The Money Expert: From $0 to Millions In 2 Years Without Any Hard Work!: Codie Sanchez | E258

Why do you think most people don't ever reach financial freedom in their lives? This is where people get it so wrong. One of the secrets to success is Cody Sanchez. She's an entrepreneur who's invested in over 100 companies, turning over millions a year. After spending 15 years on Wall Street, she's now sharing her secrets to the world on how to make money. I think that is the question everyone's asking themselves. I think every human should understand the language of money. It's not that complex. We just make it sound complex because the less people speak our language, the more we can charge them. For the first time in 25 years the richest 1% will control more than half of the world's wealth by next year. The gap is huge. This is why only one in 10 people dies wealthy. If you understand the language, you can become an expert in it, and expertise leads to a bunch of cash. But what have you come to learn about what holds us back in that moment? The people who love you, they want what's best for them, which is that you're safe, you're secure, everything's okay. My loved ones were super supportive, but they were always saying things like, "Is the grass always greener, Cody?" And so, we've become a generation of vitamin D deficient, alternative milk-drinking softies. So, I had a job I shouldn't have been at, a guy I shouldn't have been with, in a place I shouldn't live. But I was too scared. I'm not one of those entrepreneurs who just burn the bridges, I'll sleep on the couch. And so, I needed something where I could stair-step my way out of a corporate job. And then I realized this could be way bigger than what anybody else could pay me. If we zoom in on that moment, what would you recommend my first step be, Cody? First, you have to Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. 2 months ago, 74% of people that watch this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So, if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guest get. Thank you, and enjoy this episode. Cody, who are you speaking to and what is the message that you're trying to send them? I think the every man and woman. Maybe people like you and I when we were younger, before we had any zeros or businesses. And the message the message is very simple. It's that I think by and large, and maybe they could feel this inside them, too, we've slowly gone from a nation of owners or a country of owners or a world of owners to uh a nation of renters or serfs, in another word. And the idea is, what if we could take that back? And that's the whole premise of everything we do is getting people into the owner's chair, into ownership, as opposed to letting other people be the architects of their lives. And it took me way too long to do that, and so I'm hoping that it will take other people less time if we share. Give me the persona then of someone that you believe will find value in this conversation. Like, where are they are they in their life? What are they thinking day-to-day? Um what are their aspirations? Yeah, I I think there's sort of three humans that I picture. There's one that I call Working John. And um and he is basically, or she, but I just have a male avatar for this one, is sitting in a job right now that they don't really like, doing things they don't want to do, for people they don't like, and building their dream and their castle. And they're mad about it. Although, your choice to be there, but they're mad about that decision. And they want to they want a way out, but they have either golden handcuffs where they make too much money or they have responsibility, bills that have to be paid. And so they don't really feel like they have a solution except going to find like the next best, but kind of still worst, company. And then the second avatar is there's an there's an aging population that by and large in the workforce, we say, "Uh, you're over 50 or 60? Like, you're not getting as many job looks as you were before." But now we live until we're 90. So, what are they supposed to do for 30, 40 years? And I think their evolution can be also buying a business, taking over something, becoming an owner in maybe something not aggressive as aggressive as they were before. And then I think the the third avatar are humans who kind of got sold pipe dreams over the last couple years. Like, "If I buy 472 houses that pay me 100 bucks a a month profit, uh, I'll finally become financially free." Well, it takes a lot of cash to do that. Or, you know, if I have NFTs on the side, or if I go into the stock market on the side, all of which aren't rigged games exactly, but are meant to just beat inflation. And so that third group of people might like what they're doing. They just need they need something else on the side that's a little bit of a safety net cuz I don't think our safety nets will be around by the time we need them. And you've been through your own journey from the corporate world to working in finance, working as a journalist, where you are now. Which one of those avatars did you represent? Well, I was definitely a working John. So, that would have been the first one. When I was in finance, I was doing well, but I definitely felt trapped. I mean, I was all those things. I was should have been happy and content with where I was, but felt like the 60-hour work weeks were too much, and I didn't really like the culture of the company that I was working for. Um, I had a lot of respect for the CEO, but I didn't really fit. And uh but I was too scared. I'm like a little bit of a scaredy-cat. I'm not one of those entrepreneurs like our mutual friend Alex who just was like, "I'll burn the bridges. I'll sleep on the couch, you know, I'll I'll sell it all." It's just not me. It's too scary. And so I needed something where I could have like a soft landing. I could stair-step my way out of a corporate job. So, I started buying these small businesses with the idea that maybe one day they could just meet meet my costs. And then I realized, oh god, I'm thinking so small. This could be way bigger than what anybody else could pay me. But I was a working job, for sure. We zoom in on that moment cuz I think most people listening to this now can can relate to that moment of maybe hearing you speak and hearing your content online or hearing an Alex Hermosi or whatever, hearing Gary Vaynerchuk, whoever it might be, talk about starting that business, pursuing that side hustle, but there's this psychological barrier to overcome, which most of us can't overcome. We we call it fear. We say, you know, that I'm waiting for the perfect time. I don't have the confidence. If you zoom in on that, now you've started this new journey in your life where you're creating content and you're advising people on how they can pursue the paths that you've pursued it yourself. What have you come to learn about what holds us back in that moment? And the and the maybe the falseness of the stories we tell ourselves. You you described it as being a scaredy-cat. Yeah. I at least for myself, what I'll say is, you know, daughter of immigrants, um, who thought that what I had achieved was the pinnacle, you know? People that I love more than anybody in the world, and maybe that's similar for a lot of people listening, the people who love you, they want what's best for them, typically, which is that you're safe, you're secure, everything's okay. They don't really want what's {quote} best for you because that's actually the scary thing. Real growth happens when you take huge risks and you potentially fail and you realize that you're not going to die. And so I realized that my loved ones were some of the reasons that were actually holding me back. Um, super supportive, but they were always saying things like, is the grass always greener, Cody? You know, what about this next thing? Is that really going to make you happy? You know, are you sure it's not you? Is it them? And in some cases they're right. I just have that that ridiculous urge to keep growing and doing more. But that that made me jump from 1 2 3 4 5 five finance companies in like 10 years or something like that because I thought it was each it was the individual company and I didn't realize oh no, I'm just like unemployable. I want to work for myself. I'm not going to be great at being at somebody else's employee. Um but it was the stories that I heard again and again from my family because they wanted to keep me safe. Very kind, but not right for me. So in your life there there comes a moment where you make this kind of peculiar decision. When I say peculiar because most people don't make the decision to um start off-ramping from the corporate world essentially. Yeah. You you buy your first business. Right? So you're you're in a job. Yeah. And you while you're in the job you decide to buy a business. Yeah. Did you have loads of cash when you did that? No. No. No. In fact And why did you do it? What what was the what was the thought process that made you go do you know what? That's a good idea. I think it's usually triggered from from some sort of pain. Like at that time I was was fighting a little bit with the CEO of the company that I was working in and they really wanted me to they wanted me to run this business that I'd taken from zero to a couple billion in assets under management. And they wanted me to continue running it, but I started getting pressed and stuff started happening because we had had this growth and they wanted me to do it really quietly. And um not as much the CEO, but some of the other managing directors. I was by far the youngest. I was the only female. And um you know that company was wild, but they basically in many ways were like um you need to do it our way. And I was like, well, your way didn't get you to this couple billion dollars under management. Works great for you guys over here, but it didn't over there. So no, I'm going to run the business this way. And uh and so we were kind of arguing a little bit and I think I saw the writing on the wall that it wasn't my casino. They weren't my chips. I was working for somebody else. And at the end of the day, they were writing the rules, as is fair. It was their business. And I knew that at some point I was either going to get pushed out or leave. And so at that point, I started buying these businesses on the side because I wasn't sure I wanted to work for somebody ever again. I'm I'm fascinated by the first step people take because the first step seems to be the hardest. Mhm. That first step to buying that first business and you're stepping out into uncertainty and the unknown there. And that's really like that. You know, if I could give one thing to the audience is that have listened to me for the last 10 years on social media and on this podcast, it would just be the answer to taking that first step. Mhm. Like out into like you did at 29, 30 to buy that first business. Talk me Talk to me about specifically that first one. What were you looking for? Yep. What was your thesis? And um I guess how did you learn? How did you learn about buying as you call them boring businesses? Yeah. Well, I had a benefit, which is as a journalist, I sort of infiltrated finance. I'm not technically as intelligent uh you know, I'm not as I'm not a financial modeling guru. I'm not a lot of things that people are in finance. But I'm pretty decent at asking questions and then figuring out who are the right people that could get me the answers. And so what I realized pretty quickly is we were doing a bunch of deals. You know, I was doing deals that were tens of millions, hundreds of millions, and billion-dollar deals. And I don't know why it took me so long, but I realized there's no difference like materially between a billion-dollar, a hundred-million-dollar, a ten-million-dollar deal, and a one-million-dollar deal. And if that's the case, then I bet if I have a couple hundred thousand or ten thousand dollars, I could do a much smaller deal. Wouldn't I be able to do the exact same thing? So I saw behind the curtain, uh you know, like at The Wizard of Oz and realized that the wizard was actually pretty short. And because I saw that, then I just said, "Well, now we just work backwards." And just like you would buy, you know, a hundred-million-dollar condo condo unit or, you know, condo building, you could see how you could go all the way back and buy your first studio, right? It's the same thing with businesses. It's just stair-stepping real estate. And so, I, at the time, my biggest constraint was not knowledge. I knew how to do deals. It was time. You know, I was working 60-70 hours a week. And so, one of the first deals I did was a laundromat deal uh because I figured, well, you don't need somebody to run it full-time, and it was a 100K transaction, and so that wouldn't bankrupt me. And, you know, I could buy a a little business like this, and that business could keep running even while I wasn't there, and I could have an operator that could probably help me with anything that went sideways. Where did you find a laundromat to buy for 100K? Was that website? Did you know the guy or woman? No, no the guy. So, basically, what happened for my first deals, I didn't have a framework. So, it was just, hey, I do these really big deals, could I do a smaller deal? And if I could do a smaller deal, what would be the easiest small deal to do that would be the least risk? And so, at the time, I knew a guy that was running a couple of laundromats. So, I basically said to him, "Hey, if I find one for you, will you help me operate it?" And he knew how to do that. So, the very first one we had was in California. And that's one of the secrets to this is two things. First, you have to learn how to do deals, which is not really that complex. We just make it sound complex in finance because financial lingo is like the moat around how we make money, right? The less people speak our language, the more we can charge them, which is the secret. And then the second aspect was how to run a laundromat, right? Like, I don't know, machine breaks, what am I going to do? And so, then I had this guy who knew how to run these, and I could just find a deal for him, close the deal for him, and be the cash for him. Why did they sell to you? Old, you know, these are 68-year-old owners of a business that have been running this laundromat plus a bunch of other small businesses in the vicinity for 20-30 years. And so, can you imagine running your podcast for 30 years? It'd probably be fun, but by the end you might be open to selling. Now, imagine you had a laundromat for 30 years. You know, you're dealing with broken machines or there's somebody who's homeless messing around with some stuff. But at a certain point, you don't even want to continue with a profitable business. And this is where people get it so wrong. All the time on the internet, people love to tell me "No way would anybody sell a business. That business made $67,000 in profit. So, I bought it for 100k a year." Did 67,000. And people on the internet do one of two things to that. They go, "No [ __ ] way, it didn't happen." And why would somebody sell? And like, did you give them a bad deal? And the second uh group of people go, "That's a terrible deal. I'd never do that deal because you don't have enough profit in that for that to be a business not a job." So, those are the two two things. And to the first one I'd say, in the US right now, there are tens of millions of small businesses for sale that will never sell. And and I tell a story about my Uncle Eb who had a small business that was exactly that. Um that he closed down, which by the way cost you money as opposed to selling, because he had no idea his business was sellable. Um like many businesses that I had before I did this, I shut down instead of selling them. I didn't even realize that even though I was in finance. And then to the second group I'd say, you start with a small business that probably isn't the greatest business for you to own long-term, but businesses are like real estate. You can turn around and sell them after you get in the game. But I think of these businesses, I call them gateway drug businesses. They're they're the Once you learn how to do a deal, you'll you'll never see the world the same again. It will change your entire perspective on everything. You will walk in everywhere and you will realize that business is full of masochists like you and me who do this despite it being awful many times, but we love it in some way. But at some point, we're going to want to sell our thing and move on to the next. And so, everywhere around you right now, wherever you are, somebody sitting next to you wants to sell their business. And what if you could figure out how to buy that business, put in an operator in it, and then do it again and again and again? And that's the only difference between you and Warren Buffett or Blackstone or these big huge companies. Is it important to have competence in the area in the industry that you're trying to buy these small businesses in in your point of view? Not really, no. Not at all. But it helps, right? Oh, of course it helps. Um More important than anything is, it's sort of like real estate, it's really about the deal. Can you understand, can you read a balance sheet? Can you understand profit and loss, which is not that difficult to understand? And then, can you figure out how to get to the person that can get you answers? So for instance, I didn't know anything about laundromats, but I knew a guy who knew laundromats. Um often what I tell people these days is I'm a I'm more old school, like I would go knock on doors and I would shake business owners' hands, but uh you could also go to Reddit where there are uh platforms with 100,000 electricians on them. And so if you wanted to buy an HVAC company, which was which is like heating, uh air conditioning, and and often electric electricity, um I would go on there and I would try to find electricians in my local area and I would ask them questions and I would pay them for an hour consult to figure out how to run this business. I think we forget in this day and age how easy it is to get the information that we want. And so we listen to the fear of the fact that we don't know what we're doing. And I actually think that's irrational. Uh I think it's really easy for somebody to tell you why things won't work. It's actually quite hard to convince somebody that they're capable of doing something. What if I don't have 100k? You had 100k, right? Yeah. Say I'm working a job, I've saved up only $5,000. Yeah. Well, I've bought a business for $3,000. I've bought a business for $8,000, and I've bought many many many businesses for $0. And and I'm not saying this in a way that's click-baity. Will you go out right now talk to somebody tomorrow and be able to buy a business for zero dollars? Like you're going to need to do a little work. Um Just on the structuring of the deal, right? Just on the structuring of the deal. So they get paid on performance. Exactly. Or they get paid on what's called seller financing. So these, you know, you can go and most businesses, most small businesses below $10 million in revenue, 60% of them sell with some component of seller financing, which just means if, let's say, you know, somebody manages your property here. Let's say that that property manager makes 100k a year profit. They want to sell their business. You're a terrible tenant they can't handle it anymore. And they sell that business, they want to sell that business typically for two to five x profit. That's what these small businesses go for. And the the typically there aren't enough buyers. Like there's not a bunch of people running around trying to buy property management companies. So what do they do instead? Well, you would come to them and say, "All right, I'll buy out your property management company, but you're going to be my loan. I'm going to pay you a percent interest rate, plus I'm going to defer your tax burden so you pay less in taxes. Nobody likes that. And and I'm going to buy the business by giving you $300,000 with uh you know, over five years, right? So I'm going to keep a percentage of the profits and I'm going to give the rest to you. And it's not really that complex. It's really what happened in real estate before we had Zillow and Redfin and all of these sites that made it super normalized to sell real estate. The as you said a second ago, the real key here is knowing the art of the possible as it relates to deals. The way you construct your deal so that um you win. Yeah, 100%. Basically. Well, and and the I think the truth of deal making that people forget about is that it is one of the very few things where it's never a zero-sum game. So if I go to sell a stock, I hope that when I sold the stock, I sold it the right time and you bought it the wrong time, right? Like that's what we hope. And buying and selling small businesses, that doesn't have to be the case. You know, I could buy I could sell my property management company to you. You could pay me 3x profits and I could say, "But, if the company increases revenue by X amount, which I think it will with these tweaks and I kind of help you a little bit, how about you pay me 400,000 instead of 300,000?" And you would go, "Great. If you hit those metrics, no problem. That'd be an awesome deal for me." So, there's plenty of ways to make sure it's a win-win. But, to your point, this is why people are poor because nobody teaches us the language of deals. And if somebody taught us not how to negotiate our salary, that's fine, but how to negotiate for equity and ownership, the world would the whole look a whole lot different. But, that's not in the big picture's incentive. It's really good for the little guy, not so good for the big guy. The other thing when you're approaching a business and trying to get them to knowing this how to structure deal is one thing, but then there's an element of persuasion and saleswomanship. Yeah. involved in this. How important is is learning to sell and how how can we be be better sales people in your view? What is the key to being a great sales person? Cuz you must be to be buying businesses. You must be able to figure out what someone wants and present it to them. I truly believe that sales is a fallacy. I don't think sales exists. I think you find people who are already predisposed to want what you are {quote unquote} selling. And I learned that very early on from one of my mentors actually at Goldman. That you don't sell anybody on anything. You're never going to change somebody's mind and if you think I'm wrong, go try to convince a Republican to become a Democrat, right? Or a Tory to become I don't know what's the other side. Labour. Okay. Uh it doesn't really go very well usually. And so, um my belief is actually what you're looking for is just who are the people who are you're you're finding trigger moments. Like if I was to have a conversation with Stephen about selling your business, I would try I would be asking questions like, you know, "How's it going running Wow, 20 years? That's a long time." If If their answer is, "Fucking love this business. I am never selling. This is amazing." You're like, "Cool. Awesome. No problem. So lovely meet you meeting you." But if you meet the person that's like, "Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready to retire. I've got this vision of a ranch in my head out in the countryside and, you know, but I my kid doesn't want to take over the business." You're not You're not going to get them to think something different. You're purely discovering what they truly feel. And then you are going to be the person that enables them to have a retirement in a way that no government can. Like you are the retirement plan. And so, that's maybe what you need to learn is just curiosity for another human. And then you need to understand what a what a motivated seller looks like. And a motivated seller looks like somebody who's ready for their next adventure, whatever that may be. And if you can find those two things, then you find the people that actually, yes, they want what you're selling. Now, what you actually do have to convince somebody of, and I hope you're true about it, is that you are going to be a good shepherd. If you are going to be their retirement plan, you better not go broke, right? You better actually be able to take this business and run with it. And so, that is one part where you have to convince. Like, "Why should I sell this business to you, Steven? How are you going to take care of my business?" And that part really again comes down to curiosity, making sure that you're setting yourself up and the seller for success. Not rocket science. If I I'm going to play um I'm going to play the role of a 25-year-old. Okay. I'm working in a job. I'm I've got a little bit of disposal in income, but not a ton. Yeah. I'm listening to you, Cody, and I'm going, "I want some of that. You've got a holding company, right?" Yeah. "You got a fund as well?" Yeah. How much roughly the revenue of the holding company? Roughly? 70 million. 70 million. So, your holding company does about 70 million revenue. You've got a fund as well. Yep. How big's the fund? Small, 10. Okay. So, 80 million combined. Um I want to get to where you you are. But I'm currently working in a job. I'm 25 years old. I've got, I don't know, $7,000 in the bank, 7,000 pounds in the bank, whatever. What would you recommend my first step be, Cody? How do I get out of this job? Yeah. Well, the first step if you if you're going to do it like a pro, I'd say this, which is I'm not a pro. you do for a living. I do content. Perfect. So, if you do content for a living, what I'd say is don't buy a laundromat. I talk about laundromats. I actually need to change that. I need to like tell somebody I bought a different first business because it's a terrible business to buy. It just was my first one and it's very easy to understand. So, I'm like, if you can't understand quarter, machine, clothes, clean, don't buy a business, any business. Just forget you heard me talk about anything. And so, that's why I talk about laundromats. But if I was going to do it the pro way, I would say you should use your unfair advantage. And if you're in the content business, don't buy a boring business in the traditional sense. Look around you. I It's something I call my personal P&L review. So, I'd basically look at what do I spend money on already? If you're in content, you probably spend money on ad purchasing, right? You probably spend money on video production. You probably spend money on maybe you rent a a set space. Um do you have all these expenses around you? And what if you could turn one or two of those expenses into an asset, not a liability? Thing that makes you money, not a thing that costs you money. And so, you know, I did a deal back when I was doing more video production in my last company where I bought a podcast and video production company. And I did that deal basically for $0. I think I put $10,000 down for that deal that ended up doing about 300, 400,000 dollars a year because I just said, I know like five or six other people that could use your service. I'm going to like double your revenue by introducing you to these people. And I pay you, let's say, $3,000 a month now. What if we're just going to wipe that out if I can hire these other people and you're going to give me 25% of the company or whatever percentage it was. That's what I would do if I was you. So, if you're young and hungry, look around you and see what you pay for and what you currently utilize already and then try to get a percentage of that business if not buying the whole thing. And that's sort of the pro way to do it as opposed to car wash, need to go learn, totally different market. You can do the second. It's just a little bit riskier. So, I'm I'm working in content, 25 years old, $7,000 in the bank. Um I realize what you've just said and I go, you know, I'm a marketing agency. We book a lot of studios. Yeah. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to approach a studio space, try and do a deal with them, and then I'm going to send clients their way. Yeah. You could totally do that. That'd be a sweat equity deal or a rev equity deal, revenue equity deal. So, for a studio space, I mean, I think the the probably pro way to do that um would be one, you'd approach them and you'd kind of get an understanding for their business. You'd be like, how much revenue do you make? Like, how big is this? You'd figure out if you were material to their business. So, me doing 3K a year with my video production guy, I was material to his business. He was only doing, I don't know, you know, $100,000 a year or something like that. And so, if my 3K went away, that was you know, that's like uh 20% of his business right there over a yearly basis. So, if you go to a studio production company and they're like, yeah, we're doing $7 million a year and you're paying them 3K, you're like, all right, cool. Anyway, nice to chat with you. Or you could say, you know, who's the owner? How long you've been doing this? And you could dive into it. And the other side of the coin is you might find out that the owner is 70, and you become buds with the owner. And the owner loves when you come in cuz you're kind of like young, and you learn about what he does. And then you ask who's going to take over the business. And then you might say, "Hey, you know, I do this other thing, but I would love to sort of be an apprentice to you in a way, and potentially buy your business using future profits, and you can sort of like stay on, and we can stair-step our way into this. But would you be open to that? Like leaving your legacy to somebody like me?" And so you could do it that way, too. But I think it is like it goes back to kind of the the smart question you asked, which is like the two avatars are who's listening to this right now, and then that's the same question to the people listening that you're going to ask the owner. What sort of avatar is the owner? And how can you become the solution to what that avatar is looking for? How can you become the son to the father, you know? How can you become the buyer to a really anxious seller? Um And then you can get your deal done. Why do you think most people don't ever reach financial freedom in their lives? Do you think it's a psych- psychology thing, a mindset thing? Obviously, let's take, you know, the very practical elements out of the equation. So, you know, severe hardship, poverty, all of those kinds of things. But people that are in that sort of middle layer that are comfortable, why do they why do they never some of those people never really reach a point of financial freedom? I think humans defer to the paths they've seen before them. I think so often we follow in our fathers' or our mothers' footsteps. And that's why I think the internet's really powerful as you have an opportunity to now choose the family footsteps you want to follow into. Um so one I I I used to think it was just a knowledge gap, but then I I went to this event, um and I was talking to my friend about it, and she uh said that the facilitator said something really cool. It was a group of women, imagine like 40 women in a room, right? And they're there to talk about finances. And in this room, they said, "Okay, everybody close your eyes. And I want you to picture money. Picture money right now. And then I want you to turn your body into the shape you feel when you hear the word money, right?" And so, 30 women, all eyes closed, they take whatever shape. And she goes, "Now open your eyes and look around." And you know, my friend was explaining to me how most people in the room were like fetal position. They were like holding it, they were like really close, some were on the ground, you know, some were covering their eyes. So, in a room of 30 relatively successful women, their reaction was like attack, shame, guilt for money? And she was like, and you know, she she was standing there with her arms open wide, like, you know, give me the money. And when I think about my relationship with money, it's the same thing. I'm like, if I think about money, I'm like, "Yeah, it's over here." Like, my hands are up. Like, I am here for it. But most people have this weird emotional attachment to money. And so, I used to think that people on the internet like, not I like Tony Robbins, but like Tony Robbins or whatever who do a lot of the motivational stuff, I kind of didn't get it. I'm like, "Just give me the tactics. Skip the Skip the other thing." And then I realized that most people have really bad stories that they tell themselves about money. And you could tell, I mean, it'd be interesting in your next speech, you could try it. I tried it at one of mine, same thing. Men and women holding each other like they're being beaten when somebody talks about money. The average human feels that way. And so, I think it it all comes down to what we believe, which is hard for somebody in finance like me to say, you know? Typically, I would think, well, if you knew what to do, you could just do it. But that's not the case. It's you have to believe that you can do it. And the only way I can figure out to get more people to believe that they can do it is to show more people who are super normal or in fact below average doing the damn thing. But if I had the answer to that, that'd be the million-dollar question. I read a a stat in the US that only one in 10 people dies wealthy in the US. That most people die broke and and young. And and I thought that was fascinating because we're at economic high times, like lower poverty levels than ever before. But still, most people die at least without extra cash to pass on to the next generation. Why do you you think people don't reach financial freedom? Why most people die without a lot of cash? I think obviously it's a very complex topic, but I think I really resonate with the emotional psychol- psychological side of things that you described, you know? It's the same reason why most people don't go to the gym or eat healthy. Money is inherently emotional. When I was when I had no money, I was reckless with money. Right. All the gambling shops are in the areas where people don't have money. Um there's something deeply psychological about money. So I would if I when I was working in those call centers, if I got paid a thousand pounds at the end of the month, I would the same day go and buy a TV or an Xbox, like a PlayStation for about 6-700 pounds. I would not pay my rent to go and buy that PlayStation. And sometimes I'd buy the PlayStation without having a TV. There was just something psychologically attached to the I don't know the dopamine rush or the sense of self-worth that I got from owning the shiny thing. When I got money, my relationship with money became amazing. Yeah. I I stopped buying designer things. I stopped wasting it. I didn't feel a need to to show off or buy, you know, Rolexes or whatever. So I was able to preserve wealth more. There's a really interesting relationship with money on both ends of the spectrum. When when you have less of of it's hard it's often because of certain psychological things in certain people, I was one of them, it's harder to hold on to. When you have more of it, it feels easier to hoard and people, you know, and more broadly on the on the subject of um why people don't reach financial freedom, I think the modern world tells us that we can get rich quick. Yeah. And when you think about how people build wealth, we think about the Warren Buffett's of the world, it's so boring and slow. And no, who's going to buy that book? Yeah, it's so true. You know, get be a billionaire at 87. I [ __ ] what? I'm not going to be able to, you know, dance in the nightclub at 87. So, why do I want a billion then? That's why the NFT thing and the crypto scam, this whatever, is also appealing to people. Yeah. Cuz it's quick. Yeah, it's true. Well, you know what's I actually um was reading somewhere a story about in South Africa in the slums, um they have the highest concentration of the largest televisions uh per square foot of the the houses. So, that you you if you've been there and and I've actually never been, so I can't validate, but you will see very small little rooms with huge televisions. And and I thought that was interesting. Um but it actually makes sense cuz maybe it comes down to a belief that people don't think they're ever going to get out. And so, they think the only chance of getting out is going into whatever the short-term pleasure is. It's like if you never think you're going to escape your everyday reality, which is actually kind of miserable, then you're going to buy the PlayStation because why wouldn't you? Why would you save and try to get out when you've never seen anybody else get out? But what does the play the PlayStation mean so much more to you in that moment than a PlayStation? It means it's your it's self-worth. Yeah. It's one tiny token that you are successful. Yeah. That you can show your friends or that you can just even fear and self-esteem. It's so much more than a PlayStation. The thing that invalidates you in this case money will be the thing that has the greatest chance of making you feel valid. And so if if in my house the lack of money was always the thing that caused my shame. So the minute I got any of it, I would overcompensate by trying to buy some [ __ ] to show people. Yeah. Um and then when I had loads of it I didn't give a [ __ ] like uh Yeah, that's true. That void was almost filled. So Yeah, it's true. I also think it's hard. I mean I remember many times where uh you know, I remember checking accounts always being overdrawn. And uh and you know, seeing the little negative pin on my you know, email and and cell phone that you couldn't there there was nothing else in there. You know, when I was in college and trying to figure it out before I made any money. I think I made like 37K in my first job out of college. Um so I definitely remember all that. But I think if you can have this belief and you can get around other humans who have have had success or are striving for success your aperture just opens in a different way. And then maybe the commercials and the ads and the things that make you feel like you want to buy all the everyday stuff go away. Like I don't really like I kind of viscerally get mad when I see people who have wealth showing images of them in their Bentleys or Rolls Royces or I mean I have a nice watch but like you don't see me show that [ __ ] anywhere. I like when people are show themselves in their private planes or whatever. I just think they're missing the whole boat. And then what they're doing is they're perpetuating the PlayStation situation. They're doing it again and again and they're doing it because it doesn't make them happy anymore to have it. That's not enough. I have to show a bunch of people I got it. And what they should actually be showing is man, I just invested in my first stock. That's [ __ ] cool. Look at my I mean if you look at my stuff it's like I have laundromats and car washes behind me all the time in them. Cuz that's the stuff that you should try to strive for. You can actually pass it down. It can pay you back. You can buy as many PlayStations as you want. But I think to your point, the other thing is we are all You know, have you ever felt um like when you're around other people and uh and they're sort of negative or they want to talk about people the whole time, and like how that energy feels? And that's like it's draining, right? Even if you kind of get caught up in it, it's fun for a second, at the end you're like, "Fuck, that was a I feel kind of gross for having that convo." I think it's the same with ads and stuff that we take into us. And so, they're basically creating our stories for us in social media by showing all this fancy stuff, and then we start to have this memetic desire, this external desire and belief that we actually that we want it, that we need it, but we don't. We're just becoming a replica of the people that we're surrounding ourselves with, which are now social media. There's no Even growing up, there's no laundromats in 50 Cent videos. Yeah, there should be. It's all sports cars and mansions and stuff. So, that was my North Star as a young black man. It was like, "How do I get a mansion and a sport sports car?" And in the first page of my diary at 18 years old, it says four things I want to achieve before I'm 25. Bear in mind, I was shoplifting pizzas at the time, and I was um a university dropout not speaking to my parents with two CCJs, which is like when the the court is coming for you. Oh. For debts. I wrote um a Range Rover Sport will be my first car. Didn't have a driving license till I was 23. Um I'll make a million pounds. I'll I'll work on my body image, again, cuz I was a very small kid. Uh and I'll get a girlfriend. Those are my four goals in life, and they were totally influenced by the outside world. That's why my book is called Happy Sexy Millionaire, because I thought if I became a sexy millionaire, then I would become everything I needed to be. And I was so wrong. I mean, Yeah. I don't regret the decisions I made, because you can't really in hindsight, but um I wish I had better influences, to say the least. Yeah. I mean, I think that's why content is so important. You know, I think about I think about Warren Buffett's annual shareholders meeting, right? Which you can go and attend if you if you own stock, and you don't have to own much of it. Um and I think, you know, people made fun of me when I started creating content online, cuz they were like, "Oh, big, successful private equity person, now you're taking your own money, and if you really had companies that made $80 million in revenue, that means they're, you know, you're worth a couple hundred million bucks. Uh and if that's the case, why would you be making Instagrams and TikToks? And that doesn't make much sense, right?" And my reaction at the time was, I think we should make it just as entertaining talking about stuff that makes us money as we do stuff that costs us money. I think probably that'd be good. And if we could do that, that'd be a worthy mission, and also it'd be fun to try to do it. I don't know if we could do it, but um yeah, maybe the next rap videos, I mean, and now, now for honestly, my favorite deals to break down are the celebrity deals, because they're fascinating. Like, The Rock, have you ever looked at The Rock's content from a uh product perspective? Brilliant. So, The Rock, if you look at his content, so let's just talk Instagram. If you go to The Rock's Instagram, I want you to count how many pieces of content he has that have product placement in them of companies he owns. And the answer is close to 80%. So, almost every single post The Rock does is an ad. But what do we really see? We see sexy tequila, we see abs, we see him with his beautiful wife. Like, we see these other things, but we don't realize that every single one of them is an ad. And so, what if we could flip that around? Like, wouldn't it be cool if The Rock talked about the deals he did, too? And how he did that? Now, he goes back, and he talks about how he stole stickers bar, similar to you with with pizza. Um but I think even for celebrities, they don't want to talk about the deals that they did. They just want to talk about all the money that they have. It almost seems like faux pas somehow to talk about the deals and how good at deal making they are. Like, Reese Witherspoon, billionaire now. Why? Because Reese Witherspoon, little sweet Susie Sunshine in pink, Basically took a book club and said to authors, I'll give you part of my platform for you to talk about your book because I'm lovely. It's free. You're going to sell a bunch of books. Tiny insignificant detail. I'd like the future rights to uh turn your book into a movie and I'll pay you some sum or I'll have a right of first refusal aka I have I get the right to buy it before anybody else and I'll pay you then for it. Author goes, amazing. Reese, of course. Perfect. They come on. Reese basically AB tests, so tests out which books do best, and depending on which books do best, uh Reese bought Reese buys their movie rights and makes movies that create, you know, tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. But Reese doesn't tell that story. Reese tells the Suzy Sunshine story of her selling the books. I think the other story's more interesting and more people can learn from it. So when I hear these deals and when I see these big success stories, we've got Kylie, we've got the Rihannas of the world, we've got Ryan Reynolds, The Rock, Reese Witherspoon. The question that we must always be asking ourselves, or I I certainly ask it is, was that them? Or did they just have a great advisor? A financial advisor that came along at some point and went, by the way, you do like this Yeah. and you'll make [ __ ] shitloads. Yeah. Well, my question is, who cares? But want to know the secret sauce. Yeah. And so she's none of them are that dumb where they don't know what the deal was, right? Like even if somebody was smarter than them, which could be Reese may have a genius behind her, The Rock too, probably Dany Garcia, his wife, his manager. Kylie, yeah, the the goat, you know, which is weird to say about the Kardashians, but you know, behind them, the mom, for sure. But they're, you know, they're smart enough. When you create that much wealth and you do it continuously multiple times like Reese has done with Draper James, too, you definitely know what's going on. So I think like sharing those secrets would be cool. But that's usually where people go. People go, "Well, they're famous, so it's easy for them." Or, you know, "Who did the deal?" And I'm like, "Yeah, maybe it's Scooter Braun behind the scenes, but I'd like I'd like to know how they structured that." The reason they don't tell you there is because it feels like it's the opposite of the authenticity that they're trying to maintain. So, if they came out and went, "Listen, the way that we did you on that whiskey deal, I got 50%. My job was to post it with the abs every week, and you guys [ __ ] bought it, and now it's worth a billion dollars." How is the how-to? They can't do that deal again because everything they touch I'm going to think, "Ah, it's a deal." Well, I think you could do it in a way that was real. Like, you could be like, "We did this business, and maybe you could give some of it away." Like, you could be like, you know, "If If The Rock makes a billion dollars off of Teremana, couldn't he then say, 'We would never have done a billion-dollar deal unless you guys bought it. And because you bought it, we're going to give you some equity. We're going to allow people to buy into equity at the company at a lower valuation and have access to it.'" I mean, that's kind of what venture capital and crowdfunding does, right? So, I mean, they can do whatever they want to do, but I think there's so many ways to get around it. And maybe there's nothing but downside because people these days get mad when people make money, and so maybe people would hate that. But, God, I think it'd make a lot more humans rich for people to be honest about how they got there, you know? I reflect as you were speaking on a conversation I had with a cab driver in the UK. He said to me, "You're all you're that Diary of a CEO guy. I listen to your podcast in the cabs, and you know, I'm I'm working three jobs. This is one of them, and I'm trying to What he was saying was, "I'm trying to find financial freedom. I'm working this cab job. Um I'm doing this other little thing on the side, but I'm trying to find the way. I'm trying to find the way to get out of this life into And he was scrambling around. He was saying to me, "You know, my friend does some stuff in Africa and in Ethiopia, and he's got some things there with property, so I might go there, and there's this other thing I might do. Those people, those are the ones that I'm trying to speak to you today. Those ones that are like looking for the way out. Mhm. Well, first of all, cab drivers and Uber drivers are my people. Yeah. I always them. Yeah, I always chat with them. Well, and they always listen to my stuff because they know small business. Like they have a friend that owns a laundromat. Or they have a friend that works inside of a car wash or owns a car wash. These are like blue-collar businesses. Mhm. Um but usually what I would say to them is something I actually said to one of the guys that's with me today. I'd say, try to break your frame entirely. Most people look for individual next tactics. So, they're like, what can I do over the next 1 2 or 3 years to get here? One thing I think is really helpful to do is say, okay, you have a 3-year goal. Break the frame. How could you achieve that goal in 6 months? What would be something so different, so out of the box, so big that the goal that was going to take you 3 to 6 years is now going to take you 6 months. And I want you to spend some time on that. Spend a week, spend a weekend deeply thinking about that idea. Because what you're going to do is you're going to come up with ideas for the person that could be the impetus for your financial freedom. Or for the business risk that's super smart, but you haven't been wanting to take it. And I think most people, they like they wade in the shallows of life and you cannot have massive change by going shallow. And so, I like to say when people want to an answer, I like to answer ask them a question because I think they know. I think they know deep down inside, but they get scared just like I did. And so, they wait years to do the thing that they knew they should have done earlier. And I don't think you need a guru or a podcast to tell you that. I think you've got to break your frame and say, I'm super capable. If I was going to do this crazy thing in 6 months, if anything was possible, if I really believed in myself, what could I do? Who could I go to that could make an unfair advantage for me? And I do think that book, Who Not How, people usually read it as a leaders because it's a lot about hiring, but I think it's actually about life. And I think usually your answer to freedom is a who, not a how. Uh because often for hustlers and people who are going to work hard, you know one or two people who are very wealthy or who run big businesses. There are a few people in your ecosystem that you could go to and become their hustler for them. And that can lead to fantastic financial reward because most people are not relentless in the pursuit of the things that they want. If you can be relentless, you can accomplish way more than the average person. And most of us you you used the phrase earlier on in this conversation which really stuck with me because I've used this phrase with my friends over and over again. You said you got to see behind the curtain. And I remember the first moment in my life where I really felt like I got to see behind a curtain that I didn't even know was there. For anyone listening to this podcast, there's a curtain on my right. For anyone watching, you can see the curtain on my right. Behind that curtain there is actually a room in there. And there's actually another studio in there where we record some content. It's kind of like a standing up studio. We've got some backdrops and stuff like that. But the analogy that I'd give you is in life, you never know how many other rooms there are behind the wall. And there was a point in my life where I started understanding deals and the public markets and how certain high net worth individuals were playing what I call money games. They were basically not doing much work, but they understood the laws of money, so they could buy things at an arbitrage or flip things at an arbitrage and make put them on the public markets and all of these crazy money games that no one had ever told me about in life. I thought it The way you build wealth is by working. And these [ __ ] the richest people I know do very little working and they do a lot of money games. And they live behind in curtain that I didn't even know was there. Um and I was thinking about the cab driver there. There's so many What is behind the curtain? The behind the curtain is a bunch of information. That's essentially what it is, you know, a bunch of people that have a bunch of information. What I might say to that cab driver is like, "Who can take you behind the curtain? Even if you have to go get a [ __ ] job for 6 months?" Yep. Like you were alluding to it there, like is there a a guy or a woman that I could go just shadow, just make the [ __ ] tea and get behind the curtain and figure out how they do it? Yep. Like if you wanted to be the best podcast in the world or you wanted to be a good podcaster, you can go ask Joe Rogan if you can go clean the floors. 100%. I mean? A lot of people don't want to want to do that. They want to work their way there, but so much in life is about information, right? And the information you you don't even know that you don't have. Oh, yeah. When did you see behind the curtain? Well, you worked in finance, that's unfair. Yeah. I think I think it is a hack. Um I saw behind the curtain for the first time when I had managers and bosses who were making tens of millions of dollars a year and I realized how little they worked, like you said, but also how average they were. You know, I saw these largely, you know, middle-aged dudes who um were no more impressive than I was and they were crushing it. And instead of having envy or hate for that, I was super curious. I'm like, "Huh. This guy can do it. That means I can do it." And I think that's a huge unlock, actually. I was talking with another friend the other week and I think one of the secrets to success might be when you see somebody who has more, who is doing better, who has more money, realizing that means that you can get it as opposed to I hate them because they have it. If you can flip that mindset, on the other side of that lives nothing but opportunity. And and it keeps I keep finding new rooms in the house, new curtains behind it. And I'm not sure that will ever stop. I mean, I was talking to my friend Bill Perkins the other day who's a hedge fund manager. And Bill um is very successful, huge, you know, compound house we're walking around at. I'm like, this place is pretty nice. And uh and he said to me, "Cody, um you know, do you think that you because you've been around small business for so long, small has infected your thinking?" And I was like, "Oh God." You know, I don't [ __ ] I don't know. And and but then I realized to him it had because he's got way more zeros than I do. And so like those zeros become unlocks to the curtain. I mean, the the other day I was flying home yesterday or flying here yesterday and I sat next to Geoffrey Kent, the CEO and founder of Abercrombie & Kent. And he built that business up to multiple billions of dollars before selling it. He uh played polo with the king, is quite close with King Charles and um you know, uh also has traveled the world, came from nothing in South Africa, was in a town in South Africa where there are only 100 white people, which is fascinating. Um like mostly was barefoot all throughout his childhood um and created the luxury travel market essentially. And I was just sitting next to him on on the airplane and I kind of looked at his watch and I was like, "That's a nice watch." And I sort of looked at his mannerisms and I was like, "I just have a feeling this guy is worth a lot of money." And so I started chatting with him. I just said, you know, "Hi. Like, I'm Cody. Um you know, why were you in town? What were you doing in Cannes?" And um he lives now in Monaco. And what I thought was so interesting is when I talked to him, I said, "What do you think the secret is? Like, you're a billionaire. Like, what is that? How how do you become that?" And he said there's really one ingredient to success. And that ingredient is the thing that everybody has but everybody wastes. time. Time. He's like, I ran my company for 61 years. 61 years running one company. He goes, can you imagine what the compounding looks like in 61 years focused on one thing? He goes, this generation cannot imagine. And and then we went a little deeper and I said, you know, what do you think's the biggest difference between entrepreneurs today and entrepreneurs when you were really in the game? Cuz he's in his 80s now. And he said, well, back then, we we were explorers of the only frontier that still existed, which was business. You know, they were the the privateers asking money for the king and queen to buy a ship to go to the to the new land, right? Except he was doing it in a business sense. He went to China in '76 and was the first person to open up the Chinese market to travel. You know, he uh broke so many bones uh playing polo that he had to retire at a young age. Like they were hard men. And I think about it with um with with us today, I think that we've become a generation of vitamin D deficient uh Allbirds-wearing uh computer-programming alternative-milk-drinking softies in many ways. And some of my most successful friends who are worth so much monetarily, their health is not very strong, they don't adventure, and they don't have true difficulty. And I think that's the difference between his generation and ours and between true success and not is this idea that I'm sort of playing with like a third-degree human, somebody who has a strong mind, a strong bank account, a strong body. Those three things all together. And where we don't just take other people's risk, meaning take other people's money to run our business, but we we take the risk ourselves. And I think his generation really did many things wrong, I don't want to glorify it, but I think they did that right. And how much more interesting is it to do these big huge things? And maybe if you do that, you break the frame entirely. Um and I every time I meet with a billionaire, my mind just kind of it expands a little bit more. And I think it's the same way like the first time you met like my parents weren't millionaires when I was growing up. So, the first time I met a millionaire, I thought, "Whoa. Like this is a What is this magic land?" You know, this person has so much money they don't know what to do with it. And then you meet the first decamillionaire, and then you meet the first hundred millionaire. And at each level, not that we want to worship money or that money that is all there is, but it is a scoreboard for a game that a lot of people are playing in this society. And I think it's interesting to try to get in those rooms. And these days, those rooms are open, you know? Back when we were first doing our businesses, a billionaire didn't write a book, or do a podcast. or do a podcast. Or tweet. Or go shake your hand at a conference. That was unheard of. And now they're all around. What have you noticed in billionaires? What's the trend? You know, people I've met a quite a lot of billionaires now, and there tends to be some similarities. Yeah. They all get there in different by different routes and different paths, but similarities in character and philosophy. Yeah. One is I've found most billionaires I've met have a mission so big it dwarfs the pain that comes with building. Because I do think it's more comfortable by and large. It's more It's like the low dull pain is being in a job. You know, that's like kind of like having a little ache constantly being in a job. Being uh an owner, an entrepreneur, or trying to strive for billionaire status is a roller coaster ride of extreme pain at some points, or maybe you'd say extreme pain at some points, extreme pleasure. and you you kind of go like this, right? You have to be able to wade through that. And so, I find that most of them are the opposite of what I thought they'd be. I thought they'd just be like Scrooge McDuck like swimming around in their riches. They'd be kind of shallow. Maybe, you know, maybe they'd be super self-interested. They'd only be focused on their own thing. They wouldn't be nice. I wouldn't want to meet them. And actually, what I find, they're This is going to sound like a gross generalization, but most of them really want to help you up when they realize that you're hungry. Like when they see the hunger paired with the ability and willingness to take action, they want to help you. It's so rare. Like if you're listening and you have that desire, but you actually do the hard things, you're rare. You're actually really rare. Cuz everybody says they want it, but nobody really wants to do it. I mean, I knew I had to fire one of my employees back in the day, which made me really sad. The second that that person told me that they had a bunch of debt, uh they were working in the business with me, obviously. They had a bunch of upside in the business, but they decided to take some of their cash and they were going to invest in a day day trading uh thing in the stock market. And I said, "I really don't think you should do that. I think if you want to take that cash and buy a business, we should talk about that. I can help you. Um if you want to focus more on a secondary business that increases your income, but if you want to day trade, what you're telling me is that you want to get rich fast and you want to speculate. That you want to get lucky, you don't want to earn it." And anyway, they kind of laughed and then they did the thing. And that was in that moment I knew you don't have what it takes at this level. Maybe you could change, but if you're going to make that decision now, you're telling me you're a short-term player. And long-term games with long-term people like Naval Ravikant said is the goal. So, that's what billionaires have. They think long-term. I was actually just talking with a member of my team on the taxi on the way over here. And there's a close to a billionaire that I've become friends with here. And I was like, "Why do you think he's inviting us to do this stuff? You know who this is?" And um And I was like, "I'm not a big enough name for this. Like, there are other people, you know, what's the thought here?" And then what I think I realized is that this guy is taking a bet that I might keep growing my social platform and I might keep spending on it and in two to three to five years, I might be a really big name. And because he associates with me now, when he needs something in two to three to five years, I'll be really big and he'll have a like a remember when moment here. And he could go get a Daymond John, right? And pay to do something with a Daymond John, but then he doesn't have the remember when moment cuz Daymond's already at the top, right? And so that billionaire, almost billionaire, is thinking three to five years out with a potential call option, aka a maybe possibility. How often do we do that? I don't even do that enough. And so that's where I think they're different. It's just this different scope because probably they see many curtains. With that long-term view, they want to water some seeds, right? Mhm. I I can totally relate to that. I've often said been perplexed in my life by why extremely rich people wanted to give me a hand. Right. Especially when I was like 18. Kid with an idea, all the enthusiasm in the world, you know, but mhm, you know? don't trust it, right? Like It was so weird. Yeah. I've I've described it as bit being so unusual over and over again every year for the last 10 years that when I was 18, 19 years old and I stood on those stages and I went around again stealing the Chicago Town pizzas in my spare time to feed myself, but all of these really successful people wanted to give me a hand. Like wanted to introduce me to someone, you know, give invest in my business even though I had no credentials. They just saw something in me that I never understood. I That would be an interesting thing to try to break down. What is it that you see in another human? I mean one of the things that comes to mind for me is how many people reach out to you Every single day. A DM, you know, I'd love to meet you Steven. Could you help me with this? Could you I would get a guess a lot. None. I'm joking. I was going to say that seems like that doesn't track, but okay. So probably a lot. But what I found is interesting is in the beginning when I was starting to be a little public, I would respond to almost all of them. Almost every single one I would respond, but I would respond like this. I would say happy to help, read this book, uh and then do XYZ thing for me. Something very small. I'm like, read this book first, do this small thing. Do you know how many people did that? [ __ ] all. None. [ __ ] all. That's a great saying. I'm going to use that. [ __ ] all. Not a single person actually did that. And then if you compare that with I think I've hired five team members now who all reached out to me with value. They gave right away. One of them did this a deep analysis on my business. Another one basically wrote up this whole piece like she was me. Um and it was incredible. And for those individuals who actually asked nothing of me, I gave them a job and opportunity and many of them make six figures plus. And so there might be a secret there that just the humans who do are the ones who follow up. The The DM tells me everything I need to know about the person. Yeah. And I I can give you every example of every DM that I ever get and how I filter them. How I know from the first DM whether they are someone that I should be connecting with. Let me give you the one side of the spectrum. The one side of the spectrum which I often get is any jobs going? In that you've told me everything I need to know because not only could you have checked if we had jobs available on our many websites where we list our vacancies, you didn't even have enough effort to like go check out the job site. Um didn't say hello, poorly structured message. Um you think that we hire over DM on the basis of no pitch at all. That's the extreme example, but it happens. You wouldn't believe I will get any jobs going once a day without fail on one of my inboxes. And sometimes and I've never said this before, on the very rare occasion, I'm saying once a year, I'll click on the person's profile and I'll care about them so much that I'll send them a voice note. So cuz I I look I click on their profile. I remember this one kid and he kind of looked like me. Oh, yeah. And he was a young kid and I remember thinking, I really, you know, I could just ignore it. It's the easy thing to do. The hard thing to do was to try and give them some feedback on like, "Please don't do that to more people. Please don't send them any jobs going?" question mark. So I remember sending one particular kid like a voice note saying like, "Right, listen, buddy. I'm on your side here. Here's some advice. Um And then on the extreme end, the good end. happened with that? What happened? response was he would he he was thankful. Oh, that's good. But when he responded, I realized why he was the type of person that would send any jobs going. Maybe a bit of a maturity issue there. Sure. And then on the other end, you have the perfect reach out where someone realizes that they can't give you what they're asking to take from you. So someone wants maybe an hour of your time. They know they can't give you anything worth an hour. They can't give me 50k. They can't nothing. Nothing they can give me worth that hour of my time. But they do two three things, maybe. The first is they realize that. And so they realize that they should offer something of value. Even I'm not I'm never going to take it. They but the gesture itself, it's like someone pulling out their card to pay. The gesture itself matters. It does. The third thing is they realize the world that I live in and that I have no time and they acknowledge that. So they might say, "Listen, you get thousands of messages like this. Um I know how busy you are. So just by them saying that, I go, "Okay, you understand." Yeah. Could I could I just sit? So I see it as an equation. Ask for as little as possible and give whatever you can. Could I just sit in the room one day when you work means a lot to me. The third point there is research the person because that's a huge show of care. I know you're a big Manchester United fan. I know your dog's called Pablo. In exchange, I will I don't know, [ __ ] I will I've made this jacket for Pablo. I've so knit myself. If someone said that to me and people are going to do this now. Pablo does not need a jacket. We're coming into summer. He likes being naked. Um but just showing you you made an effort. Oh my god, it's the keys to my heart. Yeah, it's true. Um and then ego's a great thing as well. Everyone has an ego. So just acknowledging you've you've done your research on someone is another huge way. Yeah. And I think the sneak, too, if you're listening, is like skip the famous people. They get enough. Like forget it. Like yeah, just skip them all, you know, even like sort of famous people. Like skip all that and go to the people with money because often they're quiet. People can't find them. They don't get a lot of reach out. And so if I was young and hungry, I would skip the flash, skip the the Bentley's, skip the Rolexes, skip the fame, and I would go straight to like who's the richest sprinkler owner you know. Like who's the guy on your block that has the biggest house that does something that sounds so boring to you You also learn the most from like the level like closest to you. And if you can kind of like level up a little bit, you know, if you go from you right now to billionaire and billionaire goes, "The thing is you got to work hard, kid." You're like, "Fuck, I don't know what that means." You know, but if if you go to the next person and you're like, "No, the thing is you have to send this exact email, which is what I sent to this person." They're so much closer to your climb, you know, they remember the steps. Um And they want to men- they want someone to men- mentor. They do. Yeah. They'd be most flattered by you know that I have 300 sprinklers around London. Like they would be blown away by someone taking such amount of effort and care to research them. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, and they probably had to do really interesting things to create their wealth that weren't single events. You know, if you reach out to somebody who is now I know about the show on Love Island, like what are they going to teach you? Like, yeah kid, be charismatic, kind of hot, and get on a TV show, right? form. Yeah, exactly. Like, that's not okay. And then have a bunch of money and get famous. Uh but if you reach out to somebody who built a toilet business here, like that's there's probably a lot they had to do continuously over time that you could learn from. But it's not that sexy, so people don't give a [ __ ] A quick word on Huel. As you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast, and I'm an investor in the company. And I have to say, it's moments like this in my life where I'm extremely busy, and I'm flying all over the place, and I'm recording TV shows, and I'm recording shows in America, and here in the UK, that Huel is a necessity in my life. I'm someone that regardless of external circumstances or professional demands, wants to stay healthy and nutritionally complete. And that's exactly where Huel fits in my life. It's enabled me to get all of the vitamins and minerals and nutrients that I need in my diet to be aligned with my health goals, while also not dropping the ball on my professional goals, because it's convenient, and because I can get it online, in Tesco, in supermarkets all over the country. If you're one of those people that hasn't yet tried Huel, or you have before, but for whatever reason you're not a Huel consumer right now, I would highly recommend giving Huel a go. And Tesco have now increased their listings with Huel, so you can now get the RTD, ready to drink, in Tesco Expresses all across the UK. Why is it important for you now, the last 2 years you've started making content? Why is it Why do you think everybody should make content? What are all the upsides you've seen in your life? Some of the unexpected ones, too, please, that have resulted from you becoming a content creator. Mhm. What's the most unexpected one? I wanted every single person that I wanted to reach out to to pick up my phone call. Like, I don't ever want to be the person standing in line at the club. I want to own the club. I want to get the invite. I'm actually another good example. I was just with my friends in Cannes, and they were like, "Let's try to get into this party or this party." I'm like, "I was invited to this one. I'm going to go to this one." Because I don't like doing the hustling to try to get into the I don't like it. I've never liked it. It's probably a Like, I should get better at it. I should get over myself. Who cares? But, I was like, "I'm not going to try to like finagle my way in." That's the short-term game, right? Right. And it feels gross, and it feels thirsty. I don't want to be thirsty. And so, creating content is a way for you to have unfair access in a world. Um, you know, these days, how do I become friends with billionaires? Because they watch my weird content on laundromats and car washes, and they see something in it. And so, that if if we truly believe that money is power, I think the way you get money is usually people, which is like a theme we've kept coming back to. Most people on the internet, I think, try to explain how smart they are. And what I hope to express is like, I'm not that smart. I just found people, you know? And I And I think we can all do that. So, that was one. I don't I don't want to be standing in line in the club trying to like finagle my way in. I want to find that What's the What's the back door that nobody's talking about where they invite you into it? That's one. You know, the second is Let's pause on that. Yeah. Cuz I think that's it's that's not just a nightclub analogy. That's That is a philosophy towards every facet of your life, being the magnet or the peacock instead of the door-to-door sales person. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like, even all my companies have grown on this basis. All of my companies have grown on the basis. This is maybe my biggest One of my least shared business secrets is that all of my companies don't have outbound sales teams because we make content, and we know I know that 99% of my competitors are going to go the door-to-door salesman route. They're going to go networker events. You will In the last 10 years, you have never seen me swanning around in a network event. Content is networking. Yeah, I agree. I You will never catch me. I I won't have a business card. I'm not going to hand it to you. I won't even be there. On stage, out the back meet people. Hello. Hello. Hello. Out the back door. Same. Straight back onto LinkedIn Yeah. to start making content. People don't realize that and it's much easier. It's a much more sustainable, more cost-efficient long-term strategy if you know how to do it. Yeah. Well, I mean, and if you actually want to see me like sweat, it would be having to go Small talk. network, small talk, like oh god, I want to die. Um and I had to do sales for so long in finance. You know, finance is just all sales. We used to at Goldman, we had like a spreadsheet that they would track every single day how many cold calls you made when we were trying to sell a deal. And um it was awful. You know, I remember one time I was like pretending like I understood golf. And so I'm like, oh, that's great. Like how was How was the game yesterday? Did you Did you get the goal? And they were like, what the [ __ ] you talking about? You know, I don't know anything about it. Miserable. Um It's like a fishing rod versus a net, isn't it? Like the fishing rod can only catch one fish. Yeah, it's true. I throw that [ __ ] net out, which is making a banging video about the subject matter of the industry, I could catch 300 fish. That's exactly right. same amount of time. Yeah. I mean, it's push versus pull. Yeah. Do you want to have Do you want to pull people to you? Or do you want to have to push and, you know, scream and what and I I I just I'm not interested in that. So, that's why I think content's so so powerful. The other thing about content is you find your humans. I mean, it can get it can get a little lonely, you know, having built a bunch of stuff and had some success. And I've had many times where over the years the person that I've become is not the person that the people I love loved, you know? And so I had to I had to move past that. Shared. Yeah. And it's it sounds, you know, everybody I I will often tweet things that are things to myself. It's like notes to me. And that happens to be in a tweet form. And one of them is like, you know, you get in a room with people who are smarter than you and then you leave when that's no longer the case. And that's not saying that you get rid of friends, but typically they'll get rid of you. Like when you're outgrowing people, it's uncomfortable for the people that you've outgrown. They don't like to see that you are moving forward at such a fast progression. Which I wish it wasn't that way. But you know, I had a girlfriend that I was friends with for [ __ ] you know, now I'm feeling old, but like, you know, almost 20 years, like 18 years. And when I started getting like kind of notoriety on the internet, uh I didn't realize it bothered her, you know, but it did. And so, you know, at one point she's like, "You're posting about all your other friends and not me." And I was like, "Oh, I only post business stuff. You know, I didn't I didn't My parents aren't on There's no personal stuff on there. I keep that pretty private. So, I didn't realize that was important to you." And this was a rift that just like never healed. And so, I think that happens continuously, but I like contact cuz then I find the humans who actually want you to win. Who like get super inspired by that. And when you find those people, I think it's worth more than the winnings. Amen. There is a shedding. People don't talk about this enough that when you start putting yourself out there, especially when you start becoming a quote-unquote thought leader, Yeah. the people that knew you before look at you and think, "Who the [ __ ] does he think he is? You think you're You think you're Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Steve?" Yeah. Like come back down here with us. Right. You know? That must have happened to you in a big way. Yeah, I think definitely. I almost think of my life as being in school, leaving to go to university, dropping out of university, being a being pretty much alone, and having a chance to reinvent myself, and then emerging as who I really was. Yeah. And um I have no current friends that from school still. Well, no one that I speak to from my school days. And I have no one really even from that university phase. Everybody has been since because you know, this is what I'm into, and so it's a new person to resonate with or not resonate with, so It's It's I think that's actually very, very true. I think can't like if you had friends that were super excited for you still at this point and were curious and growing and they don't have to be monetarily growing. It could be totally different. They could be obsessed with MMA and all they want to do is is do jujitsu, but that's that's their area of of expertise. You would you would respect that and value that and you guys could stay friends. But what typically happens is when you grow a lot, it's this it's like holding a mirror in front of somebody else and saying all the time, "Why aren't you doing the things that you can and the things that you could be capable of?" And when people see that mirror nonstop, they start to look at you and think, "I don't like what I'm looking at." And so I've I've really had to come to terms with that, too. What my path is is not perfect, it's not right. I mean, sometimes don't you wish you could just like actually Netflix and chill? Like you didn't want to achieve all the time? I certainly do. I'm addicted to achieving. I love it. I wish I could slow down sometimes. There's a big difference here, actually, because you said you started on this path at 30. Yeah. So maybe the reason I didn't experience it as much is I started at 18. Ah. I hadn't built a career and I hadn't built social circles around me when I started to make content and started these businesses and started, you know, talking on the TV about business and whatever else. So I didn't have as much to shed, as much of a built-up identity to shed. Oh, good point. But I do I meet people all the time that are, you know, 40, 50 that are thinking about making an identity pivot that are like trapped by the identity and social circle they've built Yeah. and the expectations that comes with that. It's a good point. Yeah. It's harder the the bigger the walls you've built in terms of identity and the more established your identity is. I think that's a really good point. Yeah. I mean, I think I had to get divorced, quit a job, move a city, uh and change a lot of things that weren't who I felt like I was. Are you happy now? Way happier now. Yeah. But, you know, it's a miserable thing leaving another human behind, you know? Like um you know, I don't I don't wish divorce on anybody. I don't like whenever I meet somebody who's divorced, I always say, "I'm sorry and congratulations." Because it's kind of both. Um Was your decision? It was my decision. Yeah. We just wanted different lives, you know? He He was very happy in a white picket fence country club life and uh wanted a couple kids and wanted to stay really locally based and kind of wanted me to not work. And so, when I thought about my life, I was like, "I want to live all around the world. And I want to build something so big that I can't sleep because I need to create it." And and I want to leave a legacy that is not um managing director at a private equity firm. Um and I'm not ready for kids. And and I'm not sure I want to have kids with you. And he really wanted me to change. And I'm not sure that we should ever try to change somebody that we're with. There's going to be thousands of people that have heard you say what you just said and think, "Fuck, that's me." Yeah. I'm in that job with that partner in that city and I just know I'm unhappy. Yeah. I can just feel it. There's this like sense of you know, there's a signal inside me telling me that I shouldn't be here. And I can I can hear it. Sometimes I I justify it away or I try and drown it out, but I know. What would you whisper to that person? What did you What would have been words helpful words to this Cody at 36 Mhm. to whisper to that Cody at 29? Two words my dad said to me, which is exit tax. So, uh when I left, it was expensive uh and both physically and and emotionally. And uh and I told my dad about it and he said there's always an exit tax to freedom. Um and that stuck with me because I was like, "Oh, this is just This is just a toll. It's just a payment." But once it gets paid, what's on the other side? That word freedom. And one thing that really helped me actually when I was going through this, which all this is funny cuz I don't ever talk about this stuff, but um but I got a little place. Like I had like the big house, all the stuff, whatever before, and I got this little tiny townhouse right afterwards. Actually, at one point, like I couldn't get into my bank accounts and stuff. And so I I didn't have much, but I got this tiny little townhouse that I rented. And that uh tiny townhouse nesting in a place that was just my own that felt really safe was one of the weirdest unlocks that I've ever had. I now think about it as the power of place. If you can just have somewhere else that you go to that is just yours, that's my biggest recommendation for people that go through, let's say, a divorce or a really tumultuous, you know, change in partner, is there's something about like a glass of, you know, I would have like a little glass of wine or a cup of tea in this tiny little townhouse, but it was mine. It was like nobody else's. I didn't have to share it. I didn't have to compromise. I could just be me. And from there I could sort of recreate again. Um and I've heard that now from many, many, many women at least who have been divorced that like that next little tiny place is really important. And I and I think if I could do it again, I'd I'd go back and buy that place and I'd like Maybe I'll buy a few and I'd give it to women, like or men, right after they get out of their thing because it's almost like you need to stand on your own two feet again. You forget how to. So, I would just remember there's an exit tax to freedom. And then on the other side don't you know, I like to say like you know, I don't think you shouldn't strive for divorce. You know, I think marriage is tough and relationships are tough and there's a huge benefit to working through things with one human for life. I take that very seriously. But if you are in fact in something that is unhealthy and that you should not be in realizing that the other side is so much better than I ever could have imagined. I mean, I would not have the life that I live right now, which is a pretty [ __ ] great life if I had stayed on the side of easy. And now, you know, when I told my mom she like cried for days and you know, questioned it and you know, was like, how are you going to do this? And now uh she's the opposite. She's like, you know, yeah, it was the such the right decision. I'm so happy for you. And will say things to me like, you were so brave, which is weird for me to say out loud, but that you did that because most people would stay. Um so that's what I would say. There's definitely freedom on the other side. Did you set goals? Yeah, definitely. How did you set your goals and what goals do you have? Well, one of the ways that I figured out uh how to get divorced was actually I set a date on my calendar. So, I was like, I'm going to commit to fixing this and therapy and all of this stuff. But if and here's what we're going to do and here's the plan. And if we can't fix it and this is like my drop dead date cuz I was such a wuss I couldn't do it unless I put it on a calendar. Um so, I'm a big calendar person. I I really like having a deadline. When I was started writing this book, my due date's in like 4 weeks or something like that. And it's not like I look at it frequently, but it's just out there. You mean Yeah, it's just this it's this thing that gets put in your psyche and somehow you can work backwards so much easier from a date. So, it sounds so silly, but most humans will say, well, in 1 year or 3 years or 5 years." I'm like, "Put it on your calendar." Like, whatever that actual timeline is, and then try to work backwards. And then for most goals, I believe in short-term goals, 100%. Maybe daily, weekly, monthly, annually. But, 3 or 5-year goals, who knows? I mean, you wouldn't have thought you were doing this 2 years ago. [ __ ] chance. I wouldn't have thought so either. So, like, I might have a really big vision for 10 years or 20 years, but as I get closer, I might realize, "Oh god, actually, nope, that's not what I want." So, allowing yourself that freedom to not want to be the hot, sexy, rich millionaire with Bentleys, and instead say, "Oh no, what I actually want to do is I want to talk about what I want to talk about, with whom I want to talk about, owning companies I want to, and having no master." That's what rich looks like for me. And if you had stuck with your original goals, that wouldn't have been the case. You got team members? Yeah. Employees? Yeah. Some of them are here listening, probably. Um does it not feel like it's a bit of a contradictory message in some ways where you're trying to get them to stay? Yeah. But part of their job is to get produce content with you to get other people to leave their jobs. Yeah. So, I have a really important differentiator between equity and ownership in a business and skin in the game. I do not think everybody wants to be a founder of a business. I don't think everybody wants to be an outright owner of a business. I think everybody should have ownership, always. And so, the way that looks in our business is basically every single person who works for me, even all the way down to my admin, gets skin in the game. So, that means that if they do X and Y and Z, they see how they can make more money directly. If they come on to my team, they can all source us deals and get a percentage of the carry, which means equity in the underlying companies. I know you know that, but for anybody listening. Um everybody on my team's always has had that. And then, you know, the the other members of my team and businesses before, like my last uh number two, I then left the business to her, she became the CEO of the business. So, she has ownership of the business. I don't let I should be really careful about the fact that if anybody on my team, and they already know this, we just sent a message yesterday, somebody asked for like a testimonial from me about work that they had done. But, their work wasn't very good. So, I wasn't going to give them a testimonial. And I said to the team, "Any one of our high performers, if you ever want to leave this company and you're great at this company, one, of course, I'll open every door for you and I'll write any testimonial or whatever you need. And in fact, if you want to start your own business, I hope I'm the first phone call, cuz I would like to invest in you. I want to be that guy that saw that in you." No doubt, every single time. But, that's not for every human. Some humans want to be in a business, like my number two, my CMO, Chris, he doesn't want to run a business himself, but he does want ownership. So, he has skin in the game from both a revenue perspective and from uh followership perspective. Same with my head of content. Same with Christian and our AdSense and our YouTube channel. So, I think it's really important that you make sure, when you continue to work harder, you make more, no matter what. So many people have philosophies towards money. You know, people will say, "Oh, you got to save more than you spend. You got to [ __ ] not have the Starbucks coffee. That's how you'll get rich." What is your overarching philosophy to building wealth and money? Do you have something like a philosophy, a mantra? Well, uh first, I think you should have the [ __ ] coffee. I think that is terrible advice. Um so, I I like Dave Ramsey, I get where he's going with it, but um I think you cannot save your way to wealth. You can only earn your way to wealth. But, my mantra overall is that I think every human on the planet should understand the language of money, which is finance. And if you understand the language, then you can speak it fluently. And when you can speak it fluently, you can become an expert in it. And expertise leads to a bunch of cash. And so, everything we do is to try to normalize deal making or the language of finance. We're like the Duolingo to finance on the internet. Um and I think I mean, we have a goal of we want to create 100,000 small business owners and 1 million financially free people. And we track how many people tell us they bought a business and how much revenue and profit they earned. And so, my goal is before we're done with this, however long that's going to be, I want to hit those two goals. And I think we'll hit them in the next 5 years, maybe 7. Um but that's that is that is the the gold star for me. That and my new mantra, which you might appreciate, which is my 2023 mantra is like no more B players. Oh my god. Because That was my 2021 mantra, my 2022 mantra. That was my That'll be my 2024 mantra. Did you Have you seen those stats where it shows about sitting next to B play Oh, this is so good. My friend Vanessa Van Edwards showed this to me. So, there's a study done across hundreds of individuals, might be hundreds of companies. It's a big study. Um and essentially, it shows if you sit next to an uh a high performer Yeah. So, if you have your team sit next to a high performer, you do. You will outperform by 15%. So, a high performer just in your proximity will increase your performance by 15%. If you sit next to a low performer, underperformer, it will decrease your productivity by 30%. So, every B player you bring on board is not just decreasing their productivity by 30%. It is that energy transfer, which is that everybody around them becomes a little bit less productive. And I think one of the reasons people want to be owners of companies is because they feel that. People want to stay at companies where there's a bunch of winners. It's why I liked Goldman. I was like, these guys are so smart. I'm learning so much. I want to keep going. When I was at Vanguard, I was like, oh my god, these schleps are just schlepping around the office not doing anything. I'm not learning anything. And they're by you know, design sort of pulling you back and down. And so I keep that number on notepad next to my computer for me to one not be the underperformer and two it's not just about getting rid of underperformers for you as a CEO, it's not good to do to your team. So, you know, we've definitely have have had them in varying companies of mine, but we push relentlessly to either make people better or help them find the thing that they can be an A performer at. Do you know who's very sticky in companies? Who? B players. Oh god, I know. C players will get fired. B players will hang around. That's exactly right. And A players will probably leave. Yeah, and well, A players will leave if you keep being C players. They're gone. They're not interested. Yeah. B players will hang and they will think that you owe them more is what I found. Yes. They are the ones that ask for the most, they're the most entitled, and they're the most dangerous in a company. It's like a cancer that you need to to cut before it spreads, which sounds like, okay, really? Um, but it's actually true because your employees are choosing to spend their life and their time with you. And so every B player that you associate next to them is actually decreasing their time and that's not a fair thing to do to somebody in a company. It doesn't make firing people easier. It's never easy. It's never easy. Mhm. But it's important. Yeah. What's the most important thing you think we haven't talked about? Mhm. You know, we talked at the start of this conversation about who's listening. And you gave me the three personas and you we talked about that person that's maybe in that job and they're trying to find their way out. What is the most important thing for that person that we haven't maybe yet Maybe just one of my team members was saying this on the way over. They're big fans of yours. They listen to all your stuff. Uh-huh. And uh Are they A players and looking for jobs? Yeah. Yeah, actually one of them lives here and uh and is a um is freelance. Cool. So, he could work for you. If you touch my other one, I'm going to have to It's going to be over, Steve. the A player? They're both They're both A players. Okay. Um no, we're pretty good. I definitely wouldn't travel around with B players. No chance. Um so, the um and he said something that I thought was really good, which was um he was listening to your podcast and he liked one in particular where you talked about um s- like all the the failings of people who are successful. And so, the only thing that we haven't talked about is the fact that you know, we say all this stuff like don't keep B players around. Get rid of them, you know, do this, get better. And and and on the flip side of that, like there are many mornings where I'm up at 8:00 or 9:00 and not 5:00 in the morning. And there are many mornings where um I'm stuck in a Tik Tok, you know, Instagram K hole and I'm not doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing. And I think normalizing the fact that people who have achieved things also are awful, [ __ ] up, don't do the right thing every single day is important to me because sometimes I get on these and I'm like, I don't want people to perceive that I'm on some high horse that's incredibly capable and productive. That's not always the case at all. I have many periods where I have not done the right thing, where I've messed up on business deals, where uh I am the worst in the room. And and I think that's okay. It It's natural. We're human. We're going to mess up. So, just making sure people know that listening. You don't have to be perfect to do any of this. In fact, I'm sure you would agree, we're both so flawed that if I can figure this stuff out, I think any working John can figure this stuff out, too. I'm no smarter than anybody else. I went to a party school. I didn't go to Harvard. You know, I probably did more beer bongs than I did, you know, honors classes in college. And and I still figured it out. And it took me until I was, you know, 29 or 30, but that's still pretty young. Um so, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest. I love this question. They said, "When was the moment you were most afraid? If they don't want to answer it, who's your favorite member of One Direction?" That's great. But you don't tell them who the person was that asked Oh, fine. What I couldn't even name that, so I'm going to have to answer the question. When was I most afraid? Actually, um So funny. They are a comedian. I'm going to give it away. Oh, okay. So, when was I last most afraid um or when was I most afraid ever? This is sort of silly, but um I hiked a mountain called Mike Mount Baker and uh it is a technical climb, so you use ice axes and crampons and it's freezing. And I didn't really know what I was getting into and um I don't like the cold and I don't like heights and I don't like camping. And so, 3 days hiking a glacial mountain um that's very high, it was like probably not my best idea. But I But I did it and um I hated it. Like for 3 days, I was with all these other women and they kind of like liked it and I to be fair, I like kind of thought I was tougher than them, you know, and they know this, so they can hear it, but you know, a lot of them I have this big career. I I come off as tough. I can you know, get out there, go do it. And then here I was on this mountain, I'm [ __ ] miserable. I'm scared of the heights that I'm going to fall off and tumble to my death. I'm freezing. I have to sleep on top of a glacier. I can't sleep. You're carrying your your feces in a bag for 3 days, which is another fun little side note. And we get up on the second day, it's so vertical that you have to be roped in to each other on the climb. And I'm at the end of it, too, which is awful. So, I all I you know, I'm the one that sees behind us, the guides in front. There's like six of us or four of us on a rope or something like that. And we get up after climbing for 2 days. I'm so miserable and mad that I said yes to this. And we're on this crater, cuz there's a volcanic crater before we climb up what's called the wall, which is an ice wall before you get to the top, where you have to step like like this with your ice ax to get up the wall. And I like I'm like I almost want to cry. I can't think of anything I want to do less than this. And everybody's preparing to go up. And um and I'm just like I don't think I'm going to I'm not going to go up anymore. And I had all these ideas in my head, like, but if you don't summit, like, then you're not tough. And you got to get up there cuz these other women are going to do it, and then you're going to feel bad and whatever. And as I thought there, I was just like, what am I trying to prove? Like, I'm pretty happy. Life's good. Like I don't have on my bucket list that I want to summit Mount Baker. I just kind of said yes to this trip. And it wasn't even the heights that was so scary or the cold. It was like, am I like a failure by not doing this tough thing that everybody else is going to do? And am I going to be the one person that says like, I'm out. I'm going down. I'm tapping out. I'm done. And I like have this whole dialogue with myself. And then I told the guide, and there were a few of them. I was like, yeah, the thing is, I'm going to go back down. I'm going to chill at like base camp. I'm not going to summit. And my girlfriends came over, and they were like, let's talk about this. Let's get motivational. And I'm like, no. Totally fine. I just realized up here that most of my life I've been trying to like please a bunch of people to goals I don't care about with things I don't really want in order to achieve some ridiculous thing. And like, I don't want to climb up there. I'm going to be pissed if I fall and break my neck doing this thing I don't even want to do. And so, I tell the guide. He's like, cool. I've never run faster down the side of a mountain. I get down to the bottom. I'm happy as a [ __ ] clam. At that point, I realize I have altitude sickness, so I'm like tripping balls in the tent, which is really good that I realized that cuz then when I was climbing the wall, I might have gotten dizzy and that wouldn't have been good. And I didn't realize when you got altitude sickness, you it's it's hallucinogenic. So, the tent's like moving as I'm laying in it, but I'm great cuz I'm back in the tent on the the like uh second peak area. And then on the way down, like two of the women blew out their knees. It was like a 6-hour evolution. And I just remember thinking, [ __ ] Like, what if I had done that thing I was so scared of just because everybody else told me that I should have done it. And I felt like it took more courage for me to not do the thing than do the thing. So many people are right now climbing a mountain where they don't even care about seeing the view. Right. You know? Right. Why do we do that? So, yeah, I think sometimes, you know, they say everything you want is on the other side of fear, and it's like if the thing that you want is the thing on the other side of fear, it's not every fear we have to charge into. And so, I guess choose your mountain wisely, right? Amen. Thank you, Cody. Thank you for your time, your wisdom, and your entertaining, captivating storytelling, and uh and insights. It's really, really valuable to our audience. There's not many people like you out there, so it's so wonderful to to get to speak to someone. And the mission that you're on is such an important one. I love it for so many reasons. I love it because you you glamorize the unglamorous. And I often think in so many facets of our lives, the easiest way is in fact the boring way. Yeah. It's the the way that isn't going to get the likes and the applause on Instagram. And there's not There's not a market for that, right? There's a market for the quick, shiny, six-pack abs in 3 minutes, all that stuff. There's the market for that, all the NFTs, the cryptos, the get-rich-quick schemes. You present the important counter-narrative, and you do it as an incredibly powerful, honest, willing to be vulnerable woman in business, and we need more of that because business and the creator world, the entrepreneurship community is heavily dominated by men right now. And that is that is not a bridge that um many people can relate to. Those stories and where they've come from and the battles that they face. So, you present the counter narrative and it's a very important one. So, I also bet on you like our mutual friend does in a big way and I can't wait to see your evolution as you climb that worthy mountain over the next couple of years. Thank you for having me. This was a pleasure. Totally different podcast. I can see why so many people listen to you. So, thank you for having me today. You're very kind. Thank you, Katie. Ladies and gentlemen, as you know, Zoe is now sponsoring this podcast and I'm a proud investor in the company and I've been going on the Zoe journey myself. It all starts with this home testing kit you get sent in the post which measures your gut health, your blood sugar, and your blood fat. I've had this little device, this blood sugar glucose sensor on my arm which came in the home testing kit to understand how all of the different foods that I eat day-to-day have an impact on my body. And it's been pretty unbelievable. A big thing for me is feeling tired after I've eaten something and not understanding why. Historically, I didn't understand. Now I do understand. I've been eating, I think it was like a rice stir-fry with a bit of chicken and some chili sauce in there and I saw on my blood glucose chart on my phone, which is connected to the device that Zoe sent me, this huge spike. And then later in the day, I saw a huge dip when I started feeling that sort of post-lunch slump. And what will happen next is Tim tells me they'll take all of that data and give me my own personalized Zoe scores for any food so I can figure out what I should be eating and what I should avoid if I want to avoid those afternoon slumps. And if you want to get started on your Zoe journey with me, use the code, we've got an exclusive code here, CEO10 for 10% off and let me know how you get on when it arrives. You got to the end of this podcast. Whenever someone gets to the end of this podcast, I feel like I owe them a greater debt of gratitude because that means you listened to the whole thing. And hopefully that suggests that you enjoyed it. If you are at the end and you enjoyed this podcast, could you do me a little bit of a favor and hit that subscribe button? That's one of the clearest indicators we have that this episode was a good episode and we look at that on all of the episodes to see which episodes generated the most subscribers. Thank you so much and I'll see you again next time.