The Housing Market ‘Great Reset’ - How To Buy A Home For $0! | Pace Morby

What we want to see is what I've called a property owning democracy. >> Well, the Trump administration is considering declaring a national housing emergency here in the coming months. >> It is the best time to buy real estate if you are an investor. It's the worst time if you're a retail buyer. Do you own any stocks? Why would I? What about gold? You're thinking about like how do I save money rather than how do I make money? That's the difference between the Dave Ramsey audience and me. Save, save, save, save, save, save. I want to make I want to learn skills that I can go and make more money. Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a gamble at the end of the day. Real estate's a gamble. It's all a gamble. I'd rather go get a property with no money, let the cash flow than buy the Bitcoin. I do not take active income and buy Bitcoin with it. That's crazy. Why would I take real money and then take the risk on something that might fluctuate? Because Elon Musk posts a tweet. So, what should the everyday investor do today if they want to deploy their money? If I was going to start over from scratch and I was going to do it over, I probably would. >> Well, it seems like your specialty has always really been real estate at the end of the day. >> Yeah. >> How many units do you currently own? >> Uh, about 2,000. >> And what does that generate every month in cash flow? >> Um, it generates Okay. Cash flow. Cash flow. Is cash flow in my pocket or is cash flow income? >> Both. >> No. I'm curious what I'm curious what the what the gross would be and what the net is. >> You want to know but your audience needs to know the difference because one person will say like Brandon Turner, good friend of mine, he's been on the show. He'll say the word cash flow. Then another real estate investor will say cash flow. One guy means net, the other guy means income, right? So you have uh properties like that. My portion of that is close to a million dollars a month, but there's other partners in there that take their distributions as well, right? That's on the net side. On the grow side, oh my gosh. Like here, I'll show you one of my properties. I actually just got the income statement. I'll show this to you guys. So, income statement on 161 unit deal that I I've owned for about a year and a half. I bought it seller finance, so no bank involved. No credit check, none of that kind of stuff. This property um let's see, it is one bed, one bath, the income statement is right here. So, the first month I bought it, orange, that's the net that's in my pocket. What's that number? >> $29,904. >> Okay, cool. So, now a year and a half later, let's look at the Let's look at my net now. What's my net? >> Oh, 77,000. That's net in our pocket on one unit. And >> so, it changes, right? >> On one unit or like one >> one property, right? So, it's 161 units. That property we bought. So for your for your listeners if they want to go find these stuff this stuff you can go to like creativelisting.com. You could go to krexy.com. Have you guys ever heard of kraxy? Have you ever heard of loopnet? >> Yes. >> Okay. Lubnet their competitor which is a way better company I think is kxy.com. I don't own it. I don't get paid to promote it but krexy.com. >> That seller was on kxy.com trying to sell for 20 million. He kept reducing his price which is happening right now. It's like the number one thing happening right now. You heard Ben Ma and all these people talking about this on your show. People are reducing their prices. I go to a seller like that and I go, "Stop reducing your price. Just give me seller finance. I'll give you the number you want, but you just got to take payments over time." So, that seller on that property, um, I think we pay him like 40 grand a month, but he's our bank. I'm sorry. $54,166 a month. The seller gets instead of me paying a bank, I pay the seller. Right. Where does that money come from? The units, 161 units, generate $165,000 a month in income. Our net is $77,000 a month. No banks, no credit, no down payment, no money out of my pocket. 77 grand on one property. And that's while other people are saying, "Oh, the market's slow. That's a property that I just got the I just got my distribution today as a partner on that deal." So, depends. Every deal is a little bit different. If I was going to start over from scratch and I was going to do it over, I probably would jump into RV parks because they make the most bang for your buck. That's $20 million I bought that for. Again, I'm not coming up with any money, but that's 20 million for 77,000. There's RV parks you can buy for 3 million and you net 22,000. Like they they're like you're renting dirt is what you're doing. There's no maintenance. There's no issues. Um the people that manage them live on site and those make a ton of money. >> Yeah. What is your read on the real estate market over the next 10 years? >> Okay. So, I'm going to say stuff that your audience will probably disagree with me on because they like Ben Mullen and they like Dave Ramsey. Um, I think that some of the the exit strategies that are going to be required in real estate are going to really piss a lot of homeowners off. Um, people can't sell single family homes right now and rental rates are going to continue to go up. I don't think prices are going down. I think they stabilize and I think we're going to go up again. The Fed's going to lower rates again in September. I think we all know that. It's a 87% likelihood in September they're lowering rates. The market's going to continue to go up. It will always go up. So, what's going to happen? Affordability is going to go down. How do we solve affordability? Real estate investors are already doing this. It's in all 50 states. It is called co-living. Have you guys heard of co-living? >> Okay. The Actually, dude, I got a great story. Can I tell a story? Okay. >> Can I actually I got a I got a bunch of great stories. Okay. Did you guys know that you helped a homeless lady move into her first home coming up in the next couple of days? >> Is that from our original podcast? >> It's from your original podcast. So, we did a podcast how many years? Two years ago. >> Two and a half years ago. >> Okay. So, there's a Canadian guy listening. So, shout out to Gordon. Gordon listens to the podcast. He goes, "This guy's full of [ __ ] Like, there's no way this pace guy is is real." He comes and meets me in person at a meetup and he goes, "Oh my gosh, this guy might be real." Gordon quits acting, quits doing all the things he's doing. He is now like full-time real estate investor. Does like 35 deals every single year. Not licensed. I'm a non-licensed guy. I'm not an agent. I'm a real estate investor. >> Gordon is like just crushing it. Moves to Phoenix, Arizona, where I'm at, and he's like the biggest fan. He asked me, he's like, "Can I go and and like shake Graham in and Jack's hand?" I was like, "No, Graham, you know, he'll make you take your shoes off when you come to his house. I don't know that Graham's gonna be okay with that." >> Can't look him in the eye. >> Can't look him in the eye. No. I so I said, "No, no, no." But I wanted to give uh Gordon a shout out. And here's how this happened. Um in April of this year, I get an email from a homeless lady, and I always like to be the guy that is a practitioner. If I say I can do it, I I can promise that anybody can do it. So, this lady emails me, her name's Maddie, uh April 9th, sends me an email. Will you help me? I'm in a shelter. I'm like, I get these emails all the time. But then she says, I'm in Mesa, Arizona, which is right by my house. And I reply back and I go, "I'd love to help you, but you have to let me do a media release so I can share it with the world." So she says, "Okay." I go sit down with her and I go, "Oh, this is easy. I know exactly what she should do." She has no money. She has no education. She's 59-year-old 4'11 black lady. Her husband died at 55 when she was 55. She's been on the streets for four years. Like imagine what she has. Nothing. She has literally nothing. She has a broken phone that Obama gave her. Like back in 2018, Obama did this awesome legislation or 2016 that allowed everybody to have a phone. She still has her Obama phone. That's how she got her first deal. How did she get her first deal? Well, she worked with people like Gordon. She went to a guy that would listen to your podcast, works a deal with her. She makes five grand on her first deal, and now she's uh worked a second deal with Gordon, and she's now moving into the house. It's a co-living property. So, she bought it subject to. She took over the payments. No money down. She's renting out seven of the rooms and she's living in one for free. So, the other seven rooms are all being rented out for $8.75 a month. It's covering not only her cost of being there, the mortgage, the utilities, everything. She will net two grand a month. So, she's I'm not joking. I'm picking her up from the shelter on the 14th of this month and moving her straight into a home she's buying for half a million bucks with no money out of her pocket. That was a domino effect from that podcast that we did. >> So, you're saying she she already has a deal right now. >> She has a deal on she's it's in escrow. She closes on the 14th. >> But so, but is this the second deal though that she's going to be moving into? >> The second deal? So, the first deal she got paid a finder fee. >> Oh, okay. She didn't she doesn't own any real estate. >> She doesn't own anything. The first deal I told her I go, "Look, Maddie, you shouldn't own anything. You shouldn't manage anything. The first deal you should do," She goes, "Don't I need a license?" "No, you don't need a license." "Pace, don't I need a bank?" No, you don't need a bank. Pace, don't I need money? No, you don't need money. It's it's total hogwash. It's total [ __ ] It's the traditional mindset. And she goes, "What do I do?" And I go, "You find a buyer in town. You find out what the buyer wants, and you go find that deal for for them." So, she found a fix and flipper in Phoenix, Arizona, just in my free Facebook group. And she says, "What do you want?" The guy says, "I want a three bed, two bath house in Tempe, Arizona." She went and found people like Gordon. Got a deal, brought it to them. She got paid a $5,000 finder fee. And the sad part is when I picked her up, um, we got the check at the title company, I took her to the bank, the bank wouldn't let her deposit the money in the account. They were like, "You haven't had money in this account in 5 years. You're telling me you all a sudden have $5,000?" So, she had to come out in the parking lot and grab me. She goes, "Can you talk to the banker and tell them like I'm this is not a fake check?" And um, so we deposit the money. She I drop her back off at the shelter. Couple days later, she goes, "Okay, I'm ready to like move into my own house." I'm like, "Maddie, are you sure? like you're ready to own a property. And she goes, "If I can do it with no money, I can do it without credit and I can rent out the rooms, I can handle it." So Gordon, who listened to the podcast, shout out Gordon, Canadian dude, awesome guy, brings the deal to her. She's moving into it on the 14th, um, and she'll net $2,000 a month on that little house. >> Now, the risk, though, is that because she's taking over this house, she's relying on the rental income from renting out the other units to make the payment. What happens if something between the tenants goes wrong >> or there's a major repair or something happens to the house and all of a sudden she doesn't have the income to pay for this? >> Okay, so a couple things. Um, Graham's mind always goes to risk. This lady's in a shelter. The worst thing that could happen to her is that she goes back into a shelter. So, let's like hit that home first and so she's in a shelter right now going into a home. >> And if these tenants don't pay, then she's not educated first and foremost. You don't buy stuff that people aren't going to pay. Guys, Dave Ramsey is wrong about one thing. He's right about so many things. I love him. I think he's one of the greatest marketers. When he says stuff like, "Oh, the tenants don't pay the mortgage." Yes, they do. Look at my Do you not see my P&L? I will show you my P&L open. Of course, they pay the payments. You don't buy something that you can't handle vacancy rate. If the vacancy goes down or let's say vacancy goes up and I can't make my payments, I should have never bought that deal. You do your risk tolerance all upfront. So, she's renting. Do you guys have you ever heard of Padsplit? Okay. I know you have. >> Sounds familiar. >> Okay. So, Padsplit is a company that is nationwide and what they do is they handle the management of these tenants. They fill the rooms. They collect the money. The occupancy on that house and that neighborhood. they've already done the underwriting and they say even if you had two or three tenants that all moved out at the same time, this property will still cash flow. The average um uh occupancy of a pad split is like 90%. So if she has nine um tenants in there, she's going to average eight people in the house at any given time. They rent by the week. So she's not renting. These people are not tenants. They do not have a lease agreement. They have a it's a club. Oh my gosh, man. We could talk about this for an hour. Padsplit has gone around all the leasing laws. They've gotten around all the residential rental laws by creating a club. So when you're a renter in this house, you are a member of a club and you pay a month a weekly fee. This is in every country or every state by the way guys. padsplit.com. I don't own the company. We just use the platform. It's awesome. So Padsplit brings in the tenants. The average tenant is paying875 a month. They get their rent, their cleaning, their utilities, their internet, their pool, their landscape all included for the 875. So it's affordable housing. It's this is the thing that's going to make a lot of people upset. People that live in nice neighborhoods that houses are not selling. Guess what investors are doing with them? And what are investors doing with Airbnbs as well? Airbnbs got smashed the last couple of years. And I told people 5 years ago, get the hell out of Airbnb. It's the worst model. It that's risk. Like you're relying on the economy and people traveling. What Mattie is relying on is people paying rent that is so affordable. The average rent for something similar is 1,400 bucks. She's renting out for 875. Where's her risk? Well, I guess if everybody dies in one day, I guess they that could all happen. In that situation, I guess she moves back into the shelter. >> And what about repairs? >> Uh, that's all included. Like, if you look at all of our P&Ls, the repairs are 10% of all the income. So, if I bring in $160,000 into that apartment building, for example, we put $16,000 a month to the side before we even consider that even profit. Like, that's part of capex. It's part of the Ben Maul is probably one of the best even talking about this. You put that money to the side before you even put it at the bottom of of the sheet, if that makes sense. >> So, what do you think is going to happen to the real estate market over the next 10 years? Uh, I want to show you a chart. This has been going somewhat viral on Twitter lately. >> Yeah, I'd love to see it. >> Oh, yeah. I love these cycles. Yeah, >> this is the 180year-old real estate cycle. >> It's one of my favorite charts. the market's going to peak in 2026. And then there's an 18-year real estate cycle that also says the market's going to peak in 2026. It's the first time that they've coincided at the same year. >> Okay, so here's my belief, and I could be wrong. Um, I haven't been wrong in 13 years, but I could be wrong. Um, I don't think that that's going to happen, right? I think the only people that want the market to crash are YouTubers that have been saying the market's going to crash for the last 10 years, and it hasn't. And I think that this belief system of the market is going to crash. I think that if interest What do you think Trump is going to do? >> Trump will do whatever he he can to make sure that interest rates get lowered. Whether it's pushing pressure on the Fed >> or I mean did you see that freaking interview how awkward that was? He was just making feel like a little child. >> He will completely do that. Now whether you hate or you like Trump, I think Trump is going to play the game to get interest rates incredibly low. So tell me if in if he can get interest rates to get down closer to 2 or 3% how is the market going to crash? It will go it will do the exact opposite. >> Do you think that 2 to 3% interest rates are even feasible though? Like wouldn't it just push prices way higher and prices are already relatively very high right now? >> So they're saying here >> prices are not high interest rates are high. >> Here here's the counter to what you're saying is that right now mortgage rates are already pricing in one to two small Fed cuts this year. Yeah, >> somewhat priced in already. So, we might see, you know, a small variable from that. But the counterpoint to you is that let's just say we do lower interest rates 200 basis points. >> The theory is that even though they might be lowered on paper, it's not going to signal a lot of confidence for the United States that other countries who buy the treasuries, there might not be enough demand to buy those treasuries, which would cause interest rates to basically stay high because they have to incentivize enough people to buy them. And that would cause mortgage rates to stay higher than the cut, if that makes sense. >> Okay. So, we're talking about consumers, right? And I'm not I'm one I'm not a consumer. I'm not a retail buyer. I don't deal with retail buyers. Um the cons the person you're asking questions about is you're asking about the retail buyer, which I don't deal with. You're asking about real estate agents, which have had the worst year in the last what was it? 2025 is going to be a 100,000 units less than 2024. in 2024 was the worst real estate record for like 39 years for real estate agents. Those guys are going to get their ass handed to them for the next couple of years. When you're talking about real estate investors, this is a different conversation. Agents have no hope. Like they have no hope. What's happening is most of them are leaving in droves. What is it? 2.5 million agents and like 500,000 of them are leaving this year. Those guys have no hope. But people that know what they're doing, the real estate investors are dominating. All my friends that have money and know what they're doing. Ken Maroy for example, right? Robert Kiyosaki's partner. I know you guys are going to interview him next week. Ask him how much they're building. How much are they buying? How much are they raising capital right now? Ken Maro, their partner, is flying around the globe and raising money to buy real estate. It is the best time to buy real estate if you are an investor. It's the worst time if you're a retail buyer. So, I agree like from a retail perspective, people are going to have a hard time. They have been. It will continue to be hard for retail investors. for people like us that know what we're doing, we pivot. >> But why couldn't So, why couldn't a retail buyer theoretically just be a retail investor? Now, really quick, from my own experience, I just want to say that managing a rental property could often feel like a part-time job. You're tracking income, managing expenses. It's hard not to miss anything and it adds up fast. That's why our sponsor, Baseline, an integrated banking and bookkeeping platform, launched Baseline Smart, an automation upgrade that makes your rental finances run in the background. 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So, if you're serious about growing your portfolio and you want your finances to run hands-free, try Baseline Smart for 30 days by going to baselane.com/istic or using the link down below in the description. Again, that is baselink.com/icisted with the link down below in the description. So, why couldn't a retail buyer theoretically just be a retail investor? >> They could if they were watching your podcast and they learned how to do it, they could go and do that. But the problem is most people are thinking they're they're blaming everybody else. They're saying, "Oh, I can't buy a house. Oh, it's the this. It's what did Dave Ramsey say on your guys' podcast the other day? They're blaming millenn or they're blaming Jen whatever for the reason they can't buy a house. Oh, I bought this house for a bundle of strawberries. They can they could literally go right now like creativelisting.com. You can go there right now and buy a 2% rate right now on a house. No credit check. So what's keeping them? Education access. Like it's out there. You have your phone. You have ChatGBT. ChatgBT will actually go, "Hey, if you want to buy a house at 2% or 3%, go to creative listing.com." It will literally feed the information to you. There's nothing keeping them from doing it other than their own fingers. Like I I don't know. It blows my mind. Here's the thing. You've got most of the the market going, I can't buy a house because they're too expensive. That's not true. The houses are not too expensive. You just can't qualify for a mortgage at a 6% rate. That's actually the problem. If rates went down to 4% or 3%, could they afford the house? Yes or no? >> The answer is yes. >> Depends. But see, I put myself in that exact same position. I qualify for whatever interest rate the the thing is. No money down. I could I just see such a big discrepancy between what I could rent a house for and the cost of owning. And when I see that, I think, why on earth would I buy something right now when I could rent it for half the cost? >> Okay, here's the reason why. Look at you guys should Google this. This is common commonly comes up with my friend Grant Cardone and other people go, "You should rent a house." No, you shouldn't. You should own your house. And the reason being is because 99% of your audience is not as smart as you or as me. They're not as seasoned as in business quite yet. The average renter, do you guys know what their net worth is? Like you take the same. >> Yeah, of course it's 80 400 bucks and the average homeowner is like 100 grand. But the average homeowner's net worth is $400,000. >> I don't think that's because they bought or rent. I think the type of person to buy a house is going to be the type of person to have a good income, to save money, to have their finances down. Overall, I don't think it's because they let me make an Let me make an argument and I say I agree with you. >> Yeah. >> So, you want people to have the mindset of a renter, not the mindset of somebody who owns a house. >> No. Have the mindset of whatever makes the most money for you. And right now I'm I'm in such a firm belief that right now renting is a superior option to buying unless you plan to keep the house for at least 10 years or under certain circumstances where there's an emotional component of owning a house. You want to raise a family there. You need stability. >> That's like what Ben on your podcast. He's like this is my personal home. What do I care for cashless? 100%. >> Same thing for me. If you have a wife, you have kids, it's like you should own the house. >> Definitely. Definitely. But I think if you're in your 20s or 30s and you look at it purely from a financial standpoint, >> for example, yes, I agree. >> Just a financial standpoint at today's prices to me, I think it's a no-brainer to rent if you would be disciplined enough to save the difference. >> And you think that because the interest rates are high enough that your payment would far sup um supersede what your monthly payment would be if you got a loan. It's not just interest rate, it's interest rates and prices. Because if prices came down to a certain point, but interest rates were at 8%. >> You could make the argument that okay, it just it's just how does it compare to any other option out there? >> It's also just cost of ownership. And that includes a bunch of other things, tax, stuff like that. But the problem is that yes, Graham's assumption is that people are as smart as him. The reality of the situation is that most aren't. And so if you tell someone to rent instead of buying so they can save the difference like I don't think anyone's going to do that. I have so many friends. This is my argument. This is exactly my argument. >> I have so many friends my age. I was trying. >> I have so many friends my age and I'm not going to say their names. Jack I'm saying your name. It's not me. It's a different Jack. >> He's lived with his parents for a few years and he could have saved the amount of money that he was he would have spent on rent if he didn't live with his parents and he could have a down payment on a house right now but he hasn't. >> Okay. And that's a smart person. He's a smart person. >> Graham and I are very different people. And I appreciate Grant the type of people Graham um represents. I operate better with pressure on my back. I just do. Meaning if I have a kid coming, I'm going to work harder. Right? What did Alexi say? He said this a dozen times. He's like, "If you have more kids, it's statistically shown that because of the pressure of having kids, you are going to earn more money." I think you have to alleviate the optionality that you give people of saying, "Well, save the money and invest the rest." They ain't going to do that. >> Look at how Look at how that turned out with college student loans. Do you think that put pressure on people to make more money when they're graduating 100 grand of student loan debt? No. I I think >> I don't I don't disagree with you on that. I think there there could be a a situation and this is my hot take in 20 years from now we look back and say we we we forced down buying a home as the American dream just like we did with a college education and man maybe that wasn't the right choice. >> I think you're right. But that would be a completely different list of reasons than what we're assuming right now. It could be because AI robots can create houses way faster and the cost of houses go down. We have no idea what the market's going to look like in 20 years. That's just a wild speculation that you can throw out way in the future. But if we're talking in terms of like where we're at right now, then it makes more sense, I think, because it's a force. >> So, you're you agree with me is that it that is exactly it. I believe it's a force savings account. It forces people to actually do the thing they said they were going to do. >> It's the argument of like credit card versus debit card. You know what I mean? It's like sure, if you optimize with a credit card, you're probably better off because you're saving 1 to 2%. But if you use a debit card, you're going to spend less according to studies because of the psychology and how that gets in the way. >> It's not really a forced savings account anymore. If you have a 7% mortgage rate, you're paying 7% for the mortgage. You're paying another 1% for property tax. You're paying another 1% on insurance and random things. So, you're paying like 9% now. That's not a savings account. >> There's appreciation of the property. Maybe there's appreciation. Look at Look at Texas. Look at Florida. They lost 15 20% from peak. >> Yeah. In certain markets. Yeah. like Austin's really like compressed. I agree with that entirely. >> I I just I have trouble today thinking that the real estate market is always going to be going up in perpetuity or that prices are guaranteed to be higher 50 years from now than today. And I think overall I I would bet more likely than not, but I just don't see that as being a sure thing in certain cities. >> Let me try and agree with you. >> Okay, >> I will agree with you on certain things like single family like the McMansions. I think a lot of those are going to go away. I think your age group does not give a crap about those. You guys care about more about like individual experiences and traveling and all of those types of things. You don't care about big massive houses. I think a lot of those things are going to change and they're going to evolve and I think a lot of single family houses are going to get chopped up into co-l livingiving that are not in HOAs. I think the world of of single family will go a way that we at least understand for sure. I agree. I do think that even if they printed houses, right? I know a lot of builders they guys they control the demand like they're land baking 15 years in the future. These guys are buying land and sitting on it for 15 years until prices go up. People are not builders py homes and all these big people. >> They are not going okay we can make a ton of money by making these cheap. That is never going to happen. They bought that land 15 years ago. They are they have to make the money they have to make. Even if technology comes along, they're going to wait until the market goes up, then print a bunch of houses. Look what the builders are doing right now. They're pulling back. They're taking some of their losses. They're giving people all these incentives and they're pulling back and they're stopping building. Why? They could build houses right now, could they not? Make them cheaper. >> No, >> they couldn't necessarily. They just released their look at LAR. Look how much money Lar taking losses, wouldn't it? But it would for them not to less money. They wouldn't make a loss. They would make less money. And when you tell you say, "Hey, these people are going to start printing houses." Like in Cassag Grand, they printed an entire community all out of concrete just south of where I'm at, they will release them as slow as they possibly can to keep profits high. LAR is incentivized to do that. And so p nobody's going to figure out technology and go, "All right, guys. We figured it out. We can make houses super affordable. Let's print the crap out of these things." It's not going to happen unless the government does it. And is the government good at doing that? Doesn't all it take though is one company to do it to under like we have a Robin Hood where all of a sudden they come up with zero trades and every other brokerage. >> I'll give you a company that's doing it right now. Um I'm not associated with them but the name of the company is Sol O L out of um Los Angeles and they do modular homes. So what they do is they pour concrete base. You saw what they did in California um where they spent like $2 million per unit for homeless people. Like that whole thing awful. >> Okay. But that's when the government does it, right? Okay, cool. But when an individual enterprise does it, they they pour the first floor, they then stack these modular homes on it and it's a beautiful model and it works really really well. The problem is it takes three years for permits, four years for permits. So even if somebody comes along with a great unbelievable solution, the government's going to prevent them from doing it. And when you have such a polarized world of like blues versus reds, blues versus reds, good luck solving any problem in today's political environment. Everything is used as warfare every single time. And so you just got to understand, I don't think they're ever going to solve affordable housing. They never have. They never will. Name one. Name one president that made affordable housing more reachable. Name one. It's never happened. Never once has it happened. It's only gone like this. It's going to continue to happen. Why? Because they're incentivized to not make it happen. Now, what's crazy, I don't know how they're affording it. I think what Dave Ramsey said the other day about how disgusting it is about how much they're printing money. I agree with him. a lot of the your audience and you know like the Dave Ramsey world, right? I think people that are listening to Dave Ramsey are people that are at a nineto-five job that go I want to save my shekeuckles and I want to go and invest and buy a little bit of Bitcoin. I want to play it safe. That's not my audience. My audience is like I want to be worth 100 million bucks. I want to be worth $20 million. I'm going to work I want to be a millionaire. I'm not excited about saving money on this or saving money. I want to learn how to make money much more like Ben Ben Mala's audience. Ben Mala's audience is like, if I use debt correctly, I can be a multi-millionaire. That's not Dave Ramsey's audience. I'm somewhere in between. I'm a little bit closer to Ben Mala, but also I don't use his strategies. What are his strategies? He waits for he waits for the bank to tell him when he should borrow money. I don't wait for any of that. I go directly to the seller and they are my bank. And I go, I want 2% interest. I want 3% interest. I want 4% interest. And so for me, prices are really not that important. It's my ability to get into the deal and my ability to cash flow it. >> Now, wouldn't that though over the first few years really balance itself out if you give a if you pay a higher price, let's say, but you get a lower interest rate? Isn't that about the same thing as coming in with cash and say, "Hey, I want a 20% discount today, but I got the cash to do it." >> Here's an interesting thing. I will never use my own cash. Why? Where do I put my cash? I put my cash where I can make more money. Going back to your rent versus own situation. I lend money as a one of my businesses. Okay, so people come to me. I have a guy that has a Walmart contract, a really weird deal. Guy comes to me and goes, "Hey, I've got a the ability to rent the front of Walmart." You know those like eyeglass center places in Walmart? He has a first writer refusal for like 2500 bucks and he's arbiting to eyeglass centers for 8,500 bucks for rent. He has a like first ride refusal on 2,700 stores. And I'm like, "How do I get involved?" He goes, "I need $200,000 of seed capital." So, I go, "Okay, I'll do that loan." Now, your mind very different than my mind. You and I could never be business partners ever. >> Uh-oh. >> Okay. But we could be friends. So, I give him a $200,000 loan. What's my return at the end of the year? 200 grand. I give him 200. I get 400 back at the end of the year. $200,000 return. I double my money. That's my That's what drives me. I don't want to go put 11 like, "Hey, give me a 10% return." Which I think some people in stocks are like, "10% returns great. I would not waste my freaking time for a 10% return. That's ridiculous. Now, other people go, "Well, how are you collateralized?" So, I go to that guy, his name's Greg, that I just loaned the 200 grand. He owns two pieces of land, free and clear. He owns an Airbnb. And I go, "Colateralize my money at $450." So, I give you a $200,000 loan. I want to collateralize against those two pieces of land and your Airbnb at $450,000. So, I'm double collateralized plus a $50,000 buffer for legal fees. >> So, why would he do that instead of just taking like a heliloc? >> Perfect. and like putting that money in. >> Okay. So, you uh you guys come from the traditional world where everybody you know can go get a heliloc. Guess who can't get helocks, Jack? Most people. I can't go. You can go down cuz you have traditional fin you're financable. Look at hardly I couldn't get a loan for the house I'm buying. The only reason I got it is because it's with Schwab and I I've been partners with them for a long time. >> Okay. So, this is Graham gave me a good contact. They're your chase contact. >> You're asking a question of like, well, why doesn't somebody go get a heliloc? In the same breath, you are saying it was almost impossible for me to get a loan. >> But still, that just seems like a hefty price to pay to >> Okay, but if you're guys, you're thinking about like how do I save money rather than how do I make money? That's the difference between the Dave Ramsey audience and me. Save save. I want to make I want to learn skills that I can go and make more money. Another one. Here's a good one. Check this out. This makes this will make a lot more sense than the Walmart contract. So, somebody buys a piece of land. Okay? They've got an option on the piece of land. You know what an option is, Jack? So, I don't have to buy it. I have an option to buy it. They go to Starbucks and they say, "Starbucks, we want to build this building on this land. We need you to give us a 15-year lease." Okay. Now, when they execute this option, they have a really short time frame in order to execute the option. They need $2 million to do this and get their construction loan. A guy like me, I can wire $2 million to this situation right now. I don't have to go through all the arduous journey and I can make a deal like this happen overnight. I'm doing a deal like this right now. I'll loan $2 million on the deal and I'll get 700 grand grand back in 90 days. Why didn't he just go get a loan? Because no bank one is going to give you a loan on dirt that hasn't been developed, especially give you a loan for $2 million to make sure that this whole entire thing is secure. It's not in their loan box. They're not doing that stuff. They like the people with jobs. They like the people with W2 income. So where what do the people that are like me, business owners, how do we go get money? How do we get access to cash? >> So do you think that banks are going to start suffering if they're getting undercut if a bunch of people start using strategies like this? And why not? >> This is less than 3% of all the transactions in the country. >> And what is what is your collateral? Because if a bank won't do it, the dirt Yeah. >> personal guarantee against the developer. He has his own business. He has money of his own, but he just doesn't have liquid cash. Has there been time where you have net worth and money but you don't have access to the liquid >> right now? >> Right now. >> So let's say okay so Jack let's let's do this on my lending business for example which you probably don't care about but this just kind of points out the traditional versus non-traditional mindset. If you find a great deal right now right you have a non-traditional kind of funky deal right now right >> and you're not even full-time looking into real estate. >> What if you were? You think you'd find more of those opportunities? >> Probably. >> A guy like me solves your problems. So you go I if I ever need money to close escro in three days or four days you as a real estate agent did you ever see weird situations where like the lender didn't close and you got people got in trouble and deals blew up? >> No. Usually the worst case is we get a week extension like usually >> that you must have had great lenders. Most of the the agents and I wanted to see this in the comments guys by the way. Agents will go yeah my lenders will kick back 30 days or 45 days. Guess what I do? I come in I close on the deal. I'm basically a hard money lender in that situation and I bridge that gap for those people. So that's non-traditional thinking. >> So I offered Jack 7%. He said it was too much. >> Yeah. I got 5.7%. So it's, you know, pretty good. >> I said I said he could borrow at 7% no money down. >> Yeah, it's great. >> That's a fantastic deal. >> It's a phenomenal deal. >> I didn't know you had no money down. >> What do you mean? I But guess dude, I I offer I offered that to you. Sounds like a scam and a few people. Do you think 7% no money down or 30% down 5.725%. >> Okay, so let's think about this. 30% down is the dumbest thing ever. Why? Because I can make way more money. So let's let's think about just a traditional flip. Okay, if I go and buy a fix and flip, how are people buying fix and flips and and buying them with no money? They go get a hard money loan, right? >> Yeah. >> And what's a hard money loan? Typically >> 12 10 to 12%. Maybe Graham's friends are really cheap. They're 10%. Most hard money lenders are going to be like 12% plus two points. Okay, I know this might go over some people's heads. If I can buy a flip with no money down, no money out of my pocket, and I can go flip that house and I can make $50,000 on a flip. I've got a house right now. If I just did this deal, made 55,000 bucks. If my lender's giving me 12%. Why would I use my own money? A small man thinking is is this, oh, I'm going to save 12%. So, I'll use my money to save the 12%. That's how most people think. But as a business owner, I go, "Where else can I use my money instead of this flip that will make me more than the 12%." So, I'll go do the Starbucks deal or I'll go do the Walmart deal or I'll go do other loans that make me far more money than me using my own money on real estate transactions. 30% Jack, that's lunacy. Where else could you have used that money? The difference is >> it would have just gone into stock market. >> This is what I'm saying. The difference >> just lose it in the stock market. >> I agree. You could just lose in the stock market. The difference is this. People that are listening to Dave Ramsey, amazing human beings, but most of them are thinking, "How do I save money?" People listen to me, they go, "I want to make money with my money." They would look at that 30% go, I'm not going to put 30% on a loan when I could get zero down loan from him. He's going to make 7%. You'd be happy. Where else could Jack make that money? Well, if Jack has the mindset of I'm busy building my podcast. I'm building on building this business. I don't have time to go find a place to put that 30%. So, I'll put that that 30% in more passive investment. Makes sense for you. For me, there ain't no way in hell I'm putting 30% down on something because I know where else to put it that will make me way more money. That's the difference. It's not that you're right or you're or I'm wrong or vice versa. It's that what is right for you specifically. And for you, it's like I'm busy. You're building a business. You guys are doing all this stuff. You guys are getting Robert Kiasaki on the show. Who knows what's going to happen with that, right? You guys might be flying out today. Hey, you might be flying out tomorrow. I don't know. So, you're busy doing stuff. So, it makes sense for certain demographics to go, "Yeah, I don't want to deal with all the stuff that Pace does." I get that. I'm not for everybody. I'm for the people that are like, "No, I want to go learn how to make more money." >> Although, before we go into that, when it comes to business, they say that you could get better, cheaper, or faster, but you could only pick two. But what if you could have all three? That's exactly what O'Hare, Thompson Reuters, and Specialized Bikes have since they upgraded to the next generation of the cloud, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. OCI is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs where you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high performing environment and spend less than you would with other clouds. How is it faster? Well, OCI's block storage gives you more operations per second. How is it cheaper, you might ask? Well, OCI costs up to 50% less for compute, 70% less for storage, and 80% less for networking. And better? Well, in test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other clouds. This is the cloud built for AI and all of your biggest workloads. So right now with zero commitment, try OCI for free. Just head to oracle.com/ic with the link down below in the description. Again, that is oracle.com/ic link down below. Thank you so much and we appreciate Oracle for sponsoring this podcast. So if you're trying to grow like 100% ROI in a year or 100% ROI, >> not trying, but I do get those deals. Yes. >> So what's the most you've ever got burned on a deal? Um, okay. I've never been burned on a lending deal because I get more collateral than what I loan. So, I have a guy right now that owes me $65,000. We're selling his stocks and I'm getting not just my 65 grand, but also the legal fees involved plus the return that I was promised. I will make all of the money I was promised. Even though he defaulted on the loan, I will only loan to people who have the collateral to do so. >> So, here's what I'm really confused about. Why would he default on the loan when he's going to be responsible for legal costs and he has the stocks to sell? It's not like in a liquid deal he could just forgo all the legal fees, save that money, sell the stock. >> You guys got to come hang out with me for a day. You'll see all these fun things. So he's got a permit delay on his project and so it's been kicked back over and over and over. It's a city ma municipality thing. >> So I'm basically going to him and saying I'm saying, "Hey man, it's been like 6 months. You were supposed to pay 3 months. So either a I give you an extension, we write a new loan and we reset the buttons or you go liquid uh liquidate your stocks and you get me paid out right now. And he goes, I don't know when this lender is going to get this thing done and I have no faith in them. Let me just sell my stocks. So in that situation, he's not technically defaulting. His new lender that's supposed to come in and wipe me out is just taking way longer cuz it's a development, right? They underwrite differently. >> But what if he just sells his stocks and then buys a Lambo? >> You know, like do you have any control? Is there like an escrow account? You >> guys ever heard of a UCCC1? >> Okay. So, UCCC1 is a business lean. So, I can lean your property. A UCCC1 allows me to lean an LLC that owns stock or a trust that owns stock. So, let's say you're going to go do business with somebody. Graham, if you and I decide to go start, let's say, a coffee plantation, right? Like somewhere in South America. We want to go build this cool thing. you would want to do a UCCC search on me to see if I have any leans on any of my LLC's. A lot of people don't even know that exists. So, I can s I can um lock up his LLC that owns those things so he doesn't have the technical ability to go and sell anything without my permission. >> H UCCC1 look how does the average person go about starting in hard money lending? Let's just say someone has 100 grand and they say that sounds good to me. I'm willing to risk it. How much money you got, Graham, to give me right now? >> Like on on a lending situation? >> How much you need? >> You got 100 grand? >> Yeah. Sure. >> Okay. How much you want on your your 100 grand? >> 20% would be awesome. >> Okay. So, here's what I would do with you. And I This is the same thing I did with Jack. Okay. Jack, I promised him, let me bring you a deal. He turned it down. It's cash flowing like crazy. I'll email it over to you. >> Email it to me. I'll show you what I got. >> It's only cash cuz Jack. >> Okay, guys. If you are watching this, I don't even know where to send people. DM me on Instagram. I'll give you the P&L that he turned down. He'd have 50% ownership and you'd be cash flowing right now. You went and visited the property with me, Jack, you crazy man. I know, but I'll show you what I got. Okay, show me what you got. Yeah. Anyway, so here's what I would do. Um, I would JV with you. Okay, here's how what I mean by that. Joint venture. I know where the lending opportunities are. You starting out, you have 100 grand, right? >> Sure. >> Okay. So, you bring 100 grand to me, Graham. I will I'll make a YouTube video out of it, but if we end up doing it, you probably won't do it. But you give me 100 grand, I will JV with you on lending opportunities, and I'll give you a personal guarantee against that asset I just showed you. So, you have no downside risk. You give me 100 grand. Here's what I would do. I'd go find somebody that's flipping, which they're everywhere. People are flipping. 500,000 people are currently actively developing or flipping a property right now in the United States. Insane amount of people are developing. You guys drive around Vegas, you see it all all over. Those people all need capital. They need quick capital that doesn't go through a bank, that doesn't require all sorts of arduous journey. If you brought that money to me, I would just take your $100,000 and I'd go lend it out at 30% or 40%. How do I do that? Somebody, some legal person is going to be in the notes going, "Well, that's usery. You can't charge people 30 and 40%." Yeah, cuz I'm not I'm partnering with them on the deal. I go, I will get bring $100,000 to the transaction, but I want 30% of the transaction. I want 30% of the net profit. So, I'm not lending technically. I'm actually joint venturing on their project. So, like that Starbucks, I'm a partner on that deal because I brought money to the >> So, you have to run the numbers then to make sure when they sell that that there's enough to pay you whatever that value is. >> The smarter thing to do like Okay, so I would never give him your money at 7%. And the reason being is because you could go there's companies that do this like um there's a company called Loan Ranger. don't make any money to tell you this, but if you go to loneranger.com, they're a hard money lender, they're worth like $5 billion. You give them your hundred grand, they're going to give you 10% every single year. Interest only, 10%. Why would you give him 7%. Cuz you didn't know Loan Ranger existed. >> Well, cuz I know Jack. And do you have a savings account? >> Uh, do I have a savings? No, I don't have a savings account. >> So, is your savings and loan ranger >> is my savings and loan ranger Jack? Ask Robert Kiyosaki on Monday when you interview him if he has a savings account. Ask Ben Mala if he has a savings account. >> Ben definitely has a savings account. >> There's no way. Ben, >> you have to What did Kevin Ori say? He's got $5 million >> times. Okay, but here here's the difference. So, let let me pull up like one of my accounts. Okay, none of this is my savings account. I run businesses that have cash in them and operate and there's excess cash. That's a different conversation. Do I have a personal savings account? Absolutely not. Ask Grant Cardone or Ben Mala. I mean, I'm sure Dave Ramsey's going to tell people, "Yeah, I have a savings account." He don't have a savings account. He's a freaking $200 million a year business. That's his savings account. He doesn't have a savings account. Okay, so check it out. So, let's look at like a couple So, like this account has a couple hundred,000 in it. Let's go to here's my lending business has like 900 grand sitting in it. Um, Sawarro, that's one of my accounts that we do lending out of as well. Let's go to like my RV park that one of the RV parks right here. One of my RV parks constantly has $150,000 sitting in it. Almost every month is generating $150,000. What do I need a savings account for? What is an emergency, Jack, that I would need need a savings account for? Let's ask that question. >> Well, just places to park your cash if if >> Okay, so where do I invest my cash? I put in my own lending business. I just keep putting my money into my own lending business. >> So, what's your average ROI on your lending business per year over the past few years? >> Um, okay. So this um we just >> You can't lend everything. >> No, I can't lend everything. I also buy businesses as well. So um and I'll invest as an LP in other people's stuff. So like I have students that will do like storage facilities. I don't do storage units, but I'll invest in theirs. I have students that do boutique hotels. I'll invest in theirs. So I'll be an LP in other people's deals and I'll plug cash into those transactions. Um and those, you know, there's like 15 to 20%. They're safe. They're tied to an asset. So I'll play that game of like 15 to 20%. There's no way you're getting me to make 7% on money. No way, Graham. Go to Lone Ranger. Get 10%. Don't give that 7% to >> What's the risk? Isn't there always a risk the higher the return you get? >> Um yeah, the the risk is if Loan Ranger goes defunct. Yeah, for sure. I think that there's definitely inherent risk in everything that you do. For sure. So, >> reminds you similar of like Lending Club when that was a thing. Yeah. and they had these initial high rates of return >> and then 2019 2020 >> 10% is not that high. >> It was it was 8 to 12 depending on the credit rating but what ended up happening is that you had a lot of people halfway through the loan just start falling behind when collections and that brought down your overall return and then you had people saying well I made 4% on this or I made 3% over two years and it wasn't worth it. >> Yeah, makes sense. Loan Ranger, that's not the agreement you have with Loan Ranger. Yeah. um the agreement is a flat 10%. You're not deciding where that money is. They are. And then they back it with their balance sheet. So somebody like a lone ranger or like even a creative funding, there's a creative funding company that will do the same exact thing. I think they'll pay like 12%. And what they're doing is they're arbitrageing your money at 14, 16, and 18%. And what they're doing it for is they're giving people like 70% loan to value, requiring them to put 30% up front on a a development. So they're somewhat protected, but there's definitely risk. You got to be careful. Or you could just put your money in your savings account and it makes a lot of money there. >> I'm just worried that I see so many syndications that raise money from like 2020, 2021, 22. They're getting crushed. >> They're getting their asses. What? But why? Let's talk about why that is. >> Syndicators did what I So I have a fund which means I've raised money. What's the difference between a fund and a syndication? Do you guys know >> what syndication is raising other people's money? And >> they're both in like kind of the same exact thing. there. When you hear the word fund versus syndication, a syndication means I found 123 Main Street. We are raising money for 123 Main Street. That's a syndicate. >> Uh a fund is we like properties similar to 223 Main Street. We want to go buy a ton of them. So, let's go raise money for a blind fund is basically what it is. >> I have a fund, but what is what are the assets I buy? The only assets I buy with other people's money are properties that do not have variable rate interest. Mhm. >> What did every dumbass syndicator go and do? >> Y >> they went and bought short-term deals. This is how stupid they were. They were so greedy. Look at the market. It's going up like crazy. Let's go raise a bunch of other people's money. Get 3% temporary debt >> and it's floating. Which means it when the Fed goes up, their payment goes up. Yes. >> And now all of a sudden they're not cash flowing. Now all of a sudden they're in foreclosure. Guess what? That's called traditional real estate where people use their credit. Dumb asses. We go to sellers and I say, "Hey, seller, like the 161 unit." Seller gives me a 20-year note at 4% interest. I'm locked in for 20 years. It doesn't matter what Jerome Powell or anybody at the Fed is doing. I have 4% interest with the seller. So, if I go raise money, the Fed goes up to seven or eight or whatever the heck it does. Does it matter to me or do I continue to cash flow? That's the difference in what I do versus people even Ben Mala. >> It does. It does affect you to some degree though of cap rates. If I'm exiting the deal, right? If I'm exiting the deal, cap rate does make a difference, right? If I am holding the deal and it's shelling out $77,000 a month to me, do I care where the cap rates are? >> No, I don't. Because the cap rates only make sense when I'm selling the deal to somebody who's going to go get a traditional loan. Cap rate, that's the only time cap rate makes sense for me, the owner of that property. Otherwise, I don't care. I'm isolated from all of that crap. So, people overstress about cap rates. They overstress. I buy a quality asset with no money down. I hold the asset. I make money. When the market shifts and the cap rates are now favorable, we will then make a decision, but I have 20 years. How much time does a syndication have? 3 to five. Bro, that's like putting a time bomb in your pocket. Dumbest thing I ever seen people do. And I've seen um I had somebody come to me the other day. They go, "So, I invested in somebody's deal in a syndication and me and $40 million of other people's money is all being wa washed." I'm like, "Yeah, welcome to a trillion dollar loss this year." Like, all these syndicators are getting their butts kicked. >> Yeah, >> it's a problem. I agree with you. But that's tra traditional real estate. What did they do? They gambled on interest rates staying low so they could exit to a larger company like a Black Rockck or whoever, right? And they gambled wrong. And I think close to a trillion dollars in debt is coming due. It's a mess. See, that's where I think as an investor, it does make sense to make money in real estate buying those deals where the loans are coming due and they have to exit. There aren't that many buyers. >> Yeah, but even then, I don't touch those deals either. This is very different than me. People are like, "Pace, are you going after those commercial deals?" I have banks calling me going, "Hey, we have somebody's loan coming due. Will you come in and buy it?" Like Ken Mackerel, you guys will meet him through Robert um Kasaki. Banks are calling me going, "Hey, our borrower bought this at 80 million. Will you buy it for 30? That's what's happening right now. It's significant. You're not seeing it hit the books. You're not seeing it hit Cracks or Loopnet. It's not even going out there. The big players like the Grant Cardones. I know some people that watch this right now are going to be like, "Grant's not the biggest player." I get it. But we know who Grant is. So, I got to reference Grant. Grant is smart. He's got all these relationships with brokers and banks that are bringing him deals off the books. That's not for the everyday investor. The everyday investor has no access to those that deal flow. Which is why somebody would invest with Grant Cardone 100 grand for example because they don't have access to that broker or that bank and that bank would never trust that individual investor to buy that deal in the first place. So in the traditional world, I don't even think that's even an opportunity for the everyday investor. It's not even remotely close to an opportunity. >> So what should the everyday investor do today if they want to deploy their money? They want the highest chance of success. >> Okay. >> Include stock market, Bitcoin, just just if anything out there. Someone has money. >> I'm not a stock guy. I feel like you're I think you're you're betting on some other man's decisions. >> Do you own any stocks? >> Zero. >> Zero money in stocks. >> Why would I? >> What about gold? >> I have no gold. >> Bitcoin. >> I have 15 Bitcoin. >> Why not more Bitcoin? >> I don't know. I feel like that's a lot of I feel like that's pretty decent. It's more than most people. What they say like if you own one Bitcoin, you're like better than 99% of people. So, I've got 15 Bitcoin, >> but where did I buy my Bitcoin? That's the better question. >> Did I go and put money into Bitcoin like a like a knucklehead? >> Did you creatively finance the Bitcoin? >> No, I I have not I have not figured out twice the value for the Bitcoin financed 0%. >> So, dollar cost averaging, which is something Graham talks about all the time. Where does that money come from? That money comes from people's paychecks, right? And so what they're doing is they're at their 9 to5 job and they're like, "Okay, I got this little sliver, 100 bucks, 200 bucks, whatever it is, and I'm going to dollar cost average into this Bitcoin." Okay, so you're going to take after tax dollars that you earned and put it into a gamble. Bitcoin is a gamble at the end of the day. Real estate's a gamble. It's all a gamble. Okay, what I'd rather do is I'd rather go get a property, co-l livingiving, RV park, whatever it may be. I'd rather go get a property with no money, let the cash flow, then buy the Bitcoin. And that is why I only own 15 Bitcoin because I take a percentage of my free cash flow and I buy Bitcoin with it. I do not take active income and buy Bitcoin with it. That's crazy. >> So, if we're talking for fair and so now, if we're talking in terms of the average person, how can they take advantage of the current market conditions to make a lot of money? >> Couple of things. Um, if you don't own a house, I would go to creativelisting.com and go buy a sub two house and stop renting because I don't agree. >> But isn't that going to be too competitive? Like, aren't there probably going to be tons of listings on there that everyone's bit bidding up? And how are you going to actually get a good deal? >> Interesting, Jack. That is such a great question. These houses are locked in at price. Hey, pay me this. The house is yours. That's it. We're not This is not like a regular retail listing thing. These are wholesalers that found a sub two deal. They just go, "Pay me a five or $10,000 fee. The house is yours." There's no bidding up type of thing. People are naming a price and they're buying the deal. That's it. But good question. Um, so if you don't own your house, I think you should own a house. You and I disagree on this. I think you should own a house because I think if you are relying on somebody going, "Hey, go rent the house." By the way, Jack, I'll get to your question. Hey, go buy the hy, rent, and then take that difference and go and invest it. People won't do it. They're just not going to do it. If they were, they would have already been investing already. >> Maybe they are. >> Maybe. doubtful, right? Look at the look look at the statistics of how little people are actually investing. First and foremost, what do they what is it? 60% of Americans can't even like survive paycheck to paycheck. Like that's the significant problem. The problem is the lack of income that I would even have to invest in. They can't even afford to rent first and foremost. But let's say that I'm not that 60%. Let's say I'm Jack, right? The average guy. He has some income. He has a decent job. He knows what he's doing. He's a little bit savvy. Especially watches Ice Coffee Hour. I think lending is a really great place. You've got excess cash. I would go and lend money on other people's deals. The problem is you now have to learn a skill, right? The skill is I have to learn how to underwrite or I have to learn how to trust somebody. Not a Graham Stefen strong point. You're not you're definitely not going to be trusting people. >> So, I think lending is really good. It's powerful because I don't have to go find the deal, develop the deal, deal with contractors, but I can make money on that project. If that makes sense. I like that. Um, the other thing I would do is why not jump into Well, this is a good one. Do you guys know what fractional.com is? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Fractional.com is really cool. Fractional is where I can invest as little as $5,000 in somebody else's real estate transaction that they found, they negotiated, they're developing, they're doing whatever. I would go put $5,000 in somebody else's project. What's cool about fractional is that a nonacredited investor can go invest as little as 5,000 bucks in it. But you are a member of a club, which means I get to make decisions. I see how the project is unfolding and I get a full education while I'm investing in the deal. I, as an LP, limited partner, I don't like investing as an LP if I'm not getting an education. So, for me, I like fractional because I can put as little as 5,000 bucks in. I can get a 10, 15, 20% return on my money. Meanwhile, I'm getting educated on the deal. >> Seems like with this whole club structure, >> this guy's >> Wouldn't this be a great way to get around rent control? Like technically if a property is rent controlled, you say, "Hey, you pay you're be the only member of this club." >> Yeah. So we're talking about and now we're going to pads split. So yeah, I I agree with you. Keep going. Padsplit is the club that gets around Yeah. residential rentals. Yeah. >> So theoretically, if I have a a unit that's rent controlled, >> Yeah. >> I set up a club. >> Mhm. >> And then I say the club is $1,500 a month and there's no cap to how much I can increase the membership of that club after a year. Yeah. The perk of that club, you get to live in this house. >> Great. Love it. I'd do that. >> And there's no >> rent control. If if you were to raise the club membership, >> you know, I wonder then if you also don't have a lease agreement, if you could kick them out, you know, without getting a squatter situation, >> you get 30 days notice on the the club membership expire. >> What I would do for those of you guys that are listening, what >> it's always >> see the lawyers would argue intent. They would say you had the intention of getting around a lease agreement and therefore that is null and void. >> They've so Padsplit's already done this. They've been in court. They've won multiple times. Guys, I would look this up, padsplit.com. I don't get paid to promote it at all, but everybody in my community is using Padsplit nationwide, even in like Puerto Rico and Canada and stuff. They've gotten around it. They have not been beat up at all. I mean, they've been through court and they've won every case, but you're right, they do get around rent control. And then when I said this earlier, I said people in your audience are not going to like this answer. Let's say that I live in a neighborhood right now. Here's here's the biggest problem in real estate right now. If I'm a real estate agent, I'm getting my butt kicked really, really bad. And if I am looking at the resident, let's look residential real estate right now. We know the commercial problem. The commercial problem is people's loans are going default. 99% of people will never have the opportunity to invest in that. Sorry guys. People go, how do I invest? You don't. You either go to Grant Cardone and give him some of your money because he has access to those deals or you don't invest because you'll never see those deals. Or Ken Maroy and Robert Kiyosaki. They're raising money, too. But the residential world, what is going on? What's going on is days on market are climbing like crazy. What does that mean? Real estate agents are under pressure. They can't sell these houses. Why can't they sell houses? Well, because interest rates are high. And you could make an argument that houses are high, too. I get it. >> Interest rates are high, so people are not buying. They're also unsure of what's going on with tariffs. They're unsure of what's going on. People are afraid. They're sk afraid of their own shadow. So, they're like, I'm not going to buy. So, sellers are having a hard time selling, which results in what? Here's what it results in. 15,000 expired listings a day. What's an expired listing, Jack? >> It's when do you relist it, right? Or you take it down. >> It means when the seller fires the real estate agent after 6 months of not being able to sell the house. >> Now, how isn't that number though the same as what it was in 2018 and 19? >> Expired listings. No, they're way up. Way, way up. It's 300,000 expired listings a month is are happening right now in the United States. So, what does that do for somebody like me? I'm not calling real estate agents and saying, "Hey, I want to work a deal." I call the seller who just fired the agent. That's an opportunity for me, right? There's places for me to operate in this world where I call the seller and I go, "Hey, seller, you've been listed on the market. My name is Pace. I'm a buyer. I'm not an agent. I'd like to make an offer on your house today, but I'd like you to I'd like to ask if you'd let me take over your payments." We get a yes out of 20% of those calls. Okay? Now, whether that's a good deal or not is a different conversation, but 20% of those calls, we're getting a yes. That's pretty freaking powerful, right? The market is is available right now for people to make a ton of money if you're taking that house and not doing a regular rental with it. Regular rentals are hard to cash flow right now. Almost impossible. You're also not going to have a good time doing Airbnb. Air, nobody's traveling. You're also going to have a hard time doing midterm rental. Do you know what that is? >> Okay, so like traveling nurses, pilots, stuff like that, insurance things. Midterm rental is kind of saturated. The one thing that's growing is Sacramento just came out with this. This might be a good video for you to put on your YouTube channel. There are now municipalities like Denver and Sacramento that are putting grant programs together for investors to do more co-living, which is the get around the rent control situation. They're putting money and they're changing legislation to make that a thing. So, what's going to ultimately happen is these houses and these neighborhoods that people are not selling their houses, you know what's happening? Six and seven resident or tenants are moving into these single family homes. that is happening right now. Now, whether people like that or not, that investors look at the marketplace and they go, there's a problem. Lack of affordable rent and houses are not selling. How can I capitalize on that? A good investor will look at every single market and pivot. That is what's happening right now. So, people that are not Ben Molly that are buying hotels and doing whatever he's doing, smart, one of the smartest guys ever, love him. But in the single family world, what are they doing? How are they pivoting? Airbnb is not working. They got to make money. They're going after expired listings, buying them with creative finance, and they're turning those properties into pad splits and renting them out by the room. They're avoiding HOA, so your neighborhood is safe. But any other area in um Okay, so this is great. I did a tour like 3 weeks ago in Vegas, and I went and saw like 30 pads splits in Vegas. They have a dedicated rep from Padsplit just in Vegas because there's so many co-living going on in in Vegas. That is where the opportunity in single family is right now. What's the best deal that you've seen in the last year? >> Best deal I've seen that I've bought or best deal I've seen that you've seen. >> Um, best deal I've seen is I had a student of mine assign a deal for $600,000. So, he didn't even have to buy the deal. He just assigned it to another buyer for $600,000. I've got a student named Don who bought a assisted living facility in Philadelphia. Um, raised $8 million for it, turned into a hotel, refinanced it like $30 million bucks, and made $20 million in like 18 months. Like those are crazy deals that happen. Um, but they happen all the time, right? You ran into a weird deal. Imagine, Jack, if you were actually looking for deals all day long, you'd find a weird deal every day. >> So, where are the best places to look for deals? >> Um, okay. So, best places to look for deal, definitely not Zillow. Where should I go to find a deal? If I want to find a deal, I would go to a Are you okay if I tell a website that I don't make money on, but it costs money? Mhm. Okay. There's a company called dealsauce.io io that I can just click click click find all the foreclosures. dealsauce.io. Again, I don't make money on that. Dealsauce.io. I can f find foreclosures, probates, inheritance. I can find um expired listings, long days on market. I can find people want to sell and owner finance. I can find anything that I want on DealSauce within like 20 seconds. And within two clicks of a button, I'm sending all of those sellers a message saying, "Hey, I'm looking to buy your house." Like, it's that easy nowadays. >> Can you creative finance anything? Like, what's the craziest thing that you financed? Um, I ju I'm buying right now a $500,000 motor coach because I'm doing a tour across America to like help homeless people and do something cool. So, I'm buying a motor coach with no money down. I just bought a plane with no money down. I don't know if you guys saw that on my channel, but um I have a student that buys 300 planes. Here's what he's doing. He's going after planes that are like forgotten about. People are dying. You know, people are inheriting these little planes in these little municipal airports. He's buying them on seller finance and he's turning around and he's leasing them to training schools. We're the number one country in the world for training for like pilot programs. So all these Asian company or countries are coming in here and sending their pilots to learn from us. >> Those training schools need um planes. And so he leases those to I mean you can do anything with creative finance. It's the craziest thing on the planet. I'm trying to buy a plane or a train cuz I want to be able to say planes, trains, and automobiles cuz half my cars I own are all creative finance. And I'm like, if I could get a train and I could put it on my farm, I'd turn turn into like a bed and breakfast and I'd get a train on creative finance. The one thing I haven't done yet. >> Now, a lot of people are looking for ways to add stability to their financial plan, especially with all the uncertainty. That is where physical gold and silver comes in. Just this year, the dollar has dropped 9% while gold is up 25%. Even if you're not watching the market daily, those fluctuations could have a very big difference on what your savings is actually worth. Our sponsor, Noble Gold Investments, helps you take control of that by giving you the option to buy real physical gold and silver or even roll part of your IRA or 401k into precious metals. It's not about betting on gold. It's about having something tangible that holds its value. And Noble Gold makes that process easy. You get a dedicated specialist, clear pricing, and they even have a guaranteed buyback program. So, if you've been thinking about including gold or silver as part of your financial plan, now could be a great time to check it out. Just head to noblegoldinvestments.com/icistic to learn more or schedule a free consultation. Again, that is noblegoldinvestments.com/ic with the link down below in the description. Now, when Jack and I started the Ice Coffee Hour, we had to figure out everything ourselves. From the best cameras to use, the best editing equipment, how to get guests. It adds up fast. Every day was a new challenge. That's why if you're starting off your own business, you know how valuable today's sponsor is, and that would be Shopify. Shopify is basically your all-in-one business partner. They power millions of businesses worldwide, from major brands like Mattel and Gym Shark to entrepreneurs just getting started. Fun fact, if you've shopped online in the US, there's a really good chance it was through Shopify because they power about 10% of all American e-commerce. What's great about Shopify is that they give you access to a complete design studio with hundreds of readytouse templates to build a beautiful online store that perfectly matches your brand. There's no coding needed, and their AI tools even help you write product descriptions or enhance your product photos. Shopify also makes marketing extremely easy with simple email and social campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling. Plus, they handle literally everything from inventory to shipping to returns. Basically, all of the complicated stuff you do not want to deal with. So, if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business ideas into So, sign up for a $1 per month trial at shopify.com/ic. That is shopify.com/ic with the link down below in the description if you just want to click it there. Guys, it is $1 per month. We've had so many guests on this podcast that have had million-dollar Shopify stores. I've had a Shopify store. Graham's had a Shopify store. It is $1 per month to get this trial with the link down below in the description. I highly recommend it. >> Thank you again to our sponsor, Shopify. And now, let's get back to the podcast. So, if we're going to talk then about the overall economy over the next few years, the Trump economy, do you have any predictions in terms of of rates or tariffs or just overall cost of living or or national debt? >> Yeah, national debt's going to get way worse. Cost of living is going to get way worse. Trump is not going to solve that problem. They're going to print more money. I mean, look at the big beautiful bill. It's amazing for who? Who's it amazing for? >> Real estate investors. >> Me. Like, I it is good for me and all of Trump's buddies. Um, I think that people that understand the game and they know how to ride the wave are going to ride the wave and the people that are not are going to complain that the waves are too high. That's what's going to continue to happen. And people are going to sit on the sidelines and and what I'm actually fearful of, I'm curious about your guys' um opinions about this. I think in five to seven years, you look at like truck drivers, are truck drivers going to be around in seven years in any significant way? Okay. So, how many people work in truck driving? Lots. 7 million people are in truck driving. 7 million between driving and logistics in 7 years. 10% of those people have a job. 10%. So you're looking at 610 6 million 100,000 people are going to lose their jobs in trucking. Where are they going to go? Electrical and plumbing and landscaping. Like I'm more worried right now about UBI and what the government's going to have to do with these people than I am about anything else. And so people look at like what's happening in the next two years. Bro, what's happening in 5 years right now? and what do I need to own to benefit from it? So, for me, I might be a doomsdayer, but I'm focusing primarily on affordable housing and I think that UBI is going to be a significant thing. I think universal basic income is going to keep is the only way to keep people surviving. >> So, when you say affordable housing, do you just mean like cheaper units? >> Cheaper units, thousand bucks a month or less is affordable housing. >> Who's most at risk of AI? >> Um, okay. Everybody. I mean my as much as I look at even my own team right 300 employees and I have other companies I have hundreds of employees I look at them and I go I want to keep my team well the problem is my competitors are not so how can I I I'm basically my hand is being forced to say well I have seven people doing this job great a great example I own a company out of the Philippines 5 years ago I had an um an offer to buy it for $10 million it's a cold call center out of the Philippines >> physical human beings 300 people. We had an offer to buy it for 10 million. We turned it down. >> I can't even sell it for a million dollars today. Why? >> Automated. >> No. Everybody looks at that. So 300 people in the Philippines are going to lose their job because there's companies like I'm sure you've maybe had some guests on here, but there's companies like Prop.ai. >> Like prop as in like property >> that does all the cold calling for you. Here's what Prop.AI will do. Think about 300 people in the Philippines that are doing cold calling and customer service. What their job is for a real estate investor is what? They do the cold calling and they set the appointment for somebody like me to talk to a seller or let's say a real estate agent to negotiate a good deal. If prop.ai is $1,000 a month, it outperforms 15 human beings that are $1,000 a month each in the Philippines. So that's $15,000 cost. Yes, you can get a whole Filipino for $1,000 a month, like full-time employee. So $15,000 a month. Prop.ai outperforms those 15. What do you think's going to happen? Everybody's losing their jobs and where are they going to go? What are they going to do? >> That's my question to you. What do you guys think is going to happen with all these employees that are going to lose their jobs? >> I think people are either going to pivot and have to find work elsewhere or >> like what? That's the question. >> I don't know. But that's kind of the question that people had, you know, when we were inventing things like the cotton gin and other, you know, the printing press and obviously this is on a much larger scale. But I also think that people had no idea, >> you know, where these people would go. I do if I wasn't like t you know tilling corn >> and exactly and we just thank God he didn't have to till corn though right >> I don't know man >> we would have been low yield >> some low yield >> he'd be counting every single grain of corn >> exactly making it sure to charge for every >> What about you Graham what do you think is what do you think is going to happen with all these people that are going to lose their jobs I think it's inevitable it's already happening >> also I do think UBI will do agree with UBI I do think so yeah okay I agree with UBI so who benefits from UBI probably. Yeah. You, me, the sellers. No, not the sellers. The people who own the real estate. Because let's say that I have 161 units and they're all affordable around $1,000 a month and the UBI certificate where they they basically pay your rents. Very similar to section 8. >> I have su section 8 is really funny. People go into like Ohio and Iowa and they do the section A stuff like they're doing like they're impacting the world. I do section super section 8 which means I'm not touching a prop. I'm not going to do any section 8 unless I can do 24 of them at the same time. So I can go get a 24 unit, put all of those people into that property. All of them are section 8. What have I now done? I've built a moat around myself for the future. So UBI or section 8 or HUDVASH programs, they're going to pay that. So for me, I'm good. What I worry about, you don't have kids yet, Graham. Jack, I know you're going to have three kids. What are you going to tell your kids to do? I got a one-year-old boy. What do I tell my little boy to do? Well, Pace, you have plenty of money. He doesn't have to work. Is that what I want my kid to do? What does my kid do to provide value to the marketplace to find a sense of purpose? That's a bigger worry I have. >> I don't know. I think if you give the people the right resources and proper education, they'll be able to find their own way. >> I think I think there's going to crop up other opportunities that we just don't think of today. There's going to be something else that needs to be solved. >> Am I I'm a denier. I'm like a climate den denier or something. I I don't think this is going to happen. I think >> you don't think opportunity will arise. >> I think there will, but I think that the mass amount of people that are going to lose their jobs like I I some of my friends and guests you've had on the show, I see them talking about buying businesses go into the home services. Okay, so I see people going and buying roof companies. Okay, have you seen Rufus, the robot that's replacing roof roofs? R UF, guys, go look it up. And I go, so I see all these people buying roofing companies thinking they're going to build a moat around themselves. Meanwhile, robots are already replacing roofs right now. >> But if that's the case, then you could replace most things. Doctors, accountants, delivery, could be drones. I mean, there's so many things that you could replace. >> It would decrease the cost of living. >> It would decrease the cost of living, but it would also allow people to move further out from cities and that you don't need to be in Los Angeles anymore. You could be an hour and a half, 2 hours away, kind of in the middle of nowhere. the average person, right? >> You guys met the average person. Are they going to No, he's not the average person. He's like one of the smartest people on the planet. >> Us three are not the average person, right? We're just not. >> I get to meet the average person all the time. I go on road trips. I go to meetups. I actually talk to the people that have like real significant worries and I meet them face to face. I smell the breath of the taco they ate. That's how close I am to them. You take all of this away from them, they will not go and create a pathway for them. >> Yeah. But you don't think they would move an hour and a half outside of the city? I think the cost of living is I think they'll be forced. But but you're going to have autonomous cars and the cost of living is going to be so low compared to where it would be today because of technology that I think >> you know what I love about you guys. You and I very rarely agree to anything. >> I I think like we agree on a lot. >> We agree on a lot to disagree. >> But but on stuff like this we do not. Yeah. I tend to think and this is what we've seen I feel like from a policy perspective is the more rules and regulations and just things that happen in the world the stronger of a divide it will just naturally create between those who have the capacity to provide a lot of value versus those who do not have the capacity to provide a lot capacity means mental physical or what >> mental or physical or you know whatever >> access information someone information is easier than ever. Now >> the problem is like okay so for example >> it's it's everything I threw out a bunch of websites right today like creative listing or prop or whatever I threw out most of your audience have never heard of those before even though they're a thumb click away. >> I've never heard of them >> right and so you look at this and a whole entire like hundreds of thousands of people are making millions of dollars off of those things in a completely different sector than like Ben Mala is. >> So how does somebody even know that those things exist? Just because it's there doesn't mean I know how to >> Yeah. Now they do because they have YouTube on their phone. >> Yeah, that's that's very true. Okay, so I agree, but I don't think many people are actually going to go and search for the information. I think most people will sit and be lazy. >> I tend to agree with you a little bit >> in terms of that. >> Yeah, but that should amp people up that the bar is so low. >> But the thing is that their life has gotten so easy. People People will hate me for this, but I look at it and I go, "Look, you can either be the 90% that hide their head in the sand, or you can be the 10% of people that take advantage of the 90% that hide their head in the sand." Like, think about this. The government's going to have to pay for UBI. Let's say 15% of the population. I think in the next 10, 15 years, 15% of already, what is it? I think it's like 30% of the population relies on government assistance. 30% right now. Right. In 10 years, you don't think UBI is going to be at 10 15%. And I think you and I agree to this. I don't know if you do. Do you agree with UBI? >> Okay. >> Yeah. I I I think we get rid of social security and we just do UBI. I would love that. >> I like this. I like this, Graham. This is a great idea. So, who benefits from that are people that understand how to put themselves in the situation to benefit from that. And although it's accessible and they could learn from me, they could learn from your podcast. People go just tell me what to do and I'll then do it. They won't go do the work. 90% of people will not go do the work that's required because people have gotten soft. Do we agree with that? I think life has just gotten very nice. And I said this one time and people didn't like it. But I I think that someone that's struggling and not doing well financially, just in a bad spot in their life, their life is still like 35 to 40% the same life as Leonardo DiCaprio. And the reason I say that is because they both sleep for eight hours maybe. and they both spend a lot of time on TikTok and on YouTube and watching the news and doing those things. And then sure, there's the 60% of their life where like the other person, you know, they're working at their job and they're like struggling to get by. And then the other 60% of Leonardo Caprio is like with a hundred women that are a little questionably young. Like there's it's very different lives, but still I think that like the lives of the poor people are no longer completely different than the lives of the the welloff like they used to be. What's the quot the quote is uh hard men create good times, good times create soft men, soft men create hard times, hard times and and so forth. We're in the cycle right now where hard where soft people are creating hard times, right? I believe now I think that there's a world of UBI and things are getting easier and they're printing money and those people will just gravitate to that. How many properties do you plan on buying over the next year? Um, so my buy box, if you go to pacesbybox.com, you can see exactly what I'm buying and when I'm buying because so many people send me deals. pacesbybox.com. I buy four RV parks a year, one big multif family property per year. Again, this is all creative finance, so I'm not doing what Grant is doing. Like, people will compare me to Grant going, Grant's buying $300 million in real estate this year. I'm like, I'm not doing what Grant's doing. I'm not Grant. Um, so four RV parks a year, couple of mobile home parks a year, one big multif family a year, and then I'll buy I'm way slower on single family than I used to be. Um, I'm buying maybe 10 single family properties only in Phoenix, Arizona, turning those all into co-l livingiving. That's that's what I do. And how are you able to buy property so much faster than everyone else? >> Creative finance. Think about it. You eliminate the bank. You eliminate the appraiser. You eliminate the inspection. You eliminate the real estate agent. You eliminate every single credit requirement involved. >> What's the most you've ever got burned on a creative finance deal? >> I've never been burned on a creative finance deal. >> Not once. >> Not one time. >> There's not one time where you've like had to put money out of pocket. >> Oh yeah. I've had deals where like um and I have some in my portfolio. This is why I tell people do not buy single family homes like regular rentals for cash flow. Buy them for appreciation and plan to hold on for a long time. Um, I have properties that had a pool repair that were $20,000 and they basically took all my war chest. Like, I've had that stuff happen. >> So, what could take you out? >> What could take me out? Um, okay. So, what could take me out is my tenants inability to pay rent across the board. Like, let's say we had like an Armageddon situation and everybody loses their ability to make income. The government's not printing um money. Nobody's getting like social security or um section 8. You take section 8 out. You take social security. you take some of these things out, I h probably half of my tenants wouldn't be able to pay their rent. So, the government would have to basically shut down. >> Aren't they doing that to a certain degree already? Like, I've seen throughout Los Angeles County in California, >> there are so many restrictions and caps on what a landlord is able to charge. They just recently implemented that all landlords now in California must provide air conditioning and keep their units below 82° at their hottest. and they're mandating that every landlord now buy an air conditioner or retrofit air conditioning in their properties. >> Yeah, >> they're mandating that landlords pay for this out of pocket. My argument is that if the government mandates something, there should be a rebate or incentive for landlords to provide this. But they're basically blanket statementing everyone has to do this now. >> Yeah. >> And your rent cap has to be this and if your tenant doesn't pay, they get, you know, two months before you could give them this notice and all these things. Isn't the government already cracking down on on landlords or property owners? >> Yeah. I mean, you look at like rent control in Denver. You look at uh so I choose to go after strategies that don't require that. So, think about this. Like, if I own an RV park, which I can buy with Creative Finance, >> do I have a landlord tenant situation? >> No. >> No. Cuz they're renting my dirt and they're in their own vehicle which is on wheels, right? So, I have moved and pivoted towards first and foremost, I'm not buying in LA. A lot of my students do. I have like 700 students there, but they're localized. because they understand the laws. I don't understand the LA laws. So, I wouldn't buy in LA. That's not my buy box. But I do agree with you. I think they are they are cracking down. I think the scariest one is Denver and just rent control because if you are rent controlling a unit yet property values are let's say I'm a traditional real estate investor and I buy a property, I put a bunch of money in it and then they cap my ability to raise my rents. I understand. I think most of your audience is business-minded. So they're not the I think they're more landlord thinking than tenant thinking. Even if they are tenants, they understand the business dynamic between the two. I think it's definitely a scary landscape. I think that that's not going to stop. I think it's going to get way worse. >> Yeah. >> What are the best areas to buy in? >> Um so the Have you guys heard about the U-Haul index? >> No. >> What? >> So uh U-Haul index shows you where everybody's migrating, where they're moving. So like North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas. Um, I am actually slowing down on my Texas just because property taxes are crazy. Insurance is crazy. Florida, I'm exiting a bunch of my ex my Florida properties right now. I'm 1031ing in stuff outside uh hurricane. Actually, you know what the biggest risk of my Florida real estate is? Are insurance doorners. Like, this is something that govern uh Governor uh what's his name? Des Santos. >> Des Santos. um he's cracking down on these insurance company or these door knockers that are roof guys are going and knocking on doors saying I can get you a new roof. I can get you a new roof. And they're just freaking raking these insurance companies over the coal. So what are the insurance companies doing? They're raising their rates significantly. Like I had a property in West Palm Beach. We raise rents like 400 bucks. Insurance goes up 300 bucks. It's like I'm I can barely outpace my insurance in Florida. So, there are certain markets that I stay out of that um I'm starting a 1031 out of if I'm in single family, but if you're in like mobile uh let's say mobile home parks or you're in RV parks, you can do RV parks anywhere in the country and not have any landlord tenant issues if that makes sense. So, I'm I love North Carolina, South Carolina. I love Georgia. Arizona is awesome. Vegas is freaking phenomenal. It will always be Vegas will always be really really good. Um outside of that, everything else is kind of hit or miss. I'm just curious, how much debt do you have? >> I have probably near $400 million in debt, something like that. >> Does that keep you up at night ever? >> No. >> Does that bother you at all? >> No. Like, do you have a car payment? >> No. >> That's lunacy. But you have a car. You don't have a car pay. You dude, you I'm talking to the wrong audience. Holy crap. >> Here's the thing. Here's what you're trying to say. >> Yeah. >> When you're a million dollars in debt, it's your problem. When you're 400 million in debt, the other person's problem. It's the bank's problem. Um, >> so let's let's talk about this. How much in assets do you have? >> Uh, my total portfolio, including businesses and real estate, is like 500 million. >> Okay. And so now, let's just say, would you would you notice a substantial lifestyle difference if you just had $100 million free and clear without any debt versus having $500 million with $400 million in debt? Yeah, I'm sure I would. But also, I'm not a solo operator, right? Like I have a team. And so at some point, you have a responsibility that I grow so that my team can also retire. That's a duty that I provide, right? One of the biggest things about like the big beautiful tax bill that Trump just released. It incentivizes business owners like me to go and hire people and actually create jobs. So if I'm sitting there going, it's all about me. Let me take my $100 million off the table, dude. Like really, what am I gonna do with an extra hundred million dollars of just cash sitting in the bank? Dude, like that's not my personality. That might be your personality and we can be friends, but I'm I want to go build an empire and I want for example, I've got shout out to Molly, Shelley, Kelly, Heidi, all these girls that are on my team that rely on me to provide jobs to them. It's not just about jobs. It's also where are they in 5 years and 10 years? Can they retire from putting their time and their energy into my business? As of right now, I would say probably not. I want to grow to a point. So what I do with my girls is um most of them most of the people on my team are female run team. Um those girls get 20% of every asset I buy. So I go buy an asset, they get 20% ownership over time that appreciates. Why do you hire mostly women? >> I come from a family of eight eight girls in my family. Eight girls, three four boys. And I just I think I just do better with women that are care about Oh, here's a good an even better answer. People will say I'm a bad leader when I give you this answer, but every time I hire a highle man, they just want to come and steal my business. They come in and hi, they go, I want to come build this thing. I want to come do this thing. They come in and they just infiltrate and they get all the secrets. They do all the thing and then six months later, they're competing against me. I've never had that with a woman. Never once. So, for me, I think by default, I just they men are all about me me. Women typically, not all of them, are we we we we. How do we win? How do we do this? They care about the customer more. Right? Maybe I'm a weirdo, but if you go into a dental office, do you want to be talking to a guy or a girl? Be honest. Don't lie. Don't give me some [ __ ] Give me the truth. >> They're all women, though. I mean, let's >> They are all women. They're all women. That's true. So, I don't know. I've never really had to. I wonder why. I wonder why it's all men. >> Yes, you have, Jack. >> Yeah, you have. >> You're telling me about that. >> But why why do you think that is? >> Even women prefer to deal with women at the front counter. It's a it's if it's broad across the business spectrum, is it just that that >> you know what, but women overall have better people skills? So that's >> there you go. And if I'm raising money or I'm I'm lending money and I'm a customer servicef facing business, don't you think I would rather default to somebody who's more >> nurturing? But but don't men have better sales skills. >> Men are better closers. Women are better with people. >> I think they're more aggressive if that's what you want. I'm not an aggressive closer. I don't have to close anybody in my rental port. Like who am I closing? You either like the unit or you don't like the unit. You like the press. if you don't like the price, if you don't buy. And so those girls don't have to sell or close anybody on anything. And also like my lending business, Heather and Jade, the girls that run my he my lending business, those girls are so good at building relationships that this is why I'd rather have a female in this role. A guy is trying to close close. Heather and Jade will build a relationship with my borrower that even if my borrower finds a a lender at 1% less or 2% less, they will have a relationship with Heather and Jade and they'll go, "I'd rather just use Heather and Jade. They're reliable. I like them. There's loyalty there." Women are better at building loyalty between your customer and your company. >> So, what do you think is holding so many people back today? >> Great question, Graham. If I could talk about this for hours, I think the So, I'm going on this big tour right now. I think it's gonna be like the last tour I do. And I stress out about this exact problem because it's like if I could invent one pill, it would be to the take action, stop being in analysis paralysis mode pill. And so like the Maddie story, the homeless lady, what I did and the reason why I helped her is I'm like, if I could document this and give away the video content, maybe that would finally push people over to believe they could do it, too. Then when I was doing the content, this is crazy. So, as I was talking about Maddie on my Instagram, I haven't released anything on YouTube yet, but people go, "Well, yeah, she's homeless, so you know, I'm not homeless, so that doesn't apply to me." I'm like, "What the freak are you talking about? She literally has every disadvantage on the planet, and you just need somebody to like literally hold your physical hand." I think that is one of the biggest things is people are like, "Just tell me what to do." So, in this book, I'm writing a book called um Start Here. And start here is like everybody in my DMs goes, "Where do I start?" And so I want to give them a book that says start here. Right? So I've got Maddie, homeless lady. I've got a single mom. Um husband passed away. I'm about to help her starting on Monday. Father with three jobs juggling like bunch of kids. I've got a kid um flipping hamburgers that doesn't want to go to college. A wounded veteran, somebody who's doing side hustles for a living to survive. And then I've got um uh an immigrant, somebody who just like immigrated to the United States that doesn't even have a social security yet. And these are the seven people I constantly run into that say, I it's impossible for me to be successful. It's impossible. So this book I'm writing is me going to these people, physically helping them, documenting every journey. I give them this the blueprint and then they take the action. I'm not doing the work for them. Like Maddie, the homeless lady, I did not do anything for her except show her the way. I record all of this stuff and I'm going to give it to the world and be like, "Here you go." Like here's hopefully that magic pill, but Graham, I think you know better than anybody else. Somebody will make a comment in your YouTube comments about some video you did. They'll make a comment in the active video >> and act as if you didn't make a video that answered that question two weeks ago. Have you ever experienced that? >> All the time. >> People are so unresourceful. So, it's like they need people to spoon feed them or hold their hand. And so, I'm trying to build that um in the real estate space through a book and then I'm doing a tour. So, starting in November, I'll be on the road for 125 days where I'm going, "All right, I'm going to prove that you you can do this in Canada, and I can prove in every major city, I'm going to go do what I promise I can do in 3 hours or less." So, what I'm doing is starting in November. Um, and you guys want to see the tour dates, it's whereispace.com. I'm going to find somebody in that city that's a single mom, a dad with two jobs, a veteran, a whatever, one of these core people. And I then have a shot clock. I have 3 hours to help them get a deal. That's it. And I do that 125 days in a row to prove that people can do it. I'm documenting it, giving it away. And you know what'll happen? People will watch the content and still not do anything about it. I don't know the answer to that. I wish I had a magic pill. I wish somebody could figure that out. Um I I we did a survey that like 99% of people watching YouTube content don't ever do anything with the content they learn. They take notes. This is great. But then they don't do anything, right? Do you do you have an answer for that? Why people why you think people don't take action? >> Dave Ramsey says it's because they don't believe the result. They don't have faith that they'll get a result if they followed it. >> I think it's even one step further be beyond that. I think that that's definitely true. Dave is like very very smart guy. I think it's also they don't deserve the result. I think there's like selfesteem issues, imposttor syndrome, fear of success. Nobody in my world made millions of dollars, so that's not possible for me. So, I see people go take action, right? Like, I'm not talking about like my community, but people in my YouTube audience go, "Hey, I tried the thing." And they will purposely go out of their way to like prove to themselves they can't do it. They'll self-sabotage. And I think it's a belief system. I like that. I like what Dave said. They don't believe the result is possible for them. And then even if it is possible for them, they feel like they don't deserve it. >> I'm curious for the education business. Are you making good money teaching people how to do this? >> I'm not an educator. I I the way I would look at it is people go, "Do you have a mentorship program?" "No, I don't have a mentorship program. Do you have coaching? Do you have um like a course?" I all my courses I give away for free. What I do is I have like a pri I have a private community kind of like a country club of real estate that you join one time and you're in for life. I make a lot of money from doing that. I bought $100 million in real estate from them last year. So, I make a lot of money from them. The cost to be a coach, like do you guys see all the coaches like quitting right now? >> No. Oh, it's true. It's like like Oh, yeah. You're not in that space. Most coaches and mentors that are like selling information have all kind of gone away in real estate. >> I don't sell coaching. I don't send sell mentorships. I have a paid community for sure, but I do deals with those people and that's where I make my money. So, like Gordon, the guy who watched us, um I'll probably buy 10 deals with Gordon this year and he'll make he made on the last deal I did with Gordon, he made $22,500 bringing the deal to me, but I'll make hundreds of thousands on one deal with Gordon. So yes, I do make a lot of money with my students. >> When did you first feel rich? >> Um I have Stver's curse. I don't think I feel rich right now. I feel like that I have more. I feel You ever do this where you're like, I've done all these things on my YouTube channel. People come to you and they say, "Graham, you've inspired me. You've changed my life." And you're like, "I feel like I haven't done anything yet." Do you ever feel like that? >> Less lately. >> Okay. But you have felt that? >> Yeah, I felt that. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, like you hear other people say you're successful and you're doing all this stuff, but I think you maybe have felt in these moments that you haven't accomplished what you feel like is possible for you. You haven't done the thing that you felt like you you were setting out to do. And so, I feel like I have a lot less a lot more gas in the tank. Plus, you hang out with guys like Ken Maroy, right? Like Robert Kiyosaki's partner. And you hang out with that guy. Here's what's really cool about Ken. You guys got to have him on the podcast. These guys give away a million dollars a month in charity. Like I feel like the reason you should do well is so you can do good. And when you look at a guy like Ken Maroy and Robert Kiosaki, nobody talks about that cuz it's not like viral worthy. But Ken Moy has a full-time position in his office called the philanthropy coordinator. They literally give a million dollars away to philanthropy every month. So when I look at people like that and I hang out with them, I'm like, I'm not doing enough. >> Yeah. >> I need to be doing that. Would you say that money buys happiness? >> Uh, yeah. I think so. If you can go and write a check for $10,000 to a charity or $5,000 to a charity, I think there's a dopamine dopamine fix there that makes you go, I earned that money by providing value to other people. I deserve that money now. I feel great that I can go give that. So, yeah, dopamine is is that happiness. >> And what are the highest ROI things then for happiness if you're spending money? Um, having a beautiful house for your children to run around in and a pool that they can swim in is the greatest ROI I've ever had. >> That's good. Jack is building a pool. >> Yeah. >> So, he's one step closer. >> I'm chipping out and replastering my pool right now. It's like $75,000. And which goes to your agree your argument of like you should be renting because I would have my landlord fix that pool instead. Right. >> But I look at that 75 grand that I'm that pool is like 15 years old so it's due. But I look at that, I'm like that is by far the best money I've ever spent is having my kids. I mean, you've heard Elon say it. Go have more kids. You're on your way. Four kids. Go do it. Hey, any girls out there that are single looking for a guy that's ready to mingle? Jack, >> what's the worst ROI purchases? >> Um, private planes. >> Private planes. Horrible. It's different though. Like you look at Ken who you I hope you guys get Ken because I I like Robert, but I love Ken Maroy. These guys are spending like their fund, right? They have 10 thou. I think Ken and Robert has have 15,000 units, right? Like they're at a different level that I will be at maybe in 10 or 15 years. Their fund pays for their jet. I look at that 200,000 or $300,000. That's a hemorrhaging. That is the craziest thing on the planet. However, at his level, he can justify that expense. Why? Because his fund will jump in that jet and run over to a deal that they need to get under contract that's in Dallas. And time is of the essence when you're doing these big deals. I think it's worth $2 million a year if they're going to go buy a hund00 million asset and outbeat somebody else on that deal. Two million bucks if you're buy like same thing with Grant. Look at Grant Cardone. If he go if he has his jet, which he's buying another one right now, >> and he can get a better deal because he's faster on a deal than somebody else that's jumping a commercial or whatever it is and he saves three or$4 million on an asset and the plane operating cost is three or four. Dude, the plane's free for certain people. I'm not at that level yet. And I don't know that I care to be. I think I'm at a point where I don't I'll never be Grant Cardone. I don't think I'll ever be an Alex Ramoszi. I don't think I'll ever be um you know Patrick Bed David in terms of net worth. I have found what makes me really happy is just helping other people and having kids in the process. >> What do you think about the magic mind by the way? >> Is this is this yours? >> It's not our product, but they sponsor the podcast. >> Okay. So, I had one of these. I was with Sean Kendall from Think Media this morning and he gave me one of these. I'm not saying this just because they're your sponsor. >> Okay. >> I had one this morning. I was like, why did I not know about this product? This thing is gangster. And when I walk in here, I see a magic mine. I'm like, I literally was introduced to it this morning. I saw it and I got all happy when I saw the second one I'm having. >> Just wait cuz you can bring these through TSA. >> Oh, yeah. It's smaller than what they restrict you. >> So, where do people go for MagicMind? >> magicmind.com with the link down below in the description. And I believe we also have a coupon code that might give you something a little extra. But no joke, we have these before every single podcast and we take them with us. I usually keep like five in my backpack >> and that way we travel with them and I genuinely like them. They also have one that's caffeine free. This has enough where it doesn't keep me up late at night, but it's like a little bit of >> g of pro of not protein but of um caffeine. It's like >> it's basically like not a strong cup of coffee, but they also have a max version which is double that caffeine if you really need it. But I love these. >> Are they selling in stores now? >> Uh I don't know if they're in stores, but you know what? If you want some to go, I have some extras. >> Yeah, give me one. >> Okay, cool. >> Well, thank you so much. Really appreciate you coming on. I really enjoyed this. We'll link to your info down below in the description. >> Jack, how are we doing a deal together? Are you going to turn my next deal down or we going to do a deal? >> No, I'll do a deal with you. >> Okay. What about you, Graham? Are you going >> So, okay. So, I >> Let's say you lend lend money to me. >> I'll give you a personal guarantee on the money and I'll go put you in deals and I'll show you how big returns are happening. >> Yeah. The I mean, the personal guarantee will get rid of the risk. >> Perfect.