The Response to Mental Health Crisis in Mid Scotland and Fife - 17 September 2026

Thank you. If members who are not staying for members debate could leave quietly that would be very helpful. Thank you. We're on our final item of business. Members business debate on motion 1039 in the name of Steven K on policing crime prevention and the response to mental health crisis in mid Scotland and F. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put and I ask members who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons now and I call Mr. K for seven minutes please. >> Thank you deputy presiding officer. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this issue discussed in the chamber tonight because the first principle of policing is not complicated. Sir Robert Peele's model was built on prevention of crime and disorder, the maintenance of public order, and the protection of the public. Police legitimacy comes from doing those things effectively with the consent of the public. However, that basic purpose has become blurred in Scotland. Police Scotland is increasingly expected to be a mental health service, a social work service, and under new housing legislation, even part of the homelessness prevention system. This isn't right. Yes, these issues matter, but that doesn't make them policing responsibilities. The police must have the ability to say this is not our role and other services must step up to the mark because these added burdens are putting immense strain on police resources especially frontline resources. Now, HMICS found that at times at least half of the deployable, and that's a smaller number than the total number of police officers, the deployable frontline uniformed officers were dealing with mental health related calls. Its conclusion was blunt. Police Scotland are filling gaps in the health and social care system. Figures subsequently given to parliament are extraordinary. Mental health related calls rose from just under 400 a day in 2018 to 666 a day in 2024. The officer time absorbed was calculated to be the equivalent of 612 full-time officers. That is police capacity on a massive scale being taken away from preventing crime, investigating crime, patrolling communities and responding to victims. And the chief constable herself is now saying this cannot continue. In her letter of the 2nd of September, Joe Farrell said, "Please Scotland recorded more than 230,000 mental health related incidents in 2526. around 18% of all incidents and that approximately 85% of those incidents involved no crime. She said policing's role had grown and I quote beyond what is best for vulnerable people, what is intended in legislation and what is financially and operationally sustainable. So why are police officers still going to these calls? And part of the answer to that question is mission creep. Now the police and fire reform Scotland act 2012 that gave birth to police Scotland says that the main purpose of policing is to improve the quote safety and well-being of people and communities. Now that is an unusually broad statutory formulation. Elsewhere in the United Kingdom, the core legal duties of police remain much more closely centered on protecting life and property, preserving order, preventing offenses, and bringing offenders to justice. In Scotland, well-being has helped blur that boundary. And over time, the boundary of the word well-being has expanded. In that wording, I don't doubt was well-intentioned. But in practice, it has helped create an open-ended expectation that the police will pick up whatever other public services cannot or will not deal with. It has contributed to a culture in which the police become the fir the service of first and last resort whenever another public service cannot cope. And another part of the reason is risk aversion. Officers are understandably concerned about the consequences for them personally of making the wrong judgment call, leaving a person in crisis, putting the phone down, or deciding there's no more they can do to help. This is not healthy. Officers are being asked to do work they were not trained for, did not sign up for, and which properly belongs to other services. We do not expect doctors or nurses to tackle crime. Why then do we expect police officers to respond to mental health incidents? This cannot go on. If somebody is committing a crime poses an immediate threat to life or serious harm or police powers are needed, the police must act. But mental illness alone should not turn somebody into a police matter. Now the minister uh who's answering this debate tonight, I believe needs to answer three questions. Will she redefine the boundary of poling in Scotland so that health, social care, and housing responsibilities sit with the professionals trained to deliver them? That's the first question. Will she review section 32 of the 2012 act and clarify that well-being does not create an openended welfare duty for Police Scotland? Third, when will frontline officers actually see the benefit of any changes to their responsibilities? Because while ministers talk about collaboration, police resources are being consumed, crimes rising, victims are waiting, and visible policing is disappearing. The police cannot be everybody else's emergency stop. So there's really one fundamental question that the minister should address in her response to this debate tonight. Where does poling end? Because if government cannot define that boundary, mission creep will continue. Frontline capacity already stretched will continue to disappear. Police officers will spend less and less time preventing crime, protecting the public, and pursuing those who break the law. And that is surely what we all want to see Police Scotland doing. Thank you. Can I remind all members to please speak through the chair? I call David Lindon for minutes, please. >> Thank you very much indeed, Deputy Officer. And may I start by commending Mr. KR for securing the debate, a debate that's very topical. He of course is a valued member of the criminal justice committee which this week was taking evidence um from police Scotland, Scottish police authority and HM Inspector of Constabulary on this very issue. And um although he and I will often come to debates from from different um areas certainly politically and ideologically um I think that some of the issues that he has raised tonight are important and and certainly fit within that wider public sector reform agenda um that will cast such a shadow over session 7 of the Scottish Parliament. But before I go any further and before I I do get into the the kind of um the meat of this particular issue, I do think it's important that the parliament places on record it sincere thanks and its appreciation for our police officers um who work day in and day out running into incredibly difficult situations. Um and I pay tribute in particular to um Chief Inspector Johnny Waters who leads the police in Mon Constituency in Shettleston. Um but Mr. is right to bring this to the chamber because it is an issue um that is frustrating uh for those of us in the criminal justice field. It's an issue that is no doubt frustrating for the cabinet secretary for justice and and Mr. K of course um put in context some of the challenge but to to kind of broaden that out a little bit. I mean we have lost 775,000 poling hours uh last year as a result of mental health callouts. It's cost police an estimated 34 million pounds from the policing budget and we're seeing um roughly around about5.34 hours taken up on average uh for every mental health call out. So that is a colossal amount of police time that could be spent dealing with issues that we know are all in all of our constituencies. So I think he's right to place that on the record. Um I think that some some work has been undertaken um to try and move the dial on this, but I was certainly very struck um by some of the written evidence that we had received from Police Scotland uh to the committee. Um and in particular a quote that said, "We have been unable to generate the momentum and pace of system change required and mitigate the immediate pressure which is still resting on police by default rather than design." And I know that the previous cabinet secretary for justice, Miss Constance, looked at this issue. I know that the current cabinet secretary is looking at it. Um, but I do think that we're going to start having to think out the box a little bit more on this one because Mr. K is absolutely right to acknowledge that there is a gray area that exists and we heard quite significant evidence about that at committee whereby police officers are turning up at accident emergency areas and yes for all the body worn cameras in the world that is still not getting to the number of the issue why police officers are unable to do that. I agree with them. I think there is an issue about risk aversion and I understand why police officers particularly because of the fears of park particularly because of the fears of peering before committees like ours if something goes wrong. So it is in human nature that people will be risk averse but we have reached a situation where I think we do have to look at things differently. I'm certainly very attracted to learning a little bit more about the situation that we explored at committee which is right to your right person that was piloted by Humberide police from 202021. Um it is not a panacea and there are issues that we're going to have to look at here. But I think that the this is an example of where cross government we are going to have to have further discussions on this because I can understand that from the point of view of the health service at the moment they are stretched. They see these situations when it's at any emergency department. Um but one question that I do have and if I can press the minister on relates to the roll out of the mental health triage cars at my party. Obviously I was delighted that my party won the election. Um I'm sure there was a commitment in the manifesto to roll them out. Um I think that that would be welcome but I think we need to have a much wider conversation in the context of public service reform where we can say do we have a place where we can be dropping people off. Yes, the police will be called out because of the nature of these incidents means that there will be a degree of criminality at times recorded in that. So the police will have an involvement in this. But why I'm absolutely clear about deputy president officer is we cannot have on average 5.3 hours of policing time being taken up with these incidents because it's putting massive pressure on the criminal justice system and we need to work much more closely and much less siloed on this issue. [applause] >> Thank you. a cult Liam care to be followed by Helen McDeed. >> I'm very grateful presiding officer. I'm grateful for the early call and permission to leave early to cover another event tonight. For nearly three quarters of my more than a decade in this parliament, I served as the shadow cabinet secretary for justice. And throughout that time, it's always been the same story. Things like mission creep in the police are being raised by the opposition. They are discussed in the chamber or in committee and nothing is done. And Steven K is absolutely right to hammer this point yet again in his excellent motion today because the police's own research describes their officers as a backs stop in the ongoing mental health crisis. Instead of being on streets or responding to an instance, they are babysitting their words. People in distress in A&E. Incredibly, more than one in six Police Scotland incidents were classed as mental health related in 2024-25. And the time and cost of this was accurately and terrifyingly set out by David Lindon just there. We cannot continue draining police resources because the S&P government fails the health service and won't give the ambulance service sufficient capacity to respond. But this is not only about what the police have been asked to do and the gaps they have been asked to fill. It is also about the impact that mission creep is having on the officers. >> As this the Scottish Police Federation has warned time and time again, the stress, the pressure, the expectations placed on officers are going up exponentially while the resources made available by the SNP are plummeting. So when Steven K flags that time absorbed by mental health incidents was equivalent to 612 full-time constables, it is in a context where there are over 1,000 fewer police officers than before the pandemic. And they are working from fewer stations with 18 sold between 2023 and 2025 and over 300 of those remaining requiring repairs. Mr. K. >> Mr. Okay, >> my colleague and friend for giving away because the point is the available number of officers for frontline duties is shrinking faster than that number of lost officers because there are modified officers, there are officers that there's a huge sick level. I mean more than 10% of the forces on absence s absence at any one time. So that number is diminishing all the time. Uh and that's creating a greater crisis beyond even what we're able to describe in these words that we're using in this debate. Liam car >> my friend is absolutely right on this because those officers that we've got unbelievably some of them are having to buy their own uniform because of problems with the standard issue kit and they then had to use that on the almost 50,000 officer arrest days which were canceled in 2024 2025 for the reasons that Steven K has just set out. So it is no wonder that in that context that last year that 1919 magazine reported that police officers lost almost 80,000 working days to their own mental ill health. Indeed in Q1 this year nearly 32,000 working days were lost to psychological disorders overworked underresourced and overlooked by this government. But presiding officer, in my 10 years here, there have been four cabinet secretaries before this one. And in all the debates, they all gave exactly the same spad prepared sound bite answers. So, I've got my bingo card ready, but to allow the minister to adjust her speech, I'll warner. What's on it? So, we recognize the pressure. Well-being is a priority. Support is available, but it's an operational matter for Police Scotland. More must be done. So we are investing and working with partners and of course the inevitable we've got more police support money etc than England yet nothing changes. It gets worse such that the data suggests it gets ever more challenging to serve as an officer in Scotland. So I beg the cabinet secretary I beg the minister to go where Yousef Brown Constance Mat refused to listen to this debate listen to the officers. Listen to the police. investigate the multitude of evidence that underlying organizational pressures and mission creep lie at the heart of this and respond positively to Steven K's three questions. So I know sir I would love to see the new cabinet secretary and minister sort it and I re uh readily offer any assistance that I that they need to do so >> but I fear that the NHS data that the cabinet secretary left behind when he was reshuffled in May means I'll wait a very long time. >> Thank you. I call Helen McDade to be followed by Jolong. >> Sorry, how long did you say? >> Sorry, four minutes. >> Four minutes. Thanks. Thanks very much deputy presiding officer and thanks very much to Steven Kerr for bringing this debate forward. Particularly pleased to talk about this issue and the fact that it does reference mid Scotland and F. So I will start by saying an aspect of Miss Scotland and F and other rural areas. I've lived in Perser for over 20 years and I lived in northeast F in previous occasions. So I do know what life in towns like Perth, St. Andrews Cooper was liked and is like now and the atmosphere has changed. That's not just my perception. That's what people tell us when we go around the around the town centers. The police we used to have I think approximately four I think maybe came up to Highland Perser. It's got Pit Locker, Abberfeld, Dunkel. There's some issues and obviously there's a lot of car accidents and and sadly we very rarely see the police in those areas now but we hear them nearly every day on the car accidents and we should take into account the trauma that that must be for those police. So their their job has changed fundamentally in this case not about mental health except their own and and I do wish to pay tribute to them because I hear those sirens and often the road is closed because it's been a serious accident. However, talking about the town center and seeing people around and perhaps suggesting to ruffians or whoever might be there that maybe they shouldn't bother, we never see them. We never see them. And there is a reason for that. Um, police Scotland um have been asked about the closure of the police custody uh suite in Perth. Um, and I met the police sergeant as it happened when I was campaigning and he asked me what I thought of the police and I said something and then he started telling me that he had been the police custody sergeant in Perth but he now had to go to Dundee because there was no custody suite and we hear from other police that they then don't have anywhere to take someone if they've got nothing um you know nothing there they have to decide whether they're prepared to drive to Dundee with this person that's two officers or even Aberdine if Dundee is full because there is less and please Scotland say there is no requirement to revisit that. I will thank you >> David Lindon >> dates um for her remarks so far. Um but if we're not seeing the police around too often but custody suites are full, the two can't be true, can they? >> Helen McDade. >> Well, I think they could depending on how long someone was in a custody suite. However, I'm not in a position to say that, but I believe they are true. I was told by the police sergeant that that was his experience, and I've been told by others. However, I mean, I'll be interested to know what David Lindon's uh explanation of this perception I will. Yes, Steven K what Dave is saying in an answer to David Lyndon's intervention. The reality is there have been huge cuts in the capacity of custody cells. you. It is quite regular for police officers to have to travel up to two hours with someone that they feel should be retained in custody, often for them to get there, wait a very long time to be seen, and then for the individual to be released. So, it is a deeply frustrating situation. It's born of the fact that there have been massive cuts in the capacity and availability of custody cells. >> Helen McDeed, >> thank you. I I welcome both interventions. And so, that's one problem. I think we need to also look at how people are feeling in these areas which where they don't see police visibility. Um, and I know from women about Perth that many women have said to me that they don't want to walk around the town center at night in the way that they used to do maybe as a group of women that they are frightened to go across the big areas of grass that we call the the inches. Um, and the center is less vibrant. Um, many closed shops. Um, however, there is a change in how people feel about that. I've been told that by many and I've been told that the taxi drivers, if they're friendly, will stop and say, "Do you want to lift because you think you're you're getting followed?" And shops, the optitians, I walked up to the optitians, door was shut, locked. I thought, "Maybe I've got the wrong time." No, they now have to lock their door because people were coming in, stealing all the best sunglasses, going away, and coming back a fortnite later and doing it in front of the staff. the staff had to just sit there in the way that you were sitting there do deputy presiding officer and so that's something that would never have been contemplated in the past and I know of a lady who shut her shop because somebody had come in and given her an incident and obviously there's always been crime but the question has to be asked what has been the benefit to rural areas from police Scotland and I would like to see the figures as I as I said we are aware that there are less about and where are the police however there are great examples of the third sector helping out and I agree >> the member must conclude. Sorry. >> Okay. I agree entirely with Steven Kerr's points that people need that third sector and there's there's various good examples of the change mental health the nuke and community justice Scotland are doing things. So we need to look at that but we do need to do something. Thank you. >> Thank you. I call Joe Long to be followed by Maggie Chapman. >> Thank you deputy presiding officer. I thank Steven K for bringing forward this motion today. Uh and I want to start by recognizing the picture that he paints of police officers experience and indeed the experience of those in mental health crisis. I do so both as a fellow representative of Midscotland and F and as my party's spokesperson on mental well-being. It was precisely through engagement with the Scottish Police Federation and in response to their 2023 report on police time spent in mental health emergencies that Scottish Labour proposed an emergency mental health response division across Scotland in our election manifesto in May. The chief superintendent publicly raised this problem of the problem of police time spent on mental health emergencies as long ago as 2019 and my colleague Paulie McNeel highlighted the issue in the chamber earlier this year. Labour proposed an emergency mental health service to ensure that those in crisis received timely skilled support from mental health professionals and that police officers were able to get on with the job of policing instead of spending time chaperoning vulnerable people on A&E wards. Fe was one of the pilot sites for mental health response cars in 2024 to 25 in which a paramedic from the Scottish ambulance service and a mental health nurse attended emergencies together. The service was funded by F council and resulted in significant reduction in the time police spent supporting people in the A&E department of the Victoria Hospital. The pilot originally in Leven and later rolled out to cover Kicotti and Cowen be ran from Friday to Sundays on 8:00 a.m. to 6 a.m. But however, since the pilot ended in 2025, wrangling over funding has meant that the future of the service has been uncertain. So I welcome the Scottish government's commitment to mental health triage cars in the program for government. We're very used to seeing effective interventions piloted but not scaled up or put on a sustainable footing. So I will be genuinely delighted if we start to see more well-ec programs rolled out in this way. Just this week I met with Penumbra mental health uh organization whose team including peer support workers provide essential services to people on the road to recovery. Whether that be through homebased support for those at risk of homelessness in F or in the 247 crisis centers such as Home Point in Dundee. change mental health has highlighted to me its work in deploying the distress brief intervention model in other parts of Scotland. I also reckon the excellent recognized the excellent work done in non-clinical settings like some hes nook which I had the opportunity to visit in Glasgow over the summer because the way to stop people ending up in mental health crisis is to support those preventative services and those early intervention services. There won't be a magic bullet or a one-sizefits-all solution, but these models, which have proven success, together with the expertise that the third sector brings, deserve sustainable support and funding. We need a joined up whole system approach to mental well-being. The mental foundation, mental health foundation highlights how vital it is to counter the harms to mental health in the workplace, online, in social media, and tackling bullying among children and young people. But we also need to ensure that mental health is not just a proxy term for mental ill health. So we must recognize the positive well-being effects of community- based services that not nominally about mental health at all, but those places, events, groups, and pastimes that are spaces of belonging, well-being, connectedness, and purpose. Yet, these services are often on the most precarious funding and the first to be cut when finances are tight. If the Scottish government is to succeed with a preventative agenda around which there is broad crossparting agreement, this whole system approach will be necessary to support the well-being of our people and to let the police get on with policing. >> Thank you. I call Maggie Chapman to be followed by Frieza. >> Thank you. And I thank Steven K for securing this debate. We've started some good conversations on this at the criminal justice committee. So, I'm grateful for this opportunity to discuss further how we can secure safety and well-being in our communities. The intersecting crises of climate catastrophy, cost of living, and housing all fuel another crisis, the mental health crisis. Census data shows that the number of people who report having a mental health condition more than doubled between 2011 and 2022, and Police Scotland being on call 24/7 have clearly been affected. I mentioned the other crises because they they cause all of our services and facilities to be stretched. University staff report soaring cases of student mental health crisis as students struggle to b balance study and work with poor housing and decreasing support services. Council housing officers report increasingly complex homelessness presentations. Substance abuse services report clients declining mental health. Austerity has taken its toll. The focus of the last 15 years should have been one of prevention as described by the Christy Commission and referenced yesterday by Assistant Chief Constable Katrina Payton at the criminal justice committee. Instead, we've seen standards of living fall and public and third sector infrastructure not resourced to deal with current crisis, never mind shift to prevention. The police are often the only port of call left. And the over 600 daily police visits to people in mental health crisis are not for the most part to people who have an abundance of wealth and opportunity. They are happening to people who are living in homes that they cannot afford to heat, to those who are socially isolated because local services they once relied on have been cut. A 2024 Scottish government survey showed that 48% of women and 39% of men reported that their mental health has been negatively affected by the cost of living crisis. No doubt there are similar examples in midscotland and f but for 25 years Rosy's social enterprises in abodine in my region offered specialist creative workshops for people with mental health conditions with the products sold through its gift shop. It provided inclusion vocational training support and work experience for people in mental health recovery. But Rosies has now closed because of a funding cut made by Abedine Health and Social Care Partnership. I'm deeply concerned about how those affected will be coping. And of course, police officers should rarely be the first responders to someone in mental health crisis anyway. Not just because mental health professionals are more appropriate, because the police can make some mental health crisis worse. Many people in mental health crisis will have had previous, often negative engagement with the police. Just this week, a constituent of mine in severe mental distress had six six police officers turn up to undertake a so-called welfare check. This constituent became even more distressed. They were physically restrained on the ground. They suffered bru significant bruising and cuts and ended up being arrested. I do not believe this would have happened if a 247 mental health service had attended. Aside from being very poor use of police time, the additional trauma and distrust will make it harder for other services to provide support. We desperately need properly funded urgent response mental health services. We must expand >> yes for giving away. Um I appreciate the tone of our speech. We come at this recognizably from different directions, but I think we've ended up in the same place, which is to say that the police should not be the ones who bear the burden of responding to mental health. Does she welcome the fact there seems to be a consensus right across this chamber from those who've spoken from different parties tonight that something now needs to be done to address that fundamental need? >> Maggie Chapman, >> I thank Stephen Care for his intervention. Yes, absolutely. I think it's quite clear that while our police officers should be able to recognize and support people in mental health crisis, they should never be the first responders. We need to we need desperately to properly fund urgent medical uh mental health uh response services. So as David Lindon said earlier, we must expand the 247 mental health triage cars pilot piloted in Dundee so that appropriate mental health professionals can urgently attend people in crisis without the need for police presence. I hope the minister will give us an update on on this. In closing, we need a core minimum of services available to anyone with mental health needs and we must all recognize the links between inequality and poor mental health. Ultimately, poor mental health is, as Professor Claire Bambra says, the human price of the economic decisions we make. We can choose to create a country where people have access to warm homes, decent incomes, good health and social care when they need it, opportunities for social connection, and hope for a live livable future. Then we will have addressed the mental health crisis that is causing the problems for our police service that we discussed today. Thank you. >> Thank you. Before I call Mr. Fraser, due to the number of members who still wish to speak in the debate, I'm minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 8.14.3 to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. And I now invite Mr. Steven K to move the motion without notice. >> Moved. >> The question is that the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes. Are we all agreed? >> Thank you. That is agreed. and I call Mr. Fraser to be followed by Julie Mcd. Thank you presiding officer and can I commend my friend Steven K on securing a debate on this very important topic and it's clear from the contributions we've heard so far from all different parts of the chamber that there's a huge degree of consensus around this particular issue and I was very struck by the comprehensive briefing from the Scottish police authority that was supplied to us where they say uh policing has become the default first response service to people experiencing mental health distress and crisis and is clearly that should not be the case but that is the reality as we've heard from Mr. care and others. Uh and the figures quoted by the Scottish Police Authority are stark. In the year 2025 to 26 alone, the police had 234,000 mental health calls. These accounted for 22% nearly a quarter of all police deployments. that represented, as David London said, 775,000 policing hours or the equivalent of 481 full-time equivalent officers fully employed. And the most stark statistic in relation to all that is only 13% of those callouts result in a crime being recorded. Fewer than one in seven are actually related to criminal activity. This is the police being diverted as Steven K said into social work, something that should not be their core activity instead. And it's a common complaint across mid Scotland and F uh and and I'm sure is the case in other parts of Scotland from communities that they feel a lack of a police presence. They don't see police in their community. When they do call the police, often perhaps for something that's not an emergency, they have to wait a long time for a police officer to attend. And seldom do they see police out on foot patrols, which as we know is a good way of deterring low-level crime and antisocial behavior, which plagues too many of our communities. But the police are starved of resources. The Scottish Police Authority say they want more visible policing because that's what the public expect. And they know that deters crime and antisocial behavior and they are right to make that call. And the police locally in the area Steven K and I represent do need more resources. We know there are fewer police officers today than there were when the SNP first came to power as Liam K made said in his particular contribution. And there's a particular issue in Perth and Canross. Helen McDeade made a very fair point about the closure of the custody suite in Perth a number of years ago. That means if somebody is picked up in Perth and can Ross and has to be taken into custody, two police officers have to accompany them to Bell Street in Dundee and sit and wait while they are processed uh and taken away before they come back uh into Perth and Ross. But even more seriously in this in this context, the nearest uh mental health admitting facility in Perth and Ross is Cars View in Dundee. And you then have a situation where somebody who has to be taken into mental health custody. Two officers have to accompany them to cars view. They can be sitting in cars view from what we've heard from the local chief inspector sometimes for for hours while they're waiting for that person to be admitted before they can even consider coming back to resume their shift. And it's ve very possible and very frequent. You could have two officers spending their entire shift just accompanying one person to carry and that's taking police away from the streets and away from their core activities. So the point has been made by others. We do need alternative pathways. It shouldn't be down to the police to become social workers. What we need to do is take the burden off the police and get them back to what should be their core activities of detecting, solving and detering crime. That's what the public expect and that's what the Scottish government need to get on and deal with. Thank you, presiding officer. >> Thank you. I call Julie McDougall to be followed by Kate Nebans. Four minutes. >> Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And I just want to congratulate Steven K for bringing the forward this important debate this evening. Uh most things have been covered but I'll I'll carry on with what I've got here to say. So our police police officers as we know play an essential role in ensuring that we are all kept safe. Um and as we've heard they do an excellent job under these very very difficult circumstances but they should not be expected as already mentioned to act as emergency social workers. Their job is to deter crime as we've heard and catch criminals and that is something that we should fully support them in doing. Um I know myself only too well um in my role as a f counselor about the difficulties that our communities um are facing um even trying to access the police. when I attend meetings locally with organizations, community councils and people at the grassroots of the communities and constituents, they all still come to me each week. Um, and these complaints are about antisocial behavior, shop thefts, and day-to-day crimes which simply are not being addressed. But I do want to stress, as has been mentioned, that the blame is not on individual officers across my area or anywhere else. they are doing their level best and I speak regularly with the police on these matters. It is the deep structural issues as we're mentioning today with the policing system that are causing this which ironically will cause more mental ill health because of our constituents bearing the brunt of unchecked crime in their areas. But regarding the motion at hand, um I want to shift focus to another fundamental issue which has been touched upon and but I don't feel has been addressed maybe enough um in general. Rather than ask what our police can do for us, we need to be asking what we can actually do for our police um and and make sure that um when it comes to their own well-being that we're considering this. I also believe that in our modern system of policing and damaging um government policies have resulted in more undue stress being added to the role. Um the S&P's initial merger of Police Scotland back in 2013 was supposed to reduce these pressures and make policing more efficient and accountable. But over 10 years on it it has only made these issues much worse. These there are notable examples of bullying and harassment within police Scotland which I have attempted which have been attempted to be swept under the rug. The Rona Malone case from a few years ago is one of them, but there are plenty um of under reportported instances of individual officer misconduct which can see those accused um being suspended with pay for years on end before justicees served in some cases. His m majesty's inspector of constabularary in Scotland have even went as far as to report that this damning delay in justice has left victims serving the police feeling suicidal. Is that really good enough um for our brave policemen and women? It cannot be understated how much this damages the effectiveness of policing in our communities and it demoralizes our officers. It deters newcomers into the force and ultimately it pulls these much needed resources away from the real problems on the streets which I've pointed out earlier. So this is not even mentioning some of the other issues spurred on by the S&P government short change in our police such as the closing of local police buildings across Scotland which has also resulted in the Scottish police officers being encouraged not to make arrests um amid capacity issues. And who could forget the utterly embarrassing hate monster campaign from the last session which was the result of Hamza Ysef's government essentially forcing Police Scotland to justify his deeply unpopular attempt to erode free speech in Scotland. All of this is to make the point that even if we were to accept the premise that our police should be there to take on mental health as part of their role, there will simply not be enough officers to do so as a result of the consistent underfunding and the undermining of basic police services. For policing to work, we need to believe in our police and the police also need to know that we believe in them. and I look forward to working with colleagues across this chamber and local police representatives across my region to make sure that we get this right across mid Scotland and five. Thank you. >> Thank you. I call Kate Neans to be followed by Miles Briggs. Uh thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm aware that Steven Kerr and I don't always see eye to eye on matters of criminal justice. Uh but today I'm very happy to say that I support this motion and would like to thank the member for bringing this topic to the chamber for discussion. I too am really worried by the evidence that there has been a rise in mental health calls to the police and that police Scotland is essentially filling gaps in the health and social care system in Scotland. People experiencing mental health crisis should always have access to the most appropriate service and the police are rarely that service. Police Scotland themselves are declaring that they are under unsustainable pressure from mental health incidents. Officers told the review team that is not unusual for half of the deployable frontline frontline uniformed officers to be on mental health related calls at a time. Expecting overstretched and inadequately trained police teams to be the primary response to mental health crisis risks leaving extremely vulnerable members of society without the care they need and can also further stigmatize people struggling with mental health issues. For me, this discussion really highlights the need to move more funding into community mental health support, transferring mental health responses from Police Scotland to properly funded community crisis services and enabling us to reduce police callouts. taking inspiration from communities around the world like those in Minneapolis where local governments have been voting in favor of proposals to reduce their local law enforcement budgets and remove police as responders for noncriminal calls in areas such as homelessness, mental health, and substance abuse. It's sadly no wonder that we're seeing this rise in mental health calls at least after decades of austerity and declining funds to our mental health budgets. If we want to support the long-term safety and well-being of our communities, we should be prioritizing funding preventative services and addressing the root causes of poor mental health. And as change mental health tells us, we should be using every opportunity to protect and enhance local mental health crisis pathways. Investing in community support is also particularly important when trust in policing is not shared equally across society. For example, participants at focus groups being run by LGBT health and well-being discussed at length the significant lack of trust minority minoritized communities have in policing and police Scotland with past negative experiences and systemic inequalities contributing to hesitancy in seeking police support. As today's debate is also about Mid Scotland and F, I feel it is also important to pay tribute to the family of Shakub Bio. Fighting now for over a decade to uncover through a public inquiry whether race played a role in Shaku's untimely and tragic death at the hands of the police. Shaku was aged just 31 and clearly experiencing a a crisis. Shaki's family are still waiting for answers from the inquiry and I hope they get the solace and answers they need and deserve soon. In 2023, Scotland's police force acknowledged it was institutionally racist and discriminatory and the chief constable made a set of commitments to Shaker Bio's family about understanding, recognizing, and acting upon institutional racism within Police Scotland. Yet, Police Scotland's chief officer team still does not have one person from a minority ethnic background. We've heard very little more on these commitments since. The lessons of the Shaker Bio case demand that we listen to communities and ensure that people with experience of racism and other forms of discrimination help shape the services intended to support them. That we push for anti-racism education in schools and police and justice practices while also recognizing that our communities and in particular our marginalized communities are not best served by the police when experiencing a mental health crisis. And ultimately, we need to be investing in inclusive me community mental health and broader support services to keep our communities safe and well. Thank you. >> Thank you, Miles Briggs. >> You Deputy Presign officer and can I congratulate my friend and colleague Steven K for securing this debate this evening and I think it is a timely debate especially given the government's approach to what could be a significant redesign of services. So I hope the cross party consensus which I think is emerging about needing a new model um is taken forward urgently because speaking to police officers in my own region I know how frustrated they have become and as Murder Fraser outlined we need to look at what is a positive outcome for a police response to a mental health uh crisis because sitting with an individual in A&E um for sometimes um a situation where some medical review medicine review might take place before returning that person home is not a use a good use of anyone's time including A&Es. Now I visited a few weeks ago in Aberdine the nuke and was really impressed already by the data they shared with me about how they are actually being the first point of call that they're taking someone in mental health crisis and working with them. Now they're building strong links with the police who are obviously transporting them there in some cases, but I think there's a real good opportunity to see that expanded. The one in Abodine and uh Glasgow are operational. There's one soon to be in Edinburgh. But that is a good model, but we don't need to just look at that. We can look at as uh David Lindon mentioned the right care right person framework which is delivering great results in England. The National Police Chief's Council in England has suggested this has saved over 1.1 million officer hours with that new approach. So we know what works in England and we need to adapt it here in Scotland as soon as possible. Unless there is an immediate risk to life, the police response is not to attend. Now I think personally I think that a police response is not an appropriate response to a mental health crisis and so we need to develop the services which will meet that head on. Now I spoke to a number of police officers uh over the summer recess about this issue. Um, in fact, one who has left the police service because they'd had enough of how they were being treated. And there was also a key message I took from a meeting I had that many police, female police officers now complain that they are the ones being tasked with responding to these callouts. Now, I don't have evidence that that is the case, but that's what I've been told by female police officers and wanted to raise in the debate as well. Now Maggie Chapman made a important point I think in relation to IGBs because over the last five years serving as a member of parliament for Edinburgh. Every year I have campaigned to stop our crisis center being closed by cuts to the JB. So what infrastructure we have is slowly being eroded as well and that's something I hope the minister also considers. A&E we were told would be the response that if they closed that service they could go to A&E without an accident or an emergency but that would be where they would be taken and at weekends we need to really understand and consider what is the response because often there is no social work or NHS services and that is when the police are the only response available. So what is that 247 service actually look like because I don't think we've really developed that. So to close, Deputy Presiding Officer, um as I return to covering the health portfolio, I am disappointed that we've not seen any real progress on this. I raised these issues in health committee during my time and hoped we would as a country have adapted some of these uh new models which have worked in England. I hope this debate and the minister's response sees this new approach and we urgently look towards changing how the police respond. Thank you. Thank you. I call to respond to the debate. Minister Kristen Oswald, >> presiding officer. It's a pleasure to respond to this important debate to thank Mr. K for raising the topic and all members for contributing. And I want to start by echoing what David Lindon and Julie McDougall said and convey all of our sincere thanks to police officers. And I want to acknowledge that police officers deployed to mental health incidents are taking up a disproportionate amount of officer time and we are seeing the impacts this is having on communities and officers. Police officers should not routinely find themselves carrying responsibilities belonging elsewhere in the public sector. So the cabinet secretary and I hear the calls from police officers, the Scottish Police Federation, the Association of Scottish Police Superintendent and the the Chief Constable. I want to reaffirm to them and this chamber that the Scottish government is committed to working with partners to address the challenges highlighted and to take forward mental health and poling reform following the inspectorate thematic review. Public service reform indeed mental health service reform is a priority for this government. The Minister for mental well-being, the cabinet secretary for justice and I are all committed to ensuring people in mental health distress receive the right support in the right place at the right time. Indeed, I know that the cabinet secretaries for justice and health have met on this specific topic. But mental health and distress are multiaceted issues as Maggie Chapman very eloquently outlined. And we know that a range of factors contribute to our mental health. We can't just address mental health without also considering employment, housing, cost of living, opportunity, and people's relationships. That requires a whole system approach. And we've heard that in this chamber. People's lives are also increasingly complex and responding to mental health distress doesn't neatly fit into clear organizational boundaries. I would like to say that in response to the inspector's thematic review, a partnership delivery group has been established involving the Scottish government, Scottish Police Authority, Police Scotland, Cosa, and other partners to take forward a collaborative approach to help improve our emergency and unscheduled mental health care pathways. The group developed and published a framework for collaboration and a collaborative commitments plan last year. We're 18 months into this program of work and we are seeing the benefits and I know that's something people have been interested in. I'm going to make some progress but I'm going to try and address the remarks that people have made in my speech which I hope you will find helpful. So in relation to some of the points raised by Maggie Chapman, each health board is now providing access to a mental health clinician 24 hours a day, seven days a week for those who require urgent mental health assessment or urgent referral to local mental health services. Police officers have 24/7 access to those mental health clinicians. NHS 24's dedicated mental health hub within the 111 service ensures that emergency calls from people in distress or in need of mental health support gets advice get advice from trained professionals 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And the enhanced mental health pathway ensures referrals from police to NHS 24 mental health hub are carried out safely and effectively. And last but certainly not least, the Scottish ambulance service is operating mental health paramedic response units. This is of interest to to colleagues in the chamber in Glasgow, Dundee, and in Bernese. And we recognize that all of this work sits in an environment of rising mental health demand. Police officers will always encounter people in crisis. They have a vital role in protecting life and keeping communities safe. And I'm encouraged that we are doing the right thing here. The 2026 partnership delivery group report shows a multi-year reduction in the number of placing mental health incidents down by over 6,000 incidents since 2024. That's one of the things that uh Mr. K Steven K to many Mr. Cares this evening um asked me to to look at and I think that there were a number of very serious points made. Uh Steven K was interested in section 32 of the 2012 act in relation to well-being. And I would say to him that I don't consider that the definition of well-being in itself is a a cause of demand. But I think that the challenge that we face is broader pressures across the the public services and society. The Scottish government is looking um at a national review of Scotland's strategic police priorities to ensure that they remain relevant and responsive to the needs of Scotland's communities. give way. >> I'll give way briefly, but I don't have a lot of time >> because I respect where the minister's coming from. She's she's got her brief, but I have to say to the minister sincerely that her understanding of the of the the effect of the framework is grossly overexaggerated because the evidence that we've collected at the beginning of our time as a criminal justice committee suggests that the modest progress is next to zilch and police officers on the front line would not agree with the way she's characterized the available support that they have for for them in terms of that. and and and so I would ask her please to speak herself to the federation, talk to the superintendent. They will tell you a completely different story and serving police officers are telling us a completely different story than we're getting tonight from the minister. >> Minister, I'm grateful to Mr. Care for that intervention. I'm going to try and make progress now. So say to members, if you can bear with me, no, I'm going to make progress now. As I've said, that was a a long intervention and Mr. is quite right to make an intervention if he wants to, but there are things that I would certainly want to cover. Um, so another thing that he asked about was the the boundaries and, you know, I think that the the importance of understanding what these are um is is a a reasonable point. Um, the the Scottish government is aware of the um standard operating procedure review, which Police Scotland um are looking at. They're consulting with partners on that. Um, and I think that, you know, that that's an important point. Our focus here is on making sure that people experiencing distress or crisis receive timely and appropriate support and that all plays a part of that discussion. He did ask about when we would begin to see the benefits and I think I've covered that quite adequately um already in terms of the the data but this is an ongoing body of work. So you know his point in terms of this being somewhere that we are moving towards rather than having arrived at I think is a reasonable one. Mr. London talked about mental health triage cars as did Mr. Long um which we have have spoken about but there is a commitment to expand these cars from the the services that are already there uh based upon the evaluation of uh the these three locations that evaluation should be with us this autumn and then Mr. Lynon and also Mr. Briggs talks about the situation in England and Wales and I would say to them that please Scotland, the Scottish Police Authority and the Scottish government agree that that is not the right approach here in Scotland uh where we have a continued approach to partnership working particularly in light of the recent findings from Coronial Inquest resulting from the implementation of that policy and there was evidence in the committee last year from the assistant chief constable that the approach we have here will be far more sustainable which I think is an important point. Mr. Liam K um asked about um as did Julie McDougall um the the mental health of police officers. I think that's a really welcome and important thing to to raise that there is significant investment 17 million pounds of investment in employee assistance as well as mandatory mental health interventions. But I think it's a serious point and one that we should continue to uh continue to give time to. police uniform he also raised and I would say that's a a matter for the the chief constell but obviously my expectation is that people have the kits that they need Kate Nevin um I would point to the new police ethics conduct and scrutiny um Scotland act 2025 which I think will answer her questions um public trust in policing is really important so presiding officer our ambitious program for government does reiterate a prevention first approach across public services that's echoed in the health and care improving flow plan that aims to ensure we have one connected system with simple routes to care. Mental health obviously being key there as well as early intervention. It also outlines our support for expanding community walk-in mental health hubs and investment in third sector support services. I know that some of these will be items of interest to Mr. Fraser and Kate Neans who raised these issues. When somebody is in need of emergency mental health care, we want to ensure they can receive that appropriately and in a timely way. And that's why our focus is not just on improving access to support, but on building a stronger system. We will strengthen crisis support through the new paramedic response units, expand access to help by delivering psychological therapies through NHS 24, and fund better support for children and young people in crisis. In addition, there is a joint commission between Police Scotland and NHS board chief executives to move faster on reducing inappropriate police demand and improving access to timely mental health distress and support. I thought that um Hel Mcdeade made some important points about partnership working um and would um absolutely reflect on what she says. So taken together that comprehensive package will improve mental health and well-being in communities, a point that people made. And I think [snorts] presiding officer, I'd like to finish where I started um with a a note of gratitude to the police. Confidence in our police service is vital for a safe and just Scotland. The majority of adults are confident in the effectiveness of our police to deal with incidents to solve crime to catch criminals. So I look forward to continuing working in this space with Police Scotland, with the NHS partners and with members across this chamber in delivering this vital program of work in this vital area. That concludes our business and I close this meeting of the parliament.