The Lessons we Can Learn from Dogs (The Search for Meaning in these Difficult Times)

[music] Welcome to the search for meaning in these difficult times on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Jay Fidel. This episode is called The Lessons We Can Learn from Dogs. Yes, they can be our best friends. Our co-host for the show is Chang Wong. Welcome to the show, Chang. >> Aloha, Jay. Well, shall we see? >> Nicely done. [laughter] You know, living with a dog is not simply caring for a pet. It is entering into one of humanity's oldest friendships. Dogs remind us to live in the present, to love without calculation, to forgive without resentment, and to remain faithful through joy and sorrow. in teaching us to care for another another life. They quietly teach us how to become better human beings. They teach us a lot and we can learn from them. So Chang, I have some questions for you. You know, you spoke in in your write up on the show about the domestication of wolves to dogs. How did that happen? Is it complete or are there elements of the the wolf the wolf in all the dogs left behind? >> I honestly I have no idea. I'm not scientist and uh uh in reading the uh books and [snorts] I understand the dogs are direct descendant of wolves but there's a important fact it appears most scientists don't believe human being adopt dog adopted themselves to be a family member member of the human humankind. So exactly when it happened we don't know and uh obviously this is a very good thing in human history without dogs and humans will suffer much more and in our summary of the program we said dogs teach us to be a better human being and that is not exaggeration. Just think about as Sean Bosard your favorite philosopher said other people's are evil and look at the entire human history the percentage of evil definitely much larger than good people if we can name a few but how many bad dogs you can name I can't name anybody I think there's all dogs are good dogs. Well, let me ask you a question. And you said you have one dogs in your hospital right now. And we are we I strongly encourage you to have at least two so they can play and so whenever you go out and they won't not feel too lonely. I have a three in our household right now. We had four and their father passed away a year and a half ago as you cannot accept it. Uh for these four dogs with us for the past 12 the father passed away at 17 and a half and currently I have three 12 and a half 12 and a half and 11 and a half. So the for for the past uh one and a half decade I think that had this has become the best time in my life even you know we have we face many many challenges domestically and internationally uh I'm not sure dog has changed my life because I already completely forgotten what my life was like before dogs. Can you remember how many dogs you have in your life? And was there any one dog or several dogs actually changed you changed the your perspective on excuse me on dogs on other human beings or you how you understand yourself and human relationship. had uh three dogs. >> You had three dogs. >> And yeah, three dogs. And one was The first one was a uh a small dog and the second was a German Shepherd dog and the third now is a small dog. And uh what you know what the first one changed our lives because we had no experience with dogs at all and not sure you know why we got into it but it it did teach us a few things. I guess the most profound lesson was something you referred to and [clears throat] that is it teaches you how to be a better person. And that that goes a little further than just being a better person with the dog. It teaches you about yourself. It teaches you about how to deal with other human beings. It teaches, you know, and it's it's very zen, if I can use that word. And maybe, you know, ultimately in this discussion, we we'll get to, you know, the Buddhist implications of all of that. But um that that first dog, I still remember that dog today. and we have a picture in our house of that dog and uh she was really wonderful. The second dog was a German Shepherd and the reason we got the J the second dog was because somebody was um you know offending our our our house. They were taking fish. We have we have we had fish also in our house and people were coming around stealing the fish. The dog protected us from those people. Um, and the third dog was back to a small dog, a terrier that, um, you know, was a love dog, is a love dog. She's part of the family and she's 15 and I am so concerned and worried that one day she will not be with us anymore. By the way, she's listening to this show as we [laughter] speak. >> Well, good dog. My dog is sleeping right now and uh my dog is a very not very smart dog, not like a border collie or something and they don't watch TV. They don't really listen to conversation and they are but they are they are smart in their own ways but what you just said I have a second thought. You said the dog teach us how to deal with other human being. It didn't it didn't occur to me because for the past you know 15 years 17 years I've been you know living with dogs. I think that my social intelligence actually dis decreased. I don't really know how to deal with human being because I've been dealing with dogs and the dogs are so not I would not use the word simple but they are so straightforward they're happy they're just happy they're not happy they're not happy they are not m they they don't know what is manipulation they don't know what is calculating and they don't know what is fake And they do not look at people's status. They do not look at people's wealth. They do not uh reading between lines. So for decades, one and a half decades living with dogs, I almost forgot how to deal with human being. So I don't know how how dogs can teach you to deal with human being. I I agree that dogs teach us to be a better human being but uh to survive in the human society in this jungle intelligence definitely is not helpful in my view. Uh what is you also mentioned in our episode in the introduction dogs are human's best friend. What what exactly that make this relationship extraordinary? So everybody talk about their dogs, their pets, that's their family member, that's best friend and uh almost universally people will smile when they talk about their dogs. Is that because of dog seem to love you and your family member without any calculation without status many achievement any ideology or any of the things human use to judge each others don't do don't use those measurement to judge us is that make us why we are so fond of dogs and dogs so fond of us what exactly You are so feel so comfortable and happy when you are with dogs. >> Well, I think you have to go back to the question of domestication and you have to understand, you know, what human wilds are like. All those negative aspects of humanity and that dogs help us understand a better life if we set those aside. But let's look at the cave. I think, you know, we've got to look at the cave, whether it was 50,000 years ago or a 100,000 years, you know, the the wolves came into the cave and if the wolves were friendly, they would be shued away and they would be kept in the cave. If they were unfriendly, they would be shued away from the cave. So, it was a process of selection. The dogs that made us happy, that helped us in some way, were the ones who could stay by [clears throat] the fire and eat with us in the cave. And it was a process of selection so that the dogs who were friendly be became part of the family. They could stay with us. They could share our food. and we had a kind [clears throat] of uh you know relationship uh where [clears throat] we would help them and they would help us by protecting us and so forth. Um and so I think it's more than just an amazing um phenomenon. It's it's a a process of selection and that was the domestication that I have in my mind when I ask you about domestication. Um I think um our our terriers, the Yorkshire terriers, both of them um you look into their eyes and what you see is an animal, a mammal who understands you very well and who is um trying to maintain that relationship that that animal knows that if he's or she is friendly with you um he'll get fed and he'll have the comfort of the cave. It's a reciprocal arrangement. And so this is something that was established over many many generations of humans and dogs. And the dogs found a place. They found a place by the hearth. They found a place next to us. And they know in some DNA level, some process of selection level that if they fill that role, they'll have a better life. They won't have to scrge for food. They won't have to be subject to uh you know the problems of living in the natural wild and we on the other hand coming from the cave will be better off because our friend is also our protector. And so I think this reciprocal arrangement goes way back and [clears throat] it is the process of selection. Let me say on both sides on both sides we got to understand them. They got to understand us and the people who enjoyed the relationship lived longer better lives. >> Well, I agree with you a description of the domestication process and by mutual selection and that remind me actually human being repeated that experiment in 20th century. I believe that was in Russia and Russia domestication of fox. So they have like a large number of of fox and then they begin to select which fox to to breed and to keep. And so if the fox exhibit any independent trait and uh rebalance or you know nonsubmissive the false either be killed or just simply not uh selected for breeding. So they will not have offsprings and the most submissive and friendly quote unquote folks will be selected and to to produce offspring. Three generations after three generations all the f become extremely friendly again quote unquote to human beings. That was a in my view it's a brutal experiment and but perhaps that reveals how the dogs were selected and uh all why we have so many different you know dogs and most of them are pretty friendly and uh uh breeders make a huge profit out of it. But that leads to naturally to a question of where do you adopt your dogs and uh interestingly enough I have never had experience of uh go to a breeder and I I love German Shepherd. I love Akita Shibainu. I I love large dogs. But by pure serendipity, my wife adopted and rescued and just a small dog on the street. And those dogs are not a pedigree. And our first dog was just uh who passed away 17 and a half years old. It was what we call a a country dog, a rural dog. Those are the dogs uh just so common in China's countryside farmers and peasants use them as a guard dogs at home and not really pets just [snorts] a guard dog and they don't really sleep with their you know human being and they do small errands and generally speaking it just U and you can use cheap because they have no price. Nobody going to pay a price to buy a rural country dog but uh uh my wife rescued our first dog on the street and then we have because he never got he was never got a fixed and we have number of sons and daughters of that dog very lucky. So when he passed away I have three his three sons with me. So in this case you can see the completely different characteristics of the dogs or rural dogs instead of pet dogs where you can buy from a breeder. And so you can they have a pedigree they have a certificate you know exactly they come from. We don't know where our first dog came from. And uh two of his songs are quite independent and one of them are even some sort of a maverick and he will not he will not please you and he wants to go that way. You have to go with him. So when we say walk the dogs the dogs walks me for sure. And the third dog, unfortunately, he was living with a a remote family relative for several years and he was you neglected, abused and traumatized. So this dog, the third dog with us, he become extremely submissive and extremely pleasing. And when you pet other dog, he just rush to by your side and try to get some love. And that's a little bit sad and even pathetic. But my experience with my dogs are totally different from the domestication process. It's not a selection, is not a natural selection, is not an artificial selection. Everything just happened by pure serendipity and by coincidence. And now we have two quite independent dog and one of them is true marvery and one very submissive dog not be because not from selection but by traumatization. So that's my dogs. >> I want to tell you a story. You know we had our first Yorkshire terrier. She was pure bred and our current Yorkshire terrier is a is a mix. It's a mix. Um, and if I had to compare the two, I would I would prefer the mix. Now, that that's in in part that's kind of um a social thing. It's kind of a uh a philosophical thing. I I I prefer the mix, I think, for for two reasons. One is the mix is likely to live longer. Um the pure bread, you know, has issues about disease and vulnerability and all that. Uh the mix doesn't have those problems and knockwood, our our mix Yorkshire terrier will last a long time. Knockwood. Um so that's one thing, but I want to tell you a story about our vet. So, we had the the first dog and then we got a German Shepherd dog. And she said, "You realize," she was right about this, "you realize that as soon as you get two dogs in the house, they have a relationship and it's not as monogamous, if you will. Um, that of what you had before. In other words, your first dog alone uh has a relationship with the human beings in your house. Now if you add another dog it changes. Um now you have a different social mix, a different statement of the connection and they have to get along with each other or not. Um and they have to get along trying to get your attention or not. And so um she said be be prepared for the fact that it will not be the same. And she was absolutely right about that. And I would not add just one statement. One morning um early in the morning, my wife put out food for our Yorkshire who was like 4 lb and food for our German Shepherd who was like 60 lb. And um and I guess the the Yorkshire went into the bowl of of of the German Shepherd. Well, that created a contention, a competition, a fight. And um the German Shepherd flipped the Yorkshire terrier over on its back and went for a kill move because that's built into every German Shepherd no matter what. And uh nearly killed her. We saved her. We took her early in the morning to the vet and he saved her with a bunch of stitches all through her belly. So what I'm saying is um you know the relationship is different when [clears throat] you add additional dogs and they have their own kind of family within your family. Um, but I get along fine with one at a time. Uh, and because I want to have the most pure and um the most loving possible relationship with my dog my or my dogs. I can do both, but I I actually prefer the one. But I want to I want to ask you about love. Okay. Uh, you know, you mentioned and we've been talking about authenticity and honesty. this kind of social honesty that dogs bring to the table and love. When they look at you and you look at them, there's real love. And they're teaching us, I suppose, about pure love. But and and our love is perhaps more conditional. Look at all the issues you can have with human love. It's complicated. It's not complicated, you know, with dogs at all. I ask you, is it the same kind of love or is when the dog seems to be loving you, is the dog loving you for the food, the company, the protection, the family, or is, [clears throat] you know, or is the dog loving you uh on some level of condition? In other words, can you teach a loving dog not to be a loving dog? I I think it's possible, don't you? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I my answer is probably company. It's not about food. It's it's some sometimes it about the food. But when there's no food, the dogs still love you. And I I I can I can tell you that why I think dog teach me how to uh be a human being. Not only a not really a better human being, just simply be a human being. And uh when I started to have dog you know daily walk two walks with the dogs was a burden for sure you know you have to walk you know in order for them to do their business I have to I calculated have to I have to walk more than 3,000 steps in order to afford all to finish their business and that was quite a burden you know sometime you want to sit down and watch TV sometimes you want to read books. Sometime you have email need to reply. Sometimes they're urgent, you know, uh a work call and so my mind is always on something else when I walk my dogs and that I just watch them you know quick please finish with so we can go home to continue my life. Now I don't do that you know after uh I think after co and every time I walk with my dogs that is a business that is official business of my life that is the best time I can have just walking with my dogs and you see how happy they are and what how simp how happy they are just enjoying ing the simple pleasure just sneiffing this sneiffing that you go this way go that way and they don't think about anything else they just enjoy the moment and enjoy your company and just have the fresh air just walking for 30 40 minutes and they enjoy every second of it and I am enjoying every second of it now so that's why I think dog really teach us how to Because you know I think we in our past conversations we talk about a lot of human conditions and human problems after my path my uh late father passed away and I realized one thing very clearly 99% of all our life all our efforts all Our contribution and all our achievement will not be remembered and there will be no trees on this planet like my dad like other any human being before us. So what exactly we should live our life? I think dog teach us how to live our life and that is just forget all your problems. Just take a walk, sneeze, look at what's around you and breathe the fresh air. So that's I think that why having a dog is so much important to uh I think to people's mental health because I do not think there's any uh psychiatrist or doctor uh you know doctors can help us with our real problems which mostly happened in the minds in the brains is not on the body. Uh I do have a question. You know I mentioned to you I think my my dogs are not very smart and that is not a directory because they really don't know how to watch TV and they they they cannot figure out a lot of things but there's this one thing they are very very good at. they can read my emotions. And when I walk in the house, I'm happy, I'm not happy, I'm depressed. And uh when I'm engaging in a a small, you know, uh tension with my family members, they read immediately and they quickly run to the bedroom and hide under the under the bed. So why the dogs are so good at reading people's human, you know, human emotions? Why they are so good at reading humans, our voices, from our voices, from g gestures, from our moves, and even from our silences? And do you think that dogs actually understand us better than we understand ourselves? >> Oh, I do. Yes, indeed. I do. Absolutely. you know, I've seen that so many times. Um, they they can read it. Why they can read it, I don't know, except to say that they see themselves at some cortical level as members of our family. And if you if you are a member of the family, hopefully a sensitive member of the family where you can read people's feelings, the me the feelings of other members of the family, >> [clears throat] >> um, you react. And so um they become members of the family very early in life and they know you perhaps better than you know them. And uh and of course it's an echo chamber, isn't it? In other words, if they're suffering, you're suffering. If they're worried, you're [clears throat] worried. If they're down about something, you're down about something. And so it's a two-way street. All this is a two-way street. It's a it's a bubble of emotional family and yeah no question in my mind that they they are very sensitive to how we >> I just you think about another true story to illustrate how not smart my dogs are and bear with me I think that's important and so during the covid you know we basically confining our house for a long time and was about 2022 finally, you know, the world reopened and there and I got a chance uh to spend a week in Vienna, Austria and to teach. So, it's a very short, you know, gig and uh as a visiting visiting professor at the university. And so my wife and I were so thrilled said, "Okay, now we can finally go back to Europe, spend some time and one week work and then one week vacation." So I have to say that after we have dogs, our life has been completely changed. our schedule and everything is centered around dogs and very rarely two of us can travel together because one of them have to be at home with the dogs and uh uh even we are at home and I cannot leave the house more than 6 hours. 6 hours maximum. 4 hours is the norm. So, you know, I will try to get back home within 4 hours. We can collect the dogs out back in the backyard. But that year, we were so happy. We said, "Okay, we need to see our old friends and in Rome and so we we need to spend our week and just a a vacation." And so we will be out of uh house for two weeks. What we do? We have a very uh you know love lovely family neighbor a neighbor family and uh uh they have three daughters all love dogs and so I think so terrific. I will pay the girls and so they will come to our house uh three times a day. Let walk the dogs and feed dogs, change water and just and I also have uh cameras webcam installed everywhere in our house. So so I can I can see where the dogs are. I can call the uh my neighbor girls. So I think is everything is being arranged perfectly and I thought you know because I read somewhere that you uh when you go when you travel do not put your dog in a dog hotel. >> I agree with that 100%. Chang I agree with that. >> Camps for dogs. We put our uh one of our dogs in a so-called dog hotel for nine days and it was a worst experience for him. I think forever and he he he refused to eat. He ref and he was so depressed thought he was abandoned. So I promised my daughter I would never do that again. Therefore this time when we planning this travel international travel I begged my neighbor girls to take care of them and they happily agreed. So I said okay they will stay at their home. I have a webcam and I have enough food. The the girls will come to our house three times a day. The girls actually know the dogs. So the dogs know the girls. So I think there's no issue. Day one when we flew from Minneapolis St. Paul International Airport direct flight to Amsterdam that was uh a little bit over 10 hours flight. When we landed in Amsterdam, that was about 100 a.m. in Minneapolis, I think. And then I turn on my webcam. My dogs are waiting by the door. They just waiting by the from the door. They have no idea what's happening. And uh even I told them I bring the uh neighbor girls and we we practiced we rehearsal the uh the girls walk them the with me together. The dogs have no idea why we didn't get home at 1:00 a.m. It's so dark. They just waiting by the door just standing there and sitting there and nervous as hell. So I was crying and my wife was crying. We don't know what to do. So, we took a a a connection flight. We landed in Vienna. That is about 6:00 a.m. in Minneapolis time. I look at my camera. We were waiting by the door. So, they didn't sleep a second. That fourth night we were out. And I was so devastated. I I thought I made the biggest mistake in my life. I want to cancel everything and just take a return flight back to Minneapolis. So my daughter say go to sleep but obviously I couldn't. I have a a a duty. I have to you know teach for one week. So what happened is as soon as we check in hotel and I called the girls and let them know what happened and the girls had not couldn't do anything about it. The dogs refused to sleep. So I cancelled everything. I canceled the entire second week. So as soon as I finished the first week teaching, we were back in Minneapolis. And lot and unfortunately the dogs were so exhausted even they didn't sleep during the evening. They had to you know get some sleep during the day. So when the girls were there they sat and I look at a webcam sometime they took a nap during the day but for the one week their biological clock was completely messed up and they were their their life was totally upside down and so after that I said I will not do ever do that again and that is brutal to the dogs but that why I use this this as an example is the dogs really don't understand what's going on. They don't they they don't have the concept of the past, present, future. They do not worry about the past problem. They do not worry about the future. Uh they do not anxious about the future. They live in the present. The present they are not here. And so that you know I I was uh [snorts] very you know humbled by their you know loyalty a love but at the same time I have to say that boys you know relax I will be back in two weeks. Now I have to change everything, change the flight and uh and and cancel all the hotels, cancel all the all the visits just to be back with my dogs. But that is that is something I think the non-d dog owners will will never understand. They said human beings are better more important than dogs. You know you hear that in different culture which is more important human being or dogs and my answer to that is this is a completely fake question. Okay. What do you mean a human being is more important or dolls? Dolls are important. They're dolls life, dolls love, dolls pain and suffering. And they are as paramount as important as any human beings love, pain and suffering. And they are exactly the equal. So when the people who utter this nonsense, who what is more important human being or dog? What's your comparison? What's your measurement? What do you mean is that you mean you can abuse, kill, even eat dogs just because of their they are not human being? So I think that is a total fake question and that really I think I actually authored a number of articles arguing and advocating for animal rights. In the next year 2027, I told my university here, I will stop teaching American law and I will begin to teach animal law. And because I first of all, even I'm a attorney in the United States, I know nothing about American law. Okay? Everything I learned from law school doesn't work in reality. Okay? Constitutional law just for forget it. separation of powers, check and the balances. There's no such thing. So there's nothing I can teach American law about. I translated US constitution. I translated constitution of the state of Minnesota. I translated the constitution of the state of Massachusetts, the first constitution in the United States. I authored a 1700page US constitution law textbook. Now I just put them in the shelf. I said I will not I probably don't need to touch them in my lifetime because there is no such thing called the US constitutional principles but I still truly believe there's a lot of things we can do about animals and we can and so I want to study research and even teach animal law and animal rights because though I think they are as important as human beings You're right about separation. There's nothing so painful for an animal to be separated from the family. And for a lot of people, there's nothing so painful to be separated from animals that are part of the family. And separation, the ultimate separation is is when the animal dies or when when the member of the family dies. And I think they're very sensitive to that, too. So, a lot of people say that the death of a dog was one of the most devastating losses in their lives. Sometimes more acute than losing human relations. Um, because human love is maybe more conditional, less unconditional than the love you have with your animal. So, what does that actually reveal about where, you know, our connection uh with the animals? But we're we're starving uh for in our human connections. Perhaps it's more more [clears throat] pure, more intense, more connected with an animal. Um and you know, everybody has to take that into account in dealing with the dog. Every day, every walk you take, every meal you provide, every loving look you give and get uh with your animals, you have to be thinking, how long is this animal going to last? How long is our bond together going to last? What what will I feel when the animal is gone? What will the animal feel when I'm gone? Uh how do you deal with the grief of that? Some people they go out and spend lots of money on cloning their animals, which I I find an interesting question. Um but how do you deal with that? The grief of loss and the death of an animal. >> Let's analyze in in both ways. First uh the dogs mourn the passing and loss of his or her family member. Have you seen the movie Hachi by Rich Gear? And that was a true story and actually that was happened in in Japan. the Akita waiting for his, you know, father or owner for 10 years by the train station. And Japanese people even installed a statute for for this dog. And America, Hollywood adopted adapted into a movie Hachi and changed the location from Japan to uh I think Princeton, East Coast, University Town. Rich Gear played the owner university professor suddenly died but the Akita had no idea that waited for 10 years waiting for his you know owner to return and they will mourn us until the last breath and I mourn my dog I still mourning my dog my dog our dog senior passed away in December on December 15 2024 for and I still, you know, miss him every single minute of it. And after he passed away, uh, we buried him in our backyard. Now we have a a tombstone and he will be here for, uh, with us forever. So that's one actually that is one reason we are hesitant to move out of Minnesota with all our doses here. Honestly, you know, we we don't think we can really under the current political circumstances, I don't think it's a very wise idea, you know, uh to to retire, you know, even in the greatest state of Minnesota. And you you probably hear that re recently there's a resurfaced some argument if there's a a conflict between United States and China the Chinese Americans should be interamented it should be put in concentration camp just what FDR did to the Japanese cit US citizens of Japanese descent that will happen I will not surprised nothing will surprise anymore in this country and In this war, evil people just begin to shoot each other on the street and killing each other and even eating each other. I will not be surprised because that exactly is the human nature. But the dogs will not never give me this kind of danger, this kind of threat and uh we have to uh you know I I miss my dog. What exactly we are missing? We are mourning a friend, a companion, a relationship or a entire chapter our of our own lives. I don't have the definitive answer to that. I think I'm mourning all of them. I more my dog as independent sentient being. I more our relationship. I more his gaze and his smile and his play and also miss the time we spend together and so I I miss every everything we were together and that actually this morning we talk about the death of a a dog a pet and le this leads to me some venting about our animal health care system. I don't think just as broken as human healthare system, there is no such thing as animal healthare system. And I give you two examples. One example is and when our old dog and uh near the end and he was so weak and he couldn't move and couldn't eat and we brought him to the vet. This W even didn't touch him and even didn't exam him and just tell us put him down. I said no way. He's still conscious. He still look at us still try to communicate with us. We will not let him down. And the vet didn't say it loudly but basically said not worth your money. And so we were so sad. We went back home, brought him back home. We we just buy everything we can, you know, the nutrition paste and and so we have a little uh tube. We can feed him water for for another couple months. But we didn't know actually later after his passing, we did a lot of research because that was quite shocking to us. Actually, he could receive IV injection that could give him nutrition and strength and could prolong his life. But the at least the vet we met even didn't occur to him that was what we wanted and what the that is what good for the dog. And then the last months the dog was had had a our dog had a few strokes. And so the we we brought to the emergency and then we we brought actually the last two weeks we brought the dog to emergency animal emergency three times. And every time the first sentence uttered from the vet is put him down. And so we just uh so shocked by this we said okay first of all I don't think we have a right yet to put down another sentient being I don't just have I don't have the right and now I I think the dog is try his best try to live one more day and one more hour and it's our job to ease his pain to make him as comfortable as possible and just and not just simply put him down. But obviously you can argue uh opposite and say that actually he he was he suffered and by not be putting down but honestly we just don't have the the capacity and understanding what is best for the dog. But we were charged by not doing anything. The vet the so-called emergency room charged us astronomical, you know, uh, amount for just look at the dog. And [clears throat] so honestly, I think there's something terribly wrong with both human humans healthcare system and the animals healthcare system. And because they all become for profit and as soon as you have a pro for profit the the focus is not the well-being of human being or the animal the focus is what is the best and the way to charge the maximum amount and to the so-called patient. So that's a little bit vetting about you know uh our to the animal care system. I don't have any solution and and I don't think there's any solution there. There will there will not be any solution for that. So that's just a the sad fact and we have to deal with it. If we have dogs, we have pets and we have to think about how to deal with the end. And that has to be factor into our entire plan because we had no plan when our old dog near the end. We had no plan when my father near the end. Now I have to begin to think about is there anything I can do to plan for for my dogs and for my loved ones. >> Chang, you know, you're an extraordinary guy and you feel so intensely a sense of responsibility aside from loving the animals. you feel responsible for them and you want to give them, you know, the best treatment you possibly can and have them live [clears throat] a the best and longest life possible. But not I want to tell you something you might not realize. Not everybody feels that way. Some people get the advice from the vet about putting the dog down and they say, "Sure, put him down. I got to I got other things to do. I'm I'm not going to hang around for this and watch the suffering. I'm not going to hang around for this and, you know, and bring him back to the emergency vet clinic three times. Uh I'm not going to take all these extraordinary steps. Put them down. And then there are cultures in the world today where dogs are treated like the proverbial dogs. They're not cared for at all. They're not fed. They wander the wander the streets. Um and they become you know vagabond out out outlaw and uh that's a real problem because nobody cares in some cultures nobody cares about those dogs and they are treated very badly and there is no law about animal rights. There's no law about um you know restricting uh offensive breeding practices or factory farming or other violations of decency. Um, and so, um, if you're talking about your style and your feeling and your sense of responsibility and your sense of call it animal law, animal animal decency, uh, you you're you're the minority case. The the world does not feel that way at all. And many cultures don't feel that way. And many people in our culture don't feel that way. Think of Christy Christy Gnome. She shot her puppy. Let's distinguish two things. One, put dog down is not necessarily a bad thing. I I I think most people make that choice and uh because they don't want their dog to suffer and they and they have total right to do that and uh they do not a lot of those people they do not treat animal as animal do not treat animal as property they treat animal as family member but they said ethnicia probably the best you know the peaceful just put found it might be the best for the for the well-being of the dog. And uh I do not judge them and I do not think they made the right wrong choice. I just do not think I have the right to do that because I treat my dogs as equal as myself. I do not want I think I if I'm nearing death, I do not want somebody else make make the decision for me. And uh so that that's one thing. Secondly, for the society, the culture, nation and tribe whatever and they do not treat animals and with minimum dignity and that I have to say that they are worse than animals honestly and we I think there's one politician once mentioned that how do you judge a society? Just look at how the society treat the most vulnerable in the society. Who are the most vulnerable in your society? The animals. And that including not only pets, dogs, you know, cats, birds, [snorts] but also cows, you know, pigs, chickens, and been slaughtered and family, you know, factory farmed. And so if you look at our society, you'll be horrified. This is a total barbarian society. We pretend we're civilization. This is not a civilization. It's total barbarity and and even worse than medieval barbarity. And so the because medieval time, middle time, middle ages, they didn't have the capacity and industrialization or the weapon to of mass killing, mass killing dogs, mass killing other human beings. So again back to our original topic, what the doctor teach us? I think doc teach us what is decency, what is in life, not only about companionship, relationship or love. This your normal things they teach us. They teach us how to be a human being. Not only be a not not only be a better human being, just to be a human being. be a human being and have some fundamental understanding of our lives and uh I think that is what dog teach us for the past one and a half decades. One thing I couldn't imagine is how I going to deal with the the end of my three dogs right now and whether or not we will adopt more dogs and uh perhaps we will and we will go to shelters. We will just rescue as much as we can. We brought the all the dogs basically rescued all of them and uh and that I think that that's the best investment quote unquote we have ever made in our entire life. >> Well, let me uh let me go to one last question I wanted to ask you about. Uh we we've talked often in this series um about finding meaning and uh that that takes us to Buddhist traditions. So on death, rebirth and continuity, impermanence and the like. We've had a lot of discussion about all those Buddhist concepts. But if Buddhist traditions suggest a faithful dog could be reborn, reincarnated as human uh or that we could return, we could return as animals. Does that idea comfort us or unsettle us? What does it mean that a philosophy taken seriously would erase the hard line we draw between human and animal souls? And should we have that line at all? When we look at a dog, when we look at a dog, uh are we are we barred from fully uh understanding the animal and understanding our relations by this notion of distinguishing between human and animal or should we dissolve that line and see it all as a continuum? It's a appears to be simple but is very profound question and what I can say is the the in reincarnation of either animal or human being actually it's very comforting and so there I believe there's a Hollywood movie is about the reincarnation of the dogs the the dogs reborn again again try to find his you know original owner and in in In Buddhist concept, the dots could be our cousins in our past lives, could be our best friend in our past lives and they they can reincarnate as uh human being again and reincarnate as another animal and we can reincarnate at another animal. Next time we might become a a a member of a wolf pack or a shelter dog. So it the all the everything is interdependent and how how we going to reincarnate is largely dependent on how do we live our current lives and how do we treat other sentient beings and human beings and that is not necessarily you know good deed will lead lead to good reincarnation bad deed lead to bad incarnation. is much more like a butterfly effect. And so there's a a a butterfly just um shake its wings in New York and there will be a thunderstorm in Boston sometime next Tuesday. So that we cannot predict anything. But I think what we can we can predict is I think looking at the eyes of a dog they are much larger than a small animal. They are much larger than what a dog's eye can reveal and it's much larger than we can comprehend. So remember dog is God reverse G O D or D O G. So that sometime I think that my dog have some supernatural you know uh connection to the higher being than I do. >> Wow. [laughter] Well, you are really dedicated and this has been a great discussion with you Chang. But we're out of time. We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much to our co-host Chang Wong. I'm Jay Fidel, host of the search for meaning in these difficult times and dogs can help us. The title of this episode is the lessons we can learn from dogs and we need to examine that because what we have examined today is only part of it. There are very profound lessons that we haven't discussed but we can learn from dogs. Thanks to our viewers for watching. We'll see you again soon for the next one. Aloha. Aloha Chang. >> Aloha J. Warm. Warm.