The Modern Sex Work Debate - Bonnie Blue & Louise Perry (4K)

Louise, why were you interested in sitting down with Bonnie? >> I find it really interesting. I think that a lot of just having talked to women >> Mhm. >> about doing this conversation, the response from so many women is I think something like more curiosity. >> Yeah. >> Like interested in you, confused by you. >> Yeah. Yeah. And wondering, I mean, the main thing that I'm hoping that to learn about you today, cuz I've about your work, is your psychology, your personality, what it is about you that's led you to do this >> because I get the impression from having watched interviews with you and so on >> that actually I over the years I've interviewed loads and loads of women or spoken to loads and loads of women who've been in the sex industry in various ways, whether that's porn or >> prostitution or brothel, street walking, whatever. And every single case they've talked about distress, trauma or having a horrible time like to varying degrees. >> Yeah. >> You don't talk about that. And I think that you're telling the truth. >> I think actually you don't find this work causes you psychological harm. >> Yeah. >> And I guess I want to find out why. I think that's a really interesting question. >> Yeah. No, I think it's good cuz everyone always assumes and even when I say multiple times, I'm not traumatized. have not had a bad upbringing. Everyone thinks I'm lying. And it's really not the case. And it's terrible for some people, unfortunately, they've had a bad upbringing or terrible things have happened. But for me, I've just chosen to do this. >> How familiar are you with Louise's work? Do you know what she writes about? Are you familiar with any of the background? I'm >> not. Okay. How would you What's a 30,000 foot view to explain to to Bonnie sort of your philosophical underpinnings? >> So, I guess I'm coming at this as a conservative. Yeah. And I've uh I mean I wrote a book called the case against the sexual revolution. I'm generally critical of the sexual revolution and porn. >> Um I worked in a rape crisis center before I became a journalist which I guess has informed my sounds very bless you. >> And I my general view on the sex industry is like very negative. >> So we I we're going to come at this from different perspectives. But I do like I'm guessing that a lot of people listening are going to assume that I'm going to try and like uncover trauma in you or I'm going to try and like break through the >> You'd waste your time. >> And I I think I actually think that's right. And that's part of the reason I'm interested in I'm more interested in talking to you than I would be to say Lily Phillips. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I think that Lily to me and to a lot of people, I think it's clear that Lily is actually suffering quite a lot and is having a hard time. >> She seems traumatized, >> right? which is in a way less the less interesting story. >> It's more obvious. >> Yeah. And it is horrible. Like I'm very lucky and fortunate to be in the position I'm in because I'm not traumatized. I'm not upset. I'm not distressed. But I think for a lot of people and especially a lot of sex workers, they're completely out of their comfort zone or they're doing things for money and views or unfortunately they've had a bad upbringing which has led them to be a sex worker. And it is terrible and it is horrible. Um, and it's not always the nicest of industries for most people. >> Would you advise Lily to stop? >> Um, yeah. I think if you're going to keep crying and upset and it's destroying your family, there's some things which are a lot more valuable than money and views. Um, the biggest thing in life and it's so simple is to be happy. And if you're not happy, why do something? Because yes, you could be driving fancy cars and you know, you could wear flashy clothes, but if you're not happy, well, then what is it all for? Like as long as each day I'm waking up happy and I'm going to sleep happy, I'll be proud of myself. Other people might be disgusted in me and I accept that. But for me, as long as I'm happy, then that's okay. >> What bit of it makes you happy of what you do? >> It's a mixture. There's not one thing. It's not like, oh, it's the orgasm. Oh, it's the money. It's the it's the views. Um, the main part of it is the life I live now, both inside of work and outside. like I get to travel the world. I go on trips I would have dreamed of. Um I get to spend so much more time with my family and I don't feel disgusting when I'm at work or when I'm filming. I'm surrounded with men which are giving me compliments and it gives me a massive confidence boost. So there's no set answer of what makes me happy. It's there's no part of my job I don't really enjoy. Like yes it can become tiring. It can be hard work at times, but no one becomes successful or lives a really happy life without facing some challenges. >> Would you I mean something I've often wondered about with anyone on Only Fans. >> Yeah. >> Is you could presumably have landed a rich husband. >> Like if you had set that as your object, you're like, I want to live a luxurious life. Fair enough. >> You could have made that your goal to be like the most successful gold digger in the world and you would have achieved all of that. the travel, the living somewhere lovely, all of this without the sex. >> I see them as more of a sex worker than me because they're using their sex appeal. They're using sex to pleasure their partner. Their partner is then going to fund their lifestyle. Their partner is then going to pay for holidays, fancy clothes. They're using sex just like I am. However, I'm not afraid to admit I use sex to get what I want. Whereas those people become very snobby, very uptight. They look down on most people. Yeah, they're still using their holes to pay their bills. It's just someone else is doing it, but I'm independent. >> So, you're like the more more honest, more authentic version of that. >> For sure. Like, there's nothing I lie about. There's nothing I you know, people call me [ __ ] slag, whatever, and I accept that. And people call me a sex worker because I am. Whereas, if I was to say, "Look, you've married your husband purely for his money. In return, you give him sex." They'd like, "No, I'm not a sex worker." If they stopped giving him sex, he's going to leave and go elsewhere. But they can't. They need they need his money. >> So is it also the vi vulnerability like you I mean I think at this point you've earned so much money >> you're set up for life I would guess. Whereas I suppose a woman with a rich husband at any moment he could just pull the rug. >> They're on contract. >> Yeah. They've got a longer shift than I have. But I could stop. They can't. >> Yeah. Do you do you think you ever will stop? >> Possibly. But I don't have a plan anymore. And for most people that sounds really stressful. But I used to have the most structured life. I knew exactly what I'd be doing on a Tuesday midday. Where'd I'd be getting lunch from? And now I don't have a plan. Because sometimes when you have a plan, you become so fixated on the future, what one year looks like, what 2 years, 5 years down the line looks like. And then you dismiss everyday happiness. You become so fixated on what the future looks like. You forget to live your life and live in this moment in time. So I can't say, "Oh, it's going to be 5 years or 10 years." Because it might be in one year I no longer enjoy it, so I'll stop. Um, so there's there's no set set plan and that's okay. I much prefer my life now. Even though I don't know what or where I'm going to be tomorrow, let alone five years. And you can't always say like when you was young, you'd enjoy going to the park and then when you're a bit older, you might enjoy some other interest. And when then goes to bird watching like it always varies. So I can't say what's going to make me happy now is going to make me happy in 10 years. Do you think it would be difficult for you to stop given that you've attached so much of your notoriety and sense of identity to this thing that if you've made a big song and dance about this is what I want to do >> that if you no longer want to do it there is going to be this uh social consistency bias this sort of momentum that's behind you where you go [ __ ] like every person that said she's not built for it or this isn't going to be right I'm going to have to now do this U-turn whether it is self-generated or externally imposed. >> Does that make sense? That you have this sense of obligation to what you promised in the past about what you wanted right now. >> Yeah. >> Um I imagine that >> even you would struggle. There's going to be a sense of [ __ ] like I've got this I've got this uh weird obligation identity obligation that I used to have. >> Um I completely understand where you're coming from, but no, because I don't care. I don't really get peer pressured into doing anything. If I think something, I'll do it. And if I don't want to do something, I'm very stubborn and I won't do it. So, and I've always said I might not be doing it in 10 years. I might be doing it in 10 years. It depends if it makes me happy or not. Um, and even if I sat here today and said, I'm definitely doing this in 10 years. And then if in 5 years I change my mind, that's fine because I'm in control. And the big difference between me and other sex workers is I understand my limits. I understand my body and what I can take or what I can't take. So I'm never left distressed or I'm never left thinking that was too much for me to handle because you know I sort of know what I can and can't do. >> Well, have you ever hit your limit? >> Not yet. >> Right. >> Okay. Tell me about that. >> I did a really big scene in America. So I'd always done obviously I did the thousand in January and then I did one in the US in like March or April um with 50 porn stars and their penises are a lot bigger than the average person. the way they have sex, the way it's incredibly rough at times. And that was hard. And I went into it quite naive. I was thinking, well, I've done a thousand. What's 50? But that 50 was really, it was really hard. >> How so? >> Just very intense. Um, it was rough. There was times where like I could not see at all. Like my eyes were completely filled with fluids. Um, and yeah, there was some positions which I was like, "No, I need to switch this up. It's actually feeling, you know, a bit painful." Um, but that was fine as long as I'm able to say, "Hey, I need to switch this position up." That you could be having sex with one person sometimes. And you think, "Okay, no, my legs are flinching. I need to switch this." Um, but you have to speak up. You can't sort of sit there and go through something painful and then blame everyone else for you being in pain. Cuz if you don't tell someone it hurts, then how are they going to know? You say a bit painful. I mean, I think most women are like bowled over the thought of how painful it would be. >> Yeah. Do you like do you think that you're unusual like not wanting to get into >> anatomy? >> Yeah. Although it feels funny saying blue. Um do you have like more physical endurance do you think than most women? >> No. I mean I've always said I've been very athletic. I've always been quite fit and healthy. Um but no, like when I first started I didn't really understand what turned me on and what I enjoyed a lot more. Like when I'm enjoying it I find I'm able to have sex a lot rougher. So now if I need to take more breaks, I will. I don't feel panicked to sort of know what I'm I don't ever think I need to know what I'm doing right now. If I think, you know what, actually, could I have someone to lick me out for 5 minutes before we go again? I'll happily speak up and say that. So, >> but I do think I have um a good level of endurance. >> How about emotional endurance? Because another thing that a lot of women will think is >> like frankly a lot of these guys are gross. Like I've seen I've seen videos of your cues and of the guys who show to the events and they they they can be old, they can be fat. Like probably some of them smell, I'm guessing. Like >> honestly, everyone says this, but in terms of the smell, like yeah, some of them are skinny, some are fat, like some are spotty, some aren't, but that's normal. Like um in terms of smell, genuinely, they never smell. And I think it's because they're so nervous. They know they're coming out links before they show >> 100%. They know they're coming to me purely for sex. So they have showered just before I came. They freshen up just before they come in. So in terms of smell, no. But even in terms of body shapes, I used to say, "Oh, fat people are lazy." Like they actually irritate me. But then I when I became a sex worker, I'd start to speak to these men a lot more. Yeah, some of them are fat. And I'd speak to them and realize they're not necessarily fat all the time because they're lazy. Their life is so busy. They've got children now. They're trying to pay bills. They're trying to keep on top of things. And they can no longer prioritize, you know, clean eating all the time in the gym. So I don't even judge the fat ones anymore, but I used to. >> But you don't get any sense of like physically recoiling like I don't fancy this man. You never get that. >> Well, most women have a blue ski mask in on. So in terms of face wise, no. >> Yeah. I think if I really found someone unattractive, the part I've struggled with most is the kissing. >> Um cuz to me that's very I don't know. You connect a lot when you kiss someone. >> But no, like I don't always even see their face. And I know this is going to repulse a lot of people, but I love the fact it's like always a rotation. I don't even always know I've had sex with someone. I don't always know who's inside of me. Um, but no, I don't get repulsed. I sort of see everyone as they're there for a reason. I don't know what's happening behind their closed doors and I'm there purely to give them a good experience and that's all I sort of focus on. Some of them I obviously find more attractive than others. I think bloody hell, you're hot. And then other ones I'm like, oh, I wouldn't date you. But even if you walk past someone attractive in the street, that's not what's going to make you come. It's the way they are, their technique. And I can remember when I was a full service worker, one of my clients, he was a bit bigger. I didn't find him attractive. And if anything, he repulsed me a little bit. He made me orgasm and I was like, "Oh god, should I be disgusted in myself that this guy that I don't find attractive has just made me come?" And then I realized it's not to do with their looks, it's their technique and how they treat me in the bedroom. that you go to sleep with someone really attractive and they're terrible and bad. >> So you do have a threshold like sometimes you will find men slightly repulsive at least, but it's not so high a threshold that basically everyone obviously I look at different people and think you're more attractive than the other person. I prefer your body shape to the other one. Like everyone's got preferences and I know I have but I never look at someone and think I don't want you near me. >> Interesting. I remember Rachel Moran who is a she was um uh prostituted as teenager in in Dublin. >> Um she something that she says to women to try and like help them to understand what it's like to be um in prostitution is imagine being on a bus or in a cafe or something and look around every single man in that room and think I have to have sex with every single one of these men like old, young, fat, whatever. Um, and she she uses that as the thought experiment for women because overwhelmingly they respond like and what's unusual about you is you don't respond. >> Yeah. You actually >> I think if they want smelly and like stuff like that that really get me like smell. I just think stick some deodorant on or have a shower like >> Uhhuh. >> But because they don't smell like that was that's my biggest thing I think is smell especially cuz they're going to be in my mouth and I'm licking them. >> Yeah. >> But in terms of looks I really don't judge and I probably used to. Um, but now >> have you trained yourself out of it? >> Not trained myself. I've spoke to them for years now and hours on end. Like if someone's got bad skin, it's not their fault all the time. Sometimes it's cuz they got a terrible diet and they're lazy and they're not washing their face and everything else. But some people just have bad skin. Some people are super skinny, some people are fat. And I'm always very open-minded. And I think that's allowed me to drop the judgment and drop the you repulse me because I might see someone really fat and some of them come in with genuinely not even an inch and they're massive and I can barely find it. But I think you know what? You've come to the event like this might really boost your confidence. I don't know. You might be really stressing outside of this. You might be having a bad life and there's probably a reason of why you're so fat but I just want to give you a good, you know, >> very philanthropic in that way. What do you think sex is for? Do you do you think of it as something? Is it sacred, relational, recreational, nothing? Is it the same as as walking? >> It's a hobby. It's fun. Um, and there's not really much to it be like else I think about it. Before I used to have a really low body count prior to being a sex worker. I couldn't imagine having sex with someone unless I was dating them or unless I imagined, you know, I wasn't having sex on a first date. Now it's within seconds. But to me now, sex is just a It doesn't have to mean something. I can still enjoy it. It's a It's an orgasm and it's as simple as that. Before, how old were you when you became a sex worker? >> Uh 24. I'm doing two years, so 20. >> And that was straight into fans? >> Yeah. Well, I did cam for a couple of weeks. Maybe for like two to four weeks I did cam and that really boosted my confidence. Um, and then I set up only fans. So before then, you said you had a low body count. You wouldn't do like gang bangs off camera, right? Cuz that's now your main thing. That's what you know. >> Yeah. So prior to that, I was married and in a long-term relationship. >> Yeah. >> And so like where's this come from? Where's this this massive change in your sexual preferences? >> Um, to start with money. >> Yeah. Yeah, I didn't want to go back to work. I used to work in recruitment, long hours, restricted annual leave and I live the same life as everybody else and then they sit and complain about it. I >> heard that you worked at Poundland when you were youn. >> Yes, I did. That was quite bad to be honest. I can remember someone pissed in a potty and gave it to me and I >> Well, well, both the fact that it's called Poundland and they pissed in a potty, that was quite precient, I guess, for the rest of your life. >> Yeah, to be honest, I should uh use that. But yeah, I used to be a waitress. I was a dance teacher. Worked at Poundland. just did anything for a bit of a bit of money and I never really cared what job I did. Like I worked at Pound Stretcher cuz that job paid more than all the other shops at the retail park. >> Other people wanted a job at McDonald's, but my job paid nearly two pound extra an hour. >> So I've always been more bothered about what life I can create outside of work as opposed to being bothered that I had to wear a pound stretcher outfit. Um, but yeah, when I first started it was money and I wanted flexibility in my life because I knew going back into recruitment when rush hour traffic sitting there for 40 hours a week if not longer and only having Saturday and Sunday to myself and then Sundays tends to be food shop cooking for the week and your whole day is taken up before you know it. So money and freedom was why I started. >> And so you hadn't previously been sexually adventurous? >> No. Like sex three times a week >> um >> with your husband? Mhm. Yeah. >> How how old were you when you lost virginity? >> 13. >> So that is quite young. >> Young, but I've always been very grown up for my age. So if I saw a 13year-old now, some of them I'm like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I even had sex at that age." But I was very mature when I was 13. >> In terms of the the the group sex events that you're known for now. >> Yeah. Why did you start doing that? Was it because it turns you on or was it because there was like a niche in the market? >> It happened by accident to be honest, the first one. Well, I don't just trip into, you know, and end up in a gang bang, but I started off doing things like freshers and spring break. And I was at spring break in March last year. And loads of them had been saying at the like at the hotel I was at like, "Oh, I haven't had a chance to speak with you yet. You've not replied to my message." And I was leaving the following day. So, I just shared my hotel room number. I was like, "Look, I'm going to be here. I leave at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. Just queue up. Bring your friends. Like, the door's going to be open." And that just naturally ended up in a gang bang. It got to like 3:00 4:00 a.m. I was really tired and I was like, "Look, whoever's left in the queue, look, just come all at once because like I don't want to leave you waiting." And that was the first time I did a gang bang. And I realized it wasn't what I thought. It wasn't dirty. It wasn't disgusting. These guys were having a laugh. They was high-fiving each other. It was quite It was more funny than it was sexy, to be honest. Some of them couldn't get hard. Some of them was finishing straight away. And I realized I loved the environment it created. It wasn't dirty. And I know people imagine it that way, but it was really just a a fun experience for me and those involved. >> If you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over a 100red biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it in a simple dashboard, and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels to your thyroid function and nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. And getting your blood work done and drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is only $499. And right now they're giving a thousand Modern Wisdom listeners another $100 off, bringing it down to $399. So just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. >> How did you end up chasing the records? So doing the hundred, doing the thousand. >> Um, so after that spring break, there was a journalist who said like what's next? Like what are you going to do after this? cuz each time I was doing these like spring break or freshes, my numbers was going up and he was like, "Well, why don't you do the world record?" So, it was actually a journalist Joe who sort of mentioned it and I didn't think too much of it. I was like, "Yeah, that sounds brilliant." But I knew I wasn't big enough at the time to get 900,000 people to be queuing up and having sex with me cuz it's one thing saying you're going to do it. The organization behind it is probably the biggest headache and the difficult part. Um, so yeah, it was in the back of my mind from March and as the months went on, I continued to grow. My social media got bigger. I was building a bigger name for myself. So then that's why I did it in January. >> If you've got any questions, I can go on and on. >> I'm I'm happy watching this go back and forth. It's girl on girl for now. Um, >> I do like boy, girl, girl as well. >> I'm setting this one out. I'm in the corner. So I guess doing the big events and like shocking people and one of the things that you do in terms of your social media strategy is you you troll everyone right like and particularly you often addressing women and like the wives and girlfriends of these men and really focus like >> trying to get a rise out of people trying to be controversial. >> And one of the things again that I find sort of >> as a woman I find surprising and having spoken to other women they also find it surprising is that you don't seem to mind women hating you. >> It doesn't upset you. you don't feel that need to be liked that most women do feel. It's another way in which like you've got the physical endurance, you've got the low threshold for disgust, you've got and you've got this appetite for not notoriety. >> Yeah. I don't hate women at all. I know it can come across like I hate women and that's honestly not the case at all. Um but I say many times like women are very easy to wind up at times and they're the ones that spend more time on Tik Tok than their husbands. So, if I'm using a platform like Tik Tok, I'm going to sometimes make my Tik Toks for women because I know they're going to complain about it. They're going to sit and watch it and their husband is then going to hear it. So, my videos when I do the Tik Toks, even though it's aimed at women, it's aimed because I know the husband's going to hear about this one way or another. And the things I say, it can come across very harsh. I do believe everything I say, but I will word it in a very, I guess, rude way at times because Tik Tok, you've got about 10 seconds before someone scrolls off that, if not shorter. So, I'm going to say it in the most brutal way possible to get them watching the rest of that video. >> Do you have many female friends? >> Yes, I do. >> Okay. >> Um, I know that can seem shocking or people say, "What do you sleep with their husband?" Or, "What do your friends think about what you say?" Um, but they hear like the long-winded explanation of why I've said something or like one of the big ones is, you know, about husbands cheating and it was never your husband is cheating on you. It was just if you're not having sex with him, he is probably going elsewhere and I will happily sleep with him. But it's never to say, look, I'm going to turn up at your house and drag your husband out out of your home. >> Would you feel a particular way if you'd found out that one of the people in the ski mask had been the husband of one of your friends? Um, yeah, I would obviously feel bad because I'd feel bad that their relationship had broke down a lot sooner before than what they would have realized for him to have been at one of my events. It clearly doesn't have a good communication with his wife. >> You see it as like a symptom of the relationship in crisis rather than you causing crisis. >> You will have some idiots and some men that will just cheat because they've cheated and they've got two brain cells if that. A lot of the time though, if someone cheats, there's a reason. and there's a lack of communication, a lack of connection with that partner, it's I'm not the one to blame. I've never forced them to be there. All I've done is put the message out and said, "Hey, would you like to have sex with me?" No one is forced. No one is, you know, bribed to be there. No one's even paid. >> Um, if a wife has ever been affected to have sex with her husband, it sounds rude, but it's they need to look in the mirror. They need to look at the communication they're having with their partner. and I'm sorry they're in a relationship that's not happy, but I'm not the one that's ruined that marriage. >> That's true. But we would you would be able to say uh a person who's a recovering alcoholic or a person who just has a tendency toward addiction, it is smarter for that person to not be around alcohol all the time. And if there was some imposition by the government that put alcohol on every street corner, this person would find it more difficult to avoid that. It's far easier to avoid temptation than it is to like to keep yourself away from it than than it is to stop feeling it altogether. >> Makes it very easy. >> And the increased prevalence of this, the increased advertising of this may cause people to think, well, what what's wrong with that? Like it's more it's more easily available. I can put the ski mask on. No one's going to find out. >> For sure. It definitely is easy. Um I literally share the location. You just turn up. It'd honestly be easier for them to cheat on a night owl, cheat when they're at work because they know when they turn up. Yes, they have a blue scheme mask on, but they've got to bring their ID. They've got to sign a consent form. They've got to take their mask off to fill in the consent form and fill in the form. So, it's it'd be much easier for them to cheat elsewhere. And I think it's a lot more hurtful. >> I'm not sure if it would be easier for them to cheat elsewhere. I think uh what's referred to in the industry as a clean kill, which is one that has no digital footprint when cheating on your partner, um is >> hard to give me a phone. we'll meet up at the end of the night or there's the room key to the hotel that you've used or concerns about CCTV. I I get the sense that a lot of guys would see ski mask on, briefly take it off, fill the thing in, put it back on and get to do this as repercussion, a repercussionfree way to be able to cheat on their partner. >> Yeah. And and I do get that. But for them to have been there, there's a reason. If someone was really happy in their marriage, they they wouldn't they wouldn't have turned up. But I'm going to sort of contradict myself a little bit because I think sometimes people cheat. It's not cuz they don't love their wife or their kids, but their wife no longer has a high sex drive or they've had children and they feel a bit body conscious and no longer want to have sex. And that's okay, but your husband probably doesn't feel the same. Your husband's probably still wanting sex, and he doesn't want to sometimes hurt you by saying he no longer feels like he's being pleasured. So, he goes elsewhere to have sex, meaningful sex. He's just having it. He's not cheating. He's just Well, he is, but it's not an affair. It there's no text and there's no emotional connection. Literally coming to someone who's offering himself up and then going back to you. Um, I think there is times people cheat and it's done not to hurt the wife, but if anything the opposite, just to protect them and want to keep them happy in their own little bubble and not ever sort of pressure them into saying, "Look, hey, I I want sex from you else. I'm going to go elsewhere." >> Bonnie, I've heard you say that you can't condemn porn stars with your right hand while masturbating with your left hand. >> What do you mean? >> That if someone was to tweet and say, "This is horrendous. How dare she do that whilst also being a user of porn?" That seems like a little bit of hypocrisy. >> Is that a fair criticism to try and square that circle in a way? >> I think I think what you do, Bonnie, not just in terms of the porn, but also in your attitude towards money and towards independence and like >> you and actually egalitarianism. I mean, when you talk about like I'll take any man, I don't judge, whatever, there's something very um progressive about that politically, right? Like be super super egalitarian. What you do is you actually take a lot of these um ideas that are present in the culture to their logical conclusion. >> Yeah. >> You say, well, okay, you tell me the culture says that it's fine to be sexually liberated and to um prioritize being an entrepreneur and to um not worry about all these traditional hang-ups and you basically take that to it conclusion. >> Take it to the extreme. >> You do. And I think what I think what happens a lot, one of the reasons I think you sort of rile people up is a lot of people who have a vague sense that that stuff is all good and fine and like they're kind of okay with sexual freedom and they're kind of okay with capitalism and and egalitarianism and they see that taken to its extreme and they go, "Oh, hang on. I don't like that." >> So you're saying that Bonnie is like the reductio adabsum of the sexual revolution. >> Yeah. You hold up a mirror to the culture is what it is. >> Is it fair to say that Bonnie is just the natural end result of modern feminism? Yeah, as well as other things too. But yeah, definitely I mean definitely the idea of prioritizing sexual liberation above all else and not seeing I mean what you said about sex being a hobby. I think that is an important idea that come the only reason we think that now is because we have um reliable contraception. Obviously before that you couldn't think of sex in that way because it >> well especially women like the >> Exactly. Yeah. It's because the risks are so high for them. Um but since the sexual revolution we've come to think I mean in a slightly schizophrenic way I think that people actually often think contradictory things but they often say oh yeah whatever sex like as long as everyone's consenting that's fine and then they see you you doing exactly that everyone in the in your queues is consenting you're consenting >> and they don't like it and one of the reasons I think that you're such a notorious figure is because you you actually invite people to look at those ideas and think, "Oh, wait. Maybe actually that if I don't like what Bonnie Blue is doing, do I actually support sexual freedom?" >> Yeah. Well, they sort of say one thing and then contradict themselves within two seconds. >> Yeah. >> And I always say not everyone should do what I do and not everyone will enjoy it and that's fine. Like I just think especially as women, if you want to do something, do it. As long as it's above board and legal and everyone's consenting, do it. Don't care about what people are going to say. Don't care about the backlash. Like care about the backlash if you're going to struggle dealing with it. But if something makes you happy, especially as a woman, like we're not restricted anymore. We can be independent. >> Well, a lot of people would say it shouldn't be legal. >> Yeah. >> Then they would try and stop you. >> For sure. Everyone says I'm a, you know, I groom them to have sex with me. Um, and then there was a massive argument because I don't pay the students I have sex with and they said that's completely wrong. But then if I'd have paid them, they're suddenly a sex worker and then there's bribery involved. So it's I honestly can't win. And I think that's why I just don't care so much as well because if I do one thing, it's wrong. And if I do the other, it's also wrong. And one of the main hate comments I get is, "Oh, if this was a guy, they'd be arrested. If this was a guy, they'd be in prison." >> This is belly legal stuff. >> H for sure. But teen category has always been the most searched category in adult content. Yeah. >> But the only difference is it's always been the males that have been older. So all I've done is switch it. And now suddenly these women that don't care about these men saying they hate me because they're so concerned that if because if this was a guy they'd be arrested and they think things should be equal is it just look in the mirror, Google, go online, you'll notice it's always school girls dressed up. Even when I was young for Halloween, we dress up as sexy school girls. Like school girl has always been a thing. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but don't cry about it being a school boy if you've never had an issue with the school girl. You do of course do stuff with school girls as well. >> Yeah. Which is quite >> I don't have an issue with it. I never said I have. Um and people had a massive uproar when I did the school girl as well. Yeah. Before it was an issue because it was the school boy. So it's like you know what I'll take both. >> That's a good way to ensure that equality is reached across the sexes. Is it empowering that Bonnie can do this? The right to say it's empowering. I mean I I think that the whole I don't like the word empowering. I think I think the whole idea of it I mean I think I think actually you demonstrate the problems with that >> with that whole idea that >> you you clearly are being empowered certainly financially. Yeah. >> And in terms of independence and all the stuff we've talked about. Um but and I and I believe you when you say that this is good for you and that you're happy and you know and the men in the queue are happy and whatever. I mean there clearly there is collateral damage in terms of the wives and girlfriends. >> For sure. >> I was going to ask have there been people you know who say lost jobs or got in trouble in some way from having come to one of your events cuz often they're not wearing masks. >> For sure. Uh, no. And a lot of people say when these are, you know, they're 18 or they don't know what they're doing or they're going to make a mistake or they're going to regress it when they apply for a job. I've never known in a job interview they say, "Hey, is this your penis? Is this, you know, would you enter in Bonnie Blue on this day?" Like, they're not going to see that. Maybe if you put your face next to mine, they went for a job interview, it might come up in question. But a lot of these people are filming POV, especially the students, and most of them don't show their face. And even the ones that are like, "Oh, I am happy to show my face." If anything, I'll ask them not to because I want them to feel really confident. I want them to feel really comfortable in the situation. Um, but yeah, no one's going to give you a job interview, get up the sex tape, and then go, "That's your penis." And the other benefit of of it is I sleep with so many people, even if they know you slept with me, they're not going to be able to pinpoint your sex tape, or they're never going to be able to prove it's you cuz I always make sure unless they really, really want their face out there, I keep everything really confidential. M so it's plausible that the amount of direct collateral damage that you're doing is quite low. I mean there presumably will be some relationships that have failed and so on but you but you would say that that that's because they had already failed and this was just the catalytic. >> Yeah. And it's not to say he's failed. Um some relationships just don't work because as you grow older you become different people. You have different interests or different hobbies. Like it's not because a relationship has failed. Just sometimes you're no longer meant to be with that person. >> Sure. So, but the direct harm that you're causing to yourself, to other people, is is probably not that high. So, then which which means that anyone who um wants to condemn you on the basis of you harming people >> struggles a little bit. It's actually quite hard to point to someone who like Bonnie Blue has hurt, right? >> What do you think the damage is? Where where is the damage coming into contact with the world in your opinion? >> So, I think the damage is cultural and social. I think it's I think the damage is bigger and kind of harder to pin down. It's not like you can just point to this person if if the only thing you think that is important is consent then you can't really point to a single person and say yeah you know but that's not my view of it. My view of it is that there's like a um you're contributing to a culture that regards sex as a meaningless hobby and I think that that's bad in a broader way. I think you can have both though cuz I feel like I have very meaningful sex and then I have can have some sex but I don't remember the name. >> I've had some meaningful sex on camera as well more when it's a boy girl scene because you're able to focus a lot more. It's a lot more intimate and you have a great connection with them. >> But each one of my either sex tapes or sex events are very different. There's a different meaning and a different purpose of it. But yeah, with the damage I sort of cause, it's always from women speaking and saying how hurt they are. even though I've never touched them, I've never done anything, yet the people that come to my events are nothing but grateful, polite, and say they've had a good experience. And a lot of these women that say, you know, I'm damaging, you skip two videos back and they're giving me death threats. They're saying, I want to turn up to one of Bonnie Blue's events and leave a black and blue. I want to make sure she leaves in a coffin. And I'm like, you're the one in the wrong. I've never hurt anybody and I've never given anyone a death threat or said, I'm going to beat you up or leave you black and blue. I think from what Louise is saying it is very difficult to pinpoint okay if we work very hard on consent and assume that everyone is allowed to take radical responsibility including you for what's going on. Yeah, everybody is consenting unless there is some situation where a person is not fully of their mind or whatever the term would be over the age of consent. It is difficult to point at the first order consequence of this but maybe downstream there is something that is moving the culture in a kind of direction. So I guess an interesting question on that is >> can you imagine a world in which anything happened that would make you question what you're doing? Are there any sort of consequences or repercussions that you can think of that would cause you to second guessess >> the stuff that you're doing? >> If the people I was having sex with was coming to me with issues or saying look it's ruined my life or I'm really hurt by this or I regret it. it's a big mistake. Instead, I just see the same people a lot of the time at these events. So, if the hate switched from the women that don't know me and are poorly educated switched to the men that was at my events or the men I speak to online, I would really reconsider the way I do things and the way I approach things. Um, but even with the whole barely legal things in the students, like the students themselves find it really funny. Like they know they know I'm not walking around the streets going, "Oh my god, give me an 18year-old." They're walking around going, "I'm barely legal." And it's they find it funny cuz they're they're not stupid. I mean, you've got some 18 years that are 18 year olds that are, but you can be stupid at any age. They see how wound up cuz they're much better at technology and Tik Tok and everything than I am and especially their parents. So, they see the backlash me saying barely legal causes and they find it funny. Like, I'll be walking down the street sometimes. They're like, "I'm barely legal. I'm a virgin. Can I get, you know, can I skip the queue?" Um, so the people that say I'm very damaging towards 18 year olds and stuff, they're actually more intelligent than these people making the Tik Toks because they know it's I'm not walking down the street and I'm grabbing them out of school or universities. >> Before we continue, you are probably not eating enough fruit and vegetables and you know it and this is going to help. Good news, AG1 just released their nextgen formula. It is a more advanced clinically backed version of the product that I've been drinking every day for years. So you still get the same one scoop ritual, but now with an even more thoughtful formulation flavor and four clinical trials behind it. AG1 has been evolving since 2010, continuously improving alongside the latest research. And AG1 NextG is the result clinically shown to help fill common nutrient gaps and support gut health even in people who already eat well. In one study, it boosted healthy bacteria in the gut by 10 times. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and try it for 3 months. And if you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. Right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus the 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkagg.com/modern wisdom. So a concrete example of yeah not causing this individual harm but causing a wider kind of harm is when you did the thousand in was it January? Yeah, >> it happened at the same time and obviously caused a lot of media response at the same time that grooming gangs were back in the news because of Elon Musk talking about it primarily and then there was a you know the wrangling over whether there should be an inquiry and all this kind of stuff >> and some people pointed out at the time >> it was not deliberate on your part. Um but what it contributed to you being in the news was this sense that British women are [ __ ] >> Mhm. And that obviously fed into this whole discussion around grooming gangs and the feeling that um the girls have been asking for it. Well, you know, we have this sexually liberated culture. You know, that's obviously the really um the really really unsympathetic view that's taken towards the victims of these gangs. >> Do you feel like you end up feeding into that view of what British women are like? >> No, cuz I mean I don't know how many women are in the UK, but there's a lot more than one. I'm one person out of millions. >> You have this massive international reputation, >> for sure. But I also get told all the time I was not normal. So I'm not there's no part of me that believes I'm to blame if UK people are being called [ __ ] because I'm one person. I say look this is what I consent to. This is what I enjoy. Every single woman is so different. I even do hundreds of Tik Toks saying how lazy women are and how much they don't want to give [ __ ] So I highlight the fact they're not [ __ ] They're quite the opposite. >> I suppos I suppose that's true. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But yeah, it is. I've been asked multiple times if I'm a cover up because the same time I've done something, something big's gone in the news and unfortunately it's been sort of pushed down because my press has, you know, been spoken about more and that's terrible and these much more concerning things in the world to be highlighted and talked about. >> Okay. You're saying that your sex events are false flags to try and drown out some more deserving story. Okay. >> I've been asked if I was a spy before as well. Um, but yeah, like it's sometimes the timing is bad and I'm, you know, it's really unfortunate that sometimes my stories have been spoken about more than things that are honestly dangerous and damaging on society. So your your concern is there's a kind of propagandistic effect of the type of pornography coming out of the UK that might make it more attractive for foreign people to come here or for people who don't fully understand the culture to have an a sense they haven't been able to do what you've said which is I keep on being told that I'm not normal. Something tells me that it isn't the people who don't have an in-depth understanding of what the culture is because the only way they can say that's not normal is to have something to frame it against. This is normal. This is not normal. This is an outlier. But if all you see is the tiny tip of the iceberg when you're not delving that deep into culture, you just see what is the biggest story which happens to be you. And if it's consistently to be honest, you and Lily Phillips like you guys >> in the same part of the country as well. It's funny coincidence. >> What is that is that a genuine concern? >> I mean, I'm not the only person to notice that the nature of porn is it's mostly produced in the West and it mostly features white women and also East Asian women, but that's like overwhelmingly. And I think that one of the things that does end up happening is men in other cultures watch porn. Everyone has a smartphone. Everyone can see it. And they get the impression that this is what white women are like. >> And I mean I know just personally like having traveled to parts of the world where >> you get the most like pornographic style of sexual harassment is what I have noticed. Moroccobian porn related comments and I just thought you're watching porn aren't you? And in your head this is what white women are like. >> White woman equals porn star. >> Yeah. And it ends up being like racist propaganda inadvertently. No one's designing it that way, but that is how it functions in terms of how it affects men's views of what women are like. >> Yeah. I think there is definitely a bigger picture at times. And I honestly I'm not that knowledgeable. I'm not that educated on stuff that's going off in the world or things which you know people can escalate and blame me for. Like I really am a very simple girl. It's I have sex. I enjoy it. I film it. I post it and I live my life. And I say all the time I'm very selfish. I'm not too concerned about what's going off in the world. And that can be very bad. But I also think even if I was to sit here and really care, I'm not going to make a difference. Um, presumably you wouldn't want what you're doing to be criminalized cuz that's that's what you you could say no you're just you're just in it for yourself fine but maybe there's a responsibility on governments to say actually this is this is so bad for like the social fabric that we need to ban only fans ban the events I mean I know obviously you've come into conflict with only fans about some of your events >> yeah if you was to ban it they're going to go to other websites sex porn has always been there so we're very naive to think if we banned only fans and fans lay that these issues are going to stop. You're just going to go to other platforms which don't have as many restrictions. At least with the platforms like Fansley, you have to upload that many consent forms. It's a very strict process. If you're going to go to these other websites and the dark web and all these other places, you don't know what age that person is. You don't know about the consent situation or you know if someone's forced them to be there. But with the other platforms, it is not always safe. But especially from my side, it is a very safe environment. Although one of the things we've learned from the um online harms act coming in recently is actually that now men in Britain have to show have to jump this kind of ID hurdle to get access to >> yeah sorry >> British citizens now have to jump this ID hurdle it means that actually the traffic yeah so you have to show your driving license or something to the and obviously a lot of people don't want to give say porn >> it's scary like yeah but what it's led to is actually a massive drop in uh porn consumption >> yeah it was 47% sent on porn by some. >> So that does actually show that this is elastic. It's not like men are always going to seek out like a fixed >> the frictionlessness is going to cause how much people access it. >> Yeah. And if it's harder to access porn, people will watch less of it. So I think the idea that like this is just I I I agree to some extent that this is an inevitability and even you know Roman wall murals featured pornography and you know this is like a human eternal thing. But that doesn't mean that what you do is always going to happen when you know like it is possible for governments to crack down on this. >> Yeah, >> it is. But I think I mean sex workers have helped reduce rape rates. They have. >> Have they? Do you know? >> I know people always say that. It's kind of like I guess it could intuitively make sense, but it does assume that the reason the only reason men rape is because of sexual frustration. No, there's obviously so many reasons and you know I'm not intelligent enough to name every single one, but having sex workers and having content available does help um a lot of a lot of women and make it a lot safer. But with like porn rates dropping, yeah, there might be 20% that no longer watch porn cuz they don't upload their ID and they don't want the inconvenience of it and it's a bit of a headache, but there's still going to be a massive percentage of that that are now just going elsewhere. They're going to other websites and other platforms. And it goes back to those platforms aren't as controlled and they're not as safe. Um, and not just that, like education on sex should be a much bigger thing um, across all ages. I think that the idea that so another example I think which challenges this idea, which is which is is a common idea that men are always going to do this, that they're always going to find a way. If they don't find it the safe way, they'll find the unsafe way is um, surveys done. I can't think of the numbers off the top of my head, but surveys done of countries which have different models in relation to like street prostitution. Um, so some countries that have the Nordic model which criminalizes the punters and some countries which would have decriminalized or legalized systems can often have like neighboring countries or very similar cultures can have really similar dissimilar rates of men who say that they've bought sex like a big gap in the proportion of men who say that they bought sex. And in cultures where it's completely legalized and normalized, it's common for say men to go to a brothel for a stag do things like that. Whereas in countries where that's not legal, men just stop doing that. It doesn't mean they completely stop watching porn. They completely stop buying sex. But there is a culture change. People do start thinking that it's >> Is there a correlation? Do you know if there's a correlation in those countries between sexual assault? >> Not to my knowledge. I mean, this is a hard thing to study and this is always and I've always said that when because obviously I'm critical of porn, right? And I've always said actually the strongest argument against my position which people do occasionally put to me is if you could absolutely prove that the existence of porn reduce rape for me that would be the most compelling reason to not condemn porn. 100% I think it be the complete opposite. these guy if this you know and I don't know but I'm just thinking of a scenario but if a guy sat there and he feels really horny and you know you could be angry and he's worked up if he's able to access on his phone is able to release himself and a lot of guys after they've released they're like you know what they no longer have the urge if they're getting themselves worked up they're not able to access content it's difficult to say where that might lead to the problem is that sometimes sometimes men who might start off having relatively normal sexual desires or maybe their desires are a little bit weird or aggressive or whatever that they within the normal bounds. What porn can do because obviously porn offers every possible imaginable variety of fetish everything is that they can start using the weirder stuff or maybe the more violent stuff or whatever and they develop a taste for it and they develop a taste for it and it's like they double down their taste. >> This is Mary's law of fap entropy, >> right? And anecdotally, it's hard thing to study, but anecdotally, men like is primarily men do talk about this that they might have had a little bit of an interest in something, but then the porn basically allows them to like massively massively grow that interest and little neural highways become motorways. And this is and and then all of a sudden it's the only thing that gets them off and they get more and more extreme. And to some extent, the porn sites feed on that because they want the para distribution guys. They want the guys who are >> the power users. >> Exactly. Um, and I mean that's not I guess quite as true with your stuff because it's not like well I mean is it fetish material do you think >> is like some of it is massive the gang bangs but in terms of like the sex world there's some stuff I watch and it's like solo content I'm like oh my god that's crazy like they've just got this massive deal up they asked I'm like that's insane whereas they'd watch me doing a gang bang they're like no that's insane. So everyone's got different things which they class as a fetish or extreme. Um, for me I guess it is somewhat of a fetish. Like gang bangs isn't for everyone. Um, but it's not a fetish compared to like some of the stuff I see online or some of like the BDSM or some of the things which I deem crazy. Um, but to some people that's probably normal. >> You do lean towards rough sex and sort of pro-choking, at least for yourself. >> Yeah. Louis, I know that you've done work in the past around a particular loophole with regards to BDSM choking killings. >> Yeah. So, I used to work for a campaign group. Um I'm only not working for it now only because we like succeeded in our goal which was to change the law. But there was a period where um it was increasingly common for women to get killed by men and then the men would claim that they'd consented to whatever had caused their death. they say that, "Oh, I accidentally strangled her to death, but she did consent." >> Um, and this was becoming more and more common as a defense tactic. And so men were often getting really short manslaughter sentences when actually from like it could very well have been that actually this was just straightforward domestic violence. You had no way of knowing that this woman had consented to anything. I'd say the police though, it's not I wouldn't say that's purely porn's fault. I'd say a lot of that's the police. like they wouldn't just be if there's a massive domestic violence and I know some guys could just lose it and kill their partners. But if that was the case, it was probably a buildup. There's probably additional bruises, text messages, phone calls, other things which could say like it wasn't purely because they'd watched rough porn. I think domestic violence, these a lot of other reasons and a lot more realistic reasons. >> Yeah. I think often there was failures happening at every stage and often different >> police or judges or juries were quite credulous and they didn't take um seriously the alternative hypothesis >> for sure >> but I think it was a clear example. It is it's still an issue in other countries. Um, thankfully since the law changed, we actually haven't really had I don't think we've had any men attempting this defense tactic. But, um, it was evidence, I think, of when rough sex and choking is normalized, >> all of a sudden you have juries who a generation ago would never have known anything about this. It would have been like a really weird outside of their realm of experience thing. Suddenly thinking, "Oh, yeah, that's plausible." Like, I know that I know that all the the all the Zuma girls love being choked nowadays. Sure. >> I guess it makes sense that this would be the case. And I think that's a good example of how >> you can look at this just on an individual level and say, well, I'm consenting and I'm consenting that's fine. But it can scale to having really destructive cultural >> consequences. I I do think trying to sort of as I am sitting in the middle here and hearing in a world that pedestalizes radical responsibility, personal accountability, freedom, all that stuff. uh it is tough to come up with a first order push back. It's like everyone's consenting. This is all allowed. That does seem to me to to hold quite a bit of water, which is >> what happens when you start to move culture. What happens when guys start to think, well, Bonnie Blue likes it and she's the most famous porn star in the UK. And then you get to a situation where I do imagine that girls could be traumatized by guys try dudes are nervous in the bedroom and they want to try and perform in a way that they think is going to make them attractive and masculine and I'm going to do the thing you go it shouldn't have been that like it wasn't that thing that thing wasn't the thing you should have been doing and that influence that >> sexual culture influence the reason that we don't tend to typically talk about it is that we don't try on sexual tactics the same way as we see somebody in a cool pair of cargo pants. Mh. >> We that has only been a very recent invention that you would even be able to you know maybe your uncle that was kind of a little bit like chill would have said oh well you know you can do this in the bedroom or whatever and that's it. It wouldn't maybe your older brother perhaps I guess but even that's a bit weird. So this world of um sex technique influence and trends I have to assume kind of really >> it's an internet phenomenon I think >> didn't exist previously and you are you are going to be contributing to that. >> See I disagree. I think the reason is like the porn I make there's the consent is discussed on camera. When I'm talking about being choked I always say hey can you choke me like this? Actually can you do it a bit looser? And I've said from the start, some of these guys when I started doing 18 year old content would come to me and do just that. They'd want to perform. They'd want to go really rough and they'd slap and choke and I'd like, well, hold on a second. You're actually hurting me now. I'm confident enough to speak up to say, "Hey, like just how guys try and perform and really impress the girls." Sometimes a lot of girls will just take it because they want to seem they want to impress the guy as well, make out they can take it. Yeah. And there's and there's so many anecdotal examples I've heard of >> girls who don't have your confidence >> and don't feel able to be assertive in that way and they'll have some some guy choke them and they find it terrifying. Particular if it's someone you don't really know. You're like, "Is this guy going to murder me?" >> Yeah. But they think, "Oh, I'm going to go along with it because it looks sexy or it's attractive." And I always say like >> in porn that's never discussed. And I do think that should change. It should be look in this video. You know when you like watch Americans Got Talent or Brit's Got Talent, it's like don't try this at home or this is done by an expert. Pornhub or other platform should say look within this content that is extreme. The token is done in a safe environment and it's supposed to be a jackass. This contain this program contains strobe lighting effects, right? Yeah. >> But how many teenage boys did try what was on Jackass? Right. >> Like >> everybody in my school >> despite saying this was done by trained professionals do not try. >> Yeah. At least you you sort of know because some of these people that watch porn, they're not intelligent or they don't know or they've gone from sex education at school, which middle-aged teacher, not been laid, and you think, I'm not listening to anything you say. You might have had a quick chat with your parents. Maybe your uncle or a brother has mentioned a few techniques. That's it. You feel as a guy, oh, okay, I just need to try and give this crazy performance. I'm going to rough slapping, hair pulling, and give her this crazy sex. And she probably doesn't like it. She's going to be too nervous to say, but in the sex I have with these 18 year olds or sometimes older because they're not very experienced. I explain to them how I enjoy to be choked, how long to choke me for. No, move your hand down a little bit. And that's all left in. I don't edit that out. I don't crop it. You see that in the video. And discussing consent isn't weird. It's sexy. It's sexy to say to a guy, I really like it when you do this, or can you do this? Or, you know, stick another finger in. Whereas most porn, it looks like this most perfect art performance. And when I used to do porn, I used to do that. I used to edit out all the bits where I've had to stop and get some extra lube or I've had to switch positions because I thought it needed to look perfect and look like everyone else's porn. And then I realized when I started sleeping with 18year-olds, how damaging that is even in terms of the fact I only slept with body shapes that no enough had perfect abs and big dicks because that was what's you know in the porn industry. Then when I realized how I guess lack of information is shared with these people, I was like, I'm going to keep all that in. It's not unsexy to not know how to pull hair or how to choke properly or the fact you can't get hard or the fact you finish really quickly, but it's made to seem unattractive because it's always cropped out and we don't talk about it. Would you ban that type of porn? The really fake style? >> No, but it should just come with a disclaimer. It's like a movie. If you wanted to learn how to drive a car, you don't watch Fast and Furious to learn. >> Yeah. And it's also not damaging to watch that. >> But who's going to make it have a disclaimer? Like, do you think the porn industry should be regulated or do you think it should be >> I think a lot of it is. There's a lot of content I would like to do and I can't do because they're saying it doesn't agree. >> What like >> I'd love to be Well, I wanted to be tied up in a glass box. Um, >> a petting zoo. >> Yes. And I loved the idea. I was consenting to it. Everyone that would have turned up would have been under understood my restrictions, my yeses, my nos. Um, and that's another big thing as well. Yes and nos are discussed before you start a porn a professional porn shoot. You go through every you have a sheet and it has every single thing you could imagine like fingering, hair pulling, slapping and you go through that. That's never shown. You only see the end result. You see the perfect edited part. Whereas with my content, it's very different. It's very, very consensual. And yes, there is choking, but it's spoke about during it. Um, yeah, I think porn should be have restrictions and it should be told, hey, this was done by a professional. Consent was discussed off camera. So then when these young guys are watching it and they go to have sex with another 18-year-old girl that's probably not that confident and going to speak up, in the back of their head, they sort of know the porn they watched did discuss consent and they discussed each other's limits. >> A quick aside, you've probably heard experts like Dr. Ronda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s. They support brain reduction. They support brain reduction. They support brain function, but they reduce inflammation. They improve heart health and are backed by hundreds of studies. It's really tough to get enough through diet. No one's eating that much salmon. Come on. And with Momentous, you know, you're getting the highest quality omega-3s on the market. They're NSF certified for sport and they're tested for heavy metals and purity. 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Like there are a whole bunch of ways in which your your preferences, your personality is is like >> you're like a far right tail on so many different traits. Um that is it really true to say therefore that when men watch your content they're learning about how they should have sex with other women? >> Not always. No. Like my porn really varies. Like I've still some of the cliche I've had sex with my personal trainer and oh I've tripped and suddenly I'm having sex. Like I still do some of the cliche porn but a lot of my content isn't that. Um, but I'm not also saying, "Oh, well, come and watch me for a sex education lesson." And I wouldn't be the right person at this point in time to educate properly on sex. Because I could say something which contradicts that. But I do think more things, especially porn, or whether that's at school or university, should be discussed about consent, sex, people's different limits, things they enjoy. Um, cuz everyone just gets embarrassed about the conversation. Your parents might say, "Look, don't have sex or you have to wear a condom." That's sort of as far as it goes. We're very naive to think one, they're not having sex before 18, that they're not watching stuff online. Um, and they don't know what they're doing. So, teach them. >> Nearly 2/3, about 64% of men under age 25 support making it harder to access pornography online, up for 51% >> in 2013. If young people are becoming more conservative about sex and pornography, how come Bonnie is still breaking records? >> Well, I guess even though you earn so much money, like you've still got >> your audience is not all men by any means, right? Like you've got a fairly small number of men who are supporting you. >> Um I I also sense there's this move against from the younger men. There's this move and women as well against porn. And I suspect that that comes from the fact that these are say zoomers who've grown up on the internet. >> What does zoomers mean? >> Like born this century. >> Okay. >> They were brought up on the internet. They were exposed to porn really young ages. I mean it's often like I think average age is 11 for boys, something like that. >> Crazy. >> And so and they often been exposed to really extreme stuff. And it's it's damaged them psychologically and sexually in that they I mean like what we were talking about earlier with sometimes weird tastes escalating, >> but also often say struggling with erectile dysfunction when you're actually in the room with like if you've trained yourself on porn and on your own hand >> when you're then in the room with a real woman, you might not be able to get it up >> for sure. >> Or having uh unrealistic expectations just not being able to find normal women as attractive because you've become used to watching women like you. And I think that a lot of men have just learned from their own personal experience and just purely selfishly like regardless of the whether or not porn is fair trade, they've learned that actually it's bad for them. >> Yeah. >> And it's probably bad for everyone. Like I mean when it comes to porn addiction for instance, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It's a terrible thing. >> I think even with porn, like you mentioned then they think unrealistic body shapes because they're looking at these women that no, we do it for for a job. Well, it's not a job in most people's eyes, but they also shouldn't do that though. That cuz that's stupid because probably the porn they're watching, their penis is probably half the size of that, and nor do they have a chiseled six-pack. So, um yeah, it is terrible when some guys can no longer get hard because they've watched so much porn or they have unrealistic expectations of women and they shouldn't because one, they don't most probably don't perform like a porn star. Um but I'm not saying porn is the answer for everything. It's there's a much bigger issue problem, but I don't think banning porn is the solution of that. I just think it should be better regulated and more conversations about just sex in general. Whether you can't get hard, you struggle to stay hard, you come really quickly, or maybe you don't come at all. It's should just be more of a conversation and less taboo. So, but people become less embarrassed by talking about it. But should people watch more porn? Cuz there's quite a big chunk of the population that don't watch porn at all. probably more varied porn. You shouldn't always just watch one type of porn. Um, >> that's not going to be the issue though. If you're talking about people who are being educated and getting used to sex in general, a power user or even a normal user of porn. >> Yeah. >> I'm not convinced that they need a varied diet. What we're talking about is like one big group of people who don't use porn at all and then this other group of people who some of whom continue to use it healthily and then some of whom sort of tumble down these darker rabbit holes. >> You could say that with anything. Alcohol. alcohol, chocolate, like it's you can't summarize what one person can do. How I could easily have a couple of drinks and stop. Another person can't do that. They're going to, you know, finish the whole bar. >> Well, gambling might be a good comparison because obviously gambling is legal in this country, but we know that there are it hasn't always been. There's been periods where it's been banned and there are certain things which are banned like the really um sort of predatory end of the gambling industry. And we know that things like the apps can be really addictive and people ruin their lives gambling. Like they'll lose the family home, their marriages will break down, everything. >> And so I I certainly think there should be regulation. I think most people do. >> Um if you're you know I I guess in this comparison like you're like the gambling boss who owns who owns the app that's like >> normalizing this, bringing this into everyone's homes. Like is there not some sense of responsibility? Like he's he's obviously just he's playing by the rules. He's obeying the law. But it's not a subscriber saying to me like, "Look, I've spent so much money on you this month. I'm going to I can't afford to pay my mortgage. I can't afford the food shop." 100%. I'm like, "Look, let's just chat. Stop spending so much money on me. I I clearly want you to be able to pay your bills and do your food shop." So, yeah, when I'm speaking to to guys online and they'd, you know, just sometimes disclose very personal information with me, I would never want to put them in a difficult or vulnerable situation, but I can't be responsible. Have you got >> on that? Have you got an opinion on the financial domination industry? Are you familiar with this? >> About where like find stuff? >> Yeah. So like girls will like a guy will pay for a girl's life and then like completely rinse their bank account. >> Yeah. I mean it goes even more extreme than that. Uh that >> the end of this is typically guys will get their paycheck and then immediately send all of it to a girl. >> Yeah. who drip feeds money back to him as he begs for his own money back. >> Oh yeah. >> Now it's this very odd is this consent? Is this an addiction? Like you are transferring this to them. Yeah. >> A lot of the time the girls that are doing this will have compromising material. I know a friend that was at university with me who was doing this with a guy and she had videos of him coming in a cheeseburger and then eating it and he was married. He was begging her to have £1 so that he could put some fuel in the car and she says there's 50p get the bus to work. Uh and his bank account has nothing in his wife is completely unaware that this is happening again with that consenting adults. This seems to be you know there the I'm trying to find where your limit. >> Yeah. Like morally for me I wouldn't be happy with that. >> But you use the word moral in this conversation. Yeah. >> Yeah. Morally like that's not for me. That that isn't something I'd enjoy. I wouldn't like that. I'm not doing this for power. >> You know what's interesting that uh a lot of what you talked about in the very beginning, your justification was around finances. So, we may have managed to find something close to the bullseye of where your sort of sensitivity sits, which is >> Yeah. Don't make people poor, Chris. That >> Yeah, exact. Yeah. You you may play with my private parts, but not my bank account type thing. >> These I want people to be happy, but then it's weird I say that because that guy clearly enjoys that. And I have got some friends that will absolutely rinse guys for money. and their sort of argument, which is true, if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else. And at least then they know they're going to do it in a very controlled situation. Um, but for me, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with that. And everyone is really different. >> You found a limit. Congratulations. >> For me, I just it stressed me out. Um, and it wouldn't sit comfortably with me. Loads of things will take virgins. I'll sleep with 18y olds. And those girls would probably say, "God, that's disgusting. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that." But for me, I'd be stressed and be going to sleep thinking, "Oh my god, like what if the wife needs to buy some emergency shoes?" >> What do you think that Bonnie has lost by doing what she does? >> From dignity. >> Has she lost anything? >> You've lost some future choices. Obviously, you've you've gained a lot of choices in terms of your finances, >> but um there are now all sorts of things like you couldn't become a teacher would just be one example. >> No, imagine how irritating that would be. What a salary of 25K and 20 days annual leave. >> Like I'm guessing you wouldn't necessarily want to, but like there are certain thing if you ever end up having children. >> Yeah. >> Have you I mean have you thought about that the impact that that will have on them in terms of everyone knowing what their mom >> I've not thought about it really deeply. It is a question I've been asked before. Um, I would like children in the future, I think. Yes, it's going to be difficult and horrible for them for sure at moments, but they're also going to have the most beautiful life. And I know money doesn't buy happiness, but it will buy me so much time with them. I know for most of my friends that still work, their children go to childcare full-time. They miss their first steps, their first words. They can't be there for all their school holidays. They only go on one quality holiday a year. And for some people, that's fine. But when I if I'm lucky enough to have children, I'll be able to take them around the world. They will be able to >> You be a stay at home mom. >> Yeah, I'd be more than happy to be a stay at home. >> The tread wife pipeline >> for sure. >> Um and I have no issue with that. But >> for me, the memories I'd be able to give my children and even in terms of health care and the life they'd live and the security they'd have, they'd be able to do whatever they want in their life as well. they'd have enough money to either invest or never work if they don't want to work or maybe they want to do charity work or like a lot of people when you like sort of don't have money you sort of just go into a job but if you actually had all the money you'd be take a lot longer I think in choosing what you want to do or what you want to achieve with your life and I'll be able to offer my children that but of course it's going to come with backlash and comments but whether you're too pretty you're ugly skinny fat your mom might drive a weird car kids get bullied on um So I think it would be stupid. >> There are levels to this game though >> for sure. Like oh my god your mom's body blue and she set with a thousand people. But um it's yeah they they will get picked on. >> What do you reckon? What do you reckon's the percentage likelihood of you having a family in future future? >> Um I'd say quite high. >> I'd say very likely. Um before I was very fixated on having children and having a family because I because of society thought okay you sort of finish school maybe you go to university you get a job you find a partner you get married you get a house you have a couple of children and that's what I just thought life was and as a whole that is if someone said to you right describe life that is what you would sort of say that's also what you're made to believe happiness is everyone looked at me cuz I I had all of that before with but no children thinking god you must be so happy. You live the most amazing life. And I thought, I'm with the wrong person. Like, I'm happy, but I'm not in love with him. Or I live this life and it looks perfect, but it's not for me. Um, and yeah, it took me a while to realize that, but I've realized it, and that's the main thing. >> Do you think you'd have taken the same path in life if you'd had kids with your ex-husband? Um, I probably would have done some sort of sex work later on, but probably not when the children were still young. And I probably would have lived off my husband's wage for a few years, would have gone to go back to work. I thought, you know what, I don't want to. I want flexibility. Cuz that's the other thing this, you know, sex work offers. You don't have to be very public with it. Like when I did cam work, I could have done that and no one would have known. Or you don't even have to show your face or you could wear a mask. Like sex work isn't always extreme. There's a lot of people that do sex work alongside a normal job and no one ever knows and it's just a bit of extra cash so they can go on nicer holidays. Um, so yeah, I probably would have always done it because it gave me instant flexibility and I know you could do multiple other things and get that, but it's also not very realistic. What's the what's the biggest downside from you being famous? I've heard you talk about uh not really going out alone anymore, for instance. Yeah, like I have security, but that's I think that got sort of not twisted, but people thought it's because people are horrible to me or it's, you know, I can't go out without someone shouting something negative. It's the complete opposite. It's because I can't walk anywhere without people swarm me for photos, people coming up saying hi. And that's men and women, families, women. The women are probably I say the worst, but they're the ones that are coming up non-stop. I even have moms with children under the age of 18 saying, "Can you grab a photo for my son?" Or, "Can we grab a family photo with you?" What do the women say that aren't the moms with the kids under 18? >> Um, a lot of screaming like, "Oh my god, I can't believe it's you. Oh, I love your content. I love your videos. I've seen you online." Um, it's honestly I've received near enough zero hate in person. >> Is that surprising, Louise? >> I think it's not surprising in person because I think in general people um most people don't want to be negative to someone in the flesh. Like if you see me say hi, then they're like, I [ __ ] hate that girl. I'm not saying that they're talking positively about me, but even some of these families and some of these families I literally slate online saying, "Yeah, you stay at home. You don't do anything. You complain." And then I sometimes I was at the airport recently and I saw a family and it looked like the exact family. I mean, this is me judging that I slate online. I thought, "Oh, here we go." And there was quite a out, you know, speaking very loud and I thought, "They're going to say something." And instead was like, "Oh my god, can my husband grab a photo with you? Oh, we find you so funny." And it just makes me realize like the hate you get online. I'm probably the most one of the most hated people in the UK if not you know across all countries at times but in person I am very much loved. So the security isn't because I can't leave the house scared. It's just because I need to be able to get somewhere and I get completely swamped for photos. >> You've probably heard me talk about element before. Come on. Frankly, that's because I'm dependent on it and it's how I've started every morning for the last 3 years. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. 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And right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below by heading to drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. That's drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. >> Chris and I were talking earlier about the fact that we're both very like we don't like negative feedback. We don't we're quite we're quite sensitive, right? We don't and I for me I find this your ability to just withstand that level of to say something like I'm probably the most hated woman in Britain and be quite chill about it I find almost as confusing as your ability to not be repulsed by a bunch of ugly men. >> I don't know where it's come from. I don't >> you always like that? >> No, I'd say I've not always cared what people thought but I've never been this much you know oblivious but so much I don't care >> flippant about it. >> Yeah. Like I don't know where it's come from. And my sister, she's really sensitive. Like one of the hate comments the other day was like, "Oh, that bed sheet." I did like a day in the live vlog and I was at home and they said, "Oh, her bedding was from Sheen and it made her cry." Like she's very sensitive. Um like >> she really likes that bed in. >> Okay. >> Um but yeah, I'm just not bothered. I think it's because I know I'm happy. I know everyone I sort of work with, speak with are happy. So I'm like, why am I bothered about hate comments? And one of the biggest comments I get is, "Oh, I'm actually 47." And I think, "How am I going to be bothered about you judging my age or recently went viral that I'm apparently transgender?" And all these hate comments are just completely made up. And I find it more amusing than I do hurtful. >> Do you ever get I know I personally the criticisms I dislike the most and criticisms that I think are probably true. >> Like when when they're ridiculous, I think, or whatever, but when they're a bit close to the bone, they hurt more. Do you ever are there ever criticisms you get which do sting a little bit cuz they're a bit true? >> Um I mean I get called flatch chested and stuff a lot sometimes and yeah I have got small boobs but I'm not bothered by that I think. Do you have body anxieties? Cuz obviously you're just like endlessly naked on film. >> Well like the top I was meant to wear today was strapless but I have eczema sometimes on my arms. I was like oh actually I don't fancy wearing that today. It's like I clearly do care but not to the point where I used to. Like when I first moved to Australia, I actually wore a lot of oversized t-shirts. I didn't always want to go to the beach. I felt quite insecure and I was sort of bothered. Yet when I started this job, and bear in mind when I did that, no one cared what I looked like. No one was giving me hate. No one was saying anything. Yet when I started this job, even though I started receiving hundreds and hundreds of hate comments, I became more confident than ever because the positive for me outweighed every negative comment. You are aware that that's very non-typical for humans, right? That we remember the criticisms and forget the compliments. We have a negativity bias. And it seems like you've managed to do some sort of Gryffindor only drinks in that which makes it stronger thing. >> And yeah, like Brazilian jiu-jitsu, >> what for most people would be a catastrophic amount of criticism, but >> do you think you get more hate than love >> online? Yes, for sure. in person completely different. But it depends what platform you go on. Like my Twitter is very positive, but if you go on like Tik Tok, especially like my backup accounts or my like my main accounts is very positive, but you go on my additional accounts, they're very negative. So, it really depends what you're sort of clicking on. Um, but there's not many things I I want people to take away from me, but it's just don't care. Don't live your life by judgment. And it's like when you went to school, I don't know if you ever fell out with your friends or you was like, "Oh my god, my friend at school today. I'm going to be sat by myself at lunch." And your parents are like, "Look, just don't care what people think." Or you're just at school, it doesn't matter. And then you come away from school and you realize how silly it was to a certain degree for caring about what people thought about you at school. And if they thought you was popular or not in the popular group, yet even though you realize looking back that was silly to care, then you then suddenly care about what your colleagues think about you at work. And then when you leave that job, you realize how insignificant to a certain degree their opinion was. But then you keep continuing to stress about your current surroundings. But I don't care. And that is genuinely I think one of the best things about me is is I'm not I am sensitive, but I'm not sensitive to the point of I'm aware that I'm never going to look back on my life and go I wish I cared about I wish I cared less about what people thought about me. I'm already in that mindset. And for most people, they can't do that. they're worried about what their colleagues think or what the family think or what someone you went to school with is going to say about their new car or their job they're in. >> I mean, it's such a natural human instinct though to care about your your peer group and about I mean, something that I've um I've often said is that there are there are various ways in which men and women are different from one another psychologically and personality wise and stuff. And even though there are obviously individual outliers, there are quite big average differences. And so for instance, women are less keen on casual sex than men are on average. >> And that means that a culture of casual sex is on balance going to be worse for women and better for men. >> I think cuz men focus so much on them a lot of the time in the bedroom. If it's a one night stand, they're just thinking I think cuz men physically come as well. >> Yeah. It's sort of so focused on on them. And a lot of women like especially myself when I first started I didn't feel confident enough to speak up to be like actually can you do it a bit softer. Can you you know yeah go a little bit to the left. It's partly that. It's also partly that actually most women do have most women do not fancy like really do not fancy the vast majority of men. >> Yeah. >> Like they do not want to have sex with the vast majority of men. Their threshold is really high in terms of who they're willing to to sleep with. Um and you're of course not like that as we've discussed. But I've always said like I don't think that our current sexual culture is on balance very good for women in general, but that I I I believe that there surely is like some unicorn woman out there who is perfectly suited to the sex industry. And I think maybe you're it. Like I think you've got every trait necessary in order to withstand it and do well by it. Um, I guess the problem is not everyone you have to spend a long time talking to you to realize that that's true and to realize quite how unusual you are. And >> cuz I feel bad when other sex workers try and >> like either do the same or think, "God, for me to be a successful sex worker, I need to do that." And that really, right, who I think we all agree is is suffering from this. Actually, um, you're a real one in maybe 7 billion kind of person. who are kind of like the LeBron James of socioexuality and discussed sensitivity. >> If I ever find a boyfriend, I'll have to tell him I'm one in seven million. >> 7 billion. Seven billion. Yeah. >> But I mean, you do get quite a lot of backlash from people within the porn industry, right? >> Oh, yeah. Most of them hate me. >> Yeah. Why do they hate you? One, I've made their fake [ __ ] fan content so irrelevant. Um, they used to think, oh, faking I've had sex with one stranger was going to be the biggest thing of their career. And I've sort of just highlighted one it was fake and second of all it's I'll do a thousand shut up about your one. But they just say I'm some of them have said I promote rape culture. Um that it's dangerous. It's making their subscribers ask for more extreme content. And I get that and I I do feel sorry for them. But if things are changing or your subscribers are no longer interested in you, that's not my fault. That's that's a you problem. You can't blame me for everything. >> I mean it is difficult if you say sex is a resource to be traded like any other and then capitalist market dynamics get applied to that which you have stepped into. >> It is very difficult to say I should not be subject to the same supply demand and competition curves that every other industry is. if you accept that going in that I think the problem is that people get this sort of crossover and this is something that Mary's written about which is >> the world is at a weird intersection at the moment that sex is uh simultaneously completely meaningless and can be done casually and doesn't have anything uh uh beyond the physical action attached to it. You can sleep at him and not catch feels. And also if done incorrectly can be the single most traumatic event of your life that never changes that you're never able to recover from. And squaring the circle is difficult. And I think this is where it kind of meets when you actually see the raw economics of this that you think well if consenting uh workers within that industry are having to up their consensual work ethic, work rate, uh level of work extremity. It would be like having a salesperson who is particularly unbelievable at sales because of one specific tactic, but this tactic is very taxing on their body and very few people can go and do it and now everybody else has got to try and do the same sales tactic. >> Yeah, >> it it is difficult to come up with some sort of ethical grounding where you can defend that that isn't permissible within the rules that that system already had. Does that make sense? Is that is do you agree with that? I mean, I honestly sort of think that actually as someone who is critical of porn and sex and the sexual revolution and everything, you're almost doing my job for me because you're highlighting, you're taking everything to its logical conclusion and highlighting that there are fundamental problems with this worldview. You're like, it's very hard for because there's a lot of people who say that they are in favor of sexual liberation and pornography and so on, >> but they're not in favor of Bonnie Blue. >> It is the redial Adam Surdom thing for everything. So I do think you can be and then see me as too far. Like I also think that's fine. Like I'm not saying you could agree with porn and then sudden you see me and say you have to agree. Like you can completely agree with porn and then look at me and think that's too far and that is okay. Everyone's got their own opinions. It's just when people try to give me facts. I'm like you're not speaking fact or you're speaking opinion. Um, but yeah, these are many many issues with the sort of I guess industry and a lot of content creators say. Um, you know, I they're just no longer relevant and that's and that's my fault. But it's not I get social media banned all the time. I get new restrictions. I have new issues and probably more issues than any other sex worker because I'm so big and so outspoken. I get banned that other content creators don't get just because they don't have the techniques I do. Um, but I adjust and I change and that's what you should be doing with any job or any situation you're in. If you're hitting restrictions, work around it or you change your technique. >> Are you worried about Bonnie as a mother? >> I I would definitely worry if you were still doing it. >> Yeah. >> I mean, certainly like bringing punters into the home. I'm guessing you probably wouldn't do that. >> No. Like even now, I never film at home. I always film at a venue. Um, and I have filmed at home before, but I no longer enjoy that. I was like, "No, I know what my home is. You know, I want to keep my home my home, and I want to be able to separate from that." And not that I've ever needed that separation, >> but I'd always like the fact if I needed it, I'm not somewhere where I think, you know what, I've just been gangbang banged on this sofa. It's >> a separate place and I can if I need a break, I've got the opportunity to have that. you could probably go quite a long way in sort of transforming your identity to protect the kids from the backlash at school. Um different I mean Bonnie Blue obviously isn't your real name anyway, right? Um but um how are you going to talk to them? How would you talk to them about what how you living? How you've got this amazing house? You know, >> no idea very early age. I know that would be very young age for them because whatever age you think your either kids start swearing or they start saying different things at the playgrounds or start watching content, it's probably a lot younger. So it would really depend on the society in at that moment in time. Like you said the current age is 11 that might go even even younger. Um I don't know how the conversation would go to be honest. I don't know what would be you know depends how long if I'm no longer in the industry, how much is still out there, how much I'm still being spoken about, how much I would have to disclose. Um I definitely want would want to disclose everything. I'd never want anyone telling my children or surprising them with what I do. I'd want them to hear it from me. And that's sort of how I deal with my family at the moment. Anything I plan to do or anything I do, they hear it from me. Even with I did a documentary recently and it showed a lot of sex. It showed um a lot of the gang bangs, a lot of the things I get up to and I actually took my family to the screening and some of the journalists was disgusted that my I had taken my family there and it was hard to watch it with them. For sure it was. >> Did you know it was going to be as explicit as it was? Um, I'd watched a rough edit and I knew there was going to be sex in there. I did not know it was going to be as explicit as it was. Um, and I was thinking during it, like I was sat next to my dad, my grandma was there, my mom, my sister, her boyfriend, and there was times where I couldn't look at the screen. I had my head down. >> What was that sensation that came up for you? >> It was me showing my [ __ ] saying, "I've just been railed by x amount of people." >> No, that's what was on the screen. What was the sensation that came up for you when you were sat in the seat? Um, I just felt a bit sick and it wasn't because of what I'd done. It was just, uh, this is the first time my family have really been exposed to this right now when they're sat front row in like this cinema room and they've got journalists behind it. >> I'm trying I'm going to just keep my sort of foot on this point for a second. Beyond feeling sick, >> I I What was the emotion that came up? Like what did you what was the feeling? What was the sense beyond physically how it manifested in your body? >> I was just hoping like my dad was okay. Like I think >> again that's not an emotion. >> Yeah. But I apart from literally feeling sick and thinking like oh my gosh I hope my dad's okay. That was all that was going through my mind and what I was feeling. >> What were you worried he might feel? >> Um I don't know like potentially be disgusted potentially think this is humiliated. >> Yeah. You mentioned front row. So they've got journalists looking at them. So was that feeling of like journalist behind. Yeah, it was it was hard and I would just like I always want to protect my dad. Like my dad is super sweet and I I don't wrap him in bubble wrap at all. They're fully aware of what I do and to the extreme and they're fully supportive. Um yeah, during the whole documentary I was sort of like oh I felt so nervous. I just wanted to say to him like how do you feel? Are you okay? Like >> okay so you did feel nervous there. I'm I'm the reason the reason that I say it >> is >> I want my family to be proud of me and I was worried them seeing that might take that taking that feeling away. Um but there was other parts of the documentary my mom, dad, my grandma, they're all laughing and they're they're finding it funny and they're happy and the other parts they just looked away. But I'm really glad they watched it because their friends have going to have watched it. the everyone in that town would have watched it and if anything was to say anything to them, they're not going to be shocked or surprised because they've watched it and they know what to expect. And that's how I I guess I would treat my children is just always being very transparent with them and sort of not hiding things from them because I know they'll find out. How do you feel about your daughter doing what you do for a living? >> Um, if I had a daughter, I would explain. Look, I'm very different. Most people are going to be very hurt by this. They're not going to be able to deal with this mentally and physically. But if they wanted to do that, I would not disown them. I wouldn't be like, "No, don't do it." Like I said, the main reason I got into it originally was money. Um, yes, that has shifted, but they would have so much money and so much opportunity to do anything they wanted. Um, and not many people are like me, so I can't imagine my daughter would want to do it just because, you know, not many people do. you're the LeBron James app. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> but if they did do that, as long as they understood it's not cuz I think sometimes I make it look very easy. I make it look like it's a breeze in a park and because for me that is and I think that's what can be damaging on society or it can be hard for people online because they see me going, "Oh, I earn loads of money and I'm really happy and I love my life." Most people try and copy it. They're traumatized. The families are upset. Um, so yeah, it's just making them aware. It's I do say it's easy cuz I think of my dad working hard. He worked two jobs. He worked night shifts. He had to work in terrible weather conditions. I'm like that's hard work. Me lying on my back ain't that hard. So it's not hard but it is hard. I was just thinking of that scene in Black Adder. Do you remember Black Adder goes the second series of the TUDA one where it starts off with a a man who's saying, "Oh daughter, we're so poor blah blah blah." And she says, "Yes, father. I'm going to go to London. I'm going to make my fortune." He says, "No, I want you to go on the game. Just make a living lying on your back. It's so much easier. Um, what would you think about your son um having sex with a future Bonnie Blue aged 18 virginity? >> Yeah. No, I'd be recommending it. >> You'd be recommending it >> 100%. 18 year olds when they lose their virginity. It's an unsafe environment. They've probably been drinking. They're under the influence. They haven't discussed consent. They haven't discussed the choking, the hair pulling, and all of that. And that could be damaging for him the next day. It could be the girl comes forward and says, "You hurt me." or it can just be damaging for them because they're made to feel insecure or they're laughed at for whatever reason. Them being sent to a sex worker is a very safe controlled environment. Um, would you worry about your son, because you've said you're an outlier, would you worry about your son contributing to the trauma of that woman? Because most sex workers are not like you personality. >> I probably want to know who they're going to because you could also go to a sex worker that's just an escort and they don't do the crazy things I do. um or like I mean every single person is different and I'd want to I'd want to help them. Um because yeah, I wouldn't want them to go into someone that absolutely hates it and is doing it purely for the money and they feel traumatized from it. So I'd want to help the guy and make sure they go to a se a good sex worker. What would you say if your children of either sex? >> Yeah. >> Um say they became >> uh religious and they decided that actually they wanted to wait until marriage to lose their virginity and do it the traditional way. What would you say to that choice? >> That's fine. Like I think it's sometimes it's lovely when people are really religious. Um I don't have an issue with it. I don't I personally will never be religious. Um but yeah, if they wanted to, they would. But >> never say never, Bonnie. That might be the new challenge. >> I'm burning in this building right now. Um but it's Yeah, if they became religious. I mean, I can't imagine my children would. Um but if they did, that's fine. I think those that do, I think, oh my god, that sex you've thought about for about, I don't know, 25 years is going to be terrible. It isn't going to be good. >> Uh, I remember you, I think you were quoted in an article saying, "I have never confirmed I was pregnant because I would never ever lie about pregnancy," Bonnie added, saying that doing so would be a step too far. Yeah, >> there doesn't seem to be many lines where you would draw and say this is a step too far with uh your self-promotion with the things that you would do, the things that you would say. You've already mentioned I curate my Tik Tok 10second hooks to be as annoying to women as possible. >> What is it about pregnancy that's sufficiently sacred that I would never ever lie about it? doing so would be a step too far. >> I tried for many well about a year and a half with my partner to get pregnant and I was unsuccessful and I found out if I wanted to conceive it'd have to be through IVF. Um which was really hard especially at the time I would not have had the money to go through IVF. I would have had to save up for an you know a couple of years and when your friends around you having children and everyone's falling pregnant so naturally it was very hurtful to to continue to try and even buy like all the ovulation tests to help my chances. It was really expensive and I couldn't afford to keep to keep doing it. Um, so yeah, the press in a nutshell, I think this was like shortly after the thousand was there was rumors saying I was pregnant. It started off on Tik Tok, then it was on Twitter and then Instagram. >> Lily Phillips was um doing the same thing if I remember correctly. >> Well, yeah, the rumors had started about me on Tik Tok and all these other social media platforms. And then journalists started reaching out saying, "We want to we want you to comment on your pregnancy." And we just ignored it for a couple of days thinking, "Well, we're not commenting. I'm not pregnant. I don't know where this is coming from." and it just continued to escalate. So then I decided, okay, let's play into this and then we'll use the extra income we get from the more press, the more views to put towards somebody's IVF journey. So the only thing I did do was upload a photo on my Instagram story of a pickle covered in chocolate and sprinkles and put cravings. And then the following day it was, oh, Bonnie confirmed she's pregnant. Oh, Bonnie's comment on the fact she's pregnant. And I hadn't like there was already 10, 20, 30 articles saying I was pregnant even though I hadn't commented. I hadn't said anything. And that's obviously hurtful. Like I was fine with it, but I knew I couldn't get pregnant. I knew I couldn't fall pregnant naturally. So that obviously wasn't very nice. And then I think like 48 hours after that, I did a YouTube video and just said, "Look, hey, I'm not pregnant." I uploaded one video of a pickle. The journalists seem to think it's okay to make stories up about a woman in a woman's body without understanding my situation. >> Sensitive for you. >> Yeah, for sure. And I can't get pregnant and I'm going to use this money and I have paid for two people's IVF journeys. Um, since then. >> Do you think I remember thinking when you did the thousand that the most reliable contraception on the market, which is the Marina IUD, it has a one in a,000 failure rate, right? Um, but I guess if you know that actually you can't conceive naturally. Yeah. >> Do you It doesn't cross your mind even though I mean obviously the men wear condoms. >> It's not impossible. >> Condoms fail. >> Yeah, for sure. It's not impossible. Um, but yeah, the the chances would be beyond >> if there's less than one in a thousand then >> Yeah, it'd be beyond for me to to sort of fall pregnant. So yeah, that's where the whole the whole pregnancy thing came from. Um, and that's what I said would be sort of be too far. And even that I got backlash when I I then went and did a bit of a press, you know, I think I went to Daily Mail and a few other articles um a few other places and just did some general press. I think I was heading to spring break shortly after that. And I then they asked me about the pregnancy and they was like, "Why do you think it was okay to upload a photo of pickle even though the Daily Mail had already uploaded an article prior to that saying I was pregnant?" And I was like, "So, it's okay for you to say it and to apparently confirm I'm pregnant, but then when I upload a photo of a pickle, I'm the one in the wrong." And then mentioned about the IVF journey. And the woman was like, "Well, you should have just done that without ever uploading the photo with the pickle." And I've said many times, "You don't have to be charitable. If I want to burn the money on clothes and whatever I want, I will. But if I also want to help someone out, I'll do that as well." And that's when I I think I became very aware of no matter what good I do, it will always be twisted. Even that was put in a very negative light. >> I'm interested in that particular area of sensitivity. >> Yeah. >> And you've had uh varying levels of strength of accusation that you're a psychopath or um on other corners of ex that you're possessed by demons. Yeah. >> Um >> would you say the reason I asked and kept on pushing about and what did you feel was to try and get that embodied sense from you as somebody who doesn't seem to have much discussed sensitivity very yeah the tail end LeBron James of socioexuality on the far side. What how would people have described you as a kid? Would you were you an emotional girl? not emotional in terms of crying loads and like really upset but I've always been really happy like and I've recently which has been wrong for me to say like oh I'm not emotional but it's because every time I say I'm not emotional I'm referring to me crying and being upset and it's cuz I live a very easy happy life so it's very easy for me to sit here and say I'm not emotional but >> referring to negative emotions probably >> emotion being happy and smiling and laughing that's also so I am emotional like my I've had the best sort of two weeks of my life and I continue to have the best days I've ever experienced and I'm very happy and very smiley, but a lot of the time that's not shown in like podcasts and interviews because I'm usually being interrogated. I'm being told I'm disgusted and I'm having to defend myself. So, of course, I'm not going to be sat there smiling and laughing. But if you was to watch me, you know, when I'm at spring break and I'm meeting people, I'm nothing but smiling and happy. So people like to pick and choose which parts they analyze me or some of them will say I blinked after I said a certain word so that means x y and zed or I looked a certain way and it's like you know I probably had something in my eye or I got twitchy or I got bored like people think too much into things. Um but I am an emotional person but not in terms of crying. The reason I ask is I wonder how formative those 18 months of trying to get pregnant were >> and it does seem like a bit of an inflection point in your life. And maybe this is just part of a marriage that wasn't right and a bunch of things coalesed at the same time. >> Maybe you did get some sort of realization. Maybe this was one realization that caused a bunch of different torpedoes to be fired at different areas of your life. I'm going to do in terms of a career, what I'm going to do in terms of a future, what I'm going to see myself as, my level of >> sexual openness, my current partner. Um, all of that together plus I would never ever lie about pregnancy to me showed potentially uh laid an explanation that hm how much of this is the blast radius of [ __ ] I really wanted kids and it turned out that I couldn't get them and I'm now >> coping. >> Yeah, I completely see that. But I if I wanted to be with my ex, I could have been. If I then wanted to get pay for IVF, I'm in a situation where I could pay for it for myself now. So, if it was I was still doing this because I'm trying to pay for IVF or I'm wanting my ex back, I'd completely agree. But I couldn't get the divorce through quicker. Um, and I'm not in a situation at the moment I don't want children. I was so fixated back then because I was actually missing happiness in my life. I think I'm to a certain degree grateful I didn't fall pregnant because I my life would have been very different and as much as children bring a lot of happiness for me I was thinking I was more doing it because all my friends was I just got married everyone was asking me a lot including my family like when are you when you going to have children and when you start a family for for yourself and I think I just started to think okay I don't feel overly happy what's missing oh it's children really it was having freedom flexibility traveling and doing all the things I wanted to do, but I kept thinking I was too old to do or oh, I've passed that now or I can't just go traveling around the world and go on crazy holidays. I've not got the money or I've not got the the time for it. I presume that um this period of trying to get pregnant was before you started camming. >> Yes. Do you think then that going into because you talked about how actually before then you had a low body count and actually you were pretty like sexually conservative. Um, do you think that learning about your infertility changed your whole attitude toward sex? Made it more like a hobby cuz obviously that is the way that like humans come into the world is through sex. It has it's in we were all conceived in that way >> apart from IVF, you know, but that's a recent thing. Um, so there is an obviously meaningful consequential thing built into it, but if it can't lead to conception, do you think do you think that's fed into your feeling that it's just a hobby? It doesn't matter. Commoditize it, whatever. >> Uh, no. Completely get where you're coming from. But I was never having sex only on my ovulation days. I was only having sex on the days I thought I was going to conceive. So sex, even when I, you know, wasn't trying to get pregnant, was a hobby with my partner. I did it just for the pleasure. Um, so no, if I was only having sex prior to that around ovulation, then yeah, I'd completely agree. But I don't think as much as it was hurtful and it was a very difficult time when I tried to get pregnant, I don't think it's had any knock on effect. I mean, to a certain degree it has, cuz it's made me, I guess, more sensitive towards the subject, which is why I'm so strong about I wouldn't lie on it. Um, and it's made me want to help people because I think it's horrible that so many people try. I mean, some people they've got six kids, they couldn't give a [ __ ] they're not eating properly, they're, you know, they're tramps and they can still pop out kids. And there's some people that would offer the most beautiful family and beautiful homes and they they can't unfortunately have children. So, I guess it made me more sensitive on the subject, but it's not left me then thinking, "Oh, I'll do sex as a hobby or change my opinion >> on sex." I don't think too deeply on some things. I take things as they are. Oh, this made me feel like this. Okay, great. Well, I'm going to deal with it and then I move on. I don't drag emotions. >> Ultimate basian update thinker there like just permanently upgrading your worldview. What somebody that's dissecting the micro expressions of a pawn star nonypical. Why do you think people are fascinated by the Bonnie Blue question? >> I think it's because of your outlier status. You're so unusual. I mean, I guess in both senses that that you are almost an outcast as well, like you've chosen this. You've chosen to be >> the most hated woman in Britain. Your words >> and >> Yeah. I mean, you said you've said a few times in this conversation that you're not intelligent. I've heard you say that elsewhere. I think you're actually really intelligent. >> I am, but on things that like you won't want me on a pub quiz. You won't I don't I'm not good at geography and all of that. Like, and there's loads of things about the world that I probably should know, but I have no interest in. >> But you're very quick. >> Yeah. Like I'm if you was to question me on sex and 18 year olds, the reason I never >> expert. >> Yeah, I am. Like it's because that's what I enjoy. That's what I do each day. But even with that, these loads I don't know and I don't pretend to know. But I get asked sometimes really intelligent questions. I think don't understand half the words you've just shued used. I don't know what's going off, but like I'm never claiming I know everything. Like I simply don't. >> Yeah. One of the things I've I've I've noticed in how you talk about people is that you'll you'll be you'll be so um non-judgmental about say men being fat or all this kind of the physical stuff etc. Um one group though that you that you are consistently judgmental towards are lazy people. >> Yeah. >> People who don't work, benefit scers, you know that kind of and they're the ones that complain about life the most. And I think you lazy [ __ ] get off and do something about it. leg. Unless your arms and legs are chopped off, you can probably get up and do something about it. And that goes for people other people as well. Like if you're complaining about something, they're the ones that blame everyone else and they're unhappy, they're miserable, and they take zero responsibility for it. Like I take responsibility for my actions. And I have taken my life in my control. And even if I'm talking about to family or friends and they're complaining about something, I'm like, "Do something about it. Don't keep coming to me with the same issues because you're gonna have a very blunt answer. >> You're a very high agency person. >> High agency. What does that mean? >> In that you you set your mind to something and you just make it happen. >> For sure. And a lot of people aren't like that. And I wonder I mean cuz so many people are are interested in you because they see you as strange and they that you confuse them. Do you feel the other way? Like do you ever struggle to empathize with why say some women really wouldn't want to have sex in the way that you do or some people are really upset by negative criticism or do you find more normal people confusing because I'm actually so normal like I >> you know sorry sorry Bonnie I really need to stop you there that's not true >> like aides from you know the >> everything we've talked about >> my dayto-day life you would be amazed like if you knew me say if didn't have a phone, you didn't go on the internet, and you didn't know I did what I did, and you just knew me as a person. You would never add up me as a person does this because I am surprisingly normal. I always say I'm just a girl. I'm actually very simple with what I enjoy. I'm not high maintenance. I'm >> spending money on cuz you've got so much. Like, do you have really expensive toasts? >> Um, I spend a lot on fashion. Like, I really enjoy um sort of the fashion side of things. Memories. Like I would sell every single item of clothing I have to make memories. Like I recently went to the moldies and went snorkeling. It was the most beautiful experience. Like I'd always choose memories over anything materialistic. Um but it's hard to burn through so much money to be honest. So I save a lot. >> I remember look uh Chelsea Ferguson. Do you remember her? >> I recognize the name. >> Admire me.Vvip. She was the girl that founded that which was a early British competitor to Only Fans. >> Oh okay. Yeah. >> Charles Ferggo. the this I'm dating myself a little bit here, but she was sort of the Jordie Shaw world of this. She was huge on Snapchat and she was like a proto Bonnie Blue. Yeah. >> Uh in one way. I'll never forget that she did a stunt that was her outside of her brand new four bed new build house in Darlington somewhere in the northeast of the UK and there was a brand new range and a brand new land a brand new Lambo and the front of the number plates on both sides were Charles Ferggo you know some custom number plate and it said uh all this from showing pictures of my fanny help me put petrol in my Lambo atmy.vip/chellsfgo VIP/ Shellsfoggo. So the rage bait drive clicks through flash on lifestyle and that's in some ways more materialistic. I don't know if I've ever seen you flex wealth. >> Like I mean I've got a Ferrari and I posted that cuz it was quite fun. Like the number plate spells porn. The seats say Bonnie blue. Uh the whole thing is blue. Like >> you went very subtle with it. >> Yeah. Like it's I mean it's like a work thing. Like if that gets spotted around, people take photos, you upload it online. >> Okay. Yeah. Business expense. >> The first thing I asked, I was like, "Does it fit through McDonald's drive-thru?" Since they've said no, I've never driven it. I've got no interest in it. >> I posted that. But aside from that, I don't like share a lot of the things that I sort of spend my money on. Like I want to post a bit more about fashion and and clothes cuz I know if I was watching that as a girl I've been treated on oh how much like I'll go and drop on a shopping trip like 50k and I don't think anything of it. It's just a a normal shopping trip whereas that would have been a house deposit plus more when I was younger. >> What do you reckon you'll net this year? >> A lot of money. A very comfortable living. >> Can you get anywhere close in a range? >> Um no but I live a nice life is what I'll say. Um, >> I've heard you say that, um, I think this is in the Channel 4 doc, so it would have been filmed a little while ago, that you you were currently you were at the time earning a million a month and your goal was to earn 5 million a month. >> Yeah. >> And I thought listening to that, >> once you're at a million a month, >> like what else? What are you going to spend the rest of that money on? It becomes just a numbers game at that point. >> For sure. Like I've always said I want to hit 5 mil and I think I will hit 5 mil a month at some point. But if it came at a cost of my happiness, I'd stop because my life ever since I started earning a certain bracket didn't really change. Um maybe when I went from, you know, 50k a month to 400 there was a big difference and then 400 to the million probably a bit. But even that there wasn't much of a change. Um I don't have like yes I have expensive taste and I do burn through money quite quickly but the main thing I want is just happiness and memories and yes you do need money for some memories like some of the trips I went on was you know we hired the boat for the day and I didn't think anything of it or just a yeah of course I'll hide the boat no I don't want other people on the boat I I want it to myself and things like that is what I'm beyond grateful for like if I was ever having a tough day I'd look back at things like that and think How lucky am I? And lucky is not always the best word because no one's given me this. Um, >> but I do just feel every day so lucky and so grateful to have the people around me I do in the life I live. Um, I don't know. I just to most people I live the most disgusting life. But to me, I couldn't wish for a more beautiful life. >> Beautiful life, Louise. >> To each their own. I suppose >> I believe you when you say that. It's just it's just the wider effect >> for sure. >> I think it helps that I'm selfish cuz I don't care. Like, you know, if someone's saying, "Look, you're having a really bad knockoff effect. You've ruined my marriage." >> Um, I'd be putting on my flippers and snorkel and thinking, "That's your problem." >> You never get that like tummy broiling, hands shaking, like feeling. You never feel um nervous in conflict or those kind of physical sensations. If someone were to say something like that to you, you've ruined my life, Bonnie. >> No, I'd say like I'd want to understand why maybe. Um, >> but you'd be steady like a like a top surgeon. >> It'd be more like I'm going to understand why, but it's not me. I didn't do it. The fact I don't know your name shows I didn't ruin your life. I didn't There's something there's a lack of I think most things is communication. Like if I've ruined your marriage, there's a lack of communication there. And I'm not saying that's every case, but for most things, whether that's friendships, your job's not worked, your relationship's not worked, it's simple. It's communication. >> You were about to say, can I ask? >> Can I ask a basic question? Why did you choose the name Bonnie Blue? Bonnie's quite an old lady name. >> I know. Yeah, I think it's quite nice. It's quite traditional. Um, I wish I could tell you a really interesting story, but I just Googled porn names and it was like a porn translator. Not translator. What's the word? >> Generator. B. >> Yeah. And the word Bonnie Be came up. you put. So, I chose Bonnie and then you chose one from the other side and it was blue. But I never knew it was going to be like this. I thought I was going to be a cam girl. No one's going to know about it. But I love the name Bonnie Blue now. Like it's, you know, I guess quite catchy. It's very easy to remember. I love the color blue. Um, Ver Bonnie is quite a traditional name. Um, but yeah, it was honestly thought within about two minutes, if that. >> What do you think about people that call you a victim? a victim of war. Like these videos, I see women all the time on Tik Tok saying, "Oh, she was sexually assaulted as a ch child. Oh, she's been through all this." And I think you're you think I'm sick. You're sick. You've just found a photo of me on Google from when I was about 10, 11 years old and then made up a sex sex story. You've made up that I've been sexually assaulted. Like, how disturbed are you to do that in your spare time? And the only Tik Tok I've seen that's really hurt me was a video got uploaded of this woman talking and in the background was a photo of me and my granddad that passed away saying, "Oh, he sexually assaulted me as a child." And I think, why why would you ever look at a photo, you've gone out your way to find that and then make up a story and apparently I'm the disturbed one. Um, so yeah, it's some negative comments do get you only that. Um because that went quite viral. It was when I like only just sort of just started and that made me really think, wow, I've really dragged my family through this cuz I chose to do this but >> my family didn't. >> Bonnie Blue is a victimhood status. Louise, >> no. I don't think you're a victim. Yeah, I think that most women in the sex industry are at least to some extent. Like it's it's a complicated combination. Um, I do think that you're really unusual and but there is a problem though, right, with that most people don't know that. They can't tell that. >> The fact that you it can be very difficult to tell at first glance the difference between say you and Lily Phillips. >> Yeah. >> And you you think one smiles, one cries, >> I suppose. So, but sometimes they leave sometimes they leave smiles. Some people can be really good at faking it. And some people as well, it can be when they're actually in when they're in it, they they get through by convincing themselves that it's okay and they will sort of tell themselves a story. Almost like if you're in an abusive relationship and when you're in it, you'll be like, "Oh, he loves me. It's fine." And then it's only later when you've left it that you're able to realize quite how horrible it was. And that's quite a common story in the sex industry. >> Um, >> I mean, do you think that there are women who aspire to be like you in terms of the wealth in particular? women in the sex industry and who are putting themselves through trauma to try and compete with you, not realizing that they just don't have what it takes in terms of the psychology. >> I mean, I've seen it online before. There's obviously people crying. There's been people that have, you know, been hospitalized. Um, all of which then given credit because, you know, people see them being vulnerable and they're like, "Oh my god, that person's crying or that person's gone to hostile." And then I get the hate because I'm not crying or not being hospitalized. And >> it is it's not easy. Like I say it's easy because it's easy for me because it comes very natural and I know my body limits, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to loads of people. It's you've got to do what's best for you and you've got to focus on happiness because you could have all the money in the world. You could have the biggest following. It's all honestly pointless if you aren't happy. Um so I don't think you should ever copy anyone else. And I think that's how I've been able to stay happy as well because no one's ever done what I've done that they've done it afterwards or tried to but I'm not following anyone. Like the things I'm even doing this month, no one's ever done before. So no, I'm not looking at >> What have you done this month? >> This month I've just had a Bonnie Blue Bang Bus made and I'm starting off at Scotland which is at the top of the country and working my way down and I'm going to visit loads of universities to [ __ ] the students. >> Right. So >> on the road, >> not aware of anyone having done that before. So >> yeah, it honestly looks really cool. It's like a blue. >> Of course, blue. It says Bonnie Blue on it. Bonnie Blues Bang Bus in really big writing. >> Mhm. There any legal ramifications about that? >> No. Um I mean my family >> Imagine you must have a [ __ ] attorney law team for this. >> Not really. No. Like you're having as long as I can park up. I mean people have sex in the car, don't they? >> Not convinced that's legal. >> No. Well, maybe in the hotel or their dorm rooms they can invite me in. >> I would get someone to check that >> first. I do think a strong legal council might be a good idea because just Well, my point being that [ __ ] hell, >> I have people check things over like before we do it as well cuz I I understand I like to reach limits. So, I've got to fully understand where that limit is cuz everyone wants to arrest me. Everyone, not the police, but everyone online's like, "I phoned the police on her today. I've reported and I'm like, reported me for what? Like, oh my god, she's slept with a barely legal." the second one and that is legal. So, you're an idiot. Um, but yeah, I do make sure everything I do is is legal because I'd be the first person. Like I see some of the Tik Toks or some of the social media other off girls or fancy girls do to promote their socials. I think, God, if I had done that, I'd been arrested instantly or I would have my socials taken. >> Um, I think you get a harder time. You have more haters because you don't come across as a victim and because you never cry. >> That's why I get more hate. >> You don't any sympathy. Sympathy is such a huge driving force. >> Uh so much so that >> you saying I am not a victim. Victim of what? Uh has not managed to dispel people calling you a victim. >> Yeah. >> Uh >> I think it's a shame because so many people are victims and it's taken away from them like focus on them, help them like leave me you know I'm too far gone as some people say but I am not a victim of anything. I'm in control and that scares people. >> I think a lot of people are desperate to think that you're a victim. A lot of women. Yeah. >> Because they are so disturbed at the thought that you actually like it. >> Yeah. And that is okay. But don't make up I'm a victim or don't make up sexual stories from when I was a child. Like >> it's [ __ ] up. >> Is there anything that you still don't understand about Bonnie? >> I think that you're a marvel of science. We might have to Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm sure cuz I'm sure there's something we were talking earlier about this this scan, right, where you can check, you know, your cortisol levels and all this sort of stuff to >> um to understand the the chemistry of your psychology. >> I mean, I would guess I'd love you to do a big five personality test if you've never done one. >> Why is that? >> It's like a it's like the gold standard of psychometric testing for personality. So, it's things like your consciousness. I would guess you're really industrious. >> I was going to say do a do a some of these words. I don't know what you say yet. >> It's okay. We'll Louise will be able to say bring it bring it down bring it down to well uh do a big five analysis just based on >> my guess. Yeah. Okay. So there so there are five facets obviously. >> Can I add in the fact I love animals? >> Does that affect her? >> Yeah, maybe. Um >> I don't think there's a dimension for loving animals but it probably >> before that gets busted. I mean like I love animals. >> So the five facets are um openness to experience. I think you're off the charts. >> 100 percentile. >> Yeah. Um conscientiousness. So meaning like your how hard you work, like showing up on time, being really diligent, again, off the charts. >> Extraversion. >> What does that mean? >> You tell me like how do you get exhausted from talking to people all day or could you just talk all day? >> No, I I could talk. I get sometimes bored of answering the same questions. Like I did an interview yesterday and it was the same [ __ ] Oh, your family don't love you. Your family this, family that. I'm like, look, I'm generally bored of it. Like I can understand why you'd think it, but like so I sometimes get bored of answering the same things. Like I love that these questions today have been very different. Usually I sound like a robot and it's probably why I become so switched off because as soon as you start the question usually I already know the answer before. >> Drop into the scripted thing I've said five times before. >> Yeah. >> Um so I think probably you are extroverted at least quite extroverted. >> Yeah. >> Agreeable? No. >> I think you're deeply deeply disagreeable and that's part of the reason why which which so agreeableness is like your how much you worry about other people's feelings. >> Okay. >> How selfless you are. How how much you're willing to sort of put other people for yourself. I think again we're off the charts in the other direction >> and neurotic. You're probably the least neurotic person I've ever spoken to. >> Like your sensitivity to negative feelings, how much you worry about things, how depressed you get. >> I mean, you're as you say, you're just happy all the time. Just kind of happy. >> I know everyone thinks I honestly I see many many videos like she must be so depressed, you must be so unhappy. And I'm like I'm I'm not. And I know people think I fake it and you know I could be lying to you, but >> I'm good liar. So, >> yeah. And I'm I'm not like I wish I guess more people could see my life outside of it, but it's not always shown. I don't always have time to show, but I do want to I guess make an effort more so to show what happens when I'm not filming or when what happens when I'm not Bonnie Blue or when I'm out in public that I'm not this massively hated person. Given the little logic puzzles that we've stepped through today, on what basis can someone condemn what Bonnie does given the world that we're in? >> Well, given the world that we're in, yeah, I don't think that you can condemn Bonnie Blue if you're generally in favor of sexual liberation and the free market and just letting all this stuff rip. I don't think you can. I think you just have to accept that Bonnie has followed all this stuff through to the logical end point and is and is winning that game. >> Yeah. um if you I mean it doesn't bother doesn't worry me because I've already thought for for years and I've always said that actually sexual liberation has some really serious costs >> um as does letting the free market rip and so on. So um >> yeah, I've really enjoyed talking to you and you're really likable person. >> Same. I like how you're you know you don't agree with what I do but you're very open to listening because I've had I always say you don't have to agree. I'm It's not my job to convince you and I I'm not bothered. But I always really appreciate when someone can just listen to my side because I'm not just some blonde porn star that's got no brain cells. Like I'm not overly intelligent, but I can explain. And the justify is probably not the correct word because I don't need to justify, but I can explain why I do what I do and why I believe it's acceptable and why it's it's not damaging. So it's always >> good to have people that can listen. I'm not saying you're now going to be queuing up and I won't lend you a blue ski mask just yet, but it's nice to have an open conversation. >> I want to try and finish up by getting you guys to steelman the cases for the other side. You know what that is? Steel manning. So, you know straw man, it's uh I take your argument, I make the weakest version out of it. >> Okay. >> Steelmanning is taking the other side and making the strongest version for that case. So, if you could uh think of the biggest tradeoff or or downside of your worldview being successful, um if your perspective and lifestyle was sort of more widely adopted, what would be the most negative externalities? What's the best case that is anti Bonnie Blue? And I guess Louise, you might be able to start and do what is the best case that's pro Bonnie Blue and also what are the negative externalities of if you were successful with what you wanted to have happen. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, if I had my way, um, I would like criminalize most of what you do and you wouldn't have all this money, >> right? So, obviously personal >> in prison. >> Well, but not for money. Um, >> so that's obviously like a personal cost for you. I guess also that um maybe it is true that for some men access to porn reduces their sexual aggression towards other women or reduces the chances of them going to um bisexual women in prostitution. So maybe I mean I've never really seen that case made strongly, but I think I said earlier in the conversation that if that were true that it did actually reduce sexual violence, >> I would accept it as being the worst of the options. >> Yeah. >> Sorry, the better of bad options. >> Mhm. >> I think sometimes it's hard though because people think it's either got to be A or B. >> It's not always got to be the case. Sometimes for one person something works and the other person it doesn't. or we try and say, "Okay, porn is better to cancel it." But sometimes it's not like everyone tries to be fit in a box and sometimes things are one or the other. Or sometimes it might depend on what day it is and like you don't have to pinpoint yourself to one or the other. >> What is the best case argument against Bonnie Blue and the world that she wants that you can think of? >> Um, I mean, for me, I'm already in it. I get to do what I want and no one can stop me basically. But the one of the main things I want is people that do pay for porn, do pay for sex workers or the RQin for people to be more open-minded about and that they're not disgusting, they're not desperate, they're not here to hurt anybody, they are genuinely lovely people. So that would be the biggest thing I would love to happen. >> No. What would be the case against? >> against. >> Yeah. So Louise's position of anti- porn would criminalize, would monetize. If you were to make the argument for that, is there something where you think, okay, this is the best way that I could justify what Louise is saying? Can you see the other side? >> Yeah. Like I mean, I think a lot more restrictions should be added like it's this was done by a professional either speak to the person. It should be like a a clause beforehand. Um I think it's hard cuz I think a lot of porn is very heavily regulated. um and the amount of consent forms and IDs you've got to upload but as a whole just greater education um I think you do see that complete wild west porn is is bad even if the indiv individuals are consenting do you think that there's a cultural harm done if we had completely let rip you know watch it at any age watch anything you want do you think that there would be a significant downside from that >> yeah I don't think it should be any age but at the same time people are watching porn a lot younger than 18 and it's they're also having sex so you know you could stop watching porn I mean you could they make so many restrictions you can only watch watch porn once you're 18 they're probably having sex those younger than that though so who's educating them on them younger years and I'm not saying porn's the best place to educate them but something needs to fill that gap >> I have got an example that brings this into sort of my area of expertise which is bro science and I'm going to talk about fake natties you what that is. It's not to do with boobs. It is uh guys who are in the fitness industry and have achieved a very admirable physique and claim that they haven't done it without performance-enhancing drugs, but they have used performance-enhancing drugs, fake naturals, fake natties. Um what the argument against fake natties and specifically the sort of ethical argument is these men are creating an unrealistic expectation of what can be achieved naturally which inevitably means that any guy who tries to do what they do feels inferior. They're going to fall short. The costs of trying to do what this person has done with peeds >> is unattainable. Therefore saying that you didn't use them is giving them a false sense of hope. Also, if you then come out and say that you did use drugs, there's often an accusation that this person is now encouraging the use of testosterone because they have an admirable physique in this person that downstream effect of using uh hormones on yourself as a guy. >> I wonder whether you are kind of not the fake natty because you're completely open about it, but you are the testosterone hyperresponder of the sex world, which is your results may vary and Bonnie's are the most outlier that you're going to have. Most guys, most women would not be able to sort of run the cycle that you have, as in run the testosterone performance-enhancing drug cycle, and survive in the same way that you have. Most girls >> would not be able to live the life that you do. And I think when we're talking about like without exaggeration a one in 3.5 billion outlier, lots of people would ask the question, does it make women want to emulate her or warn them off of her behavior, not do it? But the issue is you are so non-representative, there is no warning those people off because there's no negative externalities that happen within this system that is you. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I tried to bring fake natties into this. But >> no, I I get it though. Like the good thing is I'm very transparent. I'm very open. And >> I don't think you're transparent about how weird you are. >> Yes, I would agree. We >> did say earlier. Yeah. Cuz you did say earlier I'm I'm really normal. I swear I'm really >> honestly anyone like so a lot of people that either work with me or my friends when people that know they either work with me or they know me. One of the first questions they get asked is, "Oh my god, what is she like?" And they're like, "She is surprisingly." >> But you're surprisingly normal. This is exactly the same as me talking about Jon Jones or actually not Jon Jones, that's a bad example. Tom Asenol who's UFC champion. I go, "Oh, he's a normal guy. You know, he sits down, he eats dinner, he plays with his kids, he does the thing." It's like, yeah, but he also beats people up that are over 200 lb for a living. Like, this guy has a very specific skill set within a very narrow domain. And yeah, he's normal outside of that, but is also within that a world champion. So I I think I would encourage you to to check check your thinking for one of a better term on I am not that weird because nobody else you've already said yourself nobody else has been able to do what you can do. The people that are trying to go in your power this is the same as you having unbelievable natural strength and being able to squat. There's a guy who recently broke the deadlift record. um no one else in the planet has ever been able to do that and somebody else trying to do that will snap themselves in half trying to chase it. He is a 1 in 3.5 billion uh human. Yeah. >> And I do think >> that creates a an odd sense of the cost that other people would pay if they were to try and do the same thing. >> For sure >> because you do not deal with the situation in the same way. Like largely you're inhuman in the way that you are dealing with >> what is going on here. Is that is that >> I think I guess >> fair >> it'd be easier if I did struggle a bit and I could open up and say look it comes at this cost. It comes at me crying myself to sleep at night. It comes at my family are you know upset with me and I'm dealing with physical issues but that isn't the case. Like for me it really has been an easy ride and but I do always like to try and make it as clear as possible. This is not normal for most people. I I am a normal girl, but in terms of the way I deal with it and the way I've able to manage it all, yeah, to a certain degree isn't normal. And I don't have any tips, >> as much as I wish I could say, look, if you do want to do this, here's some tips on how to manage it or how to be successful in it because >> I don't know. I just >> You were just constructed for this sort of LeBron James of porn. >> Yeah. >> Louis and Bonnie, thank you very much. It's been really uh it's been really interesting to see. I do. Do I wish I don't I don't wish that I could have come away from it and said and you know I saw the second set of eyelids open and close or you know there was there was something in there that showed she was being contrived or seemed to be playing some sort of a game and that is where the fascination I think and the questions will continue because it is easier for people to assume that there is something being hidden then holy [ __ ] I just do not have a model for how this person's mind works in this way and >> if it was probably any other industry that wasn't so heavily moralized. >> Yeah. >> I think people would be fascinated but for different reasons. They would be fascinated in the same way that a chess grandmaster or an elite strength athlete or a psychopath killer or you know anyone that's like >> I have no understanding of how this person's mind works. Um, but because it is wrapped up in some bravado, a lot of exposure, and a very heavily moralized private thing that's now been commercialized and made public. Yeah, you are the reductio adabsum of the sexual revolution. I guess >> you're the spirit of the age. See, my brain honestly not much going off in the best of times. Like it's a very simple brain. Um, but yeah, and I sort of get what you mean. You can't walk away going, you know what, I completely saw Bonnie's side or actually I saw a different side of her. Yeah, you would have seen a different side of me slightly, but it's as a whole, I'm just a nice person. I'm always open for a conversation and I'm not going to come in and go, you know what, I want to [ __ ] all your camera crew and I'm going to turn this into a gang. >> Please don't. Please don't. Please don't. >> And what's the big table for? But I will make jokes and remarks, but I don't just walk around having sex with people. I don't just, you know, instantly bend over or assume I'm having sex each day. It's as a whole. It's to a certain degree two people. Well, thank you for coming on. I appreciate you both for having me. Thank you. >> Thank you very much for watching. In the corner, there's a full length episode just between me and Louise available right here if you still got any gas in the tank. Oil in the keg.