Video summary
The podcast addresses a significant demographic shift where young men between the ages of 18 and 30 are increasingly disengaging from traditional relationship structures, with data showing that interest in both casual and long-term relationships dropped from 61% in 2019 to just 50% by 2023. This trend is framed not merely as a cultural anomaly but as part of a broader retreat from friendships and family life that was first observed two decades ago in Japan before spreading globally, potentially accelerated by modern technology. The speakers note the terrifying reality that this decline challenges fundamental biological drives, suggesting that what once seemed hardwired into human DNA—specifically the desire for family and children—is actually more akin to a muscle developed through use rather than an inviolable genetic imperative. To explain how these desires can be lost or diminished despite natural instincts, the discussion references Mary Eberstadt's theory regarding nurture over nature in this specific context, likening it to mimetic learning where behaviors are adopted based on observation and environment. The conversation highlights Stephen Shaw's documentary "Birth Gap" as a key resource that explores birth rates and demographic collapse, noting how societal views have shifted so drastically that intellectual classes struggle with empathy toward those who disagree or hold different values regarding family formation. This lack of understanding is described as an extraordinary empathy gap in the United States today, where arguments are often dismissed as evil rather than being accurately understood before they can be addressed constructively. The speakers argue that reversing this trajectory will not come from economic or structural changes but requires a fundamental shift in people's viewpoints, values, and metaphysics similar to past "great awakenings" in American history. A major obstacle identified is the atomizing effect of devices that keep individuals glued to screens for thousands of hours annually, making it difficult to find spiritual meaning outside oneself or reattach to humanity through community activities like joining clubs or volunteering. While acknowledging that future innovations such as virtual reality might further entrench these habits, the hosts express confidence that a reaction will eventually occur, whether through revulsion or a sad learning process, leading to an opening of minds once more. Throughout the dialogue, there is a strong emphasis on the need for empathy and support for the millions of men currently disengaging from society rather than judgment or dismissal. The speakers caution against assuming that societal trends always move in a linear direction, pointing out that while current data shows a long-term exit from labor force participation among young males, history suggests these patterns can turn around unexpectedly if conditions change sufficiently. Ultimately, the conversation concludes with an optimistic yet cautious outlook, suggesting that even as technology advances and distractions multiply, human resilience will likely find ways to overcome enslavement by devices through collective effort and renewed purpose in community life.
Read the full video transcript
I'm currently kind of obsessed with the
role of men in the modern world their
Retreat from
relationships their Retreat from
friendships overall
have you considered if there is a
broader Dynamic going on here that ties
together the general sort of malaise
that men are finding themselves in
um well I'm not a philosopher but I do
demographics and I can count and uh I
mean I'm a uh I'm a I'm a 67 year old
grandfather with four kids right and so
I am so far from
the Forefront of the battlefield right
now but I can kind of read it the way I
read science fiction and try to kind of
understand it uh but the the idea that
uh the idea let's see how do I put this
for a family audience the idea that
young men would not be interested in
real life women uh
would have been kind of
absurd uh 50 years ago did you see so my
favorite or most terrifying piece of
research that I've seen recently was
from Pew uh in 19 2019
61 of men said that they were looking
for either casual or long-term
relationships in 2023 that number has
dropped to 50 one in two men between the
ages of 18 and 30 aren't looking for
either casual or long-term relationships
now for the men that are listening who
have been through that age bracket or in
it you understand the power the reality
Distortion field that is the male sex
drive between the ages of 18 and 30 the
fact that you can have something that
happens that can overcome that is
yeah wild yeah it's like science fiction
uh what's going on give me put your best
philosopher tin foil hat on and give me
give me your ideas
yeah sure
um
I started looking at this we're getting
away a little bit from Men Without work
but I think I'll wander back to it
um
I started looking at this in Japan the
numbers about Japan about uh uh two
decades ago when uh young men and women
were not only saying that they
were less likely to have had sex by
given you know 20 age 25 age 20 whatever
but also saying that they're less
interested in this and at the time I
thought well everybody knows that the
Japanese are just separate from the rest
of humanity they see us as old Gaijin
they see us as all unspeakably weird
this is just some Japanese thing
little did I know that this was the
leading indicator for where everything
else was going to be going and
I had assumed that we were just in our
regular
Garden variety family Decay thing and
you know post uh War America but then
this um this new eruption comes along
and the uh you know the the wonderful
little devices kind of turn out to be
turbo charging this or at least
complicit in some sort of way with this
and
um I again defer to my boss Mary
eberstadt
um Mary has uh
I won't say argued but she has ominously
mused about the possibility that nurture
and wanting family and wanting children
is not something that is hardwired into
us in our DNA inviolably but rather is
something more like a muscle that we
develop through use and through seeing
the same way that little cats know how
to climb down from trees if they live
with other cats and they get stuck up in
the trees if they don't have cats to
look at
oh okay so it's kind of like a mimetic
yes exactly Renee Gerard and Nemesis
that sort of thing yeah I mean that's
that's the musing of it I you know
that's interesting well I mean so
there's a guy uh Stephen Shaw are you
familiar with Stephen I've heard the
name yeah yeah so he did birth gap which
is a fantastic documentary I know that
you're bigger I talked to him I talked
to him a while ago I haven't seen the
documentary he was in Qatar with me so
he had a debate a couple of days after
me so we got to go for a bunch of
lunches and dinners while I was out
there also brought him on the show I
thought he was absolutely fantastic
um I mean
going back to the men and work thing but
also feel free to fold demographic
collapse in as well how worried you
about all this
well I'm worried about it as a citizen
I'm worried about it as a researcher I'm
worried about it as a parent and you
know a grandparent and somebody would
like to see you know our society
continue
um
things can turn around things things
don't always head in a linear Direction
in fact they seldom seem to have for
very very long in the linear Direction
this 50-year trend in uh the exit from
the labor force a pretty long linear
Trend uh it's exceptional in that way I
think
um
what will turn it around
I think is uh some uh is not going to be
uh economic and uh structural change
it's going to be a change in people's
viewpoints and values and metaphysics
we've had
um as you know we've had a couple of uh
great Awakenings in the United States in
the past we've had other little
eruptions it's going to be a change in
mindset and
um I don't see I don't see why we can't
have a change in mindset as a you know
as a social Observer analyst I can tell
you that our tools are poor enough that
it takes us a while even to recognize
when a change has already started so for
all we could know that you know this
conversation it's already started and
too you know blind and weak to have
detected it yet are you alluding to the
fact that a social change to be able to
give some sympathy support to the chunk
of men that are in this 7 million
um natural yes yes of course of course
empathy and support I mean we have an
extraordinary empathy Gap in the United
States today uh we can't even uh people
who are in the intellectual classes in
the describing classes can't accurately
describe the arguments of people with
whom they disagree because of because
those arguments are bad and evil you
know they can't even do the intellectual
thing of describing this accurately I
mean that's a huge empathy Gap but more
than that I think
um uh finding
um finding spiritual and other meaning
in life that takes you outside of
yourself and reattaches you to humanity
and to Eternity
that's going to be a challenge given how
atomized our devices have made us you
know if you even if you want to go
secular with this right and you want to
say
um join a local pickleball club uh pick
up trash look after the local dogs you
join an art class do yoga do whatever
right yep for as long as you have a
incredibly convenient incredibly
distractible uh highly distracting
device that sits in your pocket getting
yourself up off the couch on an evening
time is going to be hard if you're
spending two thousand hours per year
on the couch playing video games smoking
weed
there's a very high bar for you to get
over there amen amen and uh and I can't
tell you what the next big innovation is
whether it's going to be a chip in the
head or uh what the next virtual reality
well virtual reality is already here
sure I mean just it'll get better and uh
and more uh more enticing
um
it's it's going to have to
um
it's going to have to come from uh you
know from
each from people themselves and it uh it
can't it may be a it may be a revulsion
it may be a sad learning process but
um I don't I don't have any doubt that
uh that we won't we won't entire we will
not entirely be enslaved by this
there'll be some sort of a reaction
which will I think help to uh help to
open people's minds again every single
morning for over three years now I've
started my day the exact same way which
is with element in water element
contains a science-backed electrolyte
ratio of sodium potassium and magnesium
and it is the best hydration drink that
I've ever found it tastes fantastic it's
super refreshing orange is just the most
OP flavor in the world it's absolutely
phenomenal and it helps to play a
critical role in reducing muscle cramps
and fatigue regulates your appetite it
optimizes brain health and it helps curb
Cravings they're also the exclusive
hydration partner to Team USA
weightlifting and rely on by tons of
Olympia athletes and everyday High
performers all around the world also
there is a no BS no questions asked
grief and policy where you can buy a box
completely risk-free and if you do not
like it for any reason they will give
you a refund during an unlimited
duration and you don't even need to
return the box that's how confident they
are that you'll love it element are
giving away a free sample pack of all
eight flavors with your first box if you
go to the link in the description box
below or drink lmnt.com
MW that's drink lmnt.com
MW what's happening people if you
enjoyed that then press here for the
full unedited episode and don't forget
to subscribe
[Music]