The Secrets of British Football Culture - Peter Crouch (4K)

Do ex players turn to podcasts because TV punditry feels fake? [laughter] [gasps] >> Um, God, I I felt like I was maybe one of the first like to to do a podcast. I only did a podcast cuz I had a book to promote Bizarrely. And uh someone said, "I'll do a podcast." And then I genuinely thought no one would listen to it. And then um you know, we we had a laugh doing it and I probably said a hell of a lot more than I probably should. And then I and then I realized people were actually listening. You know, it was one of those where I we weren't planning on having a huge following. And then it kind of arrived. And then I don't know, it was it was a bit more of um the fact that I was being open and honest in a in a world of football where you're told to be guarded and and secretive, you know, it's very much like don't say the wrong thing. And um and I think the fact that we were open and honest gave it a platform and people wanted to listen to it. um the the the punditry stuff yet I think it's a little bit more still in that world of um stay guarded, don't say the wrong thing, whereas podcast as as I'm sure you know you know yourself, >> you can definitely be yourself a little bit more and show your personality. And I think that's um I think that's obviously the the benefit of them. >> What is it about the world of football that encourages the players to be so guarded? cuz you're right. I >> I have an I have an understanding of the like psychology of the motivation of players from other sports of rock stars. >> Uh and >> football players seem to be very sort of dead outside of the uh permitted interview at the end of the match which is 30 seconds long. There's not much going on. What is that prescribed top down? Is that something that's cultural, bottom up? What what's going on? >> I do think I do think it's changing in a lot of ways because I think certainly when I was playing it was very much go into an interview, do a press conference, but don't say anything. >> I think that bizarrely was our mentality was I want to come out of this interview having got through it and not said anything too controversial, >> anything to wind anyone up. uh if we've got a Derby game on a weekend, I don't want to get their supporters riled up by saying something negative about the other team. I want to go in there and say the the plainest answers I can possibly say. >> Well, there is a reputation among footballers for giving slightly bland answers. >> Yeah, exactly. Right. And I think there are there's an element of that. Well, I totally understand because um quite often I think in in a world now where players have social media, players can have their own voice, um players can get things across, there's there's certainly a definite shift in it. I think certainly when I was playing and before me, the kind of newspapers ran the the media really. And I think something that you say in a newspaper in a headline, as I'm pretty sure you would know being on a podcast yourself, if someone takes something you say out of context and puts that in a headline, you know, that can look very different to what you're trying to get across. And I think if you're certainly in in Britain at that time, most people formed opinions through newspapers. And I think if I'm saying, you know, saying something tongue and cheek about a player on the opposition side, um, we all know it's a joke. Everyone in the room knows that it's a joke. But if you put that in a headline and and make it look like it's not a joke, people can get offended and and people's opinion of you will be warped. And I think certainly that was the whole probably reason behind the fact that we don't want to say anything and we're boring. And if most players used to give very boring interviews, I I happen to think it is changing a lot now. I think um certainly with through the world of social media, we can see a lot more of players personalities, podcasts like this. People do want to come on and you can kind of you're not just a footballer um you know who does a boring interview at the end of the game. You can be a little bit more than that now. M well I think about UFC fighters who maybe more of what they do is outside of the sport >> right almost all of what they do boxers too it is all about the press conference it's all about the podcast you know look at someone like Ariel Helwani [snorts] >> who'll have each different fighter from a card that's coming up on UFC or >> you know BKFC or whatever and um that is what they do and uh I I still I don't know are we seeing footballers change because they can now counter the narrative in the mainstream press they can always just put up an Instagram story or they can address these things directly is it your opinion that because you had no direct access to be able to put something out to the fans or to the world other than again through the same newspaper that just said something mean and out of context about you previously that it meant everyone was a lot more scared about getting stuff wrong. Everyone was petrified, genuinely petrified. Like, and if you think about it, like quite often in football, you know, um it's workingass background. You know, lads are coming from tough environments. Um you know, maybe not the most educated and and that's genuinely the case. Um and I think you're then put into a press conference with what I would say at the time, you know, very kind of well educated people trying to make you trip up on your words or say things that you don't want to say. And I think of course that young lad 18 19 years of age is going to be pretty guarded you know in an environment like that. And I think that is you know certainly has been the case. I think with regards to boxing UFC like like you said there um it has become a show more than the I mean quite often that the boxing takes kind of a backseat to the this whole you know performance. >> Everything is WWE. >> Yeah. It feels like, you know, we're we're all trying to kind of sell subscriptions and sell uh tickets and and I totally understand it. You know, you want to the biggest spectacle you can and you know, there's people behind the scenes that want to make a hell of a lot of money from it and they are. But um yeah, I mean quite often I think >> it's almost pulling the wool over the eyes of the of the fans in some degree to say, you know, two people that look like they really hate each other probably don't. No, they're just selling the fact. I'm I I'm, as you're speaking there, I'm wondering whether most team sports tend to not be like that. And I think that that's the case. I don't think as many basketball players. Steph Curry isn't giving tons of interviews talking [ __ ] about other people. Um, baseball not the same. Uh, cricket, I guess, but I suppose cricket is a quite placid by nature and the sport is a little bit more gentlemanly. So like the [ __ ] talk would be of a different kind if you were to do that. But uh when I think about tennis, [ __ ] NovakJovich was just on J Shett's show. Um so I'm wondering whether there's maybe something different about you're part of a team >> and whoa whoa whoa. Peter, what did you just say? >> There's 10 other guys on the pitch that are at the mercy of that [ __ ] thing that you just said yesterday. Like we're all everyone's given a stick. Um so you're at the responsible >> for the blast radius of the [ __ ] around you. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. And also I think you know with a with a team sport like that there's a there's an element of you know still being at school you know like you want to fit in >> you know if you're in a in a in a single sport if you're a boxer or a golfer you know you can say what you like it's on you right and I think you know if we I always remember it's kind of Jamie Cariger who really drilled it into me when I was at Liverpool um you know going to the press conference don't say anything to kind of wind up the opposition or give them an opportunity you know the the Man United game Man United Liverpool game for instance was it was such a huge game the Liverpool Everton game or any Champions League semi-final like anything you said in that press conference it was it was almost I remember him kind of almost coaching you through it'd be like don't say this don't say that don't wind them up in this way you and and I'm going in there thinking of all the things that Jamie told me to say [laughter] in the press because he's think you know he's he was more experienced than me at the time and he's just trying to help me out in the fact that you don't want something blazed all over the newspaper, all over Sky Sports News. You don't want to say the wrong thing. And I think that was why quite often footballers give very mundane interviews. >> That's a great get out of jail free card. If somebody purposefully actually just gives one because I didn't have anything to say that day. I was being I was being tactical. >> Yeah, there you go. And also, there's some boring footballers out there as well >> that might contribute too. Um, so I think I said before, I think there's archetypes of psychology in in some sports. You know, sort of golfers being very precise, maybe a little bit autistic, baseball players being sort of superstitious and maybe a little bit obsessive. What is the psychological archetype, the common psychological archetype of top flight footballers in your experience? >> Yeah, I think um I got to a to a top level, right? I got to, you know, Premier League. I played for my country. I played in the Champions League and, you know, I've won a small amount, but, you know, I'm very proud of the career I had, but I still class myself as, yeah, I got to a top level, but I would not class myself as as as elite. Um, because I I saw the elite, and that was that was a different mentality to what I had. I I I enjoyed myself. I I won games and I enjoyed it, you know, whereas, you know, we'd win something or I'd get to a final and I' I'd sit back afterwards and go, "That was [ __ ] amazing. Loved it." Whereas the players, I'm talking certainly the players I played with for England, Gerard, Lampard, Rooney, um John Terry, that kind of player. Um who was multiple multiple winners, you know, Rio Ferdinand, they just did not look like they enjoyed it ever. And um like that it was always the next thing. It was like you know yeah we've won that game but we could have done that or you know the we've won that but tomorrow we're training again and and and not not just that it rubs off on everyone else around you. Um and if you look at the you know certainly the team in 2005 that that won the Champions League with Liverpool um in Eastan Ball um not the greatest team to ever win a Champions League. Let's be let's be perfectly honest. But you know that that mentality that Gerard had I thought and and Jamie Carrager certainly at that time kind of dragged that team to success and I think that rubs off on other people and that that is the mentality that I would say is is the best of the best is is I think they would there's probably regrets in there and there's a little bit of pain >> because they probably look back some of those players now and think I wish I'd just enjoyed that you know >> but they'll look at you with a sense of envy and think God Peter just had so much fun. Yeah, you know, he looks back with fond playfulness and I have this sort of weird reverse stoicism where I didn't let myself feel the wins, but I did let myself feel the failures. >> Yeah. And and I don't know what's right or wrong there. Do you know what I mean? Like Yeah. If I had if I had that kind of mentality and don't I'm not I wasn't unprofessional. Do you know what I mean? I I was obviously the minute I walked through the training ground I'm switched on. But I did sit back and go like or what you know I'd watch match of the day and go car was great there. You know I did really well there. Whereas they they would always be look at the negatives and try and improve and of course I tried to improve as well but I did enjoy the fact that we were having success. In your experience did those people just have that for football or did that bleed into the rest of their life? And then to compare that to you too, >> is that something that you find relatively easy with the other stuff with playing with the kids with doing the podcast with starting a business with enjoying your time on holiday and work and all the rest of it? My point being I wonder how much of that is you are an elite performer within this pursuit and this is the mindset that's made you show. though and you are a obsessive typically negatively focused person which means that you pay a lot of attention to where things are going wrong and you improve but that's just you and that is global that's across your entire life is that how you like these people are like that in and on the pitch and off the pitch in both both camps >> I would say so yeah and and and in all honesty I'm probably doing myself a little bit disservice of the fact that I am like that as well like you know I think when you get to that level of of sport and winning matters, right? It really matters. Um, then I do think you take that into into every aspect of your life. And I think that's a good thing. Like, you know, I don't let my I don't let my kids win anything really. Um, um, you know, my my my wife's saying, you know, just just let her win. And you're like, no. Like, I come back. I'll come back and say, yeah, like I I destroyed her. She's like 14, you know. I'm like, play tennis and I want to win. I want to beat her. You do know that one day. >> Yeah. But that that I think cuz my dad was like it with me. He would not let me win at anything. And then when I got to the point where I I did beat him, it meant so much more because I think if she my little girl's really good at tennis and um and I just obviously she's getting to the point where it's, you know, she's good. But obviously the the moment she does beat me is the moment she's going to she's going to feel so good. And I think it's all that pain that she's gone through before is going to be worth it. And I genuinely I >> that's going to be her Champions League. >> Yeah. I I believe that. My dad did it to me. I was playing tennis and we had used to have these battles and my mom used to come down and I mean she she'd come down for 5 minutes. We'd both tell her in no uncertain terms to leave. It was so aggressive. People used to come down to the to the park to watch me and my dad's games. And um they were so it was it was intense. And it got to a stage where I was just about to beat him and he he pulled a hamstring and um and I got home. I said I said, "Dad, I was over the other side of the court and I said, "Dad, don't don't you dare." And he said, "I can't help it. It's gone." Anyway, we get back and I you know, we've he's carried on this this thing for ages. And I've got back and I've sat down and then he's just gone, "You still never beat me, have you?" [laughter] And I was like, "Ah." you know, and we never played again. Never played again. That was it. Yeah. But, um, you know, I I don't know if I'll go that far, but I would I definitely think that there is a there is a lesson in, you know, you need to learn to Yeah. I think I think to to lose and then it's definitely means more when you win uh because you've earned it. >> So, those players, the ones that you'd say are sort of top of the top elite, I mean, you know, even from the outside, somebody that I've caught a bit of a glimpse of this would be uh Cristiano Ronaldo. as far as I can see. How old is he? 41, 42, something like that. Yeah. And still looks fantastic. Still very aggressive with that. I don't know how balanced at least some of the stuff I've seen, it seems. Huh. Like this guy's got, but he's also got like an Infinity team powering him and this big engine that's behind him. So, >> yeah. But I think that that was in him that was in him very early. I I've played against Cristiano one knew who he was. We had Charisma on one wing and and Ronaldo was on the other. and uh Portugal versus England under 21s. No one knew who he was. And um oh my god, he was he was absolutely sensational as you can imagine. I mean he was the tricks, the flicks, he was he was a machine. And then he came to Manchester United. I remember Rio telling me um you know and this was very early on. I mean he must have been 21 22 and you know he's not even barely kicked the ball in the Premier League and um he's telling Rio and you know various other people in the team that he wants to be the best player in the world and I think you know that that that takes a certain type of person to say that when you're so far away from being the >> you've got amazing talent you you know you've got definitely got the ability to get there but the fact that he's he's saying that at such an early age he had one goal goal and that was to to be the best player on the planet and and and then to achieve it is is incredible. How receptive are players to that kind of bravado? Because I think when you talk about again solo sport UFC, right? You think that Conor McGregor is of the world, the best [ __ ] talkers in the world, Kobe Coington, whatever. You I mean, you can do what you want. Maybe your coach will say, "You idiot, you shouldn't have said that." But really, there's no one else that you're at the mercy of. And it's a really, really good point. Uh kind of the same the difference between being uh Taylor Swift and the Ollie Sykes, the lead singer of Bring Me the Horizon. If you do or say a thing as a solo artist, fine. It's on your shoulders. If you do or say a thing with the rest of the band mates, you you now need to go and answer to them on the bus or in the dressing room or whatever. So, if >> I imagine that teams want confident players because a good player will help the performance of the team, >> but there's this trade-off between how much that person gets to capture the limelight and how much that person steals all of the attention. and there's this battle between the two things. So, is there a concern about someone getting too big for their boots? What is the reception of somebody that's got bravado like that? Like, >> well, the thing is this and I've played with other players as well who've probably said the same thing and got nowhere near it, you know, and obviously they get ridiculed for it. Um, I think it's good to have. I think, you know, there are certain players like, you know, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, someone who who's outspoken but backs it up. And I think there's nothing better than and there's nothing we love more than someone Floyd Mayweather, you know, someone at the top of their game who talks the talk but backs it up with results. And I think, you know, we've in sports especially like I love all sports and the characters are the people that make it right. the people that say they're going to do something and then they do it is just and you know because the whole you know that everyone watching once they say they're going to do something that everyone wants them to fail. Um it's that there's something certainly in this country in England we are we absolutely love people failing. Someone said to me, I remember like buying a nice car. If you buy a nice car in England, people want to k it. You know, if you're in America or the US, we'll celebrate the fact that you you've done well, you know, but there's something about that in this country that I like. Um >> definitely not going to let you get too big for your boots. >> Yeah. There you go. And I think, you know, Cristiano would have been ridiculed at that at that age. There's players far more on a on a uh far more ahead of him at that time, but the fact that he had that goal and achieved it is something you got to respect. M what did being inside of Premier League dressing rooms treat teach you about masculinity? >> Um well yeah that I mean a hell of a lot like you had to go I had to grow up very quickly. Um, I I remember being 40. I mean, it's totally different time now, but I mean some of some of the the dress rooms I was in in in that age and you're playing with kind of men, you know, and I kind of didn't I didn't develop till a little bit later, you know. I'm 14, 15, very skinny, very tall. Um, and I'm I'm in dressing room with with men who, you know, just hard men, you know, and like the coaches were were incredibly tough, you know, like >> what youth setup were you in? >> I was at um I was at QPR for a little while and then I went to Tottenham um when Jerry Francis moved and then I I ended up back at QPR and I made my debut. But yeah, I was at Tottenham and it was hard and and and also, you know, I grew up in a in quite a nice environment, you know, and um you know, my dad obviously said to me quite often, I was too nice. I had to I had to change. I had to be someone different on the pitch. >> Um because I'm playing an environment where, you know, people are fighting for their lives, you know, and they're, you know, that tackle that means something to me is life or death to them. Do you know what I mean? I had, so I had to make that life or death for me. Um, so I had to just change my mentality, be a different person when I went over the white line >> and changed the kind of character I am off the field. Kind of always tried to remain the person that I was, but just be a different person on the pitch. Um, and and I think that environment definitely helped me. Um, certainly become the Yeah. become the person and the um and the player that I was. Definitely. >> I played a lot of cricket as a kid. I played for to a pretty high standard. I played for Durham and then I did some training stuff with England and uh that's the same I mean even maybe younger because the thing that you get to do with cricket as a sport which isn't as much about physicality and is much more about technique you can as a 13 I I started playing adults at 13 >> and you know I'd be playing maybe fourths at 13 and then I'd probably start I think I had my first seconds game when I was 14 and then you know you're playing twos and ones and then you're going to play you're already playing county you'd set up and then you're playing you Durham Academy, Durham Seconds. >> And uh yeah, you're right. You're 14 years old in communal showers with with guys. And another interesting quirk in the game of cricket is that you're in the pavilion for 50% of the game, >> unless you're batting. Uh your time in the dressing room is maybe more than any other sport except for baseball, but the difference with baseball being that their dressing room is on the pitch. So he doesn't have as much privacy. So yeah, it's a real [ __ ] baptism of fire. You know, there was one day where my head got shaved. Like I was in, you know, I'm in the pavilion and I my dad saw me go into the dressing room with hair and then by the time that we'd finished batting, we hadn't lost too many wickets, so no one had come out. I came out without hair. So the exact same thing. I went on to the we played the Milk Cup in Ireland, but we were still at school. I was uh I was playing the under 16s and and that that team those lads they were they had already gone full-time. Um so I was still at school and we were kind of part-time so they had a a real tight bond and then we were like three players who were playing a year above. You can only imagine, you know, we were the whipping boys, right? So yeah, it was like I don't want to have my head shaved. Well, that's not an option. Um so yeah, you get your head shaved and you kind of muck in and you want to but you're not really kind of on the inside of it. And I I found that tough at first, but um and you know, you I think to myself, god, it would have been easier to stay at home and not go to training or but you know, getting through that and overcoming those things is is definitely a feather in your cap. And I think it you know, it is such an old school way of looking at things and you know, the coaches were so hard on you and it was whether or not you could sink or sw it was basically look, are you hard enough to deal with this? Yeah. and they were overly tough on you. But I I I do think you I know it's a bit old school and we can't do that now, but I do think it made me it did make me stronger. And you know, the fact that there were certainly some players who would sit here with you now and say it was bullying. It was terrible cuz they didn't like make it, you know, they didn't they they they >> they were selected out. >> Yeah. And they they did find that tough and they couldn't deal with it. And I totally understand why. But the fact that I did manage to overcome those hurdles definitely made me made me a stronger me mentally and you know definitely made me I think stronger for for everything that life throws at you. We'll get back to talking in just one minute but first I need to tell you about eight sleep. If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going to help. Eightlee just released their brand new pod 5. It now includes a temperature regulating duvet that works with the smart mattress to deliver full body climate control. And the new base even comes with a built-in speaker so you can fall asleep to white noise or stay awake listening to me. 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What about masculinity and that sort of male posturing thing when you get to everybody being a professional player? >> Um, I have no idea what this looks like inside of the dressing room or on the training ground, lots big squat, big-ish squads, you know, got a bunch of physios, some SNC's, etc., etc. It's like a big group of people that are all moving around. >> Um, >> it's a basketball team which got much smaller team and squad size. What's that like? What does masculinity in professional football look like? >> Um, well, it's it's incred it's how you imagine it. I think it's very kind of macho doggy dog world, you know. I think people want to take your place. Um, you know, any weakness is prayed upon um that that if you look at the masculinity side of it, I suppose it's very much um you know, we you you have to man up basically. And I think uh certainly things nowadays it's a lot it's a lot better. But you know if I went in to see the manager and said you know I'm struggling a little bit mentally it be like well you you drop then you know you obviously can't you can't deal with it. You can't you that kind of struggle I think it's very was very old school. I think it's very different now. Um but I wouldn't I wouldn't show any weakness whatsoever. Even if I was feeling down about anything you you just don't show it. And I think that was, you know, some kind of environment that I grew up in and the environment that I played in. Um, but I do think I do think it's much better now. And, you know, certainly men in general talk about things more now, don't >> Is that the same inside of the dressing room? Have you got any indication that it's changed when it gets to football? >> Yeah, I think so. I think I think it's a lot more accommodating than you would expect now. I think, you know, it's very multicultural. Like, you know, everyone's very from very different walks of life um all over the world. um different beliefs, religions um certainly when I was in the youth team and coming through it was very English um kind of British culture that was policing >> superbly diverse now. >> Yeah, that's what I mean. I think you know there's I think all corners of the globe is covered in the dressing room now and I think um certainly when I was coming through that that kind of British it was macho almost drinking culture if you like. Um I think that's gone now. Talking about diversity, there are no publicly gay Premier League players. >> Each Premier League club can register a squad of up to 25 players plus unlimited under 21s. 20 clubs, that's 500 registered first team players any given time. If you include all of the under 21s who make senior appearances, the number rises to about 600 to 650 active players across the season. Currently, zero active Premier League male players are publicly out as gay. Statistically speaking, there should be 20 to 35. Same in La Liga, same in the German league, same in the French league. And there is one gay guy in Syria in Italy. Why? I could not tell you. I think I genuinely think now if someone came out as gay in in a dressing room, I I think they'd be very well supported. I think in those in a Premier League dressing room. Yeah, of course you're going to have idiots in the crowd. I think people that are, you know, maybe stuck in the dark ages. We've seen it with racism. Um, you know, it's still it's still not completely kicked out, is it? I think, you know, we've seen only incident recently um at the Liverpool match um with Bournemouth with, you know, that that proves that. I think it's got far better. I think there's, you know, there's still a way to go. Um but with with regards to to someone coming out, I genuinely believe that um you know, if there is someone out there, you would urge them to come forward and if they want to and and of course it's their decision because if they don't want to, that's that's certainly their decision as well. But >> um I I do think it would be well supported um as as regards to why I mean I played with Thomas Hitsberger who who who has come out as gay. I played with him at Aston Villa. Um but yet, you know, he felt he he couldn't come out uh at the time. um for for whatever reason. Uh he came out afterwards, but um I see I've spoke to Thomas and you know we've um you know there's he he feel he's felt very well supported since he has come out. So it's just a shame he he didn't do it while he was playing. >> Yeah, I mean it's a good point. Uh it's your choice. You don't need to you you are a professional athlete. I do not need to know about your sexuality. Absolutely. That being said, uh people talk a lot about lots of things that they're getting up to, right? This is my new car that I've just bought and this is my new dog and I just got married and I did whatever. And yeah, if we've got this, you know, 600 to 650 >> player ecosystem that exists in the Premier League each year, which is cycling through, right? That's not fixed. That's, you know, over the last decade with uh people moving in and out, you're talking maybe close to 2,000, maybe 3,000. Uh >> and if you were to look at sort of the rates of how often you would assume there would be at least one gay player in this group, you talking 20 to 35 people >> and it's none. And um regardless of whether the locker room and the press and your fans would be fine with that or maybe even like in support of that, maybe even you know be a a positive. There is evidently something true or not that is lingering to cause those players. It's almost 100% a guarantee that there are that there is not no gay players right in the Premier League. So, it has to be either they're focused on being professional. Yeah, maybe. But I get the sense that given a I feel completely liberated to talk about whatever I want. Most players might actually like to have their sexuality out there. >> Uh but they don't. So there's whether it's real or imagined there's something lingering I think that's causing uh guys because it's not the same in rugby. Uh I don't know whether it would be the same in cricket. I wonder as well you mentioned before about the class thing. I wonder how much of this is because football is still very much dominated by uh working class in a way that rugby perhaps isn't the same in the way that cricket perhaps isn't the same. Uh, tennis also not the same. Uh, so yeah, maybe it's a class thing too. >> Yeah, per perhaps. I mean, I I don't know. I mean, with I've spoke to Thomas about it and, you know, he felt he didn't he he wanted to concentrate on his football. He felt it be too a lot, you know, a lot of a distra distraction to him. He also thought, you know, I don't know what the fallout's going to be because because no one's really done it while they've been playing at the top level. Um, so yeah, it's a it's a difficult one um to to navigate. Um but I genuinely think you know from everyone I've been involved been involved in football a lot time a long time now and I do think that there would be a tremendous amount of support for someone that did >> be interesting when it happens >> be like a really kind of a monumental moment when that does happen. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, like you say, the the statistics or the the the the chance of it happening is you would expect it to to to happen, but um no, it hasn't done so far, but uh you know, I think it would be probably a good thing for the game when it when it does. >> What was it you were saying, Dean, about uh there's only one guy in Formula 1 as well? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you pick your pick your favorite sport of choice and uh I don't know, it's it's strange to me, not to harp on the sort of pride acceptance thing, but um people that criticize pride, even my gay friends that criticize Pride and like, "Okay, we've done like, you know, we've sort of owned all of the different territory that we need to." And I think in many ways brands change their display photos on Twitter to have a a rainbow behind them for Pride Month and all the rest of this stuff. Like, you know, that looks looks like it's pretty well conquered to me. But then when we look at elite sport, the numbers don't really seem to stack up. >> Um, so it seems like, you know, there kind of is work to be done in some of these ways. Or maybe it's the case that all players actually that's another good point. I'm talking against myself here. I'll I'll let you know when I'm done. Um, I'm just having an argument over here. Uh, how many players, straight players, do you know about what they're doing with their relationship? >> Well, that's what I mean. Like, if I'm a footballer, I know how I feel, right? And if I if I was gay, I think I'd be quite open about it, but I don't think I would be shouting it from the rooftops either. Like, I I'm not going to do a press conference and say, you know, my sexual preferences. Like, I I'm there. If you went out and Jamie Carrick goes like, "Right, Peter, we really need to get don't say much." And you go out and you go, "My sexual preferences, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you." >> That's what I mean. I do it's we're there to play football, you know, and I think of course we if someone is gay and I'd love them to feel comfortable enough to come out if they want to. But having said that, we we're not there for that. You know, we I'm not there to broadcast what, you know, my preferences are. I'm there to play football. on there to do a job, something that I love doing. And actually, you know, that might take something away from the job that I'm doing. It's >> only going to be a distraction, >> you know, and I think, you know, we're all professional. I think footballers just want to get on with playing and do something they love and done since they were a kid. And that potentially could be a distraction. So that if there are people out there that, you know, don't feel that they want to come out that then that's totally fine as well. >> Interesting. was saying before about how um previously there was a disadvantage because you didn't have uh direct route to be able to broadcast what it is that you've got going on. Uh and in many ways that was a weakness, but now that it's an availability, there's almost this sense of like entitlement or obligation. It's like, well, tell me tell me what you've got going on. Is that new car? What happened with the dog? Has the dogs like how's the dog doing? You know, has it been spayed yet? Like there's this uh necessity for everything to be keeping up with the Kardashians. M well I I I found this myself like um because I do a podcast with my wife and um you know the stuff that we talk about at home quite often we talk about on the podcast but I I've kind of blurred the lines a little bit now where I'm like people will come up to me and be oh how's how's Cass doing you know that's Aby's friend you know talk about the dog and I'm how do you know these things and I just forget I did it >> yeah we we've we've talked about it right and because we're sitting there on our couch we do it at home. The stuff that we say, you know, I forget sometimes what's out there and what's not. And you know, people will come up to us in the in a supermarket and say things about our lives and I'll be like, "How the hell?" And then it just dawned on me the fact that we talked last week. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Um but but I enjoy it and people seem to enjoy it with us. So the more that you know, the more that that can continue the better because we love doing it. >> Yeah. Going back to the sort of football culture thing, it certainly seemed like if you're a very successful player, Ronaldoesque, uh you can get away with a little bit more. Does that encourage or tend teams who are winning to continue to sort of um turn the screw of maybe toxic uh culture in terms of uh work rate, how hard and unforgiving people are, that sort of backbiting uh ruthlessness which doesn't necessarily bind a team together. it's 11 individuals or a 25 squad group of individuals as opposed to a 25 squad group that are all working together. But if um everything is going well and you're moving up through the rankings, >> everyone's sort of we we don't want to change what appears to be working at the moment, I have to assume that success permits uh things to become a little bit more extreme in that way. >> Yeah, I think I've I've actually been in both scenarios. you know, the the when you're when you're losing games, that can be obviously very toxic as well. Um, but but also winning games as well and like the players that aren't playing. Um, that that kind of atmosphere like I don't envy managers trying to deal with so many big personalities and um I think nowadays it's very much more like the players will let their agents deal with with not playing and things like that. But um back I think when I was playing it was definitely much you'd knock on the door of the manager and you'd have to >> direct relationship. >> You you'd have a direct relationship. It's like why am I not playing? And you know you'd have that you kind >> the agent now that speaks to the manager. >> Yeah. I mean I I've seen things now that I I'm basically I'm glad that I kind of got out when I did. I I when when I was 37, 38, I was still playing and I just saw, you know, agents up in the in the in the canteen every day, you know, going in to see why a player wasn't playing or um and I've just been like, why can't you just go and do it yourself? You you just go and knock on the door and happen. >> Yeah. A hell of a lot more now. Um and I think players hide behind their agents a little bit now. Um which is a shame. Um, and yeah, they've got they've got a role to play agents, but uh I do think those conversations need to be visually you can have them yourself with the with the manager, but with regards to that, yeah, that toxic atmosphere. Yeah, definitely when when you're losing games that could be really bad. Everyone pointing fingers, no one wants to look in a mirror. And um there was certain >> you know players individuals where you just be like the other thing is when you losing and and and people aren't playing and you with social media now you can put out I mean I've watched one certain player do nothing in training you know he he'd be the f you he'd be the last and he'd be the first out uh every single day. He wouldn't even tie his laces when he was training and then he'd go home and he he'd have someone filming him on Instagram. He's running up some stairs is, you know, he's he's running around his drive and he's doing shuttles and all the fans are like, >> "Why is he not playing?" You know, >> he's working hard. Look how hard he's working. >> He's not doing anything. >> He's not doing anything in training. I'm like, >> "Wow." >> But you know, that just shows you that how the wall can be pulled over fans eyes and you know that you're not really getting the the full story. >> This is another disadvantage of that direct form of communication, right? Yeah. They can counter negative headlines in the press, but they can also sell the fans a complete lie about how hard they're they're working. >> A completely different story. And you know, that's that's actually >> fascinating. >> Yeah. Like the the back we say back stronger on my podcast and it's very much like we say that because it was just a loose term on people's social media that used to wind me up so much. >> What? >> Back stronger, right? Everyone used to say it and it was like a hashtag. It was like you can write the the the the the tweet or the or the Instagram message of every player who's who's ever lived, right? When they've played and they've lost away from home was like, um, sorry we let you down. The fans were terrific today. We'll be back stronger next week, right? That we used to laugh at that cuz I just be like, who are you trying to kid with this message? You know, you've barely tried. you know, we've we've got pumped and you're trying to say, you know, you've been coating the fans off to to everyone on the on the change room saying how bad they were and then it's the, you know, the generic >> diplomacy out front, >> the generic message. And the worst thing is you see the replies after and there's fans that are are buying into it and I think, yeah, I think it's definitely I think people are kind of cottoned on to the to the fact that, you know, you can't pull the wool over these these people's eyes, but for a long time that was going on and it was it was frustrating the life out of me. If you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it in a simple dashboard, and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels to your thyroid function and nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. And getting your blood work done and drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is only $499. And right now, they're giving a,000 Modern Wisdom listeners another $100 off, bringing it down to $399. So, just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Is being funny a way of hiding how much the game hurts or is it a performance enhancer to kind of uh regulate when stuff's getting a little bit stressful? >> Well, for me personally, uh yeah, >> a coping mechanism or a performance enhancer. >> Yeah, it started as that, you know, like it started as as a as a defense mechanism. Um I just looked different. I didn't look like any normal footballer. Um, you know, I've talked about this before, but I, you know, all my heroes didn't look like me. And, um, I was kind of I mean, there were certain players that, you know, were taller, but, you know, I wanted to go past players. I wanted to I wanted to have a good time. I wanted to I wanted to do skills. I wanted to score great volleys. I wanted to score, you know, I wanted to do things that, you know, players players didn't look like me were doing. Um and I think yeah certainly at school you know in that harsh environment of football um looking different and trying to fit in uh are two different things. So um yeah humor became a defense mechanism became something that I managed to um you know if someone wanted to say something negative about me I would say it funnier and quicker than they than they were going to and I think that kind of stood me in really goodstead in life really. So I think that's how my charact character developed really and then it was like well I'm not gonna say anything because he's going to be sharper and quicker and funnier with whatever he's gonna say. So that stopped very quickly and I think certainly the harsh environment with fans I think you know I came out and you know I'd laugh at myself before someone else could laugh at me. And I think something that started as a defense mechanism then kind of became my superpower. I think after football it then became oh god there's a you know there's a footballer that can have a laugh. He can laugh at himself in an environment that um is very take yourself seriously. It's very, you know, how good can we look? How polished can we look? And I think >> yeah, it might have been a quite a refreshing change for people that, oh, there's someone here that's doing doing well. He's successful, >> but he can also take the piss out of himself, which was, you know, for me sitting here now, it doesn't seem groundbreaking, but I think certainly when I was playing it, it did it did feel a touch groundbreaking. What gets considerably better about life when you stop playing? >> Um, it's hard. I mean, it's it's a tough one to stop because it's all you've ever known, right? And um, >> since you were a child. >> Yeah. I think when I first retired, I was very much like, I'm my own boss now. I can do whatever I like. I can, you know, go on a holiday at Christmas. Things like that. I can, you know, do something on a Saturday. Um, you know, there's certain little things like that. Like even the first Christmas dinner was amazing. Like genuinely as a footballer, I'm in a hotel New Year's Eve. Didn't see New Year in ever. I've been asleep by 10:00. Um, Christmas Day very much like >> for Boxing Day. >> Yeah. I'd train Christmas Day. Um, I mean, you know, I' I'd have a sandwich for like turkey sandwich maybe. That was about it. Um, I'd eat pasta, chicken. It wouldn't I wouldn't have a Christmas dinner. I certainly no alcohol cuz we'd play 26th, 28th, 1st, um you know, 7th. There'd be consistent games over Christmas. So yeah, that that first when I retired, it was like right, I'm going to go for it Christmas day and I did, you know, [laughter] um >> my stomach didn't know what >> Oh my god, I ate what you know what I could. I drank a hell of a lot and I had a great time. But then that wears thin, right? You're like after the first Christmas year, that was a that was that was great. >> I'd rather be playing. I genuinely would rather be doing what I love doing. I mean, going actually thinking about it now, the Christmas Day training game, it was the some of the best times I' ever had in my life. >> Just no one on the road. Everyone's with, you know, with the families and I love my family to bits, but it's nice getting away from them sometimes. [laughter] >> Just getting that fresh air, playing a sport when everyone else is sitting around hung over, you are you're ready to go. >> You're getting after it. Yeah, it's it there is something smug about being so fit in a in a time >> self-righteousness was as nourishing as the Christmas meal was >> almost so. Yeah. And I think being my own boss was lovely, but I'll be honest with you, I work better in a in a kind of regimented environment. >> Me too. Me too. It's a >> It's so trit, right? But the reason that cliches exist is because they seem to be sticky enough to be [ __ ] accurate. Um grass always being greener. You know, you when you were on the training ground not fully appreciating how nice it were. Fresh cold air, like that snappy British cold air, 9:00 am in the morning. >> It's nice, right? It fills your lungs up. And at the same time, you're like, "Oh, we a national sport is complaining. It's it's complaining first and football second." >> And >> you want to be I wish I I could have should have laid in this morning. The kids are going to be a nightmare when I get back. Oh, the MS is going to me not even going to get to get a roast today, you know? D like just as you're waiting to do drills and everyone's chirping away like just in a little queue like the classic thing. And then as soon as you finish up, what is it that you miss? You miss the thing that's on the other side. >> So I I think that to be honest, I think that that's kind of the perennial condition for humans across everything. You're, you know, deep in university and you just wish that you could get out. I'm so bored of this lecture. I'm so bored. this course is stupid. And then you get into employment, whatever career you go into, and you go, I wish that, you know, I remember when I used to go back to lectures and we'd sit at the back and just be able to chill out and we'd be able to have snake bite in the union at 11:00 in the morning on a Tuesday. Like, wasn't that cool? And then you get out of that and you're like, yeah, I just really want to have a family. I spend all of this time on my own. I want to have a partner. And then you have to sleep in bed next to someone and they're too hot all the time. You're like, "Fuck, I just wish I was on my own again." You miss to have a family. And then you start to have a family and you're like, "Fuck, I just wish I could sleep in on a morning. and the kids are bouncing everywhere and then you're sick of your job and you want to retire and then you retire and you think, "Fuck, I just I wish I was back at work." And this is, I think, the perennial human condition all the way through and humor laughing at kind of the absurdity of it all, >> I think, is a pretty good >> prophylactic against that. >> Yeah, I think um it we we do complain and as footballers, we complained about the smallest things. you know, if one thing was wrong, we were on it, you know. >> What are some of the more silly complaints that you can recall? >> Um, mainly about sessions, you know, like I I I did my coaching badges when I retired and I got up to kind of UFIA license and um my respect for coaches and managers now is just through the roof, you know, and I and I think about what I was like and what we were like to coaches. if one if he got the num one number wrong or gave the wrong bib to someone or you know the cone was out of place we were on him right it was like oh my god this is a shambles you know that [laughter] this you're a disgrace you can't manage you can't coach genuine that's the slightest thing and then I think about it now when I was in that environment of being a coach and I think this is hard this is tough how you get >> thankless task >> yeah how you get all these egos in one in various positions to pull them around and tell them what to do is is an incredible feat really. So my respect went so so through the roof for coaches when I did my ves. [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean I I I remember the same thing with cricket that that it is I think maybe a little bit of it is trying to invert some of the power that you know there's a power imbalance that these are the guys who in some form or another are kind of in charge of life or death for you and you are being held to a high standard. It's it's you know it's the same as it's the same as seeing a police officer texting while he drives >> and you go, "Hey, >> you >> I know you're gonna enforce this on me, >> so this is my opportunity to be self-righteous and and and very British about it." You everybody turns into cycling Mikey when uh [laughter] >> 100%. I love to say that. I would tell him as well. >> And uh yeah, I think I I think part of it is we're going to re we're going to invert this this power imbalance. between the two of us and um >> but yeah we I think the [snorts] humor thing okay this is absurd and it's difficult to do in the moment because we especially even you are more less a fair philosophy when it came to the way that you played than maybe the more kind of intense negatively focused guys will still have been focusing on a lot of the negatives of how can I get better and where should I improve and so on and so forth if that's the case you know that there are going to be things in this situation that in future you're going to look back on with fondness and you know that there are uh and those are things that you're ignoring right now and you also know that whatever it is that you want you're going to pick holes in that thing in future >> so >> maybe trying to be a little bit less uh confident in what you think is what you want >> you know you're like I I just think I'm doing this thing right now and I'll just make you Well, I've been whining this week. You're the ninth episode in this location. It's been so much fun and beautiful and and my favorite location of anywhere I've filmed over, you know, like a thousand episodes. The seat's not that comfortable. >> I've been sat [laughter] I've been sat in the seat like 25 hours this week and I've got this like little bruise on my lower back and I'm getting in on a night time. I'm like, "Oh, my back hurts." Like my lower back hurts. I'm not going to remember the [ __ ] bruise on my back in six months time, but I'll remember how much fun it was to be here with the guys >> and uh to do ad reads and throw AG1 and element packets around and stuff like that, you know? So, just again I I wonder I I'm sure that this is kind of like I say perennial human issue, but I think it's a distinctively British brand of it as well. Like the complaining like cycling Mikey uh dynamic is like a particular thing. So just trying to keep that in mind I think might be a nice way for people to to let go of that stress. >> I I think the I think the character thing like you you mentioned there I think being adaptable is the the the thing that I think we we forget about. I think people have these goals like you say and you set the goals and if you don't reach them it's it's it's it's a failure >> you know whereas I'll have a goal and I I've had it my whole life really. My ultimate goal was football. But then when I retired, I was like, "Right, what do I what do I do now?" And I there was a real worry to be, you know, kind of jobless and think to myself, you know, how am I going to keep myself busy? Um, and I I might have a goal, but that goal for me would would change at every every turn. I mean, like it's a kind of a tree, I suppose, and then the branches keep coming off and you're like, I'll follow this one. And I think, you know, people have always said to me like, you know, yeah, I've been lucky enough to have quite a successful career after football, but it wasn't it wasn't structured or thought out. It was very much like that's an opportunity. I'll take that. >> Um, you know, that's another opportunity. I I'll I'll I'll do that. And I think, you know, I was lucky the fact that those opportunities arose. But, um, I I do think being adaptable and and and taking your mind off the ultimate goal at times. And, you know, there'd be plenty of elite people that you speak to said, "I I have one laser focus that I hone in on." Right? Well, that's not my way. That wasn't my way and isn't my way. I think >> um, yeah, I had a focus. I have a goal, but I also kind of can adapt >> to situations and make the best of the situation you are you're given. >> I always felt not not quite like a fraud, but certainly like uh insufficient by the standards that I knew were supposed to be gold standard. I started doing the show, a lot of it was about productivity. It's been going good 7 years. And um >> so nearly eight actually. [ __ ] >> And when I first started, you know, I was >> 30 and um I'm like this adult infant trying to wrangle my life into order a little bit. I was at university full-time uni until I was 24. So uh I spent I spent a long time like on the the train tracks, not too dissimilar to you, although you kept going a lot a lot longer. And then you step off and you're freewheeling. no idea how to drive and I'm trying to get my life in order and a big part of it is okay so you need a 25 year plan it's broken down into five year periods and it's one year like chunks and it's n 90day sprints and it's daily actions and you know and you sort of >> and I had no I just couldn't seem to get any further than about 6 months out I couldn't ever really see much further and I was like oh god I supposed to have a plan I'm supposed to know where I'm going and all the rest of it and um I understand Why? Especially if you've got a a little bit of a nervous disposition or you prefer a bit more order instead of chaos or structure like you do and I do too. >> Um because without the structure everything's a little bit scary and sort of I don't really know how the [ __ ] it's going to go. >> But I don't think that that's necessarily a sort of less viable approach for doing things. And especially if you are planning on stuff going very well, which everybody hopes that it's going to, >> you know what happens if the line starts to go vertical in whatever industry it is that you're doing? Uh >> the options that come out, it's stuff that you didn't even know that you didn't even know existed, you go, well, how was I supposed to prepare for this thing that I wasn't even aware that I wasn't even aware was an option? Like, oh my god. So, in that case, the plan would be out of the window within within 6 months. Oh, I've got my 25 year, 5 year blah blah blah. You're like, okay, 6 months into this 2026. It's like, [ __ ] it's out the window. So, I think being adaptable and being flexible and not not feeling too bad. Oh, I don't have a plan. I don't know what I'm supposed to. It's like, all right, are you talented? Do you work hard? And are you consistent? >> You probably don't need to worry all that much. I I was just thinking like obviously the way I was in football is is the way I've carried it on into my life after football is that I think you you do have to enjoy the journey. And I think yeah, people might be laser focused, they might be more successful than me. Um, but but I know it doesn't make them happier than me, >> right? And I think what is success in in life, right? It surely to me it's it's happiness, right? And if I'm happy, yeah, I might not be as as as elite or won as many things as certain people, but I've been happy the whole way along doing it. And again now um I think I I do things that I enjoy and I'm obviously very lucky that I've got the opportunity to do that. But um I think because I enjoy it, I think it people kind of enjoy it with me. >> Well, it's also enabled you the enjoyment of you doing the thing has enabled new things because you're having fun along the way. It's opened up these options. There are certain things that you can sort of grit your teeth through in a way. And I think that going from elite sport, what's interesting, going from elite sport where you're almost >> encouraged to ignore your emotions in per uh in replacement of the performance to what you do now, which is your emotions are the performance. The better your mood, the better the outcome for you having a chat or feeling relaxed or coming in here and having a laugh and you know, wow, there's that memory that I felt feel like in a good place with Chris today. energized and my brain's working well because I slept last night because I wasn't too stressed as opposed to it doesn't matter how you feel. Get on the pitch, run fast, and kick the ball in the goal. And um yeah, I I I think >> it's a a different sort of skill set, one that requires you to feel good. I think about this with comedians all the time. You know, >> your job is to go on stage >> and bring a vibe and and make people laugh. So you of maybe a therapist perhaps would be would be something similar. You know, you need to be attuned and and regulated. >> If you're spending all of your time having an argument with your misses, >> how are you supposed to turn up and do your thing? And I'm aware that that's going to be difficult as a football player, too. I'm sure that turning up after you've had a fight with the bird is not, >> you know, bizarrely that is actually is actually my the best football I ever played was when I was having problems off >> as a performance enhancer. >> Yeah. Yeah. For me, for me it was. Yeah. I was like, >> "Do you think that was you, too?" >> You know why? Because it's it's it's a safe place. It's like whatever's going on in the world, I want to go here and I'm gonna play football sanctuary. >> Yeah. I'm going to get away from And I think quite often with footballers in general, like quite often the players that I've met or been around have had tough upbringings, hard lives, and their escapism has always been kick go and kick a ball around, right? whatever's going on in the house, you know, their mom might be arguing with their dad. There might be fights that, you know, there's problems. You go out, you kick a ball around, all that goes away. And genuinely, that's how I how I felt, it was if I had problems off the field, I'll go in there and the moment obviously when I was playing professional football, the minute I drive through those gates, it's like I've left all those problems behind, it's like I've left them at the gate, and now I'm all I'm going to do is be a nine-year-old kid again. I'm going to go and play football with my mates. I'm going to have a laugh >> and then yeah, there'll be a world of problems out there the minute I go through those games again. [laughter] But that that's that's when I end up going to the gym and [ __ ] eat, you know, eating and staying ground until 5 p.m. >> videoing it on Instagram. That's it, you know. >> Yeah. Uh yeah, that's I mean, maybe you're right. Maybe maybe the comedians that are really struggling are are able to find >> I think that's harder for them. >> Yeah, you're bringing an emotional vibe as opposed to kind of forgetting it. It's, you know, it's it's less embodied as well, I think. uh you difference between let's say doing comedy and uh being a dancer. Both people are on stage. Both people need to bring a vibe, but one is getting to kind of like release some of that tension a little bit by moving their body. And uh same not true if you're if you're Jimmy Car. Speaking of Jimmy Car though, um >> his what is the meaning of life? His fiveword thing uh enjoying the passage of time. And what you said about there are people who are maybe more successful than me but also more miserable at the very least less happy. You should be asking yourself a question what are you doing this for? Presumably it is something like enjoying the passage of time. I'm trying to be successful so that I feel good. Like generally so that I feel good. And if in the pursuit of being successful I make myself feel miserable. You're sacrificing the thing that you want, which is success, for the thing which is supposed to get the thing that you want. >> Well, that that that's it. I think that's what work in general is. Like I, you know, I I think obviously the the the financial gain and things like that is, you know, certainly people want money so they can provide a more comfortable, happy lifestyle. I I think and you know if you can achieve that without without you know working so hard or putting yourself through that pain >> um if it is pain or if it's hard then if you can achieve that it's kind of like a cheat code you if you're happy you know when when is it enough you know like how much do you need to be to be happy I think um everyone wants to be comfortable of course but I think people who are in a you know a job that they don't like and you they feel like they have to do it. It's it's a such a difficult space especially in this day and age for for people to to juggle. Well, there's a certainly a case where if you already live a comfortable life and are choosing to reduce your quality of life in order to make more money, then it's a bad trade. >> Yeah, totally disagree with it. I think you you the the happiness is the most important thing. I think having a household that you you you enjoy coming back to is so important. Um you know when you walk through the door you going I've got to go in there you know because there are people that do that you know and and and thankfully I don't I go home and I think I look around and I'm happy and I and I want you know I just hope you hope everyone else feels that way but you know it's it's hard and they you know they probably probably don't. It's it's a difficult it's a difficult situation to navigate. Before we continue, if your sleep's not right, you're taking ages to nod off, waking up at random times, and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous's sleep hacks are here to help. They're not your typical knock you out supplement overloaded with melatonin. Just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning. I'm banking on you not being able to hit me. 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A check out [laughter] talking about emotions and sort of casting that stuff off. How did you deal with anxiety, adrenaline, performance, stress when you were playing? >> Yeah, I it's such a I've I've overcome it in lots of different ways, but um the nervousness used to get to me bad. Like I >> When were you most nervous? Um I think I I it mellowed towards the the end of my career. Like certainly when I got to a level where I was comfortable. I was playing for Liverpool, I was playing for England, people knew who I was. So I didn't have to keep proving myself. I think when I was young, I had to prove myself in every single match. It was very much like he can't play >> and I was like I'll show you. That was my whole life until I was about 24. And then when I was playing for England, when I was playing for Liverpool, everyone kind of, oh, we can play. I had to kind of stop. Obviously, I still had to keep proving myself, but became a little bit easier. Um, but the nervousness. Yeah. I mean, in the early days, certainly my first I mean I remember I've told this story before, but I was on the I got in my first England squad and I'm I got I was um I was starting the game and I remember we're going when the new Wembley was getting built. We're playing at Old Trafford and I'm in the I'm on the bus and I've got, you know, I'm sitting next to Steven Gerard, um Wayne Rooney's here, uh Rio Ferdinand, David Beckham, Gary Neville, um Michael Owen, all you know, household names, right? I'm sitting on this bus. I'm just thinking to myself, I'm looking around. I'm going, right, I'm starting out for England, the number nine, and I'm looking around at all these players. I'm thinking, you know, basically, how did I get here? Number one, Imposter syndrome. >> Yeah. A little bit. I was thinking, well, like these players are, you know, I watch these on the TV, you know, they're world class players and now I'm one of them, right? And then I remember sitting down, I remember looking down at this um pub. We were stuck in traffic on the way to Old Trafford and there was a fella there with a we had a pint and a paper and I just thought, [snorts] I'd love to be in right now. >> Any escape to get off the bus? Well, I just thought the nerves that were going through my body and and and I'm thinking the whole nation is watching this. It's all this stuff is going through my brain like you know all my friends and family >> don't don't mess this up. I'm thinking I'm looking at this fell now. He's got a pint of Guinness and he's not got a care in the world. No pressure. >> No pressure. But >> obviously that time I I would I would think I wonder if I could swap with him. But then after the game when you do when you overcome those nerves and you you've done well or you've scored and you thought back to your thought process before the game and then the thought process after and the the buzz the natural high that I've got, >> you just wouldn't change it for anything. It's the best feeling that you could ever have and I've ever had in my life. And then >> you know and then the next game I'm back to square one. [laughter] I'm I'm at that nervous energy again. >> Yeah. >> But there's something special about it. And you know, I've I've managed to do it in my in my life since I think we did a show for uh the BBC and it was um for the Euros. It was and it was live just after every England game and um you know I was the host of it and uh it was you know someone was in your ear and basically I'm going live on BBC and I'm thinking there's millions going to be watching this and that adrenaline kind of even though I'm not playing football anymore I kind of still got it. It was like right 10 9 and you get the countdown right and you and then I'm thinking don't swear don't fall over [laughter] and then you think I don't want to be here and then you go over it the show goes really well and you think >> that was just such a buzz. Yeah. >> Yeah. So cool. So funny how you just loop back to that same each uh realization then gets your memory wipe. It's like someone shakes the Etcher sketch and you go I'm back to star. I want to be the guy with the Guinness again. >> Yeah. I want to be >> I don't want to be I want to be the guy with the this perpetual loop. >> Yeah. I um >> was there a period as well? So you said on the bus was a a specific time of nerves dressing room tunnel. When does that start to drop off? Is there a moment typically that was sort of peak adrenaline anxiety and then when it tailed? Yeah, I think you know I would I was very good at masking it. Like um certainly in the in the dressing room beforehand, I would always be you'd think I was the most relaxed man in the room. You know, I was laughing and joking. I would always, you know, people would get in a zone and have music on. I tried that a couple of times. I was like, it's not for me. I'm too too much in my own thoughts. >> I want to bounce off people, have a laugh, do a few keep ups, take my mind off what's really about to happen. Um, so yeah, outwardly people would think, oh, super confident, but inside I'm thinking, you know, >> it's another coping mechanism for >> being around people. >> I had that with um the live shows. So I'm going on tour around America and Canada at the back end of this year and I did the Apollo 3 and a half thousand people last November and uh I tried a bunch of different thing. I I got a breath work coach and I'm going to do breath work. I'm nervous. >> I I was [ __ ] myself. Um, I I was [ __ ] myself before I found the way to get ready, at least for me. And a lot of the things that I love to do uh in my personal development life, the breath works, the journaling, the meditation, the little mantra stuff, uh, all of that I thought, well, I've got tons of experience in this. I've got thousands of sessions of doing this, so I'll lean on what I know. But it's at least for me and I resonate with what you say that like I tried a strategy that worked for other people or may have even worked for you but in a different situation. Um it didn't work for me in this one. So the best thing that I found and this I you I've got addiction and speech coach to uh do tongue warm-ups to ensure that I'm able to pronounce my words nice and quickly and I've got my brain moving. I'm doing improv exercises. The best thing I found was just to get 10 of my loud friends in the dressing room and talk [ __ ] That is exactly how I do it as well. Genuinely. Yeah. Just get in. Take your mind off things. There are people that like that you say that laser focus that don't speak to me. I'm in the zone, you know. I'm not one of those people. I'm I need chaos around me, you know, just let's just talk, you know. Yeah. Yeah. We've got, you know, >> we've got a cup final or, you know, we're playing at a World Cup. But I think the more I took my mind off things, the more relaxed I was, the the better I was. You'd still have those nerves and that adrenaline, which you need, I think, to to compete at the highest level. But you you you those those nerves that hold you back, you get rid of those. >> Yeah, I would agree. >> One of the other sets of stats that I saw, have you seen the statistics around how many players go bankrupt >> after retiring? Seems like around about 40% of Premier League players go bankrupt within five years of retirement. Have you got any idea what's going on there? I I maybe even for the Americans, >> British footballers in the Premier League really regardless of how often you're playing are paid incredibly well. It's an amount of money that to most normal people, I think, or even probably quite wealthy people, you >> it's going to be tough to burn through that, especially in 5 years. >> And yet >> 40% of Premier League players go bankrupt within 5 years of retirement. Why do you think that is? >> Yeah, I think you know, bad advice. I mean there was a program I watched last night the two nights ago um just you know certain people there's there's there's there's sharks around football dressing rooms that you know they know that players are are very well paid um and if they can get on the inside of that dress room then um you various um financial advisers that have advised badly that definitely help um doesn't help um bad investments um you know the the the pain the difficulty of dealing with not playing football every day, not having that structure, um drinking, you know, maybe doing things that they shouldn't be doing, you know, breakups of marriages. Um you know, it can hit you financially in in lots of different ways. And um I was very conscious of that because I've seen it firsthand. Um you know, two three of the play I've played with three players that have tried to kill themselves. um you know and I'm not speaking out of turn because they they come on my podcast and talked about it and Lee Hendry was one of them um who I had no idea you know Aston Villa he was going through that kind of you know he was he was >> this post retirement >> yeah post retirement you know he had a divorce um you know he he went bankrupt and um the same thing and you know he was in a situ but but because of football and it's very much that kind of manup scenario he didn't feel like I'm a good friends with him he never said one word >> even after you're no longer in dressing room. So that um manup mentality is carried over into personal life after playing. >> You want to save face. I mean you know this is this is a player that played at top level play for England. You know one thing's is his home club. You know Aston Villa you from Birmingham. He's a legend in the area. You know everyone knows him and you know I think yeah I I had a conversation with him after and I just I wish I'd kind of wish I'd known more you know. Um, Clark Kau, a player I played with QPR. You know, the I'm not speaking out of turn. These are well doumented things. You know, he's he's admitted it himself that he he jumped in front of I think it was a a bus. Um, you know, that this is horrendous, you know, and it's like, how do you get to that point? The player that I knew, the person that I knew was so far away from that, you know, he was a leader, he was our our captain. Um, just you don't know what's going on in people's heads. is is my situation and is is is is what I'm trying to say. And um you obviously you feel for for these players and and I do think that that more needs to be done to to help players that you know kind of aren't fortunate enough to maybe maybe work after football and um it is it's a tough tough situation. I know they're going through it obviously with the in the NFL. You know quite often the players are going bankrupt there or um you know the injuries are horrendous as well. um maybe there's not not quite enough afterare for these for these players. >> I don't need to talk about that. I looked at some stats around the severity of CTE for football players, our football, >> heading the ball. >> As somebody who has some records to do with using their head and the ball, >> is this something that you've tapped into to have a look at? Have you done brain scans? Are you concerned? >> I have. Yeah. You know what? like the and listen you know I'm not I'm not sell poor footballers we head the ball you know like I'm pretty sure boxers have it worse than we do you know um but there is a there's definitely a link it's been proven that um there is a link between heading the ball and and dementia and um that did concern me because I headed the ball I mean listen when I was a kid I wasn't good I wasn't very good at heading so I like I said before I was I wanted to be a skillful player. I wanted to be the type of player that um you know was good with his feet. I didn't even think about >> got big heads. >> Yes. But then I was like six foot five and think you know and losing headers to people that were you know 5'5. It was embarrassing basically. So I had to train myself to be good at in the air and I remember being 13 14 15 my skulls growing and I would head the ball until I couldn't see anymore. Um I would head it consistently because I thought it was practice right? I I didn't know that the the the the concerns now obviously, but I I I genuinely used to get um someone's cross the ball and I'd head it consistently until I couldn't I saw stars. And I would do that as a young lad three, four times a week till I'd be like, "Right, I can't I can't see anything anymore. Stars in my eyes. Um session over. >> Session's over." Yeah. And then I'd be back at it the next day. So, it cannot be good for you. It cannot be good for you. So yeah, I did I went I think it was Alan Sheir who did a documentary about it and I um I watched that documentary and I booked myself in the next day. I was like I need to I need to see someone about and you know obviously I'm okay at the moment but I think it's something I'm just aware of now which is which is a good thing. >> Um I'm more aware of the fact that perhaps I need to look out for >> for signs of of this. >> Yeah, it's uh >> I don't know. I I I I I'll just have to do a little bit more research. >> I think you're right. Certainly boxes are in the firing line a little bit more. >> But there is something about the kinetic like power of a big sometimes wet with water on it making it heavier ball coming and the pace that it comes in at and the fact that you're going to meet it as opposed to even if you're being punched, you're tending to move backward as that happens. Uh yeah, it's it's it's not good. I I was thinking about um Tim Kennedy, UFC fighter, green beret man from Austin, Texas. Scary. He talked about sort of what the early days of UFC training were like and it was not touch sparring. It was people got knocked down in training whereas now the last thing that you want is a concussion at any point. Um especially in training. I guess you take one in the match in the fight. I guess other than the fact it means that you've lost. uh but because it is predisposing you uh not only to all of these really scary health uh problems down the line, but it's also predisposing you to then be knocked out more easily in subsequent fights and stuff like that. >> And uh now the world is totally different. It's all sort of very light sort of touch sparring stuff and that is >> uh their solution to sort of keep themselves safe. I wonder, it wouldn't surprise me if you looked at the youth setup now if when they're practicing heading the ball, they're using a particularly lighter ball in some way. I have to assume there's some sort of interventions that happen. >> No, listen. Kids don't head the ball now. Um, there's a certain age bracket. You have to be over a certain age. It's all below head height until they get to a certain age where they're allowed to. Yeah. I mean, the schools and stuff like that, they don't they don't head it at all. >> For this reason? >> Yeah. For this for this reason. Yeah. come in and um you know there's they'll play matches where it's it's no heads you're not not allowed to head it um and I think yeah I mean listen um I I ended up with the most Premier League headed goals uh I've got the record to this day and um so I'm over the moon about that situation [laughter] the the least people head it I I'll have that forever hopefully you know [laughter] >> oh good I didn't realize you meant that this is a moat that's which is good for me. No, I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing that um >> you know that that we're more aware of the situations now. Um and I think, you know, I would think twice. Listen, my my my child I would I would not encourage him to to be working on heading at, you know, they're they're six and seven. Their brains are are far too fragile. And I don't know whether it's me going soft or what, but you know the the the the science behind it now just pushes me to the fact that I don't think we should be practicing heading certainly at that age. >> Would it be hard you think to be a footballer today with social media and smartphone use? I have to assume that the stories of you partying >> while you were playing uh might be a little bit more viral or or at least a little bit more >> widely scrutinized now than it would have been in 2006. >> Yeah, I think um I I would find it tough to be to be a player in this day and age. I mean, listen, it was hard enough getting yourself psyched up to go to away grounds back in that, you know, that was bad enough cuz you knew you're just going to get abused from the moment you left the bus all the way, you know, for that little walk where you get absolutely screamed at. You get into the into the stadium, you just got 50, 60, 70,000 people screaming abuse at you. Um, that was bad enough. Then to get home and get back on the bus and flick on my phone and see thousands of other people abusing you, I think would be would be incredibly hard. And no matter what you say, you say just don't look at it. Right. And we're all the same. You know, people do you can't help it. It's it's it's a drug, isn't it? >> You got the app on your phone, you use it when you're not getting [ __ ] So I'm going to use it. Ah, [ __ ] I'm getting [ __ ] >> Yeah. And I mean, you know, my way of coping with having a bad game, for instance, was I wouldn't buy the newspapers the next day and I'd give match of the day a miss. you know, that was that was pretty much it. Um, >> much easier to hide. >> Yeah, that was easier for me to to not listen to the to the negativity. Whereas nowadays, I think, you know, that that negativity and and everyone is very it's more extreme now. It's very much like you have to be, you know, you're either the worst player in the world or you're the the best player anyone's ever seen. You know, there's no there's no gray areas, is there? You have to be one or the other. >> You've probably heard me talk about element before. Come on. Frankly, that's because I'm dependent on it and it's how I've started every morning for the last 3 years. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. Each graand go stick pack contains a sciencebacked electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, or any other junk. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings. The orange flavor Uh-huh. in a cold glass of water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar and I genuinely feel the difference versus when I've started it and when I've used it and when I haven't. Anyway, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. So, you can buy it and try it for as long as you want and if you don't like it for any reason, they will give you your money back and you don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. And right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. What do you make of the British fan culture around football? because it's only since moving to America that I have seen sports where different teams intermingle. I guess rugby has this, >> but the atmosphere at a rugby game is quite different. >> I remember seeing a video of an American guy that had come over to the UK and he said that watching sports in the UK is like watching two armies of people getting ready to go to war. I I for people who don't live in the UK and haven't been to a Premier League English Premier League game, it's kind of it's probably pretty shocking I think actually to observe what fans do to each other >> verbally and what they do to the players and that >> level of >> aggression and vitriol and and uh intensity. >> What do you make of that? To obviously be totally honest, I I I wouldn't change it for the world. I genuinely love it. I think the game of of football as I know it. I I mean, when I look at games that I want to go to, for instance, right, I want to go to an old firm game, Rangers and Celtic. I've not done that yet. I want to go to uh River Plate versus Bocker Juniors in in Argentina. I want to go to the, you know, Brazil derbies. I want to go to derbies, games that matter. I want to see red and blue and I want to and that tribalism for me makes our game so special. And I do understand there's a time and a place and I've been to rugby matches and I've been to cricket games. I've been to, you know, games where it isn't segregated and I have the time of my life. I have a lovely time. I'm sitting next to someone, you know, an Irish fan and England and Ireland are playing in Scotland. Sorry, England and Ireland are playing a rugby and I'm having a beer with them and that's great. But there is something to be said about I hate you. I want to I want to win so much. [laughter] I do I do think that that this kind of game of ours is that's what it is. It's it's religion. It's um you know quite often it is religion that that's you know come together through football and it makes the game more passionate and more >> uh and yeah overspills and people go too far. Don't get me wrong like there are there are occasions where it goes too far. you know, the hooliganism, you know, that era. I hope that's behind us. That there are still people that take it too far. We don't want to see that. Of course we don't. But I still do want to see, you know, that hatred. Like I I when I was playing for Liverpool and I went to Goodison Park and I could see the hatred on people's faces. Like I enjoyed the I enjoy that. I I want to see that. >> You got a bit of a buzz. >> As long as you shake hands after the game and you go, "Right, you know that we've done it. You know, that's that." There is something and you know the tackles flying in. I I don't know whether it's something I'm a bit old school but it makes me you know you can see the way I'm talking about it. I'm animated. I'm like we can't take this away from the game that we love. It is it overspills sometimes. But for me that passion is what makes game special. >> It would be very difficult to police. You know if you were to say this is too thug like it is unsophisticated and we need to step in and and and and ch change the game. Good luck with that. Good luck. I mean, what what by law do you intend on trying to apply and enforce to English football fans at uh Evan Derby? >> No, I I I don't want anyone to change that. I I listen when when we go away sometimes with England things things spill over and you know no one wants to see it and um but that passion has to remain and I think you can be passionate for your team you know and almost borderline aggressive at times >> disrespectful in the stadium respectful on the walk home. Yeah, I think so. And you know, I see this football's changed from when I was when I used to go to football with my dad in the in the 80s and my dad would tell you in the 70s before. Football's changed a hell of a lot now. You know, I see a lot more families attending games. Yeah, there is still that tribalism, but it's controlled. >> You've been with your wife for nearly 20 years now. >> Is that rare for an ex-professional footballer? I don't know how successful very long-term during career to postc career and further marriages are. I don't know what the attrition rate of a professional footballer's marital life is. >> No, I'd say I'd say lower. I'd say you know definitely lower than 20 years. I think you know we are we are lucky in that respect. Um and happy. So, um I I've seen lots of players go through the mill and have difficulties quite often when they've finished um >> around that transition. >> Yeah. But quite often as well, you know, you you're away a lot, you know, especially if you're playing with England and you're playing in Europe, you're away most of the time really. And quite often if you if you if you if you retire and you're at home every day and all of a sudden it's like who are you? You're here every day. So you're saying maybe um >> the distance can hide some incompatibilities in in relationships that then sort of come to the surface when when >> why why you here so much? Oh [ __ ] you've retired. You're not a training. You're not playing. >> Yeah. You know, and it's very much like I don't want this to be my life, you know. I think that that case obviously depression, you know, kicks in. I think certainly when you it's very hard to recreate those heights of playing football and achieving things playing in front of being adored by so many people and scoring a goal. >> Forgotten about what does my life mean now? >> Yeah. And it's it's self-reflection, isn't it? I mean that can be very difficult. Um but yeah, for me and and and and Abby, we're we are happy. Yeah. um and continue to be and uh yeah, god we have our moments like you know we play that out in front of everyone on the podcast but um we have a laugh and I think that is genuinely the uh the the the key to our success is the fact that we enjoy people we enjoy our company. >> What would be your advice to somebody trying to have a partnership in the limelight? >> Um well certainly don't take things too seriously I think. um you know definitely don't be someone you're not. I've I've realized that, you know, and I've seen it so many times with people I've met over the years. You're like, "Wa, >> it's so different to the person that you you come across as, you know, and I think um I think the one thing that certainly whether you dislike me or or or Abby, I think the one thing that you can't say is that we're not the same people. anyone around us who listens to our podcast or or or or meets us out and about would say that we we're exactly the same as as what you see um wherever you see it. >> Mhm. Yeah. I think one of the fortunate things about longer form conversations, especially if you start getting in the mix and you're hosting, you're guesting. Sometimes it's solo, sometimes it's with regular people, sometimes it's with new experts, sometimes it's you on a, you know, in a >> 200 year old church. Um, uh, by doing that, it is a pretty good solvent to strip away too much fakery. It's really tough >> to hold a persona for >> hundreds of hours a year. the amount of people that I like I meet I meet though and I've been fortunate enough to meet so many you know amazing people people I respect look up to and uh yeah it's amazing when you actually kind of do strip them back get the the real them that you think I wish I hadn't met them [laughter] >> I wish I'd just kept it like that you know um but then on the on the flip side of that I have met people that I thought you know maybe you you wouldn't get on with that you think oh my god They're amazing. >> And that is a lovely cuz you regardless of what you think you you do, you do make judgments. You make instant judgments on people wherever you go. And even if you haven't met them, if I watch something, you know, they might be acting >> and I'm I'm already making a judgment on what they're like as a person. I suppose that's one of the problems of people getting pigeonholed by roles. You know, some of the guys from the Inbetweeners or some of the guys from American Pie or whatever. you know, you launch your career into such a particular uh niche >> and not only do future casting directors struggle to pull you outside of that, but the general public I have a friend that was on a really famous American TV show and we were in Soho House and uh in in Austin, Texas. We sat down at dinner. Me, him, and two friends and [laughter] like hen party comes in, turns, sees him, all of them squeal like Toby and like point and my friend is like gh. It was almost like because the show's been out for quite a while now, but this was huge 10, 15 years ago and he lived through all of that. And it was almost like watching it happen was a little bit like someone flicking a special switch >> that put him back into this war zone he'd come from previously because it was a trigger of somebody doesn't see me, >> somebody sees this thing. I'm this representation. And it was evident that most of his intera not most some of his interactions from the past had not been superbly >> uh validating. They'd been in many ways probably invalidating like I don't see you. It would be like someone looking at you and seeing number nine or seeing 140 whatever goals things like >> it'd be like that. >> But at the very least >> you are the person that you are on the pitch. is just this special version of you as opposed to Yeah. as an actor. That must be so tough. As a comedian. Oh, [ __ ] hell, mate. I thought you were funnier than this. I'm in the newspaper. [laughter] You get the newspaper for the morning. I'm getting coffee. What do you mean? [ __ ] hell. >> Dance dance monkey dance. >> Yeah, I do. I listen. I get it myself. You know, like I I did a I did a funny dance years ago and still to this day people come over to me and say, "Do the robot. Do the robot." Everywhere I go, there's kids that weren't even born when I was doing the robot. And um they were like they say it to me and and that's something that that I've kind of learned to live with. But I I I actually love it. I absolutely love it. Like it's something that >> is is part of me, you know? I did I did this mental dance when I >> You do need to own it. You you you did this to you. >> Yeah, I did. I did. Yeah. But it came from a good place, right? It came from I'm going to this is going to be funny. And it, you know, it was. And then um but even now like I'm trying to think when I when I did it 2005 right 20 years right so I got kids 8 years old that I'm guarantee if I walk down this street here now there'll be someone to shout something about the robot and they're they're 8 years old and I think you know you weren't you weren't born when this was happening >> but the the fact that you know that people enjoy it and I see the smile on people's faces like I don't buy into this kind of you know you've done something great you've done you've done something that's resonated with people >> you've done something so if you are acting and yeah you have been pigeonholed a little bit but it resonated with people love it like >> do you >> embrace it >> yeah I that's what I that's what I try and >> dude you've got such I think you've got such a great philosophy around this and like you're really living it it's very admirable uh and I think it's a >> a wonderful role model for how to deal with attention well you from. >> Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Thank you. >> Uh it certainly seems like that. And again, just to like laugh it off. >> Well, that's it. You know, like listen, it can get a bit much. If I'm if I'm, you know, walking somewhere with the family and some, you know, a couple of group of lads are shouting it, I might say, "Leave it." Give us a give us a give it a rest. But the kids, when I see the kids' faces and they're like, "Go on." Like I I usually tell them I've got a robot injury, so I can't do it. But um >> it's like your dad with a hamstring. >> That's it. But they just, you know, they they they want to see it and it's a bit a bit of fun. You think, you know, that that might make their day, so, you know, why not? >> Oh, yeah. Peter Crouch, ladies and gentlemen. You're awesome, man. >> No, thank you. Thank you. >> Really appreciate you. Where should people go to keep up to date with all the stuff that you're doing right now? >> Yeah. No, we I do that Peter Crouch podcast. Uh I do the therapy crouch. So, the that Peter Crouch podcast is uh the football podcast I do, which is very tongue and cheek. We have a laugh, but we've been everywhere doing it. Um, we've ended up, we interviewed Prince William, we've had Elton John on, we've had, um, Sir Roj Stewart we did recently. Um, we've been to places that we never thought we we we would be, you know, and that's just all having a laugh and talk about football. So, that is something that I love to do. Um, and the therapy crouch is is obviously a play on words um with myself and my wife Abby and we talk about um relationships. Um, and we have a laugh at our own relationships. Very tongue and cheek again. Um, but I love doing it and uh hopefully I continue to do it and um, you know, it's a privilege being on yours. Um, you know, continue to do what you do. It's it's great. >> Thank you, man. I appreciate you. >> Appreciate it. >> Thank you very much for tuning in to an episode with the tallest Modern Wisdom guest [music] of all time. Uh, if you want to watch one with potentially the most dangerous, Bugsy Malone, British rapper, all round interesting human, he's right here. Come on.