The Real Reason Your Life Is Still The Same - Angelo Somers

What does trying for 20 mean to you? >> Um, as with most things, people tend to do it as a positive and a negative side. Um, I'm sure you're aware of that. Um, the idea is just that, you know, when everybody else is trying for 10, you're going to be the guy that tries for 20. And so, the positive side of that is you can end up getting a lot done. You can end up building a podcast with a billion plays. Um but the negative side of it is uh you're constantly anchoring your actions and your behaviors to what you see other people around you doing. Um so in some sense it kind of reduces your freedom but um can increase your actual output or at least like what you're managing to achieve. >> So it's kind of like this comparative competitive sort of testosterone maxing thing where you're just like whatever the other guy does I'm going to do more. Mhm. >> Um I think it was in the Horosi episode or something when it came to meditation. It was something like however much everyone else is meditating for inner peace, I'm going to meditate more. And it's like you if you're a hammer, everything is a nail. And so if that's the type of guy you are, you're probably going to achieve a lot of cool stuff. Um but yeah, you might not be the happiest while you're doing it, but you never know, maybe you will be as well >> because the position is always lack. It's always you always feel behind the eightball and you're trying to catch up. Not only do you need to be better than everybody else, but you have set your sights so much higher than them double. >> Yeah. >> That you're always going to be setting a chasing an unrealistic opportunity. >> 100%. And also, you're living in a reactive state, right? Like you're you're not actually affirming something that's like an internally generated idea of what you should be doing with your time. You're just reacting to the environment often times out of like a sense of lack or a fear. I mean, we have these like adaptive personalities that we create where we'll like something bad will happen and then um I don't know, maybe like you're kind of outcast in school. That was my example. And then you kind of create this adaptation which is like okay to avoid that sort of pain, >> you're going to do everything you can to not be in that position again, which often means just doing better than the next guy. Um but the problem you you can end up just getting really good at [ __ ] you don't actually care about. um or making a lot of progress along a dimension that you wouldn't have otherwise. >> What like give me an example. >> Um well, I was just in LA and I feel like this is a hub of that. Um there's a lot of people sort of playing the status game. It seems to be like the the center of the status game in in many ways. Um and often times it's to overcome a sense of lack. Um but you know nature always spoke about like creating your own values. Um and there's kind of a lot of debate over the extent to which you're actually capable of doing that. Um people like Peterson are kind of saying like you can't do it. Young says you can't do it. Um, but I think it's because there's it's not because we're actually confused about what we mean when we say values or like the capacity um or where they come from. It's because we're generally quite confused about this term you like I like what actually is that what's the scope of it and it can kind of expand or contract depending on the context at play. Um, so if you consider you to be like the body that is Chris Williamson, like that body will actually be creating its own values even if they're mimicking other stuff in other people's bodies. Like mirror neurons are still in your head, right? So you're kind of if that's who you are, then you are creating your own values. But the conscious personality, the conscious identity, Chris doesn't have any like top down control over the body. If you did, I could say just pause your heartbeat and you'd be able to pause it. But you can't because it's, you know, nature's quite smart and it realizes that um certain things just shouldn't be within the jurisdiction of >> um the conscious personality. >> What do you think about self-belief or where do you think self-belief comes from? Because it seems there that trying for 20 is inherently uh wrapped up in a high level of self-belief. I can do this thing. even if you're whipping yourself into doing it, right? Even if it's coming from a relatively negative uh fuel source, it seems like that has to be tied up with self-belief. And also in self-belief is the word self, which is what you were just talking about. >> So, what do you think about uh self-belief and its relationship to aiming high? >> Um I did this, you know, the the the quote um like is the juice worth the squeeze? M I I kind of inverted that at one point and said like the the juice isn't a product of the um the sorry the the belief that the juice is worth the squeeze is not a product of the juice or any of the attributes of the juice. >> Um the juice is actually a product of the belief that it's worth the squeeze. And I think that kind of maps on roughly to self-belief where it's like can you actually do something? Um there's like a birectional sort of answer to that question where obviously if you don't believe that you can you're never gonna actually try. Um and then from the opposite direction, um I think yeah, you have to have some level of like you just decide that you actually can and that's the only way that you ever get any evidence that will actually come to serve as proof in the future. Um, I think the fear-based response is to try and wait for the proof to emerge and then you'll start saying it, then you'll start believing it. >> Um, but yeah, it's it's not like it goes proof and then belief or it goes belief and then proof. They're kind of like in a dynamic relationship with each other and that's where you get like downward spirals and upward spirals. >> Of course. Yeah, that's a that's that's a good point that if the world is delivering something to you which confirms your negative self-beliefs, you begin to believe them more which makes you less likely to take action which means that you believe them more. And the same thing happens in reverse too. Uh you've got this good idea which is the line between grandeur and delusions of grandeur is just one good day. And it feels like that's talking about the same thing >> 100%. Yeah. Because like you can have a belief forever and if unless until reality matches it, you can be called delusional and it'll make sense. But you can just have one good day like say you're a trader or an investor or something and like um I've been reading Taleb recently and TB's the perfect example of this, right? Because he had this like strategy for trading in options where he would essentially um take lots of small losses over a long period of time with minimal downside and then there would be massive upside potential when something unexpected happened. And so all he was betting on was something unexpected happening. Um, and he got super rich doing that. And so for the same in in him executing that strategy, there's like the majority of the time he is not actually coming across as a very smart guy. He's just taking losses after loss after loss every day. Um, and so if you just sample select a random day from his entire trading strategy, you might think you might feel justified in saying this guy's a [ __ ] [ __ ] He's just >> Mhm. >> But all it takes is that one good trade, which is the entire [ __ ] purpose of the strategy to begin with >> to then rewrite history and all of a sudden, oh yeah, no, obviously that guy was going to do well. Like he he was he was doing the thing, you know? >> So funny how uh retrospectively we love to make sense of any story like that. Rob Henderson's got this great example where uh he says the duh obviously response that happens when a lot of psychology articles come out is really interesting because first off duh obviously is I had an intuition about this but no one is prepared to hold science and uh modern research to the standards of we don't need to research this we just know it like that's that's taking a step back right to just like intuitive knowing >> um and he uses this wonderful example which I saw happen live, which was there was a study done uh that looked at whether highv value men or low value men I men that were more desirable or less desirable uh were uh more or less misogynistic. And a first iteration of the study or this research came out and said that low value men were more misogynistic. And the internet said, "Duh, obviously these men resent women. They feel like they're entitled because they haven't been given this thing." turned out that that was wrong and it's high value men that were the ones that were most misogynistic and the internet said duh obviously they have got everything laid at their feet already they are actually entitled because of this sort of palatial looking down from on high pedestal that they're on and you go so it's unfalsifiable the obviously thing becomes unfalsifiable and I think it goes to show that we want to try and weave a very neat narrative together we want this sort of perfect sphere and we can sort of roll it along the floor and it doesn't bounce at all and it's it's beautiful and smooth >> yeah the intellect likes straight lines but they never exist in reality and it'll often retrofit them to to adjust whatever kind of thing happened. There was a good quote, I think it was TB as well, something along the lines of like um we are easily tricked into thinking that we almost predicted something when it happened cuz you look back and then obviously it makes sense because you can see all the points. But like at the time you obviously [ __ ] can't. But like yeah, every time something big happens or something unexpects there's a sense like I almost like I almost saw that coming. >> Um >> well everybody's got this sense. It's been stuck in my in my head for about 3 years now. This this line built for more. And uh it's certainly something that I felt when I was in my 20ies, not when I was probably a teenager, but especially as I got to the end of my 20s. I was like, God, this I just I feel like a crab sort of growing up against the my shell. Like I just need there's something that's constraining me and constricting me here and this doesn't feel good. I think a lot of people feel that. A lot of people feel like I'm not where I'm meant to be actualizing my potential. I'm built for more. There is something more out there that I should do. But the another line from one of your videos like what if your dreams are just dreams? What if there isn't any there there? And nobody wants to hear that. Nobody wants to hear be realistic. Don't try harder. Don't commit yourself to this thing. Take less risk. Nobody wants to hear that. And rightly so because I think on average the the sort of people that seek out content like mine and like yours are the sorts of people who already have quite a bit of self-doubt. they already have quite a bit of introspection and rumination and have a tendency toward like high agency but um analysis paralysis which is this sort of brutal middle ground right which is like I can make >> I happen to the world but only if I really really push myself to do it and I'm chronically afraid of making making a mistake and getting it wrong. M yeah, we uh there was a there was a quote you had a while ago. I forgot what it was though. It was something along the same lines. >> Um but yeah, this fear it's kind of sad to to think like you walk around and you get a false picture of how like younger generations are actually doing because the ones that are struggling aren't actually outside. Um so you can go around living life thinking yeah people are roughly okay but there is like millions of young people who are kind of just like dying of thirst for that sense of adventure to like test themselves up against something. Um and you know it's a cocktail of bad conditions in in which there is sufficient ways to sort of sedate yourself and sort of avoid um the pain that comes from like a slow decay. Um and yeah you can get really resentful as as a result of that. I think you know this is something that happened with me to some extent. And it kind of turned into this like slow suicide almost where it was like I'm not actually going to commit to it, but like I'm just going to do everything I possibly can to ensure my own destruction. Like I'm going to go out and do all the drugs. I'm going to go out and, you know, abandon everything that I'm working on. I'm just going to >> um essentially stage like a misguided attempt at rebelling against the harsh conditions of life. >> And it feels like rebellion. It feels like, yeah, why would I go out and and commit to life? Why would I get involved? Why would I participate? Um especially today where it feels like it's kind of the the goal is just ever receding into the distance with like home ownership and like the things people actually want. >> Um is just kind of scooting further and further away and seeming less and less possible. And um yeah, it's a chicken and egg thing. It's like the other thing. It's not like one then the other. It's not like you you you dangle the reward in front of somebody and then they go for it or they go for it first and then the rewards start appearing. It's like a dynamic thing both ways. And like sometimes you just need to like it's like the urge you get when you see somebody in that position. You just want to shake them like as if like um something was out of whack. There's this thing in like um in metallergy where they like heat up metal and in order to make it stronger because the heat will make the atoms like get unlocked from their positions and then they'll settle back into like a firmer position. But you need that like energy. You need that volatility in order to have it. And when you live like every day on repeat and you're just in your mom's basement eating whatever, doing whatever, then yeah, you kind of lack the volatility that acts as the spark to that. And like there's plenty of foder in your soul. There's plenty of timber ready to catch fire. But often times it's like we're actually avoiding the sparks cuz the sparks are often times stresses. They're often things that we don't really want to uh to experience cuz they're uncomfortable. Um but then yeah, you just trade like acute pain for chronic pain. >> Mhm. Yeah. It's a a short amount of discomfort or a lifetime of misery. >> Yeah. >> And Yeah. Well, I suppose it's this sort of comfortable complacency thing, region beta paradox, right? It's not good enough to be good, but it's not bad enough to be bad. And you have this weird prolonged dissatisfaction. >> Do you think that reaches a fever pitch at some point? Do you think it gets bad enough? >> It depends. So, I the region beta thing got I had a few questions on my live tour in Australia last year about this and this guy, it was ballsy. He was like, "Uh, I think I'm stuck in region beta. Should I purposefully make my life worse? You know, should I self-destruct in an attempt to hit rock bottom so I can bounce back out?" I'm watching the Charlie Sheen documentary on Netflix at the moment. Have you seen that? >> You'd love it. Very, very good. >> And um it he has a unique constitution, right? Yeah. >> But still, it certainly seems like there was periods. He he didn't learn consequences was a big thing. Every time that he did something insane, he seemed to land not only on his feet, but on his feet three steps higher than he had been previously. So, he never felt that come into contact with reality. Rock bottom was it wasn't a floor, it was a trampoline. >> And for him, he just kept bouncing higher and higher and higher. Uh but he did when he was in sort of a capable complacency which is still a downward spiral but until he hit rock bottom it was a and this is presumably the life cycle of a lot of addicts as well >> which are like I'm clean I'm clean. I'm clean. I'm a little dirty. I'm a little dirty. I'm a little dirty. Oh [ __ ] And then we go back up. I'm clean again. Clean clean. And then I sort of spiral back. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cuz you're not like just one. You don't you're not just like one person. You're many people inhabiting the same body and they all have their own agenda of what they want to get done, what they want to prioritize. And um and yeah, the the the will to smash loads of cocaine and f cookers is there in those people and it will win occasionally. It will win over time. and like the there's this really interesting idea from nature that's kind of like probably one of the main reasons that I became so OCD about his questions that he asks and like trying to understand them or come up with answers to them. Um, which is like that question of the the the I what is the I what is the U is something that is like always taken my interest because my dad was this non-duality speaker who speaks about that type of stuff a lot. Um, and also it's just a weird thing. I mean like you can Viki gives a an example where he like the spit that's in your mouth is kind of you. If you spit it into a clean cup it's not you anymore. So the idea of drinking it again is disgusting. >> But nothing's changed about what it was. It hasn't got dirtier or anything. But just physically as soon as it exits you that's not me anymore. But while it's there it's kind of a part of you. And so this like sense of self can be very >> sort of transient. It can move around a lot. M >> um and you know the idea history is written by the victors. >> Mhm. >> So nature kind of took that not literally that quote but like this is a good way of explaining it. He took that and applied it to the sense of self where those drives like the the urge to [ __ ] and do cocaine versus the urge to start a family and all the various different wills that you have within you. Um they kind of will battle for like executive authority over your actions. And then whichever one wins writes the history and that is what the sense of self is. So when you say I you're actually that's just the the winning drive rewriting history to say that was me all along. sequence of victors saying this is what happened before us. Great idea. [ __ ] it. Paul, >> who's the trauma dude that human had on his show? He said he was the smartest guy in in terms of raw intellect he's ever spoken to. Uh he was on he wrote a great book about trauma. He's big trauma guy. Um he taught me on the show that um we can retrospectively rewrite things from before a specifically traumatic incident, but the same thing would probably occur in smaller amounts if it was less traumatic. I said when I was 20 years old, I got hit head-on by a snow plow at 60 mph on the A1 from Newcastle to Scotland. So it's a single lane contra flow at 60 mph. Like a classic A- road. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Uh walked away from it. um but had travel anxiety for a little while which I came up I I overcame after a couple of months but if I was on a a road that had contraflow so no central reservation and traffic's coming in the other direction the Tin Bridge in Newcastle is a perfect [ __ ] example of this and uh it made me nervous and uh what he said was with some people if they didn't get over the travel anxiety if they were more susceptible to it or or it was worse or whatever it reached critical mass Not only would they stop driving because it made them uncomfortable, but if someone was to say to them, "Well, you used to love driving. Used to we, you remember before the crash, you used to love." No, no, no. I've never liked driving. >> Yeah. >> So, they rewrite who they were prior to the incident, their capacity to be able to see uh either side of the war being lost and the victor of travel anxiety winning, that doesn't exist anymore. Does that make I think that's aligned with what you're talking about. >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. It's impossible to sort of see yourself fully as somebody else. Like we have this capacity for empathy. We can feel feelings other people. We can imagine what it would be like if we were in their position. You can't really imagine what it would be like to actually be them. It's just it doesn't >> Well, you also struggle to imagine what it was like to be you in the past. I've always thought it would be such a great idea if we could make a kind of like a a photo camera but for mental states. If I could go back and visit what it was like to be Chris at 27 and 17, >> how cool would that be? Oh my god, do you remember when I used to be captured by that? I was so distracted or I was so focused. I was so peaceful. I was so in chaos. And you know, you could just go back and visit that like take a a mental screenshot and then reinhabit it for a little bit because it's kind of the same question as when did you get older, when did you get fat? You say one day at a time. And it's the same thing with it. When did you become peaceful or when did you become anxious or when did you get travel discomfort? One day at a time. And even when it's a very acute situation, your ability to imagine what it was like before is is pretty difficult. >> Yeah. Which is why we also tend not to think that we'll ever change into going into the future >> because we don't see the change happening in front of us. Yeah. Or in the past. >> In the past as well. It's like I think if you did have that machine where you could just like zip back to like 20 years ago, you'd probably just not believe it. I think you would you'd sit there and you'd kind of be like, >> "Oh, that's good." >> H no, there's no way this was actually me. Cuz like we >> got it wrong. There must be something wrong. >> There's something wrong with the machine. Um Jonathan height has another cool idea um about like this sort of uh retrofitting rationalizations for like moral intuitions and like that's another example of it where you can be fully convinced he gives a great example where but you know the can't you thing that I explained earlier where it was like can can you just not >> um so that was an example from his book where his wife came in and was like can you just not leave like the um the dog food on the table where the baby food is supposed to be and he immediately invented the story of like I was doing I I was walking the dog, feeding the baby, and doing the dishes all at the same time. Like I was kind of multitasking because I was in like a rush because of X reason. And like he came out with it and believed it himself. And it was only when he was read like writing the book later where he thought back against that cuz it was such like a unremarkable part of his day. It was just the type of conversation that goes on 100,000 times a day. >> Um and you look back and he was like actually that just that wasn't true. there was a sequence like I I walked a dog and then I did that thing and then I did this thing. But in order to make like a justification like the narrative you end up coming up with is one that like fits the the intuition that you have which is I shouldn't be getting told off for this. >> Yeah. Do you think the the fundamental sort of underlying principle there is I am right or I am in the right somehow. >> Yeah. And it's impossible to see past that even if you I think even when you believe that you are seeing past it. It's kind of like um it's like a sort of psychological slight of hand thing that's you're like simulating it. Like this is a really autistic um metaphor, but like on a computer you can have a virtual machine which runs like another operating system on top of it. It's kind of like that. It's like not actually at the base layer, but you can simulate what it would be like, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're not fully engaging with it, but you're imagining what it would be like if that was true. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a cool that's a cool way to >> and I think that happens with a lot of like advice stuff when people hear what like I made a video kind of like criticizing my the the thing that I'm doing which is making like advice videos >> and the thing that I'm doing. >> Yeah, both of us. >> Um and >> yeah, one of the main points in that was just that like it it's very possible to listen to people talking about something that you want to do and or like help you reason about like your priorities and stuff and then it feels like you're actually doing it. or when people give dating advice about like um don't uh yeah don't be too pushy or something like that like it you listen to that and imagine what it would be like to be them which is this like virtual machine simulation you're doing but like because you think in pictures and pictures create feelings like you get the feelings from it too and that feeling is often then mistaken for like a inner change >> when often times like inner change I think it rarely comes from like just words and mental pictures it has to come from like actual experiences. >> Yeah. Talking about the thing and doing the thing. Vive for the same resources. Allocate yours appropriately. >> Right. >> And Dr. K, who was on the show yesterday, uh has this wonderful explainer about venting, which is uh people like to vent, but one of the problems with venting is that anger is a really motivating emotion. Anger, frustration, bitterness, resentment, like me, you know, those sorts of things, they really galvanize you to to get going. M >> um and if you vent, you actually blow off some of that energy that could have been used to put it into action, >> right? >> Uh so again, talking about the thing, inventing about the thing or doing the thing, inventing about the thing, v for the same resources, allocate yours appropriately. And if you're using, it's the same as >> people who struggle with sleep, especially with sleep latency, falling to sleep. Matthew Walker's advice is just don't nap. People think I only got four hours of sleep last night. I should nap this this afternoon. But you build up sleep pressure and that sleep pressure is good because it's going to help you actually fall asleep. Obviously there's, you know, caveat caveat, but uh largely this is the same thing. And I think a venting like a pressure release valve for some of the action that you could take. Well, yeah, okay, maybe you want to connect with your friend and and and be told, it's all right. You got it. Like you've got nothing to worry about. on the flip side that you just kind of got rid of a little bit of that and you got a bit Yeah, I feel better about this thing now. It's like maybe you didn't need to feel better. Maybe you needed to feel [ __ ] motivated. >> Yeah. >> And I wonder whether the online advice uh I thought that essay was was fantastic. Uh by the way, dude, I thought it was really really good. G give me your thesis. What what do you think about the world of modern self-help advice on the internet? I think we've culturally sort of mistaken unpleasant experiences for harm. We've sort of made a false equivocation that like there this goes deep into like the kind of the fundamental values that you have. But like I think largely we're in a hedonistic culture and that's not to say that everyone's running around doing whatever they want. It's just to say that pleasure and pain are paramount considerations. And if the if pleasure and pain are sort of the only values that we're still holding on to, then anything that's painful is harmful. And we're kind of unable to distinguish between the two. Like you see on university campuses all the time where like safe like I need to feel safe and you often get it in relationships as well where the word safe isn't quite it shouldn't really be there. Um but we make this false equivocation and then what comes downstream of that is you know it there's something kind of a bit messy about the incentives of the internet when it comes to advice. um people that have done a very good job at coming up with retrofitting narratives to their experiences that optimize for pleasure um and against pain uh tend not to have truth as like an anchoring point. >> Can you give an example? Have you ever had a conversation with somebody that just went through a breakup and they're sort of talking about what happened and they're like, "Can you believe they they did this thing and then they did the other thing with the person and and they did the" And you're like nodding, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But in your head, you're thinking, "Well, actually kind of maybe that was actually the right thing for them to do." And the reaction that you're seeming to be okay with on your on your side isn't >> adding up and this story you're writing is a bit fishy. And so you're like not convinced, but the other person is fully convinced. They are genuinely they're not lying to you. >> They're lying to themselves and they're fully convinced by their lie. Um and so those sorts of stories that people create, uh they're adaptive. They're they're there to to kind of avoid discomfort and often times to avoid like uncomfortable implications about ourselves. Um, and then you can take that sort of story and naturally people become very enthusiastic when they find a story that rewrites the history of a painful experience such that it's not as painful anymore to think back on. Obviously, they're going to be enthusiastic about that. And that enthusiasm often translates to blah blah blah blah blah and they're posting it and that that video then gets filtered to other people who have had similar painful experiences because they've kind of got this like if it's if the story if the narrative is kind of abstract enough and zoomed out enough then you can kind of like take what they said about that thing about their relationship that they're not saying was a part of their relationship or derived from it but they've made it really abstract. So now you >> It's like horoscopes in a way. It's sufficiently vague that everybody can insert their own story into >> Yeah. Yeah. Like cold reading like bluish brownish greenish eyes. Like you kind of just take the the part that you like and go, "Ah, yes, of course." >> Um >> and that is at least what you see as a good chunk of online advice. >> Yeah. Like probably the va the vast majority of it. Not in terms of what not if you're measuring it by like what gets consumed. I think people have half decent [ __ ] detectors generally, especially adults. That's a good That's a really good way to put it. >> Um, but in terms of like the actual advice that gets posted, like God, I live in Bali at the moment. You go to Bali, there is thousands of coaches that shouldn't be coaching. >> Like, and and you know, it's you can make the point that okay, maybe like they're actually like good at giving advice, they're just not good at implementing it themselves. And like just because a doctor is fat doesn't mean he's not good at being a doctor. Like you can make that whole point and that's fair. But I think in lots of these things, they're so especially on like the the dating side, it's so intimate and raw like with your emotional centers that it's it's hard to separate >> which should be treated with caution as well. Believe >> 100%. >> You know, um I think it's a good point. I think the word that keep keeps coming up for me is cope, >> right? >> That this is just retrofitting cope. Yeah. >> And and you know, cope has got a bad rap. Like a lot of the time you do need to cope with problems and maybe you shouldn't >> engage with the full raw 4K high bit rate difficult thing that is in front of you now or that happened to you yesterday. Perhaps a little bit of anesthetic for this while to bring you into land would be a good way a good healthy way for you to do this. It's okay. You can just like cry on the couch and watch Netflix and eat ice cream for a couple of weeks. That's fine. Like it's okay. And then after then you can begin to engage when you've had a little bit of psychic distance from this thing. Perhaps now we can engage >> with that challenge. But yeah, I think you know I certainly traffic in internet advice. One of the things that you know you'll be episode 105 or something right on this show. Definitely what I've tried to do at least partly successfully I think is regularly identify my own ignorance regularly say when I change my mind or that I get things wrong. So sort of publicly state I used to believe this thing and now I believe this thing and and and and that's changed which helps to keep you uh like >> it's not intellectually humble because that doesn't that that sounds like it's something that's noble. It's like a intellectually aware of your own like idiocy would be maybe a more accurate way to put it. Like you just put your ignorance up front. >> Uh and that helps you to not cling too tightly to ideas which has been pretty good. Uh, and on top of that, the an easy way to do this, at least as far as I've found, as things change over time, concede that my strategy or whatever it is that I'm doing or whatever I agree with doesn't need to be right forever. It's what I'm trying right now. And sometimes it was right for right then. They've got this idea that um, don't model the result, model the rise. And this is you look at people that are successful and they talk about X work life balance, the importance of their family, how their dog walks and lying in a hammock is their performance enhancer. And you say, "Oh, that's great." Like you know me starting out on my journey like Warren Buffett, I should just read books and and the the FT all day. And you go, "Well, what did he do when he started?" No, he was a hustler. You know, he didn't sleep much. He didn't have good work life balance. He didn't look after his body. He didn't have a say, you know, whatever. Like >> I think looking at what people did when they were at your stage, not what they do now. And this is the issue that most of the people who have the platform to be able to give lots of advice have only reached that because of being successful. But as they're more successful, that makes them more out of touch with most of the people who are consuming the content. They are an outlier by design, which means that the things they now do are not strategies that are accessible, applicable to people that are watching or them when they were in the position of the people that were watching. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. And then they look back and they say like, "Oh, no. I was never like that." It's the same thing we were talking about earlier. There's like a >> I'm not sure on that. At least >> I think if you if you like So, what did you do when you were my stage? They would go >> actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did do that. I did. You're right. You're right. I did send the [ __ ] out of it. I did burn the candle at three ends. Like, okay, >> there we go. But I do the model the rise, not the result is just a really lovely reminder. Like if you get the opportunity to sit down with Warren Buffett, like don't ask him how he spends his day, that's of no use to you until you're 90 and a billionaire. Like what did you do when you were 31? Like can you remember like what was that like? What would you do if you were at X stage? Cuz that's the most applicable. And that's one of the issues that people who are super successful really struggle. So leaving a trail of breadcrumbs which is the advantage of writing regularly, talking regularly and recording it etc. is I can't really recall the challenges not viscerally like you were saying I can run the virtual computer of I was interested in productivity when I was 32 years old whatever but >> I actually have this little time capsule of well look at what I was obsessed about for 50 episodes. Nearly half of them were about space repetition and the ebbing house forgetting curve and studying and whatever it might be. Oh, and then I moved on to this and I moved on to that. So with the internet advice thing, I think one of the issues and a dynamic that I know you've talked about before is that um certainty is a proxy for expertise that someone who's ardent about this is the way looks like they know what they're talking about because most of us are chronically uncertain. And if you see somebody who's unequivocating in their perspective, you assume that that's because they have expertise and they know this [ __ ] super deep. Maybe they are. Fluency is not a proxy for truthfulness and certainty is not a proxy for expertise. >> But we can't help but think, well, [ __ ] If if I was that certain and unequivocating about something, I would have to know it inside out by front and back. You know, I'd have 20 year career of understanding this stuff. That's exactly the way I need to have my relationship. That's exactly the way that I should train and eat and sleep and do whatever else. >> Yeah. Yeah, we're not really good at um understanding that other people can be very different from us. And just because you wouldn't do something, you wouldn't act that certain if you weren't certain, doesn't mean other people won't. And also like this the selfdeception thing. Sometimes they truly believe they're certain. And that's why I think this show has done really well is cuz you haven't really been a fingerpointing teacher. You've been, you know, the whole building in public thing. You've been learning in public and people watching learning out loud. >> Yeah. and people watch that and they learn alongside you and um it kind of did you see like there's this Michelle Thomas way of um learning languages. It's great. It kind of like separates you from the language learning process by uh their audio tapes and there'll be somebody teaching another student and then there'll be a third person that's like kind of helping them along and you just listen to this student learn. Um, and the whole kind of prompt they give you at the beginning is like do not try to remember any of this. Like don't try to learn, don't try to learn the language. Just listen to this other person learning it and listen to the way they get confused and stumble when they're trying to say a certain thing. And like your brain maps the language so much faster. No way. Doing it that way. Yeah. >> That's so cool. What's that called? >> Michelle Thomas. They're like they were quite famous a while back I think in the language learning things. But like it works way better than Duolingo and stuff like that where you're I mean I did it for like a few weeks and then moved on cuz Google Translate exists. But um >> but yeah, it's kind of a similar thing where I think if you try if you're like really trying to do something often you can like sort of get in your own way, trip up over your own feet in a lot of ways. >> Um but yeah, no, the show works really well for that reason. I think >> I hope so. It's a thinly veiled autobiography of of [ __ ] that I've been struggling with and uh I think I'm good at finding talent early and I'm good at finding ideas early. Um you're one of them. You know, I've got a list. I got a list. I did it on a vlog the other day. You Dwarash Patel, although he's massive now, but I met him the first day I ever moved to Austin. I flew in on the Saturday and I met him on the Sunday. He's now like a million subs. Joe Folly who does unsolicited advice. I'm a little late to the party with Joe. Um Alex Okconor I was listening to in 2018 and we became friends since 2019. Yeah, exactly. Um yourself Elliot Buick. Do you know Elliot? He does uh uh um Next Generation podcast. Dylan O Sullivan. Dillano on Substack. [ __ ] money. Like just this like super reader Irish artist living in Greenwich now just north of New York. He's part of Jim or Shaughnessy's like weird commune of [ __ ] super geniuses writing stuff and editing books. So my point being that um being able to see ideas early and go like that's interesting, I'll investigate it, I think is is good. But another um separation that's interesting is this line between intellectual avoidance and true introspection. Mhm. >> And I think that um using learning as a prophylactic against actually having to do stuff or having to engage fully with the discomfort of having not done stuff is this weird it's good for you, it's better for you than probably scrolling Tik Tok, but then if it actually stops you from going out and doing something, maybe it's even worse for you. You know what I mean? All of that. There's a um if you like if you select a bunch of like again it's sort of in the mole Sophia so they have to be kind of like political statements or something but you give people a bunch of statements and tell them to write a list of pros and cons as fast as they can and you time it um the people who have higher IQs um will be able to write a whole lot more. So firstly they're right um whether or not they agree with the sentiment or not of the ones that they agree. So that they'll have two lists of arguments for each statement, for and against. Um, and people with higher IQs, there's a direct correlation between your IQ and the amount of for arguments you can make, >> but not against if you're for it. And there's a correlation between the amount of against arguments you can make, but not for ones. So basically, whatever intuition or belief that you have about that certain thing, your IQ just makes you a lot better at coming up with reasons why you believe what you already believe, it doesn't actually make you much better at arguing from different perspectives. Like you really have to take the time >> to like set your intention to do exactly that and try to like distance yourself and your own sort of like um dog in the fight in order to be able to do that. But that's not what people do when they think. When people think they're in the shower, they're scrubbing their balls. They're not, you know, actually thinking, you know what, I'm going to do I'm going to do 30 minutes of considering this even >> disagreeing with myself. >> Yeah, I'm going to disagree with myself this evening. Like, no one does that. It just doesn't Why would you need to do that? >> Um, but yeah, it's kind of scary when you think that like, you know, that's the double-edged sword of intelligence is that it can make you it can help you with foresight. It can make you better at modeling things. It has all of the obvious benefits, but when you just have more horsepower up there, you become a lot better at bullshitting yourself. >> Um, >> it becomes an impediment to seeing the truth as opposed to assistance to it. >> 100%. And that's one thing I would actually like I I do try like I want to say to people who are like sort of younger and are like in that basement situation where they're not going out is I think like we can often get this sense that there's like a an insufficiency within you especially around intelligence. It's like people think I'm just not smart enough. >> Um but it's almost in all cases it's character that actually correlates cuz there's so many like super smart people who just do nothing. Um and so like you should optimize for your character, not for your intelligence and like try not to be misguidedly pessimistic about the extent to which your intelligence puts a ceiling on your potential. >> Didn't you try nihilism for a while? >> Yeah. How'd that go? >> Not great. Um, yeah, it's uh that that was sort of the slow offing myself period when I was like a teenager. >> Well, give me give me the story of what happened with your school career and the subsequent spirals. >> Right. Yes. Um, so I never like really enjoyed school. I didn't fit in too well. Um, so I would always like come up with different ways to um sort of convince myself to go to school often by like sandwiching school in between two things I was excited about, which could be like a bunch of random [ __ ] It was video games at one point. In primary school, it was uh unicycling at one point. I would unicycle to my primary school um cuz it was something different and exciting. And uh eventually like when I got to secondary school, it was parkour. Um, so I was doing like a bunch of parkour going to competitions and stuff after a while and yeah, I landed on my spleen on a bar of scaffolding um at this competition which had like a bunch of doctors then uh sort of a couple days later coming and trying to convince me to do like a a CT scan um to see what was going on with my spleen, whether or not there was a tear in the lining um which is what they were worried about. But um if they did find a tear in the lining, they wouldn't have been able to actually do anything anyway. They were just covering their asses legally. Um cuz if there was a tear, you wouldn't operate in case it bursts. You would just put somebody in a bed and watch them. So like, can I be in a bed at home? And they were like, well, yeah, technically, but you know, it's very dangerous. And they applied a lot of pressure. I had like six different doctors come in and try and convince me I was going to die. Um which really >> 12 years old? >> Yeah, I was 12. So that really brought mortality like right up front. It became like a state I was currently in rather than like a event in the future. um which is I think how people generally perceive it. It's like an event that like your death is an event in the future versus your mortality being a state you're in like you're in the process of dying right now. Um and that all became like immediate way too young of an age and sort of I freaked out a little bit. Um but one of the side effects of that was that whenever I felt like I was wasting time, I couldn't really see the the end or the purpose of a certain action, it would like trigger that anxiety. I felt in the hospital. Um I felt like I was sort of like dying again. Um so yeah, I ended up going to see like a child psychologist and stuff to make sure I wasn't completely insane, but they were just like, "Yeah, leave school." Um that was what I was pushing for already. Um and they kind of were like, "Yeah, it makes sense." So yeah, I wrote this like document trying to convince my my dad and my mom to let me just drop out. Um and >> I think you're glossing over. Wasn't it like a big PowerPoint presentation? Yeah, it was like 22 pages. Yeah, like uh like a Yeah, I mean it worked. I think they were more probably not because of the content of what was in it. It was clearly written by a 12-year-old, but the fact that I had gone and done it off my own impetus was like I think enough for them to kind of be like at least take the question seriously. >> What was your proposal? >> Um it was just like a constellation of different points around like mainly trying to outline the pros and cons and quell their biggest fears. But >> but what did you want? What was the outcome that you wanted? >> I wanted to learn stuff that I was genuinely interested in um that I would actually remember and that would actually be useful in my >> This was going to be self-directed. >> Um originally the idea was actually to do the curriculum at home and get through it as quickly as possible and then start learning stuff I was interested in. That didn't go too well cuz again when I got the textbooks I'd started to get the anxiety from the hospital experience. So eventually we were just like okay we have to ditch that entirely and um yeah so I ended up just learning about things that I was actually interested in. Um which has worked out better than expected. You know TB said uh uh everything that he learned in school and this is a guy that did like he did the degrees but he also spent an additional 30 hours a week reading for like 10 years. And he said everything he learned off of his own interests he remembers but everything he learned teologically which is just to like achieve a different end you forget because once that purpose is served your brain deletes the information and that was happening at school all the time. So I kind of felt like school was wasting my time. So I wanted to leave and do it myself. Um and yeah read the document sent that to them and yeah ended up leaving. Um, and then I I think it it kind of went okay for a little bit and then a couple years later like you you know that experience people get when they leave university and they're like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm alive. This is the real world. I have to figure out where I'm going and what I care about and who I am." Um, that kind of happened like a way probably too young age. Um, so yeah, after like a few about a year of like questioning everything, um, that inevitably leads you towards nihilism because the method generates its own frustration. It's like if you're trying to test whether or not water can be carried by getting a net and putting the net in the ocean and lifting it up and going, "Well, no, see, every time I bring up the net, there's no water in it." And then you kind of like get a false conclusion. um when you obsessively question why you do things, you can end up in that exact spot. Um where you just end up thinking, okay, everything is pointless cuz I'm only doing this to do that and I'm doing that to do that and I'm doing that to die or like there's nothing per you kind of get confused in a way, which is I think what nihilism is. I think it is a confusion. Um and so >> you're what like 15 now? >> Yeah, I was it was yeah 15 when it started going tits up. Yeah. Um, and then I found out about this awesome stuff called weed. Um, which is great and alcohol and parties and that was a good anesthetic to the sort of existential questions and you know as we were saying about the upwards and downward spirals that kickstarted a downward one for the first time in my life which you know then served as further evidence that life sucks and it's all evil and I started to develop this sort of adversarial relationship with reality itself where it was like reality and the conditions I found myself in called life are sort of out to get me. They're like problematic. Um, and yeah, I think that sort of became the fuel for me to spin up various narratives that justified that sort of nihilistic hedonistic obsession with pleasure and pain. Um, which drugs obviously fit really well into. Um, and yeah, it went on like that for a couple years. the obsession with pleasure and pain. Was that just obsession with running away from pain? >> Mhm. Yeah. It's kind of one slider in a way. Like the further down you are, the more painful. The further up, the more >> I think there's some there's certainly some people, you're right, by design, if you are in pleasure, you tend to not be in pain. But I think there's some people that are pleasure focused running toward a thing. Some people who are anti-pane focused, running away from a thing. >> Yeah. Yeah, you can be motivated by the negative or the positive of any value judgment. Um, there's another one of nature's ideas that interested me. You can value judgment can spawn out of the negative where you say that is bad, therefore everything that's not like that is good. >> Or that is good, therefore everything that's not like that is bad. >> Mhm. >> It's kind of the same thing. So you end up in a similar position but one is much more um kind of uh anti-life itself which is where you look at the conditions you're in and you and you say so much pain that is bad therefore whatever gives pleasure is good >> and then you chase pleasure in whatever way Charlie Sheen style and it just goes wrong. >> You were a young Charlie at this stage I guess just using slightly cheaper drugs. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Uh okay. So what you're 16 now than what? Yeah. 16. Um, it kind of just like Yeah, it just continued like and just got worse and worse for a couple of years. Like I >> What does worse and worse mean? >> Just like worse drugs. Um, worse friends. >> How about drugs? What drugs? >> Not like meth and heroin or anything, but you know, uh, a fair degree of psychedelics and cocaine at one point. And that was sort of right at the end where I was like reaching this fever pitch where it was like there was a fork in the road. And it was like okay either either I have like some radical change in the way that I live or I am like committing to never experiencing the things that I was so passionate about experiencing when I was a kid. Um and that was around when I was 18. So right when it became legal to drink alcohol. Um, I had that moment and it was like probably partially because it was legal at that point which made it a lot easier again. So you can drink on your own then and that's not good. Um, so yeah, there was kind of like a come to Jesus moment at that point. >> It's a strange It must have been a strange uh place to find yourself in that you hadn't fitted in at school. You find this solution which you have to write a 20page document in order to be able to acquire and then the outcome of that is not liberated perfect selfdirected learning. It's oh [ __ ] I took this risk and this risk didn't pay off and maybe things are even worse now. >> What did that teach you about risk and taking risk? Did it make you more concerned about doing it? Um, in some sense, yeah, I think I've become slightly more risk averse as I've got older, but only slightly. Like, it sounds like your tolerance for risk was pretty high already. >> Yeah, I always >> maybe brought you back down to a acceptable range. >> Maybe. I'm still probably not quite in the acceptable range. I mean like um yeah, I've always kind of wanted to jump in the deep end uh with things and then like figured that's the quickest way to learn to swim and like cut burn the boats type attitude. Um most of the time like the first psychedelic I did was Iaska. Um >> [ __ ] me. How did you get a hold of Iaska in the UK? >> Uh there's people that do like retreats like >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm on the mailing list for a couple of them still. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it was the whole like ritual and all of that. And >> but this means that you've researched it on the internet, managed to find a forum, that's given you the private link that's got you on the email list, that's given you the listing of where it's >> sort of I actually met somebody in London who knew somebody who hosted >> Same thing though, right? Yeah. It's just the real world equivalent of that digitally. >> Yeah. So, um that that blew my brain out of my head and probably delayed the process of realizing my trajectory was offkilter >> a little bit. um but also had incurred massive benefits and I think the entire arc that I went on during that period of time is probably where I learned some of the most important things um because I was in direct contact with like my own psychology because there's nothing that will reveal to you the ways in which you're capable of bullshitting yourself more than addiction. Like it is the crucible of [ __ ] M >> um and yeah, I have it's an intuition, but I feel like the stuff that I did learn through that period are they've proved to be so far and probably will continue to be like invaluable going forwards. And it's also got that whole thing out of my system. I opened the door went, "Oh, fuck." Closed it and I've got the rest of my life. >> What was on the other side of the door? everything I described, you know, just like a slow death where you're seeking your own destruction um subconsciously to some degree >> and like everything that goes wrong as a result of that feeds back into the loop and becomes evidence that um everything sucks and you're right to feel feel angry about the world. Um >> do you see why people become apathetic and resentful? >> 100%. I've been there, you know, 100%. Um, it's almost like more of a miracle that people don't in in some cases. There's a lot to be resentful about. Like there's many ways that you can interpret life that lead to the conclusion that, you know, >> it's pointless and unfair. >> It's pointless. It's unfair. And you're the foot of some kind of cosmic joke. I think lots of people feel that way. I I definitely felt that way. >> Yeah. Me too. Me too. For a very long time. Uh, and still a lot a lot of the time now. I think at least for me the weird thing a few a few of the strange things that were formative around the same time that you were going through that was being an only child, >> right? >> And also being very unpopular in school. >> Yeah. >> Because if you've got those two things together, there is no safe base. There's no sort of foundation that feels like someone's got my back. >> I have to have my back, which means that I keep secrets. I have shame. I have stuff that's just for me because nobody else would understand. And if I was to tell them, they wouldn't even What are they going to do? Oh, mom's just going to make a a big song and dance. She'll go into school and tell them about the bullying or tell them about the this thing or tell them about the that. So, you're like, I'll I'll just deal with it. Like, I'll become insular and I'll look after it myself. >> And yeah, the um I always had this this line, I keep using it a lot about the idea of a personal curse. the fact that I don't know the psychology of other people, which means that I believe a lot of the mental pathologies I have are unique challenges that only I face >> like this personal curse. No one else on the planet feels this thing, has this doubt, has this shame, it manifests in this way, thinks that thought. >> And one of the brilliant things that I think about exists in longer form conversations like this is not really to do with the big ideas that people come up with, but the throwaway lines that are sort of like filler >> that explains where somebody was at a certain time. Mel Robbins had this line. I was preparing to speak to somebody, Dr. Paul Ki, [ __ ] trauma guy. I knew it would come back to me. Maybe it was Paul. I can't remember. And she said in the back of her mind, her whole life, she felt like someone was always mad at her. M >> she just had this sense. My whole life >> I'd always felt like somebody was mad at me, like I'd done something wrong >> and someone was angry about it, >> right? >> And I was like, and it was a a tossway line. It wasn't the thing. It wasn't even the thing in between. It was like just this random filler sentence that she said. >> And you know, that happened over and over again. It happened with Peterson. It happened with Rogan. It happened with Naval Ravocant. It happened with Alander Boton from the School of Life. And that sense at least you're less alone than you thought you were >> is a big source of comfort for a lot of people. >> I think >> holy [ __ ] that person who seems to be at least remotely put together in a manner that I'm not, >> right? Because I'm deficient, I am flawed, I am broken, >> right? uh that person, even if they're some unknown guy on a podcast or or some random clip on TikTok, oh [ __ ] that means it's not just me. And I think that, you know, you can feel when you think it's not just me. Like your whole [ __ ] nervous system just releases a little bit because it's not you're not the foot of some great cosmic joke. >> This is an an endemic part of being a sensitive human. >> And >> oh well, at least there's two of us. >> Yeah. Yeah. And as soon as you say at least there's two of us, you immediately infer there's probably millions. >> Okay. It's not just me. >> Yeah. I remember when I was like at the bad like right at the fever pitch of it all. I remember sitting on the couch and there was like some news thing going on and I just felt this [ __ ] gulf of distance between me and the well presentable news anchors on the television. It was just like they came from a different universe almost and they were like >> they were like the nondeffective puppets that got manufactured and actually went into production and there was like me this sort of defective one that was like sort of there's a a book notes from underground by uh doski that captures this exact sentiment perfectly. Um, highly recommend reading it where it basically just delves into the psychology of of resentment and and the weird shapes that it can take in your own psyche and the conclusions it can lead you to and just the sentiments, the kind of the smell of it. >> Mhm. >> And it's not fun to be on that side. And do you think maybe like that experience was the the negative value judgment? That's bad. Therefore, that learning about human nature good. >> M maybe. I mean, it took a long time to percolate, dude. Uh I I really tried to hit all of the different macronutrients of uh where modern society tells a young man that he should get success from. Before I was like, [ __ ] maybe I'm gonna have to develop myself. It just wasn't something I considered. Even Even my training program was done very much to try and get people to admire me or like me or something. And this wasn't even as cool as I know it's going to be hot. It was much more fear-based. It was like I am so insufficient and so broken and so unlovable and unlikable and unwanted by the world that I need to be able to be a bear juggling on a unicycle at the same time in order like please please please assuage my deep feelings of insecurity and inferiority. If only I can be sufficiently impressive and and smooth and good-looking and successful and well-known and popular andah, maybe the world will accept me. Because it hadn't happened before when I was like trying to be me, whatever that was. I'm like, okay, me is unacceptable. >> That's an unacceptable human. I should not try and be me. Did that in school didn't work. Like that that I I evidently I need to perform. I have to perform. And after a while, you end up uh gaining momentum for the persona, not the person, which means that not only have you uh built lots and lots of layers of sort of selfdeception and mistruth and and um perverse incentives on top of who you are. So digging back down to find out who that person is. Like working out who you truly are is actually really kind of a hard thing to do. People say, "Oh, it should be the most obvious thing in the world." It's like there's all of these layers that you've built on top of it like performance and expectation and social recognition and all this stuff. Not only that, but even if you did know where it was that you had to get to, people expected this other thing of you. People expected you to show up as for me the sort of big name on campus, party boy, club promoter person, stood in the front door, you know, runs the big events, knows everybody, has this massive afro, does the thing like he's the guy. And that means that the gulf between the person that you truly are, which is being increasingly hidden, and the person that you're showing up as is getting wider and wider, even as you don't really actually know it. >> And um one of the things I realized is that that's why if you're playing a persona, praise never really comes into contact with you because people aren't applauding you, they're applauding the role that you played. And you know that you've basically super secret squirrel technique fugazied these people into like you will like me, you will like me, let me do the thing so you will like me. This is why the pickup artist movement I think was fundamentally a fail because what it taught men was in you can get women to sleep with you if you are so not yourself that you're basically an actor. And what's the subtext that that teaches you about your level of selfworth >> just to be able to show up openly in the world? Yeah, >> you are not right. You are not enough. You're flawed, broken, insufficient. And uh yeah, that was that was definitely a big a big lesson that I took from that. And you um it's all well and good saying, well, you know, it propelled me to learn about human nature and to be a it's like it took [ __ ] 15 years. >> Yeah. >> Like in order for me to even get pull my head out of my ass from that. So it wasn't a it wasn't a quick trajectory. >> No. Sometimes like those learning arcs people go on will be until they're 80 and they they only have the aha when they're 80. >> Um doesn't make the aha less valuable. Just makes the journey longer. >> Mhm. >> Do you think you posted something on Instagram the other day that [ __ ] was great. >> Kind of similar to what I was saying about the you at the beginning about true self. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Um, when something kind of affirms uh a moral stance that we have in somebody else, we say that's their true self. >> Mhm. >> And when it's different, we say they're not themselves anymore. >> Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> How does that gel with what you were just saying about like feeling like you were going in an inauthentic direction? Like where do you think that sense actually comes from of inauthenticity? Cuz like you can't really pinpoint it with words. Words are often times like a terrible tool for most jobs, but like it feels like you can you can not in the moment, but retroactively you can tell that something was off, but in the moment you're convinced. And so that brings in the question that we had earlier about like if you are just retrofitting narratives, then is that >> whoever the victor was is the one that >> whoever Yeah, exactly. So it's like, oh that was inauthentic. But like I don't know like you can make that case but it does it really feels like there is some like inner [ __ ] detector which means there must be in a [ __ ] right. >> Yeah that's a that's a really good point. So the uh essay that I wrote basically explained how we tend to see the best in our allies and the worst in our enemies. And that our allies making an error is some sort of uh loss of their self and our uh enemies uh doing well is some sort of aberration or some sort of like weird deviation from who they truly are. >> And uh that when it comes to the way that we see ourselves too, typically it's the fundamental attribution error, right? Like I cut that person off in traffic because I'm late. They cut me off because they're a prick. Yeah. Um it's b it's that but for everything that we do all the way down. Um you are right though when it comes to authenticity. What does it mean to say that this is my true self? Uh given that it is constantly being rewritten and we're immersive of the environment around us and social conditioning and norms and all the rest of the stuff. At least for me it's a good point to make that >> uh cognitively top down trying to say this is who I am. >> Yeah. doesn't really seem to be able to capture the question because if you explain why, if you ask why sufficient times, it gets back to something like it feels right. It feels like me. Usually, it tends to be a bit upward aiming. And I think that that's why when you hear people who are drug addicts or sort of down on their luck and they say, "It's who I really am." it that whenever I see that on documentaries, you know, movies and stuff like that, that really sort of strikes at my heart because that's, you know, somebody who has embodied their downward trajectory and taken it as a s a part of their sense of self and they believe it. Maybe only in that moment, you know, I'm sure that maybe at some points in your downward spiral, you thought this is who I am, but you know, you've also got this upward aiming, this high sort of uh belief thing going on, too. So these two things are coming into conflict. >> You know what's fascinating about that is maybe counterintuitively the the moment where I said this is who I am that was actually the inflection point where it started getting better. >> Um I think it was at that point it was undeniable that that was at least an aspect of my character. Mhm. >> And I think it's often the case that until you acknowledge that, it really is impossible to fix. Like you can't untangle a web of [ __ ] unless you're willing to look at it, right? >> Mhm. >> Um it's weird. It's weird though. It's weird how often like God knows how the mind works, but it does seem interesting how often it's the case that when you shine a light on something, it kind of starts fixing itself. And it's only when it doesn't have that spotlight of attention >> that that it doesn't Well, I wonder how much of that's resistance. That would be at least something that has to play a part of a role for this. I think I am not I'm not this thing. I'm not this thing. I'm not this thing. Well, in the effort of the resistance, >> you are >> right. >> You're lying to yourself about what's going on. I am this thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz if you try to control what ideas you have in your head, then the ideas end up controlling you, right? Like if you push against a wall that can't be moved, it's you that ends up moving. And so like the more you try to control things that are literally just the case, >> the more they end up affecting you. It's a weird like I don't know if there's not many cases in which um Newtonian physics maps on to psychology but I think that's one of them like every force does an opposite. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think uh >> to sort of round this out what I said at the start about um aiming for 20 >> trying for 20. Uh there is a a challenge to people that have self-belief and high standards, which is when you stop meeting them, when you fall short a little bit, it's painful. And when you fall short a lot, it just feels like a total loss of your sense of self. If you have made if you have wrapped your identity up in being the person who has high standards and is able to meet them and I'm upward aiming and all the rest of it. And I think this is why stories that have someone who hits rock bottom and then bounces back out. Okay, that's like relatively neat. But it's the story that has multiple rock bottoms or maybe not even rock bottoms but serious, you like 50% pullbacks. and that I thought I was [ __ ] I thought I was getting better. >> I thought this thing was moving in the right direction. And to me, there isn't enough talk, especially in sort of the advice world about what happens when you've made the commitment, you've started to make progress, and then you reach multiple pullbacks, self-inflicted, purely environmental, exclusively inside your own head. Like you totally manifest by your own self-doubt, right? like there's no external imposition. You didn't break a leg. You haven't lost a family member. You haven't gone bankrupt. You have, you know, it's nothing's going on other than your own self-doubt creeping back in. My own mental pathology curtailed the trajectory that I had worked so hard to get back on. And [ __ ] I'm about to eat [ __ ] again. God, that sucks. >> Yeah. I mean, I got a friend uh back in Wales, one of like the friends I grew up with, best friend, and yeah, he's sort of in a cycle. It kind of gets better and stops and gets better and stops and gets better and stops and like you know the the Homozi quote about like proof. >> Mhm. There's something to be said about each time it drops back, it can serve as like another data point that gets used in like a narrative of yourself that then becomes causal. It becomes its own creator of that type of behavior into the future. Like if you try to quit smoking >> and you fail and you fail 10 times, it actually increases the odds that you'll fail on the 11th as well. >> And so and you can feel that slippage like each time you fail. You feel like >> I haven't just gone back again. I've actually lost like a strategic vantage point from which I was >> I I I had the opportunity to make the next move and I've lost that vantage point now because it's gone back again. and you can feel yourself kind of it feels like the walls are closing in a lot of the time. I do like the way that Alex reframes it as saying uh how can I say that I'm a man who can withstard hand withstand hard things if I've never withtood hard things >> and that turns uh pullback into nobility in that way but you're right you know if if you regularly try and then there is some sort of a challenge the next time that you try you're expecting challenge and sometimes the challenge is really uncomfortable or or results in no progress, which is, you know, the [ __ ] rocky line of like it's not about how hard you can hit, it's about, you know, getting knocked down, getting back up, etc. There's a little trite, but I think functionally ends up being really important, like is way deeper than than it actually sounds because if all that happens is a straight trajectory of going up, what problem have you got? This is why people have an issue with the sort of silver spoon infant whose life appears to be smooth sailing the whole way through. We have a sort of instinctive revulsion, resentment, discontent with that person because we think, well, you didn't deserve it. You started halfway along the race and then didn't encounter a single hurdle for the rest of it. This feels unfair. And then the people who sort of bounce and then come back out, you think, oh well, you know, there they they sort of kissed death and then rose to an acceptable altitude. Congratulations on that. But there is something about like people who are just regularly uh struggling that just I don't think really gets talked about, especially if it's like a mundane struggle. Oh well, what's the issue? The issue is that I don't really believe in myself that much. The issue is that I fear things. The issue is that I struggle to make a commitment. It's like, dude, there's people like starving. There's people who can't afford their medical bills. There's people who can't afford food. There's people who were beaten or abused or child addicted to drugs as kids. Like, and you're oh, like my inability to believe in myself is stopping me from making progress. W I wish that I could make more risk without feeling scared about why like you and that shame I think gets layered on top for a lot of people too. And >> this sort of generation of lost men thing. Uh I was dinner with Rob Henderson in New York. He had this [ __ ] brilliant line. He was talking about why guys struggle to approach women. And he said uh if you approach one woman and get rejected, you remember for the rest of your life. If you approach a hundred women and get rejected, it's just another Tuesday. >> Yeah. And you have this thing as you said the more insulated that you are the bigger all of these events sort of feel because there's fewer there's less ballast you know what I mean in the system there's like less sort of uh uh stabilizers going on. >> Yeah. Yeah. Taleb has a quote that's something like um the the beginning of robustification it starts with a modicum of harm. >> It's often true. you have to have something bad happen like you have to get hurt a little bit in order to like have the compensatory response to actually heal and get better as a as a result. There was this theory I've uh haven't looked into in years, but there was this psychologist called Drosski. Um he had this theory of positive disintegration where everybody in his time it was there wasn't really much positive psychology going on as a field of study at that time. Um but they all were sort of painting psychological disintegration as a horrible thing and it's always bad. And he was the first guy to kind of flip that and and notice these cases in which disintegration is actually like the metal thing. It's stuff getting like knocked out of place and unlocked so that resettle in a more integrated fashion. Literally in the case of metal, it's more integrated. >> And your psyche can do that too. But often times that's yeah catalyzed by these unpleasant experiences that we go our whole lives trying to avoid. And uh you know it was it was the case that a few thousand years ago you actually couldn't avoid them. It was just life. Like your sister's going to die of the bubonic plague and that's going to suck. And so you know I do wonder human brains are expectant right? Like they the the brain when you first are a baby is kind of like a first draft. And uh I think you get to a certain age and most of the neurons have already been created and then uh it's really young and from that point forwards it's it's actually just pruning. It's getting rid of neurons as new experiences come in. So you get like the marble and then it like sculpts down to the actual sculpture. Um and I wonder to what extent um we are expectant our brains are expectant of more suffering than we're actually getting in terms of acute suffering. Right? because we have plenty of chronic suffering. Things are just kind of moderately [ __ ] all the time. Um, Britain basically in a sense. >> Yeah. I said like a a true British person. >> Yeah. Um, but that kind of moderately [ __ ] all the time doesn't actually tend to do anything for you in terms of growth or harm. And so I think your friend actually had a genuinely good question of should I make my life worse >> in order to rebound out of it? M and like when I was going through that tough time, I think there were elements I kind of knew that was going on. I was leaning into it a little bit in my teen years because I' i'd noticed a pattern that everybody that seems to have like reached somewhere that I want to be in terms of psychological development or like external success or whatever had a really [ __ ] period. >> Um >> I'll get mine I'll frontload mine up the way when I'm 16. >> Exactly. Yeah. Cuz then I've got my 20's, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I just want to linger on it a little bit more. that idea that this sensation that you're destined for something more, but you aren't currently reaching it. >> And the pain of that, I think so many people feel that. >> Mhm. >> So many people feel it. And it's a really unique type of discomfort. And it sounds very luxurious, but uh in reality just feels like a [ __ ] [ __ ] ton of pain. >> Yeah. Well, I think most of like the mo like psychologically speaking, most pain the most painful things are social things and um that sense that you're supposed to do more often times like that's a very socially loaded sentiment. >> Supposed to >> Yeah. supposed to and also want to be seen as um that's incredibly powerful and it's often people throw stones at it like oh you care what people think of you but like no don't be a child you know like obviously I do >> um and and yeah it's uh living with a a big disconnect between the sense of how things should have gone for you >> who you are and who you want to be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's the they say true hell is when the person that you are meets the person you could have been, >> right? And that happens every day. >> Correct. Because you will if you set an ideal, you will constantly compare yourself to that ideal and immediately find yourself lacking. You're always going to fall short of your ideals. And this is the curse of somebody who has high standards >> as far as I can see that your >> dream if you are trying for 20 >> m >> you nail it. 19. Oh my god. You nearly doubled what was normally acceptable for a good performance. Yeah. But you fell short of your unreasonably high stand. >> How How does that work in Do you feel that still? Cuz obviously from the outside like couldn't be in a better position. But >> every day every day still there. >> Oh yeah. Every day. >> Is that because the goalposts move or is it for something else? >> In some ways uh you begin it's very slippery. Um in some ways you start to change the game, >> right? not just move the goalpost. >> So it becomes one of not only do I want to be able to do this thing, but I want to be able to do it with peace and I want to be able to do it with self-awareness and I want to be able to do it with equinimity and I want to be able to do it whilst being a good friend and I want to be able to you start you can imagine some sort of tank and all you wanted to do was get the tank to go forward. But now this tank's got [ __ ] wings and a spoiler and a base and you know it's like I want to be able to do all of this [ __ ] You've augmented the challenges. That being said, um the reason to win the game is so that you don't need to play it anymore. >> And it's a good realization from you that look, >> if you say you shouldn't give a [ __ ] about what other people think of you, I think that you have fallen at the first hurdle because we're social creatures. We're inbuilt for social validation. So, it's way easier to say, I don't need people to care about me. If you've spent a good bit of time with people caring about you, >> like if you've got the social recognition, realized that it's not what it was cracked up to be, then ah, okay, I've rid myself of that of that desire, right? The reason to win the game is so that you no longer need to play it. And I don't think that you can shortcut that. I think maybe you can. Maybe there's a particular type of level of insight or volume of meditation, critical mass that you can reach where you sort of pierce straight through it. But honestly, the quickest route to getting past your vapid need for this external goal is just to get it. >> It's to get it and realize that it wasn't it because trying to rid yourself of it without having got it is at least for me with my constitution would just always leave this this big open loop. >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah, it does. It's like the reminds me of the Naval quote about uh achieving your material desires is far easier than announcing them. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. I think do you think it ever reaches a fever pitch where you go actually I [ __ ] smashed it? >> Yeah. That's a conscious that's a conscious act. >> Mhm. >> That you need to practice. Um it's certainly something that's difficult to do on your own. And again, this is another curse of of high standards. Uh I had this idea about the curse of competence, which is if you're good at things and you regularly do well when you're faced with the challenge, success doesn't become a reason for reason for celebration. It is simply the minimum acceptable performance. M >> uh and that makes any form of success as merely okay and any form of acceptable uh or even close to failure as a catastrophe. Right. you. So this curse of high standards thing again. >> Um >> it it definitely does reach a stage where you think if I can't have fun now, when the [ __ ] can I have fun? So a good example, I started doing live shows about two years ago and you know 35 at this point the channel's reached a million subs and I did a show in Manchester and Manchester was the toughest show of the run. It was a um classic music auditorium like 650 people. So it was the biggest show I'd done at the time. Uh, but high ceilings, not a fantastic sound system, like some of the stuff that comedians often talk about influencing the atmosphere. And I just wasn't feeling I wasn't feeling it. It wasn't the performance that I wanted to get. I'd done Dublin the night before and [ __ ] smashed it. It was a Thursday. Everyone was drunk. It was amazing. Like, it was really rockous and and and and positive and got, you know, all this stuff. And then the uh Manchester show, which was the Friday, was just not the same. And halfway through at the interval I was like just in my own head about the show and I wasn't happy and my mom and dad had come to see it and loads of my ex- business partners because this was the northern show, right? So people from Newcastle would come, people from Manchester I used to work with, my mom and dad were there and uh partway through I sort of took myself into the bathroom and looked in the mirror and had a word with myself and I was like, "Dude, 650 people came to see you speak live at your second ever live show. Your mom and your dad are here. They're healthy. your ex- business partner you haven't seen in years is here. Tons of people that are friends and family have come to support you and all they want to do is watch you win. Like if you can't have fun now, >> when the [ __ ] are you going to start having fun? >> Yeah. >> And I think asking yourself the question like if this isn't it and you can say that's fine. Like this isn't it? It would have been unacceptable for me 50 episodes into the podcast to say this is it. I should be just purely driven by, you know, my desire for enjoyment and transcendent blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, maybe you do need to use some toxic fuel. Maybe you should use your resentment and your bitterness and your inferiority and your desire for more and the chip on your shoulder from school. Maybe you should do that. >> But [ __ ] like if it's not now, >> like when is it? And >> just asking yourself like when when will you start having fun? when will you start giving yourself credit is a wonderful question because it forces you to come into contact with a point when that needs to be >> and a lot of the time we we don't have that and the more that I've consciously tried to practice >> this is really fun >> like this is a this is a Wednesday afternoon nothing else I want to be doing than sitting and doing this like this is really cool or this is a a lovely day this is a nice walk this is a whatever but it is a permanent [ __ ] uphill battle, right? And some people are more disposed to this than others. I would put myself more in the like hard gainer category of uh of gratitude. >> Hard gainers of gratitude. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a I I have to use gym analogies. That's the only [ __ ] language I know. Um but it's effortful. It's just it is the hard gainer thing. All right, dude. You're going to have to lift [ __ ] more consistently. You're going to have to sleep more. You're going to have to eat more protein. You're going to have to be more dialed in. You're going to have to work harder in order to do that. But okay, like [ __ ] what's the alternative? >> Rage against the fact that it was cosmically unfair that you were well, guess what? These are the cards that you were dealt and you've got a ton of genetic predispositions that you're [ __ ] happy to have. >> You're happy with your work rate. You're happy with your vision. You're happy with your pace of of of learning and your curiosity or your ability to, you know, be good in social situations or your ability to be good in solitude or whatever it is. like everybody's got their unique constitution and some people got a larger overall uh um point score too, right? It's not just that it's 100 points spread evenly. Some people got 80 and some people got 120 and some people got more. >> Um >> but [ __ ] hell, like largely >> finding out what your strengths are and trying to play to them is the only way that you can really play this game. at least as far as I've learned and understanding. Okay, what are the thing for me? Gratitude does not necessarily come that easily to me. So, it's okay. I'm going to have to lift that load. Obsession [ __ ] say no more, dude. Like, got it. [ __ ] sweet. >> So, okay. Well, I can take my foot off the gas with regards to that and coast with it. And then with other things, I can I'm going to have to put a bit of work in it. >> Yeah. It's interesting like you kind of create this irony where it's like you're in grateful for the amount of gratitude that you can easily acquire. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Yeah. So it like eats its own tail in a way. It's like if that's if that's like the pair of glasses you've got on, if that's the lens through which you're seeing everything is like identifying problems to be solved, then you will find problems everywhere. even in things like gratitude and you create those little circular things where it's like, damn, I wish I was more grateful. >> Um, but yeah, I mean there's pros and cons to either side of it and I think there probably is an inverse relationship between having nice things and being able to enjoy them. Um, >> and that's a part of the nature of not just Chris or Angelo, but just of humans. Like that's that's sort of what we're there to do. And like you know there's a great um part in I think it was in notes from underground as well where DSTI is talking about um a potential utopia and he said you could give people all the land all the houses and allow them to busy themselves with the eating of cake and the reproduction of their species and they would burn it all to the ground just so that something unexpected would happen. >> And um we do that in our personal lives as well. like there's that there's a chance that what we're not actually after is satiety like and um satiation >> and uh the fulfillment of desires >> but desire itself >> like nature said um ultimately it is the desire not the desired that we truly love and so if you're really going to play that role well well it makes sense to put yourself in this position where you're ungrateful for the amount of gratitude that you have cuz then you've you've won the game. You can be searching for >> Yeah. the uh the great philosopher a Tate once said having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, I I spoke to Dan Bilzerian about this separately before he uh came on the show and uh I said basically you've sort of completed hedenism as far as I can see. Do you ever wish that you'd sort of played the game more slowly? Because where do you go from here? >> Mhm. >> And Jimmy Carr had the same intuition which is trajectory is more important than position. Trajectory is more important than absolute position. >> 100%. 100. I've experienced that in my life. like the best parts of my life, the best memories are when there was like a a change in in trajectory, like a moment of acceleration. Um, it's not to do with Yeah. where you are at all, for sure. Um, and also on the point of Dan Bilzerian and like completing hedenism. Um that's why I think what people like Jordan Peterson and John Vi are doing is so important because they're they've identified that issue like that even if you're damn zerian you will get there and be like what what now? >> Um and yeah what people do need is that structure through which they can derive meaning or at least interpret meaning in their lives. And like when you're oriented towards pleasure instead of meaning, you you really are kind of shooting yourself in the foot right at the beginning of the race. >> Have you heard me do my Frankle's inverse law bit? >> Don't think so. >> Stinks of you. Let me give you this one. >> So, you'll know this quote. When a man can't find a deep sense of meaning, they distract themselves with pleasure. Uh Franklin is arguing that a lack of meaning causes people to seek temporary relief in superficial pursuits rather than addressing the underlying existential void. Perhaps for many, maybe even most, this is a big issue. But there is another group who suffer with the opposite problem. Frankle's inverse law. When a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning. If ease, grace, joy, and playfulness don't come easily to you, one solution is to just ignore moment to moment happiness entirely and just always pursue hard things. You become a world champion at winning the marshmallow test. You convince yourself that delayed gratification in perpetuity is noble because you struggle to ever feel grateful. TLDDR: You prioritize meaning over happiness because happiness doesn't come easily to you. That's perfect. That's perfect. 100%. There was a moment when I was a teenager where I think that happened in me. There was like a very potent switch. I mean like when I was 13, I was so obsessed with happiness that I like tried to write a book about it and how to be it. Um the child psychologist I ended up going to uh was asking for source material and we gave her that book I wrote and the first thing she said when I sat down with her was I read your book and I was like all you know bushy tailed and puppy eye and I was like oh yeah what you good ideas right and she was like so I'm guessing you're like um struggling with a sort of depression >> your happiness book made me depressed. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know if it made her depressed, but she could see so obviously that there was something there with me that like I was pedestalizing happiness to such >> Yeah. Think about think about what the thing is. What everybody is chasing is almost always the thing that they're feeling that they're lacking. Exactly. >> You know, this person who needs lots of wealth is because they feel like they are unsecure in their resources. This person who needs lots of admiration is the one who feels inferior socially. The person who needs lots of beautifification on the outside somehow feels ugly. And the The older that I've got, the more true that has become because more people are motivated by running away from something they fear than running towards something they want. That's not to say that nobody has this perfectly balanced desire for just maximizing their time on the planet, man. You know, and I have met those people and they're [ __ ] freaks and aliens. Um, but I would say of the high performers that I'm around, nine out of 10 of them are probably the running away from something you fear. >> Mhm. >> Uh, as opposed to the just pure alchemy of something that you want. >> And I suppose you could look at it as alchemy, too. Like, you know, this is something bad and you've turned it into something good and congratulations that that's an upward aiming trajectory. But if you 13-year-old writes a book about happiness, so why where do you think that comes from? It comes from a huge lack of happiness. >> Mhm. Yeah. That was kind of the basis for the whole uh dating advice video that I did, which is that like it's the exact same dynamic at play. When you feel like there's a lack there, you're just going to become obsessive about it. >> Mhm. >> I don't know. I wish there was a different way to frame human motivation because it it's got a tinge of like um cosmic joke in it, doesn't it? where it's like you're just going to be on the hamster wheel that's, you know, suited to your deepest fear. But I don't think that's all it because the I've noticed at least in my life like as I've overcome certain fears like with respect to failure and stuff like that like things you say overcome, it's a sliding scale, right? Like you it decreases. It doesn't just >> some things just turned it down a little. I've turned down the dial and some things do just disappear like magic tricks when you see how they're done psychologically, but most things they're sliding scale and and like of those things that I've managed to decrease a fair bit. >> Um, it can leave you feeling kind of directionless in some sense. Like I had a big moment of that this year where I think like for a lot of my life I was hugely motivated by like the applause and stuff like praise. Um, and like I think that was all wrapped up in some subconscious thing around like jealousy in relationships and stuff. And that was a big problem for me for like a really long time. And I thought I had a big jealousy problem. Turns out I just had a really big problem with being jealous. Um, >> what's that mean? What's the difference? >> Well, if you have a big jealousy problem, then you actually are a problem. And you know, your jealousy is like a parasite that's living on top of you and uh making you feel the wrong things and say and do the wrong things. But if you just got a problem with your jealousy, jealousy is just a normal part of the human experience, right? As are many of the >> So, it's the story that you told yourself about what being jealous meant. >> Yeah, it's partly that and also partly just a visceral rejection of the emotion of how it feels in your body. >> Um, >> this shouldn't be the way it is. You shouldn't be feeling this. Well, guess what? You are. >> Yeah, exactly. So, I thought I had a jealousy problem. Turns out it was just a problem. I had a problem with being jealous. And when the problem dropped away, I realized actually I'm not [ __ ] Satan for feeling this. I'm actually just an ape that you were talking before. It's a >> resistance%. >> Yeah. And as that sort of um resistance drops away, >> um you you can often be completely unaware of how much that was being the toxic fuel that you talk about in the background. Like you don't really notice it. And like I think lots of my um sort of desire to sort of overcompensate on the social dimension like start a YouTube channel last year and post as fast as I can like three videos a week when I started. A lot of that I think came from this like excessive desire to overexpand that backed into this sense that I was inferior and like this was the proof that I was inferior. >> Uh have you looked at the courage to be disliked or any adarerian stuff? Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it feels like I'm not super deep in it, but at least from a little bit of the stuff that I've learned, Adler believed that inferiority or the fear of inferiority is one of the big drivers >> psychically for for humans. >> And uh I I think that's a really lovely framing because it it it captures both of the things that we've talked about today, which is who do I think I should be and where am I compared with that? And who are the people around me and where am I compared with that? I'm I'm inferior to my own standards and inferior to the performance of the people that are around me. There's this weird asymmetry that I really love and I realized in my 20ies though that >> we get to see the inner landscape of our own minds which includes all of our self-doubt and foibless and failures and uncertainty from a front row seat a million times a second, right? As our brain wors back and forth. But we only get to see the psychological landscape of other people in the actions that they take which is one to a million bit rate difference right you know the resolution that we see someone else's interior minations compared with our own cuz I only get to see what emerges from you even if >> [ __ ] like we're both on psychedelics at the same time and they're the most transparent ever. How many words a minute can you speak? How much how much body language can I infer from you? It's not that much. When you think about the depth of your own thoughts versus the black and white 360p of everybody else's behavior in front of you, which always is going to put you on the wrong side of assuming everyone else is a wellput together, slick, rational human who is well-built and I am a wavering idiot >> by comparison. >> You know what I mean? >> Oh, 100%. like unraveling that perception of other people I think is one of the most powerful things you can actually do to improve the quality of your life and your relationships. It's very hard um because it often it means you have to acknowledge the nasty parts of other people which >> is sometimes easy if they're your enemy. You want to see the nasty parts but when they're your friends that's not that's not easy at all. Um, and the even harder part acknowledging those within yourself. Like my example with the jealousy. Like until that's like fully integrated into your personality, it will be like a sabotur in the background like for your entire life. Adults don't exist, dude. I've spent, >> you know, the last few years around some of the richest, most famous, most successful people on the planet. And it's [ __ ] idiots all the way up. Like, it really is. No one has any idea what they're doing. M >> and the small number of people that actually do probably don't talk about it that much. Um but you know, you were saying about is it a a weird sort of cosmic joke that this trajectory and habituation just uh ever ratchets up the difficulty of what you have to do. Like I need to achieve more to be satisfied, but now that the bar has been set higher, that means that the next achievement needs to again be higher in order for me to again be higher and again be higher. Oh, I've completed that game. So then I do what I was talking about before, which is, oh, I changed the game. It's do that with this. It's do that in a different domain. It's do that not just again a thousand times. It's do it with this twist on it. Or it's do it in, oh, it's going to be in a more gentle state, whatever it might be. And I can start to see, I might be being precient here. I'm not too sure. It might just be because I was sat up as a Dr. K yesterday. I can start to see this is the genesis of the spiritual arc of people who have reached success. that it's an entire universe that people have tried to complete and maybe they've managed to tick off a lot of the different quests and side quests that go on inside of there and they go maybe it's not in this realm. >> Maybe the entire uh avenue of nourishment needs to be different. It has to come from a different place. And I've been trying to I've been trying to drink water to make myself not hungry anymore. And you go, I'm using the wrong pathway here. I need to do something else. And I can at least in some ways begin to see why aestheticism come spiritual practice with all of that stuff helps you to play a little bit of a different game. Uh but >> it's the trajectory thing is certainly a challenge because every time that you have a big leap forward in progress, hooray, isn't this great? I have a greater vantage point. Boo, this is now higher from which to fall at the same time. Like, oh, I've got something to lose. >> And and that's terrifying. >> It is. I think it would definitely be a lot worse of a situation if it was the case that it's the desired that we really love. But that switch from nature that it's the desire that you like >> changes the entire thing because then like >> from Mr. Tate. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. He does it as well. But that changes the game cuz then it's like oh thank god there's always going to be a new thing to strive for cuz if that's like really the juice of life >> is this like >> pushing yourself up against the boundaries and the hard edges of reality and seeing what gives. >> Like >> it's incredibly fulfilling. And if you ran out of things to achieve, um, you might find yourself incredibly bored. Um, so yeah, I wonder I wonder how much of human life is like a, as you say, thinly veiled attempt at quelling boredom. I think >> What do you make of your generation's struggles with masculinity and girls? Um, I think it backs into that thing we said at the beginning about adventure. The the lack of adventure in young dudes lives is palpable and it's immediate. And I think the whole picture of masculinity as some sort of um divine solution to that where all you need to do is become more masculine and then all of a sudden, you know, all of the the kind of dullness of life will be solved. You'll be um getting all the girls that you want to get. You'll be starting the business and swinging it around wherever you go. Like it's a really attractive meme. um to young guys who feel like they are kind of half alive. Um and it has the added fuel of backing into insecurities. Um it's very easy to sort of make masculinity the measure of a man and then uh promote that message and make everybody feel like, "Oh [ __ ] maybe that's true. Maybe you can make a case for it in retrospect." And then everybody hears that case and starts measuring themselves against it and feels like they've come up lacking. Um and uh that makes it very easy to sell courses and very easy to um sort of do like a pop psychology type offer like a a general solution to personal problems >> which is rarely uh rarely effective cuz I think most of the issues that people actually have to deal with in their lives are hypers specific and nuanced based on like their actual immediate iate problem in their life. Maybe they're addicted to weed or they've got a bad relationship with their mom and these are the things they actually need to solve and they're really uncomfortable to solve. And so instead you have somebody come along online and say actually you know the reason you're dissatisfied is not because of you know your personal issues that I know nothing about. It's because of this like grand cosmic narrative going on where like they're trying to cut your balls off and what you need to do is go and retake it. And like all good stories, like all popular stories, it's invested with a with a modicum of truth. Um, in that, you know, they're young men are sort of growing up in a world that is not allowing them the wiggle room to express those natural um, parts of themselves. And then it layers a bit of shame on top of it with the the sort of woke stuff. >> Um, Mhm. and it becomes very like the woke stuff is very pervasive. It's sort of everywhere. >> Um, and it's easy to internalize that especially when you know we didn't have sort of religious stories or anything growing up. Most of us we just had Hollywood movies and that's you know the the morals of those stories are going to be subject to all of the personal preferences of the people that made the movies and wrote them which might not be reflective of what's actually best for you. It might be reflective of what would be more convenient for them. Maybe it would be more convenient if you're a little bit less loud and if you shut up a little bit and if you just sat down at your desk at school and didn't bother the teacher. Like >> it's convenient but often times not for the person who the rule is aimed at. >> Mhm. Um, so it's a weird blend of of modicums of truth mixed with like opportunism on the part of people who recognize the insecurity in others that they feel in themselves and then use it to sort of create this >> sort of circle jerk of >> interesting sort of first mover advantage of here is a point of pain that I feel in myself. I can push that button in other people too. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Which Peterson says is the definition of evil. Um, funnily enough, like this >> I've just made this connection as we speak, but um the the reason you don't think a lion is evil when it kills a sheep is because it's not out there to it. One, it doesn't know what it's doing in a metacognitive sense. It's just doing it. It doesn't know that it is doing it. That's a human trait. >> Um, and that backs into self-awareness. You need to have one, you need to know that you exist in order to know that you know something. And the whole idea that Peterson gives about the um the Adam and Eve story is that it's like a revelation of your own vulnerability. Um how easily you are you are harmed and how easily you're hurt and that it's that life is going to include a lot of suffering. And when you realize you're in that position, aha, everyone else is in that position too. >> Mhm. >> And I can [ __ ] with them now because I know exactly I know what's going to really hurt me. That means I know what's also going to really hurt you. And it's the utilization of that knowledge that is like exclusive to humans that I've heard Peterson >> the theory of mind thing. >> The theory of mind. Yeah. He points at that as evil. So I think there is something um yeah not very great about I don't think it's it's often times done like fully consciously. So it's I wouldn't point a finger at it and call it evil. >> Or is it the most people are motivated by believing that they're doing the right thing? >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um, and as well, you know, if this is a if this is a a mechanism of sedation or anesthesia for this person, they go, "Hey, I fixed it." Like all of the guys that said your problems with girls will be sorted if you just ask them about the [ __ ] fight that happened outside, neg them, take them to three different locations on one night, you know, like all of the PUA 101 stuff. You go, "Well, yeah. I mean, like, it did. It did. That is true. That is true. Lots of guys do have problems with women and this is a strategy that reliably will like surface level fix what you think is the problem. But the problem wasn't the problem. The problem wasn't I can't get laid. It's I don't feel comfortable around women and I don't have fun when I'm with girls. Yeah. >> Like you're still not having fun. >> Yeah. You're like goal oriented and >> Yeah. Um, all very profitable though and all very catchy cuz like you I've been on the receiving end of it as well when I was a teenager. Like what like I think as most guys are at this point, you kind of get exposed to every potential solution to the problems that you're currently experiencing. Lots of them is the red pill stuff. And it's super attractive. >> It really is. it like sort of um there's something about it that tends to it tends to like point responsibility away from you a little bit I find as well. It's like um obviously because like especially on the ideological side that stuff is coming out of people often times as a response to certain pains. So, it's like perfectly adapted to the type of pain that young guys experience in the dating world. Um, so it spreads super super fast cuz of the network effect. Um, but yeah, the that an idea convinces you should not serve as evidence that it's true, just that it's convincing. >> Um, so yeah, the red pill can be very convincing, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the whole truth. It often is true within like a certain if you like are hyper selective about your context and your frame. Um, and a lot of that like selection is cherrypicking and it's smuggled in in the subtext of stuff. It's not explicit. It's often times implicit like that the goal is just to get laid. Like that's something that's implicit in the pickup stuff. Um, but lots of guys will come there with the problem that the real problem and then they're kind of like experiencing this new way of looking at things that has that implication that the goal is just to get laid. That feels nice because it divorces them from all of the other [ __ ] they might have to do. And so they don't >> I want to feel comfortable with a woman. >> Yeah. I want to feel I want to have fun with it. Um but by shifting the goalposts in the implication in the like implicitly shifting the goalposts you can interact with that whole way of thinking and start to feel really good like there's an alleviation of pain >> because you're not engaging with it anymore the real thing. >> Yeah. It's like you are solving something but it's like a different problem to what you set out to and you haven't noticed that the problem is switched. There's an interesting uh positioning that happens I think with a lot of guys advice which is it it has the right amount of uh autonomy baked into the solution just enough autonomy baked into the solution to give you the I am masculine man doing it on my own uh justification because I don't think that guys would go for the pure victimhood narrative. That would feel too icky. Yeah, >> but also you can't go the level of autonomy and you should look at yourself in the mirror kind of stops at your routine. It doesn't go to >> you need to do therapy, dude. Or you need to journal a lot. You need to work out what the drive for your desperate requirement for social validation like where's that coming from? Oh, it's because you don't feel good enough. And that that is something that needs to be unpacked slowly and and internally. >> And going to the gym is going to make you feel really great, but your problems are still going to be waiting for you when you get home. >> And that doesn't mean you shouldn't go to the gym, but you cannot confuse going to the gym for doing the work that is getting rid of the problems. And this also means that a world where you just work on your problems and don't go to the gym is worse than one where you get to do both. But you can't confuse the thing which is frankly easier to do >> for the one that includes the hard thing. This is, you know, the emotions piece trying to um live below the neck as I call it. Uh >> I like that. >> Yeah. Um is has been a bit of an obsession, but I understand as well that it's made at least the show over the last 12 months like a lot more fluffy. Uh, you know, I've got kind of Homosian seabbum sat on each shoulder and Alex is saying, "Stop being such a [ __ ] Just work harder. Don't care about your emotions." And Chris is saying, "You should start a family. Go lie in a hammock. Go for a walk." And these two things are. And I've definitely been more sebum energy than I have Alex energy this year. And I think Alex has actually been more Sebum energy than he has been Alex. The most recent conversation we had was specifically around this. He's like taking a more holistic look at what's going on. And uh I understand that that makes for a fluffier and in many ways much less sexy, much messier, you know, this the sort of chat that we've had today. There's hopefully something useful and interesting in there, but it's not as linear as, you know, get up on time, eat your veggies, go to the gym, one gram per pound of body weight, protein, like, you know, it's not as linear as that. And >> that doesn't mean that it's in any way more elevated, right? It it's it's it's there's just as many layers of obfiscation and cope and and need for um protection from feeling things. But at least it kind of accepts, all right, the game is not just out there. And the game is not just like out there as me, but it's really [ __ ] turning it inward and trying to feel trying to feel feelings and trying to work out where they come from and taking a pretty sort of hard look, not just in the mirror, but like in the sort of mirror of your soul and thinking, okay, I I look, this is an unteachable lesson, right? I it a thousand episodes of this podcast, move to America, do all of the things for me to say fame won't fix your self worth. Money isn't going to like improve your happiness. You don't love that girl. She's just hot and difficult to get. You should see your parents more. Don't work so hard. Like all of these things, they are only, as far as I can see, realizations you can arrive at by completing them. >> Like, you need to go through the video game, get to the end, and go, "All right, well, congratulations. that thing that everyone clichedly said like with [ __ ] religious revelation, I now get why they said it. Like it's because it's either one of two things, right? It's either that is the truth or people who get to the end of a particular game and start proilitizing about how the game wasn't the game and nobody else should be playing it is part of some weird secret society that all successful people are a part of to like con the peeons into not playing the game just to keep all of the success for themselves. Like why is it that people so reliably get to the end of these sorts of games and say it was good in some ways but largely unfulfilling in others and there was an area of me I thought it was going to satisfy and it didn't and [ __ ] it's still there and now I'm I'm going to have to look at something else. >> Like why do you think so many people keep saying that? Why is that the place that they go to? >> I think it's how we're built. I really do. I think that's that is what it is to be a human is to be perpetually dissatisfied. Um, and that that's just the case. And it's not a nice case. It's not like pleasant, but it is the case. And um, and so it'll it'll always be there. There will always be an element of like, [ __ ] I thought this was going to be like sunshine and rainbows and, you know, it has its moments, but ultimately like no matter where I am, there I am, I'm still I got to be with myself. Um, and sometimes, right, sometimes it is because people spend their entire lives chasing the wrong thing and they get to the end of it and they go, "Fuck, like that was pointless." And those are the people you hear you hear from cuz those are the people who are rich and famous cuz rich and famous is what you go for when you're chasing something that wasn't originally your plan. >> Um, so you hear that message a lot. partially is just like the selection bias of that like um but you know you hear people who are also happily married and have beautiful families and they're still kind of >> dissatisfied >> um because at the end of the day like the floor feels like the [ __ ] floor. My stomach hurts. I've got a bit of a headache and like I've got to do stuff today that I didn't I wouldn't choose to do if I could do whatever I wanted. That's like the human condition. And like I think a good part of personal growth is actually not like optimizing so that you're like some bastion of gratitude your whole life and going about in this perfect zen flow state of like everything's super enjoyable and I'm and I'm getting gratitude but I'm not like sort of uh falling back on my motivation. Like I'm grateful and motivated as if that's like a thing you can do. um and to reach this like sort of it's like a picture you have in your head of what could be possible to live and it's a great thing to strive for cuz it will make you do things and it will preoccupy you. Um, but like at the end of the day, there has to be some concession to the general day-to-day human experience because that is what your life is. Like >> narratively, your your life gets defined as like a few really important moments, reaching a billion plays, like doing this, doing that. >> That's what you connect the dots at the end cuz that's what you put on your one page sheet that goes at your funeral to explain what your life was. It's just one page. My grandma died last year and it struck me cuz there was a an explanation of her life and it was one page and I remember being like that's a whole life. This one's been on the planet for decades and it's reduced down to an A4 sheet >> to literally. And I remember being like, huh, [ __ ] And I was thinking to myself like, is that all life is? Just like a few important moments and everything else is just fluff. And I was like, no, it's the exact [ __ ] opposite of that. It's that those few moments don't matter that much. They matter to the ego. They matter to the identity because they are the proof that you are who you said you are and all of that stuff. But like real life is just dayto-day. and like your relationship with the [ __ ] walls and with the floor and with your own body and your own the voice that's in your head. That is where like if you're talking about maximizing uh general fulfillment in life like your relationship with those things I think is actually the only lever that really matters cuz whether you get the big thing or not like it will be a high and then a low and then you b then you baseline that's just like structurally functionally what you are. It's not even like a personality trait. It's just like definitionally the case. >> Um, and we we argue against that because we want to believe in the utopia of like 400 virgins and bliss for the rest of your life, but that doesn't happen. Um, and that's not to say you can't be deeply fulfilled in life. You can. It's just that that fulfillment doesn't look like bliss and excitement in perpetuity. There was when I was playing around eight years ago with I knew I wanted to start the show, but I didn't know what to call it. >> And I had a short list of pretty bad names. Uh, Brains and Brawn, one of them. Glad that I didn't go for that. And Modern Wisdom is the only time in my entire copywriting marketing career, which has lasted a very long time. had to come up with names for club nights a lot because they fail a lot which means you permanently need to be reinventing them. >> Uh the only time I ever got divine inspiration was Modern Wisdom and I woke up at 3 in the morning and was like that's the name. Wrote it down in my phone so I didn't forget it and uh so I've never looked back. But one of the other names that was on the cutting room floor that I didn't go for was Crushing a Tuesday. Crushing a Tuesday comes from Tim Ferrris. And even though I would probably like because I'm all elevated now and I say cross-legged um I would call it enjoying a Tuesday or peaceful on a Tuesday. His argument is basically people optimized for peak experiences but your life is made up of ordinary Tuesday. >> Right. Yeah. >> And your goal should be that your average Tuesday is just pretty good. >> Mhm. >> Right. Because your life is made up of ordinary Tuesdays. And I think that that's that's what you're talking >> Yeah. That's exactly the same thing. Yeah. Modern wisdom is perfect as well. >> Thank you. >> It's really good. It fills the exact [ __ ] hole that is there today that needs to be filled, which is how do you be wise when the [ __ ] log has been pulled out underneath us and there's no like source material in a >> mismatched environment. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh I think that's fundamentally the question a lot of people are asking themselves because we're at this weird we are a generation or you know a bunch of generations that have the curse of awareness of holy [ __ ] a lot of the things that we used to rely on that were comforting stories maybe they're not quite so true and we've got things that are phenomenal uh contributors to our quality of I've got the entire world's [ __ ] corpus of human history now in a chatbot. There you can talk to it. You're never going to be lonely for the rest of your life. >> Here in a driverless car, there was no one in the driver's seat. >> Yeah, the Whimos. Yeah, they're crazy. Um, yeah, all of these things. And yet at the same time, all of the stories and all of the levels of comfort have gone out of the window. This is one of the great insights Alex Okconor taught me. I think he actually taught me this in a vlog, not in a on a podcast episode, but he was stood in that lobby outside and uh he was saying the problem with the modern atheist movement and the sort of rationalist movement is that it is selling people on statistics, data, and the scientific method and telling them to get rid of archetype, myth, and story. The issue is the human brain finds archetype, myth, and stories a thousand to one more compelling than the numbers. So you're telling people to dispense with the thing that feels most real to them and believe in the thing that feels most fake. >> And I think that that sense of I really don't [ __ ] know how to operate. This is a very novel, fastmoving world. And all for all that humans are adaptable creatures. We're adaptable on like genetic time scales, right? We're not adaptable and we we we're not bad, right? You know, modern world, Wi-Fi signals, we seem to be surviving. There was a pandemic not long ago. Everyone got through that kind of okay, >> but like psychologically it's a challenge for a lot of people. And then when you layer on top the shame of what was your line? Uh the majority of your life is spent in relative physical comfort, but psychologically life feels anything but comfortable. How could this be? you live at the high point of human history and your biggest question is whether or not life is worth living. Um it's it's [ __ ] true. And this additional layer of I don't feel good and I don't feel good that I don't feel good. I don't have legitimacy in this discontent and my melancholy feels shameful. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Like measuring your success against your happiness is a shorefire way to ensure that every moment of unhappiness doesn't go unmultiplied. Then you're not just unhappy, you're also failing, >> which is twice unhappy >> because that's the metric of success. And like the meaning thing is exactly where we get the sense that life is worth living. We don't really get it from doing like a a [ __ ] moral calculus of pleasure and pain and then seeing which comes out more. Like if there was 51% pleasure and 49% pain, would that still be worth living if that was the entire sort of story? Well, I don't know. Like, so meaning and stuff is definitely where we get that from. And you can use a a myth to explain why we are so confused on that front. Have you heard of pro prostes? >> No. So, Procrsties was an inkeeper in Greek mythology that was like on a road from Athens to somewhere else. And as bandits walked, as people walked across, there was lots of bandits. Um, but he would offer people free accommodation. So, people would come in and say, "Ah, yeah, this is great. This is a long road. I'm very tired and stuff." And then, uh, they would lie down in his bed except for if they were too short to fit the bed, then he would stretch them to so they fit it perfectly. And if they were too long, he would chop off their excess limbs so that they fit really nice. So he was doing them a service, you know, making sure that they fit perfectly. Obviously, not a service. This is really [ __ ] up. But it's a it's often used to the the idea of a procrustian bed is used to explain this compulsion of humans to map messy reality into arbitrary but neat straight lines. Um, and so words always do this. Like whenever you use a word, you're invoking a category. and categories all put like boundaries around certain patterns and exclude context from content. Um but by doing that you are literally by adding any sort of category and excluding the context from the content. You are then no longer dealing capable of dealing with contextual questions. And the meaning of life is a contextual question. So whenever you go about like trying to answer what am I doing this for in a way that you could explain to somebody else you're like trying to lift up water with a net and being >> Could you give me a modern example of the procristian bed >> bureaucracy is one there's like a million cases where um people like have to just like select an arbitrary like like box ticking. They just they need to check the boxes. And they were like there was a story in David Greyber's [ __ ] jobs about a guy that wanted to move his computer from one room to the other. And it in total it included like four different companies, two moving vans, uh like 20 pieces of paperwork or something crazy like that because they had to check the boxes that they moved the computer in the right way cuz it was a military computer >> and he could have done it himself. And it ended up paying like six people like uh a few thousand because as it expanded it was just like you needed someone to verify the verifiers of the and so like that can be a procrasty situation. You often see it in science where people have like a totalizing theory for a messy reality and then instead of adjusting their theory to map the reality they adjust their perception of reality to map the theory. And so psychologists do this a lot. The first psychologist I went to see did this with me where she, you know, had the degrees on the wall, but she mapped my experience onto her theories, which all told her to amplify um uh and validate her her um patients, which made me just sink deeper into, oh yes, these are real problems. I do have like a disease in my brain and it is very real and everybody else needs to accommodate them otherwise I'm going to like drown and and it just got worse and like um I think yeah we are allergic to messiness and whenever reality is too messy or it's messy in a way that we find distasteful we'll try and like force it into a proced of our own left hemisphere sort of. Yeah. >> There's a idea from Gwinder Bogle called the golden hammer. When someone usually an intellectual who has gained a cultish following for popularizing a concept becomes so drunk with power he thinks he can apply that concept to everything. Every mention of this concept should be accompanied by a picture of Nasim Talb. Nasim Talib is the perfect one because well there's a there's there's another reason I think Nasim Talib's ideas span such a wide variety of things is because like if you read his books he's talking about literature and then art and then economics and trading and stuff but it's because all of the insights like anti-fragility and stuff like really their insights about people and not really about the thing at hand. And so all you then need to do is map how this thing that people do interacts in these different things. And it seems like you've got a new information about all these different industries simultaneously, but it's people that you're really talking about. >> Mhm. Dude, you're great. I'm really, really impressed with what you're doing. What can I do? What can I do for you? If I was to give you a favor, you don't need to choose it now, but you've got a favor on the table from me. So, whatever it is that you need, I'm happy to facilitate. >> Um, I don't know. Have me back on again. I enjoyed it. >> [ __ ] yeah. Where should people go to keep up to date with what you >> um so I'm on YouTube at Angelos Summers. S O M E R S. Um and uh yeah, that's the main thing. I've got this like uh web app software thing I'm coming up with to like wisdom tools. Um that's the compass. Um oh, and I have a newsletter I just started called Navotes. It's on Substack. And also if you go to angels summers.com you can put your email in and do it on kit. Um but yeah. >> Okay. People should go and watch your YouTube dude. You crush. Thank you. Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode. Even if you did nothing else today. Imagine how amazing that is. Anyway, Matthew McConnA waiting for you right here. Go on. Press it.