The Random Show! Mortality, AI, Supplements, Rock Climbing, & More

Kev, Kev. >> Tim, Tim. >> Good to see you, man. >> Good to see you, and let's figure out which one they're going to share. >> Cheers. All right. Well, you know, I know the cool kids are down on alcohol, but every once in a while, I think there's a place for it. >> There's a time and place. >> And this is the time. >> I think this [laughter] is the time and the place, and I think paying a tax for it the next day is a feature and not a bug. >> Are you getting taxed harder >> Oh, of course, yeah. >> getting worse? >> Every old bastard >> Yeah, I know. >> That's gender neutral, gets taxed as you can process ethanol less and less well over time. But, I'm cool with it. I I don't have that much, but today has been hectic. >> Yeah. >> You know, take a little take take a little edge off. And people may not like the sound of that. It's a little antiquated, maybe, for all the cool ketamine kids, no offense. >> [laughter] >> But, >> Don't put that [ __ ] on me. I tried one time, and I get freaking [laughter] the bastard >> go once, and then they call me the god [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> You can't get around it. I still stand by that experience. When you're doing it in a supervised setting by a medical professional >> go. >> No, I've been telling you, it's you've done it. >> Of course, [snorts] I have. >> Okay, so there we go. >> Well, yeah, because I wanted to be able to speak. >> you at a party one time, and you were just like >> That's not true. That's [laughter] not true. Still have all my nostrils intact. No ketamine cramps, you know. >> I don't even know what that is. Is that a thing? >> That's when you use too much. >> Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Tell me about >> Oh, yeah, I heard something bad on the bladder. >> Yeah, your bladder can get a little grumpy, or a lot grumpy, >> Yeah. >> as the case might be. >> Yeah, I'm good. >> You know, I'm good. >> Kevin, random show number 3,479. >> Yeah, you know what's crazy, dude, is I looked up a random show the other day, and you had a bit of hair. Like >> [laughter] >> like way way back in the day. >> yeah. >> We We babies. >> I know. >> So much [ __ ] has happened. >> I know. >> The only constant I think is like maybe like Toaster, who's barely alive. Like >> [laughter] >> you know. >> Toaster, I know. Seriously. Toaster was a tiny, tiny little pup. >> Yeah. >> Who was chewing through the XLR cables. >> Oh my god. >> Your couch in San Francisco way, way, way back in the day. >> Toaster's 15. And I'll tell a quick little story. A week ago I get this call and Derek calls me and she's like you got to get over the house. Toaster is shaking violently. And he's 15. He's like running into walls and [ __ ] You know, he's getting up there. And his legs are collapsing so he can't stand up. And he couldn't stand up. And he's shaking violently. And I'm like just flying over there. >> Mhm. >> I throw him in my car. He's on my lap. Driving, you know, to get to this emergency vet as fast as possible. And he just sprays [ __ ] all over me. Like literally I I heard it like I I felt his stomach be like >> Oh, here we go. >> 10 seconds later I'm not even talking like oh like oh he had a little [ __ ] Like no, no, no, no. Like shotgun against the car door. Like the whole thing. And it's all down my pants. >> Poor Toaster. >> I know, but you know what's funny, dude? It's like I rushed him in and long story short he's okay now. >> What was it? >> He had gone into the vet the day prior and he was so nervous that he stood for he had to be there for like a multi-hour blood draw >> Mhm. >> cuz he where he had some other issues and he stood for like 6 hours straight. >> That's too long for an old dog. >> can only stand for like 10 minutes. Like max. And so he had just overtaxed himself and got like there's a syndrome that they can get when they're like super stressed out and all that. >> Sure. So, little Molly's at it or big Molly. She's on the floor right here. >> She's sleeping. >> Molly's 12. >> That's crazy. But long story short he's okay. But I thought to myself it's so weird cuz I mean I walked in there and there was like [ __ ] and like I'm literally I'm in tears cuz I think I'm about to have to put down my dog. >> Yeah, of course. >> And I just thought it's okay. I'll do this any day for this dude. When you care about your animals that much, none of that matters. Like you would do anything for them. And it's just like just that love. It's so crazy how much you love these little beasts. Like it's insane, dude. It's like a kid. It's like a kid. It's >> wild to think about if you really sit down and think about it. Some of these super common daily experiences like communing with a dog or pointing and having a dog recognize that you're pointing for instance. >> Mhm. >> That's really rare in the animal kingdom. That recognition of pointing as just one example, but how unusual it is that we have this And yes, we have cats. I grew up with four cats and two dogs. I get it. But in particular dogs as like companions co-hunters, etc. The fact that we have evolved co-evolved in a sense >> Mhm. >> and sort of co-domesticated also, right? It's not necessarily one way. Read The Botany of Desire by Michael Pollan for more on that. is incredible. >> Yeah. >> Right? The fact that we have like we're totally calm having this 60-plus pound beast with giant fangs on the floor is >> nuts. >> Yeah, I mean I'm sure you've seen that those Instagram posts where it's like where I was and where I am now today. And like they show like the wild like wolf like out in the countryside like eating a rabbit. And then they show like a poodle in a tutu outfit and [ __ ] like all like dyed up and [ __ ] >> The meme is I'm going to go grab some scraps from those weird monkeys. What's the worst that could happen? And then it's like 10,000 years later, you're Chihuahua with a bonnet on. >> What else going on, Kevin? I got a couple things on my list. There's a lot to talk about. There's a lot to talk about. First I'll say that lately life has been life-ing me. It's been doing all the things. We lost a a dear colleague Om Malik. >> Oh, man. Very very sad. >> very notorious like just amazing early tech >> just creative author writer >> thinker >> very sweet guy. >> The nicest. The nicest. >> And we lost him within the last week. >> Yeah. Yeah, he passed away. So, that was tough. That was really tough. I found out when I was at a a retreat. I went to a 5-day silent meditation retreat, which is great. But, bummer to hear that. But, I mean this is the thing that I realized the other day. I was thinking about you know, Toaster and Om and other stuff I have going on and my mom getting older and falling and all these things. And in some sense it's unavoidable, number one. And number two I kind of wouldn't have it any other way. It's what makes life interesting. Like, when Om passed >> You mean death? >> Well, just the everything. The chaos of it all. >> Yeah. >> If you can just take a step back and be like, well or I could just be sitting there living a really boring life and nothing could be happening. Like, when Om passed what I felt was a severe sense of loss and sorrow and sadness. But, I realized that that gap is just love at the end of the day. Because I wouldn't have it unless I loved this man so much. Like, I I cared for this person so much. How lucky am I to have crossed paths with this person? >> Yeah, and you were and you were tied in through True Ventures, obviously, and prior to that. >> Yeah. But, like anyone in general that you lose that you love, you know? I mean, when I lost my dad, like that is just a gaping hole of love manifested through sorrow and sadness. >> Yeah. >> And once you realize that, it's like, wow, I had this great father that did all these amazing things with me. And you can kind of convert that or just be okay with it. Not that you need to change that feeling. >> Recognize that it's a consequence of the love you had. >> consequence of the love, the deep love. >> Yeah, you know, I heard about his passing and I want to give credit where credit is due for a few things. Matt Mullenweg, our mutual friend, he was incredibly close to him. And I'm really grateful to Matt for a few things. One, I mean many things. I could give a long list, but there are a few. One is he organized a trip to Antarctica. I've never been to Antarctica or hadn't and on that trip were just a handful of people including Om. So, I got to spend >> quality time and trust me, when you're >> [laughter] >> in Antarctica, you are indoors most of the time. What that means is you're either trying to sleep in your tent, but it's going to be during the summer, so it's like a spotlight in your face 24 hours a day or you're in one of these other structures where you're probably like having wine and junk food. Let's be honest. And [snorts] there's a lot of talking. So, we got to hang out and Om was also an avid photographer and so we got to like go to this nearby emperor penguin colony which was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. And [snorts] you just sit and talk. And if there were going to be any small talk, which there wasn't going to be with Om or me really for that matter, it all falls away after the first half a day. And then everybody's kind of like psychologically naked, right? So, I really want to thank Matt for that opportunity to bond with Om. And I'd spend a lot of time with him, but it was always in these little bits and pieces. You know, not for several days straight where you're basically like locked in together. >> Yeah. >> And separately, Matt introduced me to this short blog post by someone who typically writes very long blog posts, Tim Urban, called The Tail End. I don't know if I ever sent this to you. >> Yeah, people should know by Wait But Why. Wait But Why, fantastic blog. >> And The Tail End makes the point among many others that by the time you, I think it's graduate from high school. Let's assume you're headed off to college away from your parents. You've spent something like 90, 95% of the total hours you will ever spend with your parents by the time you graduate from high school. >> Mhm. >> And when you start to visualize that, and Tim Urban's really good at laying it out visually, it can provoke some really profound changes for me. I mean, just reading that short blog post sent to me by Matt ended up leading to taking my family on these family trips as like awkward and uncomfortable that was at points cuz my family doesn't really emote much. >> Mhm. >> And to stick us together in the way that I was together with all of them, and it's it can be super uncomfortable. But making the effort, right? At least feeling like, look, this runway is not infinite. >> Yeah. >> And it's like, let me just make the effort. And I'm glad I did because we got to a point where it's like with my dad's mobility is really compromised, he needs a wheelchair now for a lot. >> I just saw him a few days ago, and it was great to see him, dude. >> Yeah. >> It was so great to see him. >> He's so kind. >> Yeah. >> He's like, "Kevin!" Like, so happy. And you know, he has his little cane, and it was just like so sweet to see him, man. >> I hadn't seen him for like years. >> Long time. >> It'd been like 7 years or something like that. >> like that. >> And I'm glad I took those trips because before you know it, you can't do it anymore. And it makes me think of you mentioned meditation, this really good short, I'll call it a meditation for simplicity, but >> [snorts] >> it's like an audiobook chapter by Sam Harris called The Last Time. I think it's called The Last Time. And he reflects on these various experiences that at the time you don't recognize are the last time for something. Right? So, he he went skiing, he went skiing, he went skiing, and there was a time when he stopped, but he didn't realize that was going to be the last time. >> Right. >> And you just [ __ ] don't know. >> Do you ever try and like, I think about this, dude, and then I try and do it one more time. >> Yeah, that's how I always end up injured. >> Dude, so I went to the bouncy house with my kids and like I'm 49, you know, and I was like, I'm going to [ __ ] do a flip right now. And like literally people were like, don't do it. Don't like they called me off, you know, and I did it and I stuck it and it felt good. >> You're good on a trampoline. >> It was my last time. >> It might be your last time. You are good on a trampoline. This is so weird, man. Dude, I kid you not, I had a dream last night of the two of us going to House of Air at Crissy Field in San Francisco and you were doing like front flips off your knees, you dropped your hat and then you like kicked the trampoline to bounce it back up to your head and I was like, what? >> wait, wait, so you know I sent you that video of me dropping my hat and kicking back in my head. >> live, too. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so it just made its way into the dream. >> And I was just like, what? I literally had that in my dreams last night. That's wild. >> And I had the assless chaps on like I normally do when you're >> Yeah, you had the assless chaps on which like depending on your angle can be kind of awkward. >> Yeah, exactly. Cuz you like doing the straddle flip. >> [laughter] >> So it's a little awkward. >> I've heard about these dreams before. >> [laughter] >> I know like >> I always text him and Kevin I'm like, I was thinking of you last night. >> Yeah, the chaps were back. >> [laughter] >> So what do you got, man? I mean, people should check out >> My hands are too sweaty cuz I'm thinking about death. >> Yeah, and the chaps. >> [laughter] >> Wow, that's the perfect audio. >> The Well, the retreat was fantastic. I spent 5 days going really deep on my koan, doing a lot of work on it. >> Moo. >> Which you can listen to Henry Shukman on your podcast if people are interested about what Zen is all about, like real true traditional Zen with koans and you probably heard that sound of one hand clapping. That actually is a one of 500 plus koans. Yeah, it was fantastic. I had a couple little micro insights which was good and I was kind [clears throat] of rushed through to the Zen master to explain them and try and get some clarity on them which was great. >> How do you know that you're having a micro insight? So it's not like my balls are chafing in this position. It's something else. >> Yes. >> [laughter] >> But, close. No, I essentially was sitting and you know, Henry, one of the Zen masters that you've had on the show, dear friend of ours, was there. And then his Roshi from Japan was there. So, it's very special. And then he comes every 2 years. >> What's his name? Yamada Yamada Roshi? >> I call him Roshi. Yeah. So, basically, I was kind of pulled Henry aside. You're not supposed to do this. Not talking, but I was like He's like, "Yeah, how's it going?" Like this and that. And I was like, "Well, I had this thing happen. What do you think about this?" And he's like, "You got to come with me right now." Well, not come with me, but he like got me right in front cuz there was a line to see the Roshi to go have your private interview where you go and like check your practice with him. Yeah. So, it's behind closed doors. You go in. You sit down with the Roshi. You typically get between 2 and 10 minutes to sit down and talk about your progress on your practice. And you do that like, you know, once every day and a half when you're out there. >> Mhm. That's cool. >> Enough to where Henry was like, "You should go talk to him right away." >> Skip the line. TSA precheck. >> "Just go through the precheck." And it was beautiful. And it was a it was a micro little thing. >> I can share it if you're curious. >> Yeah, of course I'm curious. >> Yeah, so I'm sitting there waiting to hear myself talk. That's why I'm here to talk to you. >> I'm sitting here staring against the wall because in Zen you stare against the wall with your eyes open. And you're staring about 3/4 down kind of just glancing on. I'm working on my koan. And for people who don't know how you do that is essentially on the out breath you just slowly internally say your koan. It's almost like a mantra in some sense, but a little bit more >> involved. Confounding. [clears throat and snorts] >> Yeah, it's like a question you're kind of asking yourself slowly that doesn't make sense. And eventually it pops. But, what happened is I had about 2 seconds of this sense that there was and this is going to be hard to explain because it's not from the world of thought, which are is already hard to explain. >> It's like a sneeze in the perineum. >> No. >> All right. >> Close. I had a sense of nothing lacking. >> Mhm. That sounds nice. >> Nothing needed to be added and nothing even possibly could be added and nothing possibly could be taken away. Because everything at that moment was full in the way that it should be. >> Mhm. >> But what was interesting about it is it wasn't an emotion. It was just like a steady state of being. So it wasn't like, "Oh, I feel free right now." No, none of that. It was just like, "Oh, this everything is here perfectly present. And it was just wild. >> Wild in what sense? In the felt sense of that experience or >> Wild in the sense that >> Wild in the I just drank too much tequila after not having much >> I haven't had any tequila, but in the sense that we often times so often like go inside in in our into our brain to try and find something. Figure something out. An emotional state that's either bothering you or feels good or feels bad or something else. And then just to know that everything and I don't mean like objects. Everything was one unit of nothing lacking. >> Mhm. >> And it was just a micro sense of kind of like, "Oh, there's actually nothing to do." Because everything's already here. >> Yeah. >> And they talk about this in Zen a bit where you already have everything that you need. >> [laughter] >> Mhm. >> So it's just they call it the removal of the veil. So it's like it's an expansive awareness that you get from a deep continued practice over years and decades. >> Mhm. >> But it was already there all along. >> Can I give a shameless plug? >> Yeah, let's hear it. >> All right. So you and I are both involved with The Way, which is this guided single path meditation app, which is guided by Henry Shukman who you mentioned. And it's the such a progressive development of skills on a single path, which I really like. As opposed to just what is the meditation de jour with no coherence. >> Mhm. >> And a few of my favorite meditations, I have a lot of different sessions bookmarked. I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And by the way, for people who are like, "Oh, these guys are just selling their bags." I do think it can be a good business, but this is sort of a ideologically philosophical investment >> Mhm. >> of time and money. >> Right. It's like the reason we invested in the dog aging study with rapamycin. It was like University of Washington, it's like this needs to exist. >> It exists. >> It's good for the world. Let's try it. >> Yeah. >> So sure, we've got some chips on the table, but this is this is mostly because we believe in it. And a few of my favorites, if people ever try it, Whole Earth is Medicine is one. Another one is This Too Is Me, which makes me think about what you're saying. So This Too Is Me is a meditation led by Henry, which this is going to sound maybe esoteric, but it's not. When you recognize that all of the things you experience are mediated by your mind. >> Mhm. >> Right? And therefore, like when you hear something, when you feel something, when you're interrupted by something, etc., etc., anything you can possibly imagine experiencing is also you because ultimately it is entirely mediated by your mind. Let's just use that instead of brain. >> [snorts] >> And it's incredibly, at least for me, and I'm not comparing it to your experience because I think it's probably characteristically different, is incredibly relaxing to let go, even just for a moment. Because my brain is like the ultimate >> [laughter] >> dog chasing a squirrel kind of brain, right? Like I'm always looking for something to fix, something to improve, what I need to do, what is happening next week. And meditation is You are the squirrel. I am the squirrel. It can >> [laughter] >> Yeah, right. It can be excruciatingly painful, right? Like meditation can be super hard. Super super hard. But when Henry gives you permission to include all of that as you, I know this might sound very bizarre, it allows you to kind of drop this burden that you didn't realize you were carrying. So, in any case, you don't have to do a week-long meditation retreat. If you're just doing 10 minutes twice a day, and I do think there's some alchemy to twice a day. I don't know why exactly. I have some theories around vagus nerve stimulation and stuff, but you get a lot out of it. So, in any case, I didn't mean to interrupt your story. >> No, I think there's two things that I love that Henry says quite often when he starts some of these meditations, which is take everything that you came in the door with, like all the thoughts, worries, emotions, things, and leave it at the door just for now. You can come back to it in 20 minutes. But just for now, the permission to set those things down for yourself just for now is such a beautiful thing. And then like the little instructions where he's like, "Drop your jaw an eighth of an inch." And I'm like, "Whoa, I didn't even realize it. I was clenching my jaw." >> you something crazy about that? >> Yeah. >> All right. So, I got fitted for a mandibular device, which is a fancy way of saying a double decker mouthpiece. Yeah, that is an easier approach to resolving sleep apnea or snoring. So, I don't snore a ton, but every once in a while I do. Drives my lady insane, understandably. And if you take the jaw and drop it down an eighth of an inch and forward an eighth of an inch, you open your airway. >> Mhm. >> And I was thinking about that because Henry will often say, as you're alluding to, like drop your jaw and leave it forward as if it's resting on a small pillow, ever so slightly. And it increases your air flow. >> Mhm. >> I mean, these ancients hit on some stuff by trial and error that really just works. It's like, yeah, if you want to have better respiration while you're meditating and better alignment and blah blah blah blah blah. Just do it, Henry's describing. And I will say his dulcet British tones. >> Yeah. >> If you just want a relaxing voice >> Yeah. >> that will help you with chilling the [ __ ] out when your monkey mind is ricocheting inside your skull, like try Henry out. Like you can find free stuff everywhere. I've had him on the podcast a bunch as well as meditation Mondays for a while, which were these very short episodes of guided meditations. In any case, >> Yeah. >> it's great. I've been so It's right word. I mean, overjoyed is sounds too dramatic, but I'll just say happy for you to watch your path with meditation cuz it seems like you get so much nourishment and grounding from it. And no offense, like you're kind of a spaz. >> [laughter] >> You're kind of spaz. Like you get excited about [ __ ] and then you drop stuff that is very well exemplified and like, "Tim, you got to buy this stock." And then you never tell me when you sell and I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] I'm fucked." >> Oh, you want to talk about >> Hold on. Hold on. No, no, no. Okay. >> [laughter] >> Cuz you lost win. Yeah. >> You should have held. It's fine. >> No. But anyway, literally Tim gives me this tip and I'm like, all right, I'm in. And then like a day and a half later I'm down like >> I know. That's why you got to wait. But the point of the story is I thought this meditation thing, just like every 9 months you're like, I'm moving to Android. And I'm like, yeah, let me start the timer for 2 weeks before you come back to Apple. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I'm like, yes, meditation thing. Yeah, sure. We'll see. I give it 2 weeks. And you've stuck with it. >> Coming up on 5 years now. >> Yeah. It's really made me happy as your friend to see something that gives you that consistency. >> Mhm. >> That's it. There's nothing more to add. I've been really What's the right word? Not sure of the right way to put it. I've just been very reassured >> Yeah. >> by you having that constant in your life. >> One of the things I'm curious about, speaking of constants and kind of I can't how things changed since we've known each other and you had hair and all that other [ __ ] My hair wasn't great. >> got plenty of hair. It's not on my head. Yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] The braids down there. The The question I'm I'm I'm curious about is I've been thinking a lot lately as I I kind of march towards 50. What are the things that I've always said that I want to do that I'm just like, you know, I've got a thousand bookmarks on Instagram, like all these Japanese woodworking things and like >> Little little always woodworking. Well, I got you got to have the You know what it is? How bad of my Speaking of the monkey mind and bouncing around. I literally have, for some reason, the algorithm is now giving me like those [ __ ] boats inside of bottles, people making the boats in the bottles. I'm like, am I going to be a boat in the bottle guy? Like, I don't know, maybe. Like, I realize now, I think the next couple decades I want to stop bullshitting myself and stop saying like, hey, one day. One day I'll get into Japanese woodworking. One day I'll do this. and really start doing some things. >> Yeah. >> You've been really good cuz you archery, hunting, like the stuff that you've gotten into, you've gone deep on the last few years. >> Yeah, super deep. >> Are there there any things that are on your kind of bucket list of things where you say one day, you know, you're busy with your podcast and all the other [ __ ] you got going on? >> shoot me in the head. It's [laughter] It's fine and it's fun most of the time, but it's so crowded and it's like, man, if if 20 other people are trying to do the same job, I don't want to do this job. Yeah. >> It is wild how many new podcasters there are out there. >> Well, also and they're also optimizing every little freaking thing. >> All the thumbnails and stuff like, what you need to know before your crypto crashes next week now and I'm like, God, this >> Yeah. >> I just don't want to play that game and for me, I would say the most top of mind is rock climbing, actually. I just did some outdoor rock climbing a couple days ago and I love rock climbing. I was always for at least the last 15 years limited by my right elbow, which I had surgically repaired, so it's ready to go. And I want to do some multi-pitch stuff in Yosemite. >> Dude, let's go. >> Yeah. >> So >> I don't know if I want to say this. >> [laughter] >> All right, that's a good start. >> So, you know who's a big rock climber? He's >> Yeah. >> And he goes he goes out to to Yosemite. >> I'm sure. >> We should go cuz he's invited me to go up there and do some climbing. >> who'd be good. >> Apparently he's amazing, so and I'm like, dude, I can't go do multi-pitch with you in Yosemite. He's like, "Ah, just come out, we'll have fun, blah blah blah." >> No, that's how you end up [ __ ] We need >> [laughter] >> Exactly. I did multi-pitch when I was like 24 and it was like three pitches. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Like I didn't I didn't [laughter] do Yosemite. >> Yeah, I know. That's a commitment. >> Yeah. So, the idea of having something like that to strive for, having some type of physical goal like that for me is very helpful, because just not dying, like training to not die sooner than is necessary is not sufficient for me. I'm just like that's such a depressing, uninvigorating goal. I'd much rather have something that has a deadline, right? It's like, all right, you need to be able to do X. In the case of the archery, it's like Lancaster Classic, here's the date. You need to do this type of training and this type of volume with this type of deliberate practice in order to be prepared to train and then compete. Right? Okay. Similarly, for something like a multi-pitch, it's like, okay, you can break that down, and I just enjoy doing that stuff. >> Dude, so let me ask you a question. The number two, I don't know if you saw this on my my story list. The number two story I had was this guy Michael Eckhardt. Do you know who >> Tommy, no, no idea. >> Oh my god. Okay, so Huberman and Rogan and all these guys, they've they've talked about him publicly about this guy. He has won multiple pull-up world championships. >> Okay. >> And dude, when you watch him do a pull-up, he's kind of one of those guys that can bring the bar all the way down and do like the typewriter style. >> like where you can walk with your feet and [ __ ] >> all the calisthenics stuff. >> Yeah, but he has a series of videos that that teach you how to do finger strength training. And I bought his course, and I'm doing this right now. But you got me into that wooden device. >> The Nug. >> Yeah. >> So, dude, you got to watch his videos. They're amazing. And seriously, Joe's really into them. Like this guy is My name is Michael Eckhardt. You can find him on Instagram, and it's all about grip strength, pull-ups, and he's not big, but he's shredded. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And I think when I think about like the next 10 years, like I don't need to be big big. >> It's probably not >> Right, especially for rock climbing. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, you need to be lean, right? And strong. And that's what I love about this. So, I'm I'm into I'm doing these every single day. One, two days in. >> [laughter] >> Just like I'm getting into it, you know? >> Tell us about the Nug, cuz that was something you turned me on to. >> I mean, I have it in my suitcase at the hotel here. It's just a simple little wooden device. It looks like a very large bar of soap with these different indentations carved into the sides. >> Like little finger indentations. >> Yeah, exactly. So, you can use a carabiner to connect it to say a cable machine of some type in any gym. And like you could use a loading pin and all this that and the other thing and a daisy chain, but let's put it that aside. At a gym, you could use a cable and connect it through the loop with carabiner and work on your hand strength. >> And you brought this to Santa Fe when we were out there doing that meditation thing, yeah. >> I did, yeah. I mean, it's literally something small enough to slip into my sweatshirt pocket, so it's easy to travel with. I always travel with that and a band for multiple purposes for like something like called DNS kind of core exercises and I >> Oh, yeah, I know DNS. >> Yes, so I use a band for that and it's incredibly easy to travel with. And then a handful of other things, something called Alpha Ball, which I use for different types of kind of mobility. It's the size of like a very large soft soft ball. And all of this stuff fits into the corner of a suitcase. And then I'll do also something that uh maybe we haven't talked about called Abrahamson's, which so Abrahamson, Emil Abrahamson, very well-known rock climber on YouTube. And Abrahamson's >> I'm writing this down right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Abrahamson's are pretty simple. I mean, it's partial body weight hangs in different positions for 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off for 10 minutes. And you do that twice a day. And it's very, very moderate in intensity. >> With like a wooden kind of rock climbing kind of like type >> could use a a hangboard. >> Hangboard, yeah. >> I mean, you could also use a pull-up bar, depending on how you position your hands. And that's what I was doing in Santa Fe. Was that kind of stuff. 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off. And the endurance and strength gains that you get in your hands just insane. You're I should say your lower arms. And it really helps. So, I've been doing indoor climbing, but ultimately I'm like, "You know what? As a stretch goal, multi-pitch outdoor Yosemite." >> Yeah. >> And I am deadly terrified of heights. Deadly Like just talking Like look I don't even need to just look at my hands. Like I'm sweaty just talking about it. >> Dude, when I watched Free Solo my hands were sweating the entire time. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> For people who haven't seen that documentary, even if you're not into rock climbing, that is amazing. >> Yeah, watch Free Solo. It'll freak you out. So, that's one that I'm thinking about going deep on. I'd say that's very high up on the list because >> dude. >> We're going to be in the >> Let's do the together. I can come with you. I'm totally down. >> down. I'm into it. I am totally into it. I mean, rock climbing when approached in a reasonable way, like a systematic reasonable way, not with like crazy dyno movements on bouldering necessarily. I mean, look, younger bodies can handle it. Certain bodies can handle it. My body not so much. >> Yeah. >> I do not want to fall repeatedly from 10 15 ft up. I'm just not into it. So, in the case of doing it reasonably though, for instance, I spent a bunch of time I've spent a lot of time in Utah and climbing in some of the Salt Lake City indoor gyms, you have incredible athletes. And I'll I'll make that a little finer tuned. When I would go to the gym, it was generally like 11:00 a.m. Right? Who the hell goes to the rock climbing gym at 11:00 a.m. on a weekday? These are retirees >> Mhm. >> and moms. So, you would see, for instance, these like 60 70 75, almost 80-year-olds who were doing like 5.11 plus. >> This is when you were single, so that was like prime hunting. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. Cougarville. And you would just see these people in their 60s and 70s doing things that I could not even imagine doing with complete inversion on overhangs. Like 60, 70 ft up, you had the national speed climbing team, you had Olympians. But more than like the young guns, right? The 15-year-olds who are doing all this crazy stuff because they're impervious. >> Yeah. >> It was the people in their 60s and 70s who were climbing every day that inspired me to want to take this more seriously. So I was like, "Okay, I want to play the long game here. What can I do that's fun?" It's a puzzle. You use a lot of Tetris. >> They'd literally call bouldering they call problems. >> Yeah, problems. Yeah, exactly. And so there's a lot of brainpower involved. And also it's just to give an idea of the technicality. I mean, there are for example women who cannot do five pull-ups who can climb 5.13, 5.14. That's very, very, very, very, very hard just for people who have no reference point. Like world-class like 5.14, 5.15. Like insane, insane. Like that's when you're in the magazines. >> Oh, 100%. >> And it's because of sort of the technical deftness. And yeah, there's like ape index and other physiological factors that play into it, but that is a very long answer to your question of what I'm thinking about now, which is rock climbing. The archery was great and the competition was fantastic. I love competing. However, archery is by definition incredibly solitary. Like you're just by yourself doing the same thing over and over and over again thousands of times. And I've had enough of that in my life. I've hit my quota. I want to hang out with other people. I want >> climbing is super social cuz you sit there and you if neither of you can do it, you'll you'll be like, "Ah, like what if you put your like foot in like that and like kind of lunged up that way and stretched?" You know what I mean? Like >> Yeah, and then you can ask other people for tips, like beta, right? Like, "Can you give me some beta on this?" >> It's fun. It's really fun. I just love it. You know, I wanted to mention something if people haven't read it. The Blade Itself, which is a series. It's not very long. I think it's two or three volumes by Joe Abercrombie. It's fantasy novels. They're really good. The audiobooks are incredible. And the reason I thought of this, The Blade Itself, is because of our conversation around Owen and Toaster and, you know, a friend of mine just died in a plane crash. >> Jesus. >> Less than 2 weeks ago. >> that the NetJets one that went in Oh, you knew him? >> Yeah, Josh. >> Oh god, that was a Latitude, too? >> Yeah, I know. I know. I know. So, you just don't know when your time is up. And in The Blade Itself, I mean, there are a lot of [snorts] >> Sorry, that sucks. >> Yeah, thanks. And we weren't like super close friends, but certainly like friendly, you know, like acquaintances. Like we wouldn't be strange to text. And you just don't know when your time is up. And The Blade Itself explores this in a million different dimensions. It's really, really outstanding. I've read a lot I say that as someone who's read a lot of fantasy. And it just talks about the randomness of life or death in war, right? It's like you happen to like squat down and take a [ __ ] and the guy next to you gets an arrow through the head. It's like, it's just dumb luck. >> yeah. >> Which is a way to, I suppose, reiterate the gratitude piece that you were mentioning earlier. So, I mean, that's going to be a a tough act to follow, but >> [laughter] >> Where do you want to go from that? >> Yeah, I mean, a few things. Let's change it up a Well, let's just go straight into like working out. Have you tried this? >> Yeah, I have actually. >> Okay, I really like it. So for people that are on audio, I just got turned on to this new protein called Pioneer Pastures and it's 30 g in this little tiny shake. It's A2, so it has lactose removed and it's also from that special genetic cow. Do you know know more about the A2? Can you speak to that? >> heard about the A2. I don't know a whole lot about it. It's like the Holstein and some other cow and da da da da da. Apparently >> More people tolerate A2 better than not. >> I don't get any stomach issues or anything with this type of whey protein. Anyway, I'm not an investor or any [ __ ] like that. You can get it at Target or whatever. It's tasty as hell and it's 30 g and I don't know like I'm trying if you're trying to put a little muscle mass on. >> I love this is next to the La La Tequila. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean you can mix them if you want. >> Everything a growing boy needs. >> Anyway, I just I just wanted to know if you had tried it cuz like we always This is the random show. We do random [ __ ] >> I tried it. >> You like it? >> I do. Yeah, there was a gym I can't remember exactly. I think it was Brooklyn Barbell Club where they sold this and I tried it then and I did. Yeah, tolerated super well. Didn't get the grumpy guts >> Yep. >> as one might. >> What's your favorite protein out of curiosity? >> I mean my protein, I mean this is a softball pitch, but >> Funny you should ask Kevin. >> I mean look, I'm involved with this one, but you know what? I It's like I always disclose. Have you noticed how few [ __ ] people disclose what they're involved with? They're like, "Yeah, I've heard of this great thing. Oh my god." And they never disclose they're involved. >> The fact that you can literally go to jail for that [ __ ] >> No, I know, but the FTC doesn't enforce that stuff. Anyway, I mean right now like I'm traveling with Maui Nui as usual. This one though is kind of interesting. I probably get 40% of my protein from Maui Nui venison. This is wild harvested axis deer from Hawaii which is a long story there, but incredibly nutrient dense. >> I love this [ __ ] and this is not an ad, but I do have a hard question for you, like a real hard question. And this is how you know that it's not an ad cuz you already know what I'm about to say. >> Let's hear it. >> Processed meat, nitrates >> Yep. >> linked to a lot of cancer and bad [ __ ] What are your thoughts on that? >> This is very, very, very minimally processed. So, you can get summer sausage or the sticks. This is free of most of that [ __ ] >> What do you think that is? Cuz it is real. Like people that eat more like nitrate processed, ultra-processed meats. >> if it's ultra-processed and the shelf life is like 3 years, I would raise an eyebrow and probably hit pause. So, the fact of the matter is most of this stuff that is minimally processed almost definitionally is not going to last very long on the shelf. >> What do they mean by minimally processed? When you see like a meat stick, like what do you think about like that versus is the amount of salt content that creates the nitrate? >> No, they don't. It's actually nitrates are totally separate categories. So, you're looking to I think an easy heuristic for this is just shelf life. All right, like how long would >> How long are those uh uh >> Your eyes are going to be better than mine. If you can read this size two font on this, then you can tell me. >> that. >> Give it a go. I'll buy you some time. In the meantime >> 27 years. >> No, just kidding. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> 25 years. >> It doesn't say on here. >> Yeah, it'll say somewhere on the box. There we go. >> Oh, 27 years by. >> Yeah, 27. So, it's like less than 1 year, I think, actually looking at it here. >> Yeah, less than 1 year. Wow. >> And what makes this interesting is that this I give also Molly looks really good for 12 years. Mhm. I give her probably two or three of these a week. The way I think of this, this is peppered 10. So, there's a bunch of these different sticks. Like every professional team you can imagine uses these things in their training. But, this is made with wild harvested venison, liver, and heart. So, it has some organ meat in it. You do not taste that. It just tastes like regular jerky stick. But, I treat this like a multivitamin. So, it's I take let's call it two or three of these a week and limit it to that and then the rest of the time I'm taking their other either peppered or regular sticks. But this is when I'm on the go. I mean literally this was in my bag when I got here, right? When I'm on the go, I'm traveling with this, probably some nuts of some type like pistachios and whatever. Walnuts pretty good for a a host of reasons. And that's about it. I mean I might have a couple of servings of exogenous ketones, but I haven't taken that stuff in a couple of months. >> You told me you freaked me out. It messes up your liver. >> This is a controversial topic. So yeah, there are certain >> [laughter] >> exogenous ketones that contain something called 1,3 butanediol. It's very common. And there's a lot of debate around this. So the jury is still out, but some people believe that that can produce liver toxicity. So I consume anything with 1,3 butanediol in moderation. Now to play devil's advocate to a counterpoint, a lot of the people who are putting forth that hypothesis or claiming that's true are selling their own ketone salts. So they're actually selling a competitive product. >> I see. I see. >> So question mark, question mark. But I mean look, you can look at the peer-reviewed literature and decide for yourself. What I have decided personally is that you should use the exogenous ketones very intermittently. I have experimented a lot with every type of exogenous ketone you can imagine. >> I mean you got me on that good [ __ ] It's expensive as hell, but like that stuff goes straight to your head. The one that you didn't want to talk about. >> We can talk about it. >> You know what's funny is like when Tim This is how you know it's good. Off camera Tim's like, "I don't want to mention the brand because if I do it'll sell out and I won't be able to get my own supply." And that's how I knew I was like, "That's some good shit." If Tim wants to the his own supply of it, like you know it's good. >> Yeah, and it is good, but it's BHB I won't get too much into the technicality here, but it's beta hydroxybutyrate bonded to 1,3-butanediol. So, you're still getting that 1,3-butanediol, which means you should take it in moderation, but in a pinch, when you want to for a podcast or something like that, man, it really works. >> work. >> It really works, and I mean, I've given it to relatives with dementia, and within 20 minutes, their sentences have like 5x in length, and they're more acute verbally. It's wild. >> How do you give it? I wish they had it in pill form, because in some sense, it's really hard to give that to someone that has dementia, cuz it's like it tastes like gasoline. It doesn't taste great. It's not the worst thing. I mean, I've had a lot of foul stuff in my life. I just did a shot with this person, and I was like, "I'll do it with you." And then we went for a walk, and that was it. There are some concerns around 1,3-butanediol and balance. So, particularly in older adults, you do not want to contribute to any risk of breaking a hip. >> Yeah, 100%. >> That's just the death knell for a lot of people. >> I just had to put my mom into a different home. It's actually kind of cool. It's sad, but it's she's been falling, and they have this like like new AI orb that sits up there, and it kind of does like a kind of radar type situation, and it detects falls. >> Oh, wow. >> second she falls in the home, like they can rush in and like help her out and all that. And they they carpet the hell out of it now and stuff like that. So. >> How do you think about sort of pre-grieving that or contending with that yourself? >> In terms of >> family, that's rough. I mean, >> Yeah, I mean, >> it doesn't sound easy. >> Cuz if you like play forward the tape, right? It's like I mean, I think about this with my own parents, and it's just like nobody nobody lasts forever. It's one of those things where it's so funny, cuz when you're a teenager, and I remember when my dad was having a hard time standing and this was like when I was much younger before he passed and I was like, "Oh, dad's going to be in like the thing that I might have to like push him on it if he has to sit down." Kind of those walkers that can also be something you can push somebody on. I was so embarrassed, you know? I was like, "Oh, other people are looking at us or whatever." And now I like push my mom with pride in her walker thing and I'm like I don't know. You don't know when it's going to what's going to happen, but the only thing you can do is just make sure to show up, you know, and hang out. >> Yeah. >> And and I'm very lucky that my mom has dementia, but it it is a type that is not Alzheimer's, so it's probably vascular or something. So, I can walk in and she knows who I am. She can't tell you what she had for breakfast, but she knows who I am, which is like I'll take that all day long, for sure, you know, so >> Yeah. >> I know you have family members that are in the same boat, which is just freaking tough. >> a ton of family members with Alzheimer's. I mean, literally got a call from one of my relatives wanting to discuss interventions and it's a tough conversation because there really isn't much. Like you have to as far as I can tell, act preemptively, which is why actually this relates to another bullet of mine. >> Do you have five? >> What was that? >> How many bullets did you have? >> Oh. >> [laughter] >> How many bullets do you have? >> That was good. This is good. Of all of all the rye whiskeys, it's the only one that I can tolerate. I loathe stationary bikes. I just I I really find stationary biking to be one of the most soul-crushing things in the world. >> worst. >> However, >> Yeah. >> I mean, I've tried Peloton and didn't like their ergonomics and so on for a bunch of reasons. And then I have tried very expensive, very very expensive setups recommended to me by fancy doctors and so on, which are just like too uncomfortable. Like I'm incredibly hunched over. Like my back is basically parallel with the floor. >> What are you talking about? >> And I'm like kneeing myself in the stomach. It's so uncomfortable. >> machines? What are you talking >> I'm talking about getting on like a stationary bike, but if you're like a wasting position, you have to adopt this hunchback and like there are a million reasons why I find that uncomfortable. There is a bike, however, it's very easy to find. It's pretty common in public gyms, called the Keiser M3i studio indoor bike. I don't know why they have to make it so difficult in its nomenclature, but the Keiser M3i is unique in my experience in that you can elevate the handlebars enough to sit in a comfortable position with a decent saddle, meaning the seat, such that I can do the V2 and the V4 and all of that training for me in a comfortable position without compromising my low back, which has been a huge step forward. So, this is the only bike that I've used consistently for this kind of training and I was having a number of conversations with a neuroscientist named Dr. Tommy Wood over a period of weeks and if for instance you do something called the Norwegian 4x4, there's data to suggest that if you do it's VO2 max training, so it's very, very, very intense, but it's like >> Four on, three off. >> Four minutes on, three to four minutes off. Let's just call it three minutes. Four minutes on, three minutes off and you do that for four rounds. This is the only bike that I've been able to use to do this consistently and if you do that for I think it's three times a week for five to six months the volumetric changes, meaning the neuroanatomical changes in the hippocampus and other areas that are certainly indicated in things like Alzheimer's, lasts for up to five years. >> Wow. >> So, if you do five to six months of gutting it out three times a week >> Holy [ __ ] >> the dividends pay off for it seems up to or possibly beyond five years. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Crazy. >> Wow. >> Throw in some sauna in there and you're like good to >> Well, that's why I'm doing Yeah, I'm doing all the usual stuff, right? I'm doing the sauna and don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, sure, you don't have 30 minutes to do it. Like do 10 minutes. Like you can't do a sauna, take a hot bath. Like >> Yeah. Figure it out. >> You know what my good is that I like? >> What's that? >> It's not perfect, but it's good, which is I go on my treadmill. I set it to 4.75 or something incline. Yeah. So it's like not crazy, but it's not, you know, you can still do [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And I set it to only like 2.5 on the walking. Yeah. And I'll play Duolingo chess, cuz they have chess on there now for Duolingo. They teach you chess. It's amazing. And you can play friends and live people and all that stuff. And they do game replays and they teach and I'm learning a ton. >> Yeah. >> And 30, 40 minutes go by and you're drenched in sweat. I know it's not high intensity and all the benefits on the the cognitive side seem to be around like a lot of high intensity. Yeah, but who knows? But it's good, right? >> So it's something. >> It's doing something, right? So I've really enjoyed that. Like if you if you just want something to both be like learning and engaged and kind of like having fun, yeah, so you forget about the time. Do you know what I'm talking about where it's like you just like, oh wait, what time is it? Oh [ __ ] I've been on for 37 minutes. I can get off now, you know? Like I love that type of cardio. >> Yeah, I mean, for me, I mean, this is this is going to sound like maybe a step down, but it's like the older I get, the more I realize a little goes a long way. Like yesterday, for instance, I had a bunch of stuff stacked up and I won't bore people with the commitments, but I didn't really have any time to go to the gym and it was my day to go to the gym to do X, Y, and Z exercises. And I went in and I did three sets. I was literally in there for 5 minutes and I left. >> Mhm. >> But it's better than nothing. >> Right. Totally. >> Something is better than nothing. I'm not going to go to the Olympics with that approach, but let's [ __ ] be real. I'm not going to wear lipstick. >> [laughter] >> I mean maybe he's like a bystander like he's like in the >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Oh man. So, I'll throw some new random stuff in there. The study that got my attention has been it's been out since 2025, September 2025. This is in JAMA. And this is the title. Single treatment with MM-120 and then in parentheses lysergide, I think is how that's pronounced, in generalized anxiety disorder. Gad. The gad. [laughter] This is a randomized clinical trial looking at anxiety. Which is often comorbid meaning happening at the same time as depressive disorders. And I think this is sponsored by a company called Definium which used to be MindMed. >> I know where this is going. I just looked it up. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, well, what's interesting about this and they're not going to maybe love my comparison, but so MM-120 lysergide, I mean it's comparable to LSD. >> Mhm. Right. >> And this is a multi-arm clinical trial. They did five arms which is rare to do because the risk is that they'll blend together. So, the arm means a group who has is treated with a different intervention in this case. So, they've got placebo, 25 micrograms, 50 micrograms, 100 micrograms, and 200 micrograms. 100 mics >> This is what they give >> standard for LSD. >> That's >> That's what you can think of as a standard hit, yeah, 100 micrograms. And the results are wild, man. If you look at the HAM-A score, this is up to 12 weeks out, you can see, I'll just show you, how >> [clears throat] >> it's dose-dependent. The more you take, basically, the better it goes up to and I'm not sure how long the follow-ups continued, but where you land is you see that like the 100 micrograms and 200 are very, very close together. Like 25 and 50 are certainly a a lot higher. >> Now, are you still getting the same psychedelic experience with this stuff or >> case of this particular compound, I don't know. My guess would be yes. I could be totally wrong in that, so Tiffany, I'm feel free to correct me. I am guessing the answer is yes with MM120, but what that says to me is, "Hey, 12 weeks of relief with GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, which I've been clinically diagnosed with, that and OCD. Like 12 weeks is pretty good. And it seems like, at least according to the data in this study, the minimum effective dose would be 100 micrograms. Now, 100 micrograms, at least for me and for a lot of people, you'll be tripping your balls off, not to get too technical. >> Wait a second. Dude, it says that this was done at Neuroscape at UCSF. >> Was it really? >> Adam's lab. >> No [ __ ] Are you serious? >> I'm dead serious. I just clicked through on it. It says phase three trial of MM120 for GAD. >> Oh, that's amazing. >> trial. This is our buddy doing it. >> This is our buddy Adam. Okay. Well, I have a text that I need to send then. >> Oh my god. >> That's awesome. I wonder if I indirectly funded this cuz I helped fund some of Neuroscape stuff. That's funny. I did >> Isn't that hilarious? >> Yeah, I did not look at that. That's hilarious. Small world. >> Yeah. Okay. >> There you go. >> So, you know, it's interesting for GAD. We were talking about dementia. There's a case report with high-dose psilocybin mushrooms. I don't think it was actually psilocybin synthesized. Looking at this particular thing, it was a Japanese elderly woman with dementia, maybe an Alzheimer's, who took I can't believe they did this to her. >> 5 g, right? >> Yeah. And then she took 5 g, so Terence McKenna heroic dose. Somehow fell asleep for like 19 hours >> [laughter] >> or something obscene, >> Almost would be very, very worrisome if you're the child of said parent wakes up and then starts having like full expositional conversations in contrast with her previous monosyllabic or or single word responses to things. And it was transient, it didn't last forever, but it raises some very interesting questions. I've seen at least some case reports also with LSD producing similar effects and I've been interested in this for probably a decade. I've hypothesized this could be the case. It's just like, do you really want to give your parent like under what circumstances is it ethical to give someone hallucinogens? See, I could never do that to my mom because she was always anti all this stuff. Yeah. And then the second God forbid they have a bad trip. Like why would you want to put them through that, you know? So it's curious. I was sent something by someone I won't mention, but a very interesting case report on microdosing with LSD. With someone with dementia. Yeah. And in terms of similar to the ketones, not saying the mechanism is the same, but producing much more verbal fluidity. Right, going from like, "I'm good. It depends." Right, I have relatives who are limited to that now. Like they're basically giving answers that are non-answers. "Sounds good." Right, like these things that you could use as a reply to anything. They're not necessarily grokking what's happening. To full paragraphs. Right, which means to my interpretation, it's like offline to online. It's a really stark difference. Because with the one-word, two-word answers, like you don't actually know if they're understanding what's happening. Do you have some MM120 on you right now? >> [laughter] >> I don't. I don't. If I did, I'd probably not take it necessarily. If you see a weird cut in the the video, and then we get infinitely smarter, you you'll [laughter] know why. >> here and there. Yeah. >> Exactly. It's a flash, and all of a sudden we're just like brain dead. >> I would keep it probably to 20 mics or below. We'll see. >> But, you know, I found this pretty interesting for for GAD especially, and then for the dementia piece, but it raises a lot of ethical questions. What is ethical to use as a treatment in someone who cannot give consent? Right. >> Right. That's a tough, gnarly problem. >> Right? >> Yeah. Especially if you're dealing with stuff that is not exactly prescription medication. >> Yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing. If it goes sideways, you feel like an [ __ ] >> Well, yeah. To put it mildly, yeah. >> but if it's amazing and it gives you another, you know, half day with a parent or loved one, and you can full-on have conversations, and they see you and you see them in a way that you hadn't in 6 months like or a year, like that's amazing, right? So, >> Yeah. Or if it potentially slows the decline. Right? I I think it's too much to hope for a reversal, frankly. >> Yeah. But, there are some strange phenomena out there, man. Like, there's this >> phenomenon called terminal lucidity, where someone like on their deathbed, when they've been vegetating off this, and like they gradually Did you read that? >> I'm not sure. >> book? >> No, I didn't read that. >> Okay, cuz they they talk about that. This is well This is well documented, where people suddenly they have been basically vegetative, or >> And like the last 2 days, they come fully lucid. Yeah. >> become totally lucid. They have full-blown, extensive conversations. >> That's why I know. >> What the [ __ ] is going on there? >> Dude, I'm telling you, it is so weird to me that we think like Like, a lot of the things that we do in physical form, like what we do in life, mimics nature in many ways. And all of our data is like backed up in the cloud. And we're like, "Oh, we're not backed up in the cloud in any way." And then there's these people with like full-blown entanglements in their brain, full-on, you know, the Alzheimer's for like a decade and then they become completely lucid? Where is that coming from? >> Okay, I see what you're saying. I wasn't tracking that fully for a second. But if I'm hearing you correctly, it's like if it's all localized, now I'm saying like if all of that ability is localized within the confines of the skull, >> Mhm. >> how do you explain >> Right. >> this given all the structural deterioration. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, I don't have good answers for that. I just don't. It is a well-documented, as far as I know, a well-documented phenomenon. So it's like go figure that one out. I mean, I'm not qualified, way above my pay grade. Crazy, man. >> It's wild. >> It is wild. >> So I'll give a shout-out to somebody. We're not going to open this right now cuz we'll start chewing on them and we'll be up all night. Is that the 120? >> No, this is Nootropic. n e u t r o n i c, nootropics. >> See, that's a pun. >> Nootropics cuz these are toothpicks that I was given by a podcaster you may recognize. >> I think Chris Williamson and they have like >> They have like 20 I want to say 20. I might be getting that off, but like 20 25 milligrams of caffeine in each toothpick. >> Oh, wow. >> are a couple of other nootropics, aka >> Yeah. >> Yeah, smart drugs in there. And they're great. >> You just like suck on a toothpick. >> Because if I have cups of coffee, I will chug a cup of coffee and then if it gets refilled, I'll chug another cup of coffee and it's a problem. These actually is, in terms of pacing, have been fantastic. >> That's amazing. >> So that's been my sort of not exactly coitus interruptus for people to get that, but sort of >> [laughter] >> ad libitum interruptus. Yeah, avoiding overconsumption of coffee and other stimulants. This helps me to kind of pace it cuz even if I chew on this thing until it's fragments of wood, max I can squeeze out of it is 20 25 milligrams. >> Yeah. >> What else you got, Kevin? >> Yeah, I mean, the only other thing that I have that I think is is interesting is what's happening in the world of I don't want to talk a lot about AI cuz I'm just frankly AI'd out, but I will say that the idea that we can all now kind of take control of our productivity and pretty much anything that we want to control now like device-wise. We can do with just a few simple prompts on AI. And I had a buddy that came over to my house and he was like, "Hey, you got cameras in your house?" I have something called Ubiquity which is like, you know, like they have cameras and there it's a very common kind of household type situation when you want to have security system, front door thing, cameras, sensors, water detectors underneath like things in case things leak and you're out of town, whatever. And so I've got this whole setup and he's like, "Hey, you know, they have a full-on API where you can just tell Claude or whatever to code against it." And I was like, "Okay, this is interesting. Like, what can it do?" And so the cameras now have AI sensors where they can detect who it is that's walking in. So it's like, "Oh, Tim's coming up to your door. Oh, that's your daughter. That's your dog." What it detects my dog, Toaster. Like sees him and it puts like a little dog emblem above his head when he's walking around and it knows that it's Toaster. But the crazy [ __ ] is I was like, "Okay, well, what if I can go further and I can tell it to do actions cuz there's a speaker hooked up to it as well. So that's for security. So basically if anyone loiters in my alleyway and it detects it, it's like I have I play some like really funky [ __ ] where it's like, "Detected like loiterer in the alleyway." Like whatever and just to scare people off in case they're >> I am the Batman. >> Yeah, but you could draw the areas around where they shouldn't be which is like at your door fiddling with your door and say if they stand here for more than 30 seconds, play set audio out of speaker. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So I I like, "Okay, this is interesting. Well, what if when I walk in my house, if I'm wearing like a hat of like my favorite sports team and they're playing, it like reads me the score as like I walk in. >> Mhm. >> So, you can think about all these things where it's doing stuff based on your activity, right? So, like if you're out there gardening, it'll be like, hey Kevin, I noticed that the plant over here wasn't watered enough or like So, it's watching all of this stuff. >> Yeah. >> And so, there's a lot of if-then-than-that kind of situation. Like, if I see you doing X, so like the latest I have is I programmed it so when it sees the license plate on my car, >> Mhm. >> it automatically knows to open the gate cuz it knows it's me. >> Yeah, yeah. That's cool. >> camera looks at the license plate on the freaking car, checks it against the database, and allows me in. How crazy is that? >> Yeah. >> And for people who are listening, I'm not talking about $10,000 systems. The camera is like $200. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Anyone can do this at home, you know? And it's just wild to think about Finally, we had all these these kind of discrete systems that, you know, were you had some Nest stuff and I had some Google Home stuff. Now, they're all talking to each other. >> Uh-huh. >> So, you can just do kind of really crazy I know you would like this because you're the kind of person that you've told me before like you don't like to answer your door cuz if the delivery person is like, "Tim!" Then all of a sudden your address is called over the internet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, I know you said you don't I'm also pretty AI'd out, but at the same time, it's like I can't I can't resist going back to the opium den. It's so fascinating. >> you doing now with the with the AI stuff? >> Well, I mean, I'm more curious to hear your thoughts and predictions, frankly, because I think you're better at it, but I mean, I'm using Claude code with various APIs to do tons of like inbox analysis and stuff. Right? I'm doing a 20-year retrospective analysis of angel investing. >> Mhm. It's like, who made what introductions? Which companies did I not reply to that ended up being successes? Which did I turn down that ended up being really important. >> really want to do that to yourself? >> Well, I suspected it'd be worse than it was. I actually have not I haven't missed that many explicit opportunities. I wanted to test my own stories against data, right? Cuz I have all sorts of stories >> Right. >> about why I did certain things and why certain things worked out. And I have certain stories about my batting average. And I'm like, but is it true? >> Right. Really. >> Is it really true? Let's look at some hard numbers. >> The sad truth and I have a buddy that wears that the bracelet and you've seen me with the necklace where on the categorizes your AI and listens to you 24/7. >> Yeah. >> It's about 70-ish percent that we think we know, but is actually what we know. >> Yeah. >> Out of the 100% of like what we think we know, this is the truth. I said I wanted a dark chocolate bar at 7:00 p.m. >> Yeah. >> It's like, nah, you said it at 5:00 and you said it this way. >> And you said it was milk chocolate. >> Yeah, exactly. So, it's always about 20% off from where you actually think your brain's at. >> Sure. >> Which is brutal. >> Well, plus, I mean, that's like last week, right? If you're talking about like 15 years ago. >> I mean, if you listen to the any genesis story of any startup, you're like, >> [screaming] >> Oh my god. >> Wait a minute now. Like, this is like a startup comic working on material, but he's been working on this one 5-minute bit so long that now he believes that's actually truth. >> Yeah. >> The I mean, the sanitizing and the editing of these startup genesis stories is hilarious, and there's no reason to think that I would be or you would be exempt from it, right? When you're telling your own story, even if you're just telling it to yourself. >> So, what's the number one thing that you've learned by applying AI to your life in this fashion? Like, what's the thing where you walked away and said, "Damn, that was insightful and I'm going to change my behavior, or I learned something new about myself that I wouldn't have if I had not used AI. >> Well, I think from a holistic health perspective, by holistic I mean having enough data related to medications, supplements, predispositions, side effects, what happened to me 2 weeks ago, the LLMs have been incredibly helpful. I mean, the picture that they get and the speed with which they can deliver an answer that I can interrogate is incredible. >> What did you learn? Like, what was the thing that you learned? >> I mean, honestly, it's mostly avoiding disaster, right? It's like, are any of these things contraindicated with one another? Could A, B, or C explain D? And you have to keep in mind these things can still hallucinate, but you can I don't want to say eliminate that, but minimize it by just fact-checking across LLMs. There's that. I would say that there's a lot of insight on, hopefully, that I can translate to future decision-making related to investing, which investing for me is not just amassing more chips. What's fun about investing to me is it's a way to scorecard your thinking and decision-making. >> Mhm. >> It's just a very objective way to decide if something was the right or the wrong decision. And you can fine-slice that, and there are ways that you could maybe question that, but if you're asking yourself, "Was I thinking well last month?" That's not a very helpful question. Where do you go from there? >> Mhm. >> If you're logging maybe every decision you make every day and then trying to cross-reference outcomes with blah blah blah, like, yeah, but you're never going to do that. >> Mhm. >> But when you're making relatively frequent investments, you can do that. You can also run counterfactuals, right? What if I did the opposite? What if I had not sold that? What if I had kept that? What if I had done this? What if I had done that? >> Is that worth your time, though? >> At the end of the day, you can put everything into S&P 500 and just go to bed. >> Well, there's that. I would say it's worth it to me because I find it interesting. I actually enjoy the intellectual exercise of it. But, otherwise, I would say with in terms of like how AI has has impacted me, I would say that the honest answer is not that much because most [ __ ] isn't worth doing in the first place. People are finding very very clever ways to expedite automating workflows of all different types, and doing something well does not make it important or worth doing in the first place. So, there's a lot I think the level of [ __ ] that is being done just at a very fast efficient rate is skyrocketing. >> Yeah. >> But, simultaneously, there are definitely cases where I look back at, say, this analysis of 20 years of stuff. To do that manually would be impossible. >> Sure. >> All right, it would take me a year full-time with multiple people to do that. And with a Claude code, Gmail API, and leaving my computer running for a handful of hours a few times, that's like what you get back is [ __ ] credible. Like, it's unbelievable, and I haven't even scratched the surface. >> Yeah. >> I will say also another way that AI has maybe affected my life in a net negative way, and I'm not We have another mutual friend who maybe we shouldn't name, who feels very similarly, is >> [laughter] >> We'll bleep that out, but yeah. Jesus Christ. So, if you train AIs on your writing, they're really good. >> Yeah. >> And I think I feel This is a stretch of a comparison, obviously, cuz I'm not an adept like a world-class Go player, but when AlphaGo defeated one of the top Korean players. >> Mhm. >> He was kind of like, I'm done. Like, Like, I don't find joy in this anymore. >> Yeah. >> If we're playing against machines. >> Yeah. >> And when I see these AIs very beautifully, I'm not going to lie. And they're we're like in the top of the first inning, right? This stuff is going to get so much better. Spit out stuff that is so much better. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I can still write, but what they can do in 30 seconds is what would take me 30 hours. >> Right. >> just like, [ __ ] It really drains the motivation for me to put in those 30 hours. >> Yeah. >> Why wouldn't it? Of course it would, >> Right? >> Yeah, but in some sense, you can consider it a really good co-pilot because for it to come up with novel ideas that would engage an audience, that's still the holy grail where it's not quite there yet, right? Like, it's going to make you sound it's going to button up your copy. And it might expand upon it in ways that you wouldn't, but it's not going to come up with the original thesis for the whole thing, right? >> Yeah, it's going to have trouble with the original thesis, but even there, I think it does a pretty good job. >> Really? It's getting better. I haven't tried with writing stuff, so >> Well, if you just do a data dump and you're like, create >> Oh, oh, you sent me that link. >> Yeah, if you if you just do a data dump and you're like, create >> sent me that link, you were like, what should Tim do in the next 5 years or whatever? >> Oh, yeah, that was good. >> That was really interesting. Tell people what you did because like, they might find this they could apply it to their own life. >> Sure. So, you could do this in whichever model you're using, whether it's you know, Copilot or ChatGPT or whatever. If it knows you, >> You can tie in your inbox, too. >> Yeah, you can tie in your inbox. In my case, I didn't do that, but if it has enough history on you, you can just ask, what do you think I should do in the next 5 years? What might be some rewarding paths of exploration? >> Mhm. >> I put something like that. >> Mhm. >> What are three to five ideas that you think could be rewarding career exploration for me in the next X period of time. >> So, for people listening, if if they've used AI for let's call it 3 to 6 months and you've probably given it several hundred things to think about, it will span across those conversations as long as you turn this on. It's I think it's on by default now, but it used to be an opt-in thing where you have to say, "Allow the AI to look across conversation." So, it has a holistic understanding of who you are. >> And the answers were [ __ ] outstanding. Yeah. I mean, really, really good. Yeah. And I sent it to a few friends. Sent to you. I sent it to a few of my closest friends and they're like, "That's pretty [ __ ] good." Yeah. I mean, it was really cool. It's some of the ideas I was like, "Damn, you should do that, dude." You had this one business idea for you to do and it wasn't a book and I was like, "Dude, I text you back. I was like, that's awesome." Like, "Go go build that." Yeah. There were business ideas. There were certainly kind of non-revenue, but philosophically aligned ideas. It was shocking to me. So, that's actually a very good example of something that has deeply informed what I'm mulling over as I imagine the future. I was like, "Man, that actually is a really good." Because, keeping in mind, I'm asking questions about things of interest, things I like, things I don't like. I am asking questions about different scientific interests related to Sci-Sci Foundation, my non-profit foundation. I'm asking questions about investing. I'm asking questions about writing. I'm asking questions about relationships. I'm asking questions about organizing trips for friends. I'm asking so many different questions. Am I still on the board of your non-profit? I think you're like secretary or something. Yeah, something like that. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I don't know. Maybe you were honorably discharged. I don't [laughter] know. Yeah, well, I said it was going to be a light lift. It's a light lift. >> [laughter] >> That's a very good example, right? I mean that that may be the best example because if that even 10% informs like a major next chapter, 100% like that's a big deal for me, certainly. >> And it makes me think a little bit about podcast listeners, especially. Readers also, but to a greater extent podcast listeners who come up to me and most most listeners I run into are really great and not I mean there are always a couple of weirdos, but most are fantastic and they'll say something often like, "I'm so sorry you don't know me at all and I feel like I know you." And what I say a lot of the time is actually, "If you listen to my podcasts every week or even every month, you do know me pretty well." >> Yeah. >> And then you think about a machine that never forgets. >> Yeah. >> It's going to know you pretty damn well. >> Yeah, of course. >> And it's spooky in a way. >> Yeah. >> But I started getting more out of the LLMs when I started asking questions and I have to be I think a little careful with outsourcing this and absolving yourself of responsibility to think about these things, but when you ask it open-ended personal questions in the way that you would ask a close friend, right? >> Mhm. >> What do you think are three to five creative ways I might explore things professionally in the next five years? >> Yeah. >> As opposed to something that you think is more suitable for a robot. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You get some really interesting responses. >> That's a great use case. >> Yeah. >> The one thing I've been playing around with lately that I haven't told you about yet, but you know, I think about all these AI startups and everyone that's creating all these different apps and all that stuff and for me, you know, that's kind of fun to watch as a kind of bystander being like, "Oh, cool. You're going to make this." But I I really want to explore things that just no one has done before. It's always been interesting to me more than just like iterative kind of like sanding down a lot of the rough edges. A lot of startups will go out there and be like, "Hey, you know what sucks is word processing doesn't do this, so I'm going to like make a slightly better word processor." I'm just making this up, but I like the kind of wilder, crazier, like I'd rather have it fail and say I did something new than just do something boring. >> Yeah. Oh, I get it. >> And so lately what I've done is >> so many fatalities. >> So many of you died, [laughter] yeah. Exactly. Same. What I've done lately is I've taken I went and bought a bunch of these decks of cards on Amazon that are values cards. >> What does that mean? >> Meaning like they give you like a deck of a hundred things and they're like, "What are your core values?" >> All right. >> And you're like empathy or kindness or like you like flip through them and the way they typically work is that you have like a really high value, a medium, and a low value. And then you put them in different stacks. And then you walk away and you say, "Oh, this is my high value stack of things that are my core values that mean a lot to me." And it might be 10 or 15 different cards, right? And what's interesting is to do that with like friends and partners and things like that and then compare them and say, "Hey, what do we align on? What we don't align on?" And I can imagine for like an intimate partner this would be a a pretty important thing to do, right? >> Yeah. >> And so I started there and I'm like, "Okay, I'm well I'm going to scan these cards in and then I'm going to pair it down and make these core values where you come in and say this matters to me." And it's almost like a swiping like, you know, dating app or something like yes, I'm into >> Yes, I'm into that. No, I'm not. >> Yeah, exactly. But you swipe through them and then when you're done with that then you've got your list of like these values and they can change over time. And so I think the important thing is to log that and say these are my values today, but tomorrow one might shift a little bit, right? And then I thought about contractual bonds. And so So the working title I have for it is just called bond, and where I can say like with a partner, I'm going to create a contract with you where we both have to shake on it. Meaning like a virtual shake. You think of it of almost like a SimCity like situation. This is my city, this is her city, or a friend's city, and we're going to agree that I take the trash out every Tuesday night. >> Mhm. >> And there's an emotional shake on both sides, and if I break this bond, it results in what? And so from the partner's side, it would result in a 1 to 10 on how much damaging this is to me. So not taking the trash out probably be like, "Ah, that sucks cuz the trash is going to overflow." That's probably a three to most people, right? And so then I kind of get negative points in case I break that bond. But what's interesting though is that will link back to a core value of theirs and a core value of mine. >> Yeah. >> And I want [clears throat] to show up as a good partner, and there'll be a core value associated with that. And then you could see those bonds between multiple people. And the reason I say this is because I've always been one of these people historically that have said >> Yes to so many things. >> be a last minute. I'm the worst at that, you know, where I'm like, "I'm in." And then I'm like, "I'm an introvert. I'm out." You know, at the last minute, right? And so I just think that there needs to be a system where almost like a LinkedIn for like values and trust and bonds. There was a great Wu-Tang quote that's like, "Word is bond." And I always been like I really believe that. Like there's something really cool about saying, "You know, we have the Better Business Bureau." That's like the best we got, right? Like, "Oh, this person they did well by their customers >> 2,000 times. >> What about individuals in saying like, "Hey, this person was always empathetic towards me." Or this person was kind and helped me move on a Sunday. >> all this? >> I don't know. I'm just thinking about it. Just like The thing I think about is that there's >> Well, I can't No, hold >> No, hold on. Let me give you the real answer. I call this dark information. >> Dark information. >> Yeah. So dark information is information that exists in the real world, but we have yet to put in physical form. >> Okay. >> And so right now you and I have a trust thing. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You know that if the camera was turned off, there's certain things that you can tell me that you're pretty certain I will not tell anyone else. >> Right. >> Every once in a while I do, >> [laughter] >> but you know where that line is, right? But that hasn't been concretized in any type of like visual real format. >> Mhm. >> And so there's something interesting. I'm just brainstorming with you in real time because we've had a couple of drinks, but like my point is if there was a system where I could say I've created these bonds, I've built up this reputation, >> Mhm. >> but it would also give me a way to reflect back and be like, "Oh, you know what? I can see now historically that I've often bailed on events that I've signed up for. Let me improve that in myself, right?" The whole point of what you brought up a minute ago was if I use AI to go back historically and look across things, I can detect these trends and then make course corrections based on those trends, right? And so there's something interesting about this idea of there are these different facets so there's these like emotional facets we have with every individual, how might we track those? >> Well, what jumps out of me about this is maybe a cool use case would be identifying you could write it out or you could have cards, your values, but maybe to put a finer point on it, the type of person you believe yourself to be. >> Right. But that's very different than what people perceive you to be. >> Or or the type person you want to be. >> Right, exactly. >> it's like, let's take a look at your calendar and your email and your iMessages to see how much your story of what you think you are or what you want to be matches up with your behavior. >> So remember maybe 7 years ago you did a 360 review for me? >> Yeah. >> Those things are brutal. >> For people that don't know what 360 reviews are is like you give 10 of your friends to somebody, they interview them, they collect all the data anonymously. >> Could could be like co-workers, employees, bosses, >> friends, whatever. And then you get a report back being like, "Here are the deficiencies and positives that this person brings." >> Anonymized. >> Brutal. >> And they are very different than what you think you're how you show up. >> And so like that's the idea. >> was looking at mine from like 12 years ago. A couple years ago and I was just like I was just like >> I know. So tough. >> I know. >> You get it back and you're like >> Who said this? >> I know. >> Somebody >> of his >> Brutal. >> I know what you said, by the way. Do you ever use the word child rearing? >> Child rearing? >> [laughter] >> Would you ever say that? >> Child rearing? I mean >> To throw me off, would you ever say that? >> To throw you off the scent trail? >> Because before I had kids, somebody in my anonymous 360 review said like, "Oh, he's going to have a hard time with child rearing." >> know, that wasn't me. No, that's not me. No, that's not me. >> I don't have any friends that even have that in their vocabulary. And I'm like, the only person that could do that would be Tim trying to throw me off with a [ __ ] smart-ass word. >> wasn't me. That wasn't me. That [laughter] wasn't me. No, no. I think I'd be able to identify whatever response that I gave. >> That's the one thing that stuck with me after like 15 years. I'm like, "Who the [ __ ] said that?" [laughter] >> Man, you're lucky if you got off with that. I've got so much more. Good lord. You know what I've been doing that has been really helpful because the blank page is something I struggle with with writing, which is probably the reason why the AI is so demoralizing in a sense because the AI allows you within like 30 seconds, which is like, "Boom. How you like me now? Try to match that." But using even though I certainly don't know the future of this company cuz they might get replaced by features that are innate to X, Y, or Z, but WhisperFlow >> Oh, god, I love it. >> Yeah, so using WhisperFlow as a data dump >> I wish I was an investor in WhisperFlow. >> may have recommended this to me, I can't recall, but basically doing a dump of a conversation as I'm walking with WhisperFlow >> Yeah. >> into a note on my phone, >> Mhm. then taking that, dropping into Claude, asking it to like clean it up and turn it into something readable has been so helpful. Not necessarily for publication, but for emails, especially uncomfortable emails where you're like, "Oh god." Like I just like I'm putting it off and procrastinating cuz I don't want to do it. Just doing like a 10-minute brain dump, it's shocking how quickly things come together. Like incredibly helpful. And I'll just give a shoutout to my friend Alon Lee, co-founder of Exploding Kittens. He recommended this headset cuz I was on a call with him. I'm like, "Man, that audio is awesome. What are you using?" >> Can you put it on just for the viewers at home? Cuz it's it's going to look as good as I hope it does. >> It looks so good. Yeah, it's pretty good, right? So, this is the Shokz, s h o k z, Open Commute UC, open-ear bone-conduction headset. So, he was talking. I'm like, "What the hell are you wearing?" I was like, "Audio's really good." So, it looks pretty dorky. This is like a >> No, it's great. >> [laughter] >> And the bone conduction is right here, effectively my cheekbones. And when you first use them, you're like, "Wait a second. I feel like this is playing out of speakers. Like this is nonsense. This is complete BS." But then you totally plug your ears and you can still hear perfectly well. Which is crazy. And what I like about these is A, the audio quality is great. And you know, the connectivity varies, but the audio quality is fantastic. You can hear. So, if I'm like walking my dog, walking Molly, and I want to be able to hear traffic and so on, I can use this cuz I especially if I'm using Whisper Flow to data dump into a text file of some type, I don't really need to be listening. It's not like I'm on a phone call or a Zoom call or something. So, I find this very, very helpful so that I can actually pay attention to my surroundings. And that's all I got. It's basically this and AirPods. I mean, there there are other headphones that I will use for professional recording and stuff. But thus far, I'll I'll share one more tech thing real quick. These this little baggy here is the Sennheiser Pro Audio Condenser Microphone. It's very simple. I've just been very impressed with the audio. When I'm on the road recording stuff for the podcast like intros or sponsor reads or whatever, it's just a simple lav mic. It's so simple, but the audio quality even in a hotel room that is really bouncy, lots of glass, lots of metal where it should sound terrible, if I use a fancy like this is a Shure mic that we have right here. If I were to use this exact mic cuz I have it at home. >> Yeah. >> In some of these bouncy rooms, it would sound worse, I'm not kidding, than what I get for my purposes >> Wow. Crazy. >> with this. It's pretty wild. And I love Shure. I use their mics on a lot of podcasts, but in terms of minimizing bounce, >> Yeah. >> for whatever reason, this little baggy that I can stick in a pocket, right? It's like this is my portable sort of recording studio. >> Have you recorded on the iPhone with it? >> I have. >> It sounds good? >> great. >> That's amazing. >> And I don't have my phone with me. There is an app that you can use for really high-fidelity recording. It's called like Ferrite or >> Yeah, it's like lossless recording, right? >> Lossless recording. It's like f e r r i t e, something like that. I'll put the link in the show notes for this for people who are interested. The quality is absurd. And you can also use Descript or one of these programs to do AI cleanup, and it's crazy. >> Yeah, you didn't need You didn't need Descript anymore. Like you can just use all the models do it. Gemini's actually quite good at it multi-modal audio, video, all that stuff. >> Uh, cool. Gemini, honestly, I've been using Gemini more and more just because it's such plug-and-play with with G Suite, also. >> Yeah, I mean 3.5 Flash like is a great model. Although the new Sonic just came out and that's for men throbbing that just came out and that's I haven't played with it yet cuz it was literally launched today and it's it's supposed to be fantastic. >> What do you think the landscape looks like in a few years? You got Anthropic and Open AI racing to IPO, see where that goes. You've got Mythos / Fable taking off. >> Mythos is out tomorrow. >> Right. Right. Okay, was it national security threat yesterday but it isn't today. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What do you think? I mean, I think >> It's the big three. It's three players. It's Google, Anthropic and Open AI. >> Mhm. >> And X is trying and I would never ever count out Elon. Obviously like he has the funds to make it happen. >> Well, also Anthropic and Google are buying excess capacity from Colossus, right? >> Yeah, but that means that their product isn't working. >> Yeah. >> Because they bought that capacity for themselves. >> Right. >> So that means that no one's using Grok, you know? I mean, I actually like Grok. I use Grok more than people might realize. >> Here's what's interesting about it. >> For current events and synthesizing. >> Yes, so they have direct access to the X API and they has actually X tools built into Grok. So if you want to like get, like you said, current events, news, things like that. And they've also said that it is one of the most grounded models and doesn't hallucinate. So that it's really good at. And so on Dig, when we relaunch it, we use a lot of AI to kind of come up with the different stories and all of that. We use it a ton because we want that grounded information that is true, you know? And so it's really important to have that. And I I don't know. I mean, I think I wouldn't count them out. I should probably include them in that list as is. >> so big three. What do you think things look like in two years? You're very good at this. I'm not saying, obviously, this is just [ __ ] bullshitting and speculating, but what's your guess? >> I mean >> I'm pretty heavy into Alphabet thanks to you. >> You went heavy into Alphabet? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean >> And then they had a 40% pop on a four trillion dollar company. What is going on? I mean, I haven't even watched. Is it up? Oh, well, I mean, look. >> This was a while back. That's >> Yeah. >> I mean, I mean, a while back in AI time, which is like dog years. So, by that, I mean, like 5 months ago. >> Yeah, exactly. >> 5 months is like 10 years now. So, here is why I like Google. They own the full stack. >> Yeah. >> They have their own chips. >> Yep. >> And so, one of the things that I did a deep dive on was the chips that they are building, they really confused the industry. It's my understanding that they made an insanely high bandwidth and kind of memory throughput when everyone was like, "Hey, why are you opening up these channels and making them so high bandwidth for this kind of like data flow, right?" And I talked to a buddy and he was like, "Yeah, everyone was confused at first when they saw the architecture for their their latest AI chips." And then, they realized that we live in a world right now where a model drops. Like, Fable goes live tomorrow on Wednesday, right? And the next OpenAI model goes live, you know, in 2 weeks or whatever, cuz they have that rumored one. It's like old software deployment where it was like model trained, released, out. Model trained, released, out. That's the cadence we're on right now. What Google is betting, and I know I know they're all thinking this, but what Google is betting with this high throughput kind of wide memory architecture is the future is continuous learning. >> Mhm. >> And so, everyone is saying like we're 12 to 18 months out, maybe a little bit longer, from self-improving models. >> Yeah. >> So, 24/7, it's not no longer about like, "Oh, Mythos came out today. Woo, crazy." It's not about those new models dropping. It's about >> Just like a child learning day by day. >> Tomorrow, it'll be better than today, for forever. >> Mhm. >> And when that happens, and they own the full stack, so Google's got the chips. Granted, they're going to be constrained by TSMC, which is the the only player that's producing I mean, there's a few others, Samsung and Micron and a few others, but like TSMC is like the leader. And they're producing I believe they're producing Google's chips as well. But they've got the chips architecture, they've got the models, they've got the engineers. They're freaking I mean, they lost a great one like a week ago, but it's crazy what they're paying these engineers. Did you see some of this? It's like a billion dollars like situation. Like it's insane what they're paying some of these people to like stick around. >> Meta was doing the poach also. >> Meta, I just don't think they're going to make it, man. >> Yeah. >> Listen, they have great businesses. Instagram is phenomenal. They've got these fantastic assets, but I just don't think they have the talent to pull off what these other bigs are pulling off, you know? >> What do the big three look like in two years, do you think? Cuz like Google has a lot of ventures, like you like you mentioned. Yeah, I mean, also like a vast data center expertise. >> They have the data centers, they have Android, yeah, which is like 60 some percent of the population or something like that. So, they have the install base. >> Mhm. >> I have a hard time believing that if you believe that AI inference and all the costs associated with AI eventually kind of settles, and it's affordable, and yes, it'll probably be like a Netflix type plan where we're all like, oh yeah, that's our extra $30 a month to get all the AI [ __ ] whatever. If it's coming on your device, and also Google's powering a lot of Apple [ __ ] Although Apple has some unique tech. It's interesting. Apple is kind of coming up. I wouldn't write off Apple either. Apple's another one, but they're probably another couple years out. I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, for me, I'm old enough now to want not want to be like, hey, this is the 10Xer. >> Yeah. >> Actually, this is interesting. I called on your podcast. I don't know if you know this, but like 4 years ago, I was like, dude, Nvidia's going crush it." Blah, blah, blah. There's some been some dumb predictions. We've definitely made some bad ones, too. So, I'm not going to say it's been all good, but we've called out some stuff. >> In the world of AI, I don't think it's winner take all. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Unless somebody hits some kind of crazy escape velocity that is like truly it's like aware. >> What do you think? Just I'm curious cuz you're you're so much better at this kind of stuff than I am. I'm like good at my dumb little corners here and there, but you've worked at Google. >> Yeah. >> And you worked on their ill-fitted social product at one point, right? What was it called? >> Can't remember. >> Google Plus. >> Google Plus, right? >> it was horrible. I left right away. >> Right. And very wisely segued to Google Ventures. I guess my point is like when people think consumer, not enterprise. When they think AI right now, they think ChatGPT, right? >> Yeah. >> ChatGPT has raised a ton of [ __ ] money. >> Yeah. >> They've got to figure out ads, almost certainly. That's not easy. That is very, very, very hard to do. Like I'm pretty familiar with the ads business at Google. Very hard to do at high level, right? However, when average Joe or Jane on the street thinks AI, they think ChatGPT. >> Mhm. >> And when I have tried to set up the Gmail API for Claude, the process on the Google side is such dog [ __ ] Like the UX is terrible. Like it is so bad. >> Yeah. >> And I'd [snorts] like to think myself reasonably decent with tech stuff, not as not as technical as you are. But pretty good, I would like to think. Nonetheless, I need someone like on my staff to walk me through step by step to do it cuz it's so counterintuitive and there are errors all over the place. And then you've got, you know, Anthropic, which is if we are to believe the headlines, on ARR just like crushing, right? On the enterprise side. Like the fastest scaling business of all time and on a lot of different measures. However, right? They've gotten a number of pretty strong [ __ ] slaps from the administration. At the same time, it seems unlikely that any of these frontier labs are going to be left unconstrained by the government. >> Right. >> So, that's like a huge question mark. >> Uh I think China will push that. >> Okay, tell me. >> Well, so China's been launching new models and they just did one in like a a week ago that is on par with Fable. >> Was that Alibaba or someone else? >> No, it's a >> Doesn't matter. >> Yeah, so it But these are open-source models. So, it's actually really interesting because China is like, "Okay, listen, we're going to open source this and people will use our tech." They're almost doing it the American way. >> Yeah. >> Like they're not close sourcing anything. They're like, "Okay, here's the free model. Come use ours because you can run it yourself if you want locally. And that is going to be increasingly I think that will be increasingly common. >> Yeah. >> Like AMD came out, I don't know if you saw what she of the CEO, she's brilliant. She came out with this new box that is this like little $4,000 box or somewhere around there and it can run like these massive multi-billion parameter models locally. And so, those charges that you were getting for, you know, like $1,000 a month or $5,000 a month or whatever in AI expenses is now just that one box that just runs the model locally. Now, granted, it's probably 8 months behind in terms of like the model it can run versus the frontier models. >> who cares? >> For a lot of people, who cares? >> From a business perspective. >> Yeah. >> And I know that's tightly related to all sorts of technical considerations, but where do you think Google, I still hate hate saying Alphabet. Let's just say Google >> The word on the street is that they have models that are are more advanced than Fable. They have not launched them because one, the government's going to step in and stop them. >> Yeah. >> And two, they're are expensive to run. >> Yeah. >> And it would cost them a lot of money. They would lose money doing so. And so, I think in a year, we're really like 12 months we'll really know where Google's at. >> Mhm. >> Cuz yeah, I'm telling you they're holding [ __ ] back. >> they are. >> They're holding [ __ ] back cuz they have the bankroll to do that. >> And it's [ __ ] Google. >> Yeah. >> Like you don't understand. My time there, Sergey took me and I'm not saying this is a flex. I'm just like this is just what happened. Sergey took me and Bill Maris, who ran Google Ventures, smart dude. Bill's amazing. Through Google X. And this was years ago. And we got to tour and he was like, "That's the moonshot factory." And it's like, "Dude, you already work there and like they make you sign [ __ ] when you walk in." Don't [ __ ] say anything about Google >> X is like the Willy Wonka. >> So, I'm like seeing the Waymos before they even talked about them freaking 10 plus years ago, you know, like before it was even a thing. And so, I saw all the crazy balloon projects and a couple others they shuttered that I can't even talk about, but I'm telling you >> They're sitting on tech that's like 5 years out. >> Yeah. >> That like don't underestimate how many freaking PhDs they have working on this [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> You just can't imagine what's under the hood there. >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> So, for me, I'm not a fan of like at this point when I think about investing into the future and this is not investment advice, when the Anthropic's and the OpenAIs and the Google's, like you name the top five, it's kind of almost like what they said back in the day when they had the acronym they used for like Netflix, Google, what was the uh >> It changes all the time. >> But you know what I'm talking about. >> FANG. >> FANG, yeah. Like FANG was a thing and then there's another one and there's another one. You're going to want to own like those five, you know? And you'll sit back and you'll be like, "Damn, if I only just owned Google, I'd be up like 70%." But you're like, "Oh, you know what? In combination, I'm up like 30% and the market's doing 10." You'll be stoked, right? >> sent me a graph. We can delete this if we need to. >> 100. >> Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, for you looking forward, right? Cuz you bust my balls about some of the swings that I take, which is is good. You should you should No, no, you should bust my balls. I bust it because I'm like, "Tim, what are you optimizing for, dude? Another zero? You don't even know the zero on the bank account." I get it. I get it. I get it. But I'm asking you, right? I mean, look, we're all looking for the feeling of being alive. Part of the way I feel alive is by taking some swings, right? >> Fair. >> Okay. My question for you is, you're not you're not just going to do S&P 500. You got to have that high to believe. I dabble. Okay. So, if you were >> you. I bought Waymo stock, and you got pissed at me cuz I didn't offer you any. >> He's such a prick. >> [laughter] >> Keeps all the the shiny stuff for himself. He's so such a greedy little piglet. >> know you wanted it. Oh, >> You 100% know that I wanted it because [laughter] I sent This is actually turned out pretty well. It's part of the reason why I pulled the trigger on Google was such a simple approach. I took five names. Was it It was like Google, Anthropic, Open AI, Waymo, handful of other companies. And there's Vercel, Cruise, a couple of others. Yeah, man. And and I sent this list out, and I sent it to like, I don't know, five smart people I know who are very very good investors have good track records cross asset classes. >> Mhm. >> And a few of them sent that to like their technical analysts who specialize in different fields. And I was like, "You But I was like, uh maybe maybe not." And I was like, "You have 10 chips. Where do you put those 10 chips as a bet? That's it." No further guidance, no caveats, no explanation. And look, I'm not [clears throat] saying this is the most sophisticated investment thesis in the world, but you know that I wanted Waymo cuz it was on that list, and it was one of the winners that came back in terms of if we are to believe the consensus of this small cohort. >> fair, I offered you some of my own purchase, and you you turned me down. >> I might still take you up on it. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Just you wait another 6 months and the valuation will decline. I'll say, "Hey, remember me, brother? I have I'll give that a call. >> Saw the news. I would love to revisit our conversation from earlier. >> But I think for the average person listening like the good news is that these companies are going out soon. >> Yeah. >> Like meaning they're going to be publicly traded companies. They may seem very expensive and very pricey and you'd be right to say that. And so did Amazon when it went out in 2000, you know? >> I mean, what was the market cap when Amazon IPO'd? >> It was like >> It's got to be tiny. >> No, no, no. It's not about market cap, it's about the price to earnings, right? >> Yeah, okay. All right. >> So I looked at >> Well, now price to earnings will depend a lot I mean, it's going to be very different for Open AI and Anthropic, right? >> Well, what's crazy is SpaceX is like 30% bump bump price earnings on the peak of Amazon. So like SpaceX is like, did you invest in SpaceX or no? >> Yeah, I started investing in SpaceX like 10, 12 years ago. >> Oh, so you're stoked. >> Uh I mean, look, yeah, I'm fine. But you know, I would say here also it's like if you're like, "Oh, I missed it because only the fancy people get to invest beforehand." It's like, "No, I mean, uh SpaceX right now I'm looking at the chart launched at 160 like had this huge bump obviously, but then dropped down and like you could have bought it for 156, 154, 153 and now it's climbing back up. I mean, there's a lot going on here and >> Yeah. >> honestly, I still find public equity investing terrifying cuz there's so many sharks and there's >> Yeah. >> short sellers and like derivatives and all this craziness going on. And like what happens when it's listed and put into these indexes and blah blah blah like all those dynamics are way beyond my >> That's why I don't do the day trading thing. >> I don't do day trading. >> No, I'm just saying like for example, SpaceX I don't have a position in SpaceX, but if I did, it would be to hold it for the next 10 years. >> Here's a good takeaway. You're asking like what's what's the takeaway from like my 20-year analysis of the angel investing. It's still incomplete. Like there's a lot left to do and >> Shopify. >> Oh God. Well, that's a good example, right? It's like this is going to sound so dumb and yet duh to so many people who are more just better investors than I am, but yeah, I've done pretty well. I think the decisions I made at the time to sell certain things were very logical given the information and my financial status at the time. Totally reasonable, right? So, I don't want to judge a good poker play based on like where I am 20 years hence. So, that's not reasonable. But, the takeaway is like you got to let your winners run as long as possible. >> 100%. I've lost more money by selling stocks early than I've ever probably made buying the original stock. >> And the other thing I would say also for people listening who are like, "Oh my god, if these 1%ers are jerking each other off any longer, I'm going to vomit." If you adjust and some some very famous firm did this, maybe it was Sequoia or Benchmark, I can't recall, but they looked at their gains from initial investment all the way through follow-on rounds to IPO and then 6 months post, so after lockup for let's just keep it simple for all intents and purposes, and then they looked at what you would have gained if you bought at IPO and just held for like 10 years, and you would have made as much or more if you would just bought as a retail investor. >> Yep. There is a silver lining here, which is I for some reason get fed a lot of these Instagram videos. >> You're on Instagram so much. You send me so many [ __ ] Instagram videos. You do. [laughter] >> But, the interesting thing about it is so many times as individuals, and I've fallen into this trap as well, which is you find something that you love and you buy said object when you should actually buy the company. >> Yeah. >> So, so let's just pretend you're going to spend $500 on an iPhone every year since it came out, right? >> Yeah. >> And there was this great woman that came in and she was like, "Okay, had you just for the first 4 years of the iPhone coming out, rather than buying an iPhone, >> put it in Apple. >> put it in the Apple. >> That's so cool. >> And it >> like of thousands of dollars. >> Yeah. >> And then my buddy is heavy like I love you Prager. David Prager, the second the Tesla came out, not the first one, but the one that was consumer friendly, you know. >> He went and he's like he had made a little money and he's like, you know what? I'm going to do it. I'm going to splurge. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to deck it out. I'm going to spend a hundred grand on this thing and he got the freaking top of the line Tesla. We did the math for him because we're bastards. And it it was like fifteen million dollars or something like that. Had he just invested in Tesla the second he loved the product. But the moral of the story is if you love something and this is going to happen over and over again for decades to come. If you're like, hey Claude is my [ __ ] I use it every single day. I think it's great because of X, Y, and Z and they go public like set it and forget it. >> Yeah. >> Come in whatever you can afford. I don't care if it's a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars or a hundred thousand dollars. It's meaningful at the end of the day. >> I don't know. That's a >> No, it's my right. >> It's great advice. I mean look. That's part of the reason that I've gotten so much [ __ ] from this by some VCs. I won't mention their names who are just like, what? Because they've got their like thirty slide our proprietary investment thesis [ __ ] that they show pension funds and stuff, right? And I'm like I just try to invest in stuff that I will use every day. >> Yeah. >> Right? And it's not true for everything like Commonwealth Fusion Systems. All right, I'm not using them every day, but SpaceX, you know, I mean outside of Starlink, but it's like there are exceptions, but it's like >> Yeah. >> with something like this, right? Where it's like I am eating close to half of my >> Yeah. >> protein calories every day of this stuff and I'm like, I should just invest in the company, right? It's just like that is what makes sense. You know the first stock I ever bought? This is when I was like Diltonics. >> [laughter] >> That'd be something you use every day. >> Diltonics, yeah. Can't go wrong. For people who don't know what Diltonics is that'll be another round of show notes. Um but the uh it was Pixar. >> Oh, [ __ ] >> Yeah, my dad bought me some book on stock investing. Honestly, I couldn't make any sense of it cuz it was getting into like price to earning and this and that, earning per share, and I was like, "Ah, I don't really understand this." >> That's so cool your dad bought you that book. >> It was cool. It was >> Do you like That's cool. >> It's cool. It's cool. It was his his way of like showing love, you know? Like, we can't all do it in the way necessarily people want to receive it, but >> Yeah. >> In any case, the point of that was I loved comics. I tracked comics and animation. And I saw Toy Story number one. I even saw shorts, and I was like, "That is the future." >> That's amazing. >> that's the future." >> Exactly. >> And when I was whatever, 15 or something, first stock, Pixar. I have the I have the original like shareholder poster they mailed out >> Oh, [ __ ] >> like Lasseter and Jobs and stuff. >> Oh, dude, that's amazing. >> Yeah. And for me, it's like, look at your credit card statement. Do you know what I mean? I mean, this is not investment advice. I'm just saying this is the way I personally approach it, so informational purposes only. But, it's like, yeah, if you're spending hundreds of dollars on like Amazon and Amazon Prime, it's like, well, >> maybe, who knows? >> Totally. >> You know? Are you going to be spending more or less on that in 5 years? Like, just forget about the market, forget about analysts, like you personally. Will you be spending more or less on this in 3 or 5 years time? >> That's exactly right. >> Okay. And we'll put to be something in the intro on this is not investment advice, but it's like, to be a quant hedge fund manager. >> Well, and to be fair, like when you look at Buffett's portfolio and the things that he's bought over the years, like, it's the consumer staples and the things that were just like, he's like, yes, more people will want and drink Coca-Cola in the future. It's a fantastic brand. The margins are impeccable. It's a well-run business. I know the CEO. >> It's not prone to disruption. >> Yeah, exactly. In downturns, guess what? People still drink Coke. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's like >> He's also a clever bastard, though. He's been very good with his aw shucks grandpa branding. He's very good at that, but that dude is a stone cold killer. In terms of >> Yeah. >> Geico is cash machine and >> Yeah, I know. >> being like the lender of first resort when [ __ ] goes sideways, people call Uncle Uncle Buffett and he's like, "Sure. >> He's so smart. >> Here's my offer. Take or leave." But yes, very bright guy. >> All right, what did we miss? >> Uh I The only thing I would say is that um >> Tell Bill Donahue. >> Yes, that. I relaunched If you want to learn about the latest tech and AI news, I relaunched Digg. >> You were showing me some numbers. That's crazy, man. >> It's crazy. We went from 20,000 people a week using it to now we have close to 500,000. So, it's been growing quite a bit and it's pulling across the entire zeitgeist of the web. So, we're we're like, "We don't want to insert another social network." So, we pull from X, we've pulled from a few other feeds, we've been putting in like videos from YouTube and TikTok and others and it's just been a fun little hobby. It's a fun hobby and it's like doing millions of page views a month and I'm proud of that. It's like it's awesome to see it working again. So, it's good. >> digg.com >> digg.com, @kevinrose on Instagram and uh yeah. >> Sweet. What should I say? I guess tim.blog you can find thousand plus blog posts if you want to read about my cadaver on the table, my book sales as a result of AI. That is a crazy blog post. I don't even know if you're aware of this. Oh, yeah, my uh all format book sales. >> Oh, I saw that. >> Yeah, isn't that crazy? Well, you look at the graph and it's like stable annuity, stable annuity, stable annuity, very predictable and then in 2013 because what happened in November 2022? ChatGPT 3.5. And you see a a slip by -5%, then you see a slip by like I'm making up these numbers, but they're close, -28%, then it's like -49%. >> But it turns out you're going to be okay. I'll be fine. The implications are pretty interesting and now if we continue the pace in 2026 down like 67%. These are These are sort of compounding in the wrong direction, right? I mean it's not the quite the right terminology to use but you get it. >> Yeah. >> So stuff to think about. People can check that out if you search AI non-fiction Tim Ferriss. That's a blog post that's actually pretty interesting read. But on less dystopian view ultimately the message isn't dystopian. tim.blog @timferriss on Instagram @tferriss I'm not so active on the socials cuz I've deleted those from my phone for a couple of years. You're listening to the podcast so I don't have to sell the podcast. Oh, Five Bullet Friday. >> Mhm. >> My diary. >> Can you add one? >> Can I add one what? >> I don't know. It's like six bullets. >> Well every once in a while if I'm lazy there are I'd say that's No, if I'm lazy and I'm like ah I don't want to do it cuz I still I still do this thing myself. Hold on one sec. We're almost done. Relax. You and your prostate. >> I No, no, it's not the [laughter] prostate. It's the fact that we had you gave me tequila. >> Oh, I gave you tequila. You were overserved. Hold on a sec. Just give me two [ __ ] seconds, you old man. You old bastard. Now I'm going to make this really long. >> No, Tim, come [laughter] on. >> So yeah, Five Bullet Friday every once in a while you did this to yourself turns into Six Bullet Saturday if I'm just not feeling it. But yeah, 2 million subscribers it's free, easy to unsubscribe. tim.blog/friday and that's all I got. >> All right. >> You want to go pee, old man? >> Yeah, I will. >> All right. Good to see you, brother. Good to see you. Love [laughter] you, brother. >> Love you, too.