The Psychology Research That Proves You Are Not the Problem — Your Environment Is | Angela Duckworth

effort isn't enough, grit's [music] not enough. If you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, I I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, [music] you know, only leads to uh really like frustration and burnout. >> A psychologist, a professor, [music] and a best-selling author that sold over 5 million copies of her book called Grit, the one and only Dr. Angela Dougworth. If you are trying [music] and then you're trying harder and then you're trying harder still and you do not feel like you are making progress [music] in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, I think that is the time you should stop, ask yourself, is it the situation [music] like do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like then then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing and try harder, but that I think is the signal. And I think I missed that signal. When does someone know that they should change their environment? >> There's this research [music] that uh I didn't do, but I think is like elemental to everything that I say. Um >> I'm curious to ask you first, if you could have all the grit in the world, but not have proximity to the right environment, do you believe we could still accomplish our big goals and dreams? >> I don't. I think the answer to that is is no. Grit is great. I haven't given up on grit. In fact, I think the final common path to greatness is always going to be a path of consistent effort. But effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. I think if you don't have if you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, even something as mundane as like the physical environment that you need. I mean, if you're a swimmer, like how long is the pool, right? Like, and how heated is the pool? um these seemingly trivial sometimes I guess like things that are outside of you I I think they make all the difference. I mean you know trying hard in a losing situation you know only leads to uh really like frustration and burnout. >> When does someone know that they should change their environment? >> I don't think we know as soon as is optimal to be honest. you know, there's um there's this research that uh I didn't do, but I think is like elemental to everything that I say um in this book. I I want to credit Dick Nisbet and Lee Ross, these two psychologists who studied what's called the fundamental attribution error. And in particular, um this guy Lee Ross um had a personal experience that led him to discover that when we think of ourselves and others, we often ignore the situation. And so you asked this question like when do we know it's time to change our situation? I'll tell you about what he found which is that we are so oblivious to our situation that you know it can kind of um you know be like the water of a fish. It's like I think you should be yeah I think you should be swimming over here but like you've so habituated to it you're um >> you're so used to it. >> You're so used to it that you're blind to it. his personal experience was he's getting his PhD and you he's at a round table and um of course he knows his research well like it's all he's been doing um but the you know inquisitors right these professors who are like basically they're like asking him like incredibly uh random and like sort of like abstruse questions like what was the wavelength of light used in this experiment and you know honestly instead of feeling smart he felt stupid and instead of feeling like an expert he felt like total rookie and he passed, right? But that wasn't the end of the story. So then he becomes a professor at Stanford and now he's on the literally on the other side of the table, right? So now there's this PhD student and they're defending their thesis and he's the one like asking all the clever questions and you know, you can go through anything and be like, "Oh, on page 168 you say like, "What did you mean by that?" And suddenly he >> they're like, "Uh, I don't know." Like the student's like stupid. Yeah. Like they're they're falling apart and Yeah. the student felt stupid and then he felt smart. And I think from that personal experience and then like a whole lifetime of research, he found that, you know, so often we'll be like, "Oh, this person doesn't know anything. I don't know anything. Oh, this person knows a lot. I know a lot." We think it's the person. It's really the situation. So, he later wrote a book uh called the person and the situation was not a bestseller. It dramatically influenced the work of people like Malcolm Gladwell, um Michael Lewis. Um, it's an academic book and the book says the situation is incredibly powerful, but like gravity, it's invisible and ignorable. And so, I think your question is a great place to start, which is like, how do you know? And I think oftentimes like not soon enough. Like, not soon enough. Like, maybe I should have maybe I should be like on a different team. Maybe maybe a different coach. Like maybe a different zip code, right? Like maybe my kitchen isn't set up the way my kitchen should set up be set up. Maybe my office isn't set up the way my maybe my nightstand isn't set like we are ignoring a situation that I think we shouldn't ignore. >> It's interesting you're saying this because I had a a guy who just graduated who came to my office yesterday to ask me some questions from one of the schools that I went to in college and he was asking me like if you could go back to my age 22 and if there's anything you would change is there anything? And I'm like, well, you know, everything happens for a reason. But I'm like, listen, I wish >> I would have married the right person sooner. >> Like, I wish I would have been because I was in multiple long-term relationships. >> Yeah. >> And it took a lot of energy being with the wrong people. And I don't make I don't I don't put any blame on the women that I was with and dating. Like, it's not their fault. >> Yeah. >> I chose to be with them. I chose to stay with them longer than I knew I should have. >> Yeah. >> I go, the only thing is like, you're going to be tempted. You're a good-looking guy. you're fit, you're this, you've got passion, >> you're smart, you've already got a great like a job opportunity, >> and like just make sure you date the right girl and date with the intention to marry. Don't just fool around because it might be fun in the moment, >> but it might drain your energy from actually going after what you want. So I'm curious how in your research or in your perspective if you have the right proximity and the right situation in the right environment and grit but you're with the wrong person intimately how much does that impact your ability to succeed or fail? >> You know I'm married um I wouldn't be in this chair right now if I weren't married to Jason Duckworth. Um uh and it's not because um and it's not it doesn't have anything to do with grit, right? So like I will tell you and I also wish I had married him earlier but >> how long you been married? I've been married I don't know I always lose track definitely over 25 years thinking right like 25 plus right um so um we're like that's what silver anniversary I think you're like post silver anniversary um uh I I did try though by the way I've I've always dated um according to your philosophy which is like are we not getting married >> like yeah like next um I think the average amount of time that I dated a guy was like four weeks and there were a lot of them but I did meet Jason Duckworth but let me let me say that I think when you talk about your situation like yeah it's like you know what's in your cup it's like you know do you have fruit on your counter it is also and obviously um most importantly I think like the person >> that you're with um I cannot tell you how uh how like I think Angela Duckworth is great Angela Duckworth and Jason Duckworth like like so much greater really >> um let me >> so this wasn't all you >> when I did finish this book which is um uh a very long hard road which we could talk about or not but I it was like I think I had never been so humbled as um in the 5-year journey of writing this book I you know not just the most intellectually challenging work like honestly the most personally uh and emotionally challenging work um when it finally was done I could only use we not I was like we have a book like like like now we're going to get published one of the reasons And you you tell me. I'd love to hear more about your marriage. I I feel like I no longer conceive of my journey in life as being like me trying to do things. I mean, I really do think of like, you know, I have to write an op-ed with Jason as like Yeah. I mean, at at like, you know, he's not a psychologist. He's a real estate developer, by the way. Um, residential real estate. >> But he's your psychologist because he's married to you in a sense. Like, he understands you. >> Yeah. psychologically, emotionally, >> he understands me. He um, you know, he's my intellectual sparring partner. I think that the the the idea that like I am just myself and then like occasionally I get feedback doesn't do justice to like how important he is. And again, like going back to like you and your situation, I will go all eastern on you because I'm of Chinese descent. So like I have a little bit of the right. Sure. >> Born in Philadelphia, but my parents came uh from China. And they they my dad in particular would um talk about how different it was to come from the east and the west. And so I will um tell you what I think my father um was saying to me when he said like when you are in the west it's like you're an individual and you know you have a resume and a career and yes you have relationships with a you know romantic partner with friends with society >> but it's your dream >> but it's your dream you know like you're the silhouette you're the he was like in the east speaking personally he was like that's not how we think of it like you're part of a whole um you're part of a society you know your relationship ships are not like separate from you. So, um, so yeah, like yeah, my husband, the real estate developer, I think in this just in the most profound way, I'm I'm struggling to find the words for it. Um, is so much part of of anything that I could call success. And by the way, not just this book, like the last one. So I >> that's what I mean, your whole career, like your success as a professor and all the awards you've achieved and the books and the sales, like everything >> like everything. Would you be where you are without having the right marriage partner? >> I would not be where I am if I didn't have this this marriage. >> But you had the talent, you had the smarts, the skills, the other relation, the network. You you know, would you like why wouldn't you be where you are without the right intimate partner? >> Um I'm going to answer it and I also just want to add I know a very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist who off the record said I mean he came to me and he was like I always look for grit and I said great so do I. I asked him, "What else do you look for?" He said, "Do you want to really know?" I was like, I was like, he's like, "Off the record, I look for somebody who's in a a very stable, strong, >> you call it a romantic relationship, right? Like marriage would be the most common form of such a relationship." And I was like, "Oh, that is so interesting." So, let me just say that I'm not alone in like believing that, you know, the two of you are like a unit, you know, like it's it's not even possible to really conceive a I mean, >> I will answer you, but I love to hear what like what you would say the same question. Um, I, you know, do feel like at some point during the day when we like part ways, we have breakfast and then like I go off to work as a psychologist, you know, and I'm on conference calls, he's not on, and I like sit and stare at a blank page and he's not standing next to me. I mean, obviously, I'm also independent. I don't any I don't I don't think any of this like diminishes like, oh, you know, I don't feel like I take credit. Um but um but everything I do I think of us like trying to embark on this challenge like I didn't know how to open this book honestly. Um, I was like, how do I explain to people the power of the situation? Cuz the situation is so abstract. It's like, how do I explain to them that it's everything and everyone around me >> environment, it's your room, it's your the mentors around you, the school >> and maybe I could have you, right? But you weren't around and I'm not married to you, right? So, I'm like sitting there struggling and um and Jason said, "Why don't you write about our marriage?" >> And I was like, "Okay." Um, >> he just wanted you to brag about him. I know those >> he did ask actually just the other day he's like have you been telling people that like >> how amazing I am to say [laughter] in so many words I was like oh I was like I don't know that I'm mentioning that enough um but it was such a generous act and the reason is that he didn't want me or wasn't suggesting that I write about like all the good parts. He was suggesting that I write about a crisis that we had in our marriage. I was like the most courageous act something that we hadn't publicly talked about at all. >> What happened? Um and um yeah, so I I'll tell you the story and again I think like it's just so indicative of like how we are doing this like in the deepest way together. So I met Jason Duckworth. I was in my 20s. I you know had this dating philosophy. It was like we're not getting married next. Not getting um but when I met him I was like let's do it like let's go. like first couple days or first couple weeks, you're like, "Hey, >> couple hours." I had a dream the first night. Um, and I wrote it down in my journal so I have like written evidence that this is true. I'm not making this up. I had the dream that we were getting married. I was walking down the aisle and I couldn't see the groom and he turned around and it was this guy I just met named Jason. Um, and so I I told him about it the second time I saw him and I think he thought it was >> crazy. >> Crazy. Yeah. I guess that's a 20 25 I7 26 I think I think I just turned 26. Um I just turned 26. I was like 26 and 2 days. And so we had a headover heels romance. Like there was some ups and downs but like oh my god I was in love. Um so that's not what I wrote about. I didn't write about like oh and then chapter whatever. Like it ended up being chapter 5 not chapter 1. But um he wanted me to write about my marriage crisis. He thought it would be a great way to like explain the power of the situation. I will tell you what happened. Um, everything was going great. You know, he's like you and he's like me. Like, like try to outwork us, right? It's like, you know, like, right? Like, let's go. It's like, you know, maybe I don't have the highest IQ score in the room, like, you know, but like >> watch me work, right? Like, so that is Jason Duckworth. Um, and that is Angela Duckworth. And I, you know, and you you shared with me that that's your personal story. So, when we saw each other, it was like looking in the mirror. It was like, oh my god, let's go. and and it was working like trying harder was our life philosophy and it worked until it didn't >> until exhausted and burned out and overwhelmed. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, let's see. So, and maybe there's a scenario where it could have worked forever, but I don't think that happens for most people. So, we get married and he's starting his real estate career and you know more about business than I do despite my being a business school professor. So, you'll know that um >> you know I'm I'm a professor. I'm on tenure track. Um uh he's a real estate developer, 2008 financial crisis. Um I I know so little about like finance and economics that like I still like I I gave him the copy for this chapter and he was like I think you got the >> sweetie I think you got the date wrong for the financial crisis that like you know sent the United States and the rest of the world into like a global recession. It was like the worst housing market in you know recent American history. So here he is like starting out as a very ambitious I'll outwork you uh real estate developer um in the worst time in history to be a real estate developer. What happened to our marriage in this time is and this like I'm glad I mentioned to you that I'm of Chinese heritage because it is relevant. So he's working harder and harder because the philosophy of somebody who's like I will try harder and that is my superpower. I will work my way out of every problem has an incredible vulnerability which is like you go from 60hour work weeks >> to 80 to Yeah. Yeah. to 100 >> 100 right and I counted so right I know people are like oh you know if you really add it up I'm like oh yeah trust me I added him up so he's working like crazy and um and honestly like becoming incredibly unhappy like miserable would not be the right no miserable would exactly the right adjective for it. I'm, you know, trying to be what my mother who was raised in China like raised me to be, which is the perfect wife. Like >> that's impossible. >> I know. Well, I had a lot of therapy since this all happened and I also but at the time, right, like you know, 20some Angela um head over heels in love uh and raised to be like a perfect wife. So, I'm working harder. So, I'm trying to get tenure, but also we had these two girls and like, you know, I need to serve them organic fruit and like keep up my Pilates routine, but also I've got this husband. And when you are raised as I was raised, like Louis, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders at college graduation, and she with a tear in her eye said, "I'm so proud of you. You're ready to be a wife." Um, and so for me, my husband's unhappiness was my failure. >> Um, so then I just worked harder. I was like, I'll dust bus, you know, at 5 in the morning. I'll So, I will make everything right and my husband will be happy. But then, so we were both just digging ourselves into into like I guess kind of a foxhole cuz that's what it felt like. We were just like, you know, we're just like soldiers in a foxhole trying to make things work and all the happiness. I mean, the joy like I was so in love with Jason Duckworth when we met that I couldn't even remember that at this point. And so the crisis that I write about is how each of us had spent our lives being gritty tryh harder people and we had to reckon with the reality that trying harder in a losing situation doesn't make you into a winner. It didn't work for us and we had to change the situation in fundamental ways to to rescue our marriage and to rescue our careers. um I mean to rescue ourselves. Um and so yeah, I I belatedly in a way like came to understand that working harder in a losing situation is just a recipe for you know exhaustion, burnout, and and misery. >> Wow. Now, there's a couple things I relate to there. One, you know, I was I told you before that I was in multiple long-term relationships, not married, but just in long-term dating relationships, committed relationships. And there'd be seasons where I know like, oh, this was not we're not supposed to continue. But for whatever in me, the athlete or the person that says, don't give up, >> don't want to quit. >> I was like, I'm going to figure this out. We'll do whatever it takes. I'll do more. I'll change. We'll go to therapy. Whatever it was. And I repeated that in like four or five different relationships. >> Yeah. >> And not most people, but I would say some people after 5 10 years of a marriage to they get to that point, they would say, you know what, we've lost the love. We've lost this. Like we've we've burned ourselves to the ground. >> We tried everything. let's break up, let's divorce, let's break up, even if we have kids. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong for people to to make their decisions, but why did you feel like that? Ending the relationship and removing yourself from what was the situation >> was not the right thing to do at that time for you. >> So, there's some subtlety here, right? Cuz it's like, okay, so what I hear you saying is that like this had become an unsustainable situation, Angela. Like, why isn't breaking up like the right thing? And like you, I'm like, why far it be for me to pass judgment on anyone's marriage or life because >> I don't know anything about it, but I can speak personally and there is some nuance here because divorce was a way to change the situation, right? And I thought like I would be a happy, >> you know, single mom and then, you know, he happier, right? Like >> you thought about this. You thought about like what would that look like if we were >> I took him out for a walk and I was like and out of the blue I was, you know, like all in one moment. I was like, "Okay, I know you think everything is perfect. >> I've been crying my eyes out every night, and I don't want to be in this marriage anymore." So, it was not uh >> How did he say that? >> Not a great night. >> You know, I wrote about this, but I won't don't know that I did it justice. Like, >> uh I don't think there's anything more devast he's a like a child of divorce. Like, >> I really don't think there is anything I could have said that was >> more wounding than that. Um I think it was terrifying. I mean, I think it was like every negative adjective you can think of. It was terrifying. It was like crushing. Uh, it was devastating. And And I won't lie, part of the reason why we're still married is grit. Cuz he was a little bit like, "Oh, no. I'm not done." Like, you know, like, "What do you need from me?" Like, like, yeah, like I you know, we'll do it. Um so there was a little bit of grip but I will tell you um I'll tell you you know what happened and why it is that like getting situated I guess you know there were other ways to do it but I'm glad that we went the path we did. So there were calibrations to our situation as opposed to like a radical like change and you know like just splitting up. So um I was also raised not to have therapy. Like I was raised I remember my father and my mother were you know I have siblings and there was a moment in time in my childhood >> no one talked about emotions or feelings or >> like like verboten and there was a moment in time where like I think the school somebody reached out and was like your family needs to go to therapy and by that I mean the family and so I remember this one episode you know it's like a sepia colored photograph it's a little fuzzy but I remember being on this couch with my family and when you were a kid >> with a my Yeah. And my parents were there and my dad like stormed out um and said like uh you know very uh like unre repeatable things about like the therapist. So like I did not I did not grow up thinking like therapy is great like therapy should be part of your situation. So at this marriage crisis um uh Jason you know said whatever pleaded said um like therapy like you need therapy I need therapy and we need therapy. >> And how did you respond? >> Um I I was like incredibly resistant to the idea you know like also like when you >> when you feel like you've already gotten to the place where you're like oh by the way I've thought through this like I've thrown it all out and like there's no there's no solution here. >> There's no coming back. But maybe there was enough of a Chinese wife in me that was like, "Oh, but my husband wants me to go to therapy." So, I still like we went um and that was a profound change in my situation. I think like you trying to figure out your problems alone is a different situation than you trying to figure it out with somebody whose whole job is to like help people like you and who has seen has like pattern recognition. So, I you know found this therapist. Her name is D. She's still my therapist. Jason found a therapist. We went through another therap. >> So, you did it individually and then together. We did like we had the biggest therapy bills like in uh well maybe not in history but there were three therapists for two of us in one marriage and that wasn't a great ratio for me and we were you know just it was a huge amount of our annual income time energy you know these like two little girls who were raising like you know grandparents like taking shifts so that we could each go to therapy that we could both go to therapy. I think that that was only one change. But like you in a marriage trying to figure things out on your own by just trying harder is like a whole different world from like you together like vulnerable enough to be like I guess it's time for therapy. Like I can't figure this out on my own. I can't talk about it with you except for if there's this third person in the room. Like it did it wasn't and it wasn't the only thing we did but it was like part of the turning point, right? Um, you know, asking for help, I think, is a big part of getting situated. >> It is. Do you feel like you'd still be married and as successful as you are in your career if you didn't go through therapy with him at that season? >> I know that I wouldn't be as successful as I am because you know what I've also found in my research, Louis, people aren't gritty when they're not happy. >> So, if you want to be gritty and successful, you have to be happy. And >> but maybe getting a divorce and getting out of the situation. Maybe you would have felt a sense of freedom. You know, it's like ah maybe I don't have any. I'll have to go to therapy for a year and deal with stress and bills and like h changing myself like maybe it just been I can be who I want and find someone else. >> I nearly memorized the road not taken by Robert Frost, you know, like you know, two roads diverged in yellow wood and there I the weary traveler stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth. Right? I haven't memorized the whole thing. That's the first stanza and you get to the end it's like you know basically the reason why that poem gets repeated all the time is like who hasn't thought about like but what if I hadn't stayed with you or like what if I had gone like or what if I had stayed in Ireland or whatever it is you know you just have these like thought what if I had stayed in football like you have these other roads and they're not taken I don't know what the other roads are taken them I I'm trying not to swear but I love this road and I so so love my husband like I I don't know but I will say this the thoughts that I had in my head like this is ruined like it's no longer a fairy tale like I can't make you happy therefore I'm a failure as a wife like um we are not meant to be those thoughts are not true and it was only by changing my situation that I could change my thoughts to well you are miserable and I am miserable facts um it doesn't have to be that way it also doesn't mean that you're a congenally miserable person or that I am congenally unable able to be a good wife. Like there were so many assumptions that I had in my head that hadn't I changed my situation um that that it wouldn't have changed my thoughts, right? And I think one of the one of the things I would really do like we've had a conversation before this where I said I'm slightly uncomfortable like you know being on book tour like you know I don't but there is something I feel incredibly passionate about in psychology and that is my job right. I am not a real estate developer. I'm a psychologist. Like in psychology, there is this very simple way of understanding human behavior that I learned about halfway through my career and I think is important to deliver to the world. And it gets back to like, well, how does this all fit together? There's just three boxes if you want to draw them on a piece of paper. And the third box is like how you respond, how you feel, are you miserable, are you happy, are you confident, are you working 10 hours that day or two hours that day, what did you eat, what did you drink? Any behavior you can think of, any feeling you can think of is in box three. >> And that's how you respond to what happened. >> That's how you're responding, right? Response. And people can be different, right? You're like, "Oh, you know, Ryan, you know, John, like Sally, like they stayed later and you know, Sue didn't like." Okay, that's the response, right? Then what happens in box two? What box two are your thoughts? So one of the reasons why many therapists today will identify themselves as cognitive therapists like cognitive therapists or thinking therapists >> your thoughts like what are the thoughts that are making you underconfident like you're feeling like an imposttor let's think about the thoughts that go through your head together like let's try to you know you don't think this marriage is going to work you feel whatever you feel like it's the thought so cognitive therapy like you go and the therapist helps you interrogate and challenge maybe maladaptive and inaccurate thoughts. Right? So I think that's a lot of that's a lot of growth. You talk about greatness like I think a lot of that is becoming aware of your self-t talk and your thoughts. But I want to say um and I'm not saying that therapists are not saying this too. But I want to say that there's another box. It's like what okay that's box two and box three. You know what box one is? Box one is your situation. Like who are you with? Like are you with a therapist or you not with a therapist? I mean I also came clean to my friends who I had not really been sharing this with on the whole. Um I there were also professional changes we make. We changed box one. We changed our situation. When you change your situation, you automatically change your thoughts. >> When you change your thoughts, you automatically change your behavior. So I feel unapologetic and unequivocal that like people should understand that everything you do comes from what you think and everything you think is influenced by your situation. >> How many days does it take to go from total beginner to reasonably proficient at a new skill? >> Well, if you practice for a focused hour a day, then about 250, which also happens to be the number of reasons to choose T-Mobile. Here's an excellent reason. They have the fastest 5G home internet according to UCLA speed test, which you can test for yourself worry-f free with their 15-day money back guarantee. Another great reason, it's fast and easy to set up, too. Plug it in and you're online in practically no time with no appointment or technician needed. Those are just a few reasons. Find yours at t-mobile.com/home internet where you can check availability and try it for yourself. They're so sure you'll love it. You get your money back if you don't. Fastest according to UCLA speed test intelligence data second half of 2025. All rights reserved. Redeem money back guarantee within 30 days of cancellation. >> You know this guy, this younger guy who came uh yesterday to be >> the one who asked you for advice. I love this question by the way. I already love this guy. I've never met him. >> Nice guy. I I was telling him like, listen, you know, everything I went through, all the challenges, they've all taught me who I am today and this and that, you know, and I'm grateful for all the experiences, but I know that my energy was drained so many times and for so long in certain relationships, and I don't blame anyone else. I take full responsibility. Um, and I wish I would have learned that skill on how to navigate those situations better sooner because now being married for, you know, and with Martha for the last 5 years, >> it has brought me so much greater energy in my life, more joy that has allowed me to expand my energy in positive ways. I feel like better, right? It's given me more and more energy, given me more confidence, all these things, and less stress. Yeah. Yeah. And >> I think whenever I'm stressed, I make worse decisions in life and I and I make, you know, and I don't respond like you said in the third box as well to situations. >> You're not your best self. >> Not your best self. You I'm like a six out of a 10 every day or like a four out of 10. >> Are you like a different Louiswis because like it's Louis and Martha. >> 100%. Yeah. 100%. And this is the interesting thing you mentioned therapy because when I met Martha, I was so clear that I was not going to allow chemical emotions to cloud my thinking to just act, oh, we're in love and this is amazing and it feels good and let's just not ask the deep questions and this it feels good being around each other. So early on when we were dating um in the first couple months I was like listen we're having an amazing time and it seems like it feels so many things are lining up. We're like this is amazing right but I said for whatever reason I'm not willing to get into a committed relationship unless we start in therapy >> really. >> Yes. And >> at the beginning of your relationship >> the beginning of the relationship because every other relationship ended in therapy and it never works out. [laughter] you're like, wait, we have the tail and then I was like, I don't want to go over the next year of everything's going to be great and then we move in in a year and a year and a half or whatever it is and then we start finding out things about each other that don't work. We're trying to go back to that feeling you had with Jason, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> In the beginning, you try to remember that fantasy at the beginning >> and you can't find it cuz you're stressed out, you're overwhelmed, you hate each other, whatever it is. >> And I was like, I don't want to get to that point. I want to know that we have shared values, shared vision, and shared lifestyle in the beginning. And we're really honest with each other, >> right? >> And maybe quickly we find out it doesn't work out, >> but at least >> which is great, right? >> I'd rather do that in 3 to 6 months than 3 to 6 years. >> God, I've never heard of this before. This is awesome. >> It was the best thing that we have ever done because right away she said, "Absolutely, let's do it." Which I thought she >> also a good sign. >> Great sign. >> Such a good sign. Yeah. >> And and we were able to just navigate little misunderstandings, little potential disagreements that could have blown up into something bigger so quickly. >> And it wasn't always comfortable. And there were some moments that were vulnerable and was like, "Oh, this doesn't feel good." But we were able to work through it with a a mentor, a third party. That's all they do. >> Yeah. >> Instead of us figuring out when we're emotional, >> it was the greatest gift we gave ourselves and our relationship >> to this um >> probably about a year. Wow. >> And the first year and it it was just like we appreciated each other. >> Genius. >> I know we're in this together and we've done this work early >> and we're willing to keep figuring things out together >> when we need to. >> And it's been the most beautiful 5-year experience with someone ever. >> Yeah. >> And again, we've faced challenges. We have, you know, adversity we're going through, different stuff like we just had twin girls 10 months ago, >> challenges at hospital. All these different things are happening. >> Yeah. But the fact that we created a almost a framework of connection, of vulnerability, of we're in this together in the beginning has created a better relationship. Now, again, it doesn't guarantee we're going to have this perfect relationship forever. I'm just saying it's created a much more peace within us. And I just think it's a valuable thing to explore. So, I have never met anybody who was like, "Oh." And then when we first started dating, I was like, >> but I went through so much pain, Angela, for 20 years of multiple relationships that were just heart-wrenching for me that didn't work out that I was like, my ability to have grit and pursue and create was diminished because of one situation talk about in your book, >> right? >> And the people that we surround oursel with, the mentors, the friends, the coaches, the teachers. Yeah, >> those are the environments my in my mind that are more important than making sure your space is clean and you're in the right city and things like that. Yes, those are yes those are >> also elements. Yes, those environments are crucial, >> but if you are in an emotionally trapped environment with a coach, a mentor, a a friend who's holding you hostage, who's gaslighting you, that you're pouring into, and you feel like >> it is exhausting and it will suck the life out of you. >> So, I feel like the people situations that you're in, >> those are the most important, >> are the most emotionally important and everything else as well. like stack everything you can like you talk about in your book but it's the people that hold you back and so many people I've interviewed they're like make sure you choose the person you marry wisely >> really has that come up as a >> yeah because it impacts >> it's not just venture capitalist >> and I asked my I asked my therapist this who works with a lot of like very financially successful kind of older men right who are maybe in their like 50s 60s and 70s right >> and she has a lot of like high-profile clients and things like that and I'm asking her you know after like a year and a half for a couple years of doing this and I was doing individual therapy and then her as with couples's therapy as well when I did this session one point she was like so what do you want to talk about I was like man I just feel so good like and it was just happening every time I was like I don't really have anything to talk about >> but I go >> how about this let's go into the future future Lewis >> say you know everything works out for me everything I want >> and you know I accomplish everything and all my dreams come true and I'm healthy I'm happy all these things what's going to be my biggest challenge ment in 10 20 years based on the pattern recognition you see with all your clients. >> You asked her this question. You asked your therapist this question. >> I said what are what are your clients coming to you and what is their biggest challenge? And you say all these men who are very successful that come to her >> they have fallen out of grace. They have allowed the temptations of the world to take them out of essentially their situation, their marriage. They've cheated with someone. They've they've they've strayed from the family. They've allowed their power, their money, their success, their ego to get to them, whatever, >> and they made mistakes that ruin their their life. So, they ruin their situation that's a good thing for something else, maybe more tempting. And then they spend years trying to regain respect from their kids or their they try to eventually try to get back with the wife or whatever it might be, and it's too late. And so, she was like, "Just be thinking of that because you're going to continue to grow. You're going to continue to succeed, >> right? and you're going to be more successful and the temptations are going to be greater. >> Exactly. So, make sure you continue to have a bond where you're staying connected, you're staying present, and you're working on things together, >> right? >> And I think that is the thing where most people fail is like they they get too successful and then they forget I guess they forget about who they are, you know? So, >> so look, you know, you could be like what's more important like the people, places or things? I'm like, and you want to argue people, right? your relationships like first and foremost like is right cuz they're dragging you down or they're bringing you up. They're like helping you remember who you are or they're distracting you from like your So >> I think I'll agree with you on that. Like I hadn't thought about like a rank ordering but like if there's one >> and imagine if your husband was not supportive of your career was just kind of put doubt inside of you. Like >> we worked in the same company. This is how we met. So, we were both in graduate school, but we were about to go to Mckenzie Consulting, and he's a very proactive like like you know, Boy Scout class president type. And so, he's like, I'm going to organize a dinner for all the people who are going to go work at Mackenzie Consulting in New York City. Um, I'm a little less like Yeah. Great. And, you know, that's why you need people to like organize your high school reunion. Like, he he he's your guy. Um, so he organizes this dinner and I meet him. Yeah. Fall in love. But uh the point is that we both went to Mackenzie and so we were you know like in the same track and um and I wasn't more successful than him. But I will say that >> smarter than him, [laughter] >> better looking, more charming. Um uh I wore shorter skirts. I will say that I got that feedback in a performance review. They're like, "Yeah, you know, >> he liked that, but not >> apparently not my engagement manager." But um uh so so here's the thing. Being a successful person, I think, is hard. um being a successful woman in a marriage I think can be hard for the husband. Um he frequently reminds me that he is the son of a like his parents divorced and so he was raised by both his father and his mother but like not at the same time and his mother Sharon is incredibly strong woman very ambitious. um she became a school superintendent and he frequently reminds me that like I I should be more articulate about this loose but maybe is it because it's emotional or is because it's hard to describe the support that this man gives me like like it's not that he tolerates my success it's not that he is capable of like managing his own ego um and by the way he is successful too but I think he would point to my success like it is true love right when it's like I assume that like the greater that Lewis is like the more fulfilled Martha >> herself is like it it it is that way on my you know on my side of this marriage like I feel like >> you know like like he might enjoy my success more than I do. Um I I I think >> speak good words into you on a consistent basis around your project that you're working on. I think he is uh a a lot more um like he has ballast you know I mean I get like very excited about things like uh and he has a steadiness there's like a you know there's like a solidity to Jason Duckworth um I think he also is like ethically and morally like I don't know a lot of people I don't know a lot of people who did what you did at the very beginning of relationship but I also can say I don't know a lot of people like like Jason is actively trying to be a better person like he actively prays to be a better person like he asked the question like is this the most ethical way you know like we're now in our 50s like is this the ethical way to be like using our money using our time so I have this person in my life who has like unconditional um >> uh it's not like in any marriage like you know you're happy with the other person but like this unconditional commitment um and uh unconditional support but then also he's this like you paragon of like integrity like I am not an immoral person but I don't think on like you know like I don't wake up in the morning and pray like oh I wonder if I could be a better person today. I mean I try to be nice but I think he's another level and yeah think about the okay so like let's assume that Robert Frost is right and our life is a road and we and you know sometimes we come to like a fork in the road and we could be with this person or that person. We could go to therapy or not go to therapy. We could stay in our job or not stay in our job. We could move or not move. We'll never know the roads not taken. There's not only one road not taken. There are uncountable roads not taken. I don't know what the roads are like with a different husband. I don't know what um what Angela Duckworth with another relationship would be. But this road that I'm on, I just look back at the road and I'm like, I could not have come this far. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't even um you know I shared with you this um you know my mom by the way I think would be okay with you know my relaying this anecdote because now she's 91 and I think she looks back and she was like what was I talking about when you were at college graduation like >> grabbing your shoulder >> probably not the thing to say like you know I'm glad you're have you know you could be a wife but I know this road that I've been on and I know that there's no way I would get this far and one reason I know is that being raised in that, you know, be a good wife. Be a good wife, you know, like make him happy. Like literally, I was told at the beginning of my marriage, like my mom, again, >> not the 91year-old I have now, but back then, she was like, "When he comes home, play some soft music and like as if he were a lion or something." It's like, "Play some soft music and like, you know, rub his feet and like, you know, always have the food ready." And so, I don't think the ambitious Angela that I am today who's like, "I'm going to I'm going to just go like, I'm going to be as great a psychologist as I can be. I want to like I want to do everything I can. I don't think I would have given myself that permission if I hadn't gotten his support. So like I don't know what the other roads are, but I'm so far down this road and this road has taken me to places that I would never have dreamed of even like allowing myself to want to go. >> Wow. >> Right. because yeah like and we're so happily married and you know this ring so this is the ring I you know I got engaged with this ring right and then we got married we got this ring and I have a third ring and after our marriage crisis uh where a little bit of grit and a lot better situation like you know here we are >> and therapy >> so much therapy right well I was part of the better situation right so like >> you reimagined the new situation >> exactly and like many situational improvements like it leads to an even better situ because like now you're you know now you're making better decisions across the board. This third ring is like you know the ring to celebrate our second marriage like the sort of you know like we are not just going to try harder individually or even together to like we will when we're stuck. I mean, here's a way to know like you asked me at the very beginning like do we know like on schedule and I said I think we often know too late but here's a way to know if you are trying and then you're trying harder and then you're trying harder still and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage in your career in your friendships in your health in anything you're like more effort is not producing more results I think that is the time you should stop ask yourself is Is it the situation like do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation and then you know of course like then then keep trying. I mean I'll never stop believing and try harder but that I think is the signal and I think I missed that signal. I was just like oh just like keep going. >> I mean that's the problem with a superpower, right? Like it like it's a kryptonite you don't realize. Let's hypothetically go back and say, you know, you you stayed in the relationship and it wasn't maybe it got a little bit better, but it wasn't really transforming after therapy and you guys just cut we're just going to stick this out for the kids or whatever. Like we're just going to stay >> asking me to like think through this counter go back go back >> go back in time, but also imagine that like Yeah. >> And let's just say the marriage got maybe a little bit better, but it's kind of just like running its course and you're just staying together. And let's say he wasn't encouraging. Maybe he wasn't negative, but he wasn't like positively encouraging you and supporting you in projects and books and speeches and, you know, championing you as a partner. Do you think him being neutral or even him putting doubt inside of you with negative words or negative thoughts, would that have hurt your your experience in life and and hurt you from accomplishing what you've accomplished? Do you think you would have been able to overcome that with that type of situation? like you like literally just described my mother's marriage to my father, right? So >> I know what that looks like because that was her. So, you know, my parents also fell head over heels in love. They were actually fabulously good-looking. Like I I watched these like old movies of them and I was like, "Holy my mother was like a female uh you know, like like a like she was a goddess. I mean, she looked like a Chinese Sophia Lauren. Um, and my dad actually, to my shock and awe, was like actually pretty good-looking, too. Um, and you know, he had a big white convertible. I mean, they had this like very um head over heels heels romance, much like Jason and I. Um, but you just described really, I think, what um what their marriage was like. So, my mother immigrated to this country like knowing no one, first in her family. She spoke hardly any English. She she wanted to be an artist and she thought she could do it, you know, make her dream come true in America, right? The land of >> change her situation, move countries, >> change her situation, which I think is good. Step one, yeah, she has situational agency. My mother is a paragon of situational agency. Um, but her but her situation wasn't perfect. So, she moved from, you know, Taiwan to the United States. That was a better situation because like as a woman, you can go to art school in the United States. It's like she went to great art schools here, >> but there was challenges cuz she didn't know the language and other challenges >> and she overcame them because she's also gritty. Okay. So, um Okay. But in marrying my dad who went by YK cuz he's is like a very unpronouncable tonal Chinese name. Let's call him Yk because that's what everyone did. >> In marrying Y, Teresa married into a very traditional marriage. Like a very traditional Chinese marriage because though they were in the United States, they were both raised in China in the 1930s. Wow. >> So, not only was she raised to be a good wife, he was raised to to marry a good wife. And he he married her because she was beautiful, but not because she was smart and creative and awesome. Well, awesome maybe, but mostly because she was beautiful and kind, but not cuz she was like a great artist and like ambitious and and smart. Cuz like my mom was every bit as, you know, is as every bit as smart as my dad was. My dad's now passed. So, when you describe this marriage, like Angela, go back in time. Imagine, imagine greatness and the ceiling that you know how high would it be if you had a different supporter at home if you had somebody who was giving you like you know doubt and so forth and was like actually resentful. I was like I don't have to imagine it Louis because that is the marriage my mother had. So, what happened to this? Like, and my mom, by the way, was maybe more talented than you and I were. Like, she was a prodigy. Like, I saw the paintings. She still has them that she made when she was a teenager. And I really think she had a gift. Wow. >> So, she had a gift and she had grit and she was in America. Like, what's, you know, what's wrong? >> What's wrong? Well, the trifecta, but I guess there are four things cuz like she didn't have she didn't have the marriage. Right. >> So, so my dad was not mean and not a bad person, >> kind of dismissive or kind of just like >> not supportive, right? Like that like um >> don't do that stuff. You should be doing this. >> Well, like you know what? Like let's start a wholesale needle point company. Um because it will make money and do you do you know what needle point is? >> Needle point meaning what is that? >> Okay. It's a handiccraft. >> I thought it was like sewing like >> it's a version of sewing. Okay. >> You get this canvas. >> It's like >> it's like an artwork needle point. Is that what you mean? >> Yeah. Like the canvas is usually like painted with like I don't know like a unicorn or like your dog or something, right? Or it could have like a saying like you know like home is where the heart is and like it's painted. So you get this white canvas and it's painted and needle point is this >> string in there like a >> Yeah. So this is like you know by the way this is partly why they're like business idea didn't take off but anyway like nobody does needle point. So like you you like if it's green you stitch green and if it's yellow you stitch yellow. So my dad's idea like was not necessarily a bad it's like not evil but when you're married to somebody your job is not to make them happy but your job is to help them realize their dreams and my dad did not do that. So he wanted my mom to run this business. She wanted he like they became small business owners. I mean he had a career. He was a chemist but he gave her this assignment which is like >> side hustle. >> Yeah. Full-time side hustle. So she ran this business, this like needle point business where she was like painting dogs on canvas and like you know you know like whatever you know home is where the heart is like whatever it is like unicorns and then you know getting other people to paint them and then selling them to stores and not doing what she came to this country to do which is to be a painter herself like a real painter and that was their whole marriage until he died and then he did die and that is when my mom started painting again. >> Come on. >> No. Yeah. Like, >> so how many years were they together until he died? >> Over 50. Gosh, I I must not have like a mind for numbers. I'm like, how many? Definitely. >> 50 years. So, for 50 years, >> 50 plus >> 50 plus years. >> I've been married 25 plus. >> She she did all the hard work to get to this country to like start pursuing it. But then not in a negative way or bad way. She was trying to be a great wife and she was trying to show up for what your father wanted. I guess >> in that situation if you want to contend that the most important part of getting situated is like being with the right partner. >> Yes. >> Uh he was many things but supportive about art. He was not curious like >> I grew up in that house. We never went to the art museum. Like there is a beautiful art museum in Philadelphia. It looks like it should be in Greece. It's like you know uh one of the greatest art museums in the world. We never went to the art museum. like uh you know my mom you know like had one painting that I used to like it had like cherry blossoms and there was another painting that had boats. Those are only two paintings in my house. Now that we've talked about this and you know life is long and you learn a lot and now my 91year-old mother looks back and says like I should have said something. I should have done something. I asked her why there weren't more paintings like when we were growing up and she was like well you know I was taking care of your father. He was like my fourth child. And she said, "You know, sometimes I would paint something like cuz I would find like a stolen hour on the side, you know, between lunch and dinner and uh and I would put it up on the wall >> and nobody would say anything. And especially your father, like he would walk by a new painting for months and not say anything because he didn't notice. Like he didn't notice. So like >> I don't know Martha, but I already love like like that's changed your life, you know? I I think that's Jason's changed my life. And I think, you know, obviously there are a lot of people who are like, "Sounds great. How do I get one?" Um, but even knowing that like who you are in a certain relationship is like a different you. Like I'm not the same Angela. So it's not only a poem about like the road not taken like okay, I'm on this road. It's not only like I mean like this traveler is not the same traveler because I did take that road like right and it's changed me. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. Ever think, "What if you could go after what you actually want and really make a difference?" You're not alone. For over 50 years, Walden University has helped working adults turn ambition into action. Walden is where students get the W, those big and small wins that move them forward and create the change they want to see in their lives, their careers, and in their communities. With more than 100 online degrees and certificates in fields like nursing, social work, counseling, and psychology, it's never been easier to find a program that matches your goals. And Walden is a partner from your very first class all the way to your career with the tools, the support, and dedicated career coaching you need to win. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu.edu edu and take that first step. Walden University set a course for change certified to operate by Chev. You've had an encouraging, supportive partner throughout this whole time. And >> yeah, not a perfect person, but like uh >> Yeah, but he has been encouraging. He hasn't put doubt in your mind. Maybe once in a while, but it sounds like consistently he puts he reinforces positive encouragement. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> In your mind with supportive energy and cheering you on instead of doubting you or neglecting you, right? >> And and research shows, right? And this is not like Angela and her marriage and so forth. Um, but Angela, the professor and psychologist who can tell you what. So, one of the really surprising things about confidence and I think you know what, thousands of podcast episodes, right? Like the theme of confidence, of belief, like I believed I could do it, right? Believing you can do something always precedes doing it. You don't do things you don't believe you can do. Human beings cannot go against the grain of their own confidence. >> Your partner is telling you you can't do this. >> Exactly. Okay. So, so exhausting. >> So, I don't know. In the marriage context, I'm sure this is true, but uh but in other contexts, it's like been shown in research. So much of your belief comes from other people's belief. It's just borrowed. >> Just saying, "Hey, I believe you can do it." >> Yeah. and then like acting that way and so forth. So like how important is it to have a partner who believes in you, a coach who believes in you, a boss who believes in you, a best friend who believes in you. It's the nature of human nature that our self-confidence comes from other people. So there's there's this experiment that's called the pyon effect. It's actually appropriately since we um ended up talking about love and marriage and Martha and Jason. So, it's not a true story and it's not a research study, but the Pyon myth from Greek mythology is that there is a sculptor whose name is Pyon and he carves a statue out of ivory that is so beautiful that he falls in love with it. Um, and he so believes that um this statue is real that the goddess of love, Aphrodite, like sort of looks down on this mortal and takes some pity on him and and basically brings the statue to life. And the reason why this research study is called the Pyelian effect is because the idea is that if you truly believe in somebody else like it will transform them. It will bring them to life. So the study is that there are these little kids at an elementary school in California and they're just going through elementary school and before the beginning of the school year this Harvard psychologist um named Bob Rosenthal who came to this hypothesis that belief is borrowed that self-confidence comes from other people that you need to be in these relationships because who has the belief that they can do something until someone else says they can do it and acts like they can do it. So he randomly assigns these kids to either be labeled as gifted or not, right? And for the gifted group, he goes and he tells their teachers, he's like, "Oh, by the way, here's the list of kids before the school year starts. Uh, I gave them the like Harvard test of inflected reasoning." I mean, he made this up. He made up the test. He made up the title, but it sounded very fancy. And he was a Harvard professor. And he said, "And these are your um these are your bloomers." And um it might not be obvious on day one of school and it may not be obvious on day 10 but like before the end of the school year you will see that they they bloom because they are gifted. So he gave the teachers the belief in the kids right experimentally we just waited to see what happened and sure enough it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The teachers believed that these kids would be great. That gave the kids the confidence that they were great and even on IQ tests, especially the youngest kids, like they literally did better. Wow. >> By a lot by the end of the year. And so the Pyelian effect is the is the reality that our belief Angela Duckworth's belief in Angela Duckworth >> is not just because of Angela Duckworth. It's because of Jason Duckworth and you know like another like set of people but but it's just evidence that your relationships matter to not only like what your opportunities are but like how you think about yourself as a person. >> Yes. And that's why I think your book is so powerful situated because it's about finding the people and places that bring out your best. And you said people first in the title. >> I guess I could have said places and it was Yeah. It takes primacy, right? It's >> beautiful because and you talk about mentorship and relationships, >> the relationships we choose to create. Now, obviously when you're a kid, you can't choose your parents and siblings, but >> yeah, >> at some point hopefully your parents can choose your friends for you early on and start putting you in those relationships and putting you in the right school environment, whatever it might be to set you up for that success. But when we're adults, if we have the opportunity to choose people specifically that pour into you positive re-encouragement, positive self-belief, it is going to give you such a greater advantage than being in, you know, the perfect school and perfect place without those people giving that to you. >> Like you like the people part. I I I couldn't agree more. And Liz, it's it's really like not like, oh, you'll be 5% more productive like um you'll be 7% more efficient like if like it is. >> Mhm. >> I think to me the transformative element is that you don't know who you could become. Like >> that's the thing, >> right? Like >> and your mom like who could she have become? Not that she was not that she's not great right now and she raised great kids and she had a great marriage, but >> who could my mother have become? >> Who could she become? >> Who could my like what? And it doesn't mean that she was could have been a famous maybe she could have been famous, but maybe she could have just enjoyed her life more creating the art she had inside of her. >> Yeah. Like like like she will tell you herself that uh she asked that question, right? And again, you know, is she sorry that she raised her family? Like did she did she feel like she had infinite freedom? Like no, but yeah. No. And and um you'll be happy to know at age 91. I mean, she paints every day like >> and how does it make her feel or look or what's her energy like? She texted me once and she said um in this text message like when I paint I have no age like I forget that I am old. Wow. >> Right. Um and she says like every day I'm good to work to like make these dreams come true. Yeah. Like God bless. She's very healthy 91year-old. But I think it's just um I mean it really is. It's like okay now she's in a situation where like there are people I asked her about her art. Like growing up I was not part of a situation that was supportive. I never asked mom like, "Do you want to go to the art museum? Like, what are you working on?" Like, "Do you like this painting?" Like, now I ask her about art. I ask her to send pictures there. I go to her art studio. Like I like I'm only a tiny part of that situation. But but yeah, and I think the the point that I'm, you know, inadequately expressing is like again, it's not about 5% or 7% gains. It's a transformation in like in who you are. Like you're you are a different person. You are a different person when you're in a different situation. >> So true. I've got a a couple final questions for you. This has been powerful. I didn't even ask you any questions. >> I can't believe we talked about my marriage the whole time. >> I think it's fascinating. [laughter] >> It's okay. It's an important part of my life. >> I think you learn so much about a human being based on the people they're with. And I just don't think you would be as happy and healthy and, you know, successful in your career without a great partner supporting you and encouraging you. We talked about off camera about, you know, early on in your career, you thought you might want to study the placebo. I'm a big fan of the placebo of like even if it's not true, if you believe something to be true, it gives you that that belief, that energy, that >> self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Yeah. And it's like and it makes you more gritty and all these things like support each other. >> The million effect and the placebo effect are highly related. They're both about belief and they're both about the belief preceding the reality but then creating the reality, right? >> There's a book out uh by Near Ael. Do you know him? He wrote a book called Beyond Belief. >> Yeah. Really interesting. >> His book is near. He's a psychologist or something, right? Like Israeli, right? Okay. Yeah. >> It's called Beyond Belief. >> I haven't read it, but I think I read his previous book. >> Book is powerful. >> Yeah. >> I think the previous book was called Hooked, I think it was. Yes, that is the one. Yeah. Yeah. About distractions. >> The new one is about belief. You should check it out. It's called Beyond belief. And >> I believe he was also atheist I believe before from what he was talking about. And he said >> in all my research of studying beliefs and the benefits of belief, >> I now pray to God even though I don't necessarily I didn't grow up thinking about this, but I >> and I never prayed before, >> but prayer makes you happier and healthier and helps you accomplish your goals more. >> So, I'm going to believe. So, I believe it even if I don't know really 100% there's a there's a God like there. I choose to believe. >> I'm choosing to believe based on the psychological, emotional, and health benefits in my life. >> Prayer. >> Yeah. >> And so I pray every day because I believe it's going to make me better. >> Yeah. >> And whether and then when you're talking about your your husband Jason, how he prays every day. >> Yeah. >> To be better and how can I have more integrity and make better choices. >> You know what? There are lots of books about believing and I am not saying that that like you shouldn't read that one but I will say mindset you know like you know like you like there there are lots of things about what you do in your mind you pray >> you meditate you set goals um I think I believe in all of it by the way like I I I think there should be a thousand books a million books right because that is a lot of of changing like your behavior to be better than you were yesterday but I would tell you this many people let's take prayer as an example like why are there churches and mosques and synagogues right like why are there sacred spaces right like well the same reason why there are libraries and restaurants >> and art museums and >> and art museums and art studios right like uh and I know we've talked a lot about relationships as being the most important part of your situation but just on the side of the like the physical space matter too right I think prayer is easier in certain places like you could pray at Starbucks. >> Sure. >> You know, and maybe some people are really good at praying in Starbucks, but when I go to church, which I do, um, you know, like that's a different space, right? >> More present to it. You're more >> at least for me, right? So, so again, like it's a late understanding of mine in a way cuz I think I was like, if you just try hard, everything will work out. It's like, no, no, you try hard >> in a great situation. I think that situation should have the people who bring out your best. >> Yes. first and foremost. I think we agree. We naturally agree. >> And the environment >> and the physical environment. >> Well, you put people first. So, you know, that's I'm with you. Like I'm speaking from the same himnil. But um but I think the I think the physical matter I mean when I walked into this place I was like oh I love it right like and I I think it create great vibe right like details matter. So like do all the details matter the same? No. But I think like once you just open your eyes like just look around, right? like look around. Who are you with? Where are you? What is within reach? Like what do you see? You know, do you like the billboards in the city that you live in? Or do you look at those billboards and you say like what am I doing here? I will tell you the billboards are different in LA than they are in Philadelphia. >> They're not as they're probably not as they don't make you feel as good probably. >> Well, have you been to Philadelphia? >> Oh, haven't been there a long time. So maybe >> um >> I know the weather's better here. >> I think our billboards are 90% about >> You can see the billboards. You can't see in the rain there. The clouds. >> Okay, that's true. Well, that's the other problem. But um but in Philadelphia, our billboards are most mostly like um you know like how to you know sue people like you know >> political or government legal >> like the legal thing where like you know the guys there's a lot of those here too though on the highway they're everywhere. Yeah. >> Maybe that made me feel better. I just like passed a lot of entertainment ones so I just thought like very different thing but um but yeah you should just be I think be aware of before you change your situation right because absolutely you should but I think just being aware that's probably step one just like notice >> step one >> yeah that's it this powerful I got a couple final questions this question is uh something I ask everyone at the end called the three truths >> okay >> hypothetical scenario you get to live as long as you want but it's your last day on earth you get to accomplish and create everything you want on this road that you're on Um, but for whatever reason in the hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book is gone, great is gone, all of your speeches, content, video, all gone from this podcast. Everything before this moment. >> Yes. But you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons that you've learned from your experience that you would share with the world and we get to keep that. What would those three truths be for you? >> Number one, effort is the final common path to greatness. Number two, effort pays off more in certain situations than others. >> Mhm. >> Number three, you can change your situation for the better. >> Another hypothetical scenario, if you could go back to the day you graduated where your mom put her hands on your shoulders and said, "Now you can be a wife. >> Now you're ready to be a wife. >> Now you're ready to be a wife." >> Yeah. If you could go back and just, you know, hypothetically time travel, you are who you are now and you see that girl then on graduation day and if you were able to send a message to her and speak to her for 30 to 60 seconds >> and you were able to look in the camera and speak to her, what would that message be to her of everything that she's about to go through and what advice would you give her? I would say Angie, you think of life as a watercolor and you think that when you brush a stroke of pigment, you can't undo it. But that's not the right metaphor because life is not a watercolor painting where the job is to be perfect, make no mistakes, and that things get ruined unless they don't get ruined. It's an oil painting. In an oil painting, you can just like throw on a whole another layer. The things, you know, it's it's a work in progress. Um, when I was 22, I thought I would just try harder and harder, live as perfect a life as I could in every dimension. Um, and when things did go south, um, in any endeavor, um, I did try harder. But in that one crucial decision where I chose the road I chose the chose you know I chose the road with Jason um it was a shift from the watercolor metaphor like this marriage must be ruined to like it's an oil painting and if we can put ourselves in the right situation then >> we're going to be more than okay and if I hadn't shifted metaphors >> I would not have been able to make those adjustments that put us on the road I'm glad I'm on. >> Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, Angie, I want to acknowledge you for the book you created, uh, Situated: Find the People in Places That Bring Out Your Best >> People First. people first. That for me, this is the book everyone should be reading right now because I I'm just a big believer proximity is power. And this gives you more tools and more wisdom on how to make sure you're in proximity to the right people and places to support your goals, support your dreams, and ultimately live a better life, live a happier, more fulfilled life in a world where a lot of people are struggling and stressing. And that's what we try to do here on the School of Greatness is give people those tools. So, I want to acknowledge you for this. I want to acknowledge you for opening up and talking about your marriage. I don't know if you thought you'd be doing that here today. >> I did not think so. Um, but you know what? I was happy to do it. Can I ask you a question? I know that you often ask your >> uh your interviewees, your guests, like what their definition of greatness is. >> Well, that's my next question for you, but answer. Yeah. For me, it's u discovering your unique talents and gifts that God gave you to pursue your dreams and in that pursuit making the maximum impact on the people around you. And earlier in my life, I would have thought greatness is about being the best, being number one, and winning. And that's kind of what I thought it was when I was like a teenager, 20s, you know, something. And I realized that that definition or that belief in my mind got me those results but left me feeling unhappy because I was making it all about me and what I wanted rather about you know we and service. And so then I as I started to start the school of greatness, >> yeah, >> I went through a healing journey and a and a journey of more self-discovery and wondering why I was feeling this anger and frustration inside of me even though I was accomplishing everything that I wanted. >> Right? You were winning, >> but why am I unhappy? Why am I Why am I in breakdown relationship? Why why what's going on? >> Yeah. >> And I realized I was just like, "Oh, that's not the secret to a fulfilling life. It's about we. It's about everyone needs to win. It should be about win-win, not win lose, >> right? >> And in sports, you know, you're just conditioned like win, give your best, like get better, improve. And if you're not a winner, >> lose. >> And if you're not a winner, you're a loser. >> Right? >> So that framework of sports is a win-lose. Unless you look at sports differently and say, even if I lose, how can I win? Even if I lose, where's the lesson? Where was the growth? Where was the good? What about that moment we had as teammates? Like what did I learn from my coach? What about that sportsmanship that we created here? Or what about the other team was really negative and nasty and I responded with my integrity, you know, whatever it might be. Where's the win in the loss? And I just never thought of that when I was growing up. I thought like if we don't win, then I'm a loser. I am a loser, >> right? >> And I cannot deal with feeling like I am. Not I experienced a loss. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> it was an identity of I am >> instead of >> we experience this loss in this game but I am not a loser. And it was like no any loss I am not enough. And so it was more of a oh this is unsustainable way of living life. >> Yeah. >> And I believe like your mom she had an incredible talent and gift that God someone gave her that she was curious about. She wanted to paint >> and she pursued that for a while and then she had to diminish it for a while >> and now she's doing it again. And she says she feels ageless and it doesn't mean she has to be some famous worldass painter that is recognized in the Philadelphia Museum and makes millions of dollars, >> but she feels the most alive she's ever felt. It sounds like pursuing her gift and talent. And I believe it shouldn't be with only ourselves. It should be shared our gift and talent whether that's with a small community, friends, family, the world, whatever it might be. But if we don't share it, then I don't think it's greatness. So it's finding way to to discover our talents and gifts, sharing with others and making an impact on those people around us with our talents. That's for me what it is. But what's your definition of greatness? I think greatness is being part of and in service to something larger than yourself. And that is also the definition I would give for meaning. >> Um and the longer explanation is this. I think the psychologist who has influenced me at least as much as any other is Victor Frankle. >> Yeah. Manarch stimulus and response. >> And I think Victor Frankle is not understood. I think there's a mistake we make when we think of Victor Frankle. People are like, "Oh, right. the psychiatrist who survived Awitz um uh that's true um stimulus and response right between stimulus and response there's a space in that space we find our freedom um he often quoted Nze and he would say things about how you cannot always change your situation but you can change how you respond to the situation and I think that's the lesson that people take from man's search for meaning and then his own triumph in adversity because when you are in a concentration camp there's very little you can do to change your situ situation. But if you read Man Search for Meaning carefully, um he says two things that I think are not um always understood about Victor Frankle, um one is he says emphatically, when you can change your situation, you should because not to do so would be foolish and masochistic. >> Don't stay in a horrible situation. >> I mean, maybe you are in a concentration camp. You have zero degrees of freedom. You can't change like where this cup is. You can't change what's in the cup. You can't change where your phone is. you can't change whether you know you hang out with this person or that person you have zero freedom. I think Victor Franco when he escaped um when he was released from the concentration camps and he came especially to lecture in America he said you know emphatically that you do have freedoms and so you should consider them responsibly. So that's one mistake we make that like Victor Franco did not want us to only think about how we respond to our situation. Victor Franco wanted us to be in better situations and make them better for others. And the second thing I'll say, >> maybe him, he would have put places first over the people. >> I don't know. Victor Frankle, I wish I I'm not going to put words in Victor Frankle and you probably would say, "Oh, it's both." Um, he probably put people first, but Victor Frankle had a de like when you talk about what what you are trying to accomplish in the short time you have on this planet, Lewis, and I think our definitions of greatness overlap, right? It's about pointing towards something that's not you, right? Like greatness isn't self-actualization. It is what Franco called self-trcendence. So again, I don't know that people like got into the nitty-gritty of what Victor Franco wrote about for the rest of his life because he wrote over 30 books, right? Man searching was the first um he had a debate with Abraham Maslo. Abraham Maslo's higher Yes. Wow. >> They were contemporaries. >> Um both Jewish. Um uh Abraham Maslo born in the Bronx or something or Brooklyn. So like did not survive the concentration camps, but they they sparred, right? They're both great psychologists. The reason why they debated each other is they had a disagreement over what was the highest expression of human existence? >> In other words, what is greatness? Yeah. And in 1943, Masler wrote a paper with a hierarchy of needs. On the bottom is like, you know, food and um safety. Exactly. All the survival needs and then it's like and then there's to love and be loved and then there's esteem. But the top right so the you know the top he never drew a pyramid but the top of this hierarchy was self-actualization realizing your potential realizing your gifts and your ambitions but that was not what you gave you said in service to others right um so the debate was that Victor Frankle thought Abraham Maslo had missed the final layer he he called it self-trcendence he said it's not self-actualization it's to be pointed outward to something greater than yourself to other people. So, I will just say that I think a lesson that I would hope people would take from a careful reading of Man's Search for Meaning and Victor Frankle is that greatness is not self-actualization. It is self-actualization in service of self-trcendence. >> Uh, I like it. And you could either take that lesson or the fact that like, you know, Victor Frankle doesn't want you to be a massochist and like suffer in a in a losing. He doesn't want you to be in a bad marriage. He doesn't want you have a toxic, you know, work environment. But um but I do think that there's so much wisdom there and I do believe that there is a space between stimulus and response and in there there lies freedom and I also believe that you can change the stimulus itself. Yeah. Like marry Martha or Jason like find your Martha like find your Jason like be with the people who bring out your best. It will change your life. It will change you. >> Amen. Amen. Angela, I appreciate you being here. I want to make make sure people get the book situated. It's out right now. And also hopefully we see you more on Instagram because I saw some sparse content on there. But hopefully you're on there more frequently in the future. So Angel situation, you're gonna see me. >> Angela Duckworth on Instagram. Duckworth Lab on YouTube as well. And uh Angie, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you very much. >> I enjoyed it. >> Thank you. >> I was like, my god, man. like you know she she was in a dark place and I was in a dark place and we were kind of on our [music] own in in the same house but living different lives and I realized at this time in my life she was a great mom but I was on my own and that's when the real big change happened for me so I said I'm going to join the military