specific things that we try. I would start, you know, if they're willing to make the changes and they personally believe that this system is going to work. Even if it doesn't work, I think it would make it work. It would make it work to some from a like placebo effect. I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. And if they want to implement it, I would go towards a uh a lower carbohydrate diet. Would you just lower carbs? Are you eliminating carbs? Like how low are we talking? Uh well, you got to look at like what their diet is right now. Maybe the first step would just be elevating their ketones by any means possible that we know. So from my perspective, the easiest way to do it is to use something like uh an exogenous ketone formulation that can elevate your your ketone levels to uh one to two to 3 millmer where we know that amount of energy in the blood will be supplying the brain with a source of fuel. And then you kind of can sit back and see objectively through tests if that has any effect. All right, I'm going to throw out a few things that I think is um in that answer, but I just want to really put a fine point on it. So, like you said, we're going to reduce carbohydrates. I'm assuming we're killing sugar. The first step would be to just give the brain an alternative form of energy and reduce glucose and insulin spikes as much as possible because that can contribute to insulin resistance. Cut out sugar as much as possible or processed carbohydrates. If they're eating two 300 grams a day, you want to bring that down to under 100 grams a day of lower glycemic carbohydrates, essentially vegetables, and and go from there. But if you abruptly take out glucose from the diet of someone who's, you know, drinking lots of sugary drinks and things like that, that may initially cause even a greater deficit in cognitive function because your brain is being fueled off glucose and may take a while to uh to induce the adaptations associated with transporting the ketones, utilizing the ketones, and switching your brain to an alternative form of energy. Evolutionarily speaking, we are hardwired to use that for fuel, but there are adaptations that happen over time that optimize the brain and the body's ability to use that fuel uh efficiently. So, you have to kind of stick with it and elevate that fuel in the blood so it will ultimately get to the brain. There's no argument about that. And then allow that to happen for at least I say two months. and then to firmly evaluate if this is a valid therapy. All right, so sticking on this line of sort of personal dietary protocols, um I'm obsessed with trying to live forever and I know that I'm fighting a very uphill battle at this point. So if you just had to get me to 120, what does that idealized protocol for longevity look like? to live as long as pos well I might go I'm going to go out of my r and say probably focus on relationships and your support network I would actually say yeah that would probably be one of the most important if you just look at the blue now going back into like what you understand at the physiological level why is that so important what's happening your relationships will change the neuropharmacology of your brain it will change you know your u in a way that's neuroprotective Absolutely. I mean, just by decreasing your your stress, allowing yourself maybe more creative downtime instead of always having to be on or in a fight orflight mode, you know, living in a city. So, I think and some people ask living in a city. What? Well, we were just came from New York City maybe last week and uh and that if you were to monitor, for example, my heart rate variability or my stress levels that that would push my physiology to a state that is not conducive to living forever. So, I think everybody's everyone's a unique metabolic entity. Things are going to work different for different people and some people thrive off that. Some people, you know, that releases their dopamine, that drive, that fast life. But I think you need to find out what kind of works for you. But most importantly, surround yourself uh among people who are supporting you. And I think from an evolutionary perspective, that's going to be really important to have that because if you're if you don't have that support system, you're going to probably in a be in a chronic state of stress. And lowering stress from a psychological standpoint may be as more or important than it is from a physiological standpoint. You know, we know psychologically we can impact our physiology. That's what I studied, you know, in grad school. The neural control of autonomic regulation. If your sympathetic system is dominant, then you're going to be in trouble, you know, over time. So, I would focus on that and really nailing down nutrition, exercise, getting outdoors. One a colleague of mine, uh, Dr. Susan Massino just got a fellowship at Harvard studying basically nature as a therapy, right? So actually uh going back to nature and living in nature to to basically uh restore and enhance our psychological health uh mental hygiene if you will. So there are things that we can kind of control um and then there's things outside of our control. So genetics right I don't think we are necessarily destined to our genetic uh you know our genetics in general we know that for example beta hydroxybutyrate has an epigenetic function by by functioning as something called a histone dicetylase inhibitor it can actually change the activation of genes that when kicked on can confer a a benefit over time resilience against stress do you think there's anything useful that people should be testing um for in their own genetics to understand like genomic eating and things like that. Is there a viable test? Yeah, that's I'm not fully convinced at this point that that is something that could uh be leveraged right now. You know, do a genetic testing based on our 23me data if that's what you're talking about to do a nutritional prescription prescription based on that data. So, uh, my wife is, for example, a a pretty good carb burner. So, I know genetically, I think she's kind of set up, uh, to metabolize, utilize, and be carbohydrate tolerant, if you will. And other people, undoubtedly from various geographical regions, may maybe um the Native American population, for example, uh, are very carbohydrate intolerant. even if their calories are maintained, their glycemic response or insulin response to a given amount of carbohydrates uh is much different than someone else who tolerates carbohydrates well. So I think that's a really important uh consideration. So people really do need to self-experiment and study and not just keep eating a particular diet or particular foods and and feeling uh fatigue, lethargy, you know, skin rashes, things like that. That's a red flag. Like I ate dairy and wheat for so long and had eczema for and that's an autoimmune that's your immune system being hyperactivated by something that the body is perceiving as a foreign substance, right? And when I transitioned to phasing out any kind of grains or even uh a lot of dairy protein, the eczema disappeared 10 years ago when I got into this area and has never occurred. And that's something I dealt with my entire life and had to go to the der dermatologist for a long time. It wasn't like a a macro thing. It wasn't a calorie deficit thing. It was going on to the ketogenic diet eliminated some foods. Maybe by elevating beta hydroxybutyrate, it completely cured uh what I had was pretty severe eczema for a long time and it's never come back over a decade. It's really interesting. Talk to me about the difference between macros and how you're sourcing your macros like what they're actually coming from. Why does that matter? Quantity will kind of trump quality to to some extent. So if you are running a calorie deficit of a high carbohydrate diet that's has processed foods that calorie deficit will produce a lot of beneficial things you know for a lot of that people are looking for like weight loss insulin sensitivity even a lowering of inflammation could be achieved simply by calorie restriction uh and this is you know there's different you know areas of thoughts on this but I'm of the opinion that nutritional ketosis But not even necessarily that just low carbohydrate diets allow one to have the discipline necessary to implement a dietary strategy that allows for you to uh induce and sustain a calorie deficit for one thing. And even if you're not at a calorie deficit, simply by not spiking glucose or spiking insulin and by elevating beta hydroxybutyrate that you know that comes with a whole host of other advantages. So including the anti-inflammatory effects, including perhaps the autoimmune effects, perhaps the gut microbiome, uh if the ketogenic diet is well formulated with soluble, probably most importantly, uh insoluble fiber that can help restore gut health over time. The the foods that are part of the ketogenic diet, u some people will argue, you know, against GMOs or against, you know, grass-fed beef versus cornfed beef. And if you look at the lipid composition of fatty meats that are from animals that were grass-fed, there is a significant, you know, difference in, for example, pro-inflammatory fats or much less in grass-fed meat. So, I do think that if you can budget it in to go with foods, uh ketogenic strategy, it's going to be you want to get fatty fish, meat, and and poultry, um to go with grass-fed relative to u maybe industrial farming practices. All right, I want to take a really hard ride for a second. Okay. You said that you grew up watching the movie Commando a lot and that it actually had a big impact on the trajectory of your career. Why is that? Uh why Commando first of all? Why Commando? Why not Commando? Uh so I think every kid I'm just going to go back into that 12 13year-old mentality where you just want to be a super you want to be larger than life, you know, uh comic book character, right? When you're at that age 13, 12, 13, 14, you that's when a lot of insecurities start to settle in. And I was a pretty insecure kid. I say I was so shy. I was paranoid to uh read in read out loud in school. Like I would literally freeze and have like a sympathetic kind of overload. And uh and later on even when I went to go pursue a PhD, I was petrified of giving an oral defense of my PhD. So it was actually influencing my ability to like sign the application to do a PhD. So I think Arnold Schwarzenegger and just having muscles uh allowed me to get to a state where I had power and control and that led me down a path to uh sort of be like my brother who was very strong at the time and pretty dominant in football and just as a strength athlete and I wanted to be like him. I wanted to be like Arnold. So I I immersed myself into uh lifting and I was a poor student at the time but to achieve gains in lifting you know I was reading muscle and fitness and all these magazines and I realized that to make progress in what I wanted to to do which was just build big muscles I really had to learn biology and nutrition. So towards the end of high school, the last two years, I uh challenged myself with u an academic path that really forced me to learn. And I think the discipline that I learned through weight training and reading books about Arnold, I parlayed that into my academics. And then my grades went from very poor or mediocre to uh pretty good as I went down the the college path. And I continued to train and that gave me a sense of kind of self-worth and uh you know the bigger I got the more control I had over my body and I realized that nutrition is an incredible tool not only to add muscle and strength but to change my energy levels and my physical state and my health. That's really interesting. I love that. Um, I want to go back really fast to one thing that you said about placeos and how effective they are. Do they work on you? So, knowing what you know, are you able to get yourself into a certain mindset to say this is going to work and just really invest in that? I think as a neuroscientist, I would have to say yes. Uh, even when I was visiting my my parents, I had some decaf coffee and I drank it and I'm like, "Yeah, I'm ready to work." And I went back maybe and and I realized that, oh, this is decaf. I was drinking decaf and I was all, you know, I'm saying I could only like start working on this thing. I was not very Sometimes there's a lot of obnoxious paperwork you get in academia where it's like, okay, I'll just have a big cup of coffee and I'll just bang through through all this. So, it's like I woke up, I was going to work and I was like, okay, let me have my coffee first. I was like, okay, I'm ready. And I did it. And that was total placebo effect, you know, that I needed my coffee to complete that work. And I had decaf. So, it was actually pretty nice to know, you know, I did all that work on decaf. I'm not immune to the placebo effect as a scientist. My real question then is do you use it? Like if I were anytime I go into something I say to myself, this is going to work. I'm gonna go all in because I know that most things don't work anyway or they certainly don't work as well as you want. But if you're also fighting against your own mindset that it's really not going to work. So even though I'm hyper aware as somebody who's gone pretty deep into psychology in the brain, uh I'm very aware of the placebo effect. So, in some way it shouldn't work on me, but because I invest so much, not in saying, "Oh, placeos are a thing and it's going to work." I don't think about that. I just think this is going to work. I totally believe this. I'm going to give myself over to it. I'm going to do everything perfectly and it's going to have a massive result. And I was just wondering if you do something similar, if you think that kind of thing can boost something's efficacy. I totally believe that even if we're if we're hesitant if a certain system will work, if the ketogenic diet, if if a supplement will work or anything, if some kind of uh technique will work or whatever, you have to be in 100% or it's not going to work, right? It's like if you have a hesitation, if you go up to a bar and you're deadlifting 700 and you're, you know, you're you're thinking that I might not I might slip a disc, I might not be able to pull this up, then it's already done. Like it's not going to happen. So, you need to go into every challenge in life with the understanding that you you're already there. It's already done. Like you just have to go through the motions. You just have to execute. Uh so that should be sort of your mindset. um that you can use the placebo effect to your advantage. So, I feel like I validated a lot of the the benefits of nutritional ketosis on myself before they're validated in various animal model systems like the lowering of inflammation, my joints feeling better, uh eliminating certain things to get rid of like my eczema, the calming effect I think the ketogenic diet has. Uh my wife observed that when animals were in a state of ketosis, they were easier to handle, easier to to deal with. So it was her idea why aren't we studying anxiety behavior? So that was something that I wasn't really personally interested in studying. Uh but it was an observation sort of as a side effect that this is happening and I felt it in myself too and it's something that we need to study you know in the context of nutritional ketosis. So that led to a number of some of some of our most important work I think is looking at the behavioral effects of being in ketosis which really wasn't a big personal interest of mine but is for my wife and then that has kind of shot us off in different directions of things to look at. Super interesting. All right before I ask my last question tell these guys where they can find you online. Uh keto nutrition all oneword.org oorgg and on there I have a blog, I have a podcast on there. There's products on there. We do not have our own products, but there are products on there that I have tested that are legitimately products that that can help you induce and sustain nutritional ketosis. So, that's on there, but uh it's more anformational website. So, keto nutrition.org and uh yeah, that's like a one-stop kind of shop website. All right, perfect. My last question, if people are going to change one thing to have the biggest positive impact on their health, what one thing should they change on their health? Well, man, I have to go kind of out of my comfort zone and just say really relationships, like get your relationships right. You could devote yourself to work where you work yourself to death, right? But you have to allocate creative downtime uh you know with your significant other, with your family to really get the most out of life because otherwise it just goes by in a flash and that creative downtime uh is probably the most important thing for your mental health, mental hygiene, which really uh can I can look at my sleep and my heart rate variability and see major changes in that and even my glucose levels come down when I remove myself from stress environments and get out into nature things. So I think that's the most important thing. It's not being in ketosis. It's not intermittent fasting. It's not that. So it's it's really focusing on relationships and and giving back. So being passionate about something where the outcome is that you are serving and giving information that can help other people. That's kind of fulfilling. I was a scientist really delving into mechanistic things. But to work on something where we get a scientific effect and publish the paper and I can do that something myself and then people can read that paper and implement it and get beneficial effects from it. That's very rewarding and satisfying to me and I didn't really have that 10 years ago. So I don't know I probably went way beyond the question that you just asked but yeah being passionate about something you're you're doing and u and having that something serve other people I think is is really important. We are very aligned on that. Dom, thank you so much for coming on the show. Incredible. All right, guys. There there is a reason this man is known as the king of keto, but I'm telling you that he's so much bigger than that. And what he's really earned a reputation for in the industry is never being dogmatic. He's always trying to figure out what is true and never overinvesting in something. and somebody like that that's always trying to push the frontiers by just really looking at what is the data showing us, what are we learning, where could we be wrong, and being willing to admit that they're wrong and change and grow. Like, I love that so much. And somebody that can go and talk about something, you know, as intricate as what's going on inside the body and then flip it and start talking about that you should be connecting and that there's a whole world that opens up to you when you recognize fulfillment as something that should be important to you as well. and being able to do all of that and to really try to live a true full human experience is pretty extraordinary. And I think that that's why he's really become a voice for this new generation of scientists that are really pushing to push the envelope of what we know and what we understand and what the body is capable of and pushing the limits and boundaries, but also recognizing that we're trying to give back and help people and touch lives. And he spent so much time just doing that. And we were talking before if this was all just a part of what he does as curriculum, but he does it on his free time. He had to take a vacation day to come here and do this. And I think it's extraordinary that he's that moved to help and reach people that he does that. And I think it's really, really extraordinary. I highly encourage you guys to dive into his world, support him in any way that you can. He changed my life. This is about eight years ago when he and Peter Ratia introduced me to fat, which I' had been fat phobic up until that moment. I owe these guys such a debt of gratitude. Um, so please if there's anything that you can do, a kind word, retweet a tweet, whatever it is that you can help me along this journey, that'd be absolutely extraordinary. All right, if you guys haven't already, be sure to subscribe and until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Thank you again. That was fantastic, man. Hey everyone, I hope you loved that episode and I want to take a quick second to share about our amazing friends at ButcherBox. ButcherBox delivers 100% grass-fed and grass-finished beef, freerange organic chicken and heritage breed pork straight to your door every month. When it comes to cooking, it is super hard to find high quality meat you can actually trust. And you guys know how important that is to me because of what Lisa is going through with the microbiome. And I'm telling you right now, it matters where your food comes from. It matters what your food ate. It's crazy. 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