The Psychology of Negotiation: Q&A with Barry Nalebuff and Daylian Cain

Hi there, greetings. Today I'm here to introduce a colleague and friend of mine who has a new course on Corsera. This is my friend Dalian Kaine and his new course is called the psychology of negotiation. It's up, it's live, it's fabulous. Dale and I have been teaching here at Yale together for over a decade. We co-design the core negotiation course and so our thoughts uh it's what is it the bulkan mindset >> and we agree on everything >> pretty much my course >> oh I guess we disagree about that [laughter] >> my course is more of a economist perspective and Dian comes with the salesperson perspective the psychology perspective the behavioral decisionmaking perspective I should warn you that he is a world's expert in poker. So, uh his moniker there is raising cane. So, be warned if you ever end up playing him in poker. >> Well, sometimes I don't I don't practice what I preach. I know I know the game. Uh but I often never fold and then I'm the biggest loser in my own home game. So, uh you're going to you're going to win just fine. Don't worry. >> So, Dian, help the learners understand how your course is different from intro to negotiation. Um well I mean we you and I co-e uh we often complete our own sentences each other's sentences in class so we agree my course is it's short that's one thing >> I don't know how sweet it is but it is short it's less than nine hours I would say uh four modules each one has an AI bot that you can practice a case with so that's kind of fun there's also a case you can do with a human partner it's optional if you want to do it do it with a buddy I think my course would resonate more with salespeople because it has you don't have to be interested in sales, but it does have a it has a sales bent. It's how to figure people out. How to figure out the person sitting across from you. So, there's a lot of that. It's what card, you know, to use the poker analogy, it's what cards do you show, what cards do you do you hide versus reveal? And uh people often get that wrong. So, I go into depth there. >> A lot of people think negotiation is like being read your Miranda rights. Anything you ca anything you say can and will be used against you. >> Probably will be. Yeah. >> But in fact, if you don't reveal what it is that you want, then it's hard for the other side to give you what you want because they don't know it. >> Yeah. I mean, you and your books and you are like the seinal person on negotiation as a problem-solving exercise and it's and people often think it's a win-lose battle. Uh they don't see it. It's partially win-lose. I mean, you you would agree there are some issues where it's a fight, but let's expand the pie before we fight and and and maybe even better, let's expand the pie before we split it. >> So, I think what Dalian is going to help you understand is how to best grow the pie. And there's two ways to do that that he emphasizes. One is finding elegant trades. What's super valuable to you and not so costly to me. also of course what's super valuable to me and not that costly to you. And then the second is trying to find win-win opportunities >> common ground. >> And so with that, as a bonus for the folks who have listened this far, >> let's uh take a hat. >> We've got some questions from learners about course. So let's see. >> And we do not know what they are. How can you tell if something small for you like timing details or a specific asset is actually really important to the other side in a negotiation? >> Well, that's interesting. So, I often tell students never ask or offer anything until you know how they feel about everything. In other words, I think what's interesting about that question is if something's small to me but important to you, I might not want to give it away. Uh, and >> you do want to give it away. You just want to I don't want to give it away. you want to be. I want to sell it. Uh, right. And and so the question is, well, how do you really know the value of it? And I'm not going to propose any trade until I know what he wants, why, in what order. Let's focus on the order. I should know if there's nine issues, what's top three, middle three, bottom three for you. So, I already done my homework and asked him whether these things that are important to me are important to you. To me the key lesson is just because it's small to you doesn't mean that it's going to be small to the other side and so by asking what's more important and there's also I think Den will talk about the XYZ >> yeah technique we'll talk about that later >> offering them choices of things that are comparable and you'll discover that this feature which is small to you could end up being quite important to them. Yeah, in the course we talk about something called multiple equivalent simultaneous offers and that's what Barry's referring to. Yeah. >> Where do you get that great shirt? That wasn't the class. Okay. >> Linen. >> How do we apply these techniques in high stakes scenarios? >> Oh, gee, you should be answering that. >> I would say that we practice in low and medium stake scenarios so that we're better at it. Uh Herb Cohen has said, and I agree with that, you're the worst negotiator when you care too much, that it's about things that are really important to you. Uh and so you want to be able to step away from yourself in this and take a more objective third party perspective. and having some tools that you can rely on will help bring down the emotional temperature when the stakes really matter. I've been surprised when I talk to people doing big deals that they're making some of the same even worse blunders of the they're doing some of the same mistakes. And in module one, I won't give you away the story now, but I talk about trees in the desert about time when I was in the Middle East talking to a super billionaire about a merger and he made a fundamental error that I talk about in the story of the tree. >> You sure you can't tell us what the error was? >> Uh, sure. They were doing a merger or a special acquisition with risk sharing. >> Yeah. >> And they were happy to tell me that they split the risk 50/50. And they said, "Isn't that great?" >> And the answer is no because one of them was probably a lot better at handling that risk than the other. >> Actually, yes. And it turns out that it was a a regulatory risk, which means that you go to zero. Now, who should take a regulatory risk? A multi-billion dollar firm or a multi-million dollar firm? There's a right answer here. >> Yes. >> And so it's interesting that even billionaires get some of this wrong. >> How do you not let your individual personality get in the way of what you're trying to accomplish? >> Wow. It's a big one. I mean, that's it depends on the >> And I'm putting that on you because you're the psychologist. >> Yeah. I think that depends on the personality error. I I'll say this. It's not a very sexy answer, but one of the biggest coralates to success in my class, uh, you get rated on personality scales, how other people perceive you. And one of the best predictors of how well you'll do is how other people perceive you as prepared, which is probably correlated to how prepared you actually are. And in the prep sheet I provide in the course, a lot of the things are like I have my own foibless and things that I constantly will mess up. And the preparation sheet is how I can just prepare for that. In other words, the battle is won days before, you know, the the war is won days before the battle begins. So this is the more you wing it, the more your personality flaws are going to manifest and therefore by being prepared you can have uh more logic. And uh >> ma'am, before you go to the next one, let me say I can be quick here. I'll say something is very important, but I'm not able to teach my students to do it. >> I I can't get them to take breaks during the negotiation. >> Yep. >> And I think and it's harder these days cuz people don't smoke. >> They don't smoke. No, that's He's not kidding. Smoke breaks were a great excuse to literally go to the balcony. Uh a famous negotiation phrase. And so I often tell students, uh, you're not going to be your best self when you're in there, you're fighting, you're stressed, they're you're wondering if they're lying to you or not, you're confused, and the the remedy is not rocket science. Like, just get out of the room and take a break. Sounds sounds like bad advice, but no, trust me, you got to do it. Try it. >> And it's simple. >> It's simple. >> Okay. Uh, let's take a break right now. No, just kidding. >> Actually, we could I got to come up with better answers. How do experienced negotiators avoid anchoring bias when the first price or offer is introduced early in a negotiation? >> Uh, that's pretty easy. Taking a it's it's really hard to avoid. So, Anchor, if he if I'm trying to sell him this hat and he says uh daily and I give you eight bucks for it, uh, it's worth a lot more than that. And rather than stay in there, sometimes I should just walk away. Get him to start again. Don't respond to his low offer, but just remake make him reoffer. But also again, I can be brief here. Walk away. Take a break. Uh anchors fade after a few seconds. Uh they don't last forever. >> I think it's a good idea to call out the technique. And >> like nice low ball, Barry. Good low ball. I appreciate that. Uh, I I've read that book, too. Uh, the other is to use humor. So, it's a little bit of, "Oh, great. Where do I sign?" Uh, and then they're like all excited. Yes, great. And it's like, oh, just kidding. Uh, look, if we want to have a serious negotiation, I'd like you to start with a a serious number because that's just not in the realm. >> That is a real example from your life. I I know the story. >> It is indeed. [laughter] And let me add, I'd say the other uh point is when the person says they've moved a lot because they uh and you should be reciprocal on how much you're moving. I think you have to call them out on the fact that look, you don't get any points and uh coming from $8 up to 50 because the $8 was a ridiculous number. And so >> yeah, they want to split the difference between reasonable where you're at and crazy where they're at and meeting them in the middle is h crazy. And so they're looking for reciprocity and the answer is uh I could get $4 hat tomorrow on eBay and so I'm only going to count numbers from 40 up, not from eight up in terms of how far you move. How do you deal with a lying opponent both mentally and tactically? >> You know, I'm just going to say take my course because we talk a lot about this and we've got lots of tools. I'll give you a bunch of high flutin names, multiple equivalent simultaneous offers, post settlement settlements, contingent contracts. Look, I grew up negotiating with some pretty mean people. Uh, not my parents. My parents were nice, but I grew up uh negotiating with some foster brothers, and I I grew up thinking about how do you negotiate with people who aren't trying to be fair and don't haven't read the book. And so, there's a lot of this in the course. Um, the other thing is whenever I'm uncomfortable or I worry that you're lying to me, I I have a hard time calling someone a liar. It's kind of innocent before proven guilty. >> You figured it out. >> If Well, if I figured that out for sure, I'm out. >> So, you're just going to walk away if the other person's lying? >> I guess it depends how much pie I'm getting, right? Because, you know, can I put up with a lie? I think one of the things you should be prepared. You should be prepared to deal with a jerk sometimes. And sometimes the mistake that people have is if you lie, if someone's lying to me, to a student, the mistake the student will make is they'll walk away, burn the deal because they're a jerk. Yeah, you just walked away from $300,000. Though, >> a classic lie would be, "I can't pay any more than $200." And next thing you know, they're offering you $220. So, wait a second. You just told me you can't pay more than 200, and now apparently you're doing that. So >> yeah. So there I would notice it. I I often don't call them out on it. Um if it's if I don't call people out on BS, but I do note when people are lying to me and I would take a break. Um but in the course we're going to tell you techniques, not they're not lie detection techniques because there's I can't I can't teach you X-ray vision, but they're more uh truth enhancement techniques. how to make him more comfortable to tell you the truth, but what he really wants, why, in what order. >> I'll also encourage people not to lie. It's so easy. So, if somebody asks you what's the most you're willing to pay for this, you can say, "Look, I don't feel comfortable answering that question for the same reason why I don't think you're going to tell me what the least amount you're willing to sell this for is." >> Yeah, I I can give a quick preview. For example, if I offer Barry two packages, package A and B, and they're worth the same to me, they're they have one has a different salary or a different location, their package deals, >> two equivalent packages, two equivalent perspective from my perspective, and I can say, which do you like the most or which do you hate the least? You don't have to accept either one. I might have to improve them, but where do you want to get the conversation started? It's it I'm not just saying, "Hey, Barry, which do you like, A or B?" It's I'm indifferent between the two. And so if you like A but point me towards B, who is he hurting? He's hurting himself. And as long as he understands [clears throat] both of us because you're making it harder for us to do is shrinking now. >> And so so if he understands that it's in both of our interests, good point to that you elicit the truth. Uh that that's not not a lie detection technique, but a great truthpromoting technique. Basically, it's really hard for you to give me what it is that I want if I lie to you about what it is that I want because then we can't do a good job problem solving. >> And I think often I mean some people just lie all the time, but I think if they're lying to you, you may have failed to set the tone of the conversation that there is we're going to fight, but that's not what we're doing now. We're going to fight tomorrow, but right now we're just trying to figure out what the pie is. If we've agreed up front to split the pie, then actually we've solved that fight and now we can spend all of our efforts on trying to grow the pie. >> Yeah. And so I think if you if you negotiate the process where we're going to have uh an easy get to know you conversation in the beginning, they'll have less incentive to lie because they'll understand that your questions are light easy get to know you type. So try also not to ask people questions where you have put them in a position where they'll want to lie about the answer. >> And this is part of preparation. You have you have a hundred questions to ask them. Don't ask them what their budget is in the in the first minute. They don't want to tell you. They're going to lie. Don't ask it. >> What if your counterpart has not done their homework and thus might not correctly value aspects of the proposed deal? often uh in what I see in the class is the most difficult opponents are the unprepared ones. >> Yes. Let's not call them opponents by the way. Let's call them negotiating partners. >> So that actually this is one place where you and I disagree a little because I think at heart we we agree. I think you can play fair with opponents as well. >> Okay. But putting using the word opponent is putting me in the mindset already of win lose. It's interesting that that's the psychologist should I should be saying this uh because psychology is all about how you frame it. >> I want to be thinking about how we can grow the pie together and if I'm calling you my opponent then it's putting me in a mindset which is not one of growth. Uh so I'd say if they're not prepared >> that's unfortunate but I can actually help them prepare. And in particular, people often don't want to show their spreadsheets to the other side. But those are cases where I think it's going to be even more important to help them understand why this offer is good for them, why you're not trying to take advantage of them. Because if they're unprepared, they're going to be really extra worried about this deal going to be uh there's some trick, something hidden up your sleeve. And so one of the things that uh I thought was great about the NBA when I worked with them is that we give all of our numbers to the the players. So there's no surprises in terms of what the profits are of each team, what the revenues are of each team. And essentially uh you're always going to be a situation where one party has more knowledge than the other. And if you're not trying to take advantage of that knowledge, then share it so that the other side can feel comfortable. >> Yeah, I agree. I think that one of the places that people are most likely to be unprepared, both you and them, is putting a value on the intangibles, number one, and also the having a good preference ordering. In other words, you know that there's nine things and you know what you want and why, but do you know in what order? Do you know what's number seven, what's number three, what's number four? And so that technique of do you prefer this or that? Help me order your preferences along with you is a great way of getting them organized. >> And let me flip this question >> because what if you're the party who's less prepared in the negotiation? >> Why are we here then? >> You know, I mean, it happens. >> And so the question is, what do you do then? And I think the answer is you ask the other side for their help. and uh I was involved in negotiating the terms of the airport uh lease in New Haven at tweet and I'm negotiating with an investment bank who's done this 20 times, 50 times. You know how many times I had done this before? Zero. And so there was just no way I was ever going to be as prepared as they were for this negotiation. And so I asked them, "Please show me your spreadsheet because essentially, one, I don't have six months to do this. Two, even if I did it for 6 months, I wouldn't know as much as you. And so if you want to persuade me that this is a reasonable deal, then you got to walk me through the numbers because I'm supposed to recommend this to the mayor and right now I don't have the confidence to do it. And so you have to help me help you." This reminds me when I was negotiating I was going to say against with with the dean uh the dean of Yale at the time Joel Podoni. One of the things I said is look I teach negotiations but I have never negotiated a professor contract and you do this all the time. What are some of the things I should ask for that are valuable to one side cheap to the other that I don't even know enough to ask? And he said he says I'm not giving you the keys to the kingdom. And I was like that's not what I mean. I just I just want the king key to my office, please. >> I just I just want to know where to sign up for parking. And he said, "Well, there's not parking is not a problem." I'm like, "Well, that's what I mean. I I don't want your parking spot or a special parking spot. Just show me what should I be asking for that's valuable to me and easy for you." He did give me something. Made me keep it secret. >> He I think it was perhaps >> He knows what it is. >> Perhaps it was something for your home office. >> He does know what it is. How do you find your zopa? So your zopa is your zone of potential agreements. >> I don't know how much in your course uh you talk about when the pie is uncertain, what are some techniques you want to take that first? >> Well, there's two parts of the zopa. >> Uh how low are you willing to go? How high are they willing to go? And so you should work hard to figure out what your actual reservation number is, what your walkway number is. And then uh you need to work on that with the other side. I would say getting people to reveal those numbers is going to be a whole lot easier if you first agree that you're going to split the pie because that's guaranteeing you're going to the middle of the ZOPA. And so I'm not going to get stuck at one end or the other. You know, I could say a lot about this and I do in the course, how to figure their preferences out and the value proposition, but I just want to since I'm sitting next to Barry, one of the most profound things, insights I've had on this question, I learned completely from you. This the the idea of splitting the pie. It's not just some mathematical thing. Let me give you an example. If if you have if you have a 370k budget for some pizza store and they're they're they're demanding 369 or 370. If all you're trying to do is beat your reservation price, I guess you could make the deal. And you know like let's let's say at 369 you know your gains a,000 and a lot of students say why shouldn't I take that deal? It's worth it. Now here's the thing. Do you know what the pie is? No. But here's what you do know. You're not getting much if any of it. There's almost nothing you risk by walking your way. >> And you'll discover that the other side is pretty keen to have you not walk away. >> So if I pay 369, it must be because I think your other offer is 368. Now if you trick me, I guess, but I just asked my students, do you think the other side's getting more pie than you? And it's surprising. They don't say, I don't know. What they say is, yeah, I think I got beat, but a crumb is better than nothing. And and this is what Barry's course is world class at teaching you. It's a super important insight. You don't have to know. Even if you don't know what the pie is, you know when you're not getting any of it. And if you don't know what the pie is, don't shake their hand. >> How do you systematically lead the negotiation? I would say, why is it I'm trying to lead the negotiation? >> Yeah, that's uh why am I also not following that is >> that's a partnership, right? >> Exactly. And so, uh, you know, there's the old question, should I talk more or listen more? >> Okay, you've connected it for me. Yeah. Go ahead. >> And my view is that you should talk as much as you listen because if you're not sharing, then they're not learning. And so, uh, I guess I want to co-lead the negotiation. I don't necessarily want to follow everything they're doing, but I also don't want them to be always following me because probably means I'm not learning enough about them. >> You made me realize the wisdom of the question. Let me say something on it. If I have a lot of questions for him and I notice that he's uncomfortable, you don't, you know, you just notice that they're uncomfortable. Like, why are you selling your business, Barry? And he's kind of like, I'm not telling you that. You can lead by answering your own question. like here's I don't mean to get up in your business but it's literally about to become my business. I hope you're not going across the street to compete against me. I hope there's not a leak >> giving some multiple choice answers. >> Yeah. Like there's not a leak in the there's not a leak in the furnace is there. But but here's why I'm here. And so you can reciprocate because >> you can even pre-recate. >> Yeah. Exactly. And so I think I think leading the Q&A process is something I talk a lot about. I hadn't framed it as leading but I talk a lot about that in the course. How can I avoid being so obvious about what I want to achieve so the other side doesn't notice? Let me >> think we had a version of this question. >> Let me read this again because my empasis was wrong. >> How can I avoid being so obvious about what I want to achieve? Still can't get it right. How can I be >> How can I hide what I want? >> How can I be so obvious about reading this question? >> You can't. The question is so antithetical to what Barry teaches, he can't brain. He can't brain it. >> How can I avoid being so obvious about what I want to achieve so the other side doesn't notice? >> Yeah. I mean, I I want to be obvious. >> Exactly. I think the question is backward which is if the other side doesn't completely understand what I want to achieve then uh I think the line from what is it uh Luke uh I think we have a failure to communicate here uh cool hand Luke uh so don't worry about being obvious about what you want to achieve I think most people have trouble the other way which at the end of the day the other side doesn't know what it is you want to achieve Cultural differences in negotiation. >> Oh, big one. >> In a diverse cultural environment, trying to build a relationship could seem invasive. Maybe just seeing what kind of negotiation fits most cultures and what could be no goes in other ones. Okay, so this is such a big question and it's the most popular that I've talked to Yale and my producer sitting over there that the if I did such a short course that if I do part two, I've got a whole module planned on cultural differences. Um, so much of what I'm teaching is so honed into the individual anyway. I want to find out what Barry wants, why in what order that I'm going to pick up a lot. Like you don't want to treat culture as I think it's oversimplification to say Chinese culture like is is it a a an older Chinese person, a younger someone from the city, someone from the countryside, someone who works in the factory or someone who owns it and so so you don't want to put too much emphasis on generalized culture, but you also don't want to put too little. I certainly when I'm on a plane to another country, I'm reading the books. Uh there's a there's a series of books uh kiss bow shake hands. So it's like kiss bow shake hands Saudi Arabia kiss bow shake hands China. Um and so I'm trying to remind myself about for example how much there are cultural differences on openness uh to questions and all of this but mostly nobody wants to answer all your questions unless you have good rapport in a relationship. But everybody wants to make an elegant trade and expand the pie. And so how you do it will change from culture to culture, but the main things we're teaching are universal. >> And let me add, I've never met a culture where people want to be treated unfairly. So we have this video from Frs about capuchans where one gets >> all the grapes. >> One gets grapes, one gets cucumbers. the one who gets cucumbers just throws it away because he sees the other one getting grapes. And so I've literally not seen anyone who says yes, in our culture we want to get less than half the pie. And so this notion of treating the other side and yourself fairly, I think is something that goes across all cultures. and my course about how to find elegant trades and not leave pie on the table or make efficient deals, you know, not wasting what you value, that's that's universal. But how you do it, uh, that takes an art and, uh, it's it's something I want to speak to in part two if they if if they give me one. But first, you want to go through part one. How would you handle a new round of negotiations with a longtime client who constantly complains and pushes for discounts even though the market doesn't support it? >> You want to take that one, Barry? >> No, I don't. >> All right. So, >> this is we get a lot of versions of this from people who are they're like, I I get a client or a supplier who knows I'm going to say yes and nickels and dimes me. What should I do? And often often the answer is you give it to them but you take note and they need to give something back to you next time. It's a give and take. Uh you have to understand the what your options are if you say no to this but also what their options are. Uh I think you should label this. So we we talked earlier about should you like call people out on the lie? Sometimes, maybe not, but I often call people out on this. >> Right. So, this is there's a video in my course with Herb Cohen where somebody uh you're doing this the salesperson for the suit and they've got you all pinned and they're ready to go for it. Uh and then the customer says, "And I expect you to throw in the tie." Uh and Herb says, "Oh, that's a really good nibble." Uh >> good nibble. >> The nibble. And [laughter] so, basically calling out the strategy and having some fun with it. uh is a good example. The other question, of course, is are there nibbles you can get back? And so you want me to do this? Fine. Here are some little things you can do for me. Turn it from a beg or a demand into a trade and give it to them, but get something back in return. But you don't have to like punch them back. You should trade with them in a way that they are happy and what they have to do in return is easy for them, valuable to you. That's what you're looking for. >> Yep. >> Our kind and yet taskmaster Matt >> is telling us off camera >> that we have time for one more question. >> And here we go. What deal? >> He said we are done and Barry said one more >> and nibble and nibble. >> What deal have you got wrong and what was the lesson learned? >> Oh, that's interesting. I'd like you to answer that as well. I'd be curious. My greatest negotiation successes at Yale. So, some context. I am not a big shot here. There's Corsera courses from Barry Nailbuff, from Bob Schiller. These are the power players of the university. I'm not one of them. And I have Well, yeah, I I yeah likes me, but but I'm not I'm not a Nobel Prize winner or something. But anyway, I have had great success negotiating with Yale with one technique and I know the question was about failure and I'll get to it. My greatest successes have come from meetings before meetings talking to people like Barry, Jim Baron, uh, whoever about what they think of the meet the meeting the negotiations next week. What do the big power players think about the issues and figure things out ahead of time? But let me just cut to the failures. I I have one particular in mind, but it my greatest organizational failures in regards to negotiating here have been me not doing that. Me not going to the power players and saying no one was enemies, but there was there were some views of who's on what side and are there opponents. I don't want to get into the Yale politics of it all, but that that that is my most salient failure is not going to those people a week ahead of time and knocking on their door. Now, let me turn to a teaching point. If you do have meetings before the meetings, one mistake that executives often have, if you have a big board meeting coming up in two weeks, you'll talk to some senior vice president first two weeks ago, don't forget that every many other people are smart enough to have these meetings and may have changed her mind. In other words, check back in to the key players because two weeks may be old news. I don't want to get into personal failures too much, but there's a hint. I I I that was a big failure for me. >> Well, I'm sorry. I I haven't yet figured out what you learned from your failures here, Dia. >> To have more meetings before meetings and talk to the people on the fifth floor uh before the meeting a little bit more. >> So, they say you learn more from your failures than your successes. And I've tried in my life to stay blissfully ignorant as a result. uh uh and I I think in the course uh it'll I wouldn't say it's my biggest failure, but it's certainly one uh that's amusing, which is in my negotiation with my daughter uh to get her to join the math team in high school. uh we >> the one who wrote the book >> the one who wrote the book we uh successfully uh concluded the deal which was uh rather than saying no we got her to the yes if and the yes if was I'll join the math team if we get a dog uh and uh we got the dog she joined the math team but my mistake was I didn't write a multi-year contract [laughter] we got one year of the math team one week and 13 years of the dog. Now, it was a great dog. It's interesting. >> But I'm pretty sure I could have gotten more than one year. >> If you want the dog to be fed, you have to be on a math team. So, >> I I don't think so. I think it wasn't credible. Good. >> The dog was going to go away. So, I would say uh think about the long-term aspects of the contract, not just the immediate successes. So, hopefully you had a chance to get to know Dalen a little bit. Uh me perhaps too in the process. Uh, I look forward to working with you in terms of introduction to negotiation and having you share the insights of my good friend and colleague Daly and Kate. >> I'm telling you, people love this course. It's been out for a few weeks. Matt and the team did an amazing job and I had 10 TAs working on it and one in particular just told me everything that sucked about the beta version and I worked so hard in the last two months getting it from sucking to I thought it was pretty good. It students love it. I'm telling you you take your grandkids should take it. Your grandparents should take it. Takes nine hours. I I think you're going to love