The Mindset Behind 50 Marathons in 24 Days | William Goodge

You're going to do 50 marathons in 50 [music] states in 24 days. >> Correct. Yeah. >> This is a whole new level of insanity. [music] >> This is Mission America. William G. >> William G. >> William ran across the [music] entire United States. >> Fastest British person ever. >> He's an absolute beast when it comes to ultra running. >> On paper, this should be the most difficult [music] thing I've ever done. The level of intricacy and detail on this is unlike anything I've ever done before. So, has to flow exactly right. How do you think about that [music] and prepare yourself? >> I think a lot of us move through life with fear and [music] a lot of the time fear stops us from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals. So, I have the most simple phrase, can I take another step? The answer is always yes. >> Well, it's good to have you back here, man. For round two, uh I'm one of your biggest fans. Uh you keep raising the bar on your challenges, challenging yourself. Uh, and the latest iteration of this is very difficult to get my head around. >> Many people have run, I don't know how many, but more than a few have run 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. We all know Dean Carnaz's uh he's probably the most celebrated person who's done it and he wrote a book about it. I know that book was very influential on you. Do we know how many people have done that? >> I have no idea. No. >> Yeah, I would imagine there's a handful at least, right? >> Yeah. And they'd have probably done it over like a period of years as well cuz there is one record for a lady that's done the fastest uh average time in all 50 states which I assume would be actual races. >> Yeah. >> Right. But with no time limit on or like doing it in a calendar year or something like that, right? >> But what you're about to embark upon on October 3rd is at a whole other level. You're going to do 50 marathons in 50 states and you're going to do it in 24 days. >> Correct. Yeah. The only thing is I'm starting October 9th, but >> Oh, October 9th. Sorry. Else is gold. [laughter] >> October 9th. Um, >> it's difficult for me to even get my head around this. Uh, not only are you kind of having, you know, cutting in half uh the amount of days that Dean did it. It's It's like then one more day. Like you could have said it for 25 and said, "I'm going to cut it in half and you went to 24. I'm curious around that." Uh, this is bananas. On most days, you're going to be running two marathons in two different states, but on four occasions, October 17th, October 19th, October 25th, and October 30th, you're going to be running three marathons in separate states >> in a 24-hour period. >> Yeah. >> How is this possible? >> Well, it is possible cuz originally I was going to try and do it in 20 days. That was the most extreme version of this. But in working with Goodwin, my premier partner, they've figured out sort of the best way around the country of doing it. But also, there has to be some kind of time allocation for if anything goes wrong cuz we're we're driving a lot. We're taking commercial flights and we're taking uh private flights as well. So, if anything goes wrong, like a car breaks down or a flight is delayed, that knock-on effect, domino effect could ruin the entire thing. So making it 24 days has allowed >> a buffer. So you have it's basically a 4day buffer >> knowing that if everything goes to plan that you possibly could do this in 20 days. >> Exactly. Yeah. But cuz we're we're tied to finishing at the New York City Marathon, which is obviously an epic event to finish at. 60,000 other people running. It's not just me >> in New York. Hopefully some people would turn up, but it's like a a really cool celebration. and I did something similar in the UK when I finished doing 48 marathons in 30 days at the London Marathon, >> right? >> So, it it adds a level to it. Um, but yeah, the the pressure is on from the very beginning, like each marathon has to be less than 5 hours, otherwise we're in trouble. So, those days of three will be will be interesting, but I've run those distances before. And it adds to the madness of it cuz running across country like point to point I've done that quite a few times now >> and this is this is going to be it's going to be crazy but in all of the right ways. >> This is a whole new level of insanity. >> Yeah. >> But it's also the most kind of aura farming googecoated ultra mog that I could possibly imagine for you. Like it's kind of perfect. You're the only person uh who can do this. Uh and you're doing it once again with uh your own kind of like bespoke unique Guj Flare >> because your primary partner is basically a like a digital logistics company for private aviation. Right. So this is providing you with access to PJs >> uh to supplement the travel. There's this elaborate map where it shows where you're going to be on every single day uh that you shared with me. Essentially, it's some combination of commercial aviation, private aviation, and driving in a van. >> Uh, and that mix is going to basically allow you to be in all of these places. >> Uh, and just the elaborate nature of the logistics here, like the it's it's like a military operation essentially in order to pull this off. >> It's completely insane. and um Robbie, friend of yours, very close friend of mine, Robbie Ballinger, and Jason, the guy that helped me across Australia as well, former Marine, >> they were looking at the plans when we were in Colorado recently, and they were just they were mind-b blown cuz the level of intricacy and detail on this has to has to flow exactly right. >> Um traveling so much, making sure we're on time, etc. So, yeah, the level of detail and the people behind the scenes working on this is unlike anything I've ever done before. People think when you run across a country it's like the planning must be crazy. I'm like dude I go on Google maps and have right >> Perf going to Sydney and the walking >> you have to make sure the RV you know >> Exactly. >> has a GPS or what you don't even it's like you're going straight for like you know 1,000 miles. >> Yeah. And there's no like there's no exacting pressure other than that like the limits of what I've said I'm going to do it in. So I'm going to run 60 miles 70 miles in the day. This is all exact exact move on >> next place next time. next stop. >> Yeah, it's sort of like a special forces operation. How many people contributed to kind of nailing down these logistical plans? >> Well, to be honest, there's probably around 50 people involved in total across all like partners cuz we're doing it with GoFundMe are getting behind it, Stand Up to Cancer. It's going to be a full fully functioning website that's going to be insane and quite gamified as well, which is really cool. And then the team at Goodwin, I think there's I think there's 50 employees and a lot of them have been working on this one way or another. And then my own crew, PR, >> you have your core your core guys that you've taken on all of these journeys. >> Yeah, it's the best team I've put together. I'm really excited about it. >> Robbiey's not going to do the whole thing though, right? >> He's going to do the first half and then him and Jason are going to overlap, I think, in Chicago. They'll do a couple of days together and then Jason will carry on for the rest. But I've got one of my closest friends, Peter John, former military guy as well. >> Right. He's the guy with the longest hair. Right. >> Yeah. Paratrooper, rock and roller, >> loves going to Berlin, parties, has his own like >> luxury brand. He is he's one of the funniest BS I've ever met. Complains about everything, but there's there's a few people that can complain about everything and be really funny at the same time. [clears throat] >> Mhm. >> And he's definitely one of those characters. So like having military people around for something like this is obviously perfect cuz they're that way hardwired and then [clears throat] Robbie having >> they're not going to freak out when you know there's a thunderstorm or something unforeseen happens cuz you've done enough of these to know like >> they don't go to plan like stuff's going to happen. So you're wise to build in those extra four days. >> Exactly. >> Especially when you're relying on commercial aviation. >> Yeah. That is >> you have no control over how that goes down. >> That's the testing one. And also like widening it out has meant we can go to like great cities within those states rather than kind of doing it in the middle of nowhere cuz a big part of this is going to be opening up to anyone that wants to join for the first 3 miles. We're going to be doing like a three mile loop in every single state so anyone can come down be part of it and then me and the crew will >> take off and do the rest. The map that you shared with me showed all the there's like dots on all the you know state locations but it did it wasn't specific about where and I was curious like are you just going to be you know coming in on a PJ and doing it around a landing strip and then taking off again or that's interesting like trying to make sure that you're in some kind of urban center where pe where it's accessible for people who want to >> drop in and join. >> There are there are some that will be close to air strips but we'll do it outside. Um, but like California, we're doing LA in LA. We'll be doing it along Santa Monica Beach. Miami will be doing Miami Beach. We're in Dallas for Texas. Um, South Dakota, we're going to go past the uh the president's the president heads. What are they called again? >> Oh, yeah. Mount Rushmore. >> Mount Rushmore. So, we're taking in some epic locations. Obviously, the big one in Hawaii to start will be great as well. We're in Honolulu. >> Are you going to run the Honolulu Marathon course? >> I don't know exactly yet. the course the the routes are being finalized. We've got them all through, but some of them need some editing, but like I said, they're going to be in major cities or interesting places in each state. You have, from looking at the at the map, it looks like there's at least five commercial flights, five or six, three uh private jet flights, 49 transfers. All other transitions are some mix of driving and flying. Uh there's an interesting kind of doubling back at one point like you're in Ohio and then you're getting on a plane and flying to Arizona. Like you're the whole thing is you're starting in you're starting in Hawaii and you're moving east, right, to end in New York City. But at some point >> the logistical wisdom was we need to do this in order to make all of this work. Like it really is like this Jenga jigsaw puzzle sort of deal. >> Yeah, it's it's insane. The more you look at it almost the more confusing it is, but the more it works out. It's uh it's impressive what they've put together. Sometimes we have to be in certain places. Like there's um the biggest conference for private aviation in the US is in Vegas for the date we have to be there. So we're going to like run through the convention center, get people going crazy about that. >> This is [laughter] like primed for this is like, you know, prime YouTube content. I assume you have a full film crew like documenting this whole thing. >> Yeah, we'll have we'll have a team there as usual. >> This is a a high budget uh affair. >> Yeah, it must be. >> You have Goodwin as your partner. Like who's paying for all of this? >> The Goodwin are getting behind it. Yeah. >> Do you have I assume you have a bunch of other sponsors. >> Yeah, I'm I'm with Whoop again. Well, I've been with Whoop for I've worn one of these since precoid. So, I've always worn them. Humantra and Electrolyte Company. We're going to do a collab product together with my own company, Riskier, >> which will be cool. >> That's your sunglasses. >> Yeah, exactly. And then we're bringing out a full range of kit for the for the event itself. We've got like tours. You think of Metallica going on tour. Uh-huh. >> We're going to have like quite rock and roll t-shirts with every single state. >> Make the merch stand in each state. >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Oh my god. >> But we're also from those specific TE's as well. We're going to do like a $10 donation from each sale to go to the go to Stand Up to Cancer as well. So, there'll be some some give back there as well. But >> yeah, it's going to be it's going to be mega. Once again, uh the motivation behind this is very much rooted in your relationship with your mom who passed away from cancer. And um how has that kind of philanthropic aspect of what you do changed or or kind of uh matured over the course of the many uh ultra conquests that you've been involved in? Yeah, at the be at the beginning it was what got me into it cuz the the Christmas after she passed away I was uh in all sorts of mess obviously and I decided to get out of Christmas by running a marathon and I raised money for McMillan Cancer Support who she had raised money for before helped me and my family through what they'd been through. Um, so I went out in that marathon and raised like £20,000 and I had this light bulb moment of like, okay, I've just I've just ran, which is something that's really helping me personally like deal with the loss. But then at the end of it, there's this funding for an amazing charity helping people. And then immediately I was like, what can I do next? Which then led to 8 months later running the length of the UK, John Salan's End. And for me, it's matured in the sense that I started running because I needed to. I had all this pent up aggression, anger, sadness. I was 23 at the time, so you're mature enough to be able to make your own decisions, but I think as men especially, we're we're not quite there on a level of maturity yet. So, there was two very clear paths. One of absolute self-destruction, which I could have definitely done and been given like a free pass at, or the other one was to to use it to celebrate her and the woman she was and how she raised me to be a man. >> Mhm. So, we've always raised money on the things we've done because then it's less like a an egotistical adventure of like, oh, look how look how great I am that I can run thousands of miles and it looks cool. Like, the outcome is outside of myself and it can it can really help thousands, hundreds of thousands of people with the with the funding we we make. So, it makes it a a beautiful end that's never quite going to be an end cuz I feel like I'll always be be doing something in that realm. >> But this is the first time that you're working with Stand Up Stand Up. Yeah. >> Uhhuh. I mean, they're kind of like the premier leading organization. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, it's it's it's not just support, it's also research trying to rid the world of this disease that affects one and two of us personally is if we're going to get it or that means that everyone's affected by it one way or another. like everyone knows someone that's had cancer, got cancer, living through it. So, anything I can do to give back in in that world is a is a privilege. Um, and yeah, it's quite it's quite humbling to be able to do that as well. It's the it's the best thing that's come out of anything I've done personally. I've been able to deal with that loss and make it more of like a celebration now where at the start it was I was basically trying to beat myself up. I was I was looking for a way of self harm that wasn't too uh wasn't too scary to like people around me. Um but >> that feels more like sorry to >> step on your words. Um but just I want to kind of like double click on that a little bit. Like it's one thing to grieve and be sad but my sense is that there was a sense of anger or uh like confusion there. there's something more going on there like that this >> a lot of people you know suffer the loss of a parent at some point but for whatever reason like this seems like it landed extra hard on you and I want to understand that a little bit better. >> Yeah. So outside of just losing your mom in any context which is terrible timing was bad but also in our family she was the least deserving. She hardly ever drank, never smoked. She was a nurse. She was active. She ate well. So for her to get it and people understand how I live and my dad loves going pints and stuff. Not saying that anyone else should have got it, but it was like um it was a real sucker punch that she was the one that got it. Had to deal with it three times and then eventually passed from it. So yeah, I had a lot of pent up anger. Why? Why her? >> Mhm. >> Um we all say as like a family if we could have taken it, we would have taken it ourselves. Like my dad, my brother, and me. So yeah, it led to it led to me needing an out an outlet to get rid of that rage. But because I loved her so much and she was an amazing woman, I I couldn't let it be destructive cuz then I'd have been using her as an excuse for destroying my own life, which was unacceptable. >> Not exactly uh a great legacy for her. It's not fair to her legacy. Yeah. Did your brother take it as hard as you did? >> Yeah, we did it in different ways. We we're men, so we didn't really talk about it too much. We've got We've As the journey's gone along, we have >> British men. >> Yeah. Yeah. British men for sure. Um but he's been involved in a lot of the things I've done. He understands it. He's grooved in his own way. But we've all found some level of peace or acceptance. You can't change the things that have happened. You can only change how you move forward with it. So >> Mhm. And do you still every year on on her birthday run the number of miles that she would be had she survived? >> Yeah, I sometimes do kilometers, sometimes do miles, but yeah, last week I did 62 miles for her birthday, which is outside of it just being like good for what I've got training wise. It's like a moment for me where the reason I love running is because it's an escape from being by a phone or having something to do. You're just free in your own world. So for those 62 mi or whatever it took me 10 hours, I can just reflect, be with her, be out in nature, which she loved gardening and being out and about. So I get to have that I get to have that like journey with her. Um, so yeah, it's a it's a beautiful thing I do and a recognition and we raise some money again for Stand Up to Cancer just through that. [gasps] So it's like a little present that I'd give to her. So people uh can contribute to this on the GoFundMe uh or directly to Standup Cancer. How does it how does it work if people want to get involved and contribute? >> Yeah, there's going to be a full website and a a big donation thing going directly to Standup to Cancer through GoFundMe. Um but a really interesting thing we're doing and I noted it a little bit earlier about like gamifying it on the website. We're going to have uh leaderboards for like the top states that have donated, the top individuals, [clears throat] and then there's also challenges that people can do. It's going to be running every day for 24 days or running 50 miles in 24 days, which I think is going to link to Straa. >> So, you can sign up to that. There'll be a leaderboard for people's miles. Um, but also people can fund raise as part of what I'm doing as well. So, people might have their own stories which we'll celebrate along the way. So all of that will funnel towards this this big pot that I'm doing, but everyone involved will uh will be seen. And there's an example like we're going to do these tortes, but we're doing a specific one for Stand Up to Cancer. If you donate $100, you'll get a free t-shirt. And then there's higher tiers to to what you get. But yeah, we're trying. For me, this is like this is a huge opportunity to raise a lot of money. like the the amount of people that are involved, having press, local press around the place, I really feel like I can make a big impact and we can raise a huge amount of money for Stand Up to Cancer. So, yeah, it's um it's a privilege. It's also a pressure, not just doing the doing the thing, which is obviously quite hard already, but >> yeah, you're you're a steward of this movement and there's a responsibility to make it successful. >> This episode is brought to you by Airbnb. As summer winds down, crowds thin out and the events arrive, the marathons, the festivals, the games, and suddenly hundreds of thousands of people are descending on a city for a weekend. 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Like there's so many uh interesting characters and just outlandish performances that we that we are bearing witness to even in just the last like you know 12 months. >> Yeah. There's a lot >> the whole world is now paying attention to this >> you know very tiny subculture of athletes in a way that didn't exist like the last time we sat down together. you know, you can run across Australia and it's a big armed >> but not that many people were kind of following like if you weren't kind of already coded for like that world, you weren't really watching it as it was unfolding. There's like kind of a big press thing and then it goes away. But now because of like Max Joliff and Rachel and Entreken and like some other characters that are emerging on the scene, Mark Dowel like this whole backyard thing like which brought in all of the gym bros and the hybrid athletes. So like a whole other sector of like individuals and athletes and fitness freaks are like paying attention to ultra running. >> Yeah. >> In a really cool way. And so there is this kind of opportunity that's for you right now with how you're going to tell this story that really I think could capture the hearts and minds and the imagination of like the entire world because it's so outrageous but it's also flash. You know, you got the planes and you got like you have said last time you were here, I think I asked you like how do you break it down the difficulty of these things between like mental and physical and you said >> it's 100% physical and it's 100% mental. But this is 100% physical, 100% mental and 100% logistical. >> Yeah. >> And 100% like being committed to the telling the story at the same time. >> Yeah. It's like I said, it's the pressure, but I understand the position I'm in, which is why I want to throw the kitchen sink at it, as it were, and try and get the message out there as much as possible and raise as much money. >> It's not just a a pointto-oint thing. >> It is, as you say, it's it's pretty Hollywood what we're doing. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, it's been the perfect melting pot. I've obviously been doing this since I was what, 23, so it's been 9 years. And back then, I before I did it, I didn't know what ultr running was. And now it's become this this thing that most people now understand and people are doing incredible and crazy things. Ironically, Mark came out when I was running across Australia. Uh uh America. >> Mark D. Oh, I didn't know that. >> Yeah, he was one of the only pe one of the Well, there was a few people that came towards the end, but he was one of the early guys that came out >> and then witnessing his journey and him just running nearly 400 miles in 4 days or whatever it was is >> is insane. And he doesn't like you, like he's very different from you, but he doesn't fit the mold of like what you think an ultra runner looks like. You know what I mean? He like looks like a linebacker. >> Well, he used to play American football, didn't he? I know. Yeah. >> So, it's it's interesting, but it also shows that >> how things used everything evolves, right? It's even even you can talk about Hierrox, how they used to be like the CrossFit guys and now like professional runners are going in and beating all the time. So, it shows that even even though ultra running has been around for quite a while, it's now evolving and changing and different people are doing it, which is beautiful. And it shows that anyone can do anything. Back in the day, a marathon was like the peak of human endurance. If you knew what an iron man was, you'd understand how much bigger that was. >> Yeah. >> But now it's like regular regular people. I consider myself a regular person >> um are doing these amazing things. say, >> "Yeah, you have Harvey Lewis, full-time high school teacher, you know, [clears throat] who's just, you know, at his what is he 49 now or something like that?" Still like, you know, >> he's the mentor to the next generation, but he still kicks their ass most of the time and he does it with a smile on his face. And >> then you have like Mark Dowel coming up, you know, under his, you know, kind of uh example and and acquitting himself with such maturity and poise. He's almost like a personal development guru. the way he shows up on social media. He's very empowering and like these are the the this is the new class of athlete like where I can like celebrate social media because he's propagating such a positive message >> and Rachel Entreken the same like >> you know her wanting to do it from a place of joy and like like herself when she's crossing the finish line like these are like really powerful important messages that transcend just how insane the athletic performance aspect of it is. Yeah, it's becoming it's becoming more more it's being viewed by everyone now and it's good to have these different characters in uh elevating the sport. >> Yeah. Uh I I mentioned this before so I won't belabor it um on the podcast for people who have heard it, but I was at Trailcon recently and you know there's like a week of panels and like events leading up to Western States up in Tahoe. Um, and a big kind of recurring topic of conversation is like what is the culture of trail running now? Because you have the OGs who are used to it being a certain way, a very kind of grounded granola low-key, you know, no no flash kind of experience. Um, and their attachment to that, uh, as you know, this sport has emerged. And like at Trailcon, there's just like it's a it's a commercial operation. like every brand is there with booze and all kinds of stuff going on and it's just changed a lot. But it's the people that define the culture, right? You can't you can't dictate what the culture is and you have to allow it to be >> what it wants to be based upon the people who are like inhabiting it, right? And it's a different sort of archetype of individual now that is either ultra curious or kicking ass at the highest level in this sport. And it's not one thing. You've got the backyard ultras. We have what the kind of things that you do. You've got the, you know, helicitabayes. And you've got like the, you know, the the the the kind of gold standard races like Bad Water and Moab, etc. Like there's such a diversity of like experiences and offerings. >> Yeah. It it keeps it interesting that way as well. And that's why you can have different athletes from different backgrounds being good at at different things. I I like the balance. I like that the old Stead are still there that want it that way. And I think as an athlete or speaking to ultra running truly, you shouldn't always be doing something and it being filmed and doing all this other stuff. Like the experience is the most beautiful thing. Obviously, a lot of the things I do are filmed, but the moments where I get most back from it are when I'm in the middle of nowhere on my own, 7 miles away from my crew, and I I see something magical or have a memory of my mom from the past. So you still go through those experiences and yes if you're raising money or now it becomes a profession for people and money like you have to obviously offer viewership to people if they want it but I think there always needs to be like a bit of both. >> But if you're not connected to that kind of spiritual experience of doing this you're not going to last. You know you're doing it to like have somebody follow you around with a camera like you're you're not going to make it. It's too hard. >> It is too it is too hard. You need a you need a reason beyond yourself to really be doing it. I think if it was completely like ego driven, unless you are one of the sickest athletes out there, I'm like, I'm going to be the best. But as as our conversations have unled and having read your book and Dean's book, it was so interesting to me at this beginning, which is why I attached myself to it so extremely, how a lot of people that get into Ultra have been through some kind of trauma in their life and it's it's a vehicle for dealing with it because obviously that trauma never truly goes away, but you can kind of ride ride the world a little easier. >> So yeah, is um is an interesting sport that's continuously to change. And I also think that all these records that are being sent now, like the younger generation are getting into it now, so give it 10, 15 years, whatever any of us have done. I think we're just at the beginning. Uh it's super interesting. But when you look at >> Max Jolus splits at Badwater, I I can't even get my head around it. Like he's literally running like 730 8 minute miles for like most of that race and he never walked once. >> Yeah, he's a he's a great guy. He's a friend of mine as well and I've spoke to him since. >> Coolest. >> He and he's cool. He's coolest as [ __ ] >> He might be the only guy who can outmog you. >> Yeah. No, I agree with that. Tattoos are crazy. >> Yeah. >> Surf skater surf Cornell. Yeah. I mean, you know, he's, you know, strikingly handsome and uh and the way that he creates these documentary pieces are like they're really beautiful. Like they're, you know, they're executed at such a a high production level and and keen sense of storytelling. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he has a lot to do with that as well. In our conversations, he's >> cuz he comes from a design background. Like he cares about the aesthetics of what he's doing. >> Yeah. He's a Yeah, he's a gangster and he's proven it >> 100%. >> He's proven it. And I like we had a conversation the other day and he was I was obviously congratulating him on Bad Water and he's like, "Yeah, it's great to shut all those shut all those people up online because obviously he wins Moab, king of Moab, and then goes through some races where he DNFS and everyone gets on your back because of social media now. are you not the guy you were? This was a one-off and then goes and absolutely smokes bad water. >> Yeah. Like uncors the performance of a lifetime. >> Incredible. But also it shows that there's so many variables in ultra when you're running over 100 miles or even 100 miles. There's so many things that can go wrong at all points. You're at altitude. It's hot. You have 20 m 25 mile stints where you don't see anyone. So to be perfect and to win every single time is is really not feasible in this sport. >> And it shows that he went and put the work in. He did a lot of the heat training stuff which I've been speaking with him about and yeah the flowers. >> Did you meet him when you did Moab? >> I met him just before that but yeah the same year cuz that was what was it two years ago now? Maybe three. >> Here's the thing about you will on a surface level and in certain ways in in in the way that you show up on social media you're living this kind of aspirational jet setting lifestyle of luxury. It's like Dubai, London, Paris, Berlin, New York, you know, five-star hotels and brunch and fancy dinners and, you know, uh, cold plunges and hanging out at the beach or, you know, on the Amalfi coast. There's this polarity like there is that aspect of you that is unapologetically like enjoying their life to the absolute fullest. And then there's the nose to the grindstone, hardworking, like humble uh, servant aspect of you. You live your life in the same way an athlete trains on the polarities. It's like zone one and two or like zone five and six. You're never in this gray zone. >> But I think with that >> you are kind of courting some controversy in the ultrarunn. But I only know you as the humble good friend who has, you know, a real like like a deep spirit and a deep care for the people that that you know you care about. Uh, and I don't know that that always translates necessarily. And so I'm sure you're on the, you know, kind of on the receiving end of a fair amount of like antagonism online, uh, which you seem to weather with a smile for the most part. Um, but I would imagine it weighs on you. And I think in talking about Max, this is demonstrative of one of your finest qualities, which is that you're a lifelong learner. Like you're not somebody who's like, I got it figured out. You're not operating from a place of ego when you first got interested in learning about the ultra world. Like one of the first people you called was Robbie because you saw him online and what he had done by running across the country and now he's one of your closest friends and you just came from Colorado. Like you basically cohabitate with this guy. You go on these fancy trips and then you go to this really small town in Colorado and you ground yourself and you get the training done and you're with like your best friend and you reach out to Max because you realize there's so much you can learn from somebody like that especially with the heat training stuff and how can I leverage what he decided to do in his training so that would benefit me on this upcoming expedition. [clears throat] >> Yeah. Yeah. life is is a big disparity for me. But I think I've always wanted to make the most of things and then that really got heightened when I lost my mom of the whole thing of like tomorrow is not promised. So there's there's part of me that's like I want to go and experience and do everything I can, but then there's also a part of me that loves the grind, loves actually having some level of uh day-to-day practices that stay the same. Yeah. All of it. All of it is based around around the loss and trying to make the most of things. Um, and I love everywhere other than the middle. I like being at Moab doing a 15-minute nap on the side of a trail, having not slept for like 32 hours. And then obviously I like being in the opulence and luxury of things. >> And it's fun >> bathrobe poached eggs. [laughter] >> Yeah, it's it's fun to habitat like both both worlds, whatever you're interested in. I've always been interested in in these things and now somehow figured out how to balance them. Sure, you might say I'd be a better ultra athlete if I lived in the same place and trained all year. But my my thirst for life isn't just in in one realm. I love doing that. I love exploring that world, but also yeah, I want to I want to see what different cities are around the world. You're not interested in being saintly or being perceived as some kind of uh you know pure role model. >> No. And I don't I don't feel like people should look up to me as as a ro role model either. But one thing I would say is what I might what I might promote is being yourself in any any way, shape or form that you get to do that. You don't just hide in hide and try and be in one box. If you if you're interested in something that isn't particularly normal in whatever world you inhabit, then I think that's I think that's a good thing. >> Mhm. >> Like you can connect with more people the the more sides of you that you show and some somehow you can get more opportunities doing it like that as well. >> You are always unapologetically yourself. And I think that's a strength you know whether people like you know how you show up or not. You're not saying sorry for being who you are. And you're just standing in your power and in your strength. And I think that that is attractive, you know, and you're unflapable in terms of like if people have opinions about how you're living your lifestyle, like that's about them, right? >> But I think it creates a curiosity in the public. Like I go on Chris Williamson's podcast and like this guy's. It's not like he's like super into ultra running and he's like, "What do you think of Will Guge?" You know, this is like people want to know, you know? Uh, and I know you like I don't know you super well, but I know you well enough to know the real person, you know, and and where I think people get confused about what you're really about. >> Yeah, I'm a small I'm a small town kid, son of a a nurse and a carpenter. Like, we always had food on the table. There's no opulence there. But I just always I always I always saw people doing amazing things and had this feeling like I was like, why can't it be me? I've met obviously a lot of interesting people. Like to me, you're a superstar to me. But when I've met them, I've seen them on the human side rather than what they've done and what they've achieved. If I meet any kind of celebrity, I I actually feel a bit sorry for them cuz even in my small experience of people knowing who I am when I'm out and about, sometimes it makes me uncomfortable. So, I feel some level of not pity, but some some level of, you know, understanding for that. The most interesting person I've ever met where I was kind of like, "Wow, what the fuck?" was Felix Bowman, >> the gentleman that jumped out of space for Red Bull, unfortunately passed away. I think it was last last year. >> Yeah, not that long ago. >> But for me, he is one of one. He's the only person to have done that incredible thing, free falling from out of space from a balloon. So that like that blew my mind. But yeah, no people I just like to I like to meet them on a human level. and you might not like some of the things I do and I understand that. But I think there's a there's more people supporting than there are trying to talk it down. And I'm I'm okay. I'm not hurting anyone. I think I'm putting out good things towards the world. I'm trying to be myself. I'm not trying to hide or put a mask on at any point. So, if you like it, great. If you don't, I also respect that and that's totally fine. >> [ __ ] [laughter] off. >> Sometimes it's [ __ ] off. Sometimes it's just like, yeah, whatever. I want to I want to circle back to that in a minute, but uh you said that you have this uh kind of reflex like why not me? >> Yeah. >> How do you have that? Like what did you do to cultivate that? Or what about your upbringing contributed to you having that empowered sense of self versus an inner monologue that's like I could never do that? >> I'm I'm not really I'm not really sure. I think it's just because most people before they achieve something are are not like famous or don't have anything. They've grown up the same as we've grown up as children or whatever. Obviously in different circumstances, but something within them made them great. And a lot of the time it's just like a mindset. People talk about manifesting, putting things out there, thinking about it, and attaching themselves to it, and then it's more likely to happen. It's just it's just always been within me in that sense. Um, not that I'm particularly talented across a whole bunch of things. Everything from me is just like, can I graft more than someone else to to get where I want to be, which is inherently what running thousands of miles involves. So, [snorts] yeah, I can't say there's been like there was like a key moment where I thought of that. It's just >> kind of blossomed in me from like an early age. On the subject of these challenges and and maybe even more acutely this upcoming challenge being 100% mental, is there uh like a rigor or a certain practice where you're consciously trying to cultivate your mental toughness to handle this or or you know like how do you think about that and prepare yourself? >> I have the most simple phrase of all time. Can I take another step? The answer is always yes because it doesn't matter unless you've broken your leg or something has gone terribly wrong. You can always take one more step forward and which you can apply to any part of your life. But having seen my own mom fight for her life. I was there when she passed away. The the thing of seeing someone hold on to life is is quite insane. It's not a nice thing to experience, but it shows you what the human body is capable of even right towards the very end. So I realize that I am not even close to that that point. I'm not taking my last breath. So the act of taking one more step, even though it might hurt and often does over and over again, I can still do it. It's a very ultra realistic view of the position I'm in. >> Well, it's basically breaking it down to like a James Clear Atomic Habits thing. Like you don't have to worry about like the New York City marathon when you're in the middle of Ohio. >> You just [clears throat] have to worry about what you're doing right now and can you take that next step? And that >> applies broadly to every aspect of life. >> Yeah. >> It's not a running thing. >> No, it's not. >> People think it's about whether they're considering their own relationship with change or transformation or trying to lose 10 pounds or whatever it is. Uh, I think there's not enough emphasis on like the only time you can actually any do anything whatsoever is right now. >> Yeah. >> And we're just thinking about like how are we going to do that thing tomorrow or I should have done this other thing better yesterday. >> Yeah. We love we love putting it off and we also love setting the intention maybe the day before or the hour before and then you have that reaction in your brain where you get you get the good feedback like you've already already done it. >> You already did it. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and that happens to me still. I still do I still do these things. I'm never perfect through through normal life. But when you force yourself into a situation where you're doing a challenge like this, there is no way out other than to finish. You don't you you can't put it off by sometimes >> this profound confrontation with self. I mean that's like the real that's the >> that's the juice of the whole ultra experience. It's like you cannot escape your own weaknesses and whatever your mind is telling like you are just like >> it's right smack in your face and you got to you got to you got to [ __ ] grapple with that. >> You are in every second. >> It's a true serum. >> But the the irony is when I do these things I still feel lazy. >> So to people watching there's no like enlightenment towards the end or during it thinking you're [ __ ] brilliant or whatever. >> What do you mean you feel lazy? How could you possibly feel lazy? I feel like I'm either not running fast enough or I'll get into an aid stop and I might stay 2 minutes too long. >> But there is I think it's because you're in you're really in fight or flight. It's a very highly stressful situation to put yourself into. And that's why after I do these things outside of the physical >> strain it puts on your body. Like my all my systems are down when I finish these things. After Australia, I was sleeping for 16 hours a day for a week. So you really do go through a lot. But yeah, the feeling of lazy or I could have gone faster, I could have gone further is is always there, but it's then also a driving force. So I wouldn't say it's inherently bad, but it also kind of levels levels the playing field or at least gives people an insight into >> that when you maybe do these things that you still don't feel like uh king of the world. A huge part of the su success or failure equation with this is going to be uh about how efficiently you're going to be able to recover in between these marathons, right? So I imagine there's a whole strategy around this and a team that is going to be joining you to attend to this. Like what does that look like? [laughter] Like this is literally on the stopwatch, too. Like you have an hour, you know, before like we're going to okay, we're going to get on this plane. It's a 30 minute flight. we're going to land this and you're going to have to get out and get right to it, right? And so, what can we do in that period of time to get you ready? >> I'm laughing because it's >> it's like Formula 1. >> It's a lot less than people maybe consider. And I think with with recovery in general, and I think this is just like a marketing thing. It's like nothing is going to help me that much. It's like supplements. They're a supplement to what already should be good. So, I've never had a physio on anything I've done. I've never had like a team doctor. Part of the reason for that is I feel like they're either going to tell me something I don't want to know, like something's actually wrong. And in my head, if I don't know what's wrong, I just have to push through. It hurts, whatever. Or they're going to take up too much time by massaging me for 20 minutes. So, >> there has to be a happy medium with that, though, cuz >> yeah, we're quite a circus. Like, if things start to go wrong, I don't have a doctor, but like Robbie and Jason, having done these things before, know how to strap an ankle. So, there's that. And then really the only things I use consistently is like the Normatech boots, the compression sleeves. I think they're great for moving blood flow around. Even when I'm in ultra races, if I don't have them, like at an aid stop or whatever, if it's 60 mi in, I'll put my legs in legs in the air and you can feel like the blood draining from them and you'll massage them. So, a similar kind of thing. But we're going to have to I'm going to have to learn how to nap quite well again. >> Mhm. Because like you say, when I've got the three in a day, some of them I'm finishing at like four o'clock in the morning and then getting in a car and driving two or three hours and then it's like, okay, get out and do another one. It's like, >> and when your nervous system is that jacked up, you'd think it would be easy to fall asleep after these things is actually quite difficult. >> It is. But also, I think the experiences of what I've done before have made it easier. >> It's a It's definitely a learned practice of being able to kind of sleepish on queue. >> Mhm. Um, so I'll be listening to binaural beats and stuff like that when I'm in an RV or maybe if I can on a commercial flight. I don't know. Um, but yeah, sleep is king. Fortunately, like I've said before, there's these little buffers where there's some there's sometimes where I might have like a 7-hour window so I could sleep properly. But on these events, Australia, I averaged, I think it was just over 5 hours a night for 34 nights. So >> Mhm. And what's the fueling strategy? >> Fueling is I I eat whole foods as much as possible. Like you think it's just like a a grab of calories in any way, shape, or form you can or using things like gels, but they all have like a well your gut basically has a shelf life of how much it can it can tolerate of less than healthy things. Or gels, for example, like I'll use them for a marathon, but I don't feel great afterwards. Um, so yeah. Um, I'll be trying I'll probably be burning depending on if it's a two or three marathon day from about 6,000 to probably 9,000 calories a day. >> Mhm. >> So, it's getting fuel as frequently as possible, especially on a on the on the journeys in between. Usually, I see the crew every seven miles and have like a what you consider probably a meal, even if it's a shake. Um, but on this, because I have the 5hour window, we have to kind of reimagine that. It's I will see the crew probably every seven miles. We'll do the three miles first with with everyone that wants to come down and then 7 seven to finish. So I'll be probably lightly fueling on those bits and then a conscious effort in the travel between to pack on as many calories as I can. [snorts] >> One of the things you're doing is heat training. Max has you like queued up on how to do that. Obviously his >> uh experience preparing for Bad Water paid off tremendously and he's this huge proponent of it. Um so you've made these videos where you're putting on the same like heat suit and the whole deal, but you're doing it at altitude. >> I got influenced. >> You got influenced by an influencer, but he's so handsome. >> He's great. How can you not be influenced by him? >> Yeah. And the proof's in the pudding, like >> Sure. Uh so so you know you got the core suit on and then you got the hoodie on on top of it. You're running at altitude doing this. How long have you been doing this? Have you seen benefits from this or what is the experience and what exactly are you doing? Like >> lay out like exactly how this is different from normal training and what you're trying to accomplish. So I've done two sessions so far because I actually had a call with a thermo I don't know some an expert in heat training that was part is part of the core team. So I had a call with them I think it was the start of last week and they were like introduce it slowly but I'll be doing two to three heated sessions a week of 50 minutes and then I'll be doing two passive ones which means being in a sauna. So the idea is you run 5 6 miles first so your core temperature rises and then you put the suit on and the hoodie and everything else and then you go out for up to 50 minutes literally cooking. >> Yeah. >> But the experience I was actually >> But you got to work up to that. >> Yeah. >> You can't just go out and do 50 minutes. >> The first one I did though I did 7 miles easy and then put it on and then I did 45 minutes and I was a bit sort of dizzy towards the end but it felt good. Um, the thing is being in Colorado at that altitude is it's super super dry. So I think the experience of me doing it down here in California, I'm going to do one on Santa Monica Beach tomorrow will be very different. So we're going to continue to speak to them. But we've we've I have like a I do my own training program for this. We have a week of I need to get to 100 miles one way or another, but within that there's a heat there's two heat sessions and there is a speed session or tempo >> because I need to be able to have the leg carryover to be doing back to back to back to back to etc 5hour marathons it's quite slow considering but to do yeah 15 in a rows >> but the idea is to make the body more resilient uh so that it can function as your core body temperature escalates and so in these sessions you have that like the core thing that goes on your chest strap that's measuring your body temperature and you're also paying attention to um you know how dehydrated you're becoming. So that informs like your electrolyte and fueling strategy if you know how much sweat loss you're experiencing. And this also is going to depend upon like humidity versus dryness. Actually is pretty humid out here in LA. Like incredibly it's usually never humid. So, I would take advantage of the weird humidity that we're experiencing here because, you know, heat in bad water, which is very dry, is going to be different than heat in Athens, Georgia, you know, where it's just humid as all get out, right? And how does your body respond to those different types of heat? >> Yeah. And I'm going to obviously be going through all of it considering we're doing it uh October to the very beginning of November. >> It's cooling down. Yeah. Probably not the best experience. >> It's not. But in talking to Max as well, he said even if I was going to do like a cold race, I'd still implement it. And the whole thing of like heat training is incre increasing blood plasma and also it teaches your body to basically regulate its temperature better. So your core temperature isn't rising as as quickly and then it's also cooling down quicker after that. >> So that improves recovery then in turn improves everything cardio- wise. You can train again quicker afterwards, etc. And then if you're in heat, then you're going to deal with it a lot better. So, if you crush this challenge on the heels of Max Joliff rewriting the record book at Badwater, Yeah. >> I can see this being a catalyst for a whole new trend of people like >> exploring heat training. Like >> people have always done this to one degree or another. Like old school bad water athletes would put a treadmill in the sauna. >> Yeah. >> And run. Um but now this is just adding more science into it and experimentation. >> Yeah. That's what was kind of interesting to me. Like you've always seen people do it. You've seen Rocky Bala famous scene gray sweatpants sweating through it. So it's always been a thing, but like you say, there's now a level of scientific and detail to it. You get like a heat adaptation score with this core device as well. So it's interesting and like we said earlier like how much better athletes are going to become in this space that has been traditionally underfunded, undervalued. People have just kind of gone done it in an exploratory way. Now it's really becoming [music] professional. >> The most important resource we have is time and we need to really understand how important that is because most of us are wasting too much of it. What do you think, Andrew? >> Well, shoot, man. We just checked our screen time and apparently I'm uh spending six and a half hours a day staring at what Hassan Midhaj calls my rectangle of sadness. [laughter] >> I'm embarrassed to say mine is even worse. This is a real problem. We need to begin to really value our time. 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So each day's decision gets made from evidence instead of some old habit or from insecurity or anxiety. Push today, back off tomorrow, [music] trust the process. Getting to that start line healthy really is the achievement for me. And whoop is how I protect it. Whatever your own start line is, it can be a race, season, or just a stretch of life that you want to show up for, [music] that awareness changes everything. So check it out. Go to join.woop.com/roll for one month free of Whoop. You've run across America, you've run across uh Australia, you did Moab, you've done a lot of things like you've worked your way up to uh earning, you know, your kind of like right to embark upon what you're about to do. How has your training changed or evolved? like what have you learned from the mistakes you've made in the past or you know how you've approached these other races uh in terms of like how you're preparing for this or has it always just been like I do this thing and it works for me >> now to begin with I just would totally make it up and to a certain degree I'm making it up now but it's a lot more informed than it was before it was just about high mileage and doing strength training which I've always done and I think is a key if you're a 10k runner or doing ultramarathons you need to have a level of strength, protection around the joints, etc. So, I'm just a lot more informed doing these heat sessions, doing speed sessions. When you think I'm running over 1,000 miles, you think speed wouldn't be that important, but I need turnover. When my legs are are thrashed, I still need to be able to run. >> You're still doing track workouts. >> Yeah. >> Even though you're unlikely to run faster than a 10-minute per pace for [laughter] this entire thing. So, like, walk me through the wisdom of that. Like, what why do that at all? >> It's all it's all about turnover. Like, the the best ultra runners will still be doing speed work. You can't you can't just go out and plot 10-minute miles every day and do high mileage. You're going to get more out of doing less miles, but having some specific sessions in there that are temporal speed than you are doing 140 miles at the same pace. >> You need you need different inputs, >> stimuli, >> different stimuli. Exactly. Like last weekend we hiked Shaveo, one of the 14ers in Colorado with Robbie and that was a 10 mile experience of going extremely slowly, but that's the kind of feeling I'm going to be having on day 14. >> Mhm. >> Where I've run a few hundred miles already and my legs feel extremely tacked. So, how do you replicate that in a training setting and then also be ready for it when it comes in the reality of the challenge? What is the balance of strength training to traditional run training and how does it change as you get closer to the starting line of a big event? >> I always do one session a week even with the mileage quite high like it is now. So I'm doing over 100 miles every week and then the two weeks before I will switch and do two maybe even three sessions a week while I'm in that kind of taper period. So, I'm trying to load up on strength and also I'll be eating a lot more so I don't go into it sort of emaciated or whatever because I need something to lose when I'm on that start. >> Yeah, you need that but you also don't want to be logging around >> unnecessary extra body weight shoulders and chest that are only just going to get tight and demand you know like resources you know. >> I haven't trained upper body this entire year. >> Not at all. >> I've done one push-up. >> You're a genetic freak then because your physique is insane. Yeah, I do a lot of core work. Um, and there'll be like a lot of like farmers carries and things like that. So, I'm still I'm still gripping and holding weight in my in my arms, but it's it's kind of a frustrating thing. I think when I'm older I'll love it because, you know, being strong and stuff is great for longevity, but through my running career, it's actually been quite [ __ ] annoying that [laughter] I've always got big chest and things that you do like a winter bulk and then you taper off of that as you progress your running volume and stay enough in contact with it so that you're maintaining, you know, adequate strength for the purpose of of, you know, ultra running performance. >> No, >> no, you don't. [laughter] Like I said, like my my years are often geared around like a specific event or a specific race. >> Yeah. >> When I finish, >> let me just hold on a second. [laughter] So what just so we're clear when Will says that like my life is oriented around a specific event or a race. Most of these things are events. A quote unquote events. These events are the Monaco Grand Prix, Paris Fashion Week, New York Fashion Week, the Venice Bianale. You know, like this is this is what we're talking about, right? I was talking about races specifically, but >> Okay. >> But yes, I do. >> There's the lifestyle event piece. >> Yeah. >> And then there's the racing event piece. >> Yeah. Usually I do something big every 2 years. So this opportunity came up after Australia, which I finished last May. You completely destroyed afterwards. Like I took the rest of the year off, didn't really run too much, and then immediately got into a marathon block for London this year. >> Um, >> what did you go? You were trying to go 245, right? >> Yeah, I did a 247 something. which was I think a 11 minute PV or something. So it was good but that was also like a nice lead in to then really upping the miles because I had had that 7 8 months of kind of doing nothing other than enjoying myself and drinking and then straight back into the serious stuff. >> Um but yeah my years are just like constantly changing so I don't feel like I have any kind of real program of maintenance. I like running, so I go out and do it. I like going to the gym, so I do it. I don't want to be overweight. I want to be able to move freely. So, there's there's always some element of that in my practice, but there is no like clear intention until I'm like, "Okay, I'm doing MOAB in 8 months. How are we going to do a training camp for that?" H in doing a forensic analysis of this route and all the logistics that go into this and the the the just very tiny margin of error. I mean, I think it's easy to say like, well, we have a 4-day buffer, but like, >> you know, uh maybe you have like a two-day buffer. Who knows? You know what I mean? But there has to be specific pain points along that route. Like when you look at it, where do you see like the most constriction? Like, oh, that one's going to be really tough to pull off. It's when I do the the 323. There's there's one example where I've got a triple double then triple close together. >> So that will be that'll be the biggest test because I can't I don't know if you've got the states in front of you there. >> So the pinch moment is day nine. You're going to do three and then you're going to do two and then you're going to do three again. >> Yeah. See to me what looks very difficult is October 30. So, at the very tail end of this thing, you're going to do Massachusetts, Vermont, and New Hampshire in one day. >> Yeah. And >> so, you're gonna be going into the New York City Marathon just absolutely tanked. >> Yeah. It's Yeah. It's It's interesting cuz I am due to arrive in New York, I think, at 3:00 a.m. So, the race starts a few hours after that. >> So, you're going to go right from the airirstrip to the starting line, basically. >> Yeah. I think we I think we drive that section, though. >> Oh, you do? Yeah. But either way, it's it's going to be interesting because when I did the similar thing, 4830, 48 marathons, 48 counties of England, 30 days, I finished at the London Marathon and I PBD. I did a 306. So, that was my PB. >> That's where you just realize the body is just a magical instrument. >> Yeah. >> It's almost like the body is saying to you like, "Oh, now I finally get it at the end. Like, I I figured it out." Yeah. you know, and uh and and it's just capable of astounding things. I mean, I remember when I did Epic 5, which is just a, you know, kind of uh small example of what you're doing. Like the fifth day, I felt the best. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't make it doesn't make physiological sense, but a lot of people that do these things get fitter during it. Like Iron Cowboy, >> the first few days your body's like, >> "Yeah, but he was absolutely falling apart at the end. >> He was falling apart at the end. That was extreme. Close call there for a minute. >> Yeah. But it is funny how like the the first few days or I've had experience of the first nine days across Australia which were absolutely horrendous. Your body's in shock like yo what are we doing? When you've done it before it's a little bit less shock but then afterwards there's like this it's like your your shoulders drop and everything becomes less stiff and it's okay this is what we do now. >> Mind, body, everything seems to be working together in a in a beautiful more fluid way. And of course, you have like bumps along the road, but it's incredible when you force your body through your mind and spirit to do something. How eventually it's like, okay, and you you work together. I have this crazy thing where I I talk to my body parts when I'm doing these things. I'll like thank my feet at the end of the day. Or >> tell me more about this. or if my it actually happened when I did John Do you want to go at Salan's End Phil Griffin who um who filmed the whole thing told me about a practice he did and I just I just took it in my own way and whenever anything hurt like it would definitely be like hip flexors or whatever I'd be thanking like the quads or the glutes and be like thank you for taking the strain the hip flexors are have gratitude for that and I' I'd always be like towards the end like don't worry we've only got a few more days left I need you to like give me everything for these few days and then it's massage time horizontal. We're going to be great. But yeah, it's interesting to disassociate your own body from like your your mind like there are different there are different there's conversations always happening. Um but it was uh it was always a beautiful practice for me that I've continued to do. Never really spoken about that much but >> it's just a a natural thing I've done and I I do really think it helps. >> It's like a gratitude practice. I mean, you can do that with respect to your inner monologue also. If you start to hear that voice saying, "You can stop. It's okay. It'll still be good." And you can be like, "Thank you for your input." You know, but like >> I'll take it into consideration, but like right now, like, you know, I I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to protect me, but like it's just not necessary right now. And like >> I'll uh I'll I'll check back in with [laughter] you later. >> Your point Your point has been raised. I've heard it. >> Yes. right now we're we're not going to go with your point of view, >> right? [laughter] >> I know you have my best interest at heart, you know, like I appreciate you, you know, rather than like shut the [ __ ] up. You know, >> I sometimes do that, too. But >> I think >> sometimes it's necessary. >> I kind of get inspiration from all forms. >> Mhm. whether I'm angry, when I'm happy, [snorts] >> there's the physical like pain points along this way like you like backing up these uh you know these these three marathon days but there's also logistical pain points I would imagine where the margin of error is very small like if we don't finish this and be here by this time like we're going to miss this flight or we're not going to be able to get to the next place in time >> uh where we have enough time to actually accomplish what we need to do tomorrow you know and that's where the precision and the military kind of like focus on keeping you on track is going to be important because you're just trying to do the thing. Somebody's got to keep you on the rails to make sure that like you're on schedule the whole time. >> Yeah. >> There's like no moment where you can just kick back because it's a domino effect on the rest. You you you threaten the entire operation. >> Yeah. I could >> if you fall behind you can't really catch up. >> No, it's pretty pretty much impossible. But that's also why it's so amazing and the only reason we can do it is because of Goodwin's influence and their help. They'll have people off the scene. We've got we're going to have a captain in every single state that can accept like things we need in the in the buildup. So they might get sent some food, they'll get sent some like merchandise that they can give up, but there's a Goodwin employee managing each and every state. So we have someone on on the ground ready to do stuff. >> And these like good this is what they do. Logistics is their business, right? AI but h human as well but everything is funneling into being as seamless and as professional as possible and if things go wrong they'll hopefully I'm pretty sure I have them to >> they will they will figure out or something like that. Yeah. >> So it's very everything is basically live in time going on all the time. Do you have contingency plans like okay let's say like some some unforeseen variable interferes with this we're not going to make this flight we're not going to do this so there is a like a plan B that takes you on a whole different route >> they have >> to accomplish this on time >> they have some other some other um plans like a plan B plan C etc I just haven't asked to see them I don't need I don't need that in my head I'm I'm doing it this way we're going plan A it's going to work >> I'll run faster Yeah, etc., etc. So, >> and this time you have the Guinness Book of World Records uh on board like there's buy in like you've appraised them that this is what you're attempting to do. it's been vetted like you're you're operating on a different level professionally in terms of like how you're tracking this to immunize yourself against some of the attacks that you've had to weather in the past around your performance >> which is all [snorts] fair enough. So Guinness have made it an official challenge or record that I can do. There is still some stuff we're doing with the licensing but it's all moving in the right direction. Um, actually recently I just I actually got the FKT across Australia, >> right? I wanted to talk about [laughter] that. I mean, this is the lead into that. There's a lot of, you know, I know that you've suffered. I know that Rob this Robbie has taken this really hard. Uh, just all the criticism >> uh that you were on the receiving end of like in your in your past attempts. I mean, with Crossing America with, you know, how well are you actually tracking it? This guy showing up on the course. We talked about this the last time you were on the show. >> Um, people questioning your heart rate data when you were running across Australia. There's countless >> Reddit threads about this and a lot of discourse, let's say, you know, and a lot of acrimony and a lot of questioning. So, >> where are you at with that now? What is it that you want to say about all of that? >> Well, firstly, the burden of proof seems to just keep going up and up and up because of social media and people seeing it. Back in the day when someone ran across the US and got the record, there was nothing to do with heart rate. If you wanted to do a Guinness World Record, you had witness statements. So the the burden of a proof has improved or or gone up. But these the thing Guinness FKT, they have their regulations, they're professionals, they look at things in the most professional way and they are the gold standard between them. So some random people online saying my heart rate is too low and doesn't match up to me is just it's cuz they can't believe it cuz they can't do it themselves or they have some kind of ill feeling towards me because of like you've said the kind of the life I live but then also the levels of athleticism I can go to. >> Mhm. >> So [clears throat] we've always tried to do what we thought was best or the most. When America happened that's when it really like cranked up. I was like, "Fucking hell." I didn't know any of >> Who was that guy who who like flew in? >> Will Cochril. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. He had an issue with me because his friend [snorts] Bruce Tuller had the British record. Bro, no one gives a flying [ __ ] who's the fastest Brit to run across America. It's who's the fastest person to run across America. We just use that to make it. >> But he was very committed uh to maligning you. >> Yeah. Yeah. He wants to see my downfall. And where is he at with all of this now? Oh, >> he's still been messaging a bit about what we're doing. He had a problem with me saying that it was then going to be 24 days instead of 20. Like I had to stick to what I said originally. It's like we were still planning it. >> Mhm. >> So we we try and do the best we can. Like across Australia had a live tracker on me at all times. I've obviously got I've obviously got the watch. So it's like if anyone wants to turn up at any point and see where I am, which a lot over 100 people did across Australia, they can do that. But what what level do I have to go to and take on expense of proving that we're doing this thing by live streaming or or inviting a judge out that I have to pay to be there for 34 days? Like it's it's it's mental. >> Mhm. >> Like live tracker uh you know all the Garmin data maybe you know backup Garmins or whatever you're using to track your metrics and all of that. I mean, is there anything more that you would need? Like, I don't know what the what the expectations are with Guinness and and everybody else, like, what is it that they want to see you do that would sufficiently calm them down? >> Well, those guy those guys are all okay with it. FKT and Guinness are fine with what I've what I've applied for and the information I've given. Like FKT will look at the the cadence along with the the like um my splits, etc., And they're like, "All of that matches up exactly as it should do. Your wrist heart rate data might be skewed, but when you're wearing something for 16 hours a day running every single day, is it going to be totally accurate? Do I need to wear an ECG when I do this thing?" So, we have complete >> Yeah. I mean, the chest strap data can be at times unreliable. Also, I was on the treadmill this morning and I noticed like, "Oh, my my heart rate this is not right." you know, based on perceived effort. Like what it was telling me, I was like, "This is I need a new heart rate monitor or something." This is like all over the place. >> Yeah. Sometimes you'll move your wrist strap or I'll like the wrist is always tremendously unreliable. >> But yeah, the thing is it's like what [ __ ] more do you want from us? Like we're broadcasting it all out there. You can see where we are at all times. For America, we're obviously taking it to another level. I will wear two watches. So we have like a backup Straa account that's you can see that I'm definitely doing the distance and because it's so construed of doing a marathon distance in each state I need two forms of distance and then obviously whichever watch is the furthest. So one might be at like 26.2 but the other one might be at 26.1. So I'll go to I'll use the other one and then and then continue to go. Like I said, we've got an open door policy for the first 3 miles of every single run, so people can come down. >> The course is >> the final 5K also, right? >> Uh I think we're just going to do the opening >> uh 5K, but then all of my routes are going to be visible as well that I'm taking. And I'm going to have the live tracker on me, so at any point you can pull up and check if I'm running. >> All right. So, what do you really want to say to the haters out there? >> Just [ __ ] get a life. Really? I mean, what I would also say is thank you because all of their attention has only just built into everything I'm doing. So, the more attention I get, the more people saying like, well, there's actually a very small small section of people that say I fake things. But it all goes towards the machine of this being professional, me doing bigger and better things, me having the opportunity to do what I'm about to do. So, >> inadvertently, even though you're trying to take me down, you're actually raising me up even more. Yeah, >> it's funny in the comments when you see like people that I know or just strangers that are like backing me up. The stra the straa ones across Australia were insane. >> Do you engage with this or you're just, you know, kind of vicariously? >> Uh I don't have the time. I'm I'm running 16 hours a day and then I have to sleep as soon as I can afterwards. So, >> but I mean in the aftermath and you're kind of going through it. >> Uh no, not really. I don't really look at look back at a whole load of things. Like I never watch the videos of what I've done before. I recently started watching the America thing again cuz I haven't watched this since I did it. I've never listened back to a podcast I've done. For me, it's like moments in time that I was in and it's beautiful and I enjoy it. But the whole thing of looking back, I don't know. Maybe I think I'll do it eventually when I'm older and I'm maybe out of this world to see what I've done and how it's shaped who I've become. But yeah, the dayto-day it's like I'm I'm living in today and also seeing what's next. >> Yeah. Is there a sense of anxiety as you get closer to the date or is it just enthusiasm like on this mantra of like one more step like trying to break it down into like okay what do I have to do today obviously alleviate some of that stress and pressure but it's so daunting I would imagine you know like you might be waking up in the middle of the night occasionally saying like what did I get myself into this is insane >> or no >> no I don't I'm I'm excited it's like um it's an opportunity to do something great to see all 50 states any point in your life is cool. I'm obviously not going to see a whole lot of it. Might be five or six hours, but it's it's such a big opportunity that who knows if it will ever be done again. Somehow I'm the man that's going to be going out and doing it. So, there's a level of privilege. There is a level of pressure behind it cuz I'm representing like Stand Up to Cancer and I want to do a good job for them and raise as much money as we can. I'm always representing my mom. So, there's an element of that as well. But the overriding feeling is one of joyous curiosity of of what's to come. I love adventure in all forms. And this is pretty pinnacle of what I've done so far. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's that's the best mindset to be in, right? To be able to enjoy it or appreciate it while it's happening. >> Yeah. and not be fixated on like crossing the finish line in New York City. >> Yeah. No. And also, I know it's going to be terrible at times, but that's also why I do it. >> This is what this is what you're signing up for. >> Yeah. That's what that's what you want. Like to go through something hard and to get out the other side is the ultimate goal of most things. And the feeling of being worthy or earning something through hard work for me is is is amazing. So, I get to do that again in those really dark moments. It's like, how do I get out of that? Do I learn something? Do I go back on something I've I've done before? But it's always a test and you're only as good as your last day or in this case like like your last marathon. Like nothing before it matters. Nothing matters after it when I'm in it. >> It's do I have it? Do I have the dog in me today to to get the to get it done and then >> we'll do tomorrow tomorrow. >> Setting aside the philanthropic aspect of this cancer awareness and raising money for research and care, etc. uh and understanding your disinterest in in being considered any kind of like role model uh you are at the same time like stewarding a message around human potential and capability. So outside of the cancer aspect of this, like what is it? What is what is the message that you want people to receive who are going to follow along on this? Like what what is it that you want them to feel and believe as a result of you tackling such a difficult challenge? >> I just I want them to be less scared. I think a lot of us move through life with fear of losing something, not being enough. And a lot of the time fear stops us from from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals. So, I'm just trying to be a voice for I'm I'm going to go and do this thing. It's the outcome is not guaranteed. There are so many variables and so many things that could go wrong, but I'm still going to go into it with like a level of confidence that I can get this done because I'm putting my mind to it. There's there's so much of me invested in this >> that we can do way bigger things than we ever thought of. Like I say, I'm from a small town in the middle of England. this conversation right now was not part of my bingo card and basically 95% of the rest of my life wasn't either. So yeah, get out and chase something. It doesn't have to be running, but do it without fear. >> And it's not like you came up as a runner. You were a rugby player. Running came later in life, >> and it came as a way of managing your your grief. Honestly, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to become a runner and become this competitive athlete. It's just that's what it served you for at that time and it was a natural outgrowth. It wasn't like I'm going to get into this and then eight years from now I'm this is what I'm going to be doing. [clears throat] Like I think people think that someone like yourself or people that are achieving at at a high level in in in their respective discipline made a plan, you know, long ago and whiteboarded out the whole thing and they're just like in lock step with that plan. And maybe that occurs with some people, but I think more often than not, >> when it's inspired by some kind of genuine emotion, you're just kind of following that and you're making space for these magical things to come into your life. So, it's more about an openness than it is about goal setting necessarily. >> Yeah, I'd agree that 100%. There was no there was no plan when I got into it. I never saw past running John Salan's end and then after that it gave me like a bit of confidence and maybe I could explore this more which led to 4830 which led to the the US which led to Australia etc etc. So yeah I think it's it's not being closed off to what the world is doing cuz the world's always changing everything is changing together. Um and yeah everything I do is explorative. >> I love the relationship that you have with Robbie. Yeah. >> So, I want to hear more about what that relationship is like and and what role he plays in your life. >> Well, I actually had quite an emotional chat with him. I think it was before Moab, and I basically said to him in I was I was kind of crying when I said it, but I needed to get it across of like how important he is to me. I said I lost I lost my mom in the January and I was I I'd lost such a huge part of my life. There was a g there was a gaping hole. And then I truly feel like she sent Robbie to me as like an angel to be able to take this young adult that was had this dream of doing something that he shouldn't have been able to do but also be a voice of reason and I I see very similar like qualities and charact characteristics between them. Robbie has been so giving to me and always got behind of what I did and his enjoyment or his uh gratification out of it is through me completing it. My mom was very much in that vein as well. It was like how do I how do I allow my son to be free and do the things he wants to do and then celebrate his achievements if he has any. So yeah, me and my relationship with Robbie is extremely special. Like I say, I I feel like my mom left and he arrived to fill some of that gap. And he's really been a steward of taking me from this [ __ ] up 23-year-old and then guided me through everything. Even like I said, I didn't have a plan and maybe neither did he. He's really like held my hand through that entire experience and allowed me to achieve what I've been able to achieve because honestly without him I would have failed John Salan's end. There was a time on that where I had ruptured [clears throat] a ligament in my ankle going through this field and I got back into the the wagon and I was like distraught. My ankle was like the size of a football. >> Mhm. >> No one else could tell me anything because they hadn't done anything but I saw this Robbie Ballinger character as this larger than life amazing guy who'd ran across the US recently. So what he says has holds a lot of weight for me and he was basically like the the schedule's too tight. it your an you will figure it out. Your ankle will learn how to to move again. It's like but you have to get out and do it now. >> And in any other situation with anyone else in the world telling me that, I'd have told him to [ __ ] off and I'd have canceled it for the day. It might have taken me an extra week or have never done it and I wouldn't be here now. So that's the the level of impact he's had on my life. other than just being a a general like sage and mentor like what are some other pieces of of concrete advice that he's given you >> concrete advice >> to keep you keep this you know >> this uh brighteyed uh occasionally weward young man >> he's helped me on the way on the wayward side as well because they he had a rule when we were going across Australia which I've always implemented which is always one beer sometimes two never So there's we're quite it's quite like a pirate operation. Like we're >> we're kind of all over the place, but we like to have fun in the the ridiculousness of what we're doing even. >> Yeah. You finish the day and you're like, I'm going to have a beer. Like why not? Like why is it have to be like just all hardness and suffering? Like there is a different way to experience this. >> There's just an element of that that takes you out of what you're doing. And in a lot of society, if you've had a tough week at work, you go to the pub on a Friday and you have a beer or you've done something good. So that allows us me to like disassociate with what I'm doing. And also as like a tight-knit crew, we'll like have dinner together and it feels >> your nervous system can >> Yeah. And then I just relax and then yeah, take my head out of what I'm doing cuz it's so extreme. And in my life and the way you see it, it's like I have to enjoy things along the way. I can't be I'm never going to be training and doing the same thing for 12 months. Like the the athletes I love from the past and people I can think of like um like Dennis Rodman. >> He was he couldn't shoot but he defended like a dog and >> the coach would let him go to Vegas and do his thing, blow off some steam. >> He wasn't afraid to enjoy his life and he was on the far end of that extreme. I think maybe to his detriment, but >> very [laughter] but those those kind of athletes, I think it's just like people need to be managed differently. People have different like kinks and things they need or they're interested in. And yeah, I like people that do things that do things their own way. Like we've said about me being unapologetic myself, like I I really love like Ben Felton, who's Ben is running on Instagram. Known him for years. He's so dedicated to to running every day and being like a professional. Like I I just love the way he promotes his stuff and he is himself. I feel I feel the realness of someone and I also feel like the the fakeness of holding things up and I'm going to go and do all major marathons in a year so I can tick tock it. Like >> who are the other people out there that inspire you in different ways? >> Max is a big one. Max is great. We spoke about obviously um Mark earlier as well. what he's doing amazing and also to have seen him come out on the US and just like this random guy turns up and now he's doing that [ __ ] is is incredible. Um, who else is it? Obviously Robbie >> Tru at Hannes. I think he's brilliant. I mean, he's he's another guy who's unapologetically in a in a cool and interesting way that brings a whole other >> uh swath of person into this world. >> Exactly. >> Running in his jeans and you know the whole deal like it's crazy. >> It's performance art on some level, but it's coming from a genuine place. >> Exactly. So yeah, I like these like movers and shakers that are doing interesting things. And I like people that set big lofty goals even if they even if you don't eventually make it like get out your comfort zone, >> right? Truit saying like he's going to he's going to he wants to qualify for Olymp. >> Yeah. Insane. >> And a lot of people saying that's impossible. You're way too you have way too much muscle. You're way too big. Like there's a huge like every minute after a certain point becomes exponentially harder to shave off your marathon time. and he is like out of his mind thinking he's going to be able to improve that much in this amount of time and we'll see. >> Yeah. >> But he's documenting it and he's being transparent about it and he seems like unaffected [snorts] by that. It's just it's >> it's attention farming on some level. But it's an interesting story that I think the average person can understand like, oh, I see this guy, he looks different than these other guys. He's trying to do this thing. I guess that's a hard thing to do and now I'm invested in seeing whether he can do it or not. >> Yeah. Yeah. I like people having a crack whether they make it or not. And yeah, just go for it. And then another another guy who's also like an actual professional is George Mills. He's one of the fastest like British and European like 5k runners >> and I've I've sought his council quite a lot over the years. >> Oh, that's good. So you're getting elite pro council from one of the best in the world. Yeah, cuz also when I was doing London, when I was in I was in Tokyo for quite a while before I did that. Um, which was actually good cuz at the start of the year I'd been in Dubai and then Bali and Indonesia. So, it was very hot, very humid. And then I got to Japan. I was like, I still need to do some kind of heat training. And he was the one that told me about getting in a 40° bath for 20 minutes. And he was sending me all these photos from like the ones he had made himself. [snorts] Um but yeah, having that like elitist grew up grew up doing track and field like from a young age like all that experience he's had now obviously being great at what he does like you get you get different um you get different information from someone like that than even like Max doing the heat stuff. Max is kind of new to it. Truit's new to it. You could say I'm new to it even though I've been around for eight nine years in this game. But that's like the old school professional running information that I get. >> Is there anything else you're doing in training that is counterintuitive or different or experimental? >> Uh some of the time I lean into um not fueling like um >> faster training >> uh Killian Ja like I remember reading his book Above the Clouds is it >> and him being like a kid and his mom giving him like 250 mill of water to go and run a marathon. So I do a lot of I do I do both because I now understand the need in training your gut to deal with high levels of high volumes of food etc. So sometimes I'll go out on an empty stomach and try and test the body so I don't need as much but then I also realize I have to do the opposite and sometimes get into what I'm going to be doing like eat a heavy eat a heavy meal and then go out running afterwards. Yeah, the fasted training is good to train your body to operate efficiently without a constant, you know, fuel input. >> Um, >> and by doing that, you realize like you don't have to bring all this stuff with you. You know, if you're going out for a 2-hour run and you're at a certain level of fitness or whatever, like you can manage it. It's fine. It will impair how well you recover for the if you have a big workout the next day, you'll pay for it then, but you'll be able to do that workout. in in this event that you're doing, like you're not going to be doing any of this. Like you're you're always whenever you're eating, you're eating for the next marathon. Like you're not eating to complete that marathon. You're always thinking ahead and planning and measuring out your calories for that purpose. But >> I think it's cool to like experiment with [snorts] >> with all of these things. >> I think have you have you paid attention to what David Ro has done with like on the other end of like fasted training? like he's trying to see how many uh grams of carbohydrates he can he can like digest >> because if he can if he can digest more than the average runner or even get it like to this elevated state he can sustain a threshold pace for much longer and like lay out like insane performances which he did at Leadville. He's gotten injured. He's had some struggles or whatever. It's not perfect but like there is something there also that I think is really interesting. >> Yeah, there definitely is. And in the professional game, it's really coming through now of how many carbs you can consume in an hour. >> That and by carb >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> have made a big difference. >> I've never actually used that, but it is it is interesting. But I think that's better suited to doing one race, >> right? >> Rather than >> And also when you're running a threshold like at a at a when you're like getting into anorobic zones. >> Yeah. And I'm running at 10 to 12 minute miles max where my heart rate happens to be 100. >> Very [laughter] controversial. Low heart rate. >> Yeah. I don't know if anyone else has gone and run a 12-minute mile, but it's like a fast walk and >> your heart rate doesn't really get up very high. [laughter] >> Yeah, when it gets hot it does, but the heat training will keep it keep it down, I would imagine. I think Max's heart rate >> over the course of bad water was like 143 or something like that. >> That's insane. >> I mean, if you ever tried to run in 120° heat, your heart rate just goes through the roof instantly. >> I'm terrible at it. That's why I've started doing the heat training because I thought I could just go to a hot country and >> kind of figure it out, but I couldn't. >> Yeah. Let's shift gears. Uh I'm curious around your experience with psychedelics because I think this has contributed to how you think about not just your running, but like life and what's important. Obviously, everything I've pushed and promoted about getting over like my mom's passing was deeply rooted in destroying my body body physically and finding some kind of spiritual help through through that world. But the other thing that I've done on more than a few occasions now is is psilocybin. And the first time I did it was before actually it was when would that have been? It was after 48:30, so probably 2022. There's always been, like I said, I've always been explorative and around that time I started hearing things around magic mushrooms and their association with like helping people that have gone through trauma etc. So I was always interested in that world and I got a lot of literature, listened to a lot of podcasts about it and then the way I do things which has become quite apparent is I don't want to like half go into something. It's like I went straight to heroic. So I did I did I did six g of psilocybin >> in a medically assisted environment just on your own freewheeling it. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I had this um >> I was >> by the way for the audience out of like uh you know a sense of responsibility please do not try this [laughter] you know >> don't don't do anything I do a single thing that will does >> okay clarify alert the lawyers yes good idea but I went I went through this experience um and for me it was the most trans transformative thing I've ever been through towards the end of the trip like obviously See, it was quite psychedelic and things went a bit crazy. But towards the end, I'd made this little camp. So, like when you're a kid and you take the sheets off the bed and you start getting things, I also had this starlight that shot up a constellation. So, I was I was laying in this m makeshift tent like looking up at this con constellation when the trip was kind of getting to its deepest point. [snorts] And originally all of these stars compiled to make my grandfather's face who was alive at the time. I was like, "Oh, that's very beautiful." And then and then they all went to my mom. And when you do a psychedelic experience, it's like you get told information and you feel like it's like you understand it. It's like you're getting an external voice, but what you're being told is absolutely true. And I felt my mom's presence and spirit within me. I felt very much connected to my dad as well. I felt like I I'm born of both of them, which is which is true. But there was this there was this palpable energy. There was this feeling that she was within me and has carried me this entire way. And I've had similar experiences at like the depths of going going through a run >> and then I had this and I was out in the cosmos, whatever you want to call it. And one of the most profound feelings I've had which I try to carry with me in every day now is I got sucked out of whatever world this was and I was I was out in the constellations and there was this um central consciousness. It was like this huge brain mass of things and I could see the world down there and there were just thousands of these these double it was like um like an airplane's uh jetream >> just shoot just shooting down and the information I got told and it's one of almost forgiveness or understanding why people maybe do things that >> um don't align with your version of feeling is all these jet streams were the perception or the view the lens of people's lives. So from front to back, what they've experienced, what they've seen. And I just had this profound sense that people may do messed up things or things you don't agree with, but if you had the same life lens of them, you would have done exactly the same thing. So there was a lot of like weight lifted off of >> feeling maybe annoyed at like people for having different differing opinions. It definitely leveled leveled everything out quite a lot. And [clears throat] yeah, that was the that was the first experience and the most profound one that made me feel the main the I I wrote down loads of notes, but the main feeling I had. And if I could rate a feeling like number one, I felt reassured. Reassurance. Being reassured in anything is like there's a level of comfort to it. So I just had this >> it's it's fine. >> Yeah. I had this reassurance that like energy energy is forever. There's this cosmos out there. We're living in a somewhat of a matrix, but my mom's energy one is within me, which is a beautiful feeling to have. She's here. She's close. But also, it lasts forever. It's it's everywhere I go. When I'm when I'm running, I I'll always notice like if a bird is like kind of following me, and I'll be like I feel like that's her or a butterfly, whatever. So >> yeah, it was um it was a profound experience and I've done it at like key moments in my life along the way and had a lot of different lessons from it, but it's definitely shaped how I do things and my comfortability with life and when things go wrong and just being able to >> let it go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What are some of those lessons more specifically? The one one great one I had before um America was I was out in Colorado with Robbie and Jason and we were in we're in Jason's cabin which is in the middle of nowhere. There's no electricity. There's no water. There's a stream out there. You turn up and you have to like chop wood and put it on the fire, whatever. [gasps] I did a heroic dose with them and we went out walking in the woods. And around those two guys, I've got like my idol in Robbie, everything he's done. And then I've got Jason, this military guy. He's he's very well spoken. He's very spiritual. So I put both of these guys on a pedestal, which I don't feel like I'm on. I don't feel like I'm these guys level. And we're out we're out walking in the snow. It was it was freezing cold at the time. I think we were his cabin's at 10,000 ft. We had just gone wandering through the woods. Firstly, we had this moment where we all sat down and was just looking out at this incredible scene as the Colorado mountains are, snow everywhere, and we were just like, let's all take a moment for ourselves, so close our eyes. And at that moment, it I had like demons coming out to kind of grab me, but I wasn't scared and I was I lent into it. I was like like, "Show me show me what you want to show me. Like, if I need to go down this journey or whatever, then do it." So I alleviated some kind of fear of the unknown and they they disappeared. But the main thing was on the way back, Robbie and Jason basically let me lead. And I felt that I had matured to a certain level where I could lead great men. It was like a a real transition into feeling like a a man or getting to adulthood in a way cuz these people I love and respect so much >> had almost passed the bat on to me and said, "You lead us." So that was a that was another one that set me set me well for like that next transition or phase in life being I think I was 26 at the time. So getting closer towards 30 and feeling like I could stand on my own two feet and and lead. >> Yeah. What I see is somebody who uh feels like they hold the right balance in terms of wanting to accomplish something great. uh while also recognizing like the true value of that like it's not that important you know like whether you do this or not you know what I mean >> for real [laughter] >> and somebody who has grown from a person who used running to process grief but also to punish yourself like this is what I relate to like I'm in this place of recognizing that the history of my relationship with athletics and specifically like you know swimming and ultra endurance these are vehicles for self- flagagillation you know it's a way of saying I have to pay penance for breathing air and uh that tax that I um owe I can pay by like punishing myself in the pool or you know on these long training days or what have you. Uh and what happens is that you get some material world success and validation for that and so you double down on that but fundamentally the relationship is unhealthy. Like you're you're sort of in this abusive relationship with yourself and you're extracting performances from it and it's powering your life and like moving you towards the things that you want in life. Right? So, it's confusing and my healing journey has really been about understanding that it doesn't have to be that way. And through similar experiences that I've had and then this surgery where I was, it was really just like God or the universe saying you need to stop. You know, >> we're forcing you to stop. We're giving you this get out of jail free card. You can't move. >> The one thing that makes you more uncomfortable than anything is sitting still with yourself and your own thoughts, but there's no escape. So this is your ultra. Like what are you going to make of it? And by deciding to just embrace that rather than be in the mindset that I would have been otherwise and I think most people are in of how quickly can I recover and get back to this person I was before. Saying if I stop resisting the one thing that I know will benefit me, uh who is the better person that I can become as a result of this? like can I sit still at peace with myself? Can I be more present in my life? Can I really commit to a true mindfulness and meditation practice such that it will transform my life in the ways that so many of the great mystics have promised that it will? What will become of me? Who can I become as a result of that investment? And this is not something I've done perfectly, you know, and by any stretch of the imagination, but I would say that I am able to be that person and I am able to hold all of these things that I do more loosely, the podcast, whatever. You know, like these are not that important. You know, what's important is your capacity to give and receive love and show up for the people that you care about and to enjoy your life. And as I begin to build my body back and restore some relationship with fitness, it's not about like punishing myself or seeing how hard I can go or what crazy thing I can do. It's about like how can I honor this body that's carried me for 60 years and nourish it through these things that I love that make me feel like me and then share it for the benefit of other people. And that's something I could not have said like a year ago. >> Yeah. Well, it's been beautiful to see your journey because obviously known you for what, five, six years now and I I know from because obviously Finding Ultra is one of the first books I read alongside Dean's Dean's book. So >> I I understand from a point where athleticism is my life. It's my career. It's my profession. So, I can't imagine what you had to go through of having that side of your life stopped stopped entirely because there kind of was nothing you could do about it at the time. And it's been beautiful to like now you're ripped roll or rich swole. >> You look you look amazing, but it's like I I feel like now my experience and conversation with you, you've got you've got part part of you back. It's like the the whole thing of having something missing. You seem more you seem more complete to me, which is which is a compliment, but also a compliment that you you rode out that storm for so many years of not being able to do something that was so important to you, but still giving things out, giving out love, giving out beautiful things and like this platform, who you have on, how you treat people. So, yeah, I'm appreciative of your journey. >> Yeah, thank you. Um, and I would say that the two psychedelic experiences that I had um, have contributed to that, but they're not solely responsible for it. Like I don't want anybody to get the misapprehension that like you do this thing and then your life changes. Like >> this is on top of like so much other work that you have to do in in in your life through all kinds of therapeutic modalities. And it's really about like how you integrate these experiences and translate them into some kind of contrary action that you can build upon. >> Yeah. The whole point >> the experience itself. I know plenty of people that do this stuff way too much and they're kind of the same person. >> Um >> and I think that our culture has a has a way too cavalier relationship with them. And they're sort of considered benign and they're not benign at all and they're not for everybody. So that's my like that's also my like disclaimer about all of this stuff. I'm not here to evangelize it or say that anybody should or should you know go do this or definitely you should do this. >> I'm on the I'm on the same [laughter] I'm on the same same thing as you. It's just an experience I've done. Like I don't I would never tell anyone to do anything to be honest. It's just my experience. Some things that have helped me along the way. >> We're all trying [snorts] to figure out if there was one-stop shop to fix all of our problems then we'd have figured it out by now. But it's an amalgamation of of everything you go go through and all the practices you do. >> What's the one thing uh that might wake you up in the middle of the night when you're thinking about what you're about to do? Like is there any one aspect of it that you're feeling uncertain about or a little bit wary? >> Maybe it's like the inviting so many people in cuz a lot of these things have just been like me and a crew out in the middle of nowhere whereas this is like major. >> You're smart to limit it to just the first 5K. Yeah, you need a handler to make sure you're not caught up in like, you know, >> Robbie. >> Yeah. He's like, "Come on, we got to go." >> But like people could watch at any point they they want, but I know how locked in I need to be and focused on this thing. And that is um that is an external thing we haven't experienced before. But what I would say about it that makes me confident is when I've run across the US or Australia, when people have shown up, it's been out of the blue, like not planned. So I'm kind of caught off guard. Whereas with this one, I feel like >> it's regimented. >> It's regimented. I feel like a I feel like it's a beautiful opportunity to connect with people cuz there's there's so many people that message me along the way when I'm doing these things like asking how they can take part or be a part of it. And it's a very difficult question to answer. Find my tracker and come and see me if you want. But this is like I get to involve everyone that wants to be involved >> anywhere in the States. So it should be close to where you are if you want to come out and do this thing. Sometimes it might be 2:00 in the morning. Sometimes it might be in the middle of the day on a Wednesday. But yeah, I think it's um it's it's slightly a stress, but how I'm thinking about it is a beautiful opportunity to connect with people, raise more money, hear other stories, and I feel like it will like push me forward to to be performing at my peak. >> It's also going to build as you go. >> Yeah. >> I remember this happened with the Iron Cowboy uh you know, when he started like cuz he was he opened it up like you want to come, you can come. nobody was coming, you know, even though like this is I mean I still can't get my head around I mean it's one thing marathons are one thing like Iron Man's 50 states in 50 days it's like so insane to me it's still so vastly underappreciated what he accomplished >> uh but you know it built along the way so by the time he was you know getting near the end like all kinds of people were coming up and I went for the last day and it was like a rock it was like a rock concert you know [snorts] >> so I would expect something similar for you you cuz more and more like the word will get out. >> Yeah. >> The story is going to get shared. Um and that's a cool energy, you know. >> Yeah. Is it lifts you up a lot? >> Yeah. >> So, I'm exc I'm excited. >> More of that, less of the uh slings and arrows this time around. >> I mean, they'll be around for sure, >> but you know, it's part of it. So, whatever. >> Um I love you, buddy. I'm so excited to watch this go down. And uh all things going well, I will see you in New York City for the New York City Marathon. >> Love you too, brother. Thank you for having me on. And >> another beautiful conversation. I always feel um I've always feel like lifted up or I've I've learned something about myself by talking to you, which is >> I hope so. >> Which is a big compliment. >> Glad to hear that. >> Before we close it down for good, uh two things. Um, first, why don't you take us out with a message to the person who is struggling with making a change in their life, who maybe has had fits and starts, but is deflated because for whatever reason, they can't get over the hump and they're not feeling that self-confidence that you seem to have. >> Uh, I would say what you're weighing up is if you if you don't do this thing, it's going to be way worse than if you start. The hardest thing is often starting, but if you look at like a a more of a bird's eye view, you're struggling now and you're not doing the right things to get over it, the only time to to start is right now. And you might not recognize that person from before who was scared, angry, self-loathing. The only way to get through it is start now. Do hard things and you can reinvent yourself in a beautiful way and >> you can do anything. So second thing, obviously people can follow along on your Instagram. Uh but what is the website where people can engage in the live tracking, find out where you are so they can join you for the 5K run, contribute to the GoFundMe and stand up to cancer, all the good stuff. >> It's going to be on missioname50.org and that will have everything. It's like a HQ website. So, live tracker, roots, ways to donate, all the partner information, everything you could think of under one roof. It's it's very impressive website and there's been a lot of people working on it. So, I'm very grateful to them for that. [laughter] And for all the people uh who are lurking on the um Let's Run forums and uh the Redditors out there, if you're still ringing your hands over what Will did in Australia, you can go to fastestnowntime.com where they have verified that you indeed get got the FKT for your transcontinental run across Australia and they have it back backed up with all these files, verifications, Java files, etc. Yeah, it's good because >> you've been you've been acquitted basically in the court of uh ultra running um controversy. >> Yeah, the highest court of judgment FKT. >> There you go. >> Yeah, if you want to look at if you want to look through it again, be my guest. >> Right on. Uh and we're going to have to do a part two to this after you finish this thing because I I just I I can't imagine the stories that you're going to accumulate along the way here. It's going to be just absolutely insane. >> Yeah, it's going to be it's going to be a good one. I look forward to then. But I'm also looking forward to every step along the way. >> Good. That's the only way you're going to make it, right? >> Uh wind in your sales. Uh and enjoy the Odyssey and uh hopefully you will be Odicius [music] returning home at some point. Uh victorious. Amen. Odyssey. Yeah. Time will tell. >> Um appreciate you, man. Thanks for sharing today. >> Appreciate you, too. Thank you very much. Peace.