The Hidden Forces Behind Your Choices | Glenn Hutchinson | The Art of Charm

And they have a million experiments showing that you think you know why you did it. You have no idea on earth why you do why you did it. Um they did all these experiments and and and uh also wrote about ones that other people had done where the experimenters you know they manipulate some aspect of the environment. They watch how people's decisions change and then they ask people why they did what they did and they give some answer. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the experimentter knows was the reason that they did it. Welcome to the show. It's great to have you. >> Thank you for having me. Now, walk me through this. You've studied people who cheat on their partners that they genuinely love, not liars or sociopaths, but good people. What's going on inside their head the 10 seconds before they make that choice? >> Wow. Well, that differs so much based on on um each individual case there. They there I think you're maybe you're suggesting that sometimes it's impulsive and and sometimes it kind of is. I mean um a person particularly if they're drinking and they're in a you know situation where they're really tempted then uh maybe not a whole lot goes on in their heads. Not as much as we would want to go on in their heads. Um but other times people uh you know have uh they they're very aware of what they're doing and and um they just have felt uh so tempted for so long that they eventually give in. Their executive function is not up to to uh saying no at that point in time. So obviously it is a scarlet letter in our society. It is an act that's looked very badly upon. It wrecks lives, wrecks relationships. But good people do it. People who are honest, people who are moral, people who outside looking in, you would think would never put themselves in that situation or make that choice. But they are also responsible in this situation. What what's going on in these moments where so many of us feel like, hey, I I have the executive function. I know better than to give in to temptation. >> Yeah. Well, I I think one of the really interesting things uh is that there are some people, this is not everyone, but there is a subgroup um of people who experience um chronic urges that are it to them it's almost uh as if there's an alien that is that is creating these urges, right? So, they have an unconscious mind that is generating desires, intense desires and urges on a frequent and chronic basis. And yet they their their conscious self they is very upstanding. They genuinely hold um maybe even to very conservative values and so they see themselves one way and normally they live according to that. um but they uh just feel tempted so um chronically um that that uh it's very distressing to these individuals and um I I think for for them sometimes eventually they give in. You know, the fact is we all feel like we should be able to say no and and we and we we can um but the problem is is that what the research also shows is that when we are facing a strong temptation that is right before us that none of us are good at consistently saying no over time. Okay. So we we we uh if brute force suppression of your desires is something that you might pull off every now and then but not over and over over time. So this is why people who start diets um you know very often find themselves uh you know not living up to what they're they planned. They're still eating the ice cream late at night and it's because they they have these urges and those urges are very very powerful. Uh we again we feel like we should be able to say no. Sometimes we can but not really over time. And I I I think the the release of the GLP1 medications lately has really made this point very starkly. Um so we had millions of people who uh for years tried to lose weight and they just couldn't do it. They couldn't stick to their diet or they would stick to it for a while, they'd lose weight and then they would gain it all back. Right? and and what was you know the therapists had all kind of theories about why they overeat. Some said well it's low self-esteem or whatever but now the GLP1s what the GLP1s do is they turn down the urges that come from that part of your unconscious mind that tells you to eat. And so as soon as these people uh got on these medications and it turned down those urges, all of a sudden they were actually able to stop eating and they lost weight. And so I think it it it's a good illustration of the way that that um we believe we should be able to say no and we we can and we the person on the diet sometimes does say no. Um but over time we just don't we we're not able to do it consistently enough and and you know this was a point that that um Daniel Conorman the the made very often before the JLP ones came out. He's been deaf for a couple years but he was a famous professor at Princeton and and um Nobel laurate and uh wrote the book Thinking Fast and Slow that that was a really great book. Um and what he said is you know we we um our conscious mind is able to evaluate and say no to many of the the suggestions or urges that come from our unconscious mind. We do have the ability to do that but he emphasized the fact that that is not what usually happens. that we are really inclined to go along with the suggestions that come from our unconscious mind and that those suggestions are in effect our default behaviors. So if you are uh confronted with temptation over and over and over, you're going to fail sometimes. >> Yeah. I think what we're talking about here is willpower. >> And many of us just feel like this is a willpower scenario. Like you should have enough willpower to never in in the face of any temptation eat the ice cream if you're dieting or do something worse to your relationship or the people you love. >> And what's actually happening here is it's not the conscious act. There are all of these forces that are working against us unconsciously. So if you can unpack what those forces are that are this unconscious mashup that's leading to this urge that for the rational person who feels they have great willpower and they have upstanding character they will consciously say well I would never do that I I would never give into that temptation. >> Right. Right. Well, I think one of the things that's so fascinating, one of the themes that that I have that runs throughout my book is just how deceptive uh our uh conscious experience is. We we feel like all kinds of things are true that that actually are not the not the way things really happen, right? We we feel like we understand how we make decisions and uh and that's and it turns out the way they come about is just simply quite different than we we believe that they are. Um, so I I guess to to answer your question there is is that you know our brains evolved over eons and and we um our ancestors in the very distant past long before we were human you know uh I'm talking about neural networks that uh are like sex drive and and attachment and hunger and thirst all kinds of systems that were required for to to keep our ancestors alive. And so those evolved and then much much later we evolved a cerebral cortex and the conscious self that we have today. And um there the there is some integration to be sure. But the fact is is that that most of our desires, you know, our passions, the things that interest us, the things that that motivate us, the they come from our unconscious mind, right? We of we might know what it is that we're attracted to. Uh that could be sex. We might know that we're attracted to people who look a certain way or we might know that we're attracted to people with a certain personality characteristic. Or we might know that um I really want to eat that entire box of cookies. Or we might know I want to go get drunk. But we don't know why. We can't we cannot introspect and look at the processes that are causing us to want to do that thing and not some other thing. And so that that's something that we often fail to appreciate. And uh so the way it works is is that these very ancient systems are triggered by external circumstance. Well, it can be by internal circumstances too. The the these systems get triggered. They get activated. We don't know that they're activated. They're running in the background in our minds. And once they reach a certain level of activation, they produce an urge to do a certain kind of thing that they evolve to make us do. And so that is where the urges come from and as that they pop into our our conscious mind and most of the time we simply act on them and it it doesn't do any harm. It's not some big deal, right? We oh I grabbed a bag of cookies and I ate them, you know, okay, so what? Okay, shouldn't eat at the cookies. No, who cares? But it's it's really the same thing. So this urge is coming from out of from deep down. we we don't see it coming oftent times and our conscious self um it feels like it should be we should just be able to say no. Um but there is just a huge mountain of evidence that says we're not really nearly as capable of saying no on a consistent basis as we believe that we are. Let's unpack some of that evidence because I think so many of our audience members are saying that's not me. I I'm a top performer. I have really strong willpower and I can combat all of those urges. >> Well, I I I guess I would challenge the those people. I mean, the fact is that I think everyone is in touch with the fact they they've tried self-improvement, right? Uh I don't think I've ever met anyone who uh didn't get frustrated by that. Um changing your behavior is hard, right? I mean, it's like um and I work with a lot of clients who struggle with this. Um it sometimes changing a behavior, it's like trying to change a 30-year-old golf swing, right? When we do something over and over, our unconscious mind kind of takes it over and automates it. And that makes it very powerful. And um you know, if it's re if that and and the kind of behavior I'm talking about could be anything and it can even include a thinking pattern. So sometimes a person um develops a habit that when they're in a situation where they uh doubt their ability, they get a whole bunch of negative thoughts about themselves. That becomes an automatic thing. So every time they go into a situation where they doubt themselves, they get flooded with their consciousness gets flooded with these negative thoughts. So but any kind of behavior can looking at pornography I mean anything can become something that is automatic in a certain situation and what most people have experienced is how difficult it is to change these behaviors. Um, if you are um if you have easy access to uh well, if you have easy access to the pornography, you're probably going to start looking at pornographies, right? If you um if you it goes back to the dieting thing. If you have easy access to uh ice cream, well, you're going to eat it. And that's why before the GLP1 meds in particular, when people were trying to lose weight, we we said you can't buy the ice cream. If it's in your house and you get the urge, you are gonna eat it because everybody does. And so the fact and and you know some people may oh I don't do that. Okay. Well, there's something else then that tempts you, right? Because it what tempts me is a little different than what tempts you and what tempts somebody else, >> right? >> Some people the thing that they're um you know trying to change is the way they talk to their kids. They get home at night and and their kids start racing around and doing stuff and they find themselves just not being nice, right? they're in a bad mood and that's this thing they've tried to change and they just can't. They change it for a while and then as soon as they stop paying attention to that thing, they go right back to the old ways. So, I I think all of us have uh if we're being honest with ourselves, we know how hard it is to change certain behaviors. Um and and I think that if you are um and the the um going back to sort of the infidelity thing, I think that that it's just simply much harder for some people than others. And the reason for that is that we're all different. And in the same way that some people that we vary in terms of height and weight and intelligence, every one of the the unconscious or hidden processes in the human brain varies a little bit from person to person. So if you um take you could pick any of them, but say sex drive for some people that system gets activated easier than it does in other people. uh for some people that system produces urges that are stronger than it does in other people and for some people once that system gets activated that activation lasts a long time whereas for other people it might go away very quickly. So there are many systems that influence our romantic and sexual behavior and each one of those systems is a little bit different from person to person. So what that means necessarily is that some people are just simply destined to experience a lot more temptation than others. There there are a couple of other ways in which our unconscious minds vary that that I think are are relevant here too that that people should think about. So some people's unconscious minds are very oriented toward uh toward reward and other people's unconscious minds are very oriented toward risk. So their unconscious some people's unconscious minds will tend to make suggestions that they go for it and go after this reward even if that puts them in great danger or or might destroy their relationship. Uh other people's unconscious minds will uh urge them to be very cautious even if that means they have to give up rewards that would be very valuable. Um so just one more example here um in the of a way that our unconscious minds vary that make it so different. So each of us we we get a different amount of a of charge or reward out of each different kind of stimulus we might encounter. So in studies when you when when we bring people into the lab one at a time and show them uh a video or um they're just pictures of say desserts or lobsters and other delicious things on on brain imaging. Some people simply get you see a lot more activation in reward networks in response to those stimula than the other other people get. The same thing happens when you bring people in and show them sex related stimula, pictures of sex or something related to that. And in studies where where we they have followed these people for 6 months later, um what they find is that the people who got more activation in response to uh the foods, well, they ate more food over the next 6 months and they gained more weight. And the people who got more activation in response to the to the sexual stimula, they had more sex over the next 6 months. So, um these things are are are are deep. They're they're powerful and and we do underestimate them. And um that that is not to say that that we should excuse the behavior. It is to say that we should get smarter about how we try to prevent it. We are going to have more success if we try to alter our environment than we are if we try to uh s succeed in refraining from behaviors just by this you know by sheer willpower. So, what you want to do is not have the cookies around so that you don't start thinking about them and or or if you do think about them, they're harder to get to. Um, if you are a guy who has a has had many sex partners and you're now married, you want to stay away from situations that are going to remind you of what it was like to go out and look for a one night stand. You want to stay away from situations that are going to trigger that desire inside of you. And you most especially want to stay away from situations where you're actually going to have the opportunity to do that. So you have to we we the way we um should deal with it is by dealing with the environment way ahead of time because when we are face to face with the stimulus that really is the one we like whatever that happens to be uh we're we're not as our real power is not as great as we think it should be. Well, let's let's unpack that further because it it sounds on first read then that maybe if we want to be in a committed monogous relationship, it's not good to have a partner with high sex drive. But I'm assuming it's not just high sex drive that leads to infidelity. I'm assuming there are other reasons that people right >> so the other Right. and and um many affair what what happens the way that that many of them happen is that what the person really wants um is it's not sex but it may be just a great strong emotional connection right and so they meet somebody that they just really like and often times this one is really insidious right you don't you don't think you're doing anything bad you are you just really hit it off with this person they work near it with you and you you know this unconscious part of your mind is is just and you don't even really think about it realize it. It's just driving you every day to go say hello and and and maybe have coffee and it just and it just builds from there, right? And people can really get into trouble that is develop a really strong emotional connection that way and and be deep in in the woods before they realize it. Yeah. Are there other paths to this? cuz I think there are certainly many people who have high sex drive and that alone does not drive them to infidelity. So, >> Oh, absolutely. >> There's a combination. >> There's so many there's so many factors that come into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um absolutely. So there are um the the one of the risk factors that we know for for the for sexual infidelity. It's not the only one. Everybody's just seems to kind of fit what you're talking about here. Um is having had lots of sex partners before you you get married or before you get into a committed relationship. And and the re it makes a lot of sense here, right? Because if you um if you go out and and you so I in the my book I talk about this guy. I give a really good example of this. He he was just uh he was sort of a cliche but there are a lot of guys like him. He was a really good-looking guy. He was a really smart guy. Um a really good athlete and and um and he from the time he was about 16 on he just had many sex partners. Nobody ever criticized him for it because he wasn't in a serious relationship with anybody else. He had a great time. It just it was it became uh something that was very close to his self-image, right? It made him feel good about himself that women wanted him this way. And he it um he developed what what psychologists would call a very well elaborated concept. And I don't know what you would call it just um you know sexual fun or something like that but but it really amounted to a mindset right and so for him uh it would the re he did he was unfaithful years later when he uh met the woman he would ultimately marry and it happened when he was away from her and was on the west coast working with some colleagues and they had a big victory. They were attorneys and they had a big victory and they went out celebrating and um they were out while they were partying this beautiful woman just kind of came up and attached herself to this guy the kind the way that that had happened since he was 16 and uh and that's how he got in trouble the first time. It's not to excuse it but I I I think that we make a mistake when we underestimate the power of these these um unconscious forces. Um there, you know, you we get into a certain mindset and we can be remarkably blind to things that we think you can't possibly forget about, you know, or fail to think about and appreciate your partner if you love them under these circumstances. Um, and I I don't know whether he totally wasn't thinking about his his at that time they weren't married, his girlfriend or not, but um, you can see that that for him it was just such a natural and easy thing. And statistically we know that what I'm saying is true because it is a fact that people who have a lot of sex partners before they get married, they are more likely to have have affairs. So, um, so having a high sex drive doesn't by itself doesn't mean that you're going to cheat. It's one risk factor that that you got to look out for. But, um, if you're married and you, um, are in a good relationship, Yeah. you're most people who have a high sex drive, they they they don't cheat. >> Yeah. So, it goes it goes both ways. It sounds like there's a a validation piece to that example of having other partners validate >> his self-esteem and his worth >> regardless of who he's partnered with. >> Yeah. And I I now I see this um in in u some very different kinds of cases where and this is an interesting one. So, some people um have um they maybe did not have much success when they were younger uh dating. Um maybe they were ostracized. And I've had two cases in particular that that come to mind. And they grew up to be very successful people. And one of them, you know, in high school, he was this nerdy musician in the band. and he grew up to be a really good-looking uh successful performance artist and he loved his wife. He really did. But he, you know, women would come up to him and he would and all the time and uh after his performances and he periodically for a time gave into these things. He felt terribly guilty and and and eventually um stopped doing that. But it was an incredible struggle for him. Um, now I think for him and and for the other guy I had in mind, it was partic the the attention of other women was particularly powerful. The first guy, yeah, it was part of his self-image, but he had a good self image. He he wasn't struggling with with with self-doubt. the the the musician guy and the other one that I was telling you about, they were plagued by self-doubt because they had been rejected so much when they were were were teenagers and in college and they felt so badly about themselves, getting attention from an attractive woman, which happened later in their lives. That was just like this magic elixir, right? And it it was this thing that just quieted all of the the the the self-criticism inside their heads. These guys, you know, they were they were married and they loved their wives and and what they told me was they thought that, well, once I get married um and I have somebody I love, I'll feel better about myself and I won't need that. But it didn't work out that way, right? I mean, it's like I mean, they did love their wives. that did help some, but they still had this this just intense um need to feel attractive. And if attractive women showed interest in them, it just was this charge, you know, this this this incredibly exciting experience. So, it became something that was a real challenge for them. Um, and not because they were the arrogant cliche kind of guy, but because they had exactly the opposite experience when they were they were in high school. I think for a lot of our audience members, they're they're nodding along to these examples of like, okay, that does sound cliche or I could totally see that coming, but I think a lot of people have the belief of I know my own mind and this this concept of the interpreter >> and how good we are at spinning fictions. And and I think many people who find themselves in in this scenario can rationalize to themselves probably before their partners even find out that nothing insidious happened here. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. So um Timothy Wilson, a famous social psychologist who um wrote one of the most he and uh uh Richard Nisbet wrote one of the most famous papers in the history of psychology in 1977 uh called telling more than we can know. And later uh Timothy Wilson uh wrote a book called Strangers to Ourselves. And what they found and demonstrated was that the fact that that we readily come up with explanations for our behavior. They it just it just we don't even have to think about it most of the time and we believe what we say and they have a million experiments showing that you think you know why you did it. You have no idea on earth why you do why you did it. Um they they did all these experiments and and and uh also wrote about ones that other people had done where the experimenters, you know, they manipulate some aspect of the environment. They watch how people's decisions change and then they ask people why they did what they did and they give some answer. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the experimentter knows was the reason that they did it. And and so it really came uh this is another one of the huge shifts that's occurred in the way that that in the way scientific psychologists see uh human beings in the last 50 years. Uh we just don't know ourselves nearly as well as we think we do. Um and then you you raised another point um a minute ago which was sort of the the rationalization. And so motivated reasoning is kind of the um underlying uh phenomenon that we that allows us to rationalize. And so but uh a lot of time people probably think that motivated reasoning is something that a person does consciously and intentionally. But what the science shows is that most of what happens in motivated reasoning, it involves processes that are occurring outside of our awareness. And so for example, um if you are motivated to do something or to believe a certain position or viewpoint, uh you don't know it, but your unconscious mind really takes charge of your attention and it brings to your attention all the facts that appear to be consistent with it. and it causes you to overlook the things that are not consistent with it. Um there's a another phenomenon uh that's unconscious uh called biased assimilation and that is that if you're considering some big issue like am I a good spouse or or you know whatever um there's probably a huge body of information that's potentially relevant and and as you look at each individual shard of information in that on an unconscious level we have an emotional reaction to each little piece of information and that that unconscious just emotional reaction is positive if it seems to support what we want and negative it if it seems to not support it. And that causes us to either accept that piece of information or toss it out. And so you can imagine that that by the time you get through a huge body of information uh and and develop your ultimate position on this topic, you have an incredibly biased warped perspective and you have no idea that it is. And so these are the kinds of of um phenomena that go on and and sort of feed into what we experience as um what is sometimes conscious rationalization. Right? So all this motivated reasoning has sort of provided uh the fuel and the the the grist the information that our conscious self can kind of take and and and uh mold it even further and into uh something that justifies our actions and and it's uh you know some of it might be conscious but a whole lot more of it than we realize was happened unconsciously. >> Yeah. I think some of these beliefs feel good like character determines behavior. But I know there's like so many interesting studies around this like thinking about judges who by character would say I am very fair and honest and I weigh both sides. But in a situation where they're hangry and they haven't eaten, >> they're more likely to make the wrong decision or be unjust. Or if we're in a hurry, slight perturbances in our schedule will shift entirely all of our values and and our behaviors in ways that I don't think we recognize influence us. You're you're exactly right. And and to me, the darkest and most bewildering example that a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their their brains around um is something that just happened in Atlanta again a few weeks ago. And that is that um sometimes people leave their infant in the back seat in on a summer day and and the kid dies. And usually what happens here in mo a lot of these cases, what happens is that the person the adult was not used to taking their kid to daycare. that was not part of their routine. And so, but that day, that's what they were supposed to do. And so, this person gets in the car with their kid. They they, you know, they just go on automatic pilot. They start listening to music or they start thinking about some uh presentation they got to do at work and and they they never think about their kid again, and they just go to work and get out of the car and go in their office like like they they do every day. You know, we we believe that, oh, well, if you love your kid, surely you'll think about them. It's just not how it works. And so what what the people who have studied this and you know counsel people is if if you are going to do that, if you don't if you're taking your kid to work and that's not part of your routine, you should put your briefcase in the back seat because your unconscious mind is going to remind you to get your briefcase because that's part of your routine every day. But your your child, no matter how much you love them, is not part of that routine. and your unconscious mind simply may not remind you of them. >> Yeah. And I think again it's going back to the the cost savings that our brain is doing by not having to run through all of these other processes. The autopilot saves calories, saves processing power, and in certain moments we can then access it. But for many of us, we're running on stacks and stacks of autopilot that we're not even recognizing. And it's happened to me. Like I'll hop in the car and I know every morning that I go to the same gym, but this morning I grabbed my wife and we're going to get coffee before we go to the gym and she's asking why are you turning left? We're supposed to go right. And it's just like, >> oh, exactly. >> Well, because I always go left. I I don't even think about, oh, the the coffee. Oh, yeah. We're getting coffee. And we laugh about it, but there are so many of these autopilot responses that we're running on dayto day. >> Yeah. I think you you Well, the one you mentioned is a great illustration, and that is driving without paying attention. I mean because think to me what what's fascinating is if you pause and you think about everything that your brain has to do for you to drive without paying attention. I mean your brain has to track all the other cars on the road. It has to look out for pedestrians and bicycles and listen for horns and sirens. It has to integrate all this information, make decisions about what to do, speed up, slow down, turn right, you know, change lanes, whatever. And it's doing all this without your conscious self at all. And to me that's a really good demonstration of of you know your unconscious mind is is pretty powerful and and and we really underestimate it. So I think we also link a lot of our actions to love. So I act in a certain way because I love you. The intent is there and therefore my behavior is linked to my attitude. But the science actually says that's not how our brain works. Well, yeah. The I think what you're getting at, and you're right, the science says that a lot of times we engage in behavior that's not consistent with our attitude, >> right? >> Um for for but but um I think that that it's it um it's not that we're always uh going to act in a way, and I know you're not saying this, but it's not that we we that our attitude never influences our behavior. What matters is does the attitude get activated in the moment when we need it to get activated. Right? And the problem is is that sometimes the concept that we need that that we hold the attitude about that we need to get activated just doesn't get activated. And that's what happens when they when when people leave their child in the back seat, right? So love and and is really an attitude. And so this person has a very positive attitude toward their child. And the problem is is that the concept of their child doesn't get activated. So neither does the attitude toward the child. And that's why they just walk off like the kid's not there. Um but if there was anything that reminded them of the child, well, they would instantly go running back to the car and make sure their kid was okay and take them to safety, right? And and so the problem is the reason that we so frequently engage in behaviors that that are inconsistent with our attitude or I should say it's one of the reasons is that the the the concept and attitude that are relevant for the moment simply don't get activated there. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead. You can finish that thought. >> Oh, I was just gonna say sometimes the problem is which attitude gets activated. Sometimes we we um there there is a whole realm of research about people acting um in ways that violate their values in certain situations and they don't realize it and and that arises from something that's very interesting and it is the fact that that every single object in the world and every behavior can be categorized in multiple different ways, right? And so an example of this that I I give in the book is a woman named Meline. I I made up her name, of course, but she's an a very successful advertising executive. She's she's re really creative. She comes up with these great um ads that that motivate people to buy lots of snack food that is not good for them. She regards her work as great marketing. That is that when she's at work, that's the hat she's wearing. She's been rewarded for seeing it that way, and that is how she sees it, and she's proud of it. Well, Meline also has a 10-year-old daughter. And when Meline is at home helping her daughter and her daughter's friends organize and publicize a bake sale, she's not wearing that hat. She doesn't have the concept of great marketing activated in her head. And she would never dream of suggesting to her daughter that they mislead people about the nutritional value of the food that they're selling. If she did, if anybody suggested that, she would think that was horrible. she would think like, "Oh, that's so dishonest and deceitful." But in reality, that's exactly what she does all day every day at work. But the fact that that when she's at work, she she is viewing it through this lens of great marketing. It's because this category, this concept is activated in her head and it it serves as a lens and it causes her to not recognize that her behavior at work is really um in conflict with the values that she maintains in the rest of her life. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's why I think frame is so important to understand and in certain contexts we can view something entirely differently >> absolutely >> than we would and especially when we're around our peers. >> So there's the peer pressure then of being at work and everyone being in that frame of this is great marketing. It's even harder for her to say well wait a second we're pushing sugar to kids. >> It's easier to go along with the group and be like yeah this actually is and sales are up so this message is working. Absolutely. That's right. Yeah. I mean, no. And and we all talk about >> let's talk about the the conscious and unconscious mind and what's going on there because I think now we're at a point where the audience is like, "Okay, I get it. There are these forces." But I think the visualization of the elephant and the rider really contextualize it in a way that you can understand what we're up against here. Because I think we might be viewing it after listening. Oh, these are equal forces and I just have to lean a bit more into the conscious and I now I understand the unconscious, but I'm in more control than I might realize. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, this metaphor is one that I borrowed from Jonathan Height, um, social psychologist who's done a lot of work, you know, about with kids and smartphones and stuff like that. Um but he uh he came up with this metaphor to represent the relationship uh between a person's unconscious mind, the elephant, and their conscious self, which is a person on the elephant's back. And he, you know, it's it just it's intended to, you know, to communicate to us what we are up against. as you said, um it's not that we can't ever influence the elephant at all, but we're really foolish if we think that that our conscious self is a match for our unconscious mind. And again, we see, you know, where do you want you want evidence for that? Well, look at the GLP1 meds. To me, it's just a really good crystallization of of what we or and it exemplifies what we face in so many areas of our life when we're trying to change our behavior or we we feel that we should be able to, you know, to to do something differently and and yet we keep getting pulled back into the old ways. Um, so I I really appreciate Heights metaphor. It's the one the reason I I um I used it, you know. >> So, with all of this, how should we be thinking about this? Because it is for many of us monogamy, a committed relationship is the goal and being with a partner who does not stray is a big part of that. And where do we start to look at forgiveness and okay, someone's just acting unconsciously and can't control the elephant. Should I stay with them then? Like can they change? I think this then brings up a lot of muddled questions around what do we do if if we are with someone who has straight on us who has behaved in this way how do we approach it thereafter what's the healing process like and why is it um well I'll we'll unpack that and then we'll go later deeper >> sure yeah so the first thing I would say that is that you know as I was saying earlier in terms of controlling the behavior I think everybody for people who want to monogamous. You know, it's important to keep in mind what I was saying earlier, which is you can control your environment. Um, and so you want to avoid situations that put you at great risk, right? So, that that's a way that we can help ourselves a lot. So, if your if you or your spouse um have been unfaithful. Yeah. So, that what do you do? What do you think about it? Well, and this is something I should have said earlier, there are many people who cheat simply because they can and they don't feel guilty about it. Um, if that's what you discovered you're married to, then get out of the relationship and find somebody else. >> Yeah. Um if you are with somebody who seems to be um you know deeply uh sorry for for what they did and and and they love you and that's what they're they they want to be with you. Well, then um I think you have to, you know, it makes sense that you take time to rebuild trust and um that person has to show you that by avoiding circumstances and situations where you know that that are ones that maybe they uh could cause them to slide back into the same kind of thing again. um you would need them to show willingness to be open with you like you know are they hiding their phone from you or they do they say you can look at anything you want to see. So I think that that there are ways to know whether your partner is being serious when they say they they mean to stop and that they uh want they that they value your relationship. Um, if they do, then I think, you know, I mean, some people, they just want to leave anyway, and that's their right, and I won't criticize that. But if if you loved your partner before this incident, and and you thought they loved you, and they say they did, and they still do, um, and they're uh showing signs of being completely open with you and and determination to never let that happen again. Well, I mean, you know, I I think um a lot of us would like to to say that that's something worth hanging on to. So, um but I think, you know, you just have to read these things uh day by day. Um every case is different. There's no blanket rule about whether someone should stay or go go go. But I do think it all comes down to for for most people, at least the ones that I see. And I have to be careful cuz you know as a as a psych a clinical psychologist I I have a biased sample. I see a certain kind of people come to therapy right and and and and there's some people >> that want to change get help want to take control of this area versus the sociopaths who find no issue with their behaviors. >> Right. For sure. Yeah. And so I think that that and and some people just don't want to deal with it. They're they're out of there. As soon as they learn their partner cheated, they're gone. But but I think for for as you said the people who um come to therapy, they're people who maybe they they really value that relationship. Um and um you really have to look at the individual circumstances of that and um I think there are ways for and I see people do this um is to rebuild trust and that absolutely can happen and and people do uh some people do go on and and continue to have a great relationship and occasionally you could say it was a better than it ever was before because it uh motivates them to just u be more intimate. emotionally and more transparent with one another uh thereafter. Um so every case is different but u um >> and I I would imagine more conscious of their unconscious and more conscious of their biases and their proclivities and environments and situations they should not find themselves in. >> Um that recognition comes from these moments of of contrition and then working on themselves. >> Absolutely. Yes. Exactly. So, you mentioned love, and I think there's it's such a broad word that has so many different meanings for many of us, but I'd love to unpack the triadic love system and and what's going on there with these dynamics where you can feel like we love someone, but we're attracted to someone else. We're interested, infatuated. What are we talking about here, especially in committed relationships, cuz >> this is very interesting. So, you know, earlier we were talking about the the um the fact that that we have all these different systems in our brain and most of them evolved before we even had a conscious self the way that we do now. So, Helen Fischer was a a prominent biological anthropologist um who died recently. But what Fischer Fischer said that if you want to understand the romant she said that many systems of course in our brain can influence our romantic and sexual behavior. But if we want to understand this part of our lives, we primarily need to focus on three of them. And one of them is sex drive. It's just the system in your brain that makes you want to have sex. Another is is uh romantic love or infatuation. It's part of your brain that makes you feel like you have a crush on somebody or um that you're in love with them. And the third one she she had in mind was long-term attachment. And that's the part of your brain that causes you to feel a really deep sense of connection to someone. And it's the kind of connection that gives your life meaning. Um and and you can't imagine your life without them, but it's also not generally as exciting as being in love or falling in love. So what Fischer said was that these systems, they evolved a long time ago. They have different purposes. They're not in sync. They necessarily tend to operate relatively independently. So, this is why a person who has a healthy long-term attachment kind of love for their spouse um and wants to spend the rest of their life with them is there that's not going to stop their sex drive system from causing them to experience intense desire for an attractive stranger. And most people accept that that happens because they've had it happen. But what's a little bit more surprising to many people is that for some people who have a really healthy long-term attachment love for their spouse, that also doesn't turn off the romantic love part of their brain. And they may still get a crush on other people. And I have met couples where they both said, "We, hey, we've had a great relationship for decades." Um, but one or the other one of them periodically had crushes on on uh other people. You know, I think that I was talking earlier about the fact that everybody's for for everyone every one of these unconscious systems in our brain is a little bit different. So my theory is is that you know there's this whole idea of love addiction as well. And you know my theory about that is is that there are people who um they have that romantic love part of their brain that causes them to have infatuation or a crush. It's just overactive. you know, it it it gets triggered too easily and and so even though they love their partner, they meet somebody that has certain characteristics and they just all of a sudden they're like back in middle school, they have this crush on this person and most of them don't ever act on it and and the crush goes away and they continue in their marriage and and it's fine. But some people it's a you know they do act on it and they destroy their relationships and when they do it over and over I think these are the people they get called love addicts. >> So what are the gender differences here? I think there are stereotypical ones around why men or women stray but what what are you seeing the science actually shows and what are some of the differences you've heard in your office? >> Yeah. Well, in in the surveys when you ask men, um most men, a majority of men say that the reason that they had that they strayed was for a sexual opportunity. Um not necessarily anything emotional. Um women, it's that most women say that they uh got involved with somebody else because u uh because they needed something emotionally that they weren't getting in their marriage. Now, a lot of men and women both say uh it's more men than women, but but but a lot of both of the sexes say that they were really happy with their marriage when they had an affair. They weren't looking to get out of it. Um but they um there is a gender difference, it does seem, and that's pretty consistent in what motivates people to be unfaithful, that what the thing is that pulls them uh away from their partner enough to get involved with somebody else. Um I think you know just I I do think that this uh you know it's not necessarily a popular thing there there are people in our world today who who really want to deny that there are sex differences. I I just think we there's no um I think it's dangerous to deny basic sex differences. Um I do see differences. I think that um when you see women versus men who get into like 12step programs for uh sex addiction or love addiction, they're also very different. The men, they tend to use sex as a drug. It's just it's just a hit. It's just a it's just it's there's nothing emotional for most of them at all. Um for women, it it tends to be much more emotional. It's a getting some kind of emotional need met that um that they just weren't getting in their marriage. and and that may u that maybe what I was talking about before too. They just have crush after crush after crush or whatever. But um I do see a sex difference there uh for sure. Um and I just think we we should uh acknowledge that. Well, I want to unpack that that thing that you shared around most people identify as in a happy relationship would not like I would think most people would consider that it's usually when the relationship's rocky or at its breaking point that this is most likely to happen. >> Yeah, it's about half and half, right? So, because a little more than half of men and a little less than half of women say that they were happy with their partner. So that means about half overall of the people who are unfaithful were not. And so I think it is absolutely true that people who are unhappy in their marriage they that that is something that can promote uh infidelity for sure. >> Yeah. So in the the other half I'm I'm curious like that to me sounds very confounding. It feels like that is sort of the initial step that there's strain, there's stress, but it sounds more like this is exactly what you're arguing around the unconscious, the opportunistic situations that lead to the the infidelity. >> So in the people that are happy with their marriage, I do think it's more the opportunistic. Yeah. and the people that are unhappy. It can be very different because the over time relationship distress is an incredibly toxic thing and it can really be destructive and and it can lead to infidelity for many reasons most of which are pretty obvious. >> So what was the most surprising to you and and all of the the research for the book and then seeing actual clients in your office? You know, I think it it is um I I too, even to this day, I I am surprised at at how uh many people who are unfaithful uh love their spouse. It wasn't because they had uh ceased to love them. It wasn't because they uh didn't want the relationship to continue. It was for some other reason. and and um uh I think I uh I continue to be fascinated by you know the people who uh really experience their um urges either to have sex with somebody besides their spouse or to have some sort of emotional connection with somebody besides their spouse. Um even though they love their spouse um and and they experience these urges as kind of an alien force. Um that that's a just a fascinating uh thing to me. Uh and I think it really uh illustrates very starkly the the the fact that we have this these unconscious um systems in our brain that make suggestions that and and our unconscious mind does not consult with our conscious self. It certainly doesn't consult our the moral values that our conscious self holds before it issues its uh dictates or suggestions about what we do. Uh so I think I remain fascinated with that and and uh that's uh probably the main thing. >> Yeah. I think what's also, you know, what's come out of this conversation for me is then the the opportunity there is to change the forgiveness to heal and not necessarily that all of these situations are basically incompatible or can cannot heal or are broken, but there's a lot of opportunity and in infidelity for both partners to grow in a relationship to to heal. >> Absolutely. Um, I mean, I think that's that's uh well said and it's it's exactly right and that's what what you hope happens in in um uh in couple therapy and um yeah, it sometimes takes something pretty tragic and painful to make people stop and and pause and and um maybe this may particularly be true for men to make them um really, you know, look inside themselves and be able to share that. Um a lot of men that doesn't come naturally to and um but sometimes when when their relationship is on the line all of a sudden they they uh they are able to do that and I think many of them discover that it it is a very positive thing that that they develop a stronger connection to their their spouse and and uh really do love them more than they did before. So there there absolutely can be some some very happy endings that come out of it. Thank you so much for joining us, Glenn. Where can our audience find out more about your work in the book? >> Uh, well, I have a website. It's glennhutchinson.net. And thank you so much for having me. >> It was great. Thank you so much. >> Thank you.