The Rise of “Princess Treatment” - Louise Perry & Mary Harrington

Princess treatment refers to various supposedly fairy tale worthy gestures made by women's partners including but never limited to lattes in bed flowers every Friday partner funded pedicures and doors being open for you nearly 130,000 Instagram posts congregate under it. However, this is immediately being taken to reductio ad absurdum. Courtney Palmer self-proclaimed housewife princess. I do not interact with the waitress. I do not open any doors and I do not order my own food. You do not need to talk unless you are spoken to. You are not going to be laughing loudly speaking loudly or demanding the attention of the restaurant. So princess treatment uh >> Is this not sort of lifestyle BDSM with a twist? Can I say it's a sex thing? It's a It's totally a sex thing. It's a sex thing. >> How do you both arrive at this? This is like that This is like that [ __ ] anti-wisdom thing where I haven't seen it. Like you're looking at this optical illusion and I'm like what? >> to be I mean this is kind of a Mary Mary Mary Louise Mary Louise chat. It's a Mary Louise group chat running joke about the tradwife I mean there's the tradwife or autogynephile but that's not this. Um there's >> What the tradwife autogynephile? >> or but but there's also there's also the continuity between um right-wing right-wing complementarian tradwife discourse and lifestyle BDSM which it seems to me is just it's it's really just a question of inflection but it's basically the same conversation. >> You're going to have to bring it down to earth a little bit for me. >> do you do which of us is going to >> Imagine that I didn't read the first three Harry Potter books and I've come in at the fourth please. >> so so on the one hand you have you know it's often very post-encodes some sometimes quite American. There's a sort of religiously inflected discourse about how men do one set of tasks and play one set of roles within a within a long-term relationship and women play the other and and everyone comes together as ordained by God in this in this dual dance of complementary unity and then everything is good. >> Mhm. >> Um on and then in a in an entirely different political filter bubble you have the people who embrace lifestyle BDSM which is um a it's a way of living in a long-term relationship where one person is always explicitly the dominant one who just gets to decide everything and the other person is also always the submissive one who just says yes yes master. >> There's a degree of entitlement though here which doesn't sound superbly submissive. There's a >> Well, I mean this is this is where it gets this is actually both both complementary and right-wing trad types and also lifestyle BDSMers will tell you that in fact the the wife {slash} submissive depending on how depending on how you're framing it, you know, has plenty of say because in in fact it's >> She's the one putting it online. It's never the man who's filming content about this, is it? >> That's true. That's true as that that well there's just too much of a rabbit hole. >> No, you want to do it? Let's run it. I'm fascinated. I'm already I'm already [ __ ] Alice in Wonderland here. >> Women Women do this simultaneous like I'm so submissive and it's all There's a lot of humble brag going on as well. Like by the way, my husband could afford to buy >> It's the long nails, long hair, high heels. >> Exactly, right. But but also she's calling the shots in terms of their social media presence. >> Yeah, and also >> Which is really what matters. >> In in these sorts of very deliberately stylized polarized relationships, you know, assuming it's a long-term affectionate relationship that both both parties want to continue and sustain and maintain, then actually the person who's who's formally giving way all the time has a lot of say because the other person has to second-guess what they want all the time. >> That's interesting. >> If you If you see what cuz I mean you can't you can't just order somebody around and say now you're going to you're going to go and lick the floor clean or do the dishes or whatever. Cuz if you if you just if you make if if you make decisions for both of you for long enough and actually the other person doesn't like their doesn't like your decisions, eventually, you know, the the nominally submissive one >> Well, the the nominally submissive one will vote with their feet, you know, assuming that it's a consensual loving relationship otherwise Um you have to make decisions that both people both of you want to abide by. Um So so actually it's not as it's not as it's not as commanding as all of that, you know, but it just sort of reflects >> Yeah. I think I mean we both feel like there's nothing wrong with complimentary gender roles. Like with within reason they make sense, it's fine, like no no complaint. What is weird about the lifestyle BDSM is when it's clearly done in exaggerated way as a sex thing. Like the motivation is not this makes the household run more smoothly, this makes sense of our financial lives, etc. It's this turns me on and I'm also doing it for an online audience. >> That's weird, yeah. >> That's weird. >> But I mean you know this the the difference I don't really see a huge amount of difference in kind between that and princess treatment. If she's like I'm just going to sit there sit there in the restaurant and you have to guess, you know, you as my date/partner have to guess what it is that I want to eat and get it right. And you have to do all the legwork of interacting with the underlings, you have to pay and I'm just going to sit there and normally yes, you know, you get to decide everything and you have the power, but also you have to guess and you have to get it right. So who So who actually has the power in that situation? >> point. Yeah, well, okay, I I really have seen through the matrix here. [ __ ] me. Women are so much more sophisticated than men are with this [ __ ] >> But yeah, I mean yeah, all of this of course, you know, with the caveat that it's it assumes that it's a a mutually affectionate and and consensual relationship. You know, under you know, there there are there is also there is also a continuum between that and domestic abuse. Because if if the one person >> Financial prisoner. >> Yeah, financial imprisonment, domestic abuse and so on where somebody is is calling the shots and actually the other person isn't free to leave through whatever combination of coercive control or other kind of dynamic >> Does this not play into another one of those lines that needs to be walked that it would be nice to be looked after? >> Yeah. >> It would be nice for my partner to know me so well that I actually sort of take my foot off the gas a little bit. Wouldn't that be lovely? And then if you overdo the dose, the response curve gets really squirrely when you get toward the point, well, I can't leave anymore because I don't have my own phone, I don't have my own bank account, I don't have my own access to anything. >> It's the big big trade-off. It is traditional gender roles that the woman has no financial independence. >> And as soon as you derogate loyalty, as soon as you end up with divorce becoming more societally accepted and people being able to move from partner to partner more freely, that means that the cost for the man uh the cost for anybody of leaving is so high and so common uh sorry, is so low and it's so common that you need to have the insurance policy at all times because the likelihood of you this just being marriage one as opposed to the marriage means that you've got to have the the back door. >> I mean, it strikes me that maybe may a possible explanation for why these compliment complimentary gender roles tend to appear either where somebody is extremely online and posting about it a lot or else in the context of religious communities. It might it might make sense in terms of the of that failure mode, the sort of abusive failure mode. Um in that if you're if you're posting online about what a surrendered wife you are actually you're probably making bank and so you're not all that surrendered after all because there's this other dimension to it. You know, you you remember the whole discourse about Ballerina Farm and that? >> No. >> Oh, okay. No, she's Instagram star married to the heir of JetBlue. >> You didn't even know about himbos. [ __ ] hell. >> You have a bajillion followers on Instagram. You've never come across Ballerina Farm? >> Okay. Entirely entirely distinct influencer universe. >> I I thought the echo chambers are very echoey here, yeah. >> The internet the internet is a big place, okay. So uh Ballerina Farm, very beautiful, very accomplished, sort of trad wife. In Hannah Neeleman. Married to married to the scion of the JetBlue family who inherited a load of money and they they have a farm where she does trad things and has lots of beautiful children. >> Okay. >> And makes yogurt and it's all very crunchy. >> Sounds like balance. >> I mean, right, exactly. It's It's lovely content. So, that she It's also like the content engine which powers actually a very profitable business for them selling like kitchen aliens, yogurt, and whatever. >> Yeah. >> Um like her I think her sourdough starter kits cost like $100. >> Yeah. >> You know, she's she's doing she's doing all right at it. And yet, you know, there's this whole discourse about whether or not she's actually oppressed. And I'm like, what? Have you >> One of the One of the things that people cuz she was profiled in the Times that the Times of London a while ago. And it was mentioned um there were various details mentioned which um a lot of um women primarily on the internet thought were alarming like how exhausted she got. I mean, I'm not surprised she gets exhausted cuz she has three kids close together, yeah. Um but things like they don't have a nanny. They don't have any domestic help despite obviously being able to afford it. And they were like, "Oh, this is a sign that he's oppressing her." And I thought, "No, you know what? I actually get it. I think that she there's a weird kind of Anglo thing going on including Anglo-American of like, "No, I'm going to do the hard thing on my own. I'm going to do the deliberately difficult thing." >> know, having having recorded a few podcasts and seeing how the sausage gets made, you know, you look at how well produced her content is. There's a ton of people in that house all the >> Oh, yeah, just not a nanny specifically. But like that it it I that makes sense to me. I think that makes sense of her personality. And of course, it is Hannah who is making all the content. She's She's running the show in that house. >> driving. >> Yeah. >> But it makes sense to me that the the the trad meme gets propagated either from within religious communities where the there is a there is actually a much thicker um relationship. There is a thicker community of people surrounding the couple. You know, again, this is not foolproof because, you know, domestic abuse happens within religious communities as well. Um but it also it provides some kind of uh ideological scaffolding for a couple such that, you know, potentially potentially that could help to keep a relationship in line, you know, and stop stop abuse creeping in and and make sure make sure things stink make make are able to remain healthy. >> is that kind of a a a insurance policy that if I'm the one that's in control of the Instagram account, that ultimately if I am mistreated, it might be a financial victory for you, but it's a branding victory for me. >> Well, I mean again again it's not a foolproof, you know, I mean this is I I can't name names, but I know from I know from one noted right-wing uh content producing woman that she she's she knows of several women within that space who are posting sunny tradwife content while their husbands are also not treating them very well. You know, this is this also happens. So it's it's definitely not foolproof as an insurance policy. I mean at the end of the day it's a fallen world, right? You know, people people screw up and do horrible things. You know, I'm not I'm not sure there's a there's a guaranteed way of hedging against that. >> One way that does traditionally sort of work to hedge against being mistreated by your husband is male kin, your own male kin. Like is it Sonny Corleone in Godfather who beats up his sister's abuser or something like that, right? Like they in really those really traditional societies if your recourse as a woman if your husband is mistreating you is >> Your dad goes around and breaks his legs. >> of patrilocal and matrilocal. >> Yeah, I mean this is this is probably something Chris that you're more able to speak to than either of us, which is about the formation like the the formation of virtuous men. >> I I'm glad that you look at me and you think formation of virtuous men. >> Well, well, I mean yeah yeah as the as the only as the only guy in this conversation, you know, unfortunately I think this this one's yours to speak. But but it seems to me that you know, there's where have all the good men gone? Actually the part of the answer to that is that you know, if we want good men, we need to we need to be forming good men. And actually what forms men is not women, it's other men. >> Mhm. >> Um and so and and I'm not sure we think nearly hard enough or specifically enough or concretely enough about how we go about forming men. I mean this sort of goes to the your your Labubu figure. You know, if the men that we're forming are sort of noodle-armed Labubu guys rather than virtuous, capable, competent men, then that's not just a problem for men, that's a problem for everyone. >> Mhm. Well, I think a lot of the advice that men are given is about how how to behave in a manner that makes women feel more comfortable. But, if uh the which it seems to continually be uh reinforced male competition theory seems to be highly predictive of female attraction as opposed to actually female attraction. So, there's a this is the David Buss study. Have you seen this one where they looked Oh, this [ __ ] brilliant. You're going to love this. So, uh photos of men were shown to both men and women. The women were asked to rate how attractive these men were. The men were asked to rate how likely they thought it was that this man would be able to beat them in a fight. The photos of the men were real people and they were tracked. 12 months later, they brought the photo men into the lab and said, "How many sexual partners have you had over the last year?" The female attractiveness rating was basically non-predictive. And the male intimidation rating was highly correlated. >> Competence is hot. And competence cashes out ultimately as can this guy can this guy protect me in a fistfight. >> But, it's the argument >> high sex drives maybe, right? They have high T. >> And there's some variables in here. They're going to be more forthcoming. They're going to be less agreeable. They're going to be you know, chasing after it, making it happen as opposed to waiting it for to come to them. But, still, you would think at least given that women are the gatekeepers and this is a direct I find this guy more attractive than that one. You would have assumed it would have had like maybe equal amounts of predictive power, but it didn't. Uh the ovulatory shift thing got another decapitation the other day, which was uh women don't find men with beards any more or less attractive, but they are more sexually uh successful and men find them more intimidating. >> Mhm. >> So, it's this, whatever it is, um uh women don't help you win, they just wait at the finish line to see who goes first. Um and it is male competition theory for this. But, the issue is if guys are trying to labubu reverse engineer their way into what they think women want, a lot of the time >> They're entirely going about it the wrong way. 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