The Scientific Formula for a "Healthy Day" | Dr. Kelly Starrett

Pain is a part of the [music] human experience and we'll mask it and certainly medicalize it, but you know, [music] and we really haven't done a good job talking about it. Pain doesn't always mean you're injured. All of the pros, everyone I've ever worked with is basically like, I've never been 100%. Pain is a request for change. >> Let's translate that to the opposite of exercising and moving to what most of us are spending, [music] I would say, the majority of our day >> doing, which is sitting. Walking 8,000 steps a day reduces all cause mortality by 51%. That's a pretty good bargain. >> You have this great quote, "Train for life, don't live to train." So, where do we start? >> The First Order business is >> Welcome back to the podcast. I'm really excited to be sitting here with Dr. Kelly Starret, who I kind of sounds cheesy, but like I mean this is this is 10 years in the making, I feel like. I mean, I've known about your work for a very long time. And it really wasn't until I started to get into CrossFit training that it kind of popped back up into my my head and my world. >> Why Why is that? [laughter] >> Why is that? I mean I mean, you're a legend. You're a legend, Kelly. So, I'm super excited to have this conversation with you and um we were kind of chatting about where to start because there's it's a really hard decision where to start. There's so many fun things to talk about, right? So many fun things. >> And we're in the we're in what we're calling >> the beginning of third wave of fitness and strength and conditioning. Like first wave, you remember, was like power nut malt malt nut power bars, bad hearty monitors. Second wave is just this this fever dream over the last 20 years of like mass integration and technology and YouTube. And now we're finally saying, okay, well, what can we discard and and really what does matter to us? And I think uh it's really an exciting time potentially where we can say, "Okay, that was some craziness." We live in these very decorative rooms like your grandma's room with all the doilies. It's like oppressive and you don't know where to start or where to sit. That's where we've just come from. So now, how do we take that pastiche of strength and conditioning, fitness, body composition, bodybuilding, and then say, "Well, where what's important for your kids? How do you have this body that you trust doesn't hurt?" It's really It's a good time. >> Yes. What lessons have we learned? Um, a body that doesn't hurt. That's kind of a great place to start. I mean, I I have this question about common mistakes that I would say people that are like myself, you know, we're intelligent, very much committed, motivated exercisers, and yet we still have this pain and, you know, we're working out with the pain. What are some common mistakes that you know myself and others that are like me are making? >> Let's frame this first that pain doesn't always mean you're injured, right? We want everyone to recognize pain is a request for change. That's a great place to start. And so you can use it a little bit like a check engine light. So when your knee hurts after that run or that thing you did, don't panic. It's giving you it's asking, hey, pay attention. And that can be modulated by a lot of features that people are starting to get their hands around. Oh, you're super stressed. Went drinking last night. Didn't sleep right. How's your nutrition as starters? Much less, we haven't even talked about your range of motion or did you warm up or did you cool down? Did you just redline like an elite athlete? Because we have access to that now and then sit at your desk the rest of the day. Sort of not really having a good adaptation response. So, when we begin to pull that, I think the first thing we can start to say is, "Hey, let's become curious. Let's not catastrophize." Cuz it really is like what we expect is I'm going to have any pain. It's like when I was 15, my back hurts. It must be rabies. It must be, you know, I've I've tweaked myself in some way that potentially is going to be really detrimental and never never figure it out versus, hey, my body's asking for some input. What tools do I have? And when do I even begin to think, do I need help or not? Because when we ask all the people we work with, who's painfree? very few hands go up. And so what we have to do is start to say, okay, maybe pain is a part of the human experience. And we really haven't done a good job talking about it. We've got a good job masking it and certainly medicalizing it, but you know, what about your kids? When your kid comes home after soccer and she has a painful heel or painful knee, like where do we begin to not freak out and yet self soo a little bit? I think that's a really wonderful place to start. >> I for myself, you know, I I get this sort of nagging pain. I mean, I have one in my shoulder and I have a little bit like in the tendon in my forearm and it's not enough that it's like an injury where I can't work out. >> That's right. >> But it's enough where I do feel more limited in my workouts. And often times I'll, you know, with I work with a coach as you know, she's amazing, Zia War. But, you know, she'll say, "Okay, well, let's >> let's do a different movement today because you're feeling a little bit more pain if you're doing, you know, for example, like heavy deadlifts." >> Yeah. But, you know, for someone that has their nutrition pretty much dialed in to the for the most part and get enough sleep, you know, so like some of the the pillars of health are there and yet you still have the pain like where where do you start to look like first? >> What a great great entree. You're like, I think I'm doing it right. So, when I work with people who have persistent pain, chronic pain, which by the way, nearly all of my athlete friends, um, all of the pros, everyone I've ever worked with is basically like I've never been 100%. Maybe when I was 10 years old, I was 100%. Everything else is working around some discomfort or a tweak. And if you ever play a sport, I mean, god forbid, you're going to get tweaked, right? The gym is actually the safest place on the planet to really control the variables. So what we can start to say is well hey the first order of business is I don't care what it is I just don't want to have it right just get me back to and we can do that through a lot of simple tools called desensitization because as everyone knows thanks large part to this podcast too your brain does not inter your brain interprets what's going on with your body your your your elbow isn't screaming pain your brain thinks that that is maybe a threat signal or it's interpreting this this symptom, this information as threat. And so what we want because we have seen all the time where someone's like limping around and some beautiful people walk by, the limp goes away, you know, and then they're limping again. And so you can really override these things. And if you've ever been in a fight, have you ever been in a fight? >> Like [snorts] a physical fight? >> Yeah. No. >> Oh, okay. So the dirtiest secret about fighting is you don't feel any pain while you're fighting because your brain is like that's not important right now. You're going to feel pain after the fight, but during the fight, less pain. So does the activation of the sympathetic nervous system play a role in that? >> Yes. Yes. And so we can override these things. [gasps] What we try to say is, hey, what are the tools available to you? Could you scrape? Can you cup? Can you massage? Can you do some isometrics? What about some percussion? Or there are some simple ways we're like, okay, feels better. Let's move. And it creates a window of opportunity for us to move, which is the same tools and techniques we use for all of our teams, right? We're still going to go out and march. When we define injury, which is something clever, is that hey, it's not so bad that I need to go get help. That's a that's the marker where suddenly I can't occupy my role in my family, can't do my job, right? If your back hurts so bad, you're not going to work. That's a medical emergency, right? All the red flags, night, sweats, dizziness, fever, vomiting, nausea, that seems obvious. Your child has a fever. She's not, you know, doesn't need a voodoo floss or knee. Hey, there's a clear mechanism of injury. My I tweaked my I felt a pop. There's a bone sticking out of my leg, stepped off a curb. Okay, those are clear indicators that I need to activate the e emergency medical system. Everything else is a feature of training and nutrition and sleep. In fact, we want to treat pain just like loss of range of motion, just like loss of force production. It's just another sort of data like, oh, HRV is off, little pain. We should see those as as similar in terms of the information they give us, right? Except, you know, you can have crappy sleep and poor recovery and still, you know, but that's annoying. So then we can ask, well, hey, is there some decongestion that could happen in these tissues? Well, suddenly we're like, oh, I understand why sauna and walking and compression and normate boots and maybe I use an NMEES device or lymphatic drainage or voodoo. There's a lot of things we could do to facilitate moving congestion, moving swelling up the chain and clearing it because a congested tissue like you know someone has OA in their knee osteoarthritis and there they haven't done anything but the knee has reacted to the loading and maybe the nutrition and the sleep and whatever and now it's swollen and so what we're thinking is hey the typical person can run around with a congested tissue and that congestion can rate limit healing but it also limit blood flow. But also it can very much be the driver of sensitivity. So you can sensitize a tissue by having kind of congestion in an old tissue. Then we could ask, well, what about blood flow? Did it get better once you warmed up? Cuz yeah, once you start to warm up, starts to feel better. Ah, that's probably not a problem. That's, you know, the brain saying, hey, let's get some some blood flow. How do we take the garbage out, bring the groceries in? And the last thing we say is, well, what about the range of motion? Because that never gets checked, right? Well, I can do what I want to do well enough, but what if it was that you had a big chunk of missing range of motion? Well, suddenly we could improve that. You can improve that while working on these other systems. And by the time we've worked through that little rubric, chances are your brain's like, "It's not a problem. Let's go lift." >> All right. So, when it comes to foam rollers, I mean, it's something that I've heard such mixed data and evidence. And I say heard because I haven't really dived into the literature myself to to look at what it says, but you've got real world experience. You know the science. Um, can foam rolling help you work through, you know, a painful Yes. point. How do we do it? Like what should I be doing? >> So, let's start with that. Uh, foam roller doesn't solve all the problems. If it solved all the problems, there'd be no problems. We've gotten that message, right? But uh you may need a smaller ball, you may need something harder, you might need something that fits your body a little differently. There's no We always talk in a systems approach that if laying on the ground and rolling back and forth fixed knee cancer, we would have fixed knee rabies already. Like we would have solved these problems. The research is clear though that can help with range of motion. It can help with blood flow. It can help desensitize painful things and pretty soon if we haven't defined our terms, it can be a little sticky. So if I have you laying your quad, your quads on a roller and then contract and relax, that's a very sophisticated thing we're doing there. We're teaching your brain it's safe to develop force in this position. But that's just really a sneaky version of an isometric again, right? Um, so suddenly we realize that, you know, if I give context to some of the soft tissue work I'm doing instead of just laying down and hoping I'm pressing guess, I'm a little bit more thoughtful about, hey, I'm going to work above an area of pain, work below an area of pain, recognizing that maybe my calves or my quads could be contributing to knee pain. We find that when people get enough of a dose of something, we tend to say, "Hey, let's limit this to 5 minutes per muscle system so you don't overdo it, but we can actually get in there long enough that we can make some change. That seems to make a difference." Um, if it's so painful that you're not breathing, you're just signaling threat and contracting all the time, that's no good. So, one of the things we like to say to people is, "Hey, let's make sure you can take a breath while you're doing that." So, there two kind of rules that you're never going to overdo it is if you can breathe. It might be really uncomfortable, but you should breathe. And number two, you should be able to control. You should be able to contract. So if you're overwhelming your nervous system where you can't have any muscle control, maybe that's a little bit too much. Um, and then, you know, keep in mind that uh there's a lot of body workers in the world. So either they're scamming us because there's so many massage, Thai massage, shiatsu, like or there's something to that. And even if we just said, "Hey, how about the whole thing is just about low side of control that you get home and you're like, "Something hurts and I have some agency and control over it." Making long-term tissue changes. We got to load. We need to move. We have to, you know, but this is a powerful tool to get out of pain, restore range of motion, right? To improve blood flow, to downregulate. Um, we like to do the soft tissue work in the evening, for example. So number one, you we're already sitting on the ground. But if we do engage in 10 minutes of soft tissue work, we found that that had a huge parasympathetic input like a massage. You no one gets up off the massage table and like let's fight. Just doesn't happen, right? But a little bit of self massage, you're signaling to the brain it's safe. You're relaxing. You're touching things that are tight or restricted or restoring how tissues are sliding and gliding. And then we'll get the rest of it tomorrow. And what you'll find is that your brains is like we sit on the ground, then we do the soft tissue, then we go to bed. Now you're starting to be set up a habit. Now you start to downregulate your breathing changes. That's really really powerful. Soft tissue work is one feature of the whole system. It's not the only feature. Isometrics are really powerful, but what's most important is that we have a range of motion we're trying to improve and we're doing test retest on that range of motion. Did that restore? Or you mentioned DOMS to lean on some muscle soreness. Work out really hard. You went for a run. That running is getting those tissues sliding and gliding again, right? Just restoring those free nerve endings, getting fascia to move. I submit that and the research supports that if you do soft tissue work after heavy training, decrease your doms. So, is that valid to have less soreness and pain after training? Seems good to me. I liken that. I'll point two resources for you. There's I think it's flexibility research incredible Instagram follow all of the science all of the research really you know very clear and then my friend Brent Brookush the Brook Bush Institute has written and aggregated so much research about the science of all this that I want to talk about how we have integrated the science into actual practice that's my expertise but if you really want go to the Brookbush Institute there's So much research there about you know what these things do, how effective they are, interrator reliability, etc., etc. >> Can you tell me about this misconception that you need soreness to have had a good workout? >> Oh, right. >> I mean, I I had that mentality for I don't even know how long. I mean, I still battle it. I'm still like, where was it? [laughter] >> I'm not sore enough. How about this? you train and you actually felt good and then you could I mean move you everyone who's a beginner you're going to be sore sorry sorry not sorry you know um you're going to get off the toilet and you're going to you know you're going to have you're going to curse out your coach and these squats right but what we start to see is over time that soreness gets in the way of your performance right decreased force production you the goal is to have this right adaptation response where we can still go out and perform but not be so brutalized and sore that we're surprised and it diminishes us. So, you don't have to get sore, but we want to have enough of a stimulus to disrupt homeostasis. And your mileage may vary based on your nutrition. I recently found out um I was needed to get on an iron supplement. Me, right? Isn't that interesting? Curious was not taking enough omega-3s. you you recently were like, "Hey, probably need up that." I was taking my daily dose, my omega-3 index, not sufficient. Get on the iron, get on the omega-3s. Guess who gets less sore in his training? This guy. Because uh you know, we can So there what my point is that there's a lot of things we can do to mitigate soreness, but just we're going to do a bunch of work until you're sore. And I think that's progress. That's not progress, >> right? And also perhaps you're just using, you know, muscle groups that you don't often use, right? I mean, that's >> Yeah. The other thing um >> and and more importantly, did all that soreness change your bone density? Did you get stronger? Like what what are your metrics? Like you're just sore? You did a bunch of work and are sore. Again, there's no you haven't moved the needle. You just created a lot of noise, >> right? Uh speaking of soreness, the the other thing I wanted to ask you about, and this is a problem I've had for many years, but I also know at least two to three other women who have the exact same problem. And no, it's not frozen shoulder. It's overhead weight. So like having like you know if you're doing a snatch I guess right or like doing weight overhead whether it's dumbbells or a barbell or anything that's you know weight and it having a having a neck problem with it like not while you're doing it so much but like the next day that that's really persistent. So um have you do you have any idea is this like a r a mobility problem? Do you know what I'm talking about? Have you heard of this? >> Well, first of all, let's say that there's very much technique involved with putting weights over our head as effectively and powerful as we could. I know you have an excellent coach. Number two is that we might become curious about the fact that, hey, I have tissues that are really fibroic and stiff. Is there anything we could do about that? So, if we just played press and guess, traps feel tight afterwards, like let's get you on a roller, let's get you on a ball, let's start working. and see if we can restore motion to these segments and and then run our test again. Does it make us feel better? Then we could also ask, do you have full range of motion overhead? And it could be that you're working in positions because you have incomplete overhead position. You can still do it and it doesn't hurt, but you're not doing it as efficiently. And maybe this signal is one of those things that you're we could improve that. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is something like even back when, you know, >> and I believe in serial anecdotal empiricism, which is what you described. >> Yeah, it is. And and it's even with lighter dumbbells, like if I do, you know, eight eight with each hand. So, I'm 16 total overhead presses, you know, and it's like I I've been avoiding the overhead press because of fear of activating. And it is the traps that get sore and sometimes it even spasms. But um it's it's something that I've now two friends, two girlfriends that have the exact same problem where they can't do overhead presses. >> And how reasonable that you're like, "Hey, I do this exercise and it hurts me or makes me hurt or I don't feel good afterwards. I'm a little afraid of doing that exercise. That seems very reasonable to me." >> Well, the neck pain, I mean, it'll it'll last. It'll affect my sleep. I mean, then it's like this vicious cycle. So, you know, and I've seen a physical therapist about it and it's kind of like, well, is it a compensation thing where you're like, you know, like you were mentioning, maybe I'm not as full range of motion and so something else is tightening up or I'm comp overcompensating in some other way that's not really being >> beneficial. an easy way to start. So number one is I would say hey let's start getting you some hanging where your arms are parallel over your head and taking some breaths and do that and let's see if we start to expose that overhead position. As we get into complex understanding of movement we look at start position effectiveness and finish position. So if I'm pressing overhead and I'm starting in a less effective position then it's really difficult for me to end in a great position. Right? That's why that bottomup kettle bell press forces us to be in a good shape as we press overhead. But if I don't have complete overhead position, my overhead position is here or I have to internally rotate a little bit, I'll achieve some overhead like shape, but that's not full position. So even if I'm pressing a barbell out here where I'm not anywhere near full overhead position, I would still check this full overhead position. And it could be that we just don't have as efficient access for whatever reason because you've had this amazing life and now this movement is highlighting something for us that we can become curious about >> cuz you should be able to >> I'm able to do pull-up assisted pull-ups doesn't hurt, doesn't flare up with the with that hanging. Uh I'm going to do more of it. I do hang and it feels good. I like >> No, if you're doing pull-ups, you're hanging already. You're there. You're >> I do I do pull-ups and I don't have that problem. So, it's definitely, >> you know, we can we can constrain it. You know, if I have you put your thumbs backwards, then the shoulder by necessity is going to be in a mechanically sort of more effective position where I'm going to have better features of stability. The the capsules wound up. The mechanic of pressing is a little bit better. And in this situation, I might even have you, you know, when anyone has pain with a problem, an area or movement, there's two things we can always do. We can always pause if I have a painful range or B, I slow down. So, we can slow this down a little bit and ask you to show me that you've got control signal that it's safe to the brain, etc. instead of sort of I'm overhead, right? And I didn't really touch some of those overhead shapes and really use it as a diagnostic. But in this situation, I'd be really curious. Again, let's look at your range of motion of that shoulder. I bet that there's some rhyming things that maybe I've got a little restricted because I didn't know and I'm doing all the things and now I'm getting this feedback that this position doesn't always feel good. Once in a while it's fine, but if it's happening all the time, we >> it's happening. Yeah. And become curious about it. >> How how would a person at home like let's, you know, I'm talking about my problem, but other people have their fill in the blank problems. >> If only there was an app that had all of these simple movement tests you could do at home. >> And that's what and that's the app that you you have. What's the name of that app again? It's called the mobility coach. >> The mobility coach. >> And the reason what we're trying to do is so let me I'll lay out for you real quick built to move. We've got really simple pedestrian assessments and some range of motion. These are some things. So entree in the app has really sophisticated self assessments but easy to do, easy to understand. We're going to look at fundamental ranges and you should see it in the cont. You'd be like, "Oh, I understand why we're doing that." May maybe you don't understand why we're looking at rotation in some of these things but there are components there and that all belongs in the hand of the user. Then we have a whole host of professional courses where we're much more sophisticated about complete incomplete hands-on assessing. But we don't need that for the average person. We should be able to know what our movement minimums are and then start to identify opportunities to work and restore those positions because that is really part of the conversation that gets lost in search or in in service of performance and wattage. We're not looking at did you express normative ranges even though the classic strength and conditioning really does ask us to have full range of motion. That's why strengthening classic strength and conditioning is all the same. Front squat, back squat, lunge, pull-up, bench. Those are all tests. I've been on every continent except Antarctica. Everyone knows what a push-up is. That is our universal expression of shoulder extension in a short lever position, right? I don't need a bunch of tests. I need to see how well and how much range you have in a push-up. >> I love push-ups. >> My my favorite workout to do anytime I'm traveling is the Cindy workout. >> Oh, isn't that so simple? I've done Cindy more than any other workout in the history of the world. Everyone, Cindy is the best workout. >> We should explain what that is to people. >> So, it's five pull-ups, 10 push-ups, 15 air squats. You can do it on the minute, you can do it as many rounds as you want. You have 10 minutes, you have 15 minutes. That body weight volume is excellent. Put a bike on it for 2 minutes, do a round, put a bike on it, do three rounds. We call it Cindy-ish. And pretty soon you can rinse, wash, repeat that combo forever. My favorite Cindy-ish workout for me is like if I'm in my, you know, like I said, I'm traveling, I'm in a hotel, is I'll I'll do the bodyweight squats and then I do push-ups and then V-ups and there there it is. >> And what you've just described is in 20 minutes. >> 20 minutes, right? >> You've got tons of exposure, no equipment. Wonderful. Wonderful. this uh we have so many different things that you mentioned to get into in terms of range of motion, you know, the the blood flow, especially with the tendons, you know, not a lot of blood flow, the tendons, but maybe we can start there with this r range of motion and warming up, you know, cuz I mean, so I work with my coach and thankfully, you know, she knows what she's doing. And so if I hadn't had her, I wouldn't really have known the difference between warming up and stretching. M >> um I certainly wouldn't really understand what the goal of warming up is and and you're going to educate me even more, but just from learning through experiencing what she tells me to do, I've realized that it's like, okay, first thing, you know, I'm just kind of like I do 2 minutes of just getting my heart rate up first thing. So, it's either rowing or jumping rope and then [snorts] after that 2 minutes, then we kind of get into more range of motion. You know, if I'm doing arms, I'll do passroughs with a pole. Um or we'll do um you know body weightight squats first if I'm going to be squatting that day and then we go barbell only squats and I eventually like you know gradually get to the weight that I'm eventually going to do but I'm warming up. But I wouldn't have known to do all that if I was just kind of working out on my own. >> That's crazy. H how did we fail Dr. Patrick, where you're like, "Hey, I'm not I'm about to go do this crazy thing and maybe I just spun on the bike for 10 minutes and I looked around." We just haven't really taught people, hey, here's what it looks like. And theoretically, we should have gotten that in high school when we were still engaged in sports, competitive sports, before be we all became wreck athletes. But what you see is that there's a real opportunity to help people feel better and prepare for the movement. And don't get me wrong, I think you should be able to sprint down the street, grab a baby out of a burning, you know, building and fight off a tiger like that. Probably not the best expression of your physiology in those moments, but we should we should be able to do those things cold, right? But when we start to look around, we start to see that most people aren't treating their warm-up as a chance to feel better. who am I today as I show up at this gym for this thing? Because your range of motion is a little bit of a moving target and it's like a credit score, one of our friends says. And so you're sort of touching base with how tired am I? How springy am I? What's going on? You're getting to know this carcass today, right? And that might mean, hey, I you know, I just you are flying all over the place. Suddenly you're a little bit stiff from that plane ride. You your squatting doesn't feel the same. So, we're trying to remind the brain of fundamental movement patterns. We're trying to get hot and sweaty. We're trying to wake up the nervous system. You are doing this jumping which is activating. You're getting hot and sweaty. You're shifting blood. There's a lot of things that can happen. But also, we see that this is a great opportunity to add in some movement. And wait for it, play, right? You can explore positions and shapes safely here. Tell your brain, if I end up in this shape later on, it's going to be safe. some of those path through passroughs there. We're starting to see rope flow kind of some of these physical culture ideas from people like Ido Portal, Fighting Monkey. We're bringing those things back into our warm-ups. And a simple way to ask this is if we treated your warm-up, your workout like it was a fight. You and I are going to fight. What does our warm-up look like? It does not look like I'm laying on the ground doing some foam rolling, right? like you're jumping rope and getting hot and prepping yourself and doing some hypoxic work and breathing and activating and integrating with the people you're like we're about to fight like that's a really nice sort of rubric for am I prepared or have I use this warm-up as an opportunity to be like I am not good today I'm just going to take it easy right I can use as a self assessment so that's what we try to do in the warm-up it sometimes it gets a little bit watered down as a coach I try to not do the same warm-up every single day I try to keep my athletes guessing. I want them to be entertained. I want them to uh be curious. And that's a really opportunity to put some of these things we see in the internet. Hey, that looks like fun. Let me try that as part of my warm-up. >> How much does doing, you know, a warm-up that's properly a warm-up play a role in helping with injury prevention? that [gasps] well I think from a simple idea that we have a chance to prime and remind our brains that movement is a skill right I I sometimes we have like we're like all movement is good right it it's all like the movement optimists are like it doesn't matter what you do and we're like well from a from injury which is not what we're trying to do we're never on this track of hey let's warm up so we don't get injured I think that's kind of a fool's errant and like it's not really inspiring. Don't get injured. Like I'm not injured. You know what's going to happen that I'm going to get injured? >> Instead, we think, hey, we can actually get more work done. We can feel better as we do it. We have less discomfort as we do it. And what we tend to see is we don't get as stiff afterwards. And so often times when we're trying to compress a lot of really dense work into a little time, we don't leave permission for us to really get tissues hyperprofused, like blood flow ready to go. If the first motion you do is push the sled and you put, you know, tear your Achilles, I'm like, well, that tissue wasn't as prepared maybe as it could have been. Maybe we could have mitigated some of these aches and tweaks. Maybe some of those insertions of those connective tissues weren't so, you know, fryable and dry. Just like the rotator cuff, for example, it just takes a minute. It's like hardpacked earth. And if you just take a, you know, exercise which like a hoe is blasting on hard packed earth, the water doesn't really soak in. takes a second for those tissues to you know to really become well perused and then you might have better range of motion and more important you'll have better power better work tolerance and then afterwards there's all these models exist already like the Soviets used to say if you leave the gym stiff you're going to be stiff I think if we if we take a look at some of our movement traditions people have been training and thinking seriously about this for a long time but we have sucked the joy out of the and the potential out of potentiation out of warm-up for sure but to your point when we're dripped in sweat. So, I coach at at Cal Berkeley and I travel with the women's water polo team. So, I'm their performance director and uh our our joke is like I'm the health coach, right? And sometimes that means I hand out snacks and sometimes that means I'm doing mobility work. I'm helping them manage pain, but I also run the warm-ups and sort of amongst other things. And we'll be battling another team. that team has their coats on and they're real stiff and not really trained to each other. Our women are down to their sports bras. We are battling and fighting, ready to go. And I'm like, which team do you want to be part of here? Right? And so we can really use that warm-up time to connect, play, integrate, have fun, and perform better because those tissues are better ready to go. I sometimes do a really short I don't have if I don't have a lot of time I'm traveling or I have to get to a podcast or something and I know I need to get like my blood flow up for at least 10 minutes like it's important for me cognition you know it doesn't matter what I do >> changing your state I'm transitioning into now going from brain to >> you know meat >> right um but sometimes I'll get on my Pelaton and I'll do two backtoback Tobatas so it's like a it's 10-minute 2 to1 ratio, 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off, 30 second recovery in between, >> but I don't warm up before I get on that bike. And I do that and and what I'm hearing from you is like even that type of, you know, hyper profusion as you called it, like where you're getting all of a sudden you're going from nothing to boom, you're getting that blood flow up, man. You're going hard. Um, needs a warm-up. Well, what we could start to say is, are we trying to meet all of your movement needs only by the time we get there? So, what we can start to say is, well, what does the rest of the day look like? Because if you're just going from sitting to more sitting and we have a little like that's already great. You're you're getting your heart rate up, you're starting to breathe. We could we could put in breath holds there. We could do hypoxic work there. We could we could you know you just taking the resistance out and going fast could be a really great way of you know priming yourself. The I think the key here though is what if we had a little movement first thing in the morning. What if like we do a thing that we kind of give people three options. We're like, "Hey, as a place to start, I would like you to do the hip spin-up, the shoulder spin up, or a breath spin up before you leave the house." Because if the day gets away from you and you can't train or you can't exercise, we want to have said, "Well, what does a physical day look like for a person?" How do we get more movement in throughout the rest of the day instead of just saving it up? Cuz what I'd really like to do is recognize that you're a busy working human and that if we had a little bit of hip prep in the morning, we worked at a desk that gave us movement choice. Maybe we sat on the floor, maybe we sat at the computer, we walked around a little bit at lunch, then by the time I actually got to my workout, I'm not going from 0 to 60, I'm going from 40 to 60 because I've prepared my body a little bit more. Maybe that's a great way to sneak it in. And the rest of the thing is, hey, when we have the opportunity to be do a better thing, fine. Sometimes I'm at the airport and I grab a fruit, you know, bucket, you know, a $17, you know, cup of grapes and two horrible eggs. Like, that is really not great food, but it's going to do today and we'll get the rest of it tomorrow. We're not worried about it. The main thing is I love that you are thinking about this as a physical practice. And hey, there's nothing wrong with taking the first five sets under the bar and taking your time and just moving slowly and adding weight. Hey, you don't have sometimes when we have time and luxury to play and move and prep, let's do it. If not, let's just be a little bit more conscientious about it. >> Awesome. Um, what is this hip like if you're if you're drawing you talked about this hip mobility or hip prep like what what's what does that look like? >> Well, number one, we wanted something that you could do. Imagine like again homage to our the people who've thought about critically about some of these things. Uh yoga has sun salutation. And what I thought was what a great practice if everyone did sun salutation every single day before they left the house. They've touched some end ranges. They reminded their brain. They had to breathe. They had to rotate. They had to weightbear. They had to move their spines a little bit. Right? That's great. But that sun sitation sometimes comes entrapped in a little bit of too much asa, a little bit too much spirituality and sometimes our athletes are like really this doesn't feel athletic enough. So I was like what could we do to sort of simulate that? And that's where we I came up with the idea of the hip spin up which was fundamental positions of flexion and rotation of the hip. We touch some endrange tissues. We throw some isometrics in. We make your spine work with your hips. Just groundbased. Don't need any equipment. can be scaled and it gives you a touch of like, hey, what is am I at least at these full ranges of motion for a second today because I think what ends up happening oftentimes is that we can live in a world where we're not asked to actually do all the things our bodies can do and now we're having to be like, okay, here's your vitamin, here's your X and such to make up for the fact that we're not really doing the things we need to do with our bodies. What is a what does a simple hip mobility test look like to >> Well, the the question here is um you know what should the hip should what what should the hip be able to do, right? And and I say hip as in the chain, right? But that's the big primary engine. The the spine is the first engine, but then we have these big primary engines of the hips and shoulders. And what's interesting about that conversation is that if I ask people who are very sophisticated about their running training or their nutrition, I'm like, "What should the hip be able to do? What's normal? What's what's far from normal? What does every physician agree we should be able to do? They have no idea. What what's normal hip flexion? Bring your knee to your chest." Well, this was really where we recognized that one of the problems that we had or opportunities we had is to make these range of motion tests part of the training so that I could the stimulus for adaptation exercise was also the diagnostic tool, right? So I can understand what's going on. So easily we all should be able to hip squat hip crease below the knee, right? That's a really simple test. And if you're struggling to do that, tells me a little bit about your readiness today. And again, you could be stiff, you could have old injuries, you could have, you know, does, there's no judgment there. Um, if you stand on one leg, you should be able to pull your other knee up past 90°. And most people would struggle for that. Uh, we have a simple test in the last book called the sit and rise test, which everyone has heard of now. Just lower yourself to the ground, criss-cross applesauce, right, without falling, and then without putting your knee down or hand down, pop back up. And so what's nice about that is that that's not even a full range of motion test. It's not even uh doesn't require that much strength, but it's a good indicator that you may be missing some hip flexion. Being able to fold forward to shift your weight is really the the limiter there. So if we can begin to create some some fence post, some guidelines for people to understand what's more normative or not around their own range of motion, then you can keep an eye on it. and the the sit and rise test. Isn't there some data on that with associations and longevity? >> Yeah, basically imagine that all of these things are proxies, right? As you've talked about, like I don't really care what your grip strength is. I care what you do with that grip strength, but if you're doing a lot of fun stuff with your grip strength, your grip strength is going to be good. So, it's a proxy for all these other things, right? And that test tells us a lot about your movement choice, your ability to solve movement problems, your ability to, you know, modulate your your balance. And so it may not be that that's the end all beall. Put a hand down, you could probably still be a hundred. I mean, we probably have some aunties in our lives who are over 90 who've never done the sit and rise test, never done keto, never went to a high-intensity exercise class, but there there's something about their lifestyle. We just got back from Japan. We're sleeping on the ground. Cultures that toilet on the ground, sleep on the ground, eat on the ground. Fall risk in the elderly drops to almost zero. Osteoarthritis in the hips and low back drops to almost zero. There's something about maybe we should touch these shapes once in a while. And then that makes it so it's on the map of the brain. We're touching and loading those tissues. They the brain doesn't start to pair down some of that movement as as irrelevant. So really the question is what should I do every day? And then now we can ask the next following questions. What are essential movements in strength and conditioning which is really just a formal movement practice under load? >> Yes. And that that that is my next question because I recently did the sit and rise test with someone who is in good shape. They work out and I had no problem getting up and doing the sit and rise test and they did. >> That's right. >> So how can someone be healthy out? I mean, you know, when I mean workout, I say I mean like strength and conditioning both, right? They're they're doing running, they're doing squats, deadlifts, and and have trouble with a sit and rise test. >> It's a great question. [snorts] What it hints at and what I'd love is get to a place where you and I have our own ways we like to train, right? You just you have things you're like you're a big power cleaner and deadlifter and rower. You're you know, do these hard things. >> Power cleaning is the hardest thing. I hate doing it but I do it. >> It's almost like it's an Olympic sport and you'll spend the rest of your life working at it. Right. >> Okay. So >> that aside, [laughter] >> so that aside, >> what we can say is you have your way of training our way things that we love the way we like to move our bodies in the sports we play. I should be able to take any third party system and thrive there. So if you go to yoga and you get your butt kicked, like yoga is not crazy. Yoga is just saying, "Hey, here's what humans should be able to do with no load, but we're going to hold these isometrics and you have to be able to breathe for a long time." Go to Pilates class. If you're really elite, you'll you'll spank Pilates. You might be sore afterwards because there are some shapes you don't spend a lot of time in that are normative towards Pilates, right? That are signature Pilates. But ideally, we should take whatever you're doing and run it through a blood panel. How do you like to eat? Cool. I believe you. Let's go ahead and check over here. And so that third party validation is a nice test. And what we often see is we've compared uh sort of the capacity of physiology and we've confused that with choice skill right coordination but I can generate thousands of watts over here but I'm not very coordinated or because I've generated thousands of watts over here it's cost me my rotation of my hip or my hip extension. And ultimately, you can do that for a while until you want to learn a new skill, until that tissue is somehow a little bit misused because it doesn't have its normal ranges of motion. And I think when we ask people to sort of engage in some baseline testing, then we can start to understand inputs and outputs. And so, if I have an elite cyclist, I'm working in the tour to France, we don't really spend a ton of time in hip extension training knee behind the butt like a lunge. We are in those shapes to make sure that we restore power, keep the hip doing what it needs to do. We don't necessarily have to train in those shapes as heavily as we might with an Olympic sprinter. So, but we need to look at where is this person able to put some of these isometrics or some mobility work or some soft tissue work to keep it, you know, the sort of the window open because what we're really trying to do for the typical person, again, we're all basically wreck athletes at some point is we're trying to say, let's maintain as much range as we can, right? Let's and [clears throat] by that we'll say, how do I maintain movement choice, movement options? How do I pick up the new skill? How do I have a body that's free and unencumbered? [snorts] >> I uh we covered this hip thing, but I'm the shoulders is another kind of obsession of mine because I do I do get some pain and there's a couple of questions I want to ask and one has to do with the obviously the the ways to assess shoulder mobility. But the other is like you know I do work at a desk a lot and we're going to get into desk ergonomics people because that's also an interest of mine as well as I know other people are interested. What can someone who is desk working a lot but also who lifts you know what what's I would say a common problem in those individuals in terms of like their shoulder mobility and what would be a good you know ROI in terms of like working your shoulder to reset it. >> Yeah. Uh let's take a look and we'll split the upper body from lower body because it's easy to go for a walk and we can decongest right. The lymphatics are built into our muscle system. The lymphatic system is sewage system of the body and they're it's bootstrapped into our muscles. And so if we go for a walk, that calf is acting like a second heart. It's pumping. We're dumping all those lymphatics through the groin through that muscle contraction. And it's easy to say, "Hey, let's decongest, right? I've just I I ran. I did something and now I'm just going to walk a little bit more in the day." It's one of the reasons, you know, if you fly on an airplane, you get cankles. It's lack of movement that's giving you those cankles, right? That's congestion of the tissues. Well, it's easy on the to but if I say, "Hey, I'm going to need you to get on this rower for an hour." You're going to be like, "Bro, I'm not doing that. Get on this assault bike for an hour. Decongest." What? Just it's impossible. And so sometimes it's hard to get enough exaggerated cross pattern motion and movement of the upper body to decongest it the way we're working. So what we can say then suddenly is, well, what tools do I have available to me? Well, number one, maybe a little bit of shoulder motion where I'm touching some fundamental shapes during the day. That'd be easy. And that's an easy place to start because it's, you know, for example, it's easy never to have to put your bra on in the back, right? That would be a test of internal rotation and some extension. That aptly scratch test, all the the, you know, hey, let's look at the if you do the FMS test, can you get your hand behind your back? But if you're not practicing and in those shapes ever, it's going to be tricky. And if you start loading the upper body significantly the way you are, the way the way we're kind of modern training is has sort of influenced us. Remember that the first thing the body does after training stimulus is it lays down more collagen. It makes the container stronger to withstand. Now when it starts to put the muscle down inside that the the fascial connective tissue containers are set up first the we have a bigger engine frame then we can make a bigger engine. So if you don't do anything you're going to become stiff and fibrodic like welcome to being you know big squats I mean are going to make your quads stiff if you don't if you don't keep your eye on it. All that running makes your can make your quads very stiff right. So suddenly we can ask around the shoulder, well let's make sure that we're doing something to keep an eye on this range of motion. And uh I could hint at you could do something like the shoulder spin up in the morning which is just touching some fundamental shapes with some arm swings. It's very simple. Um you could do something like David Wex rope flow which is super fun and very easy to touch a bunch of shapes. It's basically imagine like PNF patterns which were this kind of model of looking at how we load the shoulder in this rehab that came out these diagonals and rotation. And if you just spin a rope a whole bunch, you're going to touch a ton of rotation. You're going to be in some of fundamental shapes. It's really fast. It's easy. It's great prep. Or we could go, you know, a step further and say, "Okay, we we've trained all day long. Now, we're going to hook you up to this very sophisticated neuromuscular device that's going to decongest the tissues, but ultimately we want to remind you that the body is not fragile. It's designed to be loaded and adapt forever. So, let's just at the very least keep an eye on our range of motion. And I just came from the airport where I just got to see people put their arms over their head in the scanner and it's sort of a disaster, right? I mean, they're just banana back inchely rotate. Like, people just don't aren't very confident in putting their arms over their head anymore. But it's because their life doesn't ask them to do that. >> And how often I like like what how much time do you think someone should spend like myself who is desk sitting a lot and many of us are and I do work out you know but as you said I'm not doing that throughout the day. So like you know is there a couple minutes a day? >> Yeah. I think I think we saw if if you started this conversation about and you could say hey I think my lower body is the big problem. Let's focus on that for a week. upper body is my shoulders are really that's the thing I want to feel better at. Well, what we could do is almost say, well, what's let's look at a day, right? That's maybe the the keystone idea. And the morning, what what did you do in the morning? Did you just get up on the laptop right away? Could we go for a five-minute walk? Could we just get you engaged in a breath practice? I mean, just getting your rib cage moving through some breathing like something even looks like old school Wimhof style breathing or oxygen advantage. just getting your trunk moving and the the trunk wall a little bit more compliant, you're going to see your shoulder blades work better. And if your shoulder blades work better on your trunk, you're going to have better arm function. But if my trunk gets stiff because I sit in a C-shape and I don't really take any big breaths, then maybe I'm going to see some decreased function in the shoulder blade. So a couple minutes of the day in the morning, then I'm just going to not worry. I'm just going to move as much as I can during the day. That's my goal. Is the breath work like I is it equivalent like let's say I I I do get up and I go for that let's say short run you know two miles >> awesome >> is that doing something similar as the breath work or is there something independent because you mentioned the trunk >> yes >> and >> well I I think what we haven't helped people understand is that ventilation efficiency is very much a skill and you you know doing some formal thoughtful full range of motion of the trunk, full exhale range of motion of the trunk. I would say that most people are probably occupying some mid-range in their breathing. They're very shallow breathing. They're stiff. They're just breathing in their available container. If we look at the work Jill Miller wrote a great book called Body by Breath, simple ways to mobilize the trunk. So, we actually have better diaphragm function, better pelvic floor function. uh Brian McKenzie really brought some of the work back into hey let's take a look at this interesting physiology that we could harness right IAR here we were back at yoga nerves are king of the breath the breath is king of the brain so one of the easiest ways we can change state is by being a little bit more conscientious about our breathing but I think you're hinting at like when and where do I do all this so one of the things that we love is if you're on the bike and that's part of your warm-up let's just drop in a couple simple breath routine practices that make you have to touch that range of motion Um, >> can you give me an example? >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, this is from the French free divers I was working with when they're coaches. During a simple warm-up, they take a 10-second inhale, which is going to kill the average person. Just that's a long inhale, and then they do a max breath hold on that inhale for as long as they can, and then recover nose only breathing, [snorts] which is going to constrain the breathing. You're going to have to really be functional on that diaphragm. You're going to have to work harder. You're going to prep that. And you repeat that every minute. 10-second inhale, max breath hold, repeat every minute. Uh, another simple example is just, hey, every minute I just want you to exhale as long as you can, go ham as long as you can on an exhale. And when you need to breathe, go ahead and, you know, just keep it moving instead of stopping. So, we can almost use some of this hypoxic work where we just put you into a little dynamic apnea where we ask you to work, do a little breath hold of some kind. Suddenly, you're going to have to touch that range of motion. You're going to have to get caught up. You're breathing all the way out. You're being a little bit more intentional. And then we've already set up your brain to be a little bit more CO2 tolerant. And we've done a couple other things. So, the first time that that lactate starts spiking, CO2 starts to climb, your brain is like, it's fine. We've already done this a bunch. So, it's like repairing the nervous system. >> Oh, I love that. Or reclaiming that because I'm trash from this tra trip or going drink with my friends or the big work volume last week or, you know, allows me to reset a little bit. [clears throat] What I think we're really seeing some of the innovation is how do we stack these behaviors so I'm not giving you another listicle of things you have to do? And that's what we want to do. How do I integrate this into Oh, you're already on the bike. Great. Let's do some breath work on the bike. What if you become a little dizzy when you're doing this breath work? Is that a sign of anything or is that normal? >> I think if you are holding [snorts] your breath to the place you're passing out, maybe you know take that back a notch. Yeah. Right. >> But um if you get a little uncomfortable, that's cool. And if you get a little luminous, just take a second like you know I think that's the the word that the yogis would do is luminous. Right. Your face is tingling. You're like what's going on? But really, you're just changing probably what's happening with pH or you know, some aspect of that breathing system is being modulated and you're feeling a little tingly. Totally okay. Unfortunately, those things go away. All the getting high on your own supply that you get from, you know, it all just becomes normalized. Um, so I would say, you know, one of the reasons we start with breath, anytime someone has neck pain, anyone times had midback pain or low back pain, we teach the breath mechanic first because it's just such a powerful way of desensitizing a painful spine or irritated spine. We normalize a lot of motion and around the spine. the the book that everyone loves to re reference is called um the spinal engine by gravitki and it's a really like it's a hard book to read everyone it's like gnarly biomechanics of salamanders side bending and um but really hints at that this is a really great whip that the the spine is a powerful engine and initiator of movement and that's actually how we define functional movement in the first place works of a wave of contraction from trunk to periphery from core to sleeve from axle skeleton. It's a peripheral skeleton. And it's one of the reasons we take a moment to always organize the trunk into a little bit better position if we can because it allows us to have better function. Right? So if I'm slouching at my computer, hard to take a big breath there. Hard to turn my neck there. If I'm driving in my car or I'm on my bike and I'm like, is there a position here where I could take a bigger breath? Well, suddenly we might not say that that's a good position or bad position. and we're just like, hey, that position doesn't give me access to as much physiology, as much power, as much volume, as much rotation, as much range of motion. So, we we might make decisions about how we organize the body to maintain the integrity of the breathing movement system. [clears throat] And that's a good indicator of when we start to look at the breath and our ability to take a diaphragm breath, breathe laterally in the ribs, actually get some motion in the in the upper back and trunk. We suddenly see that we can start to flip on lights in the room that was once dark. And lo and behold, we also got the brain and the mind okay with high CO2s. So, for example, with uh with Berkeley, we try to have seven hypoxic events before we compete. So, I want my I want the women I work with to die seven times in a controlled death, right? Like, we're going to jump rope and hold our breath and then put a little bit of that hypoxic load on and then later on we're in the pool or doing something of consequence, it's a lot easier. Is the response to the hypox the slight hypoxic event kind of like an adaptation where you're you're kind of depriving the tissue of a little bit of oxygen and therefore it's like oh I got to like make things move faster and better so that that doesn't happen again. It may there [clears throat] it could it's more likely because it would probably there's probably some systemic like blood flow restriction like thing that happens right like if you can truly desaturate >> but for the typical person who says hey I want to run a 5k for example or I'm doing a half marathon or something like that >> um you know they tend to over breathe so they tend as soon as it gets hard mouth breathing opens it's very shallow and turns out they really can't access all the oxygen on the hemoglobin and this is sorry that everyone this is a primer on on you know physiology but it's the it's the CO2 high levels of CO2 that allow you to strip the oxygen off the hemoglobin and again let me point ato oxygen advantage Brian all the people who've been talking about this forever all the yogis but if we can get the brain stem to handle high circulating CO2s by o practicing exposing that brain stem to these climbing CO2 levels then we're able to tolerate higher workloads, strip more oxygen off and not quickly scrub breathe off that and now we can actually get more work done because it's the CO2 that's triggering the breathing response, right? And we don't sort of realize that that's very trainable and that we can suddenly really get a lot more work done and feel better and less stressed on our bodies if we can handle those high CO2s, but that's uncomfortable. So, so these uh seven sort of slightly hypoxic events really are just the breath work that you're doing before your competition >> 100%. And then instead of saying, "Hey, let's lay down." We might do that. You and I put our hands on each other's shoulders. We take a breath in or a breath out and then you and I wrestle a little bit. And so suddenly now I'm thinking whoever breathes first loses. We're we're battling a little bit and doing something dynamic. And then we're both gonna have this moment of fugue, right? And that's what we're trying to do is is make it so that when that happens, when that first interval hits, you're much more capable. >> I wonder I used to be a surfer. I no longer am able to call myself that. I mean, I still know how to surf. >> Always a surfer. >> Um, but you know, even back in the days when I used to actually go surfing like every day, like I was still terrified every time I'd paddle up, particularly in like, you know, with the big swell. >> Valid. And I'm wondering if And now it's even worse. Like I if I I go out like a couple times a year and it's like it's like oh my gosh it's just even though I'm so fit. I mean I'm not so fit. I just I'm fit. Yeah. You know but it's still like paddling is hard and holding my breath and like you know getting bombarded by the waves. I'm wondering if doing some kind of breath work before going out and paddling out cuz the fear also gets me right where it's like I know it's coming. I know I'm holding my breath for a long period of time and it's scary and I don't like it. So I'm wondering if that would prepare me for >> 100%. And let me introduce you to the work of Lar Hamilton [laughter] and Gabby Ree who are really the first people who for me put this into the language and context of performance that they be for whatever reason Leer got on to Wimhof and recognized that if he trained for these to be able to handle this very dynamic work on a breathold that he could get more work done, get held down longer, pop back up, recover faster, and he saw he saw it as a competitive advantage. And then those two cleverly just were like, "Boy, we can repurpose this into a lot of aspects of our life." And in your experience, you what you're actually describing is something that's very common these days where I have this very fit human who now goes and does a sport that they don't do a lot often or a sport they used to do, but now they're so fit and it's easy to overdo it. It's easy not to have that exposure and it's easy to suddenly maybe recognize that like, hey, there's some aspect of my training that's not preparing me for this sport. And ideally, I think one of the things that's happened that's interesting is that people are exercising because it's about health, right? I'm I got it's my bone density and it's my V2 max and Right. Well, you you're also ath you're athletic and you're do an athlete and you do you do sports, but we forgot that we reason we used to train was to get better for something. And I think I really want to recoup that. What are you training for for people because ideally you can't you still need to go do your sport. We wish we could just be fit and then go do sports. And that's certainly a recipe for overuse because you can be like I surf for four hours today my first time back. You're like why did my shoulder hurt so bad? Well, you haven't loaded those tissues. You haven't said it's safe to your brain. So you hint at something really important which is that the brain is really a tool that's designed for safety. It's and survival. It's not designed for optimization. And so when we take this lesson uh that your brain is really trying to protect you and is like what's a threat not a threat. There's a reason you're like I'm a little concerned about being held down and like because you probably did that once or twice and your brain's like we're not doing that again and I see what you're doing. You're dragging us back out. So, how do we signal safety to the body? How do we signal safety to the brain? Well, that'd be one way, but suddenly you start to expand that. Sleep is safety, nutrition is safety, having access to my range of motion is safety, right? Things that don't hurt is safe. We can really start to put in a lot of ideas around how do we help the brain optimize for performance through feeling safe. And that, you know, having some hypoxic events beforehand can be really easy way. And you can even do this walking with your dog. I mean, I don't know if you're a psycho like me, but I might walk my dog and be like, if I breathe before that sign, everyone in my family is going to be wiped out by meteor. And I play these games where I'm like, I have to just hold my breath to a certain place. And when you get into the weeds on the some of the Gracies, always were working on breath holds, always interested in this hypoxic work because ultimately, as you know, in sports and doing activities, it's this breathing piece that's the limiting factor. so often. [snorts] >> I'm sorry to take it here, Kelly, but like I'm thinking about my heavy lifts now. Like how I've never really, you know, done I I I just breathe how I'm supposed I just breathe how I breathe when I'm lifting. >> Breathe early, brea often. Sounds good. >> Breathe early, breathe often. >> No, I mean, that's what we do. Like, I'm just going to bring my skills in and not recognize that, wow, this breath could be a real opportunity to get better and to learn other skills. You're absolutely right that there's there's opportunity here. So, how should I be breathing when I am, you know, I'm I'm doing a heavy squat, front squat, and you know, I got to come back up and like there's, you know, I'm grunt like grunting, like all of that. Like, I'm kind of just, you know, this is all new for me. I've been lifting for about that, I would say the last year and a half, maybe two years now. Um, but, you know, relatively new. So, fun. But also, I'm realizing like you start to then realize, oh, I can optimize here and I can optimize here and um, you know, Maybe even just use a different different language that instead of optimized were like, "Wow, I can become more skilled. Wow, I think I deadlifted for like 20 years before I actually deadlifted for the first time." I was like, "Oh, that's what she meant a long time ago." Oh, I think I understand. And sometimes I work out. I'm like, "I I might do uh something we we we love something called an ETO, which is every 30 seconds you have to do a lift. It's an easy way for adults for me to rate limit my ego, protect myself, put a little cardiorespiratory demand or metabolic demand on my working and but sometimes I've done 20 lifts, 20 singles before I'm like, "Oh, okay. Now I'm connected again. Now it's starting to go." So putting that skill in there is very much the game. And it's okay for us to be skill limited, not be limited by how strong your hips are. like like how nice that we have to we look at all the things and I'm like well looks like the limitation for you is that you're just not very good at this. That's that's really fun. >> But in that moment I I'll tell a story about um one of our two-time Olympians and heavyweights. His name is Wes Kit and he's an incredible athlete and an Olympian in Olympic lifting and heavyweights which are the strongest humans on the planet, right? His coach Dave Spitz, who's a is a genius, local at Cal Strength, was like, "Hey, um, can you meet with Wes?" He was just at the Panm Games, received a heavy clean over 400 and passed out right on stage, pressurizing for the next jerk, right? Putting cleaning is getting up to your shoulders, jerking his put over your head. And I was like, well, that doesn't sound like a good way to win, right? And so Wes came in and what we worked on was him pressurizing under those loads. Could he sequence and take a second and do a little bit more diligence about getting more air in creating this high intraabdominal pressure? And when we started working on that with him, same drill, same skills, but just and then also being a little conscientious, he never missed a jerk again like set the American record, qualified for the Olympics. So we can at the highest level at low level, low speed walking around, you know, the breathing, you can have one lung and still climb Everest. like we're so efficient. But on the other hand, when we start to look at, hey, we're going to do these five reps on this squat. I need you to get back to that breath. Your first breath is great. You get back to the top. Can we pressurize again? Can we pressurize again? And suddenly that becomes a skill. Can I breathe while I'm under this load? And if that doesn't sound like something you can relate to, go ahead and do a plank because everyone on this call or listening has probably done a plank. And watch what happens when you plank. you stop breathing or you breathe very shallowly. So, show me you can maintain this reference volume, taking these huge breaths in and out while you're doing some of these mundane skills, you're back at yoga again. >> So, that so that is that a good uh you know thing to practice would be like doing the plank and really just trying to like breathe and pressurize as you call it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And what you can certainly see is um wow as soon as it gets a little bit hard the first thing that goes out is the window. So when I work with uh coaches and teams or even a group of people will do like you do a little demo. Hey, let's do a squat or do something and the first thing people do is hold their breath. Why? Because they've created a little stable trunk. Requires less skill, less movement control. And they can simplify the system. So if I just hold my breath, then I can do a skill for a while. And what we actually many of us are doing is going from breathold to breathold to breathold to breathold when we work. And you're not actually limited by your strength. You're limited by your ability to manage oxygen use because you're not breathing. You're going from breathold to breath hold. And you'll see it and actually watch your kids, watch people like they literally are existing in a world where they're going from breathold to breathold. And often times we're like, "Oh, that's a curious strategy given that we're aerobic animals, >> right? So just take some time, focus on your breath while you're doing the static hold. I like that." And train your train your Yeah. >> And look, if and we can we establish it this way. If we we lay you down on the ground and I have you take the biggest breath in through your belly, through your ribs, through your chest, through your upper back, we could measure that, right? But I call that the reference volume because there's no load on your spine. You don't have to do anything like you're out of gravity. We can just like what's the most air in we can get and we can practice that. Put your hands here, breathe here, right? We can measure that. Then in gravity, I basically want you to be at 90% of that. So now there are all these competing demands on that. But if I suddenly have an idea of how much air I should be able to move in and out and then I drop down into a plank and I'm at 30% taking these really shallow breaths, you're like, "What what are you doing?" You know, cuz now why does your swimming suck? Why does Right. You can start to see that you're making you're losing capacity. And again, the reason we're interested in this is that we're interested in training these available capacities in the mundane things that we're already doing. And so with just a few twists to the pretzel, we can really juzj up and get even more bang for the buck. >> I'm excited. I'm going to We do I do planks often, you know, mostly at the end of my workout with uh my coach. And so I'm going to start practicing. Oh, it's so fun the the breath work. >> And you'll be shocked. You're like, "Wow, I really am breathing here." That's what is and what a great strategy. What a great strategy that our brain goes, this is complicated. This is potentially a little dangerous. We'll just simplify the system. We just have so many wonderful workarounds as the body to maintain capacity, maintain range of motion. Let's keep you in the game. Let's make it so you can still get your hand to your face and you can negotiate the world. Right. We have all of these workarounds. >> Um it's funny because you mentioned uh Gabby and Leard who I've are mutual friends. Um, and I've over the years like it something has come up every time, but I was supposed to go train with them and do their their um expertise, >> the pool work at the house. And uh I know it's going to happen one day. [laughter] >> It's a bucket list. Be more prepared for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. For for sure. >> Less embarrassed. And what I what's really great is I just I want you to appreciate that when Leair is there, Leair has 17 2000 levels of hell. Like there's some way to exceed your capacity, right? And that's what all good training is. We're trying to say how skilled are you as a mover and then we're going to add a little bit of construct or constraint to exceed your ability. And then we're going to try to keep you there. That's our hypothesis. We're going to test our hypothesis. Like that's all we do in exercise. And that might be adding load. That might be adding speed. Hey, what did you notice the first time you had to squat after rowing that it was a little bit harder to squat? Breathing real hard makes that skill harder. >> Oh yeah. When I have when my coach has it's like if I design the workouts that we do like the at the end of our our session. >> Um it's hard after you're after you're doing the rowing and then you have to go right into the squat or god forbid the cleaning and then doing a front squat. So, what you've just discovered there is that, hey, this movement is a skill, and there are a lot of ways to challenge that skill. I hand you a barbell. I hand you dumbbells. I flip you upside down. Now, we're competing. Now, there's a little psychology of, hey, I have to do this thing. I'm not sure I can. The the imposture voice, the fear voice. Now, you're breathing hard. Now, I have to do 20 reps. now. And you see that there are so many ways to manipulate that that ultimately when we start to view strength conditioning as coordination training with resistance, the resistance is a lot. But if we're just about we have a lot of choice here to make this hard, but if it's just about capacity, then let's just give you an exercise bike and do some dumb work. But it's not how do we become more skilled? And I guess I think one of the critiques and a valid critique of the last 20 years of strength conditioning, it's become very capacity based. We're so interested in capacity. But your V2 max means nothing unless you can handle and carry that with skill. >> You have this great quote, >> train for life, don't live to train, >> which I mean you kind of touched on it a little bit and we're we're talking about both ends of the spectrum here. I mean, obviously they're athletes that are training Yeah. >> for something, but there's a lot of people listening to this podcast that are not athletes. They're just interested in being healthy. >> Let's Okay, then if that athlete word is not the right word, >> okay, what is the right word? >> What is the right move? Because I think what we we want to say is that everyone needs to move their body. We're getting that message. But we want you to not I'm I've been saying this lately and it's very unpopular, but pull-ups are the worst sport there is. It's what a terrible sport pull-ups are. It's not interesting. No one cares. Like going from 20 to 25 pull-ups, great for you. Did it make you a better swimmer? That make you a better surfer? So ultimately in this quest for bigger front squats, like strength is never a weakness, you know, let's slave to like whoa whoa whoa. at what cost to actually have you have you left the house and done a sport? Have you tested your fitness? Have you spent your fitness credits? We run a program for adults over 40. Uh you know, it's like what does a strength conditioning movement lifestyle program look like for a busy person who's not interested in necessarily, you know, snatching one rep max at the Olympics again? And um one of the things that we see there is that people are still treating exercise like a commodity where I it's I have to do the makeup sets of math homework. If I miss a day I go back. I'm like hold up hold up hold up. >> That's not what good consistent strength conditioning practice looks like at any sport level. If you and I are competing we had a tournament this weekend. We come back in we reclaim right your positions. there's actual real life going on. Hey, we're working on, you know, what you'll see is that the strength initiing done by real sports teams changes a lot. Travel, competition, offseason, inseason, when do we turn up? What I can't I mean, one of my critiques of strength and conditioning right now is that like if you train kids the way we're training adults who don't do sports or train anyone who's like adults who don't do sports, you will crush them and they won't be able to do their sport. So, if you and I train together and then you're like, "Kelly, I wasn't able to surf today cuz I'm so beat up." I'm like, "Well, it doesn't matter. It does matter." So, ultimately, we're trying to get to a place where we can start to think about this training as having context instead of just being recursive hell where, oh, my V2 came down or my pull-ups came down. I lost some capac. Yes, you should lose capacity. You went on a vacation, right? You did a sport. You did you hiked the Grand Canyon. Like, of course, your pull-ups are going to change. come back in, get restarted again. Don't see it as this like perfect decorative room which doesn't match your lifestyle, your stress, your nutrition. We we kind of were like, look what the Soviets are doing. They could like you're going to be 82.3% of your one rep max on Tuesday, 3 weeks from now. Are you serious? Like, you don't even know where you are going to be in the world 3 weeks from now. How could we possibly plan for that? And I don't know if you're going to get sick or your kids going to get sick or you're going to have a deadline at work or so let's go ahead and just give ourselves permission. What's the goal today? To find relative loads and relative speeds and relative skill and then we'll we'll go on. >> Yeah. I think there's a lot of people that perhaps don't even play sports and I mean adults here. I'm I'm mostly talking about adults that are thinking about these statistics in their head like, "Oh, I'm 50 years old. I'm 60 years old. My muscle mass is declining. My strength is declining. you know, my my cardiorespiratory fitness is declining and they're >> scared about that aging process and they're trying to battle it and slow it. And so they're like, well, I need to, you know, put stress on any muscles to get the adaptations. I need to, you know, make sure I'm growing at the least, maintaining muscle mass, you know, building strength. I need to make sure I'm, you know, keeping my my my blood flow going and and, you know, making challenging my lungs and my heart, right? my cardiorespiratory system. And so [snorts] for them, they're like you're saying, it's the the the the gym is kind of like >> checklist. >> A checklist. Exactly. It's a checklist. And um and so yeah, how so how should those people think about training and what types of training should they I mean, how what's their mindset like and then translate that to to action. >> That is like here here we go. The million-d dollarar question, right? What does it look like? The most important thing I I think let's let's take another model. Um, humans in America don't eat fruits and vegetables. We like we like to pretend like we do, but we don't. We don't. No one gets enough fiber. Not 5% of us get enough fiber a day. Okay. So, so we have we [clears throat] have what we should do and what we are doing, right? The most important thing is to find a way that you like to move your body in community. That's the most important thing. How are you? Do you enjoy dance? let's go dance. So what we need to do first and say is if we just reduce exercise to like this physiologic you know input so that my heart rate you know my blood pressure I'm I'm exercising my that's a side effect I want you to exercise so that you can have better communication with your partners a more fun household that you're in a community like that's what we are supposed to do then we can take a look at that and say okay we have a we have a physical practice movement practice game play which is really important. Then we can say what's the minimum dose over here of loading of cardiorespiratory demand and theoretically you can do that in an enjoyable way too. You know you have mentioned CrossFit and for you know we discovered CrossFit in 2004. We opened a CrossFit gym in 2005. Um the model of CrossFit and especially modern sophisticated CrossFit programming is that there are a lot of needs being met simultaneously. You're going to get strong. You're going to become skilled. You're going to have to do this under high aerobic demand and metabolic demand. And simultaneously, it's pretty fun. You know, my wife has would describe herself as having exercise ADD. Like she doesn't want to do the same thing every single day. Like I could eat the same breakfast for the now to the end of time. She's like, "Nope, that's not for me." So what we want to do is again go in and say well what what are the things that you need to do and what now we can start to ask what do you have access to what's you know h how you know do you have do you have a wait where are you going to do that how often are you going to do that and we really end up getting in the weeds very quickly and more importantly into the right conversation and you know they sell kettle bells at Target now you know and if you just had a kettle bell at home and did some swings things, you know, in your kitchen for 10 or 15 minutes, plus went to dance class, plus threw a frisbee. We're going to start to approximate some pretty good well- balanced fitness. And then we can take that the things that you like to do and the minimums of these things like we love people hang from a bar. If you can hang three minutes a day and work on that's such a great thing to do. >> Why? >> Good for your neck, good for your back, good for your shoulders, right? just do we just we tend to find that people who can hang have less shoulder pain, less neck pain. >> Okay, >> it's a fundamental position and what we're really doing when we're hanging >> three minutes. >> Three minutes in total. What we're really doing when we're hanging is an isometric and we're just telling our brain these are really important positions to be in and that hanging really popularized by Edoprol was the first person to be like let's aggregate hanging. We start to see that shoulders hurt less, back works better, neck functions more effectively because we're just spending time in these end ranges. You don't like to hang, let me introduce you to downward dog. Downward dog is another version of spending a lot of time with your arms over your head. And if you ever gone to yoga class, you spend like two and a half years in downward dog for a reason because it's a really important position. So now [snorts] theoretically, I can take all the things Dr. Patrick does, all the things that Dr. Kelly does. And then we can test them and say who's got the best and does it get me if my V2 max has improved a little bit or it's good enough. Isn't that what we want to do? Just discover what's good enough so that we again can be painfree, have the most movement choice, play, pick up skills, occupy our role. And then if we want to go to the Olympics, that's a slightly different conversation. But for the average person, we should be able to say, "Hey, we're our goal isn't to be so specialized that we're afraid to eat, you know, have a margarita, drink, eat an acai bowl, right?" Like we we want to have tolerance in the system and be amazing. You know, one of my personal, you know, bugaboos is I don't always want to talk about body composition. You know, the I really stayed away from nutrition conversations because it was always about losing body fat. I have to talk about it because I want to talk about your tissue health. I want to talk about all the things that are going to allow you to not get injured or tweaked. Simultaneously, one of my goals is to be less gross for my wife. You know, she is my wife is the CEO. She has these abs. She's this like superstar rad woman and I just I don't want her to leave me. So, I want to be less gross. >> I love uh Kelly how you added leisure time activity in that equation. You mentioned dancing or whatever it is you like to do. For me, it's tennis because I've had I've had um Dr. Ben Lavine. Do you know about have you heard Ben Levine? I mean he's a rock star in you know the exercise physiology world when it comes to cardiovascular health right and and his prescription for life from just you know decades of aggregating data you know looking at individuals from an age range from you know younger athletes middle-aged older really that is an important part of the equation in addition to the other you know the exercise volume and the types of exercise that people are doing it's got to at least an hour a week of leisure time activity in the equation. >> I've never heard a a minimum of leisure time activity, but yes. Yes. Yes. We do not play enough. >> You're right. And you're absolutely right. Especially I mean I mean kids play a lot. And we're going to get into kids too, but we're both parents and I'm very interested in that, but adults don't play enough. And even adults like that are interested in health and fitness and improving the way they age and feeling better, being more mobile, all of that. Even even those adults oftentimes don't have any sort of leisure leisure time activity. I mean and that could be even riding a bike with a group. I mean oh that's leisure time activity. Oh yeah 100%. You know tennis I guess pickle ball is making a comeback now. I don't know how you feel about that but you know that's >> pickle ball will save America. >> Yeah. I mean it's it's a it's a lot of older people are getting into it. My mom's like I'm going to start doing pickle ball. Um so I love that leisure time activities back in the equation because I feel like we lost that as an adult as adults. We we we somehow lost the fun of, you know, playing a sport. >> I was just in Hawaii this weekend. Uh we were speaking at the University of Hawaii and working with some different we did a keynote there and then I worked with the strength and conditioning staff, right? Just had a had a session with University of Hawaii athletics. Go Bose. And um on the the outside wall of the kinesis department is a sign that's really old from the 70s. that were replaced and it says leisure like leisure activity research or leisure activity research something like that and Jill and I were like look at that they were like someone was looking at like sports and playing sports as a way of getting fit and like quantifying that and we have a really good friend who uh Nicole Christensen CrossFit Roots she says hey my family doesn't nature for time so any like health benefits that we get from riding our bikes or or paddling or doing it like that's just free money because it's in service of our sport. So, let's go ahead and get fit for our sport. And so, if you're a runner, here was this radical idea. Train for running because running is your sport, right? And Pelatoning is a terrible sport. I mean, that's just the worst fun, right? And and yet, like we figured out, hey, I got to be fit. These are some really efficient ways to do it in my home, etc., etc. Someone told me this weekend who works uh at the University of Hawaii Law School that the treadmill was invented in prison because no one could think of a more demoralizing thing than doing a bunch of work that didn't do anything. >> I was like, "Wow, okay. Sign me up." >> Yeah. Uh Pelatons changed my life for the 10-minute blood flow when I am on the go. I am such a fan of the exercise bike. We can protect people's range of motion. It's what we call high physiology, low skill. Not many people die. Like your knee doesn't dislocate. Like you can get a lot of work done really fast on that thing. If we had the exercise bike in every household in America, we would see a lot of changes. You know, um I don't know if that scales or is very egalitarian or even democratizing. Oh, it's everyone needs a complex solution to a complex problem. >> Right. Exactly. Um well, let's talk a little bit about the healing because, you know, just I want to I it's something that I I'm personally interested in because I do, as I mentioned at the start of this podcast, do have pain. Um it's not dehabilitating pain and it usually goes away pretty shortly after whatever, you know, exercise I'm doing, but it's annoying. And I want to know, you know, like should I be doing things? You mentioned voodoo floss, you know, there's the lacrosse ball. So, so I it's like the tendon. I have these, you know, it's like it seems as though my my nagging pain I know a lot of people experience this, you know, is there is there you know what what's the the science behind this? Is it really just increasing the blood flow to these not very well, >> you know, vascularized tissues? >> Yeah, that that could be it. It could be that you tweaked yourself a long time. We have a thousand just so stories, right? It's really easy. I think they call it harking, right? Where you look, right? You look at a data set afterwards, you're like, "Oh, here's what I meant to do." >> So, what we can, if we're looking at a complex system and we're trying to derive essential information out of that complex complexity, it's important that we take a look at the environment the person lives in. And and that maybe is not the first conversation because that's annoying. Hey, my shoulder's killing me. I can't play my game. tell me about your stress like bro like that's not the place for like come on make this stop hurting then we can talk about my stress but we we we do try to create benchmarks and we call them vital signs for those people sleep nutrition because we do sometimes end up re give me an anecdote here we had a woman at our gym who had a bad ankle sprain kind of tear in one of her ligaments we had a lot of physios at our gym she healed back up we got her back she's fully returned to Okay. Couple months later, I walked back into the gym. She's wearing her boot again. And I was like, oh no, like you injured herself again. She's like, I don't know what happened. I just just woke up and it started hurting. And what I said to her was, "Tell me more." And I was like, "What's going on? Like, this is not that's not how the brain works. It's not how your body works. Like, I've seen you move after this thing." She's like, "Well, my dog just died." And that death was so significant for her that her brain was basically took stock of what was going with her body. Was like, "Must be the ankle again." So just lowering that that sensit or raising that sensitivity by that stressful event was enough for her to trigger her brain thinking that that body was unsafe. So as we're working through this and trying to gather information about a complex system and remember the brain is the most sophisticated structure in the known universe. We can start with saying well do you have range of motion here? That's an easy place to start because we we can play press and guess where I get you to scrape and we mobilize and we can do some isometrics but we could be much more targeted in our approach here and rarely is it like the tendon right we want to see that tendon in a movement system because that tendon often times is just putting up with your crap it's actually doing the job of like three things like for example um we have we have a simple test called the couch stretch have you ever done the couch stretch you put your knee in the corner >> but I've heard about Okay. Okay. So, it's basically just a real simple assessment of some hip extension that So, if you were kneeling facing away from the wall, you put your knee in the corner. So, your foot is going up the wall and then you bring your other leg up into a high kneeling position, right? So, you're kind it's kind of like a lunge, but your leg is really bent and going up the wall. So, it's a short lever lunge position. And what we're looking for there is can you get your back upright without banana backing, without just kind of arching. Can you take a breath there? And then can you squeeze your butt there? And what we often find is that people are so restricted in their quads, they can't even get into that test position because they're so restricted for whatever reason, but also it inhibits their ability to squeeze their butt. So what we see is sometimes when people are missing hip extension because this is really a simple test of looking at what the tissues should be able to do as we move towards extension getting that knee behind my butt like a lunge or run that butt gets inhibited because the quads are tight the pelvis tips over whatever reason the brain is basically like we can't fire that glute against this resistance. So we use that as a assessment for hey let's spend some time here isometrics we can get your butt practicing that squeezing. So your brain says oh in this position I can do a normal muscular drill get my butt squeezing when the quads are tight. But that's a good example of why a lot of times people have really strict stiff hamstrings all the time. They're always sitting in a bent position and then the hamstring is doing the work of the butt and the hamstring all the time instead of the butt doing its job and the hamstring doing its job together. So, it's an a good example of sometimes that hamstring pathology could be as a result of working in incomplete positions where a lot of my physiology is sort of what I call positionally inhibited. And the same thing could be true of your shoulder. >> So, what do we do? So, you me you mentioned spending some time in the isometric position to help. >> Yeah. And and for everyone that just means we're pausing in a position, right? And making your brain control that position when we stop. So if you're doing a squat and you stop, that's an isometric. >> And so shoulder hanging, I mean hanging from a bar, would that be considered? >> That might be one working on overhead position. There would be we could we also could take if you've ever laid like you could lay on your back, put a lacrosse ball or some kind of ball in your T-spine and put your arm over your head. And one of the ideas that I stole right out of my instruction at physio school is that we mobilize at the position of restriction whenever we can. And we want to give context to the tissues that we're mobilizing. So if I'm missing internal rotation, so if I put my arm out to my side. So here here's a quick primer for everyone. The shoulder really does four things. I know it seems like it does a lot more, but don't lose the narrative here. You put your arm over your head. Okay? Arm goes out in front. Arm goes out to the side. Arm goes behind. That's really it. >> In some version of that, I'm going from position to position. What gets confusing is that the arm can bend and be straight, right? And it can rotate. So suddenly I can get into some very complex positions, but this is just still arm out in front, right? A plank is training what? Arm out in front. And we we have some we call them archetypes, right? So a pushup, the start of a row, start of a bench press, those are all beginning shapes that are similar. And then we can ask, you know, how am I spending time in these shapes? Do I have any exposure to these shapes or do I even have access to this shape? So, if my arm is out and I should have a rotational window of about 160 degrees. So, it's easy to see, harder to see with the arm straight, easier to see when the elbow is bent. So, from 90, arm is parallel to the ground. I should be able to go straight up to 90. That's normal range. If my hand is here, I should be able to get my hand all the way down to my hip if I was laying on the ground without my shoulder coming forward. And that shoulder coming forward is how your body solves the problem if you can't access that position. And that shoulder coming forward suddenly asks that deltoid biceps to work really hard. The deltoids like working like a seat belt trying to squeeze you back. That's potentially the mechanism of injury for biceps tears, for laboral tears. Puts my rotator cuff at a huge disadvantage. And what we can say is it's not necessarily bad because you have pain. It's less effective if you're trying to access all the wonderful things that your shoulder should be able to do. So now when we give people a few quick tests, you can be like, "Oh, this must be my internal rotation." And often times when we just restore these fundamental shapes, pain mitigation, we get in the background, right? But more importantly, what can we measure? Power, wattage, poundage. Those are the things that we really keep our eyes on. Have you heard I mean I know you've heard of it but what what causes women who are permenopausal to get this frozen shoulder I as you were mentioning the the range back here like some women can't >> I'm so glad you brought that up. So one of the things that our industry physical therapy everyone all for did did dirty by women for a long time is we did not recognize what Vonda Wright Dr. Vanderai calls the muscularkeeletal syndrome of menopause and that when we suddenly see women in their 40s and 50s who will show up with some weird occult tendon thing got a weird hot tendon I want everyone to ask the fundamental question hm [clears throat] I wonder if this is related to my gonads right which is my ovaries and testes what is happening is there some fundamental change in my biology that has left me because you're doing everything's the nutrition's the same but all of a sudden I woke up and this new body absolutely we should be asking that question does this have a hormonal component yes and we want to we can also work on restoring your range of motion we could also get blood flow and res like we could move slower so that doesn't hurt while simultaneously maybe we we run that down >> so so essentially you have to fix the hormone problem >> I would say that for generations we didn't fix the hormone problem uh for as long as there been humans. But now what I would say is we are more aware that this should be a component of care for women who are permenopausal and menopausal when we're suddenly seeing a cult frozen shoulder. And by the way, frozen shoulder translates in Japanese and Chinese to 50-year-old shoulder. Isn't that weird? Yes, that's what it's called. 50-y old shoulder. >> I haven't gotten it yet, but I'm like I have friends that have it. I'm hearing about it and now I'm like scared. >> Well, what we can say is how do we manage range of motion? How do we optimize? What can we control? And oftentimes that's enough and then we may need to jump on that. But when there are changes in the tissues and there is no par here. We often have men who come out of being um exposed to a lot of head trauma uh in the military in professional sports. They've rattled their ant pituitary, right, through concussions. They don't really make testosterone. They don't really, you know, plus all the lifestyle things are going on. No growth hormone. Tissues start to fall apart. In two seconds, we're like, "Men, here's some testosterone. You're set, right? We measured it. You've you have all these concussion histories." Imagine if we applied the same thing to women. We're like, "Hey, the system isn't working." And now you're starting to expose yourself to these fundamental changes in your tissues. they're changing because of the lack of estrogen. So, seems like that would be another thing we could look into. >> Yeah. One um other thing I want to touch on on the sort of healing recovery spectrum is, you know, we're talking about blood flow profusion. Um the voodoo floss is like one one way to get to that. I I like to run on days that I'm not lifting and I find that if I'm really sore, if I did something, if I had if I've been traveling a week, it's crazy. I'll travel for a week and then I come back and I do squats and I'm like, I'm sore and I'm like, I've been doing these. I can't take a week off like really [laughter] >> what >> what? But I find that if I go for a run the next day, it is insanely important for my recovery. It really helps. >> That's right. That's right. So let I don't want to interrupt. Yeah. No, but first of all, your experience there is really important. >> I figured out that if I move after these sessions, I feel better and that works and I know how to do that. So someone should not come in and say that's wrong or let's change that. Bully for you because you're figuring it out that the goal is this constant motion. That's fantastic, >> right? And I mean there's probably a lot of things going on, but I feel like blood flow is one, right? you're getting all the goodies to your muscle to recover and your tendons and and so on. But the other way to do that would be something that I've definitely talked about a lot in this podcast and I know that you're a fan of which is deliberate heat exposure through sauna or hot tub where you're also increasing blood flow. I mean it's sort of mimicking moderate intensity cardiovascular exercise. So I wanted to get your thoughts on first of all using temperature both hot and then on the opposite end of that would be cold which causes vasoc constriction combining the two how how you think about you know using that for healing recovery and then we can talk about growth hormone too cuz I want to bring up something >> I love it as well >> uh we're huge fans of entertainment of your body Michael Easter talks about the comfort crisis just that exposure to those ends making you a little bit more psychologically resilient. How about that? There's probably a ton of really good science. Thank you for showing us all about the sauna exposure, heat exposure. Simultaneously, I would say that what if the sauna, the miracle of the sauna was just that you have to chill out and be in there with your partner and there's no phone and there's a community. I think it can work on lots of levels. We tend uh I think the easiest way of thinking and I'll borrow this from our friend Lar and Gabby um that heating up and cooling down are two of the most expensive things our bodies does. And if we can become a little bit more efficient at it, that's probably a good thing. Um getting cold and getting hot might be really great for your range of motion of your vascule. Just reminding your, you know, all those smooth vessels, this is what it means to get cold and this is what it means to get hot. And you're right. Maybe maybe the fundamental aspect of of sauna is that we just start moving and pumping and things start, you know, that's great. I'm into it. Now we can say, well, how often when should I can I make it too hot? You actually brought our temperature way down. Thank you very much. We listened and now we're at like 180, not 230. You know, I'm not wretching in the sun anymore, you know, because I'm overheated. Um, but I think if we're talking about performance, um, great research around sauna, we can sauna, sauna, sauna, but it's a stressor and we'll definitely smoke you. Um, we probably tend to use cold a little bit more judiciously because it can blunt adaptation to exercise, right? Which is not what we're trying to do. And yet simultaneously, I would just say, hey, if you're a middle-ag wreck guy, get cold when it works for you, right? Don't worry about it. If we're trying to win a gold medal, maybe we think about when we're dosing that exposure of cold so we don't blunt any adaptation. But if we're talking about jumping in some cold water for a minute, that's not the same thing as icing, right? [snorts] >> Yeah. I also love how you talked about your brain and getting doing the hard things too. We're training our brain, right? >> People freak out when they get cold. I'm like, what's wrong with you? It's just cold, you know? And uh you know, full disclosure, my wife and I are professional river guides and kayakers and paddlers. We've been cold our whole life, it feels like. So, we're like, "Oh, this is just like my 20s, you know, being freezing in a river." But I think um it's real fun to entertain ourselves a little bit on the side. And I think maybe we can look at some of those objects as like toemic objects that focus other health behaviors. Maybe that's the best nicest thing about them, >> right? Yeah. Well, I wanted to bring up Growth Homer because one, I want to get your input on what I'm going to say, but also because there's not a lot of research on this like independent research in one area and in, you know, in the other and you kind of have to connect the dots, right? Which isn't always great, but it's a start. And so, we know that sauna, deliberate heat exposure does increase growth hormone. So growth hormone does respond to a stressful type of you know stress right? So you can do that through exercise, you can do it through deliberate heat exposure, you can do it through, you know, intermittent fasting. All those things have been shown to increase growth hormone. And depending on the temperature and duration, you can get a more robust response, right? So like the longer you do the sauna, the more hot without going above, you know, 200° Fahrenheit, you're going to get a a more robust response with growth hormone. And you know, the effects of growth hormone, particularly on like tendons, making them stronger. I believe that's that's something that's you know known. So my my idea here is like is this is using the sauna also potentially you know helping your tendons because of that growth hormone pulse that you're you know getting from from doing exercise also does right elevates growth hormone as well but >> if we're managing uh someone's pain or after injury again I might even say hard for me to measure that growth hormone effect >> but what is really useful is that I can get people feel better. We get better blood flow without having to work hard on a tissue that may need to protect temporarily, right? It's easy to do that and sort of I don't have to, you know, we're lucky we have a sauna, but maybe you you have one at home and you don't have to drive. We can have lots of these little sort of sort of exposures more often. And ultimately, I think it would be real fun to be like, I got into the the sauna and look at my skin now. It's amazing, right? One time, but it's really the consistency of these exposures. I think we just it's easy to sort of lose that. Um, we love the sauna because we have a bunch of friends who are maniacs who work really hard. They're at the peak of their power. They're they're families and we find it to be the easiest e bra to yank to to slow them down. In the evening, if you get hot and cold a couple times, you're going to fall asleep because it's so exhausting. But what I really like is you start to say, "Hey, here's a practice that's pretty easy, low skill, and maybe I could really goose my tissue healing times by optimizing." Because now we start to say, "Well, are you getting enough protein? Are you getting enough sleep? How are we getting those that blood moving?" And if there's side effects from some of these things, that's really great. We'll take it. >> Right. And and the and the nice thing now is I think there's enough research showing that even getting in a hot tub, hot bath. You could do a hot bath. Most people do have a bathtub at home. You will have to get a little pool thermometer and make sure you're at 104° Fahrenheit. So you might have to constantly refill the the bath for 20 to stay for it to stay hot for 20 minutes. But it's also more accessible, I think, now where it's like, well, people might go, "Well, I don't have a sauna and maybe they don't have a gym membership and their gym doesn't have a sauna." So, it's nice to know that they can even use their bathtub at home. >> Yes. I love that. And the way you're thinking about this is, okay, here's what we think best practice looks like in an elite institution. How do I transmute that to my little home? You know, getting hot really once in a while is probably really good for you. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Let's kind of translate to the opposite of exercising and moving, which is what we're doing now and sitting and what most of us are spending, I would say, the majority of our day% >> doing. >> I have to admit I'm selfishly interested in some of the stuff that you talked about in your your bestselling book, Supple Leopard. um desk ergonomics and and and kind of optimizing that because I, as I mentioned to you off camera, embarrassingly have a standing desk. I mean, I toggle it can toggle it up and down >> and yet I'm sitting the whole time that I'm working at that desk. I used it as a standing desk like 10 years ago, got [snorts] out of the practice. But before we get to the standing desk, I do want to just mention um you know, there's a lot of people in my in my life that are affected by sitting at a desk that I care about. And so I want this information to get to them. So where do we start? >> Let's define the problem, right? It's not sitting is bad, standing is good, right? We're designed to be in motion throughout the rest of the day, for the whole day. I think that's the way you should look at it. And there are absolutely times where it's appropriate to simplify. You have trained your body through high school and college and university and grad school to be able to sit and focus and that is not a problem. What's problem is these marathon bouts. So Harvard defines sedentary lifestyle as sitting more than six hours a day in aggregate. So that's TV, dinner, commuting, right? all the, you know, we're we're having to sit like this is our organis, you know, and again, we should have a body that's tolerant enough to handle these sitting things without my back hurting, without my hips getting stiff. But what we can start to ask is, okay, are is there are there opportunities where we could break up that sitting into optional, non-optional sitting? Because remember, the goal is just to move more, right? So, one of the things that's been useful is for us is, you know, that data that says walking 8,000 steps a day reduces all cause mortality by 51%. That's a pretty good bargain. 8,000 steps turns out to be clinically relevant because a lot of people can get that without having to do a big crazy walk and organize your whole life around walking meetings. You can kind of get that 8,000 steps. So, now we've got a a benchmark in there where we're instead of saying don't do this, we're saying hey, let's do this positive behavior. And that tends to change what's going on with all the sedentariness. You're like, "Oh, gotta walk." And you know, people have been down this road before. You know, the healthiest people in the building were the smokers cuz they had to get up and walk to the smoke place, right? And the further away you put that, the healthier they got. But what we can then start to say is, well, okay, I I have this desk thing. Are there any modifications to the environment that might allow me to not be as sedentary? So um we can look and go further and say well what is a sedentary behavior? It's like falling a half below one and a half metabolic equivalence. That's really what it is. So you remember the old treadmills like you can be like watts calories mets. A met is like an urg or a watt. It's just a measure of of work output. And one and a half metabolic equivalents is a sedentary behavior. So any activity where I have more than one and a half metabolic equivalents like like there's a landmark research that when the Wii came out remember that that that PlayStation the Wii >> and they were like we fit and it turns out playing Wii burned as many calories as standing right it wasn't the Wii it was the now we're not sitting and playing. So it if we were at a bar stool working that's still I can focus but now I have to do a lot more with my trunk and now I'm above one and a half metabolic equivalence. As soon as I got my legs a little bit involved in the conversation boom above one and a half and not that we need to proceverate on that but suddenly you could really do say that hm those drafters had something going on. So we say it's not a standing workstation until you have a place to put your foot to get you out of this extension. So, you need a like a a stack or something. And two, I want you to have a bar stool so that you can sit down, you can perch, you can lean, you can use it as a prop, you can put your foot on it, you can do half pigeon pose on it, right? And all of a sudden, you're like, "Wow, there's a lot of movement choice." I think the problem with just sitting is that we don't have a lot of movement choice here. And as soon as I go from a sitting traditionally sitting station to a more work friendly position, there's a lot more choice to fidget, move, take a break, step back, etc., etc. And that suddenly cracks the whole thing open. >> So having that range of movement is really key. And I also have a it's a bar stool chair. >> Yes. >> That um I don't use anymore, but I still have it. Yeah. >> And it's kind of like you sit on it like a saddle. It's a saddle chair. >> That perfect. You [snorts] can go you can go down the rabbit hole. You can go to IKEA and get the cheapest bar stool you want there. I just want your trunk to have to work. >> Yeah, you're right. Like as you're talking about this, I'm going >> if we if we as soon as I sit back, everything turns off. And there's a time for that, you know. Absolutely. Let's go ahead and kick back. Welcome to the couch. Welcome to laying down. But the rest of the time, we might even say, well, hm, if we have remote work or I need some work at home, maybe I sit on the ground. And so suddenly what you're doing and as we come back to a a a kind of a conversation we were having is what does a day's movement look like? And if I not able to exercise, could I still say I I moved enough during the day? I took care of myself. I was able to put all these things in. Well, I walked. I did some breath spin up. I I moved a little bit more when I was at work. I sat on the ground for 20 or 30 minutes in the evening at home while watching TV. And maybe I did a little mo mobility work. I pulled out a roller and said, "What's tight?" Look at that day. It's pretty agnostic of exercise, but we put a lot of inputs into the body. And sometimes that's what we're trying to do. And since most of us go to work, maybe there's an opportunity to get some more inputs. >> Why is sitting on the ground so important? You've tal you talked about this earlier, floor sitting in the >> in the Japanese culture and Asian cultures where they're, you know, squatting and >> um you've mentioned in your book even like floor sitting is important. Why why do you think it's so important? >> If we um look at the number one reason people end up in nursing homes, can't get up and down off the ground independently. So, let's practice that, >> right? So, now I have this practice where I have to get up and down off the ground. So, and it's built into something I'm doing. >> Most of us are watching TV. It's this the truth, right? Um, so what we found was that this was a simple behavior to put in where you could be in some of these end range positions that you just don't touch very often. Sit with your legs straight out in front of you. Oh, that's uncomfortable. Sit cross-legged. Oh, that's uncomfortable. Now kneel for a while. Oh, that's uncomfortable. Now side saddle, that's uncomfortable. So, we can touch a lot of postures and most important thing, as we already hinted at, is this exposure and consistency. But if you're on the ground for 20 or 30 minutes, the total time we're spending at some of these end ranges of your hip, your knees, a a typical person may not actually bend their knee all the way. They don't bend their knee all the way. They kind of sit in a chair, they walk around. But when's the last time your heel touched your butt and uh suddenly people like, I can't kneel. I'm like, well, when did that when did that happen? When did that change? >> I mean, kids are constantly in that position. >> Constantly. So I think what we found um Philip Beech wrote a wonderful book called Muscles and meridians. It's a functional embryology you nerds out there. It's the best book on embryology there is. But he has this hypothesis that it's one of the ways that the body used to tune itself that we spend time for example loading and kneeling on the hip reapproximates the hip into the socket. We get better hip function after that. Right? We have all these mechanics that function better when the hip has sort of better congruency, is better centrated, and all you need to do is sit on the ground or work on the ground or kneel on the ground. And that happens automatically. Most of the time when we're sitting, we're actually sitting on our femurss. We're not even sitting on the part of our pelvis that really handles that weight, the isial tuberosities, the sitbones. And so his idea was, well, we can get into some of these fundamental shapes and patterns and restorations doing something we always used to do. two and a half million years. I mean, I'm a little fatter, your femur's a little longer, but 10,000 years ago, we're the same person. What's changed? Well, we don't ever get up and down off the ground. So, suddenly, you were like, "Oh, that yoga, that matt Pilates, those wrestling games, those things turn out to be hugely important. When am I going to put that in? I'm a busy working person. I can do it in the evening sitting on the ground." And you will see your wattage change. >> Your wattage change. >> You'll see your power change. Like as we improve your range of motion and give you more movement choice, you will see anything that you care about improve. >> That's fascinating. Um okay, so got to got to watch family movie night on the floor. >> Yeah. >> Um but also older adults, I mean this is important because you know they're the last person that ever sits on the floor because it's uncomfortable and scary. >> Yeah. their back will start to hurt. And so >> so for older adults really, you know, sitting on the floor sounds like it's even more important because they're practicing that getting up and if they use their hands and that's fine. Totally fine. >> Turn on your stomach, use your couch, crawl up on the couch. >> Um you'll see that [clears throat] absolutely have this conversation with your parents. Your parents are like, "Oh, I haven't been on the ground since Vietnam or since Korea." You know, I mean like they don't get on the ground anymore. And it really is, you know, you'll hear people talk about playing with their grandkids and they're like, "Wow." You know, it's it's a lot to be able to get up and down off the ground. And what's interesting is your range of motion is the one part of your physiology that doesn't have to change as you age. Can you imagine if we just said, "Oh, yeah. Everyone gets >> because it doesn't have to. Why? Why? It's just one the one aspect of your of your movement. Probably going to lose some bone density. probably going to lose some muscle unless we're, >> you know, enhanced, right? Yeah. And we have all these But your range of motion doesn't have to to change >> as long as you're allowing as long as you're practicing it, right? I mean, like if you're not practicing it, then >> it's going to change. Yeah. But also remind everyone, muscles and tissues are like obedient dogs. They adapt and readapt. It's going to be slower than when you were 17, but you you can reclaim that position and shape. I did a I did a talk at the Olympic Club in San Francisco, which is kind of a fancy athletic club, and they were like, "We want you to talk about mobility and performance." And I was like, "Great. [clears throat and cough] There's going to be no chairs." And the demographic there was decidedly over 50. And there were so many people who wanted to have a very sophisticated conversation about performance and mobility, but couldn't sit on the ground. And at the end, we had was about an hour long. We doing lots of demos and things. Probably a third of the room was laying down because they couldn't sit. >> Were they just experiencing pain? >> Just uncomfortable. >> Uncomfortable. >> Didn't have the access to the range of motion. Didn't have to do anything that required that normative range of motion. >> You know, that's a problem. >> Yeah. >> And it's not always a problem. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm glad I don't have to kill my own chickens every day, but simultaneously, I may have to be a little bit more intentional about taking my body through its shapes. >> So, my mom, she has this condition. And it's it's um orthostatic tremor it's called. And so essentially she is fine if she walks, if she's moving, if she's sitting obviously, but if she stands still, her legs will start to shake pretty rapid. And so she can lose her balance really easy. And so she's gotten in the habit of like if you watch if you watch her like, you know, go do laundry in in the laundry room, she'll she'll sit down. She will sit down on the floor and do the laundry because she can't stand. And so even though she's, you know, 71 now, >> she is probably like one of the few older adults that I know >> that's sitting constantly because she has to because of this orthostatic tremor where she stands, you know, she >> stops getting output. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so um so I I'll tell her to keep working on her saying I'm happy. Yeah. And she's also the one that gets on the floor and plays with the grandkids because she's used to being on the floor. >> She's used to being on the floor. >> She's used to being on the floor. And again, I I think what's wonderful about that is we can say first of all, we can have, hey, fall prevention, mitigation. We could get better at getting up down off the ground. We can have better, but also gives us more movement choice. And that's really what gets lost in a lot of this conversation about is letting people have access to as much physiology so they can problem solve, move in the way they want, pick up new novel skills. You can think of movement, this is Juliet's analogy, is that um you know when we're young, our hallway is huge and you have a lot of choice and what you do and oh we're going to play basketball and then we're surfing and then we're it doesn't matter or yoga. Okay, you can do whatever. And as you get older, that hallway potentially gets narrower and narrower until we're, you know, on a walker up and down that hall. And what we're trying to do is say, hey, how do we keep that as m as wide as possible? And we have to talk about tissue health and some range of motion and you know, community and it's a it's a it's a conversation about being human, but ultimately we can have less suffering and still have a body that we can care and is built for adventure for as long as we try, >> right? And that's and I think that's you know that that context is really matters. I want you know what what's important to you and again I think you know we wrote supple leopard it came out in 2013 very much obsessed with winning more Olympics like let's go world champions like that's what you know and now I'm like okay I'm 52 maybe this is all about maintaining a as much playability as you can having a body that you can trust and doesn't hurt all the time and >> you know >> so that you can enjoy life with your family >> I love that idea and that's a really great definition of mobility can Do do you access and do you can you use that in things that you love to do? >> Well, it's your it's your quote. Train for life, right? Don't live to train. >> Well, you know, I I do like training. I love training. I'm obsessed with training. My wife and I love to train, but it's always in the context of other things, right? In service of and I think that that's >> that's really great. And look, no shade if you're the gym is your whole world. Awesome. >> Yeah. That's what makes you happy. That's your life, right? But let's also now say cuz this is the only thing I would I would caution is sometimes that highly decorative room where we're checking off all the things is not the same thing as how do we train a group of people to win an Olympic medal or you know >> etc etc. So, Kelly, I just also since we're talking about this sedentary time and I mean how sedentary time is defined and how that is an independent risk factor for higher all-c cause mortality and particularly there's an interesting study that correlates it to cancer increased cancer risk. I spend a lot of time sitting. A lot of us spend a a lot of time sitting. People that listen to this podcast know that I I've become over the years really interested in these exercise snacks or um actually, as you call them, movement snacks. And I just want to take a moment to give you and Juliet props because you guys have been talking about these for, you know, I don't even know how long now. It's been about a almost a decade maybe. You you've been, you know, it's been quite a few years. you guys were ahead of the curve talking about the importance of, you know, breaking up your day with moving, moving throughout the day and how it's not just about spending that one hour, you know, block of time at the gym and we're trying to make up, we're trying to comp overcompensate for our modern-day lifestyle, which is very >> that's absolutely true. But um you know these there's so much data that has come out even in the last five years and this is where my attention I really became drawn to this literature >> where >> it's undeniable that even people that are taking advantage of everyday life situations. So they're not even necessarily doing these structured exercise movements or these structured exercise snacks where they're getting up and doing body weight squats for 2 minutes or something like that. They're just going around and you know they live on the third floor. I'm sorry. They they could live on the third floor of the building or they could work on the third floor of a blend. Either way, they take the stairs to get to that third floor. They don't just take the stairs. They sprint up them. They're they're really going fast or they're taking time to play tag with their kids or their grandkids or, you know, sprint around with their new puppy, whatever it is. This is everyday situations. They're, you know, they live in the city and they're not taking Uber. You know, they're they're walking briskly to get to wherever they need to go, shopping or to work, right? And so people actually live like this, believe it or not. Yeah, it is it is something that people still do and and researchers have studied these people by putting accelerometers on their wrist and studying how you know fast that they are you know this intentional types of movements that they're getting throughout the day and even you know vigorous housework right to some degree people are moving around if they're if they're vacuuming really or mopping or something like that is I would say more moderate intensity but but they can they can get their heart rate up and they're moving right they're moving around and [snorts] really I think the the data is clear and repeatable where individuals that are doing, you know, these short bursts of exercise, if they're doing three minutes of it, three minute bouts of it three times a day, so a total of 9 minutes a day, that's a 50% lower cardiovascular related mortality, 50% lower cardiovascular related mortal, 40% lower all-c cause mortality, 40% lower cancer related mortality. And this is even in individuals that don't define themselves or identify as people that actually exercise because they're like, "No, I don't go to the gym. I don't exercise." But they do exercise. I just don't realize that they're these moments, right? So, you get props because you've been talking about this. You and Juliet both get props. You've been talking about this and really emphasizing the importance of movement throughout the day for a long time. So, thank you for that public health service. Um, and let's talk about how, you know, some people that perhaps they don't have a puppy or they're not a parent or they don't live on the third floor of a gym and unfortunately they use Instacart because they need to, you know, work more. whatever their situation is, they're they're desk bound, right? That's the the title of one of your bestselling books, right? So, how can individuals take, you know, time to get up and and get these movement snacks, these exercise snacks? Amen. Word. I love just the framing of this. And I suspect part of the problem and us not recognizing that sort of additive movement through the day is that it didn't look like a 1 hour paid for exercise class which we've trained people to do, right? Oh, it have to be an hour and that means it's a half hour drive to the gym. I have to do an hour then there's a half hour drive back and that's a 2-hour endeavor. I couldn't block. No, you know, like you said earlier, even some of the sprinting we got people habituated doing on Pelaton, that was really effective, like, you know, go out and just quickly, you know, is are you going to go to the Olympics? We're not having that conversation. We're saying, how can we put this input in? The research right now coming out of the Stanford lifestyle medicine group is that these movement breaks, movement snacks are even more powerful than we thought. They can actually do a a ton in terms of maintaining muscle mass or challenging. If we even get into the pain science world, like chronic pain, persistent pain, walking really fast in your neighborhood is one of the ways that your brain starts to pay attention, puts all those growth factors out there, rewires itself because your brain says, "Oh, we're walking fast. Something's going on. Better make this wiring a little bit more adaptable." So, you know what's great about this is that means, hey, I have 10 minutes. What could I do? Or I have 20 minutes right when I get home. That can be real work. And we actually apply that even to when we're starting to get our kids doing some strength and conditioning. We can even just like 20 minutes of, hey, we got some front squats in. We like, let's go through the Frisbee. I think if we start to view recreation as again um we we'll borrow Katie Bowman right who is just a G. She says, "Hey, if we took all your movement and made a language out of it, what how many words are you using a day? What's your vocabulary? What's your lexicon?" And number one, we want to have a huge vocabulary, but two, we actually want to use that vocabulary during the day. And most of us are getting up, sitting, walking around, sitting, walk around a little more, sit, get into a different car, sit, walk around, that's it. That's the whole day. And then I brought my hand to my face a lot, right? And so one of the first things we can say is, well, how do I break that up? So I'm just using more movement language in the day. And even just getting up and down off the ground one time starts to blow up in that vocabulary. But to your point, you know, we don't need to obsess on this. Let's find ways to be enjoyable, to go for a walk with our neighbors, to, you know, how can we play more or just monk around more? And suddenly you're you're revisiting those those park, you know, uh I'm sure they have a name where you're at a park and then there are these workstations. I can't I can't believe I'm blanking on this. Um you know, where suddenly you're like you do some dips, you hang from a bar, you you know, you touch your toes, you you bounce from you know, pole to pole. How do we work that in so it's not another thing a busy working mother has to do or a busy working executive person do? And then how do we normalize that so that it's not so weird to to monk to muse your body a little bit more instead of these very formal workout channels? >> I I find [snorts] for myself, you know, I have I have an a a child, I have a puppy, >> and and I now there >> those are those are two different things, right? I'll just >> right two different things. Two different things. Yes. But I you know there's there's moments in my life in the past where you know I my workload is so high that I find myself I found myself in this I don't have time to go like play with puppy the puppy needs to be played like this is important or you know >> go around play kick the ball soccer ball with my son um and now I find myself completely different mentality where it's like these moments are part of that you know I I spend an hour in the morning doing my my workout like this is part of it you know and it's more motivation for me not and plus I enjoy it and now it's like giving me a re like an excuse. It's like oh I enjoy it and it really does add up and matter and it's part of that fitness equation that's always in the back of my mind. And so I think that it does give people this kind of they can like it's like oh finally you mean I don't have to always spend an hour in the gym or go for that like long run. While you should be doing those as well you can have these little these little I mean movement snaps. >> I wouldn't go further. Not only can you but that's the secret to be really functional. Look Juliet and I are like there's a lot of talk of longevity. I I think it's how long have human beings been on the quest for the, you know, fountain of youth forever. So, I think that's an old trope, an old archetype. But we really want to be durable >> because what we think is the hits are going to come. You're going to get sick. Someone in your family's going to get cancer. You're going to have a deadline. Uh I was skiing with my my wife in Japan just three weeks ago. I took a horrific high-speed interaction with a rope and I tore my ACL. And so I have a MCL sprain, ACL, torn my meniscus. What do you see me? Have I mentioned? No, I'm still walking around. I'm still moving. What can I do? Stay in motion around this and the hits are going to come for us. So, how can we prepare the tissues? How do we prepare our brains? And what you're hinting at is something very powerful that constantly being in motion and seeing the opportunities. I I'll hint back to our friend uh Dave Spitz uh the Olympic coach. He he owned a gym and was suddenly like, "I'm out of shape. I don't train. I own this gym. All I do is coach people." So, he started doing something called never do nothing, which was one set of bicep curls, one set of squats, one set of push-ups, one air chair, one like there was something he could do that had positive input. And he got out of that all or nothing. Instead of 90 minutes of Olympic lifting training, I'm going to do something for my body and something that makes me feel fun to move. Um, I think with the greatest secret ever is a gentleman named Caleb Marshall. His uh YouTube channel's The Fitness Marshall. And if you put on one of his dance routines, um, you will see very quickly he and the amazing women Haley and Allison who work with him, uh, they you could dance if you did a three or five minute dance on YouTube free. Jump on his channel. We use it for warm-ups. We use it for fun. But you'll be like, "Wow, I'm mirroring. I'm touching shapes. I'm moving in ways that are novel." Three minutes. You don't have three minutes to do a little dance. I do. I bet you do. >> Yeah. The fitness marshall. >> I also love what you're you're talking about this, you know, there's there's been a big push over the past I don't even know how many years now, maybe 10. This go hard, go home, right? I mean, and and like there's there's good lessons there too, right? You're like, "Yeah, you got to do it. You got to form the habits." I think the habits is a big part of that which you know something you got to take you got to take the pieces that work for you but I think there's also burnout you know sometimes like you can take it to the extreme right >> I spoke one time at Strava headquarters >> right we did a podcast there a live podcast and I was like how many people in this office are consider themselves injured it was like 95% of the hands went up because what is straa value going faster personal PR stars, king of the mountain, queen of the mountain. And what we saw was that if you're just in service of just elite, bleeding edge, high performance, and that's the only thing that you do, that's what we get. >> Well, it sounds like, you know, this this this idea of like never do nothing. I like it. It's it's kind of on par with Ben Lavine's like you have to make it part of your personal hygiene. Exercise has to be part of your personal hygiene. Something you do every day. You brush your teeth. Why do you brush your teeth? You brush your teeth because you don't want to get cavities. You don't want your teeth fall out. You want good gum health, right? But and everyone does that. Like everyone brushes their teeth every day, at least once a day. But exercise in some way, shape, or form is something you have to do every >> day. Look at the roots of why people wouldn't want to move their bodies. Didn't have access as a kid. Didn't come from a family that valued this. My only experience with physical education was PE in the 80s. Like like not great, right? And so suddenly you realize that like I don't identify. I identify as a creative person. Like I haven't even had the access to I'm a woman. I'm not a boy. Like suddenly we're you can see that there are a whole lot of reasons that people suddenly get the message where they're like, "What do you mean my bone density is bad? What do you mean that I'm losing muscle? What do you mean I'm pre-diabetic?" And we're starting to see that in a lot of women in theirif 50s in our neighborhood who are they're like, "Hey, I'm skinny and I've been running or walking, speed hiking forever and calorie restricting cuz I want to be a certain way that the universe is telling me I need to be uh for good or for bad. I'm going to say for bad." And lo and behold, it it doesn't hold up against that test >> of right like, "Hey, we'll take what you're doing and let's third party validate it." And for whatever reason, the messages we got don't comport with what you're saying, which is, hey, how can we engage with each other more and more how do we how do we change that society? Um, you know, we were just I said I mentioned we were just at University of Hawaii and the Queens grounds there, the Queens Park was packed with people just outside walking, throwing, playing soccer. And really, this is almost a cultural problem. As long as it's my house and Costco and then work and then that's all I go and see and then I have some formal thing that I do twice a week, we're never going to solve the problem. >> I was in China last September and you were mentioning these these sort of playgrounds, these parks where they have all these outdoor, you know, >> China leads the way. >> Oh yeah. I mean, it's like it's like mandatory if you're 50. I mean, you're out and and it's great. And I was walking around with my family and not, you know, there's taichi, a lot of ta chi, too. And you just see them doing the taichi in the parks and you see them doing, you know, they're they're doing dips and they're like we were out there doing it with them and it's like the middle of the day and it's like if you're over I I said 50, but like it's actually surprisingly younger than what you would imagine like if you were here and that was a thing which is not but it should be but it's it's it's true a cultural it's a cultural problem where you know we're not we're not valuing the importance of movement you know because >> and we haven't constructed society so that that's easy and valued. And there's a premium on it, right? >> And seriously, that's a whole that's a harder problem to solve. Obviously, that's going to involve civil engineers and everything. [laughter] >> That's right. But you're really looking at human environment interaction. >> Yeah. >> Is there a park? Is there a place to move myself in an urban landscape? Do are there sidewalks? How? And suddenly you start to see that oh if we're really interested in getting to the bottom and having a population that's healthier and has less strain on the system and less and you know cardiorespiratory and metabolic disease. We have to think differently about all of these things and they need to work on the scale of decades. So we might start by saying hey if this is really important to us I'm not sure we should rip out PE out of the schools. >> Right. >> Yes. I mean, also just being outside and that's something that seems to be a message that I keep recurring message I hear you talk about is, you know, getting outside and being being active in some way, whether it's going for a walk or you're doing interval walking or you're going, you know, to the park and playing with kids, puppies, whatever. Um, being outside also is a is there's an an added layer, right? You're getting the sunlight, you know, you're getting, you know, that's really important for circadian rhythm regulation, vitamin D. If you want to have a civil society, be civil towards your neighbors because you see them all the time walking, >> right? You're with people >> 100%. >> You know, um, rucking really had a moment. I think I don't think we're past peak ruck maybe. >> Okay. >> Um, and I love that idea because people suddenly could put a little load through their spines, 10, 15, 20 pounds, and walk around the neighborhood again. Everyone can walk. It's suddenly accessible. Maybe you're not a runner, but we could load. And and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying wearing a six pound weight vest is going to change your bone density issues, but if I need you to work more, carry this pack and your feet are going to get tired carrying this pack. >> I need to start rocking. So, I do Sorry to interrupt you. I I I you know, on weekends, part of my my leisure time is is hike is like hiking. I say hiking. It's not like really hard hiking cuz I'm doing it with my 8-year-old, but we we take our puppy and we we go out and we do like little short canyon hikes and stuff. Hour, hour and a half sometimes. >> Legit. >> Yeah, legit. But I'm not. And and I had a conversation with Andrew Huberman the other day and he was like, "Oh, do you wear a weighted vest?" And I was like, "Damn, why am I not doing that?" Right. >> Well, it's how easier to slip right in. And and if it's not a weighted vest, wear a backpack. I would say a backpack is even easier and better for your body. You know, you don't have to load. Like >> I do that when I go to Disney World and walk, but like >> That's right. That's right. >> What What like Let's say I wanted to get the weighted vest. >> Perfect. >> Wait, what weight do you think I should start with? >> Yes. Start with some. You know, the idea is that like let's, you know, don't go to level 12 immediately. Let's say, hey, hey, I I found a vest I could afford. What does that feel like? Hey, maybe I can have maybe I need a couple things, right? Maybe uh, you know, if you just left it by the door and every time you walked out, you had to carry that thing around and normalized carrying loads. Uh, coming back to Philip Beach, he's like, "Human beings throw. We get up and down off the ground and we carry resources." Like, that's really what human beings do. and that carrying of resources. And if you're a mother out there carrying your baby around, you're doing it already, >> right? Carry that squirmy 10 pound thing around and you're going to be exhausted. Um, but how can we layer in maybe a better thing on top of something you're already doing? And you know the research um if you look at the company nature quant and nature dose they actually have an app that will can let you know how much time you're spending outside every day and every week and it will score that based on how rich and green your environment is. So not all time outside is equal, right? Like being outside in green, seeing far like the parks, it really does change what's going on with the the biology. But the average American is spending 20 minutes outside a week. >> Get out. >> That's what the data says. >> The average American is spending 20 minutes outside a week. And this is just in any environment, not necessarily nature. >> That's right. That's right. They're going from their house to the work to the right. We're just not actually outside. So what you start to see there are these lot of these type one errors sort of, you know, woven into our our biology. Like we don't sit on the ground. We're not actually eating fiber and fruits and vegetables. We don't see the sun ever. We don't know our neighbors. Like what we have is a lot of signaling of a lot of threats to the brain. And no wonder maybe we're not living as as well as we could if we just thought differently about the problems and taught people from much earlier ages. Our hypothesis is Julian and I that sport and this is John Rainey, right? The anxious generation. He's like, "For kids, we really have two solutions. Church and sport." >> And what we feel like is sport is an opportunity to teach all of these things about recovery, nutrition, mindset as a formal framework because we're all going to stop doing sports the way we kind of traditionally think about them. We're all going to become recreational athletes eventually. But where and when did you learn all this? Not in health, not in home. But maybe we need to have a kind of healthc, you know, back in our schools and teach kids, hey, walking is great. You know, it's not always about, you know, doing the least cool thing, but and how do we normalize, you know, more adult recess? >> Um, it's I I like the idea of this app you talked about because, you know, we tal we a lot of people measure their screen time a lot and it's kind of the opposite where you're looking at your not obviously not going to be >> screen time's never going away. >> Yeah, it's that's not going away. um it's only gotten worse. Hopefully hopefully hopefully we'll we'll swing around and and make it better again. I feel like that we're coming to that point now where people are realizing how terrible it is for health, but um with the with the out outside time and outdoor time, you know, oftent times you when you have data, >> you can make a behavior change, right? And so when people start to realize and I I know like for example, you know, people think about when they're eating and how much they're eating throughout the day and you ask the average person, they think they're like, "Oh, no. definitely eat all my food within 12 hours. There's no way I'm like still eating >> 22 hours. >> It's like 15 to 20 hours, you know, and and so it's not until they actually have the data that they realize that they're eating constantly. And so probably something similar with I bet most people are like, there's no way I'm only getting 20 minutes a week outdoors. There's no way, right? and and so um it it would be I think it's kind of an interesting concept for people to kind of start paying attention to that because when you are outside you know especially if you're in a natural environment and that's cool that this app is able to kind of distinguish somewhat between urban and nature because there's even been studies comparing people that exercise in an urban versus natural environment and when I say studies that are comparing I mean head-to-head comparison this the study looked at it so they're doing the same you know aerobic walking exercise in either a natural setting or an urban environment. And it's that only in the natural setting that people are having this really profound anti-depressant effect. It's affecting their their their brain, their mood, their mental health, which is at the core of a lot of our problems as well, health problems included. So, um I guess where I was going with that is I do like this idea of people kind of paying more attention to how much time they're spending outside. I I if we're remember I work with a lot of fancy sports teams. I spend a lot of time with small organizations like the you know different aspects of the government, the navy, the army. Everyone's trying to solve these problems. And when it comes down to taking the lessons that we're learning in high performance and transmuting them so that we can ultimately have these hyperlocal effects, which means it is the household that is the functional unit of change. And if you want to change your whole society, grab up your parents, grab up your in-laws, take your kids, and you're going to go for a walk in the evening after dinner. >> And that could be five minutes. And that already is a quantum change. That's a three veillances away from the old behavior. And those small things, you know, applied for for decades and decades and decades. Bone crushing consistency. I mean, you know, all this talk about sungazing and circadium. I'm like, when did you go outside? you're not doing that anyway. So, it's very sophisticated and very complex. But anytime we can take that and put it into the lens of when and where and how are we going to do this with my kids or my family, then we really start to win. I like to point towards, hey, let's get more time outside versus limit the scarcity thing. Like for example, when we do talk about nutrition with folks, we have a couple benchmarks. We're like, we want you to eat 800 grams of fruits and vegetables every day. It's quantifying. That's right from EC Senowski. Great study. But qual quantifying the sort of nutrient density of your of your diet, making sure you get enough fiber and we get a lot of calorie control in the mix there. But it's the first time to people were like actually you're not eating enough fruit and vegetables. And by the time we add protein in there, we have a lot of calorie control in the mix. But also, you're going to be able to keep those muscles and the bone and your connective tissue and your brain, right? So, it's a lot easier for me to say, "Hey, let's go ahead and focus on this first, and then if there's room for cookies, knock yourself right out." >> Right. H how how many what is 800 gram of fruits and vegetables look like for like >> like five cups? Five big cups. Uh a big apple maybe, you know, uh you could probably do that in four big apples a day. It's really reasonable. Of course, we love to eat the rainbow. A banana is like 80 to 100 grams. But I'll take like you're a rudabagga person and you're going to do this all in rudabago. That's still better than you not doing in a rudabagga. >> It's a It's a good This is how I like to think about nutrition as well is like what do you need? What does your body need? You need to get the fruits and vegetables for the fiber, for the micronutrients. I mean, and the and the and the balances of them are really important too. Phytochemicals that are in them. You need the protein obviously for muscle for a lot of I mean you need protein for everything >> and you know the fats come along with that. But yeah, I mean once you like once you meet those those goals and those needs, [snorts] you're everything else is like easy. Like you don't have to worry about like you're not eating the refined sugar. Why? Because you don't need it. It's not part of the equation. >> You're so full. And it also represents, you know, look, I um I'm a complete advocate for cookies. Like I love myself a good cookie. Um, but I will tell you that um, if that cookie represents the lion share of my calories for the day, that's different than, >> you know, I've got this really well-nourished human who's got his hitting all these things. And again, >> beans are on the menu, >> white potatoes are on the menu. Like those those things count, lentils, we're in there. So, I'm agnostic about your your family traditions, your religious, cultural traditions. Show me you're getting all the fruits and vegetables and then we can have the next conversation. And because you know what's going to happen, your sleep's going to get better. Your connective fish is going to better. Your gut health's going to get better. So we start to see the whole system start to change. Now my my shoulder doesn't hurt as much anymore. Oh, isn't that weird? Started eating more, sleeping better, shoulder started feeling better, too. And uh you know, you're absolutely right that when we focus on that, then um it is less of a problem. And again, for a lot of people who are entry is into nutrition for body composition, if you eat this way, there's a lot of calorie control in the background. You're going to be shocked. And don't worry about the fruit, everyone. You know, you're like, "Oh my gosh, these bananas are going to kill me." They're not. You know, you're and you're not eating the bananas. But, you know, one of those loaves, I was just passing Starbucks, right? And one of those little piece of lemon loaves is like 430 calories. It's [snorts] so good. Do you know how much a pound of cherries is or a pound of melon? It's 230 calories. So, go ahead and eat a pound of cherries. Don't do it. You'll have disaster pants. It'll be a disaster. >> But, uh, you'll see that while you can crush the crap out of fruit and have a lot of calorie control, plus fiber plus, you know, >> in the background. And then that's a really nice way of saying, hey, if I I'm spending I got to get this much time outside, it automatically limits indoor behavior. Or I've got to get this many steps that automatically limits these, you know, so I don't have to say, don't do this. I'm like, let's get this instead, >> right? Focus on what you need. Focus on what like because >> I just love it. It's it's great a great way to think about it. And also, it helps you like the processed food thing, you know, with with this. I think as people became more educated with the dangers of refined sugars, for example, they didn't they they was focused on just this refined sugar. It's like this tunnel vision. Refined sugar is bad. And so it's okay to eat these processed foods that are high protein >> protein pretzels. >> Protein pretzels, protein chips. That's right. I mean, like everything. It's it's protein cinnamon buns with no with no sugar, but it's like alulose, but it's a cinnamon bun, but it's high protein, right? All of it's garbage. It's all garbage. It's a food thing, you know? >> And there's times for that. If I'm a high level athlete, I'm going to have to eat some processed foods because I got to get these calories in. That's fueling. That's not nutrition. We call that those are different different things. Oh, we're fueling. Let me introduce you to the bagel. We're fueling. Hey, maybe there's less bagels for an average person. >> All right, Kelly, I am uh I want to take this opportunity to talk to you about a topic that is of interest to me. I know other folks are interested as well. I think it's something that's not really discussed enough and that really has to do with youth sports, training youth. I mean this is a whole big area and there's a lot of interest there's a lot of excitement there's a lot of problems um >> are there >> I mean I guess I see them I see them on the you know playing soccer field for example I I see I see them arising in even young in young athletes so um maybe we could just start >> I mean actually where do you want to start where do you think's a good start >> let's call it the industrial youth sport complex right and say that yes, if you have a a parent or you're a a guardian of a child who plays, you're probably not having the experience with sport that you were hoping to have. It's a lot more complicated and that we're asking parents and guardians to be sports psychologists, nutrition experts, pseudo physios, right? You got to do strength and conditioning. You're suddenly at performance timing. When do we eat this meal between these three? I have a child. Wow. Do we specialize? Do we play multiple games? Do we specialize in two sports simultaneously? How do I manage the crazy parents in the crowd? It's expensive. It's not right where it's not working. Most kids are dropping out at age 13. It's not fun anymore. Youth injuries are through the roof. Like what what's happening with sport? And I think what's happening is we need to train parents for the job they're already doing, which is become the high performance directors for their families and begin there to sort of pull at these at these these strings because theoretically we all got into sports or got our kids in sports because it was good for them and it taught us rules about working with other people and losing and sacrifice and being coached and taking feedback. But oo, it doesn't feel like a really wholesome experience for everyone anymore, does it? >> How do we how do we start by just making training fun for kids? >> Oh, well, parents, what is this for you? Is this for your kids first? Right. And um there's a direct correlation, and I'm going to out everyone here. The more experienced and gnarly an athlete you were, the more chill you are as a parent. And the less experience you had playing college or professional sports, the more hyper aggro you are as a parent for some reason. You know, we just came out of the Olympics and we there's a lot of talk about Norway. Norway. Nor what is Norway doing that they've dominated the Winter Olympics and they they don't keep score with their kids till age 13. They have national programs that work on development so kids love it and continue to move. You know, for us here typically the tradition is winning and getting my kid to the next level so she can unlock the scholarship or go to university or be pro and it's just not it's not likely. So, we if we're going to tug at this, let's start to say that what can we control at home instead of adding complexity on long-term youth athletic development. Does your kids sleep? So, we can start there. The golden rule is really adults need 7 to eight hours of sleep. >> Yes. Roughly. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. So, what we say in our program is, hey, we want you to be in bed for eight hours without looking at your phone. You're going to set and then so if you wake up in the middle of the night, don't panic. You're just going to lay there and rest. Super cool. There's not a single study that says that a child needs less than 8 to 10 hours of sleep. Zero studies say that. Like they if you're growing a body, >> you need more than that for sure. >> More than that. So 8 to 10. But if you go into the typical teenager and and track them, they're not sleeping eight hours. So we have this fundamental problem where kids are not sleeping, not recovering, not adapting, not growing, and then we're just adding more volume and more complexity on top of a system that's not adapting to the exercise. >> Then we can go to nutrition and then we can go like you'll start to see you're like, oh, it's the same conversation. How do we normalize some of these things? And then ask what the next step is. I think also something that I've seen is like even starting at like an early age, you know, five, six, seven, >> there, like you mentioned, it's not really there's no focus on development. It's like it's already like I want my kid to be on the ARB team >> and if they're not on the ARB team, then I want them to get there and how do I train to get them on the ARB team? Yeah. >> What's wrong with that mentality? >> Well, why does that mentality exist in the first place? I think we every parent wants their kid to get playtime and be recognized as the chosen one and not ride the bench and you know there's a lot there. Um you know what I can talk about is you know Juliet and I we derived a lot of experience and a lot of benefits from sport. So it was really important. We saw and we're such fans but we saw there was an opportunity to get our kids some of those same lessons. And so we number one we just said hey sport is not optional here but that let's define that you can be in dance you could be in yoga you can be in club soccer you have to find something you want to do swim team what are the local you know CIO leagues what are the options available to us but you have to choose one of those so it wasn't optional you have to move year round and then eventually you'll find the thing that you want to do we did a lot of sampling of things and you know I have a daughter who is fully retired you know, is she's a retired. She's what's called a narp. Do you know this term? >> No. >> Non-athletic regular person. Okay. >> At college, right? She's not a D1 athlete. She goes to Michigan, stud, >> but can snatch a barbell, cook, knows how to deal with her stiff quads, knows how to sleep, right? Just has some tools. She's like, "Oh, this is how I care for her." And then I have a a child who's 5'11, is going to play a goalie at Berkeley next year, and she is a monster, right? So we have one kid who we graduated and retired. We have one kid who we're trying to prep up and the approach is the same. And what we have to ask as parents is what can we control? So I'll give you an example. The sleep thing I can't if you want to reduce risk injury risk sleep. You want to grow and have that kid be better athlete sleep. And what you're really going to see is wow we have to have a lot of conversations at our house around tech and bedtime. And it's that's going to be a big one. But can I pause you there? Because even if you have those conversations, >> if you have an athlete and they're training late because you have games late, practices are late, and then they have and they're they're let's say they're in school because most kids are in school, >> hard school, >> hard school, and the start time is early >> and they have homework to do when they get back from their training. What gives? But what you'll see is now we start to say, "Okay, eight hours is going to be our minimum sleep time." So that means we all agree that we're going to we're going to sleep go from, you know, 8 or we're going to go to bed at 11 cuz we're night owls too and we're going to sleep till 7, right? In this situation, then we can at least start to say here is our minimum on that. And when we can steal a half hour here or steal a half hour there, we will. And you're really bringing up the problems with this perfect secret scroll youth athletic program. I'm like, it falls apart with when do we eat together as a family? When do I feed my kid a snack? She comes home and we ate dinner at 5, you know, but she had practice late and now we got to feed her again. And now like I am pro- cereal. Cereal is like a secret postworkout fueling panacea. Kids will eat it. My child can digest milk, so she's got cow milk on there, right? You could choose whatever milk, but I need to get some calories in after that, right? That thing has a little bit of protein. It's not going to be huge crazy fat meal. It's not going to disrupt your sleep too much, but like you started to see, you're like, "Wow, when are we going to do this?" I started making breakfasts for my kids. They're in high school that they could take with them because when I start to ask look at my wife, I'm like, "Hey wife, you don't eat breakfast." She said, "I'm not very hungry in the morning." My kids weren't hungry in the morning, but they were hungry a little bit later. So, I could wake them up early, force them to eat this meal they didn't want to eat, have this terrible interaction, or I could have them sleep till 7:20, they run out the door, and I now have controlled breakfast. Emergency done. Omega's taken, vitamin D taken, there's a fermented food, then a little yogurt or kefir, there's a protein, here's a apple cut up. I know my child leaves the house at least with the constructs of things that look like the first meal of the day plus some snacks later on and we're rolling there. And so you really have to think, I can't play the best game. What's the next best game I can play? Where do I have some agency and control? Because it is really tricky and it's going to only get trickier. The more serious your kid gets in sport and with the demands of high school, >> it's and theoretically your kids will need to have friends theoretically. All right, let's go let's let's rewind a little bit before high school and talk about early specialization because you were talking about like how important it was to sample everything and you know like what what are some of the pros and cons of for example a child just sticking to one sport after they you know started doing it when they were five or whatever. Yeah. And and stuck with it and then not really >> trying you know like let's say they're soccer and they never do baseball or basketball or something with their upper body for example. So, what are some of the pros and cons? >> Well, I would say number one is the what's the point? We specialization is a is here and it's real and you're never going to be the one parent who just bucks the whole tradition and like it's it's going to take a cabal of parents be like we're not doing this. We're not playing year round and remember we have we're aware and we have children in these sports and club goes year round but we'll pull Caroline out for example and for and say hey during this time maybe you can do another sport maybe for some of these kids the extra sport is yoga or dance or strength and conditioning becomes the extra place to teach movement skills because kids will become hyper specialized very quickly. I'm an outside hitter. I'm a pitcher. I do this one thing and we don't have a chance to develop the motor skills problem solving that happens through a diversity and sampling. So what you can do is recognize that hey I can try not to say okay I'm going to specialize now in two sports which is how parents solve the problem. Now my kid is a lacrosse specialist and a soccer specialist with camps and both, right? But we have to look at are there times off. Um how do specialization is going to is going to is a feature of the system but we have to now look at when and where we're going to put movement diversity other play and and I'll say I'll take specialization over not moving. Um I think it's important to recognize that Free play does not exist anymore. Will not exist anymore. That's a construct of Gen X. We used to play in the street. It just doesn't happen. And now we're going to have to have these formal movement programming engagement because that's the only place we're going to get that free play in in you know club soccer, club basketball club, those things. So what can we control? Are we controlling for those things? Are your kids eating enough? Are they sleeping enough? you know, do you have the skills to protect what you can protect and control what you can control so that we can keep the kids moving? And I think if Norway has a phrase, it's like the most kids for the longest. That's their goal. >> The most kids for the longest for the for the free play, the unstructured play. That was the question I was going to ask you like the importance of that. And I mean it is weird how it doesn't I mean it doesn't exist anymore. I mean I guess we're all too afraid of everything because we have all this information and it's made us scared of everything. I remember playing for just hours and hours outside in the streets. I mean I I remember you >> came up with games. You invented invented games. It was so fun. I mean we had all kinds of crazy games. >> Um now parents have to create these sort of artificial environments that are playdates, right? And so now playdates are at least my way of like trying to allow my child to get free play. Let's have a play date here. You're in our yard. Whatever. Like have at it. Like have fun. >> The doors are locked. Stay outside. >> Stay outside. They're always outside. What like how is that really is that really important for you know for athletes for for >> all youth skills are learned best under play conditions? In fact, I would go a step further and say that play is the secret sauce to any adult having any fun and sticking to something in the long term. And if you watch a soccer practice of an elite team, it doesn't look like a lot of play. It doesn't look like a lot of fun. And no wonder kids are like, "This sucks. My friends aren't here. It's not fun." So, we really have to think about protecting the sanctity of this play idea and and exploration. And, you know, David Epste has a new book coming out about constraints and this constraintled model of how can we create better play through a set of constraints. That's how we problem solve. And you know, you're hinting at um you know, where's play need to happen? Resource. Well, we've just stripped recess. Like, you know, you see the the playgrounds of the 70s and ' 80s were kill a child. And now they're just like these neat little two foot off the ground things. There's no expiration, no no feedback. Um you know, think about the number of times you jumped off a swing at, you know, peak velocity and peak apex, right? and just there's no place for kids to get this kind of input. So it's really important that we're looking at well wow tumbling and gymnastics seems to be really important skills if you could access them right and again I everything I'm going to say I'm just layering on that not everyone can afford that or do that but we have to think differently about what inputs we're having earlier so that we don't have these problems later. Um, every kid should be required to have PE year round. And that PE could be dance, could be weightlifting, could be yoga, could be right. We need that sort of movement literacy, movement competency as part of the things that we value. If we're really going to get to the bottom of because it's not here, I say some controversial. We have PE or we have less red dye. Number five, I'm going to take PE. It's going to have a bigger impact on the world. Means we're going to have to fund it. We're going to have to play it. >> I'm with you. >> Yeah. And so I think it's um you know we need to work on all these different systems. I'll give you an example. Uh there's a physician we we work with um who is president of the knee society for ACL's. And when a kid would tear his ACL or her ACL in the 80s and 90s um they pull out this big drill, drill into the cortical bone, it's very intense. The bones are very hard. Now they just core the bone by hand. They just hand turn the drill because the bones are so soft. So, we're seeing this demineralization, this less hardening of the bones of children. What is that about? >> Is that why they're breaking their They're so like more like I The kids are breaking their bones. Like >> we're seeing a a whole host of injuries that did not exist. Torn lats, more UCLs, more ACL's. I mean, the epidemic of ACL right now is is its own topic. But when you come underneath that, what we see is didn't have women didn't have access to movement control, overplay, did not have uh you know, don't have good nutrition features, aren't sleeping, right? No offseason, right? Just what we can see is we've set up the the perfect conditions and this is a normal feature or normal accident given the sort of errors and the complexity of of this person engaging in this play which was supposed to be fun in the first place. And for offseason now, offseason is now for me, at least what I've seen is, okay, it's offseason, but now we have this other sport, too. I mean, and and maybe that's that's fine, but again, going back to the the unstructured free play and how important it is. It it's just >> kids don't do it. Maybe if you surf, maybe if you're into some extreme sports, skateboarding is a great example of like the probably the best uh pickup basketball though, there are a couple pockets where that still exists, but mainly there looks like recreational sports. kid finds a recreational sport. She's a skateboarder. She's skating at the park all the time. That's the best free play there is. [snorts] >> And some kids even like decide that they don't like to exercise. And >> yeah, what what kid likes to exercise? >> No one. But you know what kids likes to play tag and >> and scramble and climb and and play games? Every kid. So I think imagine if we just took our adult sensibility. Let me introduce you to the Pelaton, Johnny. You're 12. Like, that sucks. That's a sucky life. I mean, that is the, you know, that's not a steer child sport life. And there are mutants out there who, you know, who probably picked up early, but that's not the whole. And I think if we, um, I'm going to shout out uh, a gentleman named Jeremy Fr. um his uh you can see how he programs for young long-term youth athletic development in his community and the number of tag games and diving and problem solving and skills and you're like oh that's PE. It really should look like that. >> What about um adding in strength training? Like at what age is that? Well, I guess I shouldn't say that. Like what's the readiness? like there's a there's a readiness >> that people can look for. >> So, I mean, do my kids need to front squat heavy early, right? This is like, you know, like no, but what we're doing is we're trying to solve with a complex thing a complex problem with a simple solution. Like, our kids need to be jumping and crawling and sprinting. Like, you're going to try to replicate sprinting with a child like in the gym. That's for adults. We can start to layer in formal instruction early. That's what gymnastics and tumbling and parkour looks like, right? That's why we get our kids into swim teams because there's okay to layer in some technical skills early on. As the child moves into sort of middle school, we might start to add in a few things or it looks like, hey, we're doing working on pull-ups or, you know, can you control your body weight in space? We don't necessarily we're not worried about loading children because children are loading themselves but you know it's okay to start to say hey we also should have some formal movement training on top of this play structure training and now when you get out there um you'll see that there are lots of people who have good play models um I'll point out Ido Portal I'll point out gold medal body fitness GMBB um you know move there are so many ways where we can be a little bit more formal in our movement play where we're exposing um Erwan Laor who's the originator of Movenat started to ask people who can do a pull-up how many of you who can do pull-ups had a tree in your backyard that you could climb and there was like a onetoone correlation I grew up climbing grew up playing can still do a pull-up so let's think in those terms how do we change the environment uh so that there's better exposure because what we're seeing is we just kids don't tumble kids you We Juliet and I worked at a uh we worked field day for our school, our middle school and uh there were like fifth graders who couldn't do a two-foot hop, fifth graders who couldn't do a ford somersault, right? It was shocking to us and we're talking about doing like we're doing the sack race, right? And the kids struggle to have enough hip range of motion to put the sack on. So by the time fifth grade has come around, we're really starting to see these patterns set up where we don't have a lot of movement fluency, movement control just because the environment isn't asking for it. >> Is what how do you feel about jiu-jitsu? Is that something that's >> online with like the gymnastics? Let's say they don't do gymnastics, they do. >> Lovely, lovely, lovely. I think suspect that um if every human had to do jiu-jitsu, we'd have a better society, right? Cuz you died 10 times today. Hey, I got choked out by this, you know, this old lady choked me out. Like, that's definitely humbling. Um, you learn how to have contact. That's safe contact and formal contact. Um, you know, there there are real clear this is okay, this is not okay. You learn to what your tolerances are. You tap out. You can, you know, I mean, that would be amazing if we could create and once again, you maybe martial arts training or some kind of training that existed for a reason. So, Martial arts are another wonderful way to put kids into some some formal movement skills before we start to just say, "Hey, we got to get to the gym." >> And some of these, you know, movement skills and working on I mean, trying to recreate free play essentially and and make >> That's right. We're trying to recreate free play, >> right? um along with nutrition and you know trying to really at least get that minimum dose of like eight hours of of sleep per night helps with injury prevention with kids >> probably bigger than any other thing. If you want if you are interested in protecting your children so that they are less likely to get injured sleep would be the number one thing I would lean into. But but also more importantly is I'm not more importantly but also equally important would be al not just you know training in the sport that they're doing and just adding more volume and adding more volume right I mean like >> does it work for adults? >> Hell no it doesn't work for adults. [laughter] I know, but it's going to work for your child who's like, you know, it's it's the whole thing is bananas, too. And if you're in a sport like that has rink time, your children, your 12-year-old's playing at 11:00 at night or has, you know, it like it is anathema to what it means to develop a person who is durable and wants to play and enjoys the game. And, you know, those kids are going to self- select eventually. Like Caroline identified that she wanted to play in college and was starting to put in the extra work much earlier. >> Enjoys the game. That's key. So why do 13year-olds on average is that the drop 12 to 13 year olds why do they why do they I call it drop out but like it's >> they they reject it because it's not fun. >> Like they're they suddenly aren't with their friends. They don't have a good time anymore. It's not enjoyable. Really becomes about outcome driven. You know one or zero. I I won. I have value. We didn't win. It wasn't fun, you know, and you one of the great opportunities we have is that where [snorts] do we train adults to become coaches? So the whole American model is predicated on you being a volunteer coach. And where did you get all that training? Maybe when you were in high school, you got you modeled some behavior from a good coach, but we don't do enough formal coach development, even how to talk to kids at different times or where and how we kids acquire skills and that movement theory, motor learning. There's a lot of richness here, but we we have to start to level up because right now sometimes we're like, we just need a body, you know, and men uh particularly are like, well, I played in high school, so I'm a qualified coach. And you're like, that's just insane. Like, you know, it's, oh, you you did a sport for four years 100 years ago and you think you're qualified to teach this developing person. No. So, we can do a lot better. >> I mean, I'm I'm certainly grateful that there's people that volunteer out there. But I can through experience tell you as my child was doing, you know, the the wreck, you know, volunteer dad sport versus the actual coach. Night and day difference. And I mean, night and day difference. >> Yeah. And uh you know this is a community level problem, right? And I I think you know Juliet and I are deep into a book project called outplay where we're trying to see if we can straighten what we can control out because we can't control you know private equity is coming into youth sports. That's all you need to know, right? Oh, this is a for-profit venture that we can maximize for efficiency and profit. >> Do you call it the sport industrial complex? >> Youth and sport. Yeah, something like that. Right. And what you're seeing is it's very expensive. And is it giving us better outcomes? Do we have kids playing longer? Do we keep all the kids playing? We don't. And um you know, at some point your child, if she is legit, will become a specialist. You know, they uh they asked Caroline to be the goalie for a different team, you know, when she was a junior. And I was like, too late. If you want to do this, you're all in on this because that's what it takes to play at these levels. And simultaneously, you know, one of the, I think, real opportunities we have to protect kids is to get them a little stronger and a little fitter. And that can be very simple classic strength and conditioning. We have a lot of parents who come up to us and say, "Hey, my daughter's been recruited or my son's been recruited, but the coach is asking him what his front squad is and what his power clean is. What are those things?" And we're like, "Your child's 18 and has never been in a formal strength conditioning program. That's crazy." So, we're going to have to start to add some of that back in as we get into high school so that we be can become a little bit more durable, but also some of those things can happen in your own home. >> What are some of the main, I would say, important points of your of you and Juliet's new book, Outplay, that you could kind of just easy, you know? >> Oh, well, I tell you uh without giving the whole thing away, we have real talks. We can establish what the research says about needing sleep, but real tactics about how you're going to solve that sleep problem. >> Okay. >> Um the fueling is such a problem. We see hugely underfueled kids who are all say malnourished and underfueled, drinking a lot of energy drinks, eating a lot of, you know, reactive snacks. I'm starving. I eat a bag of, you know, Doritos, you know. Um so we have we we're not putting base nutrition on kids who have these growing body needs. And then our fueling is really, really tricky. When do we eat as a family? What's the pregame snack? So, we try to really kind of get to the bottom of that. We also try to give parents a a simple rubric for helping their kid get out of pain because a lot of times your kid come, you know, when we ask, we work with big camps and stuff all the time and I raise I'm like 100 kids in here. I'm like, who's painfree? And like one hand goes up and that girl's 12 years old and she's wrapped in bubble tape and on drugs obviously cuz she's the anomaly. And every other hand these kids are like, "Yeah, my shoulder hurts. My back hurts. My knee hurts." And parents head snap around and they're like, "What is this?" And the kids are like, "You never asked. We just thought it was normal." And for children particularly, those things are so superficially myofascial. Typically, it's just very simple inputs. Change the range of motion, you know, put a little isometric in there, a little soft tissue, we're back. And and what about with the um the the the nutrition part's interesting because you know I'm not in the the the middle school high school phase yet. I'm in like still the picky eater. I mean I guess they continue to be picky eaters but for different reasons, right? And so you know how do you how do you solve that problem when it's the kid doesn't want to eat something? Well, we've we've this is uh ungenerous, but we've never seen a kid uh um not eat when they were hungry. Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. >> So, some of this is you as an adult like we have a three vegetable rule and I have one child who is a gourmet and like started subscription cookie business and loves to cook and eat and I have another child who loved brown foods, right? And like was very picky. And what we started to do is if we just had three meal three vegetables every dinner there's three vegetables and you can eat any of those three vegetables you want but there's always three vegetables in everything that we cooked and when we sit down and this is the meal and there's not a snack right afterwards or a thing like this is what we're eating then you know we have to train our kids and then there's a place for nutrition on top of that like an emergency is very inexpensive at least you're going to get some vitamins and minerals maybe it's the lowest form of that. But you know that emergency fizzy drink, Caroline has been chugging one of those because at the very least I know she has some vitamin C and some micronutrient in her system when she leaves for school. And our hypothesis is that hey, if we can control a little bit more in the morning and a little bit in the evening plus maybe a snack, the rest of it you don't have any control over. So let's control what we can control there. You know, a lot of times we have a lot of conversations about when do we eat and how do we fuel and so we sort of have some a simple rubric like 3 hours out just regular meal and and you can relate to this. You go to a swim meet, kid swims at 25, she gets like a 1,000 calorie Jamba Juice or a donut. You're like, dude, your child does not need to eat. Like she ate breakfast. But then on the other hand, we have kids who are playing and playing and playing and don't want to eat because they're nervous, don't have access, right? In this situation, I'm like, have you met the uncrustable? Like this is a powerful, you know, tool where we can get some calories in you to fuel what you're doing. And so on the other hand, we have to like force kids to eat. And and there are body composition issues there and timing issues there. And how can we think about fueling in a way that's you know parents don't go insane. >> Yeah. Um I like also the idea of it's like this is this is what we have. You're going to have three vegetables or you're going to be hungry >> and you'll wake up talking about breakfast. >> Yeah. >> You will. >> Yeah. >> You know and so as we notice though we're not talking about optimization. We're saying okay this is what humans do and we have to learn and teach that and here's the framework for that. Right. Um, you know, when we have training table, I will stand be set up near the, you know, the the buffet line. I'm like, more rice, more fruit. You know, I got to make these kids eat to support what they're doing in the pool or on on the field. And it's it really is fueling is we see an an epidemic of underfueling and reliance on caffeine and sugar. >> Wow. So, in high school high school sports, >> it's real bad. >> Okay. I have a few rapid fire questions for you on this. So, if you have a 10-year-old soccer player, you've got a 12-year-old swimmer, and you got a 14-year-old basketball player, what would the first month of training look like for each of those? Would they be similar, different? How would they differ? >> They differ in terms of, you know, as we've run these programs, they're different in terms of maybe the load or the volume, but not the fundamental skills. And I'll give you an example. Um, we're huge fans of handstands. It's what you mean, talk about being upside down, learning new skill, great for shoulders. Kids love it. It's play. You can walk up. We can pike on. There's so many ways a downward dog is a handstand. >> But that's a great example where everyone gets handstands and and even my adults get handstands, right? Because we we're able to teach and learn in this play. And that's body weight overhead. Now I'm going to put the same body weight overhead on this, you know, strict press. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, what are you doing? But I'm like, handstand is constraintled. No one dies doing a handstand. It's skill-based, right? Kids get it. So what we can start to do is that, hey, probably if we took the fundamentals of track and field, running, jumping, and throwing, that might probably get us 90% of the way, right? like um who uh Stuart McMillan, Altus track and field um has really [snorts] said, "Hey, we should really teach people how to skip again." And we now have to program skipping into our adult program. But kids can't skip. They just So if you did a track and field warm-up, threw some medicine balls around, bounced and jumped, rolled, played t like all of a sudden that feels like a lot of play and a lot of movement exposure. And then we might say, "Hey, let's let's work on this aspect of the barbell or we're going to teach you a kettle bell swing or basic calisthenics of push-ups and lunges and and pull-ups, but in a game." >> In a game. >> Yeah. So, body weight control, you know, done. And then we remember we can make it hard with breathing and we can also make it hard with speed and we can make it hard with Right. There's so many ways where we can challenge that body weight control stuff without just saying here, hold this. >> Love it. Okay. Um, next question. What are the five exercises or movement practices you would keep in nearly every youth training pro program? >> We need to spend a lot more time jumping on landing on one leg. Um, learning to basically do some tumbling. Um, there's got to be some aerobic training, but again, that can be done with tag and play. You got to have that exposure. Um, you know, we probably don't train sprinting acceleration through games enough. That's a real opportunity there. Um, you know, it's not about core strength for kids. It's not about, uh, you know, if we look at what the body needs to do, I'm like, here, Dr. Patrick, is a squat for you. But if I had a kid jump from a seated position or do multiple broad jumps, it's that same squat position, same squat mechanic applied at speed load, same shapes, just with a different set of tools. Does that make sense? >> So, we can suddenly see that >> um FIFA had a recognized that they were having an ACL problem in in soccer. It's a problem. And they came up with a really well documented, well validated way of mitigating lower extremity injury in children with some simple hopping, simple neuromuscular control drills on a single leg. And no one does it. And even if you do it well, it still purports to work. So at some point what you know we've got to just have some fundamental movement language where we you know maybe it's jumping jumping pause and we can hey push that knee out get that foot straighter right can you take a breath there um and then can we constrain I I would submit that if you and I played spikeball we would touch a thousand shapes and positions that we could not get in a formal movement practice. So more of that and then it becomes a little bit more formal as we start to get into high school. I think >> is your data showing that doing those sort of movements [clears throat] and and pro training programs does reduce the ACL injuries >> uh like dramatically. And so that's a thing that we're like well who owns that problem? Well maybe the parent at home. And we have to have coaches who are like insisting on this work because, you know, they're like, "Hey, I want to coach, right?" But meanwhile, we have kids who are unprepared to be coached, >> right? Um, okay. So, what can a parent do at home in 10 minutes for 10 minutes a day? You're kind of talking about some of the there's overlap here. What can a parent do at home in 10 minutes a day that would meaningfully improve durability and movement options >> in 10 minutes? You know, I would say you guys need to play a game, you know, so what games are available? Um, one of the things we identified with Caroline as a goalie early on and even in water polo, and this came from their coaches, they said, "Hey, if you're really interested in your daughters being good at water polo, they need to do more long toss. We need to throw a ball." So, we went out and we started throwing a baseball, throwing a softball with a mitt, smaller than a water polo ball. And we do so much throwing. And even today, I see women in the pool who do not cannot throw. They they huck. They It's because and they've never thrown outside the pool ever. So, what you can start to see is, hey, what are these fundamental skills? Maybe that's a frisbee. Maybe we go play catch. Maybe it's spikeball. Maybe it's reaction off the wall. But we probably need to figure out ways to play where the brain and the eyes are the limiter and the driver, not necessarily the physiology. That's the piece that we're really needing to lean into now is we've got to get this brain and this eye all working together, right? We're having to train that now. Like we do a lot of tennis ball work >> because I need kids to throw and catch and jump and bounce and there's lots of great examples on the web of all the drills you can do playing around with a tennis ball. >> There's so many you can do. >> That's right. And it's I mean it's a tennis ball there at the local sports store near us. There's thousands of tennis balls and I just take hundreds at a time. >> Yeah. Um, and then lastly, what should be removed from a young athletes program before adding anything new? >> Uh, I would say, oo, that's a really good question. Um, you know, the sort of junk volume first if we can, right? um the [snorts] sophistication that comes along with the trappings of parents feeling like their kid is getting a leg up with like sports ladders. Um we see a lot of agility training kinds of things that feel sciency but aren't really sciency >> really. >> Right. So, you know, we see a lot of kids working extra hard on more pitching or more throwing or more hitting. And what kids really need is, you know, gross motor skill development. So, I see I think parents will go down the rabbit hole of more special hypers specialization too early and they'll get more private lessons in this very small thing because that's what they think. But on the other side, there's so much more, you know, opportunity. We're picking up dimes. We're stepping over course. >> Great. answer. Great answer. Love it. Well, >> Dr. Start Kelly, thank you so much for sharing all this like just vast amounts of very important information. Everything from mobility to injury prevention to moving throughout the day to helping, you know, train and and coach our kids better so that they are able to handle the world, you know. >> Able to handle the world. That's it. >> Yes. Yeah. Um, you have there's a lot of you've got many books, you've got a podcast, you've got I mean, let's let's go through. People want to continue to to listen to they want to follow your work. They want to continue >> and you need to meet my wife. I think that's really important. >> For sure. We're going to do that when April, right? >> That's right. Uh, please um we just everything is at the ready state and you can see our coaching platforms, our courses. Um, if you're interested in, hey, I want to begin a mobility practice, we have an app called Mobility Coach, which is really good. There are self- tests in there. If you have a ball and a roller, we can really get you a long way in terms of making your body feel better at home. Um, and you know, way leads to way. There's so much that's a any one of those things uh are in there. Our last book, Built to Move, we wrote as kind of a primer because a lot of us nerds are in doing this, but we wanted to bring neighbors and family members and and members of our athletic community along. So, we kind of wrote a prequel to everything. And that's I think that's a really nice place to start. >> Well, awesome. Uh again, thank you so much for joining me today. >> Pleasure. This is been a dream. I mean, you have been like the science voice in my head for over a decade. So, being here is incredible. >> Thank you.