The Hidden Psychology Of Highly Sensitive People - Dr Sasha Hamdani

Hello friends. I'm bringing a brand new live show across the UK and Ireland this October. It's stories, psychology, audience Q&As's, and whatever happens when thousands of overthinkers voluntarily leave the house and end up in the same room together. I'd love to see you there. The last tour completely sold out, so make sure that you snag tickets now using the link in the description or heading to Chris Williamson. Dublin's already sold out. Loads of venues are limited. Tickets are very limited, so get yours now. Chris Williamson. Why did you get interested in researching emotionally sensitive people? >> Because I am an emotionally sensitive person. And I think also just from my body of work seeing patients, you just start to see patterns of people becoming more or falling into the pattern of being emotionally sensitive. >> And what does that look like? What's the experience of life like for someone who's an emotionally sensitive person? You know, I think it's different for each person. But I think one of the bigger overarching things is that these are the people who feel things quickly, deeply, and for a long time. >> Okay. What would be the sort of way that they spend their days? Like they're going about their day. What will be some of the habits, some of the mental uh experiences that they go through? >> Yeah. So, I think a lot of times people with emotional sensitivity because they're taking in so much emotional data, they are overanalyzing every interaction and reading it for am I doing something weird? Is this other person doing something weird? Are you mad at me? They're just interpreting and re-evaluating every single interaction, which takes up a lot of brain power throughout the day. Mhm. >> The other thing that they do is you see a tremendous amount of time spent where you're already predicting that that could be an issue. So they are changing their behavior. They're masking behavior. They're overcompensating for certain things. So there's there's work that's being done within interactions on a day-to-day basis and there's stuff that they're also anticipating these possible interactions. >> Oh, that's interesting. So even silence and in preparation people are interpreting that with a particular lens as well. >> Mhm. >> Right. That's interesting. What about criticism? What's the relationship like with criticism? >> I don't think anybody in the universe likes criticism. But I think when you look at rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is a neurological phenomenon we're talking about, it is this robust emotional sometimes physical response to rejection or criticism. So it's not just like, okay, that happened and that really hurt my feelings and that sucks. It's I feel like the air has been pushed out of my lungs. I don't know if I can recover from this. And it becomes this thing that instead of being like, "Okay, well, I'm chewing on this and it's annoying." It becomes this thing that consumes them. And can it be as significant as to look like a major depressive episode? >> It feels like a fear of disappointing other people is kind of quite central to this. >> Yeah, it can be, >> right? Why? >> I think it it stems from this fear of rejection or criticism. So, if you're going to disappoint someone, you you don't want that the other person to be upset with you. You don't want them to reject you. You don't want them to think badly of you. You don't want them to criticize you. And so, you're dealing with this very complicated phenomenon that's coming at you. All of these emotions happening at once and you're trying to process them in real time. >> Is rejection sensitive dysphoria the same thing as being a highly sensitive person? Is there something like sufficient necessary but not sufficient in here? >> Well, okay. So, here's my deal. So, highly sensitive person. I mean, I think that was a it's not a clinical term, but that that came about um years and years ago. Um and it's talking about highly sensitive to everything. So, not just emotions, but sounds, lights, everything you're sensitive to. >> Okay. >> When I talk about rejection, sensitive dysphoria, I'm putting that on a spectrum of emotional sensitivity. So in terms of there are some people that you know emotions and emotional data doesn't impact them that tremendously on a day-to-day basis and they kind of roll along their day and and maybe it could be a little bit off median where they're like you probably could afford being a little bit more emotional. Um there's people who you know this it they have healthy ups and downs and then there are other people who emotional data can just sink them with things which might be completely out of proportion to what the stimulus is happening. >> Right? Okay. So when you've got highly sensitive people they might be highly sensitive to emotions but also light sound uh busyiness chaos etc. RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yes. >> Is specifically an emotional uh angle that we're looking at here. Why the word rejection sensitive? Why not emotionally sensitive dysphoria? >> It's a good question. I think you know this this term was coined by uh Dr. Dr. William Dodson who was brilliant and brought this up and I think when he was looking at that kind of longitudinal data with patients a lot of them were responding to that rejection and that criticism that would trigger this kind of profound emotional response. >> Um so I think those are two really big cases that it could happen. But, you know, I I think we need to start expanding and talking about emotional sensitivity just in general >> because then you can start talking about emotional dysregulation and that really I think becomes one of the things that we have been missing talking about with ADHD and anxiety and things like that for years and years and years. >> Okay. Why does social rejection hurt so much? >> How much time do you have? [laughter] It's one of those things that you know you look at um there are many different reasons that this is so painful neurobiologically there is inherently a dopamine imbalance. So what's happening is that your brain already is you know struggling to emotionally regulate. So something happens and instead of being like okay we can work with this it's just that you're shot down and you're right now then you get suspended in this low mood highly anxious mood where you're spinning and chewing on this for hours and hours. Another reason this happens is that people who are highly emotionally sensitive a lot of times there are two areas of the brain that are really impacted by this. The first one is the amydala which is your threat receptor. So that in this in these cases is very highly attuned to picking up emotional data. So your brain is picking up this seemingly negative data and then the frontal lobe which is in charge of judgment and processing and decision-m which should be able to be like this isn't that big of a deal that isn't as active. So now you have this highly active threat receptor and this poorly responsive frontal lobe and you're just you're that emotional train is running away. >> Right. So okay explain to me the underlying neuroscience of why emotional sensitivity exists like what is happening inside of the brain of somebody that is an emotionally sensitive person. >> So I think it depends on a lot of things. The first one is what I talked about like that highly responsive amydala and that poorly responsive frontal lobe. You have, you know, you feel things before you actually think about them logically. >> The second thing is dopamine dysregulation. Dopamine is that thing that helps you it it's very multiaceted. It helps with many different things, but when you feel things, you're less able to regulate because of that. >> What's happening with the dopamine? Are these people with high dopamine baseline with low dopamine baseline with low catakolamine clearance? Like what's going on? >> So I want to say low, but it's not it's not as simple as that. It's that there's not enough dopamine at the right place at the right time. So >> what would that do if they had that dopamine? It would help them to be able to weather the ups and downs, >> regulate better. >> Right. Okay. So you know the comt variant. Okay. So I'm coma, right? So I've got two copies of it. um and a bunch of others like that come along polymorphisms that come along with that similarly. That means that for me if stuff's chaotic it's really hard for me to focus but if things are a little bit more predictable and less ambiguous it's hard to get me to stop. >> So for me environment design is really important. Um but it also means I had this really great interaction with chat GPT where I sent my genetic data to it and had a conversation with it and said hey imagine you know nothing about me. tell me what sort of a person you think I would be just based on my genetic data. And it came back with all of these really interesting insights. One of the things it said was you would make a great >> detective and a a horrible SWAT operator that someone who is in a relatively controlled environment focused on one quite complex task, >> great. someone who's got these big peaks and troughs of intensity and then has to come back down and then has to do it again. That is worse for me because my ability to sort of clear off a lot of the adrenaline, the catacolamine. So that is what I was thinking about when it comes to the dopamine side of things that some people are able to be airplanes as Stantin calls them. They can sort of go up and down quite quickly but they have less depth and some people are submarines which is that they have way more depth but it takes some time to come back up. So that was what was interesting about the dopamine thing but keep going. So you've got >> the dopamine side >> the dopamine side you have the norepinephrine side which is like that fueling that very physical response. So it's not a lot of times with this rejection sensitivity it's not just I feel bad then something bad happened. It's I I can't breathe. I feel like my ribs hurt. I'm feeling chest pain. And I'm feel like a lot of times people think that they're having an anxiety attack or they think they're having a heart attack and it's truly just that rejection sensitivity and it's because of that surge of norepinephrine that's spilling those alarm chemicals telling your body that something bad is happening. So your brain at this point it's not just that your brain is you're psyching yourself up into like you know someone didn't text me back and you know they must be you [clears throat] know it's they're mad at me or something like that. Your body is telling you that there is a problem. You are panicked, your heart rate is up, you are sweating, you're tremulous. So you think there's something wrong because your body is responding that way. >> So we've talked about >> dopamine, norepinephrine, you said the amydala. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Um >> but imagine presumably for people the reason that we have a PFC is in an attempt to be able to control the amydala. So it has to be the relationship between the two. >> It's a linkage between the two. There's there not only are we dealing with a hyperactive amydala and underactive prefrontal cortex, but the linkage between them is also frayed. >> Okay. So, in this sort of a situ I guess this would I'm thinking about the SWAT operator. You know what else comes to mind? Dana White when he was in the room at the correspondence dinner where that guy tried to shoot the president and everybody else has sort of ducked down. I don't know whether you've seen this video. Can you try and get the video up of Dana? to say Dana White correspondents dinner reaction and it's him as an active shooter comes in and you hear the gunshots go off, right? Because the uh guy that was the shooter shot a couple of Secret Service people and then he gets taken down. Like what's even happening with that guy? Like do we even know I now I'm interested in whether or not it's another You know what's crazy? There's multiple presidential assassins like just in the legal system at the moment. Has there ever been multiple >> [ __ ] >> presidential assassins in the legal system at the same time? Cuz the guy in Utah is currently being uh like he's he's in trial at the moment. And then the dude that did the other one, he's also being taken. It's like a get in the queue. Um uh yeah, this one this this this >> inside they started all of a sudden it just started getting noisy. tables getting flipped over, guys running in with guns, and uh they were screaming, "Get down." I didn't get down. It wasing awesome. I literally took every minute of it in. And >> the video, so I see if you can find the actual video, dude. So again, that that's what's happened. This assassin's gone in. Dana White's actual reaction when he sat down in the room is okay. >> Everybody else is under the table and he just can't all he wants is so my point being that uh amydala prefrontal cortex thing. >> Yeah. >> Obviously the triggering of his fear center hasn't kicked in and he's able to go isn't this like full access to his ability to think. Isn't this interesting? I think this is a memory that would be worth me encoding for a while. I'm having a good time. You know what I mean? I would I would >> maybe an underactive amydala for that guy. >> That's what I would say, too. Yeah. This is it. Look at this. Look at his face. >> Absolute kid in a candy store like just having the best time. >> Actively smiling. Like, forget the active shooter. Active smiler. [laughter] Yeah, that's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know what I mean? Like, isn't that an interesting response from somebody else's? >> I get what you mean. Um, I think that there is like again when you look at like just neurohysiology and the brain is so fascinating for so many different reasons, but like when you actually understand what areas of the brain do what and the connections between them, you can see it in human behaviors and patterns. It's wild. >> What about the lyic system? >> Yeah, lyic system. So lyic system is important because that's really talking about like that emotional circuitry in general. And so when you are dealing with big emotional data that may or may not be justified, right? It it may it might just be that you perceived this rejection or criticism or emotional data coming in. Your lyic system just goes wild. Areas are lighting up. You're communicating as if like this big emotional response is happening and you're trying to navigate that in real time. M is it right to say that some people feel emotions more than others? Yes. >> Is that a fair assessment? >> Yes. >> Okay. What do we mean when we say that? >> Well, I mean, if you think about like emotions in general, like when you're talking about feeling emotions, you're talking about perceiving them. That's the first step that happens. You're talking about then experiencing them in the moment and then you're talking about how long you spend on that emotion afterwards, right? So there are people that you know you can walk into a room, you already know something weird is happening. You can feel like an emotional and I I give the example of like someone walking into a room with like a complicated social interactions all over the place and they can just, you know, they say to me like something feels off or there's there's something in the air. They say something like that and they're referring to like picking up. So because what they're doing is they're scanning the room. Not only are they listening to words that are coming out at them during immediate conversation, but they're looking at body position, they're looking at tone, they're looking at volume of voice, they're picking up all these different cues, amalgamating them, and and sometimes for the negative. >> Yeah. So that it's interesting the sort of noticing intensity and duration. Yeah. Right. What we're talking about when it comes to emotional intensity, first off, you have to realize they're happening. Then it has to be how big does the feeling feel inside of you. That is how many different cascades occur inside of your brain and body to make you feel it. And then how long is the falloff after that happens. >> Yes. >> Um >> what's interesting I suppose s people walk into a room they're hypervigilant they're paying attention they realize this person's turned away a little bit or they're blinking a bit more or they don't even know what's happening but there is just a sense that person doesn't feel too good. I suppose a lot of the time kind of like a smoke detector principle those people are going to perceive problems where there are none and that's when it becomes very maladaptive right it's already kind of maladaptive to just perceive stuff as it is with a level of resolution that's more than everyone else because the world that most people are in the center of the bell curve and then the world that you're in maybe out toward the tail end and the world that Dana White's in out on the other tail end um are kind of different different existences right and Dana will out on some stuff that I'm sure that he could it would be great for him to pay a bit more attention to, but then the person who has realized that the auntie over the far side is actually in a mood with the sister or whatever. Um, but they're not. They've got a different type of error. Dana has ignored something and they've pattern matched something that wasn't actually there. So, there's I suppose some strengths and weaknesses. All right. I guess what [gasps] when you're thinking about like RSD, what other traits does it tend to be bundled in with? Are there other things that come tend to come along for the ride? >> So with actually I'm going to go back because we forgot a huge thing that that happens in the brain as well and that's hormones. We could talk about that later if you want to >> and tell me about hormones now. [laughter] >> Okay. [gasps] So I I wanted to talk about hormones because I think when you look at the brain in general I mean there is not much else you can look at that would be equivalent to like this huge that has the capacity to kind of change your entire system just globally from top to bottom. And hormones are something so interesting to look at especially for females because like for women you're changing every month you're changing when you're pregnant. You're changing when you're permenopausal. You're changing when you have a kid. It's just like you can have eight different versions of yourself and with men I mean you deal with the hormonal stuff with like as their testosterone drops or and other things that are happening in real time. So hormones directly impact like for example with estrogen um as your estrogen drops your dopamine drops as well and so then you're less able to regulate your emotions and things like that. And that's a huge huge thing to bring up. an important factor in emotional sensitivity and rejection sensitivity because if for two weeks out of the month your estrogen level is intrinsically lower, your dopamine level is lower and it's harder for you to regulate it, you're going to be more rejection sensitive, emotionally sensitive during those times. >> What relationship does testosterone have to emotional sensitivity? >> Yeah, so testosterone is actually it it can be protective in that front. um to a degree in it helps you feel alert and awake and might help you emotionally regulate and balance a little bit better. The problem is is that sometimes as that testosterone drops as happens you know 50s 60s with males sometimes you can because of that drop in testosterone you can feel this huge rise in emotional sensitivity and a lot of men aren't equipped to deal with that. >> Interesting. A quick aside, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I've started every single morning the same way for the last 5 years now, which is a cold glass of water with Element in it. Element is an electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. It's a sciencebacked electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients. It reduces muscle cramps and fatigue, supports brain function, and helps to regulate your appetite throughout the day. I genuinely notice the difference when I take it versus when I don't, which is why I don't shut up about it and also why it's used by everyone from Dr. Andrew Hubman to Olympic athletes and FBI sniper teams, the the good sniper teams, not the bad ones. Also, they have a no questions asked refund policy. So, if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below by heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdism. That's drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. Going back to why social rejection hurts so much, >> right? From an adaptive standpoint, presumably I'm being kicked out of the tribe. There's only 30 people in my pod out of 150 Dunbar tribe that I'm a part of. If I'm on my own, I'm dead. >> Mhm. >> Why would evolution create a brain that can be so devastated by criticism? >> I don't know. [laughter] I think So, here's the deal. I don't think like if you were to ask me, it would like you me myself, I know that I'm emotionally sensitive. I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah, it's really difficult at times to be highly emotionally sensitive, but I think it makes me a better person. I think it makes me a better physician. I think it makes me a better parent. I think it makes me a better partner. I think being able to be highly attuned to emotional data and incoming information can be it can be one of the greatest signs of emotional intelligence you have. So I think that that's I I wouldn't trade that emotional sensitivity. So yeah, I mean did evolution make a brain that can be devastated by rejection? I mean, yes, but there's also some positives that come with that. >> Okay. You talked about hormones there. >> Yeah. >> Does RSD look different in men? >> Um, you want a weird answer for that? >> Sure. >> Okay. [laughter] I, this is my soap box for this. I think that looking at just, you know, being a psychiatrist and seeing mental health just in general and seeing the progression of mental health, especially as we've talked about it a little bit more, you start to notice patterns. And as you look at male mental health, I think that we have done a huge disservice to men in terms of we don't educate men and help cultivate with men a lot of information about emotional sensitivity. And as a result, for a lot of men, they know how to target a couple emotions and one of them being anger. Yep. >> So, I think for a lot of men, you see men that have, you know, they've been told, you know, just man up. This is not that big of a deal. Don't cry about it. Don't like they have been forced to suppress emotions, but the only socially acceptable emotion they're allowed to express is anger. I would say that some of that is probably misdirected or confusing signals of maybe emotional sensitivity. >> What happens when emotionally sensitive boys are told to man up? I mean that you get really angry dudes and I mean it it's just such a like I think as a parent who um has a son um it's weird because and maybe it's this is like the mom son thing [laughter] that I'm so protective over him. Um, but you know, you see in other settings and you you start to really zoom in and you look at how other people are are bringing up their their six-year-olds, their six-year-old boys. And even from a young age in the kindergarten class, you know, the way that the girls are treated in the class versus the boys are treated in the class and not by the teacher, but like the parents. You look at it in birthday parties. You know, a a girl will fall down, they're scooped up, they're they're coddled, they're told, you know, everything's okay. a boy will fall down and it's like, "Oh, that's not that big of a deal." You know, let's let's move on from this. And it's it just it doesn't seem like it's like from Genesis. There's not like a huge spot where they can start to explore and really navigate emotional sensitivity. Well, >> yeah. I think emotionally sensitive women seem to have a bit more latitude and forgiveness to explore that kind of sensitivity than men do, especially as they get into adulthood. Like I, you know, I think you're right that >> it's weird. Anger is such an antisocial emotion. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's dangerous. It can be destructive. It's often not wanted by the people that are experiencing it and they don't want the impact of it to happen. >> Yeah. But anger's for many men more socially acceptable than sadness. And when you think about how antisocial anger is as an emotion, it really goes to show sort of how unaccepted sadness can be. But yeah, you know, we talk a lot online about the importance of getting men to open up. I had a conversation, two conversations this week talking about male suicide. And in both of them, there is this I just wish that this guy reached out. I wish that he'd talked. But in over 90% of cases where a man takes his own life in the UK, he's already gone to some form of mental health counseling. So it's not just the talking about it thing. It's actually allowing like giving room for men to be able to feel their feelings. Mhm. >> And I think that to be honest, like a lot of the blame, a lot of the work, not blame, a lot of the work here can be laid at other men's feet because everyone says they want their friend to open up if you're having a bad time that I really need you to to talk to me. And this is all easy to say after the fact, especially if something really dangerous or or devastating's happened. But how many guys are supportive of another man on the internet that's opening up about how much he's struggling? like not not to the Overton emotional Overton window of acceptability, which is, you know, things are hard, but I'm getting back in the gym and I'm going to put some muscle on or whatever. Like really broken down and I don't know what to do. I'm alone. I'm broken. I'm I'm lost. I'm devastated. >> Uh a guy that's crying is aversive to a lot of men. >> Yeah. >> Uh and women, too. But I'm like, you don't get to say male suicide's a big problem. We need to do more of more for this. Society needs to care more. and then take a piss out of a guy who is opening up about his emotions online. >> Yeah. >> I had this idea of man points which is >> guys need to accumulate sufficient kind of surplus masculinity in areas like muscularity or strength or success or money or notoriety or women or whatever. And if they've got this bank account reserve of masculinity, they can kind of withdraw from that and then talk about emotions. It's like this special video game unlock that only happens once you've reached a particular level of being a man. >> Mhm. >> Basically, people have a big ick. Most of society has a big ick with men talking about deep emotions, especially difficult emotions, but they have far fewer if it comes from a place of prestige >> than one of poverty. uh a guy who's already down on his luck and might not have much going for him talking about how much things are are hurting doesn't get the same kind of sympathy that Chris Bumstead, six time Olympia world champion, one of the most muscular guys on the planet that he gets. He can cry and talk about how he broke down in his girlfriend's arms 6 weeks before he was about to win the world championship because he's got all of these trappings and trimmings of masculinity that make it seem like it's not coming from a place of weakness. It's coming from a place of strength, but again, >> Chris doesn't need the same kind of support because he's already got a community around him of a supportive wife and all of these successes that are continuing to move him down the track. The people that really need it are the guys that kind of don't have anything going for them and they're presumably going to be the biggest risk as well. But yeah, that's my that's my soap box as well to just I really wish that there was more latitude. Like speaking as a guy that feels feelings, I just I did a a full week retreat working exclusively on emotions, 12 hours a day for seven days in Northern California last year. Two weeks ago, I just did a Janna meditation retreat which is exclusively working on conductivity of emotions, a silent meditation retreat for seven days, like sitting on the cushion for I don't know six or eight hours a day. So that was like both of those things for me and me trying to get below the neck, me trying to >> move away from a lot of the judge, not not even judgment, like uh felt scrutiny and um existing patterns of how is this going to show up in the world? Can I operate this way inside of my business? Is this something that I can do that's publicly acceptable? It's like it doesn't you can go and work on this thing in isolation and then come back. But yeah, I I I know what it's like to be a really sensitive kid growing up that didn't have anywhere to put it because you're in a working class blue collar environment or the people around you don't notice or don't have the tools to be able to help. And it can drive you to do really amazing things, but it also creates a bunch of coping mechanisms that mean, huh, I had this weird gift. Like, I had this depth of connection that I could have had with the world and I contorted it, alchemized it, you could say, cuz it went from something that was a challenge to something that you've turned into something good. >> Yeah. >> But it is kind of a denial of a bit of yourself as well at the same time. So that's been this has been a it's one of the reasons I was excited to speak to you because it's a a very personal like super interesting topic. I I think it's fascinating what >> a lot of emotionally sensitive people also they go through life and they hide that part of them because there is so much internalized shame about like you're not supposed to be sensitive. You're supposed to be strong. You're supposed to be able to handle stuff. if you're I mean male and females like I mean this is something that as a human condition people are are celebrated for like you were able to get on the other side of that adversity like you did so well you didn't complain you didn't do and so like you from a young age you just kind of learn to shut down that part of yourself or become really embarrassed I remember being like a kid and you know my mom something would happen and it would like hit my ear the wrong way and I' [clears throat] I would think that oh my god like I'm so embarrassed or something would and I would like go and hide. I would like hide under a table or I would hide in a closet or I would because I was just like embarrassed and sad and everything happening all at once. And eventually I was like this is young like eight. I was like this is not conducive for me moving forward and not functioning well. >> Yeah. This is I can't do that when I'm grown up. And so then you just start hiding it. So if you're emotional or if you're having a hard day, you lie about it. You are like, "I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. It's not a big deal. I don't want to talk about it." Or and sometimes I would be like, "I don't want to talk about it with other people because I'll cry and that'll prove that I'm emotionally sensitive." And so I I hear that story a lot as well. >> The insight that suppression isn't the same thing as strength. >> Yeah. >> Is I know kind of kind of worldchanging that what you're doing if you're an emotionally sensitive person. That's swallowing them down is you're performing the role of somebody who's got composure. >> Yeah. >> But that's not the same as having composure. That's not the same or you're performing the role of somebody that hasn't felt the thing. But that's not the same as >> no >> not feeling the thing. >> No. >> And you've got this line, the real challenge lies in not feeling deeply, but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support that sensitivity. >> That's a good quote. >> It's [laughter] a great it's it's a great line. It really is. The real challenge lies not in feeling deeply, but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support that sensitivity. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Yeah. The world feels very spiky. Every time I come back from retreat, I always feel like everything is so tender. >> I know. And then what you get to see is how operating in a world that's incredibly intense, very chaotic, fastm moving, you have to create these strange patterns and coping mechanisms and wall yourself off and guard yourself just so that you can move through the day. And that's fine, right? You don't want to be a a whimpering blob on the floor. >> I don't want to be a puddle. I don't want to be a puddle of emotions. I want to be able to show up. But then also, there are bits of your experience that you're denying yourself. And there are strengths that you can have that come along for this. That's a question. What are the strengths of highly sensitive people? What are the strengths of people with rejection sensitive dysphoria? >> Yeah, I think being able again I think that there is a direct pipeline between being highly emotionally sensitive and being highly emotionally intelligent. And I think that's just how you deal with that sensitivity. And so some of the strengths that can come with that emotional sensitivity are number one, you have a deep deep deep understanding of other people's emotional insides. And I think that's part of, you know, what led me into psychiatry in the first place. That's part of why I've continued to enjoy it as much as I have because I think that you can intimately understand when people are talking about their experience or like you can even understand you know sometimes I'll have a patient come into my office and you start asking them questions and you know their answer is like I don't know like okay so c can you tell me anything in the past two months that has really made you upset I don't know like and so then it's for a lot of Well, that's like a stone wall. You don't really know where to go from there. But for some people who are highly emotionally sensitive, you're picking up like, okay, I'm picking up from like previous body cues that they were giving me when they were talking about their family or when they were answering in certain ways. >> You're just like, okay, well, there's some tension there. And so, you start asking about other questions. So, you're picking up stuff that you might not even have clocked as it was happening at the time, but you've amalgamated and you know exactly what direction to go. I think that's an incredibly um wonderful thing to have. Um and I think that yeah that outside of just psychiatry, I think that does make you a good friend. It makes you a good partner. It makes you a good parent. I think it's so helpful with parenting. >> Um so I I think it's just that huge scope of understanding that emotional condition. >> Does emotional sensitivity have an impact on people's self-esteem? Um, yes, [laughter] but sometimes it can be negative. You know, if if you're highly emotionally sensitive, I think, and you're used to reading emotional data negatively, sometimes that can start to impact your self-esteem and you're you're walking into a room and, you know, self-worth and self-confidence are different, but you walk into a room and you start to feel like, okay, maybe I'm not wanted here and things like that. and you're reading emotional information and and possibly attaching a narrative on there that doesn't actually exist >> that can impact your self-esteem for sure. >> Um, but there are other times like for example in the work that I do as a psychiatrist because of that emotional sensitivity. I'm celebrated for that and I think it's a really unique field to be in as an emotionally sensitive person >> because that's one of the areas where I get the most validation cuz people feel like they have been understood for the first time. >> The supplement industry is full of products making claims that they can't back which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momentus. Their co-founder Jeff Bay has played in the NFL and saw firsthand just how wildly the quality of supplements can vary. So he built Momenus around a higher standard. Every product from Momentous uses evidencebacked ingredients, transparent doses, and independent third-party testing. Everything is NSF certified for sports. So, what's on the label is actually what's in the tub. It's why Momentus is trusted inside all 32 NFL locker rooms. It's why I've trusted them with my own supplements for years. Best of all, Momentus offers a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it and try it for 29 days. If you don't love it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemus.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's lie mus.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. What's the difference between confidence and self-esteem? >> I think self-esteem is like inherent inherent in like that's that's you. Confidence is more I think what you're capable of and what you're you know your like your confidence in your skills and what you can do in that moment. >> So confidence I think fluctuates and self-esteem is just self-worth is your base. >> Okay. Does that mean that people with RSD are more likely to need constant reassurance? >> Yes. >> Right. [laughter] >> Yes it is. [gasps] Because I think what what's happening is that they're getting this negative input or potentially it's not actually negative. It could be >> they're reading neutral input as negative or positive input is negative. >> Yes, >> that's happened too. uh but you're reading it as negative. And so there are times where you get so stuck in these amygdala loops of fear and your your stress hormones are like just cascading through your body that you're just like I just need someone else to tell me that I'm not like that this isn't actually the case. And so it's a it's a form of reality testing. >> Do you think that you can build self-esteem without external validation? >> Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um I think with you know I I guess success is kind of external validation but [cough] but [clears throat] doing I think there is stuff that you can work on your self-esteem. One of the biggest things to help with self-esteem I think is understanding your own brain cuz I think if you have this if you are able to dstigmatize for yourself like this isn't a personal feeling. this is just truly neurobiologically how my brain is working. I think that can bolster your self-esteem pretty tremendously. >> Does this mean that compliments are hard for these people to believe? If somebody pays you a compliment, is it quite likely that it's going to be brushed off by someone with RSD? >> Sometimes. Sometimes I think it depends on on how they're receiving it in that moment. Like and what the what the relationship is with the person. Like for example, if it's a relationship where you know a a sibling that's always kind of been a straight broker and they get a compliment, you know, you might not feel like I don't trust that compliment. That's weird. If it might be they're already self-conscious about something and they don't know the other person well and they give them a compliment, maybe that hits their ear weird because they're already kind of self-conscious about it. It really depends on where they are in that moment. >> Okay. >> But it's possible. >> How does emotional sensitivity show up in relationships? Um [laughter] it >> you sound exasperated by >> I know because it's such a broad question. Um I think emotional sensitivity plays a role in every relationship like whether you're highly emotionally sensitive or not. I think relationships are just kind of this minefield for emotions anyway because for in a very real way you're putting yourself in a spot of vulnerability. you are, you know, I mean, theoretically in vulnerability where you're exposing parts of yourself to another person and you're having to navigate those waters and see, you know, you're really like putting it out there and if the person likes you or doesn't like you, you're you're putting yourself out there to possibly receive rejection, possibly receive criticism. So, I think that for a highly emotionally sensitive person can get really tricky. Um, and people I know a lot of people that are highly emotionally sensitive who have rejection sensitive dysphoria who don't want to date anymore. They're like, "This is too hard. I can't do that because as soon as there is a delay in texting, I've convinced myself that this person isn't isn't interested and I've redownloaded an app." >> Why does waiting for a text feel so unbearable? I think it's just that that lack of that immediate answer and that knowledge. Your brain just fills in a narrative in that empty space. And so like for example, if they were interested, they would respond to me right away. If they like I've even had people who have thought, and I've thought this in the past, if I'm sitting on someone who hasn't texted back, my brain will go to, well, they're with somebody else. Like they're they're not thinking about me. They're with somebody else. And like by the time they respond like they got off of their shift, I have already moved on [laughter] like I'm angry with them and then you know it takes a while for me to recalibrate and figure out but that sometimes that's where my brain has gone. >> Right. So does this mean that anxious people sometimes will >> sabotage relationships before they've even had the chance to be rejected? >> Yes. >> How does that show up? >> I mean that was my pattern in all of my 20s. Like as soon as >> what would you do? >> Like as soon as people got >> close enough and I was worried that I was, you know, like we're getting a little bit too close and now I have to show you actual parts of myself or or I'm I'm afraid that if you know certain parts of myself or you know that I'm really really emotionally sensitive and I overthink absolutely everything that you say, you're going to leave. So I'm just going to end it. M >> so I've never been broken up with [laughter] ever >> cuz I would just like >> you can't find me. I quit. >> Yeah, I quit. I'm out of here. >> So I would just leave before and and it was literally no fault of their own. They would not be the cause of this. >> Big fear of abandonment. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, not even abandonment, just like because it wouldn't be abandonment because I would opt I would rather be alone. I I like But I don't want you to say something negative about me. I don't want you to point out something that I already fear about myself. I don't want you I don't want you to say those words that you don't want to be with me. Like, I'm fine alone. I just don't want you to say that. >> Because that would be a judgment on you and that would be you being pushed away. >> Yeah. I'm fine by myself, but I just don't want you to push me away. Okay. Like vulnerability hangovers as well after you've opened up having this >> Oh yeah. >> period of time. What is vulnerability hangover? >> I to me it is and like for so many of my patients it's this period where you feel like you've shared too much and you've been too vulnerable and you have like let in somebody else a little bit into your internal environment and so you've you've cracked that door open so they can see that kind of stuff. And so then what my brain does is I just spin and spin and spin and think about like, okay, well now they know this, they probably know this, and they probably they're probably thinking that I'm just like a huge weenie and that I can't handle anything and that I, you know, and that and I think it's like a direct shot from being very vulnerable to being very embarrassed and then pulling away. >> Yeah. It feels to me like the common thread between a lot of this is not really the feeling of the emotions deeply. It's the story that you tell yourself about what those emotions mean and what other people might think about you for having them. There's like a lot of shame wrapped up in this. At least that's how I'm interpreting it. >> I think I think if you were to look at emotional sensitivity kind of as a spectrum. I mean there's a place where you know maybe you're not as emotionally sensitive as you might should be. >> Dana White [laughter] >> I don't want to say it. Um [gasps] then there is a place where you know you're you're ups you're kind of regulated up in the middle. There's a place where I think you're highly emotionally sensitive and then I think when you move further down that >> pathologically sensitive. >> Yeah. I think that's that's more rejection sensitive dysphoria. >> Right. So we're talking about the most sensitive people. >> That's what I say. Yeah. >> Okay. And and you consider this to be you. >> Yeah. >> Right. Okay. But you managed to operate in the world. I mean, you've chosen a very specific [laughter] industry to be in. Yeah. Right. I think this is the this is the thing again, if we were to take you at one end of the spectrum and Dana White at the other, um, physiologically also two very different humans. Um, what has happened there, which is I guess pretty great. Like Dana White would probably make a [ __ ] horrendous psychiatrist. And I don't I don't think that you would be fantastic as the CEO of the UFC, a fighting school. Well, maybe you're maybe true, [laughter] but there are dispositions and there are situations that you put yourself into. If you were in a relationship with somebody who was go go go, doesn't really think about emotions that much, isn't able to sit with you in the muck, isn't able to hold space that much, that would be a bad type of partnership, right? No, I'm sure you could make it work. Maybe you could even have a flourishing relationship. But it would be done by like gritting your teeth and gripping the bar incredibly aggressively. The same thing for Dana White. If Dana White was in a relationship or in a business where he constantly had to sort of be very fluffy and very soft and sort of patient, sensitive, more demure, you know, moving at a a more uh delicate pace. I don't think he might be able to make it work. I'm sure that he he is a flexible, competent human, but if he does that, he's going to be like not fully utilizing this part of his capacity in the same way as the world loses a great psychiatrist if you become the CEO of the UFC. Yeah. So this and this to me is like compatibility. The more that I think about it and the older that I get, compatibility is kind of everything in life. Okay, I have this type of a disposition. I can work on it and I can try and smooth off some of the edges that do feel a little bit close to pathological or just a bit maladaptive, right? It's it's firing in the wrong at the wrong times and I want it to be a little bit more this and a bit less that. Okay, >> but largely you have a set and a suite of strengths that come along with this particular disposition that you have and you can put yourself in a situation where those aren't things that you need to cail. They're things that you can use as a platform and a springboard. >> Yeah, >> I pay a lot of attention to stuff, right? I pay a lot of attention specifically words. Words was like my first love as a kid. I read a lot as a kid. And now it means that when I build brands like I built this thing, I built this podcast. word play and coming up with cool copy and spending obsessive amounts of time the for the first run that we ever did. You'll see that there's three icons on the back of this can. >> Yeah. >> One of the icons was half a point off offset on the back and this had gone through like we sold millions of cans and no one had noticed. And one day I picked a can up and I was like guys there's something wrong with the back of the can. And the only reason that that was able to be seen was because of that level of attention to detail. Now, is that going to be the difference between this being a billion dollar brand and not? Probably not. However, that same trait, >> delicious, >> wonderful. That's the that that's [laughter] from a boardcertified psychiatrist nonetheless. Um, >> yeah. >> My point being I work in industries where that attention to detail can be used properly, right? It can be used really well. Let's say that I was an an architect or an engineer that helped to build bridges or I was uh somebody maybe a surgeon's assistant or something like that. like really paying attention to how clean the surfaces are, things like like that would be great. If I was in a different industry, I'm not convinced that that level of attention to detail will be so good. So again, what I'm kind of trying to get at here is that for people who think, "Wow, I I feel stuff a lot or I pay a lot of attention or I I focus on things. I tend to ruminate. I tend to have intrusive thoughts that play out these pantoimes of what might have happened with this person and their motivations." It's like, okay, that can be and should be uh uh alchemized in some ways, right? You can we can work on that, but also you can just find worlds and domains in which that's like a a real [ __ ] superpower. And I think that trying to get people to not see that suppression is a strength, but to see, okay, the issue is not you being sensitive, the issue is you being in a world that doesn't utilize your sensitivity properly. I think that's a I don't know. It's just an interesting way to get tactical around this. >> That's how I ended up in psychiatry. So, I went into medical school with the hopes of doing pediatrics. My mom's a pediatrician. I was like, that's what I'm going to do. I got through pediatrics and I'm like, this is a little boring. I I wish it wasn't, but I was like, I can't be in clinic all day, and I also can't be sick every winter. Like, I can't do it, >> right? >> Um, and so I was like, okay, let me pivot and I'm going to do PE's ICU. I like I really thought that was my calling and it was because I was like I'm doing all this work from med school and like this is the superhero job. Like I am saving children. Like there's nothing that is better than that. >> Yep. >> I went in for my like letter of recommendation. Walk into her office. I was like at the door of our office and this woman like stops me at the door and she's like, "I hope you're not coming in here for a letter." And I was like, "Okay, what?" And she's like, "You cry all the time. You cannot do this. You will burn out in 5 seconds." And I like I wish, and I put this in my book, like this story, cuz I was like, I like in my brain, I was like, just say something, make a noise, respond. I I couldn't even say anything because I was like, she's correct. I knew in that moment >> that she was correct. like it that work every day I went to work that I was in the pedu I was scared and I was upset and I like I like I would be >> like reporting to my um attending and I would be telling them what happened overnight and I'm like crying as I'm telling them at the bedside and so I leave her office and I was sitting in my car and I was like okay well I guess what area of medicine can I cry in [laughter] I end up in psychiatry And so that's I mean you finding an environment that can hold all of that emotional sensitivity I think is really important. >> And the same thing goes for friendships and relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just on the relationship thing, uh texting, waiting for text, why is uncertainty so much harder to deal with than bad news? Uh because it's not I think I think it's it's the the fact that it's not definit bad news difficult but I think at some point you're like okay that's really bad but here are the steps I need to do to make it better and like now I can kind of make a game plan. the uncertainty. I will tell you 10 times out of 10 I will convince myself that a way worse outcome is happening in real time. And so I've already convinced myself that the worst possible outcome is happening rather than if I actually get, you know, the the knowledge that something bad is happening, I'm like, okay, that's not as bad as what I thought thought it would be. I suppose as well you can create situations in imagination that like defy the laws of physics like your dead great grandmother can come back from the grave to laugh at you about the thing that that can't even happen but that's how much our brains abhore having uncertainty that they would rather fantasize a nightmare than deal with ambiguity. I I know that I I for one have have come up with situations where like then I'm later I'm telling like my mom has taken the brunt of this where I'm telling her all of this stuff and she's like what >> that's deranged. >> What is this? How did that come in your brain? >> Okay. So this must be the same thing the same dynamic of why ghosting is so damaging. >> Yeah. >> Because there's no closure. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. There's no closure. And I think also like this is ghosting is just awful. People shouldn't do that. Just just so you know. It's just an awful way to communicate. Um I think this is one of those things where as an emotionally sensitive person, you you ghosting is not just like, okay, this is the dissolution of the relationship. your brain automatically goes into there's something about me that forced this person away and and so that uncertainty >> they're an [ __ ] It's I'm insufficient. >> Yes. So it it gets turned on you and which I think is such it's so cruel to do to somebody else. >> Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly. You eat reasonably well. You feel fine but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body. And that is why I partnered with Function. Function gives you access to more than 160 advanced lab tests spanning hormones, heart health, kidney function, and even detects early signals linked to more than 50 types of cancer. To put that in perspective, your typical annual physical might test 20 markers. Function runs over 160. It's huge. Best of all, you test twice a year and everything lives inside of a simple dashboard. So, you track trends over time, make sure you're moving in the right direction. And this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is $365 per year. just $1 a day to actually know what's happening inside of your body. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to $340 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionalth.com/modernwisdism. I'm wondering to sort of take it back to the how RSD and emotional sensitivity shows up in men. I wonder whether emotionally avoidant men are sometimes just emotionally sensitive men in disguise that don't have enough courage. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. A lot of times yes. I think emotionally avoidant men um you know you again going back to this thing of like men really don't have a lot of space to explore how to be emotionally sensitive. um because you know just from a young age they're told that they can't be and so they learn how to suppress it and to change it. And so when they're put into situations where they may have to be emotionally sensitive or they may have to, you know, engage in a way that they could get hurt or they could get rejected or something else could trigger sadness or an emotional response. They're just like, "Nope, I'm out. I'm just going to pull myself away from this." I mean, I've told you about I mean, I've been avoidant in the past because of that. >> How do you draw the line between emotional sensitivity and emotional fragility? Because what we're talking about here is, hey, you have this superpower. There's going to be some challenges that come along with it, but wherever you are on the spectrum from from Dana White to yourself, the >> I love that we're the extremes. >> I think you are. I really think I think you're kind of technically different species. Um, I'm interested in when saying this is actually something that you need to man up about. This is something that you need to get over. This is something that you need to grit your teeth and work through as opposed to you just don't fully understand how emotionally fluid and sensitive I am. Like I feel things deeply, you know, because everybody likes the idea of being validated. But validation done to the extreme >> results in no accountability, right? There's no point if if every emotion that you feel and every response that you have is valid then you go okay in that case I don't have to work on anything I can just be as big of an [ __ ] or a [ __ ] as I want and never actually as opposed to okay there are there are some limits that I need to push myself up against. So, I think a lot of people will be feeling this as they're listening. It's like, "Okay, like these people, this is interesting." Like, my sister or my girlfriend is like, she cries at things that I wouldn't usually, and sometimes it takes a while for her to come back down after she's had an emotional event and so on and so forth. Like, >> how does somebody know when it's emotional fragility that should be worked on? When should they push and when should they pivot? >> I don't think it's for another person to make that decision. I think it's for the person experiencing that moment. Because like for me, I think this is what that past three years of research has gotten me to because it I for years I'm like am I too fragile? Am I too weak? What is wrong? Like what is this? And I think it we've just emotionally sensitive people in general have been kind of put and not put but existing in an extremely difficult like right now the world is a hard place to be a human in. This is just a weird time to live in. >> If you want to feel feelings, it is. If you don't want to feel feelings, it's actually quite a fun place to be in, I think. You know, there's like so much there's there's so much novelty and there's lots of things that you can do and you can have an infinite number of like the velocity of different stimulus that you can enjoy, that's great. But if you actually want to feel feelings, it's kind of horrendous. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm on the horrendous end. Like I I think I think existing in the world right now can sometimes be very difficult. Um, but I think that for an emotionally sensitive person, we've also never been given tools. Like there's they we have been told you're too sensitive, you're too fragile, you're too weak, and you need to kind of strengthen yourself. >> Mh. >> But no one's told you how to do that. And really what it boils down to is is looking at that like there's that step of us receiving that emotional data and then how do we catch it kind of in that moment so that we can you know impact either we're not going to change the processing because we're still going to read it but can we impact the intensity? Can we impact the duration? Can we get past this and make it a usable moment? And there's skills and tools that come with that. And that's what three years of like pulling from every area of psychology and psychiatry to give tools that were would work in the moment and over time that's what led to this book because I don't think people have that. I never got that. >> What are the most powerful emotional regulation tools? >> Okay. So I I came up with the calm your mind toolkit which is 12 of them. Um, and and I will I will tell you that all of them are are things that you probably heard before. You you've heard challenge negative thoughts. You've heard move your body. You've heard delay your reaction. You've heard stuff like that. But I think for an emotionally sensitive person or someone who's going through big emotions in real time, things can get so overwhelming in that moment that it's like when I have that like get absolutely flooded emotionally. nothing is happening up here like I can't think or process or like utilize what tool am I supposed to use. So this was so helpful for me to actually go through and in a place where I was regulated. I could be like okay this is the tool I want to use and then actually break down the steps knowing from an emotionally sensitive brain this is when I'm going to feel blank. Now if I have this book that could tell me like step by step what I'm supposed to do cuz that's what I wish I had. I just I just want like a gu I wanted a guide because I think it would have made med school easier. It would have made dating easier. It would have made you know the early years of my marriage easier. It would have made parenting easier. I think it's just there. Did that answer your question? >> Well, I guess [laughter] pick the top three tools to calm your mind and how do people do them correctly? >> Yeah, that was the question. Okay. Um, I think one of my favorite ones is just utilizing movement because I think that there is a tremendous and I'm not saying like you have to be in like some heavy duty like weightlifting kind of thing and you have to do a certain amount of cardio or something. I'm saying that when you are incredibly emotionally overloaded, there's a tremendous amount of value in like physical movement and one to like pattern disruption. So you're actually moving. Two, you're getting oxygenated glucose to your brain and hopefully shunting it to that frontal lobe so you can get resources there so you can think and process and override that amydala in real time. >> What does that look like? Someone's going through a event where they're emotionally activated. Do they start doing push-ups? >> You I mean whatever floats your boat, man. But I I would say like during dur I the last time I utilized it in real time. I was in a meeting and I was talking during the meeting I was talking about leaving the practice I'd been at for 9 years and starting my own practice. And so I'm like they were all of my partners were around me. I felt like I was just like I was overcome with guilt and fear about starting something new. And it was just it was a very big moment for me. And I recognized like, okay, this is what I need to do. And even within that, I just from under like I started like just tensing my calves and like moving my legs and do and just like and I think when you look at like ADHD in general cuz you know almost 100% of people with ADHD have some some form of RSD or you know they're they're fall on that spectrum. You look at fidgeting and things like that a as a form of like emotional regulation and self- stimulation and things like that. You're trying to actually surge some of that dopamine nor epinephrine kind of data. >> Okay. Movement. >> Yeah. >> What next? >> Okay. Um, you're asking me my favorites, so I'm thinking about the ones I've most recently used. One of them really like and it's delay your reaction. Because my initial impulse the minute I get pressed up against the wall or like if I have like this like big emotional stuff that I don't know how to deal with is I I respond with urgency. So all of the time if something is happening like if there is a delay in a text message I will be that person who texts a four time where are you what's happening and this is just like a reminder like if I delay my response >> I'm allowing that amydala to stop spinning as much and I allow that frontal lobe to come on and then the narrative I'm telling myself is going to be significantly less negative and usually by that time that person has responded. >> Does that not also create more time in uncertainty though? >> Here's the deal. I think that if you are if you understand that that it's a very purposeful and mindful thing that you're doing if you if you know that that's what you're doing for your brain. You're not you're not just like stepping away and like you're like, "Okay, well maybe they'll respond in that time." I'm stepping away because I know that I need to give my brain time to just like stop overheating. like I want my amydala to stop spinning out of control. I want my frontal lobe to come online. I want to give it enough time to do that because I know that I will think better. I think that gives me I know that I'm using a tool. I'm not just sitting there. >> How has it been being a mom with this? Because when I think about even the well- balanced parents, there is anxiety. Where's my kid? They're late back from soccer practice. I don't know when they're going to come through the door. Who who are you going out with this evening? I have to assume that the disposition that you're going into parenting with can be great because you're going to be attuned to your child's needs, but can also be highly chaotic because you're going to feel worried. >> Yeah. I I think I mean it's chaotic, but I think all parenting is kind of chaotic to be honest with you. I think it's just it's a it's it's a wild ride. But I think that I'm very lucky because my husband is very measured and calm and patient. And so I think he is like such a good emotional barometer for all of us. And I think that in that context where I feel so much safety and so much, you know, we're all given kind of free reign to explore our feelings and to navigate through life. I think being emotionally sensitive as a parent has been really helpful for me and it's really helped me kind of understand because kids like can be very annoying. That's just part of being a kid. >> Well, reliably they grow up to be annoying adults as well. >> Yeah, they can be annoying. You totally but as kids there's stuff like even just like noise and and just like stuff that they do and you know they're not little adults. They're kids. Their frontal loes aren't developed. They don't know any better. But you're you're so tired and fatigued from this non-stop like marathon of parenting that sometimes it's it's hard to remember that. I think being emotionally sensitive, you look at your kid having a big emotional moment and you're like, I know what this feels like and I know what what can help you come out of it. And it's not going to be like snapping or yelling or like trying to pull you out of that moment by force. It's it's giving you that safety and that and that freedom to explore and figure out the solution for yourself and pull yourself out of it. >> Exercise, delay your response. What's your third favorite? >> My third favorite [gasps and sighs] um I think you'll like this is mindfulness. I think being like really really drilling down on the mindfulness and for me I think what is really important about this is not for I always thought that mindfulness is like factory reset like you got to be thinking about nothing like if you're doing meditation or something like that nothing is going on in your brain and I think the difference for me is giving myself the space to non-judgmentally just observe what's happening in my brain and like just observe what is going on and there you know there there was a study that came out of Yale that was looking at this mindfulness and like the power of like just observation instead of like judgmentally rushing to solve that feeling just looking at the feeling it reduces activation in the brain. >> Mhm. Yeah. [snorts] I mean that was something that I learned on that that meditation retreat. It's an interesting style of meditation Janna which is the one that I was doing. So with mindfulness it's a bit more brute forcy which is I think why it's become more popular. you have a thought, you notice the thought is there and then you sort of release it away. You almost it's not quite a pushing. It's more a opening of the hand. But with the school that I was doing, you you actually welcome that in. So you pull the thought toward yourself. So you see the part of you that goes um you start thinking about work and then you judge yourself of being distracted for thinking about work and then you notice both of those thoughts and you go, "Wow, there's that bit of me that thinks about work." like I'm really glad that I care that much about my pursuits. Like why don't you come like show some gratitude to that and then wow there's that bit of me that's judging me for not being good at this thing. He just wants to work so hard like he really wants to do this thing right and he's here to protect me and like you can come here as well and as you continue to do that it's a very different it was a very different experience especially doing I've done I don't know 2,000 2 and a half thousand sessions of across my life and then got thrust into this new school. I guess it must be similar to learning to kickbox your entire life and then going and doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu and you go, "Well, I'm still fighting somebody, but the way that I'm doing it, the domain is completely different." And um yeah, one of the things that was kind of interesting, >> at least with the the mindfulness part there was it's >> it's very much about emotional conductivity. It's about okay, how can I see what I'm feeling completely non-judgmentally? And I think that it's the same thing that you're getting at. With one of them, you're letting it go and with the other one, you're bringing it in. But for both of them there is a lack of judgment. Right. And I think that that shame spiral that we were talking about is >> you talked about kids there. >> What do you think Tik Tok is doing and social media? What do you think social media is doing to emotionally sensitive teenagers? >> Oh well. Okay. So here's the deal. I think I think social media is just a weird place in general. That that's coming from someone who is on social media. Um, I myself find I get triggered by social media all the time. I'm constantly comparing myself to others. I feel like my a lot of my dayto-day um relationship with selfworth for a long time was driven by numbers. Like how many likes did I get on a post? How much engagement am I getting? Like how like what's happening on that? That's what was driving like am I good at what I'm doing? Like is I was getting that external validation. I I am I'm a physician who's gone to med school and who studied the brain like and that's still happening to me. So for kids whose their frontal lobe isn't fully developed, I think they probably are at higher risk. And so I think that it's just a difficult I don't think I don't think completely like shielding them from social media and and from that entire world just like you can't really like the train is moving. You can't you can't completely shelter your kids from absolutely everything. You have to teach them how to navigate these constantly evolving waters. I've learned from over a thousand podcast episodes, the easier that you make your health routine, the more consistent you'll be. It's like golf, right? You want to keep it simple and not mix a bunch of pills. You want the eye of the tiger, not the DUI of the tiger. That's why I'm such a huge fan of AG1. One scoop contains 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food source ingredients in a single daily drink. And that's why been taking it every single morning for nearly 5 years now. And they've taken it a step further with AG1 NextGen, backed by four clinical trials. Those trials that was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just 3 months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, even in people who already eat well. Plus, if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it and try it every single day for 3 months. If you don't like it, they will give you all of your money back. Right now, you can get 20% off a welcome kit and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkagg.com/modernwisdism. Can the way that you're raised in early childhood enhance your sensitivity? I don't know whether you've done much work into nature versus nurture for this. >> I think there is a huge part that's genetic. There is a huge part that also if you grow up in like this incredibly chaotic and tumultuous home, you are already hypervigilant. You're searching for cues. You you can be more emotionally sensitive because of that as well. Mhm. >> And then if those two things get combined. >> Yeah. >> Right. Okay. How early does rejection sensitivity emerge? >> You I mean you could see it in 2-year-olds, you could see it in three-year-olds, >> right? Are there some parenting behaviors you think that accidentally create emotional sensitivity or maybe even fragility? I don't I don't I think that there's some things that a lot of parents are doing in hopes that they are getting a more resilient child like teaching them you don't need to cry about this you need to move on you need to you know this isn't a big deal where and the way that I kind of have thought about those kind of because like even raising my own kids like I think about that all the time that isn't that big of a deal like My kid had a tantrum the other day that I wouldn't [laughter] give him the heel of like the loaf of bread and I was like that's objectively the worst part. Like you don't want that. I don't want to give it to you. And like it was like a huge thing. But then I was like this kid has [laughter] not dealt with like disappointment yet. It just it from what I'm understanding this is probably one of the worst things that has happened to date. Like he hasn't had a very hard life. So like I need to teach him how to navigate disappointment instead of being like this isn't a big deal. It probably is kind of a big deal to him. He really wants that heel of bread. And so it's, you know, and I don't really have a good reason not to give him it. But like I we just we had to navigate through that moment and like with big tantrums, you you deal with that, but I think it's easy in that moment to be like this is a dumb problem. Move on. I think the heel of bread is actually a really lovely meme for everything, which is working out the difference between validating feelings and encouraging victimhood. And this is in adulthood as well. You know, there can be a situation that you're in where what you're after is a heel of bread. >> And everybody around you and you yourself, the better version of you, has every right to go, "No, dude, you don't want that. Like, you're being silly. You're being ridiculous." Um, and again finding this difference and finding the line between validating somebody's feelings and going, "Hey, I know that you feel this way," but also not encouraging them to further weaken the uh resilience that they need emotionally. I think that's where the sort of rubber is really going to meet the road with this thing. How we got through that moment, this Hila bread moment, is I took out a hila bread and then I took out another piece of bread and I was like, "Let me just tell you, these are the two pieces of bread we were talking about and I know you want this one. Describe what you like about this one instead of this one." And then he's like, "No, I wanted this one instead." And so I like I think it was just like he was so stuck on this idea and like didn't get past it and like instead of just being like, "That's dumb." allowing him to actually see and get to that conclusion like I don't actually want the hila bread was helpful for us. >> How does RSD show up in work and achievement? Because I have to assume that these are the overachievers, the perfectionists. >> Sometimes but sometimes it actually before you can even get to that spot where you're kind of overcompensating, you're not even putting yourself out there. So, I have patients who have been, you know, I I couldn't even like I got spooked on the job interview and I like walked out. I couldn't do it. Like I I didn't feel like they liked me. >> Say you get past that spot and you're in the work environment. Sometimes you are so and you see this a lot with high achieving people and especially high achieving women. I think society there's just like this pressure on women to do everything to do it all and to just like not complain. So if another thing comes along their way, yes, I can do it. Yes, I could take that on. Yes, I could do all this stuff. >> And so you just what happens is that you start to override the signs of burnout and you just keep adding more and more and more onto your plate because you don't want to look like you're less than your peers. You don't want to look You don't want people to be like, "Ah, she was able to do that last week. Why can't she do that this week?" You don't want to look incapable and so you just keep adding more until you kind of reach that tipping point where you can't. >> Yeah. I think it's uh I I found this essay uh the ambitious mother paradox, good mother or wasted potential. It's really great. It's a quite a long read, but there's a a really interesting line here that says the implicit logic of protecting your right to work in the workforce was clear. You can't argue for equal access and then immediately ask for accommodation that implies you are different. That women have just been brought into the workplace. This is not something they want to be taken away from them. This is something that they're worried might be taken away from them. Mhm. >> And yet there are certain elements of many people's but often many women's psychologies that can make the workplace feel like kind of a spiky and unforgiving and a bit sterile and cold place to be. Like, hey, your emotional sensitivity in this like capitalist meritocratic, very fast-paced environment, >> there's not a massive amount of room for that. >> Yeah. And yet you also know as somebody who's just gotten into this highpowered career that you fought for this and everybody else, all of the other women that have just fought for this have just got here. And you're like, well, I like I really want to be here and I don't want it to be taken away from me. And now I feel bad about asking for accommodation that implies that I'm different, which is I feel this thing and the guys around me don't seem to be feeling it in quite the same way. Or maybe they're just able to suppress it more effectively than I am. Uh, I just thought it was such a I'd never really heard of anybody highlight the fact that there is a there's a tension like a bridge doing this in an earthquake that's moving in difficult directions that creates a sort of a pull on the system especially for women in the workplace especially for highly sensitive women in the workplace. I feel like I need to show up as the men that I think are the ones that are running the company, but I want to be one of the women that's maybe running the company, but I'm like denying part of the nurturing, empathetic people skills that I've got that are my competitive advantage. So, I need to perform in this way and I don't want to be seen as less than and I also want to protect it for everybody else, but I also don't want to deny myself and I might need to ask for a bit of support, but I'm worried if I have support that's accommodation for this brand new world. I just like it's hard. I reading that essay, this big massive essay by Taylor, I was like >> that's a lot. That's a lot to navigate. >> It's a lot. And then just like from a logistical perspective, there's also that, you know, child rearing falls in that. So all of a sudden you're at the peak of your career. You have a kid. You have to step away from that and then reintegrate and then all of a sudden you'll find that you know and you know it's probably because you did step away. it. Now, you know, you're it's almost as if everything you work towards kind of gets pulled away from you and you're you're everyone assumes that all of your priorities are completely different and and there's opportunities that are kept out of your reach. It's like it's a whole it can be very difficult to maneuver just from a logistical perspective as women are the ones bearing the children. I had a great conversation about dad brain, but also mom brain came up too. And the fact that if you have a kid as a mother, 2.5% gray matter lossish. Like that really does not basically anything that requires executive function that is not your child gets pruned a little bit. >> Yeah. >> And that means Yeah. You're if you were the EA to some high-powered CEO and you were basically running his entire life or you're the chief of staff, right? and you before were just this absolute military killer. You could go you knew exactly what was going on at all times and now it feels like there's fluff in your brain. You go, "Huh, I I again, this is another situation where I think compatibility and one thing that would be cool, I know that other people, this isn't my idea, but suggesting that mothers look at um transitioning careers to things that utilize this new skill set, not to see it as a weakness, right? not to go, I want to be the person that I was when I was 25 and I had literally a different brain and different priorities and a different stage of life as opposed to going, huh, I've just unlocked this entire new world. Maybe becoming a therapist would be like a really incredible opportunity for me to focus this brand new level of empathy. That would be that would be great. >> Flip side. >> Yes. >> Flip side is have those environments accommodate those changes. understand that those those changes are happening to women and that you know priorities shift and instead of putting them in the same roles pivot their roles so they can utilize some of those skills that they have. I so same sort of thing but inside of the same company I think that's a great idea. I get the sense and this is a culture and narrative change that would need to be made. I get the sense that a lot of women would feel that as being if it was imposed on them >> I'm less than now. or you're saying that I can't do what I used to do. >> And in some ways, what you're trying to open up is no, I'm saying that you're better at doing other things that you couldn't do previously. There's two ways to look at it, right? What have I lost? What have I gained? And we're saying this is something you've gained. Why don't we utilize this new skill? >> As opposed to this is something you've lost. Why don't we get you away from using that old skill? and just the framing. But I I I don't >> framing and the valitional component like if if if the woman felt like, you know what, this is where I could spend more time and I could utilize these skill sets a little bit better. Like I think I think at the end of the day should be kind of her choice and her her pushing that kind of decision. >> Yeah, I agree. Creating the culture that makes that not feel like just chalking up an L. >> Yeah. is that is where an external influence can uh adapt like an internal desire you know oh the way that this is framed externally what society says I should be doing >> actually makes me feel more or less comfortable with doing it and I think you know the ruthless part of this and this is for every woman that runs a career let alone every man it's like >> the market doesn't give a [ __ ] >> and ultimately businesses need to run businesses that are profitable and are growing And that is where again finding that line between validation and when do you push, when do you pivot at some point that has to be and this is the same thing is true for guys. Same thing is true for like you can't be if your testosterone is dropping and if you're not quite as mentally quick at 65 you're probably not going to be the same killer salesman that you were at 28. >> Sure. This is the market doesn't care. I'm sorry. Like you've come up and you've shown all of the but anyway I here's how I've like thinking about this whole conversation and thinking about your book. Sensitivity is the input and emotional intelligence is the output feels like the equation that we're playing with. Is that a fair assessment? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> And that gives people certain advantages and it gives people certain challenges as well. >> Yeah. I think emotional sensitivity as a whole, I think that it's something that can be difficult and it can be wonderful and it's just I I know like as a person who's gone through this and as a physician who's gone through medical school and psychiatry training and all this, this was never taught. People aren't taught about how to actually in a very real and tangible way deal with their emotions. And I think that emotional stuff like when you're looking at because a lot of my research was on ADHD. When you're looking at ADHD, like a lot of that like executive function and all that stuff like to some degree you can you can find a hack or you can delegate or you can do you can't do that with emotions. >> Yeah. They're just in you and you can't show them to anybody else. >> No, you can't like you have to be able to process and get through on the other side. if you are completely consumed by them or if you're having a hard time regulating them, I mean, you're not going to be able to think. You're not going to be able to move on from that moment. It takes so much brain space. And so, that's that's one of the things that I hope that this book will help give people a little bit more agency over their emotions. >> If there's someone that feels like they're in the world and it's too spiky for their emotions, what would you want them to take away? What would you want to tell them? >> They just don't have the tools yet. Just like it it they life is hard. This world is hard. And I think being emotionally sensitive it for so many of us is a beautiful thing is a beautiful thing. It's just it's sometimes really difficult to keep your head above water when emotions are big. And so having those tools and being able to grab hold of them and use them in appropriate times is lifechanging. >> Dr. Sasha Hamdani, ladies and gentlemen, you're great. I appreciate you going into the murky depths of people with way too many emotions. >> Yeah. >> Where should people go to check out everything you've got going on? >> So I'm on Instagram, I'm on Tik Tok, I'm on YouTube, and it's the Psych Doctor MD >> and the new book. >> And the new book, Too Sensitive, which is out um August 25th. Heck yeah. Appreciate you. All right. Goodbye, my beauties. >> Yes. >> Yay. We did it. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on. [music] Watch it.