The Hidden Cost of Chasing Career Success / Ida Persson / Episode #262

This is a service design show episode 262. [music] Design shapes how people think, feel, and act. That's its superpower. But that same power gets turned against people too in dark patterns, harmful products, systems that exploit both people and our planet. So where do you draw the line? And what does design look like when it's genuinely in service of something good? That is what we're digging into today. Hi, my name is Mark Fontine and this is the service design show where we try to figure out together what it actually takes to design services that work for people, for businesses, and of course for our planet. Our guest today is a person. you know, as a designer who's been asking some big uncomfortable questions about our field, like what happens when design gets weaponized and what would it look like to do design differently? She spent 20 years as a competitive swimmer. And for a long time, she ran her career the same way she swam, always chasing the next goal, never stopping. the feeling to feel the winds. The goalpost was always moving. A turning point came when Ido closed its Munich studio where she was working at the time. It forced her to rest, really rest, maybe for the first time, and realized that the secure path wasn't as secure as she had thought. In today's conversation, we get into the achievement threadmill and what it actually cost us. What it means to shift from chasing growth to something closer to flourishing. How to figure out what you're willing to pay to get paid and what it looks like to do design differently with community and dignity at the center instead of profit. What stuck with me is how much of a story is about unlearning. Letting go of beliefs she didn't even know she was carrying. That kind of training and two decades of competitive swimming teaches you to always push, always improve, never stop. And she brought all of that into her design career without questioning it. It took loing her job at IDO to create a space where she could finally ask what is all this running actually in service of the questions she raises about drive rest and what we're really chasing are worth sitting with no matter where you are in your career. So let's get into the conversation with a stick around because I'll catch you at the end with a few closing thoughts. My name is Mark Fontine and you are listening to the service design show. Welcome to the show. >> Thanks Mark. Really excited to be here. >> Yeah. Um we are going to jump straight into your history and background because you shared so many interesting things u with me and uh one of the things that I would like to start with is you told me that you were a very avid swimmer. You did it for 20 years uh on a high level very intense. Uh you brought all your energy and dedication uh to swimming and uh you also told me that you brought that same sort of drive and passion and strive towards success towards your design career. Um I'm curious because you seem to have sort of switched gears um and now have a different approach towards what progress means. Um what was the moment that you sort of realized hey this um fanatic approach towards driving towards success and progress might not be the thing that helps me uh to get where I need to be. >> Yeah. I think when we think about I don't really think about it as one moment because I feel like there are many different moments that kind of compound on top of each other and I feel like I'm still kind of in it. So my whole life I was very motivated like you said I was very focused on achieving and having done a sport like swimming it's every every little piece counts. So you're h one 100 one 100th of a second is first or second place and you're always kind of chasing this next goal and looking back I felt like I was never really happy with my accomplishments. You were always thinking okay okay I've won something but what's next? Uh you reach one ranking and then there's always people ahead of you. Uh and then when I started working, I also brought that into work of wanting to achieve, wanting to wanting my career to improve. Uh and kind of on this career ladder that we're kind of taught versus something that I believed myself. Uh I wasn't really doing it I was doing it because I was motivated, but it wasn't always because I had set these goals for myself. It was like, okay, you you become a graphic designer and then an art director and then a creative director. Um and then a couple of years ago when I left Ido, I took some time to rest. Uh and I decided that okay, if I were to go a different path, where do I go? And I think in that moment, I recognized that I have been running for so many years and I've been trying to reach something, but I'm never reaching it because the goalpost is always moving. And I think it was in that in that time. So it wasn't a moment, but it was more a period of time. I felt like okay maybe there is a different way uh and maybe I could actually find a way where I'm kinder to myself. I'm still achieving things. Uh but it is more from a place of yeah a place of kindness and a place of trying to see what is a more balanced approach I guess. >> So there's already uh so much to unpack here. We'll get into uh probably your story of leaving uh Ido and then sort of trying to find your way, find balance. But I want to briefly go back to uh the achievement aspect because with swimming it's very vivid like you look at the clock and you just see did I improve or not? >> Yeah. >> How did that play out in your design career? Because there like what what was the clock there for you? What was the thing? What was your scoreboard? >> Yeah. I actually remember when I started working. So I left swimming and then I started working and I remember thinking when you apply for a job it's not like you set a goal to get a job and you will get that job. You have to it's it's a little bit more out of your control. Even though in sports you have competitors and whatnot and you can't control what they do. Uh but I remember thinking oh it's it's actually very different and it's not really in your control. even if you work really hard, you might not get to what you want. Um, but I think for me it looked very much like always wanting to improve and always wanting to sharpen my skills. Uh, and maybe it wasn't so much about the level, but it was like, okay, I know this now. I need to find another thing to become better at. Um, and this like constantly trying to get better, which it's not always I think I was just going to say I think it's not always a negative thing. Like it's always helped me to learn a lot of things, meet a lot of cool people, but I think it's more like why are you doing it and what is it actually in service of in the end? >> And with sports, you're doing it because there is a competition and you can actually win and be can get first place and there's uh achievement. And with work um hopefully there is well I don't know was there competition for you? Did did you experience it as a competition? >> I no I never actually did um but I think even with swimming it's not always about beating the competition. It's about improving yourself as well and I think that's more of what I brought into the work of like always feeling like I want to feel like I'm getting better uh in the in the workplace as well and in my craft as well. So, um, that sounds like a pretty healthy ambition, right? Getting better, striving towards progress. Um, >> what where did it go wrong? >> Um, I think it's not knowing when to stop or not taking the time to actually feel the accomplishments or be happy about where you are. So if you're always kind of wanting to improve, you're not actually looking around and saying like, "Wow, I've actually done a lot. I've actually achieved a lot. Who I am is good." Um, and I think also in design, a lot of the times when I was younger, I took a lot of the feedback I was getting from others and it was very connected to me as a person. So if somebody critiqued my work, it felt like, oh, that means I am not good. versus being able to separate. Okay, this is the work. This is I didn't give the client what they needed in this moment. Uh that's not a reflection on me. And kind of learning that and learning finding the comfort in myself. Um which is an ongoing process. Um and it takes time. So, um, what I'm hearing you say is, and I recognize that a lot, like not taking time to celebrate the successes, [clears throat] whatever those might be, the the wins, the the achievements, the progress, even the the people around you that that you're still here and that you're not burned out and uh yeah, and and pausing there and sort of reflecting on that, right? That at least I can imagine that that's one of the aspects. Yeah, exactly. And I think I mean in swimming I definitely didn't do that. Um, and then at work and in my career I also didn't do that. Uh, and I'm still working on it of like how do I actually see the good things that I'm achieving or that I'm creating because of my joy for it as well. Um, and not always rushing towards something else. So, so what I think a lot of people who are listening right now will recognize this, but in your specific case, if you look back like what happened like as in what did you miss? Because you could say, you know, we'll celebrate later like looking back what I don't know what what did you miss? What was the thing that uh that didn't feel healthy or Yeah. healthy looking back? >> I don't know. I think it's it's it's a big topic, I think, cuz it's like if you're always driven to be somewhere where you're not, can you actually be happy in the moment that you're in? Um, and I think that comes back to a lot of, you know, therapy work and meditation and a lot of different ways of how do you actually find presence in the moment that you're in? Um, and if you're always running, you will never arrive anywhere cuz anywhere you get to, it's another crossroad. It's another thing and another kind of Yeah, you're always running. Um and I think part of it is like internal and part of it is external because we have pressures from the outside and the environment and you know family, parents, friends, all these uh societies telling us we have to be something, we have to achieve something even from a very young age. We're asked what do you want to be when you grow up? And we yeah this idea of of achieving things and what that looks like. Um and there's very few alternative ways to look at it that were kind of presented. So I think it's also that and our internal internal voices as well. >> Yeah. Uh I resonate a lot with the meditation and mindfulness work and and sort of uh holding those two things uh in your hands at the same time like striving towards progress and being ambitious while also celebrating and um yeah appreciating what you currently have in the moment. Now maybe this connects to uh something that you already shared is that uh at some point you got a pretty prestigious job from the outside. Uh you joined IDO in Munich and um yeah from the outside that seems like a pretty noble uh and aspirational position to be in. Um that job went away. Now, being someone who sort of tries to improve and strive to get better and sort of is climbing the ladder, how did that impact you when sort of that position went away and the the studio closed down? >> Um, actually, I think I think because the studio closed, I didn't feel so much kind of personal blame like I was fired because I didn't perform in a certain way. So, it was kind of this thing that happened to me that was out of my control. Uh, and kind of what I mentioned to you before is that it was the first time where I kind of felt like a job isn't the secure path. Uh, because we're kind of told that having a job is sec more secure than being freelance for example. Uh but in that moment I felt it's it's they decided uh and there was a business decision and it wasn't because I didn't perform well. I didn't do the things that they asked me to do but I still didn't get to the studio still closed. Um so yeah it it's that realization of what does that mean? What does that mean for for my future and kind of how I approach work as well? But I can imagine or at least I'm curious to hear your story like on Monday morning when you don't have to go into the studio anymore like having um a loss that um like when you're working for clients, you're working on projects, you have goals, you're you're striving towards you have something that you want to achieve. you can see again progress um on Monday morning when you don't have to go into the studio that's suddenly gone. That feels like a big shift to me. How again, how did you manage that? >> Yeah, I think it was a process of kind of managing over over a longer period of time, >> but I felt like I think also when when this happened, it was a little bit for me a blessing in disguise because I took some time to re like rest actually. I didn't try to get a new job right away and kind of jump on something uh in order to prove myself or in order to feel more secure. Uh I took some time to rest. And in that moment, I realized I'm really tired. I've actually been running, working really hard. I moved to Munich for IDO. I used to live in the US and then jumped into a new role right away. um kept going and worked really hard and it's it's a lot it was a lot of traveling and all these things and I really enjoyed it but I realized in that moment that okay I haven't really rested and that kind of brings me back a little bit to swimming it's like you're not really resting especially in a sport like that you're there's no offse kind of continuous you have to stay in shape you have to keep going um and that's what I've been doing at work as well I just kept going and kept going and I never really taken the time to really rest and recover in the way that that I might have needed to. >> How do you so this this um pressure to always keep running whether that's in a sport or uh at work. Uh I I think again all of us feel that to some extent because if you're not running uh your colleague will be and you don't want to fall behind. So like like how do you >> looking back how do you >> how can we find that space create that space to quote unquote rest because resting even though there is a lot of science on why that is important it doesn't feel productive it doesn't feel like you're making progress and it therefore it feels incompatible with >> the corporate environment >> yeah and I think it is incompatible with the corporate environment Because in the corporate environment, we have these quarter cycles and the year is moving at the same rhythm all the time. You kind of have to keep keep going. There's not a rest period and it's built that way. >> Unless you're in Sweden. [laughter] >> Yeah. Exactly. Then in the summers you're just it's closed. Everything everything is closed. >> But but in the US it's different. Yes. >> Yeah. Exactly. and there's no real rest period where you don't have to be productive and it's not a very natural kind of way of being. Um, and I think also it doesn't allow for different kinds of rhythms. So, for example, if you can't work as much during a certain period of time, like yes, we have sick leave and yes, we have these things, but that doesn't mean the competition, the pressure of the competition stops. Um, and I think our society isn't really built for different kinds of rhythms to exist at the same time. And we feel somehow inadequate if we can't keep up with this this pace that has been pres presented to us, which is very unnatural, I think, in a way. >> So, uh this is pretty um um it's a good reality check. But what does that mean? because uh a lot of us listening will be in that position where we are part of a small or big company that does have these >> quarterly yearly goals, two week sprints. I don't know what they invent next, but um you're telling us it's important to rest. We know that it's important to rest. Uh how do we deal with this paradox? What any insights? Yeah, I mean I think it's super it's if somebody has the solution, I would like to I would like to hear it. Um but I think it's also thinking about how rest doesn't have to look the same for everyone and the same all the time. So in the beginning when I started kind of realizing I've been working too hard, I've been doing too much. Okay, the solution is resting. So what is resting? Laying down, doing nothing, just just resting. But maybe rest doesn't look like that for everybody. Maybe it's like re-engaging with your creative practice in your spare time just for the sake of it. So you're creating something with no goals with no nothing. Maybe that creates a sense of rest. Maybe that helps you find the spark again. So I don't think it's always this either you're resting or you're rushing like what are the different phases that you can kind of find in between. Um and exploring some of that as well. So rest is also related to joy. So if you have more joy, you can actually feel more rested in the other aspects. Um and that doesn't it doesn't solve the corporate culture that a lot of us find ourselves in. U but I think it creating these moments in your own practice uh I think can help a little bit. I uh recall a recent conversation with Sarah Vaka Butcher who also uh was very explicit about this that we have to be mindful of how much of our identity we tie up into our professional >> lives. uh and that it's pretty healthy to >> make sure that you have a balance of what you do as a way to pay the bills versus just doing stuff for the sake of doing things, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think especially with creative work because I recently wrote this piece about it's it's called or it speaks about the idea what are you willing to pay to get paid. So a lot of times with our creative work we're like okay I want to be paid as a creative and then you end up kind of selling your soul in a way or selling your passion to get paid. And I'm not saying creatives shouldn't be paid. they should be paid uh a lot of money, but it's like if I'm now if I now feel like my creative work is just a task list and I'm just churning out things and I'm not actually doing the thing that I originally loved so much, is the price too high for for doing this? And I think it's just reflecting on that as well. Uh what price are we actually paying for for it? And on the topic of price and what we're willing to pay for it, you also shared a story with me in our uh preparation where you mentioned that you feel design has been what's the word misused or uh let's let's go with misused for um for purposes that we might not support as as a design community. I'm curious how did you get to that perception and uh yeah tell us a little bit more about that. >> Yeah, I mean when I was in design school when I started as a designer I always felt like design has this power to create change. We can use it to solve problems. We can come up with new solutions is very exciting. Uh and it uses human behavior psychology. we can design different environments. And I think that's been kind of co-opted in a bit where yes, we can use human psychology to get people to do things, but if the thing we're getting them to do is harmful for them or for the environment, then I don't think that way of doing design is actually beneficial. Um, so I see it used in very destructive ways a lot of the times, but at the same time I have this hope and I see that it can be used for good. Uh, and that's kind of where my my heart is and what I want to explore more and seeing how that what would that actually look like. Have you ever been in a situation yourself where you felt like I'm not going to let design be len to contribute to this or yeah my design practice >> um yeah there's been many many times like in client conversations or uh during different projects where we've kind of asked the client to look at things in a different way. Um there was one one time when I was working uh in the marketing space a couple of years ago and I was asked to be on this project and the client was a gun manufacturer and when I was asked to join this join this project at the beginning I felt like okay my boss asked me can you join this conversation is that okay and I was like okay yeah I can go join this conversation and I sat in on the conversation and um during that time I was very torn. I was like, "Okay, should I say no? Should I join? Should I, you know, because it was also my career and it was my position in the company and whatnot. Um, and in the beginning I kind of said like yes, I can be part I can lead this." Um but then after a couple of meetings and a couple of kind of orienting myself around this um there was one moment where the client was doing this webinar and they were kind of pushing for lesser gun restrictions in California and they were pushing people like go out to vote um so we can have fewer gun restrictions. And I remember in that moment I just felt like I can't do this. I have to not be on this client because I could I just I can't design for this. Um and in that moment like I told my bosses and they were really, you know, understanding and I didn't have to. Um but even though I'm really passionate about these topics, human rights and everything, it was still it was still a challenging decision for me. uh because you were in this environment where the power might shift or you might feel you might not get as many opportunities. Um so yeah um that was that's one example of when >> yeah and this is like the I would say almost a classic example which is on the like guns is a pretty extreme topic so it's it's good to use um and it it makes sense that it could have clashed with your values and your norms and like the world that you want to create most often projects and our clients are a lot less extreme. Yeah. >> And like you said, then it becomes even harder to um sort of draw a line and say >> uh I'm not going to cross over this line. I'm go a line. I'm going to like this will be good for my career and it's just three months and like >> Yeah. Um, again looking back on that experience, do you now have a a different or better set of guidelines for yourself to know when to say no and when to keep on continuing on a project because the sort of and then I'll stop the the alternative explanation um that somebody could give here is well if I at least contribute here from a human- centered perspective like I'll have the influence to maybe push this in the right direction. Like that's the alternative conversation that we're having. So I'm curious like how has this shaped your thoughts and perspectives on where to draw the line? >> Yeah, it is a very tricky conversation and a really tricky question because I think it all depends on circumstances. So if you for example you're in a situation where you're struggling to pay your bill and you need the money our decisions will be very different than if you say you had savings that you could actually forego this this thing. So I don't think it's a lot of the decisions we make are not moral decisions. They're actually practical decisions and we have to do them sometimes. And I think when trying to do say design for good, it's important to recognize this that it looks very different for different people depending on their circumstances. So for example, if you're caring for family and you're paying all this stuff for, you know, your your parents, for example, if you're supporting them financially, it looks very different. So I think it's also recognizing that um the situation that you're in and doing the best you can. But I think for me it's also when you think about design for good is often like these how do you create the optimal project like doing this checklist of like you should be doing this you should engage in the community in certain way and all these best practices that you can do but then there's the reality and I'm sure you're familiar with this. You you want to do things in a certain way and then the deadlines and there's not enough money and there's always these things. So I think for me it's like first of all deciding what you're not willing to work for. So that might be like specific type of clients or specific type of topics. But then it's also like how can I do more do the smaller things within the circumstances that I'm in. So even if I am okay, I have to work for this client now, but are there ways for me to kind of have the conversations with the client, bring in more inclusive tools, like doing those little things if you're kind of in a situation that might not be ideal or might not be the optimal for you. Like like you said, like [clears throat] there's probably a list of things you can make that are nogo area and that are clear nos, but the majority of the work that you'll take on is uh is a messy thing of compromises. And like you said, the what are you willing to pay that differs depending on the context, the situation, the time >> uh that you're in. And um that is that is a yeah it's a conversation you're having with yourself all the all the time. >> Yeah. And I think it's also beneficial to brainstorm with others. So if you're facing like a gray zone project and should I take it or not? You can always collaborate with others and say hey is this would you do it? What would you do in my situation? And then I think other people can also be brought in to give you advice on um where to kind of if it's worth it or not or if it's yeah something you should do. >> It's um you're in a interesting position right now because sort of you escaped the corporate lifestyle. You already said it was maybe a blessing in uh disguise. Um being our own boss uh calling the shots. Uh that's maybe an even greater responsibility because you can't blame anyone else for giving you a project like you you've decided on this. >> Yeah. >> Um maybe um it would be interesting to to know a little bit more about what happened after you left the studio like how has your practice evolved and what kind of challenges projects are you taking on these days? >> Yeah, it's a always evolving practice I would say. Um, like I mentioned in the beginning, I spent some time resting and kind of recalibrating what I wanted to do. Um, and I decided that I wanted to focus on social impact and climate work. And I also decided that I wanted to put some time aside for my own personal projects because I felt kind of over the years I had been yeah kind of what I mentioned before my creativity had become a little sometimes things felt like a checklist versus >> yeah transactional I can imagine. >> Exactly. Exactly. Okay. And I wanted to find okay I en what do I enjoy just creating for the sake of it just for me and how can I engage with others in this uh so a lot of what I do like I mentioned is focus on social impact and climate related projects so a little bit of research and a little bit of more hands-on design. Um and I have come to the conclusion that I do best when I can do the why and the what and then also the how. So sometimes I'm kind of engaged to do just the how. And I find that that's not my happy place. My happy place is kind of when I get to explore the full picture and the strategy behind something versus uh more of the executional stuff. >> How have you incorporated your um let's call them side projects or your your passion project? Have you structured that very um in a very structured way or is this something that happens at hog? Like how are you making sure that you that you aren't running all the time anymore? >> Yeah, exactly. Um yeah, so one of my big side projects is called design ships shifts where we're exploring a better future for and through design. >> It sounds like work, [laughter] >> right? It sounds like work. Yeah. >> So what what makes this a passion or a side project for you? >> Uh I mean it's it is it's a big part of like my time and where I spend a lot of my time. Um but I think because of how it started. So it just started as provocations and I was thinking about these big design topics uh and kind of the future that I wanted to see and I started putting it out there and then getting responses for people. So I think I see it still as a side project because it's been growing very organically and I was very intentional about not making it a thing. So it's like it's not a podcast, it's not a magazine, it's not a thing before I'm kind of exploring it. So it's more of doing research about these topics and then seeing how it comes to life. And I think now maybe this is a good in this conversation because it's also I'm thinking about how to make it more of not a side thing but actually my main thing uh and what would that look like as far as collaborations as far as the things I'm producing. How do I solidify it a little bit more? Um so yeah this is also like this conversation is also like a push for me of like yeah maybe it's not actually a side thing anymore. Yeah, I'm already uh imagining it's always a thing like it cannot be not [laughter] a thing, right? Even if it's a a concept or a research project, but um like is there money involved? Is there money flowing somewhere in the system in the side project at the moment? And and does that influence how you feel about it? >> Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. So, I haven't really found ways to monetize it yet and I'm very resistant. So, I don't know. it have a little bit of resistance to it. So maybe that's also Yeah, this makes me think how do we actually quantify work? What is work actually? Is it just what we get paid for or is it also all the things that we're doing? Um but yeah, so I've been looking at I want to solidify it a bit more and create some courses. I also want to make a book out of it. Um and also find more solid collaborations with people. So, I've collaborated with people around events. We hosted events together, but what what what would it look like to collaborate with organizations, for example, uh that want to do design differently and kind of want to challenge the status quo that we're in, and what would that look like? >> You're opening a lot of new opportunities for me to uh ask questions. Thank you for that. So, challenging the status quo and doing design differently. what's the status quo and what do you want to do differently? [laughter and gasps] >> Uh I think status quo a lot when it comes to product design for example I think it's around designing for individual users um and a lot of the times the profits goes to private entities and what would it look like to do it differently. So for example, designing for collective sharing economies, for example, where not everybody needs to buy a drill, but we actually have a way that people can share things with one another. What would it look like to shift the power so the people in the communities hold the power of the solutions versus in the end it's a a corporate uh client for example? What would that look like? And there are a lot of people doing this type of work. Um but yeah adding to that conversation and adding to that work uh that body of work is what I'm passionate about and also how do we shift our relationship with nature. So now we see nature is a resource for us to use but what would it actually look like if nature was a a relational we had a relationship with nature where nature is part of me and I'm part of nature which we are but h how do we get to feel that? Uh so we're less likely to exploit. So we're less likely to take more than what we need. Um because we are running out of re ree as a resource is is not really working the concept anymore. I might be completely wrong, but I think I saw an article recently where a river got its own rights and there was a conversation >> Yeah. >> a few years ago already here on the podcast where we talked about this specific uh topic like how can we give nature around us uh equal rights or at least rights uh in uh exactly in house use. Yeah. Yeah. So, design shifts and how long have you been doing this and what have you found so far? Because you mentioned it's a research project. Maybe not a project because then it's a thing. It's it's a it's a thing without being a thing. What have >> what have you discovered? What have you learned? >> Yeah, like I mentioned, it started as provocacia and then very early on I found that a lot of people care about these topics. So, in the beginning, I was like, "Oh, is it just me or is other people also thinking about this?" And there are so many people already thinking about this. And I really appreciate the conversations I've been able to have with people. And a lot of the topics I explore, they're very big topics. You could do a PhD on some of these topics, but that's not what I'm doing. Uh, and also leaning into the people that are doing this kind of work and how do we create those collaborations as well. Sometimes I get push back from people who say like, well, I work for a company. They're asking me to use dark patterns to create this. What am I supposed to do? And I'm not saying like we all quit our jobs and kind of enter this new system that doesn't even exist. But I think it's how do we create the shifts. So say we have the status quo. On the other hand, we have this future that we want and then what are the small steps, the small shifts that we can make to get closer to it. So, it doesn't mean, you know, quit everything and >> go live in a cabin. It means actually doing things within the system as well. Um, while we're dreaming of a of a different of a different system. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, instead of a a revolution uh an evolution on some fronts. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I mean we might come to a point where we need a revolution as well. But it's like we we can do things now. And I think for me that brings me hope and it brings me the possibility of making change now even at in smaller ways in our daily lives. >> How have you managed to not get even more anxious while exploring these topics? because uh we're already overwhelmed and you're opening a lot and my experience with doing research is is that you see all the things that aren't working yet or all the shortcomings, all the gaps. Um you're exploring these topics like and you you're still hopeful. How did you do that? >> I think it's it's a mix of sometimes entering your own bubbles where other people are also hopeful. So I don't think it's good to always be in your bubble, but sometimes I intentionally enter spaces where I know that people are encouraging that people will say, "Oh, I have this idea." And they will say, "Yes, go for it. You can do it." And I intentionally enter those spaces because I need encouragement and I need this hope uh within me especially when things are not the best. Um and then also I think design shifts is for people who are already ready to shift. I'm not trying to convince somebody who have never thought about these topics before or don't really care about the environment or don't really care about uh community impact. I'm not trying to convince them. I'm trying to help the people that are already kind of ready for something new and they're tired of the current way. Uh I'm trying to help them along the way. And I think that that also helps me be in the spaces where people are like, "Yes, I also want to do this. I also feel like this is needed. Um, and I always keep coming back to the question like what is it all in service of? Like why are we doing like what is it in service of? And that's I don't know that question drives me in a lot of the things that I do. >> Let's let's answer that question. So why in what service are you doing this spending your time and energy and passion on this topic? The one line that I come back to is in service of human and planetary flourishing. And it goes back to the where we started the conversation around we're not in service of growth. Like growing isn't the solution anymore. What is flourishing actually look like uh for myself, for the people around me, for the planet. And that doesn't mean we're all beautiful gardens all the time. It also means that we're decaying, we're changing, we're letting the soil rest. uh as we're trying to achieve something new. Uh but yeah, so it's this idea of shift yeah shifting away from the growth mentality towards a flourishing mentality without it being just Yeah. Like I said, just rainbows and sunshine. >> Growth is one stage of flourishing. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And we're we're kind of told that we should be growing all the time like we mentioned in the beginning of Yeah. We have quarters quarters of the year and you should be growing every quarter and should be improving all the time. But what does it look like actually to flourish? >> I'm sure one of the big tech CEO who always listens to this podcast will say, you know, all these layoffs that we're doing right now. [laughter] Uh that's part of the flourishing cycle where we're sort of shedding uh leaves. But I'm not sure if that's uh that's what we mean here. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can justify any decision. Um, even if the decision isn't for good, I think. Uh, there's always narratives that you can grasp onto to justify things. >> Yeah. Um, all right. So, you're working, you're exploring these areas. You're trying to find alternatives, looking what steps we can take today instead of waiting for radical shifts. Um you already mentioned okay looking for maybe the next step a book a course um sound like quite um traditional forms solidifications I was curious how are you applying sort of the things that you're looking forward the shifts to this project itself like shared by the community sharing economy >> what are your thoughts on Yeah. Um I think from the start I've been trying to do that. So for example, I've been hosting a lot of online events and I try to host them with somebody else. So each event has been hosted with somebody else. This week I'm hosting something in Berlin with with a collaborator. Uh and it's also an opportunity to share this space. So they've been doing a lot of work in this topic and then I come in with my lens and how do we craft the space together. So a lot of around collaboration with other others um and also I've been developing some different smaller tools that people can use and there are more invitations than like this is the one way that you have to do it and positioning as that as well. So you can use this if you want to uh move away from this idea of frictionlessness for example and create more meaningful experiences. here are some advice. Here's some advice around it. Um, and I think one big thing is that I've been trying not it's kind of what I mentioned before, but not productize. And I think that's kind of what I mentioned like what is the thing, but seeing as leaving it open and ambiguous in like what it is because it's it feels a little bit like I'm trying to productize it if I'm leaning too much towards it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A book, a pro podcast, any medium [clears throat] in which you start to capture it, it it becomes productized and sort of you risk of making it into a recipe. Uh >> yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I'm not saying what's the alternative. >> Yeah. Like that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying those things are bad. Um but I think it's just holding myself back a little bit. If someone's like, "Oh, you should make a podcast. This should be a podcast." And I'm like, I ask myself, well, I enjoy producing a podcast because it's also like even though it's easier to do things nowadays, like I would want to do it really well. I would want to, you know, curate it in the way that I um that I like. So, it's asking like um is this something I would want to spend my time doing? Um, and I have this post that's on the wall that says, "Every new idea comes with its own administrative tasks and I try to remind myself of that. Even if it's like a really cool creative idea, it will still require a lot of effort and >> there's opportunity costs. There's always opportunity cost." >> Exactly. Exactly. But it's interesting because you mentioned that um there is sort of a resistance towards a podcast. I don't know maybe a book or a course but writing articles which sounds or hosting events. >> Yeah. >> Uh less friction there. Question mark. >> Yeah. Maybe I don't know. I mean I've been writing for a long time so maybe it's also because it feels more natural. uh and it's not it feels more emergent so I can kind of do it on my own term versus or maybe it's like a commitment I I don't want to commit to something bigger [laughter] so like oneoff events or one event every month it's doesn't feel as as like solidified um so yeah I mean this conversation is also making me think like why why am I doing why am I resisting it as well >> this is also called a mindfulness podcast helping uh helping our guests to reflect and sort of think uh about the big topics that they're working on. So um when you say that you're leaving this open uh do you have a vision and hope where this potentially would be in two 3 years or is that also something where you're like I have no clue? >> No, I mean I think like so I mentioned the course. I would love to create a course that people could take to engage with these topics more. I would love to do the book. So that's one part. And then I would also love to explore some of some of these topics through projects. So if I partnered with uh organizations that are working on shifting the way we're doing things uh or who want to kind of get to the root cause of problems um I would love to do that. Um so those are kind of the three different buckets. So it's it's not all [laughter] >> you have a audience of millions right now listening to you uh when you say you want to partner with organizations and um maybe individuals as well who are you looking for like when when should [snorts] somebody reach out >> I think it can be in any stage but definitely somebody who's willing to do things differently and have this um exploratory mindset so and kind of somebody who who wants to lead the change uh in some of these areas. Who wants to individuals who want to do design differently, but also organizations who want to support communities, who want to support nature and feel like the current way isn't really working for them, uh, and they want to create something that's different. >> I'm I'm going to sort of force you into a box and, uh, get you in a very uncomfortable position. Okay. give me like your your two top dream projects or challenges to work on. >> I will tell you one project that I've seen done and I really love it. uh which is there's a there's a jail in the US where they created a yoga program and the inmates are um doing yoga and it shows like how it influenced them as people and how it helps them find center feel more confident in themselves uh feel more feel better about themselves and that's a type of project that I really look up to and really appreciate. because it's about it's about human dignity. It's about seeing people as people and seeing how the external environment actually influences the internal conditions that we find ourselves in. Um and that's something that I'm really as part of design shift I'm really passionate about. It's we've been kind of taught this idea of meritocracy where it's up to you if you succeed or not. But I very much believe that the environment influences our ability to flourish uh and achieve things. And how do we create the conditions for success for people and I think that can be done through design through the spaces through the conditions that we create for people uh and the resources that we provide the services that we that we uh bring to life. >> Amazing. I didn't know that example. Sounds pretty cool. Uh >> yeah, it's really cool. So that's one, but I want to hear a second one. Like your dream client. If I'm working right now in organization XYZ and I'm working on challenge XYZ, like what would that be? I don't know if I could say like the specific one, but an organization that's working on systematic challenges. So even if it's like food, food systems or um city city design uh anything that connects to the system and also who are looking to for ways to both focus on humans and nature into one. Um so I think that's a really important aspect where we have to bring it's not I just feel like there's no social change without climate change. There's no climate change without social change. They all go together and we need to approach uh projects in that way as well. >> Thank you for uh for for working with me through this. Uh I can totally see how um food ecosystem could be a very interesting space to try to do things differently and there are tons of companies of course that are doing this. I'm thinking about the coffee brand that I'm purchasing that has moved a large part of the economy around coffee to the actual country of origin rather than moving it here like they have a whole story around this. Um >> yeah but I'm sure that there are others as well. >> Uh nice. So it we went on a very interesting journey together in this conversation which started with uh swimming sports performance progress. Now we are talking about um >> the supply chain of the things we eat and drink. >> Yeah. >> How can we bring this together? Like how do you feel the start connects to the end where we are right now? I mean, I think it connects because it's about unlearning a lot of the things that we've been taught around what is progress look like. So, what does progress look like for me as an individual? What does success look like? What does it look like for our industry? What does it look like for our cities, uh, the world in general? And what are actually the things that we value? Um, because we can think about, oh, we need to grow, we need to achieve these things. But what is it all in service of? And what do we come back to? What do we actually value as people? And it doesn't mean everybody has to value the same things, but how can we not lose track of these inherent things that I think a lot of us are actually longing for. So it's like community, connection to community, the ability to support our families, um the ability to be in nature without it being too hot outside, for example. How do we actually connect to some of these inherent things that that make us who we are and that makes us not want to run away, makes us not want to cover up our stress with achievements or or all these other things that we do sometimes >> and and not getting burnt out uh in the process because I think um if you like that's the price you eventually pay for not resting like nature will force you [laughter] to rest. >> Yeah. >> Whether you like it or not. Um >> so, um two more questions, at least two more questions. If I'm interested in the work that you're doing, what's the best place to go to or yeah, find out more. >> Uh yeah, so design.org, that's where I post basically everything that I do. Uh there's also a link to the blog posts that are longer on Substack. uh also connecting on LinkedIn. I'm always open to chat about things uh to collaborate with people. Uh so that would be be the best place. We also host some online events uh and yeah keeping an eye out for those. >> Nice. Okay. We'll make sure as always to include the links in the show notes. And before you go, uh, we already asked a lot of important big questions and that's the thing we like to do here on the podcast to ask questions because often questions are far more interesting than uh the actual answers and we also want to end with that. So if you could leave us with something to think about uh after we are done listening to this conversation like what do you feel would be a good question? I think that I would say thinking about the question, what brings you joy and really thinking about that um maybe actually on a walk because different things are activated. But yeah, what brings you joy? >> That's a good question and I'm going to reflect on that once again. >> Yeah, I would love to hear your answer after this. You have to share. Yeah, while you were sharing this already immediately a few things flashed through my mind and I was questioning my life decisions. Um [laughter] so uh we'll leave it at this. Thanks so much for sharing awesome journey that you're on. Um thank you >> like keep on going. Uh very curious what the next milestone will be. I hope a lot of people will reach out to you and sort of join you on this on this trip. So thanks again for coming on and sharing this. >> Yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed the conversation. >> Before you head off, I want to leave you with one final thought. What I keep coming back to is how much of this conversation was about unlearning. Letting go of ideas about success, security, and progress that we didn't even choose. We just inherited them. Story is a reminder that finding balance isn't about doing less. It's [music] about doing things for the right reasons. And knowing your red line, which you won't compromise on, is one of the most valuable things you can figure out, preferably before you need it. And then there is joy. That was the question she left us with, and it's worth sitting with. What actually brings you joy? Not what looks impressive or what you think you should say. What actually lights you up for our field? I think these questions are getting really urgent. As the pressure to produce keeps [music] intensifying, the designers who thrive are the ones who know their values, know their limits, and haven't lost a thread of why they started doing this in the first place. Huge thanks to for sharing her journey so openly. I hope you're walking away from this one with a bit more clarity or at least a few better questions. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, you can do me one big favor. Click the like button on this video and leave a short comment if you haven't done so already. Not to feed the algorithms, but to let me know whether or not we are on the right track by addressing topics like this. Finally, [music] thanks for hanging out with me today. I know you have a million things you could be doing, so I really appreciate you spending your time over here. My name is Mark Fontine, and I look forward to having you with us again for a new conversation on the service design show. Take care and see [music] you