The Latest in Design with 2025 National Design Awards Winner Nu Goteh

Welcome. I'm Alexandra Hadkowski. I'm the curator of public programs here at Cooper Hewitt, where I also lead the National Design Awards. Since 2000, the awards have celebrated designers making innovative and impactful work. We start with an open call and then culminate with 10 winners selected each year by an esteemed jury across design disciplines. And this afternoon, we're here to celebrate New Goate, the founder and principal of Room for Magic and co-founder of Deem Journal and our 2025 National Design Awards winner in the emerging designer category. An award. Yeah, welcome. So, um, the emerging designer category, it's an award that recognizes exceptional talent early in a career and strong promise for shaping the future of design. And I can tell you NewsWork profoundly exemplifies that vision. As a designer, strategist, and educator, New approaches design as a tool for communities to reclaim their futures. Over the past year alone, he has participated in exhibitions, lectures, podcasts, and he also hosts his own multi-day symposium called Designing for Dignity. He's part of an emerging generation of designers who integrate design with culture, art, and community. And through his global platform spanning all different types of media, print, digital, and experiential work, new advances in understanding of design as a process rather than simply an output. He is really, and you'll see, uh, one of the best storytellers I know. And he uses this skill and his knack for creative direction for organizations like Art for Justice Fund, the Ford Foundation, the National Memorial for the Underground Railroad, as well as brands including Jordan and Headspace. Influenced by his Iberian heritage and engagement with counterculture, new is such a powerful voice for design as a social practice. Uh so the format is that new is going to present his work. So we'll learn more a lot more about what he's up to and then he'll be joined in conversation by Salom Aga who's our who's the deputy director of strategy and innovation at the new museum where she also oversees new inc's cultural incubator for creative practitioners. Somay is also an artist, researcher, and educator working at the intersection of participatory design and emerging technologies. She joins us at a pivotal moment. As many of you know, New Museum has just opened an incredible new expansion last week. Hope you got some rest. [laughter] Um it's so exciting and we'll hear um a little bit more from from her on that too. So together um they're going to offer a timely conversation on contemporary design practice. We'll have time at the end for questions. So I hope you'll join us in that discussion and please welcome or please join me in welcoming new to the stage. Thank you. [applause] >> Hello. Hello. Hello. How's everyone doing? >> Cool. Thank y'all for coming out. I heard there's issues with trains, planes, brains, all the things. Um, so I am going to talk to you about design and what design means to me and how I navigate this field of design. And so the question, what do you mean by design is a prompt that I often sit with because a lot of times I have to explain my work to people. And even in winning the National Design Award, people are like, "Oh, so you're a graphic designer." I'm like, "No, you're fashion." No art. No. And it's like none of those things. And so in that this attempt of what do you mean by design is really personal for me and how I can really start to think about my practice but then also a reflection of what I see in the design field as well. And so starting off strategist, educator, designer, artist, dad. I think the dad part is doing a lot of heavy lifting because a lot of my time right now is spent with two young individuals as a young individual myself and trying to help them understand how to navigate a world that I also don't know um how to navigate. And so I didn't always start off as a designer. I used to work in marketing and brand for brands. So, I worked for Puma, for Red Bull, um for Sonos, and I was really good at making inanimate objects valuable, making things cool. People were lining up for shoes, for shows, and it was the murder of Trayvon Martin that radicalized me, that really flipped the switch in my brain and had me sit and start to think about how am I participating in the world that I currently live in, but how am I instigating the world that I want to bring upon? And I didn't think that marketing was going to be the vehicle to do that. And so spoiler alert, I did not necessarily seek out design. This question was asked to me earlier. I wasn't seeking out design in terms of the making in design. I was looking for ways to solve problems and what was the best way to solve problems. And in that I stumbled upon this program at Parson's called strategic design and management. It had the right string of words. I was, okay, well, strategic, that sounds, my parents would be proud of that. Um, design, okay, management, okay, well, I've managed people. So, I was like, this seems like it makes sense for me. And so, I ended up joining this graduate program. I was in the third graduating class. Um, I have a good friend who's here, Joel. Joel was in the transdisciplinary program. and the difference between those two programs because I saw the transdisciplinary design first and I was like wow that is awesome they are doing all the things thinking about it and then I saw strategic design and management I was like oh that's what happened when you take this and you take capitalism and you fuse it together I should probably move towards this and the moving towards that was just in terms of me coming to the United States um as a refugee and my parents instilling in me if if you're not a lawyer lawyer, doctor or engineer, then why are you wasting your time? Why would we even bring you here to waste everybody's time? And so I was like, okay, I need to like move towards this that would bring me much more safety. But so in that I like I was saying, I wasn't necessarily pursuing design as an aesthetic practice, but more was looking for problem solving. And upon me finding design, I realized like, oh, there's an opportunity to also think about how we're solving the problems as well. And along the way, I was able to convince people by asking very naive questions. I think that's one of my superpowers is my naive that I use. Naive with illusion of grandeur. I also really really am a fan of myself and how myself can think about something and manifest that. And then that led me um to winning an awesome award last year. And so if you look on the stairwells, I was surrounded by people who were sitting at the epitome of design. And in that I still was questioning, well, what is this thing of design? And so I've continued to evolve the thinking and my thoughts around that. And the inside joke was that I was a I didn't become a designer until I won an award in design or I didn't become a designer until I started getting paid to teach other people design. And so what I want to talk through are just a couple of ways how I'm starting to position design within my practice. Hopefully um you can find it reflective in your practice as well. and with the question what do we mean by design and so oftent times I found that design sits in these two different spaces one there's the form making of design there's the aesthetics there's the rationality in terms of how are we creating compositions services and things that are enabling our life then on the other end there's the meaning making there's the things that aren't necessar necessarily material, but it's how we start to rationalize like what is the world that we're sitting in. Because one of the things I hold to be true about design is that design is a practice that reflects society, but then also is a practice that instigates society, that tries to find ways to be able to reshape society. So imagine now, you don't have to imagine it. living in it, whether it's AI, climate, different people's regimes, like there's all these things that we're sitting within. So then what is design doing in a space that is full of so much change and so much uncertainty and that's where the meaning making of design happens. And so what I realized is that my practice, right, doesn't necessarily sit on polar opposites. And I actually try to pull both of those ends together and try to leverage the form making as like the honey to lure you in. And then once you're close enough, got you Then then we're in the existential meaning makingaking. Sorry if you had to sign that. [laughter] Then we're in the existential the meaning making that's underneath the aesthetic and the form. And what I started to see and how I start to think about design now is that design is very simple in terms of its pursuit and its pursuit of creating conditions spaces for people to thrive. And that's how I think about design. But the simplicity of the pursuit does not take away from the existential nature of the consequences of this of the pursuit. And so in that I try to hold both of those truths at once. That design in how it shows up and what its intentions are are one thing, but then the consequences of the work is a whole other thing. And how do you start to rationalize that and how do you bring those two things together? And so the work that my team and I do because this is done in concert with many brilliant people. It's not just not just me is trying to find how do we start to stretch the boundaries of what design can be considered as so that then the meaning making is just as important as the form making. And so in that one of the things that I've been sitting with was this idea of moving away from design is to answer the question but more sitting with design as and that's using design as a function to do a thing [snorts] and less being worried about the thing itself. And what I started to see was that that provided me more opportunity and more space to be able to have design sit [snorts] in places that design usually is pretty awkward in or it's adjacent in or talk about topics in a much more expansive way. And so I start to think through the as lens. And what I want to share with you are like here's a couple of ways how I position my practice in terms of design as. And so one of the first things is I run a branding studio and branding is is underserving what we do. It's a design studio called Room for Magic. And what we're really great at is okay, how do we take an idea that has some sort of social purpose to it and be able to create the best form that will allow for that idea to infect others. And it's really me bringing my branding background um from working with brands into a space that we can start to push social change. So then you start to think about branding as one of the things that we offer. And to be honest, it's just the easiest way for us to take the complex work that we're doing and tell the client, yes, we can create the logo. The logo is like the least of our worries, but how do we get underneath the hood? And so in that, the way how we frame up our work is we're a design studio of purpose, practice, and possibilities. Purpose meaning we care about the work that we do. We care about the people that we're doing the work for, and that sits in the forefront. But then the practice is we're always iterating and always trying to improve and we always want to create spaces for curiosity and vulnerability within the work itself. And so oftent times we tell clients like the product that you are buying isn't just the output, it's the process that you're buying that's getting us to this output. And then possibilities, who doesn't love possibilities? possibilities really starts to speak to the people and the possibilities that sit within all of us that could be tapped or untapped. But then also how do we start to think about new and expansive ways of approaching specific problems or opportunities? And so some of the projects that we work on includes doing a rebrand for a institution called the World Peace Foundation out of TUS. And when they approached us, they're like, "Hey, we do research about nonviolent futures." And we're like, "Wow, we really need some nonviolent future work being done." And so, how do you start to elevate and take a narrative that usually sits within research that's very dense and start to make it into something that's much more approachable. So what you're seeing is the branding as an output, but the work was really in the thought partnership to be able to help them to start to think more culturally aligned and also communication first. Um, another project is with Google. Google has an internal think tank called Google Experience Institute. when they approached us, it was some ideas that were exciting to them, but also exciting to us because a lot of our work has to do with belonging. And they were trying to think through workplace experience. And so we worked with them to be able to ideulate what does it mean to think about belonging through the lens of the workplace and then how can we start to actually personify that and give that life. And so what you're seeing are a couple of swipes of like how we were able to add some human elements to this idea of a tech company that's thinking about the workplace. And then this is I would say one of the cooler examples. It's not cute. It's not sexy. It's me taking a picture on our on the iPhone. And we have been doing a lot of really interesting projects in terms of storytelling around historical narratives. And so how that starts to show up is memorials um and exhibitions. And so this is on one of the site visits that we had on the border of Pennsylvania and Delaware. And what this signifies is if somebody's captive body is property of somebody else or themselves. And so the project is for a memorial for the Underground Railroad on the border of Pennsylvania and Delaware. And so we're coming in as the lead team that's leading the community engagement to help understand what is this thing that we're building, who are we building it for, how are we honoring their voices, how are we bringing this to a new audience, and then how does that narrative start to evolve? And so not all the work ends up looking beautiful and splashy like the previous ones. A lot of the work really starts here and it starts with being able to go to a site and starts with sitting in very very uncomfortable conversations because a lot of times what happens is that these communities a may not even define themselves as a community. How do you define community? And then you have people who have generations of disinvestment and trauma and beef with each other like all these things that we step in and we have to be the ones to say okay well we are trying to earn your trust to navigate and to be the stewards of your story. And so one of the flips that that um a close collaborator brought to us because we always think about community engagement through the lens of inviting the community to the table. Like what does it mean to invite the community to the table so that they can tell their story? And the approach that we've been taking and like pushing upon clients is what does it mean to be a worthy worthy enough guest for community to invite you to their table? And a oftent times that means really leveling the playing field that we're not coming in as experts, we're coming in as guests. So what time does dinner start? Wait, is this a shoes off household? Like all these things we have to take into consideration and then that's what helps us actually move through these projects. But like I said, none of it is easy. All of it is very tense because we have very delicate stories that we're working through. So the next case study I'd love to share with you is deem journal. Um we hold it dear to our hearts and thinking about publishing as counterarchchiving. And so especially when it comes to deem the work of deem is in how do we start to think beyond the form making of design and the stories that design is telling about us and telling about our relationship to each other. And so one of the main mechanisms that we use to be able to do that is social practice, socially engaged art as a means to say well art in itself and the way how art is usually presented. Art doesn't necessarily have to carry the burden of societal ills uh which design usually sits within there. But what happens when you start to look at participatory art as a main to reframe art? Well, how can we reflect that mirror back on design? And what does it require for design to do when we think about design as a means to be something that's participatory and that's meant to yield something greater than just the form itself. And so our main thesis is designing for dignity. And that starts to show up in issue one with Adrien Marie Brown where we start to really unpack what this notion is of for designing for dignity. Um and then issue two with Lauren Hollyy which is really focused on pedagogy and pedagogy for a new world. How are people participating in knowledge exchange both in and outside of academic institutions and what can we learn from that? Issue three um being envisioning equity. What happens when you start to think about equity as a design challenge and not just thinking about the output of the form but the labor that goes into it and who gets the spoils of the labor and how can you actually bring that conversation into design. Um issue four with the astrogates sensing placemaking both from the formal and informal um practice to not not [snorts] necessarily think about external people swooping in to then create a sweet greens or Whole Foods or whatever, but who are the people who are already there and how are they finding locality amongst themselves and how are they creating value in that and how do we hold that? How do we learn from that and what can we learn from both ends of the practice? And then our latest issue, issue five with Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson um about climate and climate responsiveness. And one of the the things that is amazing about the work that we do and definitely would give a shout out to Isabelle Flower who's right there. Isabelle, put your hand up. So Alice and Isabelle have done the really heavy conceptual lifting to be able to create a publication that is both timely and timeless at the same time. And so timely in terms of the topics and the themes that are being discussed are meant to live out there and it be in response to the zeitgeist and what's happening currently. But you can pick up any issue at any point and it doesn't feel dated and it doesn't feel like you're looking at something that's from a couple years ago because the topics that we're trying to be able to bring some light to are evergreen things um that have been plaguing our society for a really long time. And so the last thing I would love to share with you is something new, something new for for me and it is me in terms of my art practice and thinking about art in terms of systems. And when I think about systems, I think about design and it all comes back together. And so last year I was approached um by Mia Ammani and the intelligent mischief crew Aisha and Terry and they were like hey we're having this exhibition that is focused on the future of repair and what does it mean to um create a new world and visualize and bring people into that world and they asked me to participate in it and I told them initially I was like ah I don't know. I'm I'm kind of busy. And they're like, art. And I was like, I don't know. And the conversation really stuck with me because what was proposed to me was like whether or not you consider yourself an artist and your work takes artistic form. What we're asking for you is to be able to do research and then to be able to manifest that research into a form that is of your choosing. And that was interesting because then that was a break from my usual design work that is in service of a specific client or community. This was in service of my inquiries. And it was hard. It was really hard. And one of the best insults I love a good insult by the way, but one of the best insults that uh Mia gave me was she was like, "Wow, you're like a golden retriever with references and ideas." Cuz I was like, "Oh, how about this and then this and then this and then this." Um, but fortunately I was able to land the plane and where I ended up landing was creating a sculptural piece that acted as a stand-in representation for systems. And so this piece um is called in the presence of resonance. And what I was playing around with was this notion of if we're thinking about the future and we're thinking about repairs, I started thinking about well our current systems now that are under attack and how those systems are showing up for us and showing up for communities and just how fragile and instable those actual systems are. And so in that there's a quote from reggae dub sound culture that says the only good system is a sound system. So I took that as a challenge to say okay well what if I made a good system. What if I made a sound system and what if the sound system wasn't something that was meant to necessarily broadcast sound but was supposed to broadcast an emotion, a feeling. And so the form that you're seeing takes a lot of references from like a leaning post. And the reason why I say it takes a lot of references from a leaning post is that the piece itself is fully participatory and fully activated when the human body is leaning on it. Don't worry, Salom. I did not include the photo of you leaning. [laughter] I know you're looking at you're like, "Wait, is he gonna show that?" I'm not gonna show that photo. It's a great photo. Um, but so the act of leaning is standing in as a representation of the systems that we all lean on for support. Leaning being a liinal practice between sitting and standing. But what it requires is trust. And what the systems that we all live within require is trust. The systems don't exist if the people do not believe in it. And so what the piece requires though is and what the piece invites is there's multiple cutouts that [snorts] are meant to hold the human body. Like you see me there um you see the other person who's also laying on it. And so really what it becomes is this meditation that the the piece itself is not fully activated until other people participate in it and the communal act of being able to participate in it. And so what can't be shown here is that then there's also an audio component to it because remember it was a sound system. And so the sound system itself is emulating um very faintly the song follow me house song a song of joy a song of that there's going to be a prosperous future. And what I ended up doing to that song was turning it into an hour-ong ambient version where we stripped away the drums, the baseline, and it's just very faintly and ghostly like inviting you towards this future that if you follow me. But it never ends up reaching its full crescendo of the song that you know as a representation that the future that you are projecting your hope in is there. But there's also the now and there's also the now and the and the community and the people that you're in communion with that you can also find salvation and find the fortitude that we need to get to that future. And then the last hidden piece is that there is haptic motors that's in the piece that vibrates the piece to the baseline of the song. So when you're leaning on it, you're also feeling that. Um I learned this morning that the rookie mistake that I made was to create such a big piece and now I have to store it. and yesterday was spent um at a storage unit that quickly went from $25 to $200 to be able to store the piece. So if anybody wants this piece exhibited in their home, in their place of residence [laughter] and so in that I mean I showed you three different ways how my work takes form but at the end of it going back to what I was saying originally it's always playing between the tension of the form and the meaning making and how can we use form to be able to reinforce the meaning making and How can the meaning making help to guide the form? And that is it for me. And if you want to reach out to me, [applause] Should I go back to the Okay, go back to this. And now I'm going to have an exciting conversation and I have to reveal something. So in this conversation and even what when Alexandra and I were like dreaming like what would this be? I was like okay I can talk about my work. My work is cool but I was like man I would love to be in conversation with somebody who's just like amazing. And so I drafted up a list of people who are amazing. And at the top of the list, Alexandra was like, "Wow, Salom is so amazing." I was like, "I know. I love her." So then reached out, made it happen. So from that moment to this moment, there's been a consistent thing that happens where I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Hey, you're doing the talk tomorrow." Yeah. Yeah. I'm doing the talk tomorrow. And then everybody stops and they look at me and they say, "I love Salom. I love salom. And I'm like, who doesn't love salom? So, can we have salom, PLEASE? [laughter] [applause] >> The people love you. >> Oh my god. Well, hello everyone. [laughter] Um, that was great. That was great. I learned a lot about you. So, I ended up taking a lot of notes and I um might flip some of my questions around. I hope that's okay. >> Do you remember the first time we met? >> Was it online? >> No. >> Oh, tell me. >> I'm going to tell you. >> Okay. >> We're breaking the fourth wall right now cuz this is off off script. Um so, Som is featured in issue three of Dee. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so in that the wonders and the magic that Alice and Isabelle usually conjures up doesn't always include me. So what that means is that there's people who are featured in deem that I haven't met personally. Right. And then I see them. And so I was at the opening at the new museum. >> Yes. >> But I didn't come and say what's up. >> Yeah. >> I didn't I saw her and I said, "Wow, what [laughter] is that?" And then I was like, "Wow, oh my god." And then I didn't come and say what's up because you were standing there and you looked like you were it was intimidating. And then I um then at the Aers Black Artist Retreat, you were sitting there. Your guard was down and I came up to you and I said, "Hey, how's it going? My name is New Dem." And I saw you and you're like, "Why didn't you say hi?" >> And I also told you last night how I went out. Oh, yes. Oh, okay. Was it that? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, I sometimes I I don't know. Sometimes I I like to talk. Sometimes I just don't have it in me. And so then I would just like watch people and then I just dis I just disappear. But your response to me and I don't know if this was true. You may have been lying to me. You said, "Hey, I quoted you recently." >> Yeah, I did quote you. That was real. I still quote you. >> What was the quote? It was about um it was in a lecture you gave around process being more impactful than output and it was the way you had told a story and landed with that quote that I felt was so impactful. So it's a it's a it's something I bring up in many lectures and I taught at um in the MFA program at Parsons in design and technology. So a sister program to yours for many years and that was yeah you were a constant um reference. So, it's so funny that you wouldn't say hello because I if I saw you, I probably wouldn't have said hello either. I would been too nervous, too. But here, we're friends. We're friends now. >> We made it to the other side. Um, so, you know, I in hearing your um presentation, I was thinking about this recurring tension between design as form or design as a kind of, you know, process of meaning making or or a kind of almost political orientation come up. And it reminded me of a another text I reference frequently which is Amir Braa's technology and ethos one page. Yes, I felt the snap there. Thank you. Written in 1969 and um you know it's meant to be a text that is critiquing um the speed in which technology is developing but I think is actually undergirling that is a really strong analysis of design as as not neutral. And he says um in that text that machines are an extension of their maker. He has a a great analysis of um the typewriter as a kind of case study. And he says, "How corny is a typewriter that you know we can only tell stories or kind of um express uh meaning in words through the our fingertips?" Like what if I wanted to fully express in in other bodily ways like what if I wanted to dance a story or like elbow a story, you know, like why are we stuck with the the typewriter? And then he says um he ends by saying see everything fresh and without form then make forms that will express us truthfully and totally and by this certainly will free us eventually. And I see you and Amir Braa moving through this tension similarly. your practice is one of world building and world opening and Marie Broa wants us to move um you know there's the ultimate goal of design moving us towards freedom and I think with you there's this goal of design moving us towards dignity um so I just yeah I wanted to say that those are my messy notes from from hearing you speak and then you know we're here on the occasion of the national design awards and specifically your recognition as an emerging designer and uh you know at new inc the cultural incubator program I run at the museum emerging is a a very tricky complicated word and for us you know we're not really interested or um invested in career markers but we are invested in a kind of multidirectional pure learning that can happen and there are people in the program that are right out of college but that there are also people that have lived full seasoned professional lives and are coming back to be immersed in in something energetic right and so I think about emerging as energy um as a site of attention um as like the site of a new idea or community of practice. And if you'll entertain me, I wonder, you know, taking this definition, what might your award re reveal about this multi-pronged, you know, field of design? >> Yeah, I think um that's a messy question you're asking and I'm going to give you a a messy answer. Yeah. So, initially when I received the nomination, um I obviously I was so honored, but then I was looking at I was like, huh, emerging, okay, where where does this where does this put me in this spectrum of because there is a level I wouldn't say it's hierarchy, but there is a level of like being at the beginning of a practice versus the middle of the practice versus whatever. And what excited me about this award specifically and me seeing it was that it's kind of the only place my practice would fit >> because of the expansiveness of it. And one of the judges said to me at the um at the awards and like I said I'm going to be honest with everyone. They said to me, they're like, they're like, do you know you you won the hardest award? And I was like, why? And they're like, because you weren't just competing against people who do what you do. Like, it's this really wide breath. And so ultimately the way how I receive it is yeah there's me that won the award but I think it's more of the ethos and the thought of not just me but people who also sit in a similar place and a similar desire and especially when you start to think about deem and the work that we do at deem the reason why deem is able to bring so much joy and excitement in people is that it allows for people to see themselves in a practice that they haven't been [snorts] able to see themselves fully. And so I think what's exciting and what's awesome to me is like, yeah, there's me, the person who's receiving this, but what does that mean in terms of pushing and redefining and elbowing within design to be able to create space for others? >> I'm curious, let's dig into that kind of, you know, multi-disiplinary hybridity nature of your work. You know, I was reading um recently that there's an increasing trend of not only makers but also consumers um like having slippage between um disciplines and domains, right? Like how people even collect um collect things that they're fans of, right? It's they collect art in the same way that they're maybe collecting furniture in the same way that they're collecting um I don't know, collectibles, you know, like little trinkets and things. like it's all becoming one big soup for for the consumer too. And I'm curious for you as someone who is multi-disiplinary like what is um that slippage afford you that maybe staying in one discipline wouldn't? >> So I um a couple years ago I gave a keynote at a conference in Paris and it was an architecture conference. No, was it? No, it was just a design conference. But I was standing in the back and I was looking at where we were. It was in this like courtyard and I saw this like this like sunbathing platform. All I can describe it as a sunbathing platform and my mind immediately was like wow if I had that platform. Wow. I would be sunbathing it up. And and so some guy comes up to me and he's like is this Parisian guy. I don't want to offend any Persian people, but he's like, "Hey, you you like the you like the Yeah, yeah, sunbathing." Um, and he was like, "Oh, yeah. This is mine." And he's like showing it off. And I'm like, "Awesome." Like, "Yeah, that's that's really cool." And he's like, "Are you an architect?" And he stopped himself. He looked at me. He goes, "You're not an architect." And I was just like, "No, I'm not." And so then, like, I said bye to him. And then they invited me up. And I started by saying like, "Awesome. That dude right there immediately looked at me and projected that I am not an architect." And I was like, "And not only was he offensive, but he was also right." Because I was like, I'm not an architect. But I know that if I was an architect, I would not be standing here right now delivering this message to you. because that one linear path isn't a path that often affords the freedom to be able to think outside and beyond the practice. And so I think the being able to sit within multitudes has its shortcomings in terms of like not being able to succinctly explain to my aunt who just came from Liberia what I do. like there's there's like those things but on the other end it also provides a level of translation which comes a responsibility to be able to translate between many different worlds to then try to instigate something new and so in that I think what excites me the most is it allows for me to get back to my younger self who didn't know the rules and who was just creating because I wanted to create and I try to stay within >> that. >> Yeah. I I see that work of translation so clearly in your work and then I think I think the place that is most interesting and probably the most difficult is in your commercial projects and I'm curious you know as you navigate again this tension of um like process versus output. How do you sell a client that it's worth kind of sitting in the windy process a bit longer? you know um I believe the only way around it is through it and there was a lot so when starting Room for Magic initially the goal was to be like small studio we do very thoughtful work for very thoughtful client which is still the goal and then capitalism came and capitalism was like nah the world doesn't work that way and we're like we're going to show you capitalism and capitalism was And so in that, what I realized was that my day-to-day job, to be a 100% honest with y'all, isn't sitting in a designer seat. It isn't sitting in a strategist seat. It is sitting in a sales seat. I am a salesman. I that's what I do. And oftent times what that means to me is not sales from just a monetary standpoint, but in terms of how am I creating space for us to believe in something. And the world that we're trying to create that sits beyond where we're at now isn't going to happen unless somebody is going to sell it. It has to be sold. And so then my job is to say, "Oh, hey copywriter, write the most poetic way for us to be able to talk and explain this. Okay, now cool. We got that and this is going to make the client or make the community fall in love with this because it reflects them and it reflects beyond them. Then okay, visual designer. Now let's try to close the gap between what we're saying and what we're asking people to envision. How do we close that gap and get it as close as possible so that people don't have to make grand leaps? All of that is sales. >> My team may not be pumped about it when I call them a sales pro. I was like, "Oh yeah, that's sales." Like, cuz everybody wants to stay away from it. But I think ultimately the clients that we work with and the intent that we go into it with is very nuanced and requires like a lot of us leaning in. And so one example I'll give you, um, I don't know when this is going to be aired, but we could probably we could we can cut this out. My favorite is when you listen to a podcast and they're like, "We can cut this out." And you realize that they never cut it out, >> right? [laughter] But but we recently got a pitch for a center in Philadelphia that does um research around smell and taste. And they were like, "We want to have a better message to get more donors." And then they were like, "And now we need your team to fly in to Philadelphia to present to us for 30 minutes." And we're like, "Wow." Okay. So, I told my team, I was like, "Okay, well, if we're gonna go, if I'm gonna go, mind you, I was also sick, but I was like, if I'm gonna go, we're going to win this." I was like, "There's no reason." And I was like, "I would rather us lose this because we went too deep the wrong direction versus us losing it because we because we played it safe." And what that meant was their vision was cool and it was cute and we said no like here's a bigger grander vision of a better world and here's how you sit within that. And so part of that is the theater. It is the sales for us to be able to communicate that to commercial clients for them to buy into it. That then gives us the space to do the work that we need to do >> if they have the budget. >> If Yeah. [laughter] get that asterisk in there. Um, you know, I've heard in past lectures you come up with really great um like analoges for how you understand your work as a designer. You know, you've talked about um being kind of and this is like in in reference to trying to explain your work to your family, which I'm like I can appreciate. Um but you know, you've said things like I I am a salesman. I'm a used car salesman. I'm a plumber. And I'm curious, you know, having moved into this next chapter of your work, like how you understand what you do, if there is an analog you're holding on to now, and I'm and you know, I'm thinking about Sasha Constanza Chuck, who um has always argued that universalist design has been a is is a myth. And um uh you know, she understands design is a political act that can either reinforce or dismantle power structures. And in the collective design justice um they have a book that has 10 design justice principles. Um the seventh one is it reminded me of you in preparation for this conversation. We see the role of the designer as a facilitator rather than an expert. And I I see that's like how you sit on your project teams. There's there's more we than there is I and yeah. So what is are you are do you see yourself as a facil facilitator or something else? I see myself purely as as a facilitator. And one of the novel thoughts that I had in grad school when I learned about design and design thinking, every every week we would have some amazing speaker come to talk to us and no whatever I'll be honest with y'all. So every week it would be somebody from IDO IDO or frog, right? Every week and we would be like wow one day. And then the professors would be like, "You will never work at IDEO and Frog cuz you're not worthy." And we're like, "Okay." And what I started to see, and I had just this like thought, and I was just like, "Huh, the work that y'all do is driven by empathy. It's driven by doing research to get really, really deep and find out what are the pain points, what are the issues that these people are sitting with. What would happen if y'all just got out the way? >> I was just like I was like, what would happen if the design process wasn't meant to derive the solution or the output, but to create the conditions for the people who were the closest to the issue to derive the solution or the output? Yeah, >> the question didn't go over well with the person who was coming after a full days of work to give a lecture about about design. But really that has been something that has stuck with me. It's like what does it look like for designers to operate as facilitators and as people who are creating the conditions as opposed to being the people who are creating the output. And that empathy and that moment of the deeper understanding is still important and designers are coming in with process and toolkits and ways to be able to think and reframe. But what happens when you orient it towards not being the filter but actually being the enabler? >> Yeah. Um I want to I want to take a step back maybe because you know like the new lore runs deep, right? They're like chapters of things that happened before we got to the projects in this presentation, right? And so I I w to um think back to like maybe new making early work. Where did you first find um a sense of embrace in your practice? Was there a community that felt like home for sharing your work and really put some gas in the tank for you? Yeah. So, I have um I've always been blessed to have amazing best friends who are just way more capable than I am. And and in that, I remember my best friend East who is a designer. He works for Apple. He's done stuff for Audi, but at that time he was a graffiti artist and he had a basement. And this basement blew my mind because his mom just let him have full domain over the basement and do whatever he wanted to do. So he was practicing his pieces there. He was painting. He was doing all these things. And at that time I was probably like 17 years old. And no, I was probably I think I was like maybe 20 at that at that point. And it was like a Friday night. And where we grew up Friday nights you went out. you were to be out and about. And I just remember East was like, "No, I'm not going out. I'm gonna stay at the crib to work on stuff." And I was like, "Work on stuff? What do you mean work on stuff?" Like, "What?" And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, we're just going to like work on stuff." So, I had my collection of magazines. I brought it over and then we would just work on stuff. We would work on shirts. We work on all these crazy things. And that muscle has always stuck with me, even to the point where if East or my other best friend Stan are coming to town, we're gonna go to my studio and work on stuff because that's just what what we do. And so there was a moment where East and I used to throw parties and then we met Stan. We were throwing parties with them. So really our like foundation came from throwing parties. And one of the first parties that Issa and I threw was called Hugosa, right? Which means juicy in Spanish. And I had this brilliant idea and I said, "Okay, like and back then I didn't know it was creative directing. I just had ideas." >> Yeah. >> And other people were better at executing them than I was. So East and I would work together. And I was like, "We're going to do this provocative shoot where there's going to be this sensual woman's lips biting into a fruit." And he's like, "Okay." And I was like, "And then you're going to shoot it and then it's going to be all these." So then my parents had divorced at that time and [snorts] I called my dad up and I said, "Hey, are you home?" He's like, "Yeah." I was like, "Okay, I I need a place to like shoot this thing." And he's like, "Okay, cool." So Ace and I rolled there. Um, a couple of female friends that we had at the time came. Boom. and we're doing the shoot and my dad's like looking and then he like he like comes and gets me like pulls me into the room and he's like what are you doing in my house? What are you doing? He's like are you are you are what is this? >> Yeah. >> So he was insinuating like are you shooting pornography in my house? And that wasn't what we were doing. And I was like no dad like no no no no. and he's like, it made him uncomfortable. So, he like went into his room and he closed the door and he was very upset at me for a while. So, then fast forward um issue one of Deem and I remember I like went to his house and I was like, "Look, Dad, look at this." And he's like, "Wow, wow. What is how how did you do this?" And I was like, "You remember that time I was shooting porns at your house?" I was like, "That [laughter] no. Well, okay. So, my house growing up was East House. There was like I I love that there was like a kind of safe place for experimentation and play. I was like I was an avid collector of like old technology and like particularly handy cams >> and so I was running like a little AV club in our in our garage and we would just like make films. >> Do you still have any of them? >> Oh, so many on VHS tape. Like I'm waiting for the right moment to to do a screening. >> [snorts] >> Somebody get her a grant to archive to activate the archive. >> I was running like a a daily TV show in high school and I would like run into the principal's room with my VHS tape that I had just edited like hot off the press. But yeah, I mean those spaces are so important. And it wasn't until I got to college that someone was like, "Oh, yeah. All that stuff you're doing is is, you know, film making, but also like because of the experimentation, like you're a creative technologist, you know, and that set me off on a whole other track." Um, but yeah, you need those spaces early on. >> And so then I guess because people they want to hear from you as well. I have a question for you. So then I guess how does that carry through to your work now? Because I you got a promotion. Yeah, I have a I have a yeah, a different role at the museum. I'm director of strategy and innovation, which are big words. I'm like, what you could talk about? [laughter] >> What does that mean? >> Um, well, it means that I'm still overseeing New Inc., and it means that I'm um helping the museum think about um audience development, storytelling, um community partnerships, a bunch of things, you know. What do you what's the scariest part about it and what's the most alluring part? >> Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've heard you talk about this, but this word strategy is um can mean so many things. I mean, you talked about it even in your presentation, but key to it is like I think strategy stems from diagnosis, right? And so, I I think that is the scariest part is having to like assess and diagnose um our gaps, right? to to have that kind of internal, you know, honest conversation about what should should change and then innovation is only innovation if it's implemented, right? So, like then having to to make the changes. >> Um, >> and then the most alluring thing is I get to bring in my people, right? Like for anyone who takes on a role like this, you don't come come in alone. You bring all your people with with you. So, I'm excited to Yeah. to play with some people in this room, too. Awesome. Cool. Um, if anybody if you're ever feeling the weight of strategy and you're like, all strategy is is what do we say no to? >> Oh, I love Yes. >> What do we say no to? >> Okay. So, one of my questions for you was what do you say no to? Actually, it's like how do you understand refusal in your practice? >> I have, [snorts] how do I say this? I'm a hater. So, I'm just my brain just processes things. And the way how I say that is like [sighs] I'm a 1099 hater. Like I mean I'm a hater for hire. And so >> hire [laughter] >> like if somebody needs me to come and hate on something. But what that really means is that there are things that I love and that I'm passionate about that the things that do not sit within that. I just do not waste my time with it. Before I would tell you if I don't like something now I just say, "Uh, that's not for me. Y'all go do that. That's great." My wife knows. She'll be like, "Come on, babe. Like you're just gonna be a hater." I was like, "Yeah." And so in that though, I have to have a high level of discernment in terms of the things that I do take on just because I'm stretched in so many different ways. But the things that I often love to do that ends up bubbling up is to be able to be in discourse and to think through my work and other people's work in an open forum. And then other things that feel more extractive I usually try to to move away from. But I'm also a people pleaser. >> So So I'm a people pleasing hater. And so which means that sometimes I can like serve up an insult or shade in the most delicate way that you'll walk away and be like, "Wow, that was great." And in my mind I'm like, [laughter] I'm like I I think I've seen it happen in real time. So I'm like, "Yeah, [laughter] >> it's impressive." >> I And I know how. So I was at a dinner recently and my brother-in-law, who's super awesome. I I love hanging out with him. And another friend of mine were standing there and I didn't know they knew each other. I didn't know they I didn't know they knew each other. And so then my brother-in-law goes, "You ever ask me a question?" And then he pauses and everybody's like, "Yeah." And then he asks you a question back. That's usually me sussing out. Is this thing you're talking about, did you really sit with this? And are you really holding on to this with with enough depth? And that's usually how I end up discerning if something is worthy. not worthy, but if something is of value is, do you hold this of value enough to be able for us to like talk about this deeply? >> Yeah, I appreciate that. I think now we have some time for questions from the audience. Yeah. >> Hi, how are you? Um, so this is from you. Um, and I'll I'll give you some background. Um I am the project lead in rebuilding a museum in Grenada. And um my question for you is um how do you build the confidence in the community for them to have authority in giving their opinion on how they want to be reflected in the actual historical institution. I think I'm coming into a space where I am of I am Grenadian. of the diaspora, but I'm coming in from the United States with a I guess a more modernized perspective. Um, and I think that might come across as intimidating to the community where they say like, well, if this is her idea, this is what we'll go with. >> Um, where I really want them to feel like they have when they walk into the space or when they stand in front of the building, they see themselves and they see themselves throughout generations. So, how do you build that confidence in the community to actually give there? Yeah, I I often in in thinking about facilitation and being able to help people and bring people a lot of it is that there needs to be some structure. The structure is porous, but there needs to be cuz there if you're saying that you're coming in and you're like here's what I want to do from this way of thinking, but you need to meet me halfway. then it sounds like there's opportunities for you to create prompts and spaces that enable that. But oftentimes what happens is that the way how communities convene and share perspectives isn't always the way how a facilitator who's running a workshop is doing that. So then you have to start to understand like I was saying like being a worthy enough guest like do people talk about topics like this with sticky notes or is it something that happens over dinner? Is it something that like maybe this person is going to be the most boisterous about it but oh that person who's not talking actually knows so much about it. So part of it is is really listening and trying to figure out, okay, how can you be in community with community and opening up that the space for that? Uh thank you. Uh new you are large and you contain prismatic multitudes. And so in that uh I wonder about how you would like to be archived in a hundred years. >> Um what comes into conversation as we think about perhaps AI as um a keeper of archives in the future or a dismantler of the value systems that we have today. >> Yeah, that was a good one. Wow. How would I want to be archived? Hm. As generous as generous in the sense that the work and the topics and the themes don't just sit with me that I'm an entry point that splinters out to many different people and many other areas. So in terms of the way my brain works is is references and I tell my team and my friends all the time you're only as good as your as your references like can you connect those dots and so my archive would be in connection to Salom's archive like like all these things will splinter out and shoot out so that then there's a much more fuller archive and body to be able to engage with and I can be the entry point to that. You know, I think new will be archived as someone who remembers, who is remembering in real time, and that's so special. I think the work that you and Isabelle and Alice do. You're holding a a like a history that not everyone is looking at, and I'm so I feel so honored to be in Deem because I know what that can mean for someone way way way down the line, you know. So, yes, an archive of of an archavist, you know. There would definitely be music and um memes in my in my archive. >> Hi, how are you doing? Really love the talk. I'm interested in what you're talking about um regarding conditions. You brought up conditions a couple times and I'm wondering if you mean physical conditions that you're designing around sort of contextual conditions, conversational conditions. Um how do you bring that into your practice? And the second part are what are some examples of su successful conditions that you reference in your work? >> Um yeah conditions [snorts] are all of those things. Not the best answer to be like it runs the gamut but when I start to think about conditions what it really is about is permission. And not to say we're granting permission, but for people to feel permitted to be able to step into a space, right? And so part of that in terms of facilitating and the work of facilitating usually starts off with my team, starts off with me. And the example I will give you is I like to work in spaces where people feel comfortable to fail in front of each other. People feel like they have the permission to fail. And so the way how I do that is if I up, I will be like, "Hey everyone, I was wrong. Isabelle was right about this. I was wrong. This thing was, you know what? I overestimated." Yep. The illusion of grandeur got to my head, y'all. And in that, that is a demonstration to be like, okay, cool. If new is here failing, I'm not going to sweep it under the rug or blame somebody else. I look for those opportunities to communicate moments that I fail in order to create conditions for other people to feel comfortable to be able to fail as well. >> Hi there. So, I have more of a comment instead of a question about um the idea of being messy. You know, um I'm a public school teacher. I've been for many years. And um sorry, I'm very tipsy. And within my life experience, I've been working um with language deprivation um in a mainstream public school setting. So now as a teacher um I'm working with kids who didn't who had things who are getting the experience that I didn't get. So I'm designing for deaf students an experience that I didn't um have as a child growing up. And so looking listening to your stories, I'm thinking about myself and my experience um with design and my teachers and their approach to students learning and education and the gaps and you know how my life has been molded and shaped in the specific way of how I've been taught. And so now as a teacher, I'm thinking about students and I'm thinking about my experience when I look at them within this system and and in this environment that I'm designing for them. So last year I recommended um I was nominated for teacher of the year award and well thank you. Um I I didn't actually get nominated for how I was designed. I was nominated for the systems that were happening because of my work because on the side I'm also a um I'm also a basketball coach. Oh, a magician. I'm sorry. I'm not I'm a basketball coach. That was an interpreter saying I'm a magician on the side. Yes. Yes. So, [laughter] so I have a I've been doing a show for 45 years and it's a story about my life experience and I designed that show, but you have to understand it's my life experience that actually designed the show for me instead of me designing it. So, all of your comments are really giving me a chance to reflect on my story. You know, we all have our stories thinking about how design has impacted who we've become and I really appreciate your comments. >> Awesome. Thank you. Hi, new hiom. Um, my name is Whitney Magcguire. Um, I have just um I I want to show my gratitude for the permission that you've actually given me to name what I do and and who I am. and and so I've struggled with that throughout uh my career sort of existing you know in the in between and also being a translator of the of what I'm in between. So I do appreciate that. Um a question that I have is you know the salesman part of of your um talk really stood out to me because I think that that is something that I've also avoided sort of like as a like knee-jerk reaction to capitalism. But um I see what you mean and when I am um sort of going in for like the pitch with the client. Um usually my work centers around futuring which is collectively envisioning what we want to see in the future and that projected outcome and sort of you know the process of of building that. But you said that you you go in with this um sort of vision already to create the space, right? To create. How does that projection of the vision for the client um serve as a a way to create space versus sort of a limiting aspect of of what you are eventually creating? Yeah, that's a so I mean I think that is one of those delicate things where you're like okay I want to paint a picture of a world that you can step into but you do not have to inherit this world as it is because especially part of the way how we approach it and what I believe is that the answers don't lie with us the answer lies with the client the answer lies with community. The issue is that there's too many answers for them, right? And so when we're talking about what is strategy, strategy is just what we say no to because we're haters and we're so in love with what we say we're going to do. Anything else that doesn't fulfill our intentions falls out of that. And so a lot of the work that we do, at least initially, it's to be like, hey, here's where we can take it, right? But we're going to take a step back because now we need you in the driver's seat and we need to listen to you to parse out that if we're going to take it there that you feel like you're part of that because not only like we're doing a rebrand for a 100-year-old architecture firm out of Mexico City and one of and we're almost done and the work is amazing. It looks beautiful. But where I started to realize that there's a critical breakdown is I was like, "Oh, we need to onboard 200 people to this brand, right? What does that mean? What does that look like? Can we pull back on some of the other things?" Because I really think we need to spend time here because the success of the work isn't in us handing off the work. It's in the actual adoption and the deployment of the work. and how can we be stewards to that? And that's the moment where it's like okay well we need to shift from the form making to the meaning making so that this makes sense to the people who need to steward this forward. >> So we have time for two more you and then we'll one more. >> Awesome. Awesome. This is amazing. Thank you. >> He's a plant. [laughter] >> So I had have one question. You know, we all in this industry kind of stand on other people's shoulders and we've learned process from other people. When was that moment you found your own voice, found the confidence to have your own voice and become a go in this industry and speak in this totally different language? Because I've never heard anybody present the work the way you do, you know, it's totally different. When did you find that voice? Man, I don't I mean the So I am Alexander and I were talking about the reward for hard work is more hard work. And so in part of that I am representing Liberia for the first pan-African bianial that's happening in September. talk about things that I probably should have been like, I don't know. But I'm like, okay, well, whatever. Bring it on. And but what that has allowed for me to do was to like point my research and the things I'm current that's currently occupying my time in terms of going really deep into my heritage from the Pelle tribe. That's the tribe that I'm that I'm from. And so the tribe that I'm from, one of the coolest things that I learned about is there's these stories that are told and the stories are kind of like adjacent to like Greek mythology where you have like Homer and the Odyssey and things like that. But so this is the story of Wo and Story of Wo is how the Pelle tribe got from South Sudan to Liberia. And what's really interesting, and I've seen it before, is that there's usually a core narrator and then around the narrator there's a constellation and there's a call and response in how the story is told. But what's really cool, and I've seen like my mom do it, is that narrator can control [snorts] the feeling of the room based on the story. So there's beats in the story and then the narrator gets to choose if they extend a part versus if they contract it, right? And so in that the story itself is in relationship to the feeling of the people in the room and it's not just the story, right? And so I've inherited that. I don't know how I've inherited it. It was something that was bestowed upon me. And in that, what I often have been faced with is like, okay, there were times where I'm like, oh, you know, I need to communicate this in this specific way in order to get people to feel what I'm trying to say and that the words just aren't just like falling falling out of the sky. And so, the first opportunity I had with that was DJing. I don't I doubt anybody here has ever been to one of my DJ sets, but I I love DJing and I used to throw parties and I found a voice in stopping the music and which is like a cardinal sin to be a DJ, but I will gladly stop the music and say, "How y'all doing?" And everybody be like, "Okay, that was kind of weird." And I was like, "Oh, that was kind of cool." But so in that from from DJing and having that moment then in terms of working as a strategist and spoiler alert when you're working as a strategist you have a target on your back because you're supposed to be the smartest person in the room. So people just want to poke holes in your all the time. So then you have to come into the room ready to defend your idea. And so then you have that. So then you have like my storytelling background. you have me DJing, you have me as a strategist. And so then there was a moment where it was during COVID um where Lini, if anybody knows Lini from Old Magazine, another person that everybody loves, Lini is amazing. Um, Lini was doing a talk for Space 10, um, which was a research institution that IKEA was sponsoring and Lini was like, "Hey, I want to share this space with new and Alice from from Deem." And so we did the virtual talk and that was like my first public talk. I talk all the time, but that was like the first time like I was like in a public setting and I remember I didn't think anything of it. Like we spoke cool, answered the questions. Um and then I get an email from somebody at Parson's and they're like, "Hey, would you want to teach this class?" Right? And this class um was uh design dichotomy. And so I get on a call with um this woman and she's like, "Yeah, uh, Professor Parsons was sitting in on your talk and in your talk it really like we think you would be great for this class." And I was like, "What? What did I say?" And I went back to the talk. I was like, "Oh, when I said that design uphold systems of white supremacy and patriarchy, I was like, is that what got y'all excited?" And that that was a moment though where I was just being honest and sitting within like it was George Floyd, it was co like all these things and speaking more honestly. And so to really answer your question, the more opportunities I've gotten in terms of speaking, the more I continue to develop and continue to just learn from the practice of speaking. It's so good to see you both again, Roxan Stafford. Um, the regenerator space and investment fund I run, blueprint for the culture, the way we work with our worldbuilders or founders is grounded in spiritual virtues like detachment, discernment, generosity, many of the words you talked about today. Um, in particular with discernment, one of the things we help our worldbuilders understand is that discernment and action, part of it is taste and the cultivation of taste. So it would be lovely to hear from both of you all your thoughts on taste and in particular because unfortunately these tech oligarchs uh and other investors not from my philosophy but other investors um are taking over the word taste and using it as another way uh to decide who gets resources and who is seen as valuable. So would love to hear your thoughts on taste both of you. >> I would love Salom to speak on this first. I can I can follow up. But part of the when I told people and like I love Salom, somebody specifically said, can you ask her like how does she get a fit off because Salom always has the best fits? And I also agree with that. You know, the thing about languages, especially when it it's, you know, I'm thinking specifically about Silicon Valley, they absorb language we use so quickly and then it makes us not want to use it anymore. And I was thinking about even when I got this title, I was like, "Ew, innovation. I hate that word. Can we find another word?" Like, um, and it was actually one of my mentors who like sat me down and was like, "Don't let don't let people take that word from you. So this is what you're doing and help really help me define it. And I said, okay, okay, I kind of like the word now again. And I think we need to hold on to taste. If that is a word that you use and it means something to you, hold on to it and like just muscle your definition into that. Um, and then you know around I guess is your question around like how do I retain or I want to hear it again like how are we holding on to taste or how are we Sorry. We think about tastes being rooted in actual spiritual principles that allow us to recognize the humanity in others which is a part of that meaning making being uh associated with the physical making. Um I just want to know what's going on in your head as we think about hey taste can be a signifier of one's growth and development around discernment and detachment. Yeah. >> Because those are so key for us especially in the world we live in right now. >> Yeah. I just I mean like how I understand and cultivate taste is so grounded in who I am, my lived experiences, the people I am I'm with that it's really hard for me to take anyone's replication seriously, you know? So one, I'm like sitting in that tr truth for myself. That doesn't mean that when it is replicated and people benefit from it, it doesn't hurt. But I think I sit in that in knowing that I'm I'm gonna chameleon to something else that I'm gonna move faster than you can ever move, right? You're so busy studying and copying. I'm on to the next because it's in me, you know? I don't know. Maybe that's I'm like I feel like I'm that's borrowing from the school of new there. Myation came out a little bit. >> You you don't you don't want to go to the school of new. There's a lot of student loans attached to that. So, [laughter] so it's I mean this question is like wow >> because so my dayto-day I'm usually we have an office space in LA and I was like oh I don't need like my own office I want to sit with everybody and what that means is that everybody has to hear me yap on the phone all the time and so now there's a conference room that we have and I just go into the conference room and everybody just knows You can look at my calendar. New is going to be in the conference room from 9 till 3. And soon as I get out of the conference room, I just want to like have a moment to just talk, right? And one of the questions that I started to sit with was like the work that we do, especially when working with socially engaged clients. I'm like, what makes us like suited for this work? And what I started to think about, I was like, "Oh, there's a certain level of taste that we bring to this." And I was like, "Okay, but what is taste?" So, if you ever come to the studio, there's this there's a like a pillar that we have that just has these post-it notes on it with words. And I just ask everybody, "What is taste? What do you think taste is?" And some of the things that started to stand out to me is that if I did not tell you that these words were associated with taste, you can easily see it overlapping with community engagement. Like and a lot of it was discernment. One of my favorite things I heard from June um our designer was composition. And I was like what's composition? And as we started to dig deeper, it's the negotiation of space and relationship and how do you start to negotiate between elements, between people in order to provoke some sort of feeling, right? And the feeling may be something that can be explained, maybe it's not. And so in that sitting with that understanding of taste as the negotiation of relationship between things, right? There's that and then there's also going back to just like my brain of being somebody who has always created things and moving from buying things to creating things. What I started to realize was the gap between me and the people I admire, right? And so then in that I'll be like, "Oh man, this flying lotus bee is insane. How did he make that?" And I will try to make that and I cannot make that. Right. But in studying how it's being made, I am also absorbing in the craft that goes into it, the time, the discernment that then I just continue to just build a muscle whether it's for music, it's for visuals, it's for whatever that my brain is just always just archiving things to be able to reference again because at least I know that there's a north star of something that I find to be desirable. And my goal is to close the gap between what I can what I desire, which is somebody else's, and then what I can actually produce. But one of the things I heard recently that really excited me was an interview with Ryan Cougler, and he was asked like, "What's your favorite movie you've ever made?" and his answer was, "I don't necessarily have a favorite because all of those are moments that I did my best with the conditions that I was in." Right? And how do you start to look at your work in that way? He's like, "Oh, I was like 23 when I made this. I was this and all those things." And so in that like part of it is is like having this always on brain that's always categorizing cataloging things that then I can easily reference but then also on the other end being comfortable with knowing that what is being produced now is a factor of the conditions. It is an amalgamation of everything that's happening at this moment and doesn't need to define me into the future because in the future is going to open up opportunities for that as well. >> Yes. Yeah. >> No, no, no. I just want to I see you coming up. I just want to thank new so much for this conversation and I hope this is part one of many times we get to yap in public together. Let's [laughter] figure it out. >> Thank you. Thank you both so so much. Um, you know, I think I'm leaving this conversation with a little glimpse of possibility. Thank you for providing that um in all these methods and language and everything that that you both work with. Um, one of the beautiful things about the National Design Awards um are two things. the public programs. Um, we get to hear from people like new um, and many others, 10 per year, but you can imagine that's a long list of alumni since 2000. Um, and at Cooper Hoot, we bring them out, we go to their studios, we do workshops, so please stay in touch. Um, we, um, right now, a week ago, we opened the nominations for the 2027 awards, and anyone can nominate. So, all of you, cooper.orgnda, /nda. Um, go there, put in your nominations. Um, it changes people's lives. New >> It changed my life. Yeah. >> Um, so >> my whole life has changed. [laughter] >> Um, so anyway, please participate in that and and follow along. We have a great newsletter that tells about all the upcoming programs, too. Um, or just come by and come say hi. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And we have a little like five minutes or so to mingle. Um, please do. And, uh, take care. Thanks. >> [applause]