Video summary
The podcast opens with a discussion on whether tall men are more prone to infidelity, addressing the hypothesis that greater physical stature expands opportunities for cheating. While intuition suggests an association between attractive traits like height and higher rates of fidelity breaches, data analysis from large datasets revealed no such correlation. The speakers acknowledge that while taller individuals may have access to a larger pool of potential partners due to societal preferences for men who are six feet or above, this expanded opportunity does not necessarily translate into actual cheating behavior. This segment highlights the distinction between theoretical advantages in mating markets and observed behavioral outcomes, noting that other attractive traits such as hair color or skin tone similarly do not predict infidelity rates despite increasing visibility within the dating pool. A significant portion of the conversation focuses on a viral Twitter poll regarding actor Olly Murs's dramatic physical transformation from a "dad bod" physique to an incredibly lean state with approximately 10% body fat, achieved through substantial fat loss rather than massive muscle gain. The results showed a stark divergence in preference between genders: men overwhelmingly favored his post-transformation look, while women strongly preferred the version of him before he lost so much weight. This discrepancy sparked accusations that women were being coy or lying about their preferences, but the hosts argue this is unlikely given how openly women express desires for taller and more muscular partners in surveys. The core issue identified was not a rejection of fitness per se, but rather an aversion to extreme leanness; many women indicated they dislike men who are "too lean," suggesting that optimal body fat percentages for female preference hover around 13% to 14%, which is significantly higher than the sub-10% levels often championed by gym enthusiasts. The discussion delves into the technical nuances of measuring body composition, specifically referencing a study utilizing DXA (Dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry) images that verified men's body fat percentages between 13 and 14.1%. While this method provides precise data on actual tissue distribution rather than visual estimation, it has limitations because DXA scans do not always reflect how the human eye perceives a person in real life. The hosts explain that carrying leanness depends heavily on muscle mass and where fat is stored; some individuals can maintain visible abs at higher percentages while others struggle to look healthy below 15%. Olly Murs's specific challenge was described as having "skinny lean," meaning he lacked sufficient underlying muscle mass to carry such low body fat without appearing gaunt or unhealthy. This distinction between looking fit versus looking dry and skeletal is crucial, as it explains why a percentage that seems achievable for some might look detrimental on others who do not build adequate muscle underneath the layer of lost fat. Throughout the analysis, there is an emphasis on reconciling stated preferences with revealed behaviors in evolutionary psychology contexts. The speakers note that while women consistently state they prefer muscular and tall men, their rejection of extreme leanness suggests a complex interplay between health signals and aesthetic ideals. They argue that trust plays a vital role in how these physical traits are interpreted, particularly when evaluating the "healthiness" implied by body composition. Furthermore, the conversation touches on individual variability regarding fat storage patterns; for instance, carrying weight around the midsection versus legs affects overall appearance differently than simple percentage metrics suggest. Ultimately, the consensus is that the ideal male physique involves a balance where sufficient muscle mass supports lower body fat levels without compromising an appearance of vitality, challenging the rigid standards often promoted by fitness culture which equate extreme leanness with peak attractiveness regardless of individual physiology or female preference data.
Read the full video transcript
Do tall men cheat more?
Well,
I thought in the abstract, I answered
this question recently and at the time I
answered it, I was thinking I hadn't
seen data on it and then some online
social scientist who does these analyses
kind of DIY style
replied and basically said I checked
this in a large data set there wasn't an
association.
I would have expected that tall men
would cheat more because they'd have
more opportunity.
>> Mhm. I'm not saying that, you know, all
men who can cheat would, but just
definitionally men who can't cheat don't
and maybe it's very difficult to cheat
if you're 5'4, right? Maybe maybe that
maybe that's a real challenge.
>> Mhm. Um, not saying it's impossible.
>> to assume that the pool is smaller.
Yeah, the pool is smaller. Most women
want a taller guy.
>> Yeah, so I I
I was surprised that there was no that
that I I take his word for it that there
was no association, but I was I was
surprised by that. I would I would think
that there would be an association
between in the abstract, I would think
that any attractive trait in males would
be associated with infidelity. Mhm. Mhm.
Mhm.
A
head of hair, whiter eyes, whiter teeth,
whiter skin and cuz you're just opening
up the pool of opportunity. Yeah,
exactly.
>> Yeah. Can we recap the fallout from the
Olly Murs transformation?
It's a little old now, but I I never
talked about it at the time. So William
Costello puts this Twitter poll out that
for some reason goes absolutely [ __ ]
ballistic. Goes completely interstellar
and there's basically thousands of women
kind of saying if you read the study
that they didn't like leanness and
muscularity. This guy did a big
transformation and went from kind of
standard dude physique with a tiny
little bit of definition to probably
around 10% body fat with a
okay amount of muscularity
uh and women were asked do they prefer
the dad bod version or the lean and
ripped version and tons of them steaming
in and saying no, I prefer that. So give
me a postmortem on Olly Murs's body
transformation. I remember I remember as
soon as William posted it, I thought oh,
that's a really good one. I think I
replied at the time and he like when it
was like really early days and he was
like I can spot a sex difference from
miles away. He's like I can I can
manufacture one of these easily cuz he
obviously is very interested in sex
differences or studies them as part of,
you know, the bus lab and whatnot. And
so he's going to have really good
intuitions for like how to pick good
examples that will draw them out.
>> Something that women will
women men will basically agree about.
>> exactly. Exactly. That's what I should
have said. Yeah, so to clarify with sex
difference, he asked men, do you think
he looks better before or after? Meaning
after this incredible physical
transformation where he's lost copious
amounts of body fat and goes from
essentially yeah, as you say like
muscular guy at the pub, but not much
more than that to
you know, like stage ready basically
except, you know, not not he's not
roided up or anything, but you know,
he's he looks incredibly lean.
Um, and so William posts this and says,
you know, men versus women, you know,
what do what do you guys think? And as
you say, yeah, the women strongly
preferred the before and the men
strongly preferred the after. And there
was an insinuation by men, widespread
insinuation that women were
um basically being coy about their
actual preference or lying about their
preference and that this is kind of like
oh, it's known that women lie about
these things. I'm I'm going to
um the reason that I don't think that is
because when you ask women about their
height preferences, they're very open
about saying it's tall in surveys,
right? So I I look at this this sort of
study and this sort of data these sort
of data all the time. Women are very
open about preferring taller men.
They're also very open about preferring
more muscular men, right? So women say
they prefer taller men and then you look
at height and mating success and
generally taller men are more popular on
the dating market. So that seems true
and stated, true and revealed.
>> Yep. Muscularity, same deal. You ask
women, do you like muscles, right? They
say yes, we like muscles and then you
survey muscular men and it turns out
they also have more positive romantic
experiences. So stated versus revealed,
it's it's all on track.
With leanness, it's a little more
complicated. Um, it does seem that women
don't prefer too lean and when you look
at the Olly Murs transformation, I would
say that the main difference before and
after, if we were to look at it like he
does look more muscular in the after,
but I would say that very likely he just
lost fat, right? Like I've I've seen
those sorts of transformations before.
Usually it's just fat loss rather than
any actual muscle gain. And so I think
that what
happened here is partially that men
looked at the photos and said wow, that
guy got jacked and then women said, oh,
you know, I don't really like that and
they're like oh, what? So you don't like
jacked guys, right? But women were
seeing that and saying oh, this guy just
like lost a lot of body fat and I don't
like men who are too lean. So women's
body fat percentage preferences from the
research we have um are a little heavier
than what the gym bros think. Well, it's
heavier than 10%,
>> It's like 15, right?
>> Yeah, it's closer to that. So in the
most recent study from Ian colleagues,
uh they used DXA images. Now DXA images
is actually there's a there's a big pro
and a big con. The the big pro is that
we know the body fat of the men
we knew the body fat percentage, right?
We actually it's not a guesstimate. The
con is that like a DXA image doesn't
look like a real man. So I think that's
a real limitation of the study. Um, but
in that study it was between 13 and
14.1% body fat. So that's still pretty
lean by the way. Like you've definitely
got the kind of four pack up Visible
upper abs. But it is not as lean. Look,
this is where two different worlds
collide. If you're a bro listening to
this and you hear 14% Dude, I can walk
around at 14%. It's a piece of piss.
Like oh my god, I can have some bread.
Thank [ __ ] for that. Um, but if you're a
normal person That's pretty lean. 14% is
a hard cut away. You've got a hard cut
to do to get down to that. Um, so yeah,
I I tweeted about I sorry, I put it in
my newsletter. Um
the ideal body fat percentage is
higher than gym bros think and I think
that's true as an anchor. I think most
guys would assume that optimal body fat
for women would be 10, 10, nine maybe
even. I do think that most guys would
guess that you can get too lean, that
it's going your face is going to look
gaunt, but it wouldn't wouldn't actually
be to do with the body that
the optimal body fat percentage. But
then that being said and have somebody
like Mike Thurston for instance who at
quite lean levels of body fat still
looks quite full. Still doesn't look
very dry. One of the problems that Olly
Murs had was he had like
what I would call as opposed to skinny
fat, he had skinny lean
which is it
a slight not quite the right amount of
mass to carry that level of leanness.
And if you have a little bit more mass
underneath it, I think it can actually
make you look more healthy in that way.
And some people just don't carry
leanness that well. Some people don't
carry fatness that well. I'm somebody
who doesn't look great fat.
Um, I'm someone who looks all right
lean. I can keep going. I think the
leanest I've ever been in my life is
maybe eight, eight and a half.
>> That's extremely lean. Um, and I looked
fine. I everything got pretty much
better from that and it doesn't look,
but Olly struggled a bit more with that.
I I I mean you're making really good
points. I think that the I think that it
is I think that there I think that a lot
of gym bros would be surprised at how
lean 13% can look. Yes.
>> It really depends on how much muscle you
have to some And also where do you carry
it? People carry it in different
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> If you're carrying it in your legs and
your ass as a dude,
you're laughing. You're carrying it
around the midsection, you've got the
classic and you still have really have
visible abs.
>> Yeah, it's a really good point. I mean
when I when I read this when I read this
result and was reviewing other results,
I was spending a lot of time looking at
okay, can I see a DXA verified guy like
this is the number and this is him
shirtless and comparing it and you can
look a lot of different ways at 13 to
14% body fat. There are some guys who
look all right up to 20%, right? They
they still have, you know, visible chest
separation, that kind of thing. Um, I
would say though that most guys at 13 to
14% they've got the upper abs very
clear. Um, maybe some forearm veins,
right? Maybe like a little bit of upper
chest definition. Um, but it's not stage
ready bodybuilder by any means. Um, I
think that your point about Olly not
necessarily looking like fully healthy
at that weight, that's the key kind of
evo psych interpretation of
all of this, right?
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