The Savings Expert: They’re Lying To You About Building Wealth - Do THIS Instead! | Humphrey Yang

An alarming new trend. More Americans are tapping into their 401ks for emergencies. >> There are a million things that keep people broke, but these three things in particular are doing the most damage. >> A family of four [music] now needs nearly $140,000 a year just to survive. >> New data shows Americans are saving less as they struggle to [music] keep up with rising costs. The personal savings rate across the country is nearing a record [music] low. >> Do you think that that trend is going to stay the same in 2030? Do you think that people are going to be even worse off than they are today? The blueprint to wealth is incredibly simple, but most people don't know where [music] to start. >> The stock market has set 53 all-time record highs since the election. Think of that one year. >> The rich are getting richer and they're getting richer faster. I mean, that's the reality. >> What are [music] the biggest financial red flags? I mean, you can get away with a lot of stuff. You just carry yourself like you look rich. >> We're minting millionaires faster than [music] we've ever minted them before. >> So, what is technically the number one wealth killer? Look, if you want to get rich in 2026, here's how you do it. Humphrey Yang, you used to be a financial adviser and now you're a financial educator on YouTube. I absolutely love your videos. You simplify very complex topics. We have a lot we agree on. We also have some things we disagree on, which I am very excited to explore this episode. Thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to dive into some of these deeper topics that we might disagree on. Let's >> So, I want your take on some of these insane statistics. More than half of Americans currently cannot cover a $1,000 emergency. And on top of that, one in five car buyers has a payment above $1,000 a month. Is this the fault of the American economy or are people just spending themselves into oblivion? You know, I think it's partially lack of financial education, obviously, number one. And number two, impulse impulse control zero. A lot of Americans just have no impulse control. They go to a car dealership. They see their shiny new toy. They want that shiny new toy. They say, "Oh, I can afford the monthly payment." And then they get kind of roped into these car loan terms, high APRs, no money down or low money down, so that they can just drive the car off the lot and they get something that they can't really afford. But do you think that Americans are getting more impulsive as time has gone on? Like are we are we worse off now than we were 10 years ago in terms of like financial literacy and financial discipline? or is there something else at play? I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say that Gen Z and younger probably feel like they can't get ahead, right? Because everything is so expensive. So, they start giving up on long-term financial goals and instead opting for the short term, right? Renting something that is really nice to live in and also, you know, getting a luxury car that they probably can't afford because they're like, "Well, what's the point of saving for a house? I'm never going to get there." Why do they feel like they can never get to a house? I yes I guess it's more challenging now easy for you to say no no it's it's more challenging now than it was back in the day but at the same time I mean like we've explored this subject in in in so much depth if you just set aside a little bit of money and you invest it yes it might take you 5 to 10 years unfortunately that's very that's very difficult and annoying but like it's it's still doable >> yeah I think like the biggest argument that you might hear is that the relative wages to what things cost Let's say from the boomer age to now is a lot the relative cost is higher, right? So that means you know the median wage 50 years ago could have bought you a house in 1 to two years of your earnings. But nowadays it's like 5 to seven or even more just and even for the down payment in a lot of these places people have to work 10 years before even saving enough money to get that down payment. Do you think at the crux of it all it's truly just home ownership? Because a lot of other things have gotten cheaper relative to wages, like a lot of things in the technology sector, you know, microwaves, phones on average, like things are decreasing in cost relative to the increase of wages, but homes obviously there's been a huge change in terms of affordability. Yeah. I mean, I think that's also like the narrative that we're kind of taught, right? Which is like the American dream is owning a house. So that is kind of the benchmark that people kind of judge their own personal finances against. And so if that's like the ultimate financial goal for a lot of people, to have a house and then to have a family, which is the point of life in America, then if they can't really afford these homes anymore, then yeah, then I can see why they would just be like, "All right, well, I'm going to yolo my money on Khi or I'm going to yolo my money on, let's say, a $1,000 car payment." >> So part of me wonders if buying a home is not actually the goal anymore. Like I think that other people just want to get rich. It's it's not even about buying a home and having a place to like to to hang your hat. It's about like having a Lamborghini and having all of these things that are advertised to us with mark like genius marketing commercials, Tik Tok investors and traders that are able to >> I don't think it's that return. I think it's just the house is being seen now as an investment is like a a wealthb buildinging vehicle. You think people are still in the same mindset as they were previously? >> I don't think any of it's changed. I just think things have gotten a lot more expensive and people with social media are a little more apt to like complain about things and be vigilant about things. Absolutely. But I don't think it's a Lambo anymore. I don't think like people really care as much about that as they do like if I buy a house, I'm going to be way wealthier in the future. >> I think it's consumerism. Like I think if you go on TikTok, everyone's talking about buying the new expensive clothing or buying expensive vintage clothing or looking the best, having like the nicest watch, living in the high-rise apartment. All of like expensive life is glamorized now. And so everyone wants that, but they can't afford it with their wage. And so yeah, they go to things like call she or they want to yolo their life savings on Wall Street bets. >> Yeah. I mean, I think 50 years ago, even if everybody was average or somewhat the same, you didn't really care. You know, you're just kind of in your own little bubble. But these days, if you're average or homogeneous, then you're going to look at Tik Tok, you're going to look at Instagram, and everyone that's standing out online are these like huge outliers that are just, you know, living these glamorous lives. And then you're going to want to naturally just want to be part of that, right? Like, if you don't feel like you're standing out, then you you just feel like, oh, well, I'm just so normal. But that's completely fine. So, when it comes to building wealth, what do you think is the biggest reason that people feel held back? Do you think it's that they don't make enough money, >> they spend too much money, cost of living, things like healthare or housing, or bad investment decisions? Okay, I think ranked in order, number one is probably income. Number two, really close behind it is how much they spend. Bad investment decisions, I don't know. I don't see that many people I mean unless they're going for the get-rich quick stuff. I think that if you're just paying attention to good old standard S&P 500, I don't really think you can make too bad of a decision there. But usually it comes down to like their impulses are usually too bad. So like or you know they're too impulsive so they spend more than they should and they're just not saving enough. So and that could be combed by having a higher income. But really it just comes down to income and expenses. So what financial behavior does the most damage? What do you think? And then I'll give you my opinion because I think what you would say is spending. I would you know what it would be spending but I would say assuming I don't say spending is complacency. >> It's just feeling like I'm doing good enough not to try for something better or that things are lukewarm and they aren't bad and other people have it worse. But you know my situation's decent. It could be better but it's okay. And from that, you just kind of stay in that like middle ground where you're just kind of like treading water a little bit, but you're never going to go any more than that. >> I tend to agree. I think it's realistically spending. I don't think it's an income problem. I think it's a spending problem. And you can see this because people earning up to $150,000 a year are still paycheck to paycheck. No reason for them to be paycheck to paycheck. >> But if it's not spending, then realistically, I think it's an attention problem. >> I think it's lack of awareness. That's what I was going to say is lack of awareness to what is going on in their financial life. >> You cannot improve upon something if you aren't paying attention to it. If you're just ignorant to it, then it's just going to fester and spiral down. >> I use this analogy all the time, which is like if you're trying to lose weight, you're going to weigh yourself, right? You're going to go to the gym, you're going to weigh yourself maybe once a week, once every two weeks, and you're kind of conscious of what your weight is and if what you're doing is reaching your goals or not. with finances, people just for some reason they have a blind spot and they just can't figure out how much they're spending. And it's hard to face how much you're spending too because it's kind of an embarrassing thing, especially if you feel like you spend money a little bit frivolous frivolously, right? What's really interesting is that you came in, by the way, exactly on time. >> I did. >> We were going to start at 11:00. You show up exactly at 11:00 and you said that on the way the cab driver only got paid $4 >> Mhm. for the trip from the Las Vegas strip to our studio here. And it's a decent drive. >> It's like a 25 minute drive. Sure. >> But $4, how do they get away with paying someone $4? And walk through the math and what this person should be doing instead of a $4 ride. Okay, so this person in particular was a really tough situation. Okay, this guy's 78 years old. He's a senior and he's just trying to make ends meet. He's driving for this cab company. He told me that the base fair is $5.50. 50, but immediately that goes to the taxi cab company, right? And so the on the remaining fair he gets 40% of it. So the fair was like 28 bucks. So right then and there that's $23 of an effective fair that he's going to get. Maybe 2250. 40% of that. What's that? About 8 bucks, 8.80, maybe 10. So he just drove me 25 minutes out of the strip. Now he has to drive back to the strip for more business. and he waited in the hotel line in the taxi stand line for about 10 10 15 minutes. So, right then and there he's making less than 10 bucks an hour if he's driving the cab. Now, the nice thing is he doesn't have to pay for maintenance on the car. I think he might have to pay for gas, but I don't think he has to pay for maintenance. Um, and he basically just gets to take that home. But in his sit situation, if he's making 10 bucks an hour as a cab driver at 78 years old, he might not have any other employable skills. And so, he might just have to be stuck in that situation. That's really tough. But are you saying for someone younger perhaps? >> I'm just thinking how is there not a better use of this person's time >> that could even be at like as a greeter somewhere or at any other >> business unless it's purely something where it's like that's a type of career where you could just clock in when you have some extra time. Yeah. >> Which might be the case. >> You know, we don't know him and we don't know what his situation is like. I mean >> uh but in that particular situation, I don't know what he should do. Maybe he should maybe he might need another job. I'm not sure. That's a really tough one. Do you think there's a chance he's lying for a tip, you know? [sighs and gasps] Of course there's a chance. That's a chance. But >> you cuz you left him a pretty good tip after I left him a $20 tip. But still, let's like I think that there is a chance, but then there's also like I believe in the good of humanity and I feel like he was a pretty honest person based on the 20 minutes that we shared together and we were talking for a little bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. Could he be lying? >> He did get 20 bucks out of you, though. >> He did, but he actually didn't. He was like, "You don't have to tip me." He's like, you know, I was like, "I'll just tip you 10 bucks." And he was like, "Oh, great. I'll be happy with that." And when I gave him So, so the fair was like $29. I gave him 40 at first. $29.50 or something, whatever it is. So, he he was effectively going to get a $10 tip and he was really happy with that. And I was like, "All right, let me just do you one better. Here, I have an extra 10." And he was elated. So, that just made his hour, which was nice. You know what's interesting is tips can absolutely be manipulated. Like I had I had a friend that worked at an ice cream shop and apparently when you scoop ice cream it can start to hurt your wrist if you do it for like 8 hour shifts like a few days in a row. And so what he would do is wear a brace on his wrist and when he would go to scoop the ice cream he'd be like and like the the customers would say oh is is your wrist hurting? What's going He's like yeah just you know a few shifts in a row and yeah it ends up hurting my my wrist and it's a little bit weak and oh but it's fine. It's fine. I'll be okay. And he said he noticed a significant jump in the amount of tips he received once he started wearing the brace on his wrist and acting like it hurt to scoop ice cream. >> I I believe that. I mean I mean hot girls get better tips as waitresses, right? In general and hostesses. >> I got another story for you. We knew someone who was driving for Uber >> and really friendly person and he would make conversation and in the conversation he would bring up that he's doing Uber >> to help pay for a future child and that him and his wife were saving up to have a child. >> The tips he got were insane. Like he was telling us people would tip him like $100. Oh my god. >> For just casual rides around town >> and he would just mention this. Now he was telling the truth. >> Yeah. But had he not said that, the tip would be substantially less. >> I'm I'm for that. I think, you know, don't hate the player, hit the game. I'm I'm fine with that. And, you know, if I overtip this cab driver today, then, you know, he got me. >> All of a sudden, next time you go to get ice cream, every single ice cream [laughter] scooter is just going to be wearing wrists and every single Uber driver is going to be preparing for a future family. Every single one. So, you mentioned you think that people are worse off today than they were 5 years ago or in 2020. I'm curious >> living wise. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm curious. Do you think that that trend is going to stay the same in 2030? Do you think that people are going to be even worse off than they are today? >> I put it at more than 50%, so maybe 60%. Yeah. They're probably even more worse off if the cost of living increases go the way that they're going and nothing gets changed with wages. >> So, you attribute it mostly to a cost of living. >> Yeah. I mean, grocery prices are way up. Energy prices are up. That's because of the war. But even even before then, energy prices were up. I mean, the inflation stuff from CO still was like 4% was the last one. But that obviously that had some energy, but still it's over 2%, right? >> Yeah. Even filling up the gas tank recently, it's now $6 a gallon at a lot of places. >> You drive a Tesla. >> I do. But I had to fill up another car. >> Okay. >> And I was paying six bucks a gallon for gas for the premium. >> Yeah. >> And it adds up fast. >> Adds up bad. >> So, what do you think is hurting people the most right now? Do you think it's inflation, housing, interest rates, or lifestyle creep? Now, really quick, everyone says that you need to be making content for your business, but no one tells you how to actually do that. Like, where do you even begin? And that's exactly why we've partnered with our friends at OpusClip. They just created Agent Opus, and it genuinely changes what's possible with content creation. Agent Opus is able to take your ideas and turn them into real, polished, social media ready videos. All you have to do is upload an audio file and it builds the video for you. There's no cameras, no editing software, no production team. Got a product or service you want to promote? Just drop in your audio file or script and Agent Opus handles all the rest. Text to video done. And I am not kidding when I say it actually looks really good. That's the thing. Most AI video tools feel clunky and robotic, but Agent Opus doesn't. The output is clean, professional, and something that you'd actually want to post. So, start making content for your business that actually works with agent opus. All you got to do is visit opus.proic to get started today. Again, that is opus.pro/ic or click the link down below in the description to get started. Enjoy. Uh, adds up fast. >> Adds up fast. >> So, what do you think is hurting people the most right now? Do you think it's inflation, housing, interest rates, or lifestyle creep? I think it depends where you go. In San Francisco, housing. San Francisco rents are crazy right now because of the AI boom and um a lot of people can't afford housing there because everyone that's coming there for rent is AI, right? And so they're getting this inflated salary or this not inflated but high for their for their um industry salary and the rental market there is small. So, I would say their housing, but I would say across the board probably inflation is is probably like I would rank that the highest. And inflation does include rent prices, too. >> That's crazy. I don't I just think that it's the cost of living. Like, I think that yes, the cost of living is increasing, but you can live elsewhere. Like, you can move and have cheaper housing. >> Easier said than done, though. If you have your whole community in one area, your family's there, your friends are there, it's hard just to pick up. And >> I don't I'm not saying like move to a different state. I'm just saying move into like a cheaper place and move in some roommates. Like I still live in a house with five people. I have four roommates, you know? I >> it's you can make living cheap. I could choose to live in Vegas and spend $10,000 a month on rent or I could choose to live in Vegas and spend $700 a month on rent >> if I'm renting out rooms. So like the way that I see it is yes the overall environment might get more difficult to live in. I 100% agree with that solutions >> but there are absolutely solutions and it's the problem will not get solved if you put the burden of pro solving the problem on other people or on the environment or on cost of living or inflation like that's just not going to solve the problem. I agree. It's not going to solve the problem. But I think you can still recognize like the reality that a lot of people are facing, which is like it is more expensive. >> For sure. But I would never I would never attribute it to the the number one problem that's facing people if they're dissatisfied with where they're at financially. >> Oh, well, if that's the question, then yeah, then they can make better choices, but or different choices to maybe save money. But still, I think that is the number one thing that affects everybody. Well, since so many people live paycheck to paycheck, including those making over 150, $200,000 a year, >> at what level is living paycheck to paycheck purely a spending problem? Probably over 150 200k a year. Yeah, at that point it is a spending problem because what is 150k a year after tax? Like take home like 10, you're bringing home 10k a month. Let's say your rent is 40% of that. So 4K a month, you got 6K left to work with. At that point, it's probably a spending problem. Unless you got a family of four. What would you say? >> Outside I think of New York and San Francisco I would say probably. >> Yeah. I'm also talking Yeah. Outside of New York and SF because I think in New York and SF 150 even in Seattle 150 is like or Austin 150 is >> maybe closer to the median. I would say really anything above like $90,000 a year, you should be able to save some extra cash. >> What about you, Jack? What do you think the threshold? >> I'm gonna get so much hate for what are you gonna say? $40,000 a year. Jack, >> I mean, it depends. So, like if you're living in a place like Las Vegas, like this is like an average cost of living city, I'm pretty sure. Like, in America, >> I'll go. Yeah. If I was if I was earning $50,000 a year, then I'm sure that I would somehow be able to find a way to save an addition like save $1,000 a month, $12,000 a year. I just think it's doable. I would just I would >> salary 50k a year. >> 50k a year. >> That's going to be 42 after tax. >> 42 after tax, 4,200 after tax. So that's 25%. >> So it's like it leaves me with 30k. So like my my rent would maybe be $1,000 a month. Like the rooms that are in my house are renting for like $750 to $1,000 a month. So let's just call it $800 on average. So then you you still have what would you still have? You'd still have $20,000 $20,000 a year to like spend on whatever. >> So like >> well then it's car >> and we're talking car insurance potentially gas maybe utilities. >> Okay. Car car insurance for the year. Let's just call it two grand, right? So you have $18,000. Then you have food. Let's just say $400 a month. So you're down to >> 400. It's not that much for food. I mean, maybe if you're doing like, you know, meal preps and costing. >> How much do you want to give for food? >> Probably 600 bucks a month for food. >> Okay. $600 a month for food, which I think is pretty high. >> But let's just say you're at 600. So that's what $7200 $7,000 per year. So what is the math now? We're down to like 10k after car insurance, after food. And then you just have any other entertainment, any other like random life expenses that seem to come up. That's always >> even even a plane ticket to see your family. >> I agree with you. But when I was making $50,000 a year, I was I was not doing those things. Like I was not spending money on entertainment because I think that like it's more important to be saving money and like focusing on increasing my income. And then once I was able to do that, then like maybe my my my tolerance for like or my bar where I set like I can afford these things is just a little bit higher. >> Here's the thing though. I think it's easier to do that when you're 20 or 21. Harder to do when you're like >> I agree with that 100%. >> Like 30 >> without question. If someone's 30, it's going to be tougher than if you're like just toughening it out at like 19 or 20. >> I agree. And if you run into like a crazy emergency expense, 3Gs >> that that could easily just take a dent savings, right? >> Yeah. But that's all the more reason to have a savings and to not spend it on things like going to the theater or like a subscription services or buy now pay later. I just think that 50k a long time ago would have given you a little bit more breathing room than that because right now it seems like 50k is really >> 100% but I just don't like saying online that >> you know you you have an excuse if you're making less than $90,000 a year to not be or to be paycheck to paycheck. Like I want people to think that they can not be paycheck to paycheck even at $50,000 a year. Like I want I want them to think that they can still make some compromises, make some sacrifices, and like decrease their entertainment budget by $100 a month to be able to save and invest that money for a rainy day or if an emergency happens. >> No, I agree. I think, you know, I've recently been interviewing a lot of my viewers because I have like this new show where we do like >> I review three viewers per episode and a lot of them are early 20s and they make 50 60k and they're saving 20 25%. So it is possible, but their conditions are also really good, right? they they maybe live with a couple roommates, they have really low expenses. That's that's pretty good. Or maybe they're just like still in school. So stuff like that. >> I agree. I just think that like online if you say that like oh like if you're making under $90,000 and you have a reason for not being patri is an easy opinion to take because people are going to be like oh yeah like you know I making $80,000 a year can't save and this guy just validated what I had to say. So like people are going to applaud you for that. But I would like it's it's it's a more dislikable opinion to have to say like, oh well, like you should be saving money even at $60,000 a year. Granted, this is assuming you have no kids, you know, like you don't have like some debilitating, you know, heart condition. >> Yeah, I think I agree. With good financial discipline and good habits, you can still make it. >> Yeah. >> So, what is technically the number one wealth killer? >> Technically, it's divorce. But >> is it really? >> Yeah. When I was like doing my research online, yeah, it's usually divorce. like how so? >> Uh well divorces are expensive. The divorce lawyers are expensive on its own. So I think the average divorce lawyer cost you like between 5 and 10k at least. And then um the splitting up of the assets usually a little bit rough. It's going to cost you a lot in terms of opportunity cost as well. So like let's say you had a joint investment account and now you have to split it. you're going to have to sell those sell those stocks or you might have to sell those stocks and then take those gains or you might have to restart investing. I thought now let's just say you have a joint investment account. Can't you just do an AATS transfer and then that person gets some of them without having to sell and then you keep the cost basis? >> Yeah, it's assuming both people want to hold the stock. But what if one person wants to sell it, right? And just wants >> then you can a cats out and then sell it probably. >> Yeah. Then to me that would just be their decision to sell. like they should have the the tax burden if they want to sell. >> I guess I've never been through a divorce, so I can't really speak on that, but in doing my research, divorce was was one of them. >> And what's the solution to that? Picking a better partner. I don't know. Picking the right partner or maybe asking the right questions before you get married. I don't know what the right questions are, Graham. Maybe you do. [laughter] I think it's just being upfront and transparent as early as possible, putting it all on the table, >> and then that's an easy out where, hey, if if this doesn't work for the other person, you tell them early. and then they know and they could find a partner who maybe the financially is more compatible. Yeah, I think that is a really big like rift for a lot of couples is the financial aspect side. Like a lot of couples just don't talk about it. And so you don't know what the other person has. You don't know what the other person's values around money is. And so that could be a big reason for financial or relationship problems. But I think the other wealth killer was cars. I mean, if that's what you want to talk about, >> what would you say are the biggest lies that people believe on all sides of the spectrum about money? >> I mean, we have such sim I think both of all of us have like these similar views on money. >> I don't think so. >> Really? >> I think I disagree with you, too. Yeah. I think I disagree with you guys. >> Just Graham and I. >> Yeah. Well, I think you guys probably agree a lot more. We're pretty loud. >> Yeah. But I would say I disagree with you guys. >> What do you disagree with the most? I would say I don't think you guys are frugal. I think you guys are cheap. [laughter] >> That's harsh. >> Why do you got to say you guys? >> Yeah. >> Well, this is >> Well, define cheap like uh like as because maybe we're doing this exercise yesterday, like as a percentage of your income, like how much you spend. >> It's funny. I don't see Humphrey as cheap at all. >> I splash around it sometimes. >> Yeah, Humphrey's balling. He brought two gold coins here. One of them's uh pretty pretty hefty. >> We're going to talk about them later. So, you think I'm cheap? I do. I think that you guys are both technically cheap. And it was interesting. So I found I I asked if there is a mathematical definition to cheap versus frugal as opposed to like a philosophical or psychological definition of it. And this is what I got. The mathematical definition of cheap would be minimizing costs even when the lost value exceeds the money saved. So, an example would be taking a 20 minute longer flight connection to save $300 is probably frugal. Taking a 10-hour longer itinerary to save $100 when you earn $200 an hour is probably cheap. That's such an extreme example that neither one of us would do that. It's that's an example. That's not like an example of a definition. >> Yeah. Give us an example of something that we do. >> You're just trying to say like we're just saving to save rather than saving >> based on anything. I I mean I would go by the definition minimizes costs even when the lost value exceeds the money. >> But your own definition >> that is my definition. I agree. Your definition is just >> well I think that there is like an actual value to money. Money is not good for the sake of it being money. Money is good for the things that money can do. And like money buys things like comfort. It buys things like freedom. So like there's value to money and freedom. And you can assign the the unit as like a dollar to tie to it. And so like if your comfort and freedom and time and stress are all worth this amount and money is worth this amount and you spend like let's say less money but all of like your stress and the stress goes up and your freedom goes down but like this unit is greater the unit of value lost >> is greater than the unit of money spent then I think that that is being cheap. You're just saying like the ways that we think about money perhaps, me and Graham, are just like a little like our framework's a little off. >> Yeah. So, here's here's an actual thing that actually might this might click with you, Graham. I would say Humphrey, you spend 1% of your withdrawal rate annually, right? That's what you're on track for right now personally. 1% of your withdrawal rate. >> Where did you get that from? Talked to him about it yesterday. Okay. Yeah. And you save 100% of your net business income >> currently. I'm saving Yeah. Close. Well, I reinvest in the business, but other than that, yeah, like net profit. Yes. >> Yeah. You save 100% of your net business income, right? So, like you're not spending that personally and you're spending 1% of your investment portfolio. So, like I would just say that there is no way that like if you're only spending 1% and from this 1% you're able to live the life that you're living, traveling, eating the food that you want to eat, doing the things, spending the money on personal things like you want to be spending it. If you bumped it up to two, realistically, the financial >> Yeah, my bottom line would probably be fine. >> It would nothing would change, but you have double the amount of options that you have right now. Like, there's no way that that that that's not being true. >> That's assuming that you double the spending, you double the options. You don't. >> Sure. But even if you 10% increase the options, I would say it's like you're not >> saying I could live a little and spend a little bit more. >> That's exactly right. Yeah. But I don't think Humphre is depriving himself of anything. I don't think he's in. >> Here's a great example. I'm going to Norway next week, right, with my girlfriend. And right now we have premium economy tickets. Okay. >> Love it. >> Premium economy. Great value. Now, lie flat seats are an extra $2,200 >> per ticket. >> Per ticket. >> Yeah, I agree. >> For 10 hours. >> Yep. >> And so in my head, I'm thinking $4,400. I would much rather have $4,400 and we can do whatever we want in Norway. We could go out to the finest restaurants, use that money there. But Jack is saying, "Well, you don't spend that much money anyway. you might as well just buy the $4,400 because you could do that and do all the cool stuff you want to do in Norway and your total portfolio or total investable assets are hardly going to change. So I kind of I can see his I can see his argument and personally I want the life flat seat but but you know it's it's like I agree with you. I agree with you. Premium economy to me is >> 80% of a first class ticket. >> I but value like how do you determine value of something? >> Like value to you is different than value to the market. >> Correct. >> Yeah. Because like if you have an abundance of a certain resource, then adding more of that resource to your life might not actually be very valuable. But if you don't have an abundance of something like a lifeling food you want to eat or let's say you want to go to the gym but you don't want to hire a personal trainer or health like you don't have an abundance of those things then you can sacrifice something that you are abundant in which is money cuz it's just a resource like people want to acquire money just for the sake of having more money and this drives me up at the wall. It makes no sense. You're saying oh yeah but I could spend $4,400 extra when I get to Norway on whatever I want. I'm like, "Dude, you are at the point right now where you're spending 1% of your withdrawal rate and saving 100% of your business profits. Like, why not both? You're not actually losing anything." If like if you get so excited, if you get so excited about the optics of spending $4,400 in Norway, spend $4,400 is so exciting to you, >> then like that just shows me that you can be allocating this thing that you are abundant with, which is money, better. I'm sure a lot of you guys feel the same, but it is so difficult to trust anything you see online. Every headline exists to just try to make you feel a certain way without even reading the story. And it's not just social media. Even real news outlets feel like they're picking a side before they've even told you what's actually happened. And that is the exact problem that our sponsor, Straight Arrow, is built to solve. No manipulation, no bias, no agenda, just the facts on the stories that actually affect your life. 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Six, seven reps in, it won't forget. Great timing though because AMP is actually sponsoring today's episode and they sent one over for our new warehouse gym. This is AMP, the smartest home gym on the market. Think of the cable setup you'd find at a commercial gym but in your house. It counts your reps, remembers your weights, and when you walk up and hit start, it's already loaded from your last session. All the guesswork is gone. You can run it in fixed mode for a standard cable feel or flip it to eccentric mode for extra resistance on the way down. Every fitness expert that we've had on the podcast says that time under tension is key and this gives you exactly that. It comes with a full set of attachments that lets you do over 500 movements. It's basically like having an entire gym but in the corner of your room. And if you don't know where to start, it picks a trainer, builds your plan, and tracks everything automatically. And you're not paying $100 an hour for a personal trainer. And on top of all of this, a white glove crew installs it. Ours was up and running in 30 minutes. And there's a 90-day free returns policy. Amp handles the whole pickup, but less than 1% of people send it back. So, that should tell you something. The link is down below in the description, guys. I could not recommend this equipment more. Check it out at amp.ai or also link down below in the description. Use code iced coffee for 10% off. It truly gets a great workout in. Thank you so much to AMP for sponsoring this episode. And back to the podcast then. Like, that just shows me that you can be allocating this thing that you are abundant with, which is money, better. Yeah, I think I think you really bring up like a good mental blind spot, which is like a lot of people treat different buckets of money differently, right? Like if we were to say, let's spend $4,400 on a nice mattress, you might not blink an eye, like, oh, that like that's a great investment, but then all of a sudden we're having this debate, $4,400 for 10 hours of flight time. Like, is that worth it? And I think that is a trait that I have inherited from my parents, which is like scarcity mindset. And we've talked about this before, probably on a podcast 5 years ago, but it's still hard to fight those feelings because you always feel like money could be better used elsewhere if if you don't feel like it's being best used, for example, in this lie flat seat. So, you're I'm always thinking about the deal. Am I getting a good deal? Is this worth the money? And that's kind of how I've operated my entire life. And probably Graham, that's how you do. >> And here's the thing, too. premium economy. You're at an age right now where premium economy is fantastic, but doing premium economy on a 10-hour 12-hour flight at 65 is going to be a much different experience. So, I'd say you while you still can, well, Jack can still live with roommates, we could probably say the same thing to Jack. Jack, you could move out and you could buy a baller mansion and like do this and that and all these things and get a car with longer range instead of having to charge when you drive a Ventura. Like all these things you could do. I will defend Jack a little bit here, which is that if I continue to think this way in terms of this mindset that I have, like I will not be able to switch it off. Like I'm already 38, so like by the time I'm 65, will I switch this off? Realistically, I don't think we would switch this off. >> Yeah. I I think it's a slow trickle. >> Yeah. And it's like it's hard to spend once you have if you're wired like that. >> Like I I did that basically going to Europe. I took premium economy there but did the first class going back >> and >> but he didn't want to like this was something that we had multiple conversations about. >> Oh yeah. I really didn't didn't want to but I but I justified it because I could plan out an entire video with >> justified it as a business expense. >> Yeah. And that was the only way I was able to get out that video is if I had my own space where I could like zone in, headphones in, and just focus nonstop without any distraction >> for like 10 hours straight. >> But I think that's a just that's like a justification, right? And so >> I don't need I wouldn't have done it without >> I agree that you wouldn't have done it, but just because like that doesn't necessarily make you right because you did it and you were successful in that way. I think that as your friend, I would I would encourage you to value your comfort like just a little bit more. >> But but the problem is I am comfortable in premium economy. I'm not uncomfort. >> What about like it seemed like Macy posted a couple of pictures on her on her Instagram with premium >> and she was very excited about I've never seen her post premium economy on her story, but she posted the life flat. She posted the life flats on her story. >> She did when we went to Japan. The premium economy is a fantastic seat. She is just fine with premium economy. But this is all to say that I think that money for the sake of money is it's it's it's a trap. I would say that is a lie about money that everyone believes. Like whether you're wealthy or whether you're poor, it's like if someone who's broke wants to get more money, I would love to ask them why do you want more money? Like what is it that you would like that you don't have right now? And if they say, "Oh, well, I want to go and eat at a steakhouse and I want to have a nicer car and I want to like move into this house." I'd be like, "Okay, which car? Like which steakhouse? Which house do you want to move into?" And I'm like, great. Like, let's figure out I I agree with all this. Like, let's figure out a way that you can do that and I want that for you. But if I asked Graham, why does he want more money? Like, he can't come up like try to answer what do you want? >> That house I want >> and you can't afford that right now. >> Couldn't I would be I would be completely stressed out of my mind. >> That's Yeah, but you're going to be stressed out of your mind in any environment. Whether you had twice the amount of money, you would still be stressed. >> I would not. I would not. There's a there's a price point right now where if I bought in that price point and I found a a good deal in that range, I wouldn't be stressing about it at all. >> But I think that your perspective on it is a little bit too far pushed out of the norm. Like if you ask everybody else that is aware of your financials, Jason Oen, you said, "Oh, I wouldn't even think about it. I'd buy it." >> That dude is spending $500,000 on a jersey, >> but it looks like he's living an amazing life. It looks like he's loving life and he's making a ton of money. Would it be different if one day I didn't want like you know a family? He he is just Jason. He is just chilling. It's just him. He doesn't have to worry about taking care of anyone. He is just living life and everything he has at this is just a bonus. >> Well, you guys have interviewed a lot of guests and some of the guests are reckless with their spending. Like I think I watched that Togei one or maybe some other >> Togei for sure. Togei. >> So like is there a balance here? Like >> 100%. I'm just saying that I think Togei is extreme in the same way that I think >> Graham is extreme. >> You and Graham are extreme. Graham spends.5% of his portfolio and saves 100% of his net business income. That's insane to me. That makes no sense. >> Maybe it's more than that. I don't know what the what the percentage is. Yeah. So, how how do we change, Jack? How do we do it? >> I don't know. >> I don't know how to change like like for me, I think like my entire life, I always ask myself the question of like, why am I doing something? And if I can't come up with a good answer, then I have zero motivation. Maybe it's an ADHD thing. Like ADHD is essentially like your dopamine receptors are bad. Dopamine is motivation. It's not necessarily happiness. Although they sometimes feel like the same thing. So like if I can't motivate myself to do something. The only way I can get motivation is if I have a good answer of why I'm doing it, I'm not going to do it. And the same thing applies to everything I do. Like if I want to make more money, even if it's like doing consulting and maybe the rate is like something incredible that like, oh, I could go buy this and I could buy this and I've wanted this. Like if I just don't want to do it, I I I don't know. I I can't motivate myself to do something just for the sake of doing it. Like I want to have a reason for everything that I do. It's like being intentional about things. Also, math, like math is a very very easy justificator or just justifier for me spending money on things. It's very easy. Like I will spend $100 to save an hour of my time. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're putting math though above behavior. And as Dave Ramsey would say, I think behavior always trumps math every single time. People default to their behavior. >> Yeah. But like what if your behavior is rooted in math? Well, that's you then. There you go, Jack. There's there's your answer. But if you talk to most people, it's going to be a behavior. It's going to be something. >> I think that is inherited from your parents. I think it's just that's just how it is with money at least. >> I think that if you were talking to a loved one, the rules that you would give to them are different than the rules that you apply for yourself. >> But I think that's true with a lot of things, right? Like we're always good at giving advice but not taking our own. Uh what were your parents like in terms of spending money? >> Very frugal. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah. So like we grew up in a you know middle class family and then I got older and I realized okay we were probably upper middle class not upper class but upper middle class but we never went on any vacations and the few vacations that we did go on were paid for by other people and the only vacations we did were camping trips. >> Oh. >> So like I never had I didn't get an iPhone until super super super late in life. I never had like the newest gaming console. Like I always like was far behind the curve. And so like growing up with very frugal parents I realized okay like I need to figure out how to make money. so I can afford the things I want to afford. And I grew up very frugally because of them. Like I repeated that. But then I asked my dad on this drive. We were going to go play pickle ball and I asked him, "Hey dad, like if you could go back in time and change anything, what would you have done?" He said, "Well, maybe I would have started living a little bit earlier." Living a little sooner. >> Was money a big topic for you guys growing up or >> No, we wouldn't really talk about it. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah. It was just you had to like formulate your own thoughts about money probably when you're >> Yeah. But like but I I think that like I I realized that I can't just continue saving money for the sake of money. Like I don't like looking at a bank account and just seeing it go up. That's not exciting for me. >> Meanwhile, Jack, you're showing me your numbers. Be like, "Yo, I just took this." [laughter] >> Yeah. Like that. That's cool. But it's cool because it's it's not cool when the S&P 500 goes up and I own S&P 500. I like it if I'm like, I want to start selling options on this stock and then I see that that strategy worked out. It's like, yeah, it's like it's growth. It's something that's experimental. That's fun. >> Well, see, I would I want Okay, so now I want to ask the same question to Graham, which is that did your parents stress money growing up? Because maybe this is where we are very similar. My dad was always talking about money. Like he would not like that was his favorite time. >> No, my parents never talked about money. Um and I didn't uh I was just always inherently a saver of of everything. Like my parents did go through money problems, but I was not aware of it. Like you would have no idea as like a five or six. >> So when you wanted like a video game or something when you were 10, what what would you do? Did you say mom I want this? Usually they would say you have to like wait for Christmas or like oh your birthday's in a few months and you'll have to wait for then. But it was all like I never wanted anything expensive. It was maybe like a Game Boy >> or like like a new a Nintendo 64 game. They were like 60 bucks and it was always like oh we'll wait for Christmas or maybe your grandma will buy that for you. Like >> so you kind of learn delayed gratification at a young age. I like that. >> Yeah certainly. But by the time I figured out they had, you know, some money problems, like I was like 15, 16, 17, eight. And by then my habits were already like very frugal. I was just naturally just wired, I think, to like accumulate and save. >> I was a squirrel in a past life and just like finding the nuts and just burying them away. >> He loves nuts. >> He really loves about those those nuts. >> You got to edit a squirrel in your face right now. That's be funny. But I was always a saver. Like I I remember just getting uh birthday money, >> Christmas money, like just things like this. And I wouldn't spend it. I would keep it in an envelope >> uh on like a dresser cabinet and I would just just keep adding. I like adding to it. >> I think some people are wired to save >> and some people are wired to spend. And >> I don't know what you are. You're kind of like in the middle. You're a weird hybrid. You're a mutant. >> I would say I felt like I was wired to like to save, but then I just sort of changed because I realized I wasn't very happy doing that. And yes, I still save and I save very aggressively, but I'm not going to ever hesitate at something that would like make my life a little bit more comfortable when the math makes sense. >> Okay. >> And you? >> Oh, I'm definitely wired as a saver. >> And are you happy with that? >> Uh, so far I've lived a pretty happy life, but yeah, I think to your point, I could live a little bit more for sure. Like I was talking to my girlfriend about what you said last night and she was like, "You do whatever you want to do." But still, it's like, you know, I just want to be responsible with the money cuz it's like, I don't know. She's like, "You do whatever you want to, but those lie flat seats sound [laughter] awesome." >> I as like a philosophical argument, I think that being a good steward of money is to like be intentional about it. And I think that it's unconscious behavior. I think it's it lacks intentionality to just say every dollar that I get, I'm immediately going to throw into this index fund past a certain point. Obviously, this like this conversation does not apply to many people. It's like if you are if you are a crazy spender then you should be more intentional about your money. If you are a crazy saver you should be more intentional about you know >> interesting uh in the index group there's a link down below in the description. It's a group of like 30 highle entrepreneurs business owners someone provided and I'll do a shout out here his spending fund sheet. >> Oh yeah I like that. It was really interesting and it was almost a tax bracket of how much you could spend guilt-free, guaranteed, and the money comes off the top into an account that's purposely meant to spend. And obviously, if you don't spend at all, it rolls over to the next year, but it's money specifically just earmarked for whatever. >> And it was interesting, but like up to the first $150,000, it was like 5%. Mhm. >> And then from $150 to $500,000 of income, it went to like 10%. And then incrementally and then like above, you know, a million a year, it was 25%. And just kept going up all the way to 95%. So everything earned above X amount. 95% of that is meant for fun. It's like a bonus, like we don't need that much more, so we may as well just enjoy it. I thought that was quite interesting and that might be a good way to go about it is just to say hey based on a percentage 3% no matter what I'm putting it aside or 5% 10% whatever it might be I got to find a way to spend that. >> Yeah. And I talked to a lot of people that have the same save regime that we do and that's kind of what I tell them too is like set aside 5% of your paycheck every month and just be like that's the money you can spend. And so maybe I should do that. I should tell all of them. >> Maybe I save aside 0%. I should do that. >> I'm sorry guys. I'm sorry. It's just it's unconscious. So, what do you think is the best way to save money? >> Tracking, automating. Tracking and automating. That's what I would do. >> How do you track and automate >> in So, so I track everything manually cuz I'm OCD about it. >> But every expense I log in an app uh especially discretionary expenses. So, that goes into my spending tracker app and I've had it since 2014. I've tracked every expense since 2014. And then at the end of every month, I put that into a spreadsheet and I do all my categories. I just kind of see how the trends go in terms of discretionary spending. Uh, and I have a sheet for every year. So, 2026, 2025, all the way to 201 like 14. And so, that's how I track my expenses. And that's what got me in a great place of saving initially in 2014. I just haven't stopped because it's now a habit. >> May I provide a piece of unsolicited advice? >> You have already done a lot. >> I think I found a way for you to spend some money. A bookkeeper. >> Ah, I have a bookkeeper. >> Oh, but they don't do that for you. uh not my personal expenses. >> Some of this though is important psychologically that you go through your own expenses. >> Yeah. >> Like it's it's like trying to outsource uh you know uh tracking your meals throughout the day. It's like something that you need to be made aware of to make the decisions that help you long term. I would argue I've probably overdone it at this point. You know, 2014 till now is 12 years. I probably had overdone it after 4 years to be honest. But at that point, I was like, well, I'm just I'm so addicted to this. Or not really addicted, it's such an ingrained habit that I'm just doing it. And I like seeing my spreadsheet. So that's also part of it. >> What do you get from it? What what does that tell you? What do you >> perspective? I love perspective. So like anytime I'm feeling bad about my financial situation or where I'm at, where I'm at in life, I look at this sheet and I'm like, oh, like 5 years ago, me would have been really happy with where I am today. And sometimes that gives you some perspective and some pauses like, oh, you're actually you're doing good. You're doing well. You're like progressing. And you know, I even do that with my YouTube stats. So like I have a spreadsheet from like 2021 of like all the videos we posted, how many views they got after 30 days, 7 days, 24 hours. I'm looking at this, I'm like, "Okay, well the floor of views is going up." So back in 2021, maybe I got 10,000 views after 30 days. And now it's like 130,000. I'm like, "Oh, this looks great." So every time I think I'm failing at something, I can look at this sheet and it's like, "Oh, you know, you're you're not doing too bad." Why do you think that you're failing at things? I don't know. I have this constant stress cloud above my head thinking like >> I'm not doing enough or like doing doing well enough or I kind of I kind of really like working too. I have the like this work ethic of always I have like this this desire to keep going. >> Um probably comparison too like comparison is a thief of joy but sometimes I look at what other creators are doing or what other successful people are doing or stuff like that and I'm like dang why can't that be me? that I already have a great life. So, it's like ah I I could use some more of Jack. Jack. I need more Jack in my life. >> Would you say that you were wealthy? >> No. Half the time maybe. H >> half. So, you don't have a resolute answer. It's >> No, I don't have a resolute answer. I don't think I'm wealthy. >> If someone else had your exact financials, would you call them wealthy? >> Income? >> I'd say they're wealthy or doing very well. Yeah, sure. But I do not feel wealthy. And Graham, do you feel wealthy? >> No. The answer is always [laughter] the the answer to for feeling wealthy is always double from what you currently have. Is technically when people say they feel wealthy and it's always double. >> But shouldn't that tell you something? Like isn't there something to be drawn from that? >> You know what it is? I think it's just humility. I think as soon as you say, "Yeah, I feel wealthy." It's just an ego thing. It's not it's not about expressing this to a million people, but it's about feeling happy and comfortable. >> I don't know, man. I just think there's so much value in a you know, a dollar that uh >> you you just got to be >> I feel wealthy in time right now, which I think is is good, which is like in in the flexibility of my time, the choices I make with my time, and I think that's the ultimate goal anyway. So, in terms of that, yeah, I think I've already kind of won the game there. But in terms of like monetary value, I feel like maybe not as wealthy as other people, but maybe their time isn't as free. >> Do you have any tips or like secrets for saving money that have worked really well for you? >> I used to uh put like cash in an envelope like on a monthly basis and just like you know like extra cash that I that I would have I just put it in an envelope and just kind of put it away and just out of sight, out of mind. And then at the end of like, you know, six months, you look at this envelope and it's got like 800 or 10, you know, $1,000. It's really nice. Where do you get cash? Like I just don't see cash. >> I got $600 on me right now. I love cash. >> Why do you keep cash? >> I don't know. I I was always taught that like a gentleman should have have cash just for like opport, you know, like random opportunities. >> Opportunities. I thought you were going to say like, oh, for like tipping people out or for like >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean by opportunities. like tipping people out or like >> oh it's not like a cutting a deal somewhere or like you know some sometimes you're in Chinatown and they take cash only or like last night we went to a Takaria cash only right >> and debit >> and debit but still like I had cash even if we were screwed >> so if someone's dissatisfied with where they're at financially and maybe it's their spending problem let's let's say realistically if you're listening and you're dissatisfied with where you're at financially let's all agree it's probably a spending problem 80% of the time it's a spending problem 20% an income problem >> if you're one of these 80% what would you recommend they use for payments? Should they pay for everything with a credit card, debit card, cash, buy now, pay later? What would you recommend them to pay for things? >> Well, as a as a blanket statement, yeah, debit or cash. That's a blanket statement for everybody. Obviously, every everyone's different. I'm not going to say everyone should use a credit card and get that 2% cash back because really, if you have a spending problem, that 2% isn't going to make a big difference, right? Is this a good strategy? Like, should people employ actually going back and paying in cash? I mean, if it physically pains you to give that cash up, then yeah, or debit at least, so that you can't overspend. Yeah, >> I tend to agree with that. The studies show that people are more willing to spend money if it's on a credit card than they will be if it's actually with like physical cash or on a debit card. >> Or these days, it's tap to pay, so it's even worse. >> Yeah. >> Because it doesn't even feel like you're spending money. And I've spent, you know, a day's worth of of transactions once. I'm like, I don't even remember these because you just >> pretty soon it's all going to be AI for spending. You're just going to be able to walk in, take something off the shelf, put it in a cart, walk out. There's going to be no tap to pay, no credit card. >> That's what Amazon tried to do. But remember, it was just like people watching the groceries, the grocery shoppers from like another country >> for now. For now, but eventually it's going to get good enough, I believe it, where they're going to make it so seamless. >> You're just going to look at your statement and be like, "How did I spend $800 today?" Like, what? But you just like picking things and walking around with them and then that's it. >> The obstacle to spend has drastically decreased. I was in a Uniqlo in Japan. You go and you get this basket, throw a bunch of clothes in and at checkout you literally just plop the basket on this thing like on this saucer and it reads all of the tags in the basket and it's just like here you go. Tap the thing and then you pay. And I spent like $100. I didn't even need to like get the thing scanned. I didn't need to talk to an attendant. I didn't need to do any of that. I just dropped my basket in the thing. It scanned it immediately. Just tapped, walked out. >> Yeah, that's crazy. >> It takes like a minute to leave the store after you've picked out your things before you've paid. It's crazy. >> So, yeah, I would say that cash. Spend with cash. >> If people were to walk away from this podcast with one idea, what would it be? >> They could categorize every single thing they want to spend money on and add 20% to what they are currently spending on those things. So let's say you you put in an Excel spreadsheet, you write down rent, food, transportation, recreation, whatever it is, you have that in column. Add 20% or even up to 50% and just total how much you would need. It's usually a lot less than than you would think. And so like that's an experiment that I challenge a lot of people to do, which is like, oh, give me an idea of your annual expenses for your like not your dream life, but like your target life, like where you would like to be, and then give me uh uh basically the same column of of your dream life. You know, I want to spend from $3,000 a month in rent to $5,000 a month in rent or $8,000 a month in rent. And do that for every single category. It's usually a lot less than you would think. And I think that helps a lot of people understand like they don't have to swing for the fences or like do the yellow sports betting in order to get there. They can do it with discipline and investing. And maybe I can take some of that own medicine myself. >> How often do you see people trying to look rich in San Francisco? Not often. In fact, it's the opposite there. You want to look poor. The more the poorer you look in San Francisco, the richer you are, which is the [laughter] so messed up, but it's absolutely true. Like I've seen some people looking like slobs and they've got like 20 billion dollars. >> You know, I saw this funny chart. It was a bell curve and instead of the like the left side was just someone looking homeless >> and then it was the guy with the Lambo and the suit and then it went down to the billionaires and it was like the homeless again. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think there's a famous tweet. It's like the five levels of wealth and you know it's like level one you have a Timex, level two you have I don't know what it is like an Omega, level three Rolex, level four PC Philippe, level five Apple Watch, you know, it's like it's just like that. So I agree. I think it's such a power move to be able to walk in anywhere with sweatpants and a just kind of raggedy t-shirt. >> Yeah, sometimes the sweatpants with the raggedy t-shirt and holes, those guys have a lot of >> Why don't you have a raggedy Do you feel like you're not there yet? What do you mean a raggedy t-shirt? Yeah, the thing that you just said. >> You should see Yeah, dude. You should see me when I'm not going and filming a podcast. Usually when I'm coming in here, we're filming. >> I've seen you before. Like when I lived with you. I saw you when you I feel like Okay. You have that one. You know what's hilarious? Actually, oh man. You're probably not going to be okay with me doing this, but I >> to me I wouldn't even >> You're not going to be okay with me saying or doing this, but we were in LA for an index meeting and you were reaching to the back of the car to grab something and your shirt was kind of cropped and it and it came up a little bit. is going to hate this. >> And uh and your underwear was peeking out from your pants and your underwear had a gaping hole about this big on it. >> And and I couldn't believe it. And I actually took a picture. So like he and it's like he was trying to flaunt it because he was re I don't know why he was reaching in the back of the car for as long as he was, but he was. And I I was able to get my phone out and take a picture because he had a huge hole in his and like dude and and this is what I said. I literally said, "Hey, Graham, like let's be honest, cheap, not frugal, but you are wearing underwear with huge holes in it. Dude, what are you your functional? It still works. >> It's not functional, bro. It's you're like your naked butt is touching your pants. >> Naked. It was a whole like >> It's not Let's refer to the picture, dude. Yeah, it's maybe this big on an iPhone." Like, yeah. So, like realistic. And you know what I said? I was like, "Dude, I'm going to buy you some new underwear." And so, I texted I texted I know. I texted our contractor. I was like, "Hey, can you run out to like Costco to get some new underwear?" They didn't have like extra small or whatever I thought your size was. [laughter] So, so I I swear, no, it's not messed up cuz he is extra. But I I I did ask I was like, "Can you" And I was like I was like, "I'll pay for it." Cuz I I was trying to buy you underwear to show you like, "Dude, you should not be wearing underwear with huge holes in." So, he's talking a big game. I never got the >> They didn't have an extra small. >> Somebody send Graham some underwear. >> I There's a very specific underwear I like. It's the Kirkland Signature Premium Whatever. >> I want the same one you have, though. It's not the ones that I personally, you know, took off my body, you know, but >> I used to wear holes with uh shirts with holes in them, too, like undershirts, like when I was in high school. And uh yeah, I had a a close girlfriend of mine tell me like, "That's not cool." I'm like, "You you can't do that." >> And how did that feel? >> I was like, "Thank you." I >> So, you were receptive to >> Yeah, I needed that. Yeah. >> Would you wear underwear with holes in it? >> No. No hole. >> It's It's functional, dude. I stop I stop insurance if they get a little shrunk. I just don't like >> How many holes does your underwear need until you determine it is not functional? >> When it's when it's like when it's unusable. >> When it's more than 50% holes than actual fabric. >> Yeah, I would say is a good probably 35. You got to cut it off. >> So, if it's a tiny hole, you're okay with it. Do you think there's a good way for people to look rich for cheap? >> Maybe just the way they carry themselves. I mean, you can get a lot you can get away with a lot of stuff. You just carry yourself like you you look rich. Yeah. So, that's the cheapest way. You just look like you belong there. >> I love these videos. I see them all the time of like five cars to get under $30,000 that make you look rich. >> And you get you get served those videos. I get those >> all the time. And it's like an old Mercedes 500 SL. >> Yeah. Uh, or you could get like a Maserati used. >> Oh, yeah. Those depreciate like crazy. >> Older Aston Martins. >> Good prices. Older BMWs. >> Great. And then, uh, in terms of like clothing, a lot of it's just like getting cheap clothes that you could tailor a little bit. >> Yeah. Well tailored clothes. Yeah. Sometimes like someone's wearing a welltailored shirt, I can't tell if it's Laurel Piana or whatever the, you know, just like a really cheap brand that's looks good. >> Yeah. That's funny. Mercedes S-Classes, too. They depreciate pretty well. >> Part of me is so tempted just to buy one. Yeah, >> cuz I see them on Facebook Marketplace and some of them I see 18 to $22,000, >> but no one that's watching this podcast wants to look rich. They just want to be rich. >> It's tempting for me to want that S-Class Mercedes because they're like 20 grand and these cars were like 150,000 new. >> Yeah. >> And they look pretty good and it's like you're driving around an S-Class. >> That's pretty for 20 grand. How many cars do you have? Do you want people to know that you look that you are rich? How many how many do you have? That's the thing. He thinks that because like the market says something is worth 20 grand that like it's worth 20 grand to him. But I'm like, dude, you don't you don't touch a lot. >> 75% of your cars >> for for 20 you would not have a place to park it. You'd be asking if you could park it in my space. >> Graham's a car guy. >> My space. >> And you've always been a car guy. >> Yeah. I like He has been a car guy. Yeah, that's true. >> Yeah. >> So, if you say that people tune into this episode not because they want to look rich, but because they want to be rich, let's talk about the ways that people can actually be rich in 2026. What are the best things that someone could do if you're talking to someone 18 to 35, >> they got some time on their hands, maybe they're working a job part-time. Between the podcast and all of the different businesses we run, I was seeing a lot of very sensitive personal information of me being leaked online to websites I have never even heard of. It's honestly scary how much data these companies have on you without you even knowing it until it's too late. 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So, I'd say like if you're young and you're like looking for something to look to do on the side, you want to build some sort of skill that can pay you well in the marketplace, coding, you could do you could do podcast or content, but that's a lot harder. That, you know, we've we've acknowledged that that's a lot harder these days because of the saturation, but you need some sort of skill that commands a lot of money in the market, which means that it has to make a lot of money somewhere down the line in the whole life cycle of whatever you're doing, right? >> What do you think of becoming an AI consultant? We've had a few people on the podcast who say you could make 8 to10,000 a month becoming an AI consultant setting up processes systems for businesses. >> I agree. I think that's a that's like a huge asymmetry right now, right? Just like if you were joining Tik Tok in 2019, there were no there were hardly any creators on there, right? So there's this mismatch in the market. You have all these people wanting to watch Tik Tok in 2019, not a lot of creators. So immediately you just get all this demand. Same thing with small businesses. They're not on AI. Like these these are mom and pop shops. So if you're like the AI consultant and you can AIify their business, then great. Like property management companies could probably use an AI person. Yeah. >> And a lot of that stuff can be automated or agentic. How often are side hustles worth it? If they pay you more than your hourly rate, I think they are worth it. So let's say you make 25 bucks an hour and you can do a side hustle that pays you 35. I think it's worth it, right? Right? Or or you're flipping stuff on Facebook Marketplace and maybe you make a hundred bucks for 3 hours work, 33 bucks an hour. I still think that's worth it because it's maybe fun for you too, right? So it also depends on how fun it is. What do you think? >> Generally not worth it. Okay. Why? >> I think you get way more value doing what you're already doing, but to a better degree. And that's even if you can pick up extra hours at the job you already have, I think that would yield probably a better result. And I think even if you were to work harder without compensation early on, I think you'll see a better long-term outlook. >> Okay. What if you're a server at like Applebee's and you want you can either pick up more hours for 20 bucks, 20 bucks an hour, or you can do a side hustle. I would say the side hustle needs to then be a hobby or something that you would be doing regardless that hopefully makes money >> or something that you're uniquely good at. >> Okay. I think most people have something that they're just better than average at. Like Jack for instance [clears throat] >> would do really well as a as a side hustle charging for pickle ball lessons. Like that's one of the things like if he was just like just a random guy or whatever. You I think you would do really well and all these like 70 yearear-olds who want to play pickle ball hire Jack at like 50 bucks an hour to teach them how to play and strategy. I think you would do really well. >> If you want pickle ball lessons in Las Vegas, you know where to find me. Instagram link down below. JLS LB Y. Which side hustles are not worth it? >> Drop shipping. [laughter] Is that a side hustle? >> Drop shipping. Day trading. >> Anything where you can lose money. I think yes. >> But you would say something like Turo might be worth it or Uber might be worth it. Like I would argue in a lot of those times it's probably not worth it when you account for depreciation, some of the work involved. >> Yeah, Uber's tough because you have to figure out what your effective hours, you know, dollars per hour are after depreciation and gas and all that stuff. So yeah, I think I think maybe Uber is not worth it, but anything that scalable. >> Yeah, anything that's not scalable or like doesn't or like makes you more tired for your main hustle where you're not performing as good. So like an example would be in Vegas, it's 100° out. If you're powerwashing sidewalks, you're going to be tired for your job later. It's just it's it's 100° out. How are you not going to be tired? I think that would affect your main job, right? So at that point, probably not something like that. Now, speaking of cars, with car payments hitting a record high, why do you think so many people are willing to go broke for their car? >> Well, median prices of cars have gone up by a lot. So, like that's that's definitely number one. Number two, probably just social social status and looks. I'm I'm guessing it's probably a looks maxing thing. >> Like, if you want to show up to your office and you're driving a beater, like that doesn't look optically as good. But if you're showing up in like the newest Subaru, which could could run you 50K these days, MSRP, >> like that car payments can be high. So, it also depends on their interest rate, right? Interest rates are really high right now. >> And their term >> I have a theory that housing has gotten so unaffordable that a lot of people have just said, I'm never going to be able to afford a house, but I could buy this really cool car. I agree. >> And now that's within reach. Or I could buy this really cool card or this collectible or this thing or this watch. I could afford all these things but not the house. So, I may as well just kind of get what's in reach. >> You think it's status or you think it's within reach stuff? >> I think it's within reach, but I also think it's a status thing. >> Yeah. >> But I think mostly because lending standards for cars are like just it's wild. >> Yeah. >> What they can approve you for >> and they don't have as strict underwriting requirements as a house does. >> That's right. With a house, they have very strict underwriting requirements. Right. You you need to be you you need to have like a certain debt to income ratio. But with a car, it's like whatever. It's like, "Oh, you got good credit here. Here's a loan." >> I love these videos. I also get these on Instagram of the car dealer. >> Uh >> Oh, yeah. When they go and they're like, "What's your car payment?" >> No. No. It's the deal. It's a dealer. >> Yeah. We just got this person a new Dodge Challenger. You will not believe the deal that they got. They got a a purchase price $45,000, 0% down, 35% interest with monthly payments of $1,000 for the next seven years. >> Yeah. They don't ever say the interest, but it's always like Yeah. zero down, >> no money down, no credit, and and the loan term is like 20 years. >> Yeah. >> But and then you see this this guy is probably shouldn't be driving a Corvette driving a brand new Corvette. >> Yeah. >> Like a very nice one, too. >> Yeah. >> Or or it's like or it's like a brand new Mercedes SUV. >> Sure. Yeah. >> And you know, >> but those people can't afford a house in any market. Like even if housing was more affordable, they would still not be able to afford a house. I would heir a little bit more on the side of like, hey, it's marketing, it's consumerism, and a lot of people want things because they're told they should want it or because people that they're around also want the same thing. >> And so, like, a lot of it's hobby hopping and and >> yes, people may be buying cars cuz they can't afford the house that they would have been otherwise able to afford, but realistically, they're just overspending. >> What car purchase immediately tells you that someone's bad with money? Maybe like a Dodge Hellcat. >> Don't those those are like the number one repo car, right? I think they're [laughter] the number one repossessed car or the most definitely stolen. It might be the most stolen. I feel like it's a Challenger or like a Charger. There's one of those. It's It's a Dodge of some sort usually. >> Yeah. >> The thing is like if here's an interesting thoughtprovoking thing you say, Graham, that people are buying cars because they cannot afford houses. But the same people that are buying cars because they can't afford houses are not able to afford the cars that they're buying. Like this is >> But they're able to get it. They're not even able to get the house. That's a good point because otherwise they would just get the house. >> They're able to sneak their way into >> but also if they were to sneak their way into the house then they would be doomed just as just the same >> cuz they stretching for something that they shouldn't be >> stretching probably retain more value than the car would. >> That's true. That's true. >> Car would be worth a lot less. When do you think it's worth it to buy versus lease a car? Buying is almost always better than leasing in my opinion financially, but people have different priorities or people might only want the car for two years because of business reasons or whatever it may be or they can write right off the lease payments or uh they don't like maintenance so they want the newest newest car so they can have maintenance covered under the warranty. Sure, I get that. But I think in terms of just financially, yeah, buying a car is the cheapest way. There was a moment I was so close to leasing a car. It was uh a year ago and it was a Tesla Model 3 when they had the promotional offer of like $349 a month >> zero down for like a brand new Tesla Model 3. And I was doing the math on this thinking how on earth >> does this make financial sense because buying the car you would lose more value than you just paying the lease. And the reason they were able to get it down so much is that they were pushing inventory out, >> getting rid of some of the old stock for the newer cars and throwing in that $7,500 tax credit. >> That's how and then as soon as that went away Yes. And so for a brief period of time, it was cheaper to lease a Tesla Model 3 than buying one. >> I was also taught by uh an ex car dealer. She used to run the McLaren dealership. She just told me on the side, you should probably lease these. And I think that was just because they're super cars. They depreciate quite quickly and you're probably not going to want to drive it for longer than 5 10 years. Just lease it. >> Yeah. >> Does it ever make sense to get a loan on a car? >> Oh, like finance the car. >> Mhm. >> Uh depending on the interest rate. Yeah. >> If you can't purchase it outright. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what most people do. >> But does it make sense? Cuz what most people do does not make sense. >> I think as long as the monthly payment makes sense for your budget, then that's fine. But obviously, I would want you to pay off your car as quickly as you can, especially with interest rates right now being over 8%, 9% on some certain auto loans. Yeah. >> But wouldn't it make more sense for them to just buy something that they can afford in cash and then invest the difference? >> It would. Yeah, it would if if they're willing to, but sometimes like let's say your budget's 10K. Um, maybe you can't find a used car that you maybe the used car that you're probably going to get is like way too old or you want something in the middle there. For 10k you could find 2003 500 SL Mercedes. >> Not what you should be buy first. >> Probably not working. >> Yeah. >> 100,000 miles, but you look incredible. >> You're going to have to replace one small sprocket and it's going to cost you $700. >> What a sprocket. What's a sprocket? >> It's just like a term for like a just like >> It's like a car. >> Yeah, it's like a widget. >> It's a widget. >> Yeah. >> Car widget. >> Never heard of that before. >> It's just like It's >> I'm sure there's some mechanic. >> A spring. A widget. A sprocket. It's like just a small part of the car and it's going to cost you it's going to cost you up the wazoo. >> Yeah. >> You know what that is, too? Yeah. It's a >> lawsuit. Yeah. >> What What is the best car to buy in every income bracket? Let's say you're making $50,000 a year. What's the best car to buy? Probably like a Honda Civic. What about a $100,000 a year? >> Oh, at that point 100,000 maybe like a Toyota RAV 4. 200,000 a year. Something with a low depreciation rate. Let's think of that. Let's Let's think about that. $200,000 a year. A lot of Toyota SUVs. >> I think Audi's don't really >> They do. The Toyota has the strongest resale. A lot of the Toyota for Yeah. >> What about Tesla? I feel like Teslas are becoming more of a budget friendly car. >> They are very budget friendly. They're electric, which is nice. Um, >> and low maintenance and repair costs. >> That is true. And the insurance costs are very cheap if you get it through Tesla insurance. So, that's an option. >> But they do depreciate quite quickly, >> unless if you buy a used one. I I bought a new Tesla. Unfortunately, it was one of the very few financial mistakes I've ever made in my life. I'm kidding. It made so many really horrible financial mistakes, but it depreciated a lot very quickly. >> Yeah. And your resale value because Tesla is such a dynamic pricing company that you it could just go down like overnight, right? You've seen that a lot where they just like they just drop the price or they go up or they go up, which is crazy, right? Right. But you're kind of at the whim of Tesla. >> You know what's crazy? Right now, the Tesla Model X has gone up in value 30%. should have bought that instead of Ethereum. >> I couldn't kidding. That's a meme. It's a meme. It's a It's a meme on Twitter. It's like, oh, this went up 6%. Guess you're outperforming Ethereum for the past 10 years, you know? >> Yeah. I couldn't believe it. This is one of the stupid decisions, but I was tracking Tesla values for a year. And I was watching because here's the thing. I I don't need a new car, but I want to upgrade I want to upgrade my Tesla Model 3 at some point. An S or an X. I just want longer range. >> No Cybertruck. uh for the right deal I would. Okay. But I mostly in SRN X and I just want longer range. So I've been tracking the values and I was doing the math of like okay here's how much my car is depreciating in value. Here's how much these are coming down. This is coming down more. I don't need a new car. So I'm just going to wait. I sort of throwing some lowball offers on Facebook Marketplace just for fun. Like local cars >> there. >> Just for fun. Like you have no intention of buying these cars just >> No, he would buy them. Yeah. But he'd rather spend 90 hours of his time [laughter] across a year to try to save. I'll give you $400 on >> I'll give you an example. There was a 2022 Tesla Model S. They were asking like $43,000 for this car and I threw out $38,000 and I'll pick it up this weekend and they said no. And they ended up probably selling at like 40. But I thought, hey, at 38 I'd buy this car. So anyway, then Elon announces that they're going to stop making the Model X and the Model S. >> It goes up. >> And they shot up in value. The X went up 30%. The S went up about 15%. And the Model S Plaid went up about 20%. And I remember I had an opportunity to buy a 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid, moderate miles, uh $47,000. That same car today would probably be worth 58. Live and learn. >> You live and learn. >> So, what did you learn from that then? >> Maybe I should have just uh made more offers. >> More offers. So, it's about the offers. It's not about like Are you more mad that you lost out on the 30%. >> Or did you want the car? >> I think you you probably >> I wanted I was more mad about the 30%. But here's the other one. Here's the here's the other regret that I have. >> Do you see what I'm saying? >> I know. I don't like I'm saying the the loss is greater of like comfort, of security, of happiness. Like there's there is value to that. And you have abundance of money. There is no more value. I'm also happy with my car. Here's where I am upset. Elon Musk lowered the price of the Cybertruck to $59,000 >> and I was so close to pulling the trigger, but I was watching the Cybertruck values continuing to go down and I thought, well, in probably a year I could get the nonbudget version of the Cybertruck for the same price as the new lower-end one. And so I didn't do it. But and then of course he raises the price $10,000 and now all of them are selling for way more. >> So >> So what do you want at this exact moment? What I would love is a probably a 2023 late model or 2024 Tesla Model S or X with hardware 4 uh for a reasonable price. >> What is reasonable price? >> Uh market minus 15%. So if [laughter] >> Okay. So, if anyone in my audience has something that matches that criteria, preferably California, Arizona, Utah, or Nevada, >> and you would sell me a car like that, and you have that car that you're just trying to get rid of, but you don't want to deal with the hassle of selling it, putting it up on an auction site or anything, reach out to me with the email in the description. And the the benefit with me is that, you know, it's me. I'm not going to like uh scam you. Yeah. They're not going to pay you like drastically under market 15%. >> Could you flip it and sell it like at market to someone else in the day? Yes. But like you can sell it to >> a lot of people don't want a lot of people don't want to put their car on Facebook marketplace and deal with tire kickers. Deal with process >> and so at least give me the discount of just the convenience of going with me and I am your buyer. I will take great care of the car. I'm not a wholesaler. >> You'll sign a shirt too. >> I I'll sign a shirt. We'll hang out. I think that's a great value. And on top of that, you can also buy his used Model 3 from market plus 15%. [laughter] >> It does come with full self-driving >> famous Graham Stefen car. He's literally willing to meet with some dude off Facebook Marketplace and hang out with him for an hour and a half to save $1,500. >> Graham is just StubHub. You're StubHub. Basically, you get the 15% premium on the sale, but you want the 15% discount on the buy. >> You make money in the spread. [laughter] Yeah, that's you. You're stubb. >> I would sell my Model 3 for the right price though. >> For the right price. [laughter] >> But it comes >> What is the right price? What do you think you're going to describe what exactly is your >> So I almost I almost sold my Model 3. Um and someone's going to pay $20,000 for it. >> How is it worth 20,000? Right. So explain what is your Model 3? What year? How many miles? >> It's a 2019 55,000 mi on it. Uh with full self-driving. Uh it is the premium plus I think is what they called it. >> What's the market value? >> Uh like 18 >> probably $18. Uh the hard part is that it has full self-driving. >> Okay, got it. >> And so that in and of itself I paid $8,000 for it. Now it is hardware three, but the full self-driving you don't get the full 8,000 when you sell it unless someone really values that full self-driving. And so you have other cars without the full self-driving salt, maybe a little less, some with full self-driving salt, a little more. Gotcha. >> Uh, but I had a guy ready to pick it up at 20, and it was me that decided to keep the car, but he wanted to buy it. >> Got it. >> Yeah. >> Oh, well. >> Do you think that there are actual like tears to wealth that you could say pass this amount? Like this is the line that I draw. Pass this amount, yes. Before this amount, no. How would you draw true tears to wealth? Uh, I think that depends on like what you want to spend in retirement. I think we talked about this a lot, right? But yeah, tier one, 100K. I like that. I think that's a really good number. >> 100K in terms of like net worth. >> Yeah, >> I think that's like the six figure net worth is a goal that everyone can aspire to and probably reasonably hit within a reasonable time frame if they're being disciplined and diligent with their finances. So, that's definitely tier one. >> And what opens up at this tier? uh psychological comfort of knowing you have six figures. Compound interest is a little bit better at the $100,000 level, especially if you have $100,000 invested, right? We know that. Um what would be what would be tier two? I don't know. I think Oh, also tier one, like the confidence that you can got there. Like that's that's huge. I think a lot of people can't get to the five figure mark. So, if you can get to the six figure mark, I think that proves that you are an exceptional accumulator of wealth, at least in some fashion, right? You can't you can't get there accidentally and you can't get there by spending too much. So it proves to me that you have some sort of discipline. Tier two tier two varies. I think a tier 2 is between like 500k to a million. And I think at that level it's like okay you could probably reasonably assume let's let's say you have 500k and you're let's say before the age of 40 you can reasonably reasonably assume that this person will get to coast fire or something like that. And define coastfire. >> Uh coastfire is the point at which your investments are right now in which if you never touched it until the age of full retirement age, which is 67, it would grow to a full retirement. So let's say you have 500k right now, you know, with compound interest 8% returns in the S&P 500. By the time you're 67, it'll be worth, you know, whatever, $2.4 million. And that would cover your retirement traditionally at a 4% withdrawal rate. I think that's a reasonable goal that a lot of people can get to um with some diligence. So that that's probably like the next big level like coastfire or around 500k depend I don't know 500k is a good psychological level too and then maybe like tier three like ultra like ultra tier three is like maybe like 5 mil >> and what happens there I think that's like just financial freedom pretty much. What do you think? Don't you agree like 5 mil? I feel like you just like >> I I tend to agree and I think that there are some caveats, but I think that $100,000, yes, I think you've proven to yourself that you have the discipline that is necessary to like actually achieve financial freedom. $500,000 like it it bumps your likelihood of financial freedom. Let's say at $100,000 it was like 10% or 15%. At $500,000 like okay, you've sustained this for a long enough period of time to be at like 80%. like 85 90% like that's a huge gap for like a smallalish change in numbers and then yeah 5 million it's like okay at a 4% withdrawal where you have $2,000 like $200,000 a year that's very hard to spend if you have reasonable standards of living and uh and then past that what would you say is like the next level >> dude I I haven't gotten that far [laughter] uh trying to think uh I've never gotten that far but oh yeah no I know what you mean but like I haven't really thought about it because it it felt like 5 million was the frontier number. Like once you get there, it's great. But if I had to give it another number maybe where like your lifestyle changes so much or like you have the freedom to spend on whatever you want without any repercussions like 25. >> 25. >> Yeah. I feel like 25 is like a good number. I don't know why. I just It's arbitrary by the way. 25. >> So you don't you never really thought past 5 million? >> No. >> Why not? >> I don't know. I never thought I would need more than 5 million. >> But now that you have $5 million, do you think past it? Well, you don't know if I have $5 million. >> Oh, am I not allowed to say that? >> Oh, you can say it. Sure. >> Okay. So, like are do you think past it? >> Yeah, I've like thought past it, but I'm like, how is that gonna materially change my life so much? I don't really know. >> Lifelats probably lie flat seats. >> It's tough though in San Francisco cuz in San Francisco 3 and a half gets you a house like a a medium >> twobedroom, oneb, 1100T house in a decent area. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean 20 like 10 20 any anything in the double digit millions would be really nice. You know, you could probably buy a house in cash, chill. That's probably where it's at. And then maybe the next tier is like when you can afford a private jet, which is like, you know, 150. Do you ever aspire to have that level of wealth? I think it's an aspiration, but you know, if I don't get there, it's fine. >> It's an aspiration when you're sitting on the tarmac waiting for a delay. Yeah. >> But then you're like, well, >> yeah, you have to make so much. You know, it's exponential how much more money you have to make to even to even have the private jet, unless you do like net jets or something. >> So, what aspirations do you still have at your current net worth? >> My current aspiration is that I really like making content. I still I still enjoy it. I'm sure Graham, you enjoy it, too. And I like helping people with their finances. Like, anytime someone comes up to me and says, "Oh, your video helped me invest." or your video helped me figure out my budget better. Like I feel like that's my purpose. So I want to see how far I can take it. So maybe my aspiration is just like reaching more people and building out more of a business around that in like a way that's not just like something, you know, snake oil. >> No, no, no. So you would just say that you're very satisfied and content with where you're at right now. >> Yeah. But then how do we juxtapose that with what you were saying earlier this episode? How you were like, I constantly feel an urge like I need to be working. I need to be saving more money. I need to be doing this. I'm not doing well enough. >> Yeah, I think maybe that's like me balancing my professional aspirations and career with like my overall life satisfaction and happiness. Like overall, I'm like, yeah, I'm like a generally happy person. So, it's hard to take that away from me, but I am stressed because I still have these aspirations to like build a fulfilling, you know, content business. And what aspirations do you have, Graham? Um, I probably want to find something else other than the main channel to to fill my time >> but something in addition. >> I want to keep I want to keep growing something and I feel like I've capped out on that that main channel to the point where it's a little repetitive for me. >> Yeah, >> the podcast I love but it's not uh as like intense as like sometimes I like that building things. I think you like seeing things go from 0 to one. >> Yeah, I think so. >> So, like you you just like seeing that increase. Like you would probably get a lot of satisfaction out of growing a channel from like 0 to 10K more than you would >> seeing that number going from 5 to 6 million. >> I'm trying to put some of that energy right now to the memberships >> and like uh really taking that over and doing a lot on that because I think there's a lot of potential to go from zero to one, right, >> on the membership side of things. And so if you want to join the memberships, by the way, I'm putting all my resources behind that. And so there's a lot of extra content that you'll get with that. And I check my phone like every few hours for comments. >> He's always on his phone. >> And we'll have a post show conversation with Humphrey just talking about a bunch of other random stuff. So you can also watch it there. >> Yeah. >> So that's probably where I'm going to be putting focus on. Um other than that, man, you know what? Like I had this uh like I really like getting into art and music and so I've always wanted to do those things but they just I can never do them because they just don't it sounds awful but like I can't quite monetize it and I I feel like I'm just spinning wheels if I'm not like >> making money doing something. So if I >> like if you're doing something for fun you're like ah I could be making money right now. >> I look at the opportunity cost of like if I'm let's just say I put together a band. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm playing drums in a band and we're like, you know, rocking out in like a corner of the house or whatever. Then I'm like, okay, well, I spent a few hours doing this when I could have done all these other things >> or like maybe doing some artwork or something. And >> do you know how that feels or no? >> Maybe a couple years ago I was more familiar with that, but I think I just got to the point where like working for the sake of just working. Like I don't What's interesting is that like Graham will come into the warehouse and we'll work for a couple hours and he'll be like, "Dude, I feel like I've been here for 2 hours and I haven't done anything." And I'm like, "Okay, well like what would you like to do?" He's like, "I I don't know. Let's let's put this shelf up and then we'll put a shelf up and then after that he'll be like, "Okay, I feel good. I feel like we got something done today." Like I'm I'm glad I came in today because we we checked the box and I'm like that's >> I [clears throat] I don't feel like My happiness is tied to like putting up a shelf or like like checking a box of like, oh, well, I got this work done today. Yes. Will I I'll feel better if I get more work work done in a day as opposed to less. Like, yeah, sure. Absolutely. But I also like there are other things that I enjoy doing aside from working and like making money. >> Yeah. You don't want to waste time. If if I sit around doing nothing for an hour, I'm like, I just wasted an hour of my life. I'm never going to get that back. But at least if I put up a shelf, >> but something that I >> The thing that I would question with that is like don't you think at a certain point like if Warren Buffett who's worth, let's say, hundred billion dollars is, you know, near his, you know, death bed unfortunately, but like he's getting older. If he spends an entire day going over the financial statements of a of a company as opposed to spending time with his family, is that a wasted day? Is that wasted time? >> Yeah, but I'm not spending time with my family here. I'm just sitting on the couch just like twiddling my thumbs just trying to think of something to do. >> Exactly. But I think that like I think that the same rule could be effectively applied to your situation where it's like if you're not working, time is being wasted. Just like you said, if you're not like you would not enjoy jamming out even though you love playing the drums and you've played for most of your life, you love all of these things in life, but you you will not let yourself enjoy it because you feel like it's wasted time. We should be saving this for the post show. >> Yeah. realistically because then we're gonna go off on a long tangent here. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean though. It's like opportunity cost of time. You don't really think about it too much, Jack, but I think Graham and I probably think about it, which is like my my current hour could be used for something more productive, right? And productivity makes me feel good at the end of the day. Like when I have a really good productive day, I feel really good about myself. >> Usually the days where I'm having a quote bad day is when I I'm staring at the computer trying to do something and nothing's coming out and it's been like 4 hours of me just sitting there. I'm like, "Oh, now I feel like I wasted this time and I also wasted the opportunity to like go do something else." >> All right, we got to get back on track here about like finances. It's It's very difficult because we've spent a lot of time together. It's like we always want to talk about the philosophical, psychological things. We got to get back to finances because we know that's what you guys want. What is the perfect portfolio for someone watching this right now? >> Moderately conservative. I'd probably say 90% stocks, 10% other. Other could be if they're more conservative, fixed income. other could be if they're more aggressive speculative assets. But yeah, I think if you're young and you're making money, 90 to 100% equities is probably fine. >> And what do you mean equities? Like how do you determine which stocks you would want to buy? >> Uh most of the time just S&P 500 is is good enough. >> Is that what you do personally? >> That is not what I do personally. >> So what do you do personally? >> Personally, I've been buying more individual stocks. >> And why do you do that instead of buying the S&P? I think my appetite for risk has gone up over time um as I've been making financial content and I'm always paying attention to the markets. I'm investing in big companies that I know and love and I know intimate detail or not intimate but I know them intimately. Uh so my portfolio has been getting more weighted towards individual stocks but I think you know I was on the Money Guy show maybe like six months ago. I think I need to diversify back into the S&P 500. Why would you say that if you have you done well with individual stocks? >> Uh I have done well with individual stocks but I do think that the entire market has done really well with individual stocks and I just really want to make sure that if I have the amount that I have so far that I protect that capital and so I should really take my own medicine there. So I think I've learned a lot on this podcast which is I should probably spend a little bit more right in my personal life and I should probably take my own medicine and diversify back but the tax hit on the individual stock is tough. Do you think that people should consider tax consequences when investing in stocks? >> Um, how long are they investing for? >> Let's say they're investing for retirement and they're in their 20s or 30s, >> then probably not. >> Not as Especially if it's in a retirement account. Yeah. >> Let's say it's not though. It's a taxable account. You see, you made a whole bunch of money, but you're like, "Oh man, if I sell it right now, I'm going to have to pay all this tax." >> Yeah. I mean, that's I don't know. That's a tough balance because what what is their situation going to look like when they're 65? I don't know. Is their tax bracket gonna be really high for long-term capital gains? Um, are they going to be able to weather that tax bill depending on their other assets? I'm not sure. So, >> that that maybe is not a good question for me cuz I'm not sure. >> I personally I've made more mistakes uh avoiding the tax than I have uh writing it out. Like there there's so many positions where I was up a ton and I said, "Oh man, I don't want to sell it because I'm going to have to pay the tax." and then it just drops like I lose all >> those positions would you have held for 40 years or are these like >> you know that you were up a lot on >> um some of them like I'll give you an example Ethereum I bought in at the very bottom of like 20 something uh and I was up like 10 and something% I figured instead of selling I'm just going to let it ride >> okay >> and now I'm basically break even on that or no I'm down a little bit I believe so you would preferred to sell it, take the tax it, but at least have the gain. >> Yes. And what's >> you would have not known if it would it could have gone up enough to take. >> That's true. The other funny thing is, of course, the one time I do start to take profits, it was on Bloom Energy, and I started selling at like I sold a little chunk at 250, a little chunk at like 275, a little chunk at like 285, and now it's past 300. And of course, it's the one stock where I'm like, I'm going to trim some of this. >> That's the one that just keeps going up higher. I feel like you're you're measuring yourself up against the perfect investment though. Like you still what percent return did you get in Bloom and over how long of a time period was it? >> Hundreds of percent and and but I'm paying taxes as though it's like uh ordinary income basically short-term gains. >> I would say that's like the only real distinction that I would make. Obviously it's extremely nuanced and it's a case by case basis, but if you can hold it out so you're not taxed at short-term capital gains and you're taxed at longterm, then that's like the biggest thing. And then past longterm I don't think that tax consequences should make any decision for >> you shouldn't guide your investment decision and I agree too. >> What do you think are the best investments to get rich? >> The best investments to get rich. I mean that's a loaded question. What do you think? >> It's tough cuz like concentration does really get you rich fast if you concentrate in the right thing, but it can also ruin you fast. So um do you want risk of ruin then? Yeah, even tell us whatever that means. >> Dude, if you want risk of ruin, then yeah, you can concentrate in any, you know, individual stock that you want and if it 10xes, then it 10xes. But if you want the disciplined approach where you're going to get rich slow than index funds, >> what do you think about the market being at an all-time high right now? Do you think >> frothy? >> Yeah. >> Do you think people should invest differently with the market hitting an all-time high? >> No. Dollar cost average. DCA and chill >> always and forever. Dollar cost average. >> Dollar cost. time in the market beats time in the market. >> What do you say to the people who feel like they should sell a little bit right now and maybe take like half off the table with the market the way it is right now? >> I would ask them if it's out of a need like a psychological need or if it's out of like a portfolio need or like do they need the money or they just they're just worried that it's too high. >> Yeah. >> Um I would reevaluate your time horizon like if you're going to be investing for 30 years like should you be selling half right now because in 30 years it's probably going to be higher than it is today. So no. Do you feel any desire to sell? >> Oh, yeah. I do. But I I fight it. I fight it. I I'm not going to sell. But yeah, definitely. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, I feel it. Like I see the market right now and it makes no sense to me whatsoever. >> Yeah. Things are getting disconnected from their fundamentals. >> And the same thing happened. I remember in 2021 when people were throwing like, oh, I'm going to add Bitcoin to this and then it goes up in price. People are doing the same thing with AI. They just say, oh, we have this new AI division. It's like >> I think it really depends on the type of investor you are, right? Like if you're investing for really long-term stuff, retirement account, passively, you're not even looking at it. But for someone like you or someone that's very active in the market, >> maybe you could trim a little. Sure. >> I wouldn't. I know. >> But you could, but you could if you wanted to if that's what you really believe, which is like we're out of >> Yeah. But I also know that I don't know enough to be able to beat the market. >> Got it. That's good. >> And that every time I think, okay, this is it. This is the peak. It's going to double from there. So, it's not it's not worth it. It's not worth it for me to sell. It's better for me just to keep buying and holding. And that's what I just continue to do. But I fight the feelings. >> Yeah. >> How often do you see bad investment advice? >> Like online? >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. All the time. >> What's the worst advice you've seen? >> Just anything on Wall Street Bets is usually the worst advice I've seen. I mean, you see a lot of success stories on there, don't get me wrong, but I see like zero date to expiration. Is that advice though or is that just people speculating? >> I don't think that that I think Wall Street bets advice. That's just like they all know what they're doing and that it's gambling. Like conventional advice that's bad. >> Yeah. >> Uh I don't know if this is investment advice, but like the idea that oh, you'll just save more or invest more when you make more money. I don't think that's true. >> I agree with that. to like let's say someone is not already saving and investing and they're like, "Oh yeah, once I get my raise, I'll I'll save more then." No, I don't think that's true either. So maybe something like that, but that's not really investment advice. It's not telling someone to buy a certain stock or buy a certain uh thing. We were talking about this yesterday, dividend stocks, right, for someone who's young. Like >> really the only reason you would have dividend stocks if you're like 21 years old is just for psychological comfort, but really it's not doing much for you in terms of growth. So, you know, Graham and I reviewed some people's portfolios yesterday and it's like, well, you should probably be re reallocating into VTI or VT or V. If we are to all pick, let's say each three of us at the table two stocks that we think are going to do well over the next 10 years, which two stocks would you pick? >> I'm picking Robin Hood because I've been a big Robin Hood bull uh since like $18, $15. So, I really like Robin Hood. I like the direction that they're going. I liked Vlad when I met him. So, I always liked founderled businesses. I saw that their financials were growing year-over-year. I like all the offerings that they're coming out with, right? They have credit cards, they have custodial accounts, they've got the well, I guess they have the Trump accounts now. Um, and I just think it's the de facto brokerage for Gen Z and younger and maybe a slight a big slice of millennials as well. And I think that their assets under management is only going to grow. So, for me, I thought Robin Hood is at least on the cutting edge of brokerages, right? Whereas the old brokerages, they might take a little bit longer to adapt. Um, I don't like the sports betting stuff or the poly market stuff that's on the Robin Hood app. That's maybe one thing morally that I can't get behind, but I just contacted them to disable it on my app, so I can't be tempted there. So, that's one. The other is probably just Google. I just don't think you're going to be Google. like like I feel like Google's like full AI capabilities are not fully realized yet. Uh kind of same thing with Apple. I feel like Apple's really positioned well for like the AI revolution cuz they haven't really done much, but you know that they're probably working on it and they're just a little bit slower to market than all the other all the other big like mega caps, but I feel like they're in a good position too. So those are probably my two or three. But what are yours? You picked my exact ones. Let's go. >> Yeah, I would say Apple. I just think that the Moat is insane. Like, you know, I tell me to buy a different phone, bring me a phone that's two times better than the iPhone. I probably wouldn't change. Uh, and then on top of that, and also the way that like MacBooks are used in college, like it's kind of just like the the go-to computer in education. And I Yeah, I would have to agree. Apple, I think it's safe. I think it's like it's a safe bet. Well, we Okay, so two things about that. I think one, I really like the the new CEO is more hardware focused. I think that's kind of going back to their roots of like being hardware focused, which is nice, even though services is a is a large part of their business now. >> So, that's like one more thing great thing for Apple. But, we were talking about the S&P 1 yesterday, which I thought was interesting, too. You want to tell people about that? >> Yeah. And then we'll get >> Graham the S&P and that's that's another argument for like Nvidia or like any of the other like top, you know, three companies or whatever. The S&P 1, if you look at the way it's performed over the past 20 years, it is obliterated. What is the S&P again? The S&P 1 is when you buy the number one largest market cap company and then as soon as a different company takes over and becomes the largest in market cap, you immediately sell and buy that company. >> Yeah, but you're getting a tax consequence in that. So, you're constantly trimming. >> What did we just talk about? We we we just constantly selling it. >> Dude, this doesn't happen every 3 months. like the number one market cap company changes a lot of times they'll ride out for a couple years, a few years. So, you have long-term capital gains. But yeah, if you if you wrote out the S&P 1 for the past 20 years, the returns are like I don't even know. We'll put up a example right here, but like 3 or 4x the SP >> is that is that before or after tax, probably before tax. >> I'm just saying when you constantly trim your position, depending on your tax bracket, >> 20 to 23 and a half% or whatever it is, you're constantly trimming that down and then reinvesting. You have to outperform >> of course. Yeah, I agree with you. But you literally said 10 minutes ago that every single time you've made a decision based off of taxes, it is not healthy. >> And you're giving me another hypothetical scenario. >> It's not a hypothetical scenario. [clears throat] Like you can look at the data. I don't >> Okay, we'll look at the data. >> What are your two stocks, Graham? >> Uh, I would say I'd like Robin Hood, Amazon, and Google. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've heard Chris Camilo talk about Amazon, so I got to look into that more. >> I'm an Amazon now. I'm an Amazon literally just because of Chris Camila. Like it's I I you would argue the same thing, right? Like >> listen, I like Amazon a lot, but I stay out of individual stocks. It's purely because Chris and I'm in Amazon. >> Okay. So your portfolio is mostly ETFs and maybe like a couple individual stock holdings >> pretty much. >> What percent is individual stock holdings in your portfolio? Like less than 1%. >> Oh, that's really low. >> Oh, yeah. It's It's not much. I mean, it's >> Is your crypto position higher? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Crypto is like now it's maybe eight. Maybe eight to 10. gone up so much >> since your cost basis or just cuz you >> dollar cost I just kept dollar cost averaging and I just didn't stop and then when it dropped to like 60 to 65 I just I couldn't help myself but to buy more and we'll see if that was a bad decision or not. >> Cool. >> Speaking of Bitcoin, yeah, >> what are your thoughts on Bitcoin? >> Uh I think it's not going anywhere. I think it's obviously low right now for low relatively speaking. Um and and it's definitely underperformed this year. It's down. I think you can have, let's say, if you wanted it in your portfolio, three to 5%. I mean, I know you have eight, but that's still, I think, within reason. It's like an alternative asset. It's kind of like if you're just diversifying into like gold or something. I think if you wanted Bitcoin, that's fine. Yeah. I have like one Bitcoin, that's it. Well, >> when did you >> That is a lot. >> When did you first buy Bitcoin? >> Uh 2014 2013 2014. >> How much? >> I bought one Bitcoin for $100 back then. And what did you do with it? >> I spent it at a cafe. [laughter] Wow. Wow. >> The most expensive coffee you've ever purchased. >> And yeah, it's like a It was like a $60 I mean, I think at the time I spent 60 bucks at this at this cafe cuz we didn't know how Bitcoin worked and you had to like send Bitcoin from one wallet to the other using using, you know, the um the 32 or what however long the wallet character address is. >> And so I sent this Bitcoin to this cafe in Palo Alto, Koopa Cafe. It's like a famous cafe where entrepreneurs meet. But I sent it to them and I didn't know that Bitcoin transactions, they take like 30 minutes to confirm on the network because we didn't know anything back then. So the person behind the register was like, "We didn't get it because they don't know either, right? No one's really paying with Bitcoin." And so I sent it again and then I had to basically send it like three times and like that equivalent was like I don't know. 045 bitcoins or whatever. >> So and so they just kept the bitcoin. I don't know where it went. Yeah. And but you held on. They could have lost it. >> You held on to the remaining 0.55. >> Uh, no. I probably sold that and then I I rebought in 2017. >> Yeah. You buy at the price that you deserve. >> Is that Ramsey thing? >> No. No. That's the Bitcoin thing is you buy at the price that you deserve. >> Interesting. Yeah. And then uh yeah, 2017 I mean I've been in crypto for a long time. just maybe not as like I'm not as outspoken about it, but I definitely keep up with what's going on and I know a lot about crypto. I just don't make stuff on the channel about crypto anymore because my audience hates it for some reason. They're just more into traditional retirement and growing your wealth slowly. Not that not that Bitcoin is not doing that. It's just like once I say Bitcoin on the on the on the channel, people just are like, "Ah, that's like a scam." So, >> what is the stuff that your audience is most excited to hear about? >> Fire. >> Fire. Why do you think fire is so important to people? >> It's freedom. I mean, it's like when it's it's like when is when is the when is it done? When when's the job done? I think that's like a big thing. So, that that does really well on the channel. Psychological things do really well on the channel, like when is enough. Um, and then other other formats, affordability, cars, houses, stuff like that. What does money mean to you? You know, when I was like a kid, I always thought that money was like a really dumb concept because it's like fake. It's just it's just value that we assign to it. Uh but I view it as a resource that you can trade for things. So, I like that. And I also view it as something that can bring a little bit of happiness. Sure. >> What do you think the best things are to spend money on? >> Experiences. Other people. >> What experiences have you spent money on that you say that's worth it? I went to I mean I'll I'll just give you an example. I went to the Aerys tour. I thought that was worth it. >> Taylor Swift. >> Yeah. Taylor Swift. Yeah. At Sof. >> How much were tickets? >> I think it was like 1,200 bucks a ticket. I bought two. Yeah. They were great. >> She was great. And by the time I got there, >> the tickets were like 3,000 a piece. But yeah. >> Wow. I will say like I mean it's just a night I remember like really well. Like every Taylor Swift concert I've been to, cuz I've been to the 1989 concert and the Reputation concert, the other albums, they're always just like the craziest time of your life, cuz it the stadium is so loud. The energy is is all there. It's like it's it's really incredible. And you know what? I want to go to a Coldplay concert because of that, too. Or a BTS concert because I've noticed a stadium concert to me is like the energy is electric, and I like that. And I'm actually going to the World Cup game next Thursday. It's like Australia versus Paraguay. And you know, I think that'll be sold out. So, that's going to be like an experience that I I'll remember, too. >> Speaking of Taylor Swift, did you guys see this Morning She's pregnant? >> No. >> Yep. >> Really? >> I'm kidding. >> Oh, [laughter] gotcha. >> You should have held on to that for longer. I would have it. I would have believed it, too. >> I didn't I didn't check. >> I was doing it because someone's going to clip that. Oh, that's funny. >> So, you're a Swifty. >> Uh, I mean, yeah. I'd like to think so. Yeah, sure. I just like experiences, so I think to your point, spending money on experiences like that, that was worth it. Um, buying things for other people is nice, too. Like just buying dinner, picking up dinner. What are the worst things to spend money on? I don't know. I haven't felt like I've made a bad decision in terms of purchasing something recently, so I don't really have any worst decisions. The clothes, probably. Sure. Especially if it just like shrinks or I don't know. I think gambling. [laughter] Don't Don't gamble. >> You know what we could do right now? $100 each coin flip. >> You want to do that, Jack? >> I have $100. >> So do I. >> You guys want to do it? >> Sure. >> I'll officiate. Okay. >> Yeah, I'll do it. I'll do a $100 coin flip. Do you want heads or tails? I'll let you pick the heads or tails for the coin flip. >> Uh, I would like heads. All right, I'll be tails. >> Do you have a coin? Just flip a coin. Heads or tails? >> Wow. Digital coin. This is how This is how >> Let's go. >> Oh, there you go. Cool. So, >> congratulations. Did you believe me? >> Yeah, I believed you. >> Okay. Wait. >> Yeah, it was. >> No. Yeah, it was heads. He just looked for a second like he didn't believe me. >> No, because you were like showing your phone. >> Okay. Yeah. >> I got Graham Stefins $100. >> How does it feel? >> Pretty good. >> $100. Richard, >> how do you feel? a little bummed out, but [laughter] but it's that's fine. That's fine. You know, it is what it is. >> It's the way the cookie crumbles. >> It is. It is. You win some, you lose some. So, this is uh >> Would you do it again? [laughter] >> I don't know if I would cuz I kind of hit a limit. >> You cut your losses there. >> Yeah, I kind of hit a limit where I'm like, >> but you could get back to where you were. >> That's a great point. >> Would you >> What if you do double or nothing? $200. >> No, I wouldn't do that. I would do another hundred for the sake of content. >> I would do another hundred. That's double or nothing. >> No, it's not. Double or nothing is 200. >> That's It's technically double for him. >> Well, actually, no. Let's save this for the post show. Okay, >> we'll save it for the >> If you want to see the next coin flip post show. All right, we have some rapid fire financial questions for you, Humphrey. Let's see what you got to say. >> All right, sir. Rent or buy? Rent. New car or used car? >> Used car. >> Lease or finance? >> Finance. >> Credit card or debit card? >> Credit card. >> Payoff mortgage or invest? >> Payoff mortgage. >> Roth or traditional? >> Roth. >> Bitcoin or gold? Gold. I like gold lately, but I've also been collecting gold. So, yeah. Index funds or individual stocks? Index funds, real estate or stocks? Stocks. Higher income or lower cost of living? >> Higher income. Concentrated portfolio or diversified portfolio? >> Depends on age. Younger concentrated. [gasps] Die with zero or leave a large inheritance. >> Leave large inheritance. >> Retire early or work on something meaningful forever? >> The latter. Work on something meaningful forever. Track every expense or automate savings. Track 1 million at age 25 or 5 million at age 50? 1 million age 25. And then we have some multiple choice. Which will improve the average person's finances the most? [clears throat] Cutting expenses, getting promoted, changing careers, starting a side hustle, or starting a business? >> Probably cutting expenses. Are side hustles usually a legitimate path to wealth, a useful source of supplemental income, a distraction from advancing in a primary career, or mostly internet marketing? >> B, which was a useful source of supplemental income? >> Yep. >> What's the best side hustle for the average person? Freelancing, an existing skill, reselling, content creation, ride share or delivery, real estate, e-commerce, consulting, local business services. I'll go freelancing, uh, consulting. So, basically using the the skills you already have. And then I would go like reselling and then small business services right after that. >> Someone earns $70,000 at a stable job. Choose the better use of 10 additional hours per week. >> What are the options? >> You get that? >> Working towards a promotion. That's what you'd say, bud. Learn a new skill. Build a side business. Work a second job. or invest and research stocks. Learn a new skill I think is what I would say. Yeah. Especially if it helps you at work. Like let's say you're at work and you learn database management on the side. Like you could you could increase your income by a lot doing that. So Humphrey, thank you so much for coming on the ES coffee hour. Really appreciate it. We got a post show for all the members coming up. So if you want to join, you'll see some extra content me trying to win my money back. Thank you so much. We're also going to link to all of your information >> down below in the description. Go and subscribe to Humphrey. Thanks again and until next time. >> Thank you. Bye.