The Good Oil Podcast - Episode 36 - Alon Roth-Snir

[music] >> Hey now, welcome to the show. Where the wind's blowing strong and the truth can flow. This is the good oil. Catch a vibe today with Canteros leading us all the way from the heart of >> Welcome to the good oil podcast. Let's have a look and see what's in the humid or this week. We have an interesting cigar here. It's Leaf by Oscar Valladares. It's the 10th anniv- 10th anniversary Corojo Toro. It's 6-in by 52. It's from Honduras. And it's a medium plus. So, this will give you a a bit of an extra kick in the nicotine levels. Instead of having a plastic, you know, cellophane wrapper, Oscar Valladares always Valladares likes to wrap his cigars in a tobacco leaf. There's nothing in here other than tobacco. But, this will be a mild plus, give you a little bit of a a kick, and it'll be a good smoke. You can access these fine premium cigars by joining the Passionados or the Hemingway Club at canteros.nz. Welcome to the good oil podcast episode 36. And with me is the ambassador for Israel, Elon Roth. Welcome. >> Good morning. Thank you very much for inviting me. Happy to see you come. >> Yeah, you know that I visited Israel in 2014. It's you know, 12 years ago now. And I imagine I was impressed with what I saw and everything that I saw in Israel then. And I imagine it's progressed significantly since that time as well. But, before we get started on talking about Israel and what your job is, I think it'd be quite good for the for the listeners and the watchers of this podcast to understand what makes you tick, where you're from. Obviously, Israel, but you know, what what how you grew up what you did in the army cuz everybody's been in the army and how you then got into being a diplomat. >> Oh, that's a very interesting story. I was born in Israel, yes, as you say, in Haifa. Have you been to >> I've been to Haifa. It's a beautiful city. >> Yeah, exactly on the mountain mountain Carmel. You know, everyone that even reads the Bible understands where is mountain Carmel without being in Israel. And my father worked he was an engineer electronics engineer. So he worked on the water management systems of Israel at the time. And at that time we built in the beginning of the 60s. I was born in 61. So you can calculate my my age. I'm not a young person anymore. >> You're only 7 years older than me. >> Oh, you see you see you see and so we traveled in Israel. I think we changed four or five different addresses in Israel going after with my father and after my father behind my father when he was progressing with the a system of water management that we had at the time. So we lived in Nazareth for example in the north and then we went south towards Tel Aviv and then a bit southern of Tel Aviv southern point of Israel and then we came back to Tel Aviv and I lived there for a while. I did my school high school in Tel Aviv, yeah. And then I went to the army as you say every Israeli goes to the army. I was in an infantry unit. I was an officer at the time. And [snorts] you know, in Israel we do reserves afterwards. So, I was for few years in the reserves as well. I studied and now the question will come I'm sure immediately. I studied engineering. >> Yeah. >> I studied surveying at the time. >> I guess if your father was an engineer you knew had to be an engineer. >> Exactly. Exactly. Had to. I don't know. My brother never agreed to be a had you have to. I was a have to boy. So, I went I studied this. I worked two years. I went back to Haifa and I worked for two years in Haifa in that. And then one day I took a bold decision. And I passed the exams of uh the foreign ministry and I was accepted as a cadet for the foreign ministry. It was 1986 the end of 86 beginning of 87. And since then I am a diplomat. I would have never thought I would become a diplomat, but I became one. >> And uh and where have you been posted? >> Ooh, >> [snorts] >> that's even more interesting. I was I had the privilege of beginning in Africa. I served for 3 years in Cameroon in the beginning of the 90s of the previous century. Very interesting 3 years. If you if you will permit me to say, out of 40 years, yes I'm now this year I'm 40 years in the foreign service. I would say that those were the 3 years that in in which I really felt that I'm doing something that is more than just representing the state of Israel in Cameroon and in few other countries in Africa on the same time, but I felt that I'm doing something for the people. You have the chance of doing aid program and cooperation program and send many Cameroon sent many Cameroon's to Israel to be better in education and in industry and agriculture etc. And when they came back, I was with them and I really felt that out of all the missions that I've done afterwards, seven missions that I've done afterwards, this was the most significant one, you know, heart-wise. >> Right. >> And not just representing Israel, which is very important and this is the the main issue. Then I served twice in the European Union in the embassy that we have to the European Union in Brussels. I had the privilege of working in the European Parliament for 3 years as well in Strasbourg in France. >> Mhm. >> Uh, which was a very unique experience in which I had a chance of seeing this European Union evolving from only few countries towards the the very big organ it is today. A very interesting work in which I had the privilege again of participating in the build-up of two of Israel's most important agreements with the European Union, the association agreement and later on the neighborhood agreement that is being called, which encompassed as well the Barcelona process and cooperation within the Mediterranean with Arab countries and European countries. Very interesting experience. After that, I served in a country in which, you know, as an Israeli diplomat, um, your heart is just feel feeling joy almost on a daily basis in >> In Jordan, right? >> Yes, to serve, to to represent Israel in an Arab country for 3 years, this is an experience. You really feel what it means to make peace. Not just the wording, not just the agreements. >> Cuz Jordan and and Egypt were the first countries to make peace with Israel. >> Exactly. Exactly. And I came to Jordan in 2008 when we had already um I would say it was possible to envisage programs and and projects and even to make them come true on the spot. So again, I felt like you know, plowing a very fertile land that just wanted to be to be plowed. And I had very good friends there. And again, to be an Israeli diplomat in an Arab country in the Middle East is very very unique experience. Uh not just as I say, not just for the brain, for the heart as well. >> Yes. >> Then I served in London as deputy head of mission for few years. And then I was ambassador in Norway and Iceland and few other small postings. And then I came here to to New Zealand. The first time I'm in the Pacific. >> Yeah, you've been here for 18 months now. >> Almost. >> Almost 18 months. >> Almost. >> How have you found New Zealand? >> Very interesting. Very interesting, very diverse, very challenging for Israel nowadays as again, I don't have to tell you. Uh but beautiful country, very nice people. Uh I like the atmosphere. I like the the Kiwis. I like this feeling of very modern and very sophisticated country from the one hand and still kind of uh new things every day Uh and you see how you plow your land and you almost every day not just agriculture in other issues as well and it's a very unique experience after being you know in the center of Europe for so many years and then in the mediter in the Middle East for a while it's very interesting to be in a country that is far away and from the world. >> It's about as far as you can get. >> Exactly if you are not a penguin I think this is the farthest that you can get and and to feel how you have here a different mentality different philosophy of life different view of the world from far away but still again very much engaged and connected to the world in in many aspects. So it's very easy life here but challenging for me as as an Israeli as a diplomat as someone who is used to be in the center which is unfortunately for the time being Europe and the Middle East. >> [snorts] >> And what's next? Are you going to retire shortly? >> Retirement. >> Retirement I'm sure I hope the viewers have calculated already my my age >> [laughter] >> and in Israel we retire in the age of 67 and I think I will retire. >> Yeah I think you will. >> [laughter] >> And then what will you do? Travel? You spent a lifetime of traveling. >> Exactly I think I'll travel even though I have family in Israel I have three kids I have four grandchildren so I'm sure that every grandmother and grandfather that sees me now understand how difficult it is to be far away from your family. >> Yeah. >> Especially in times where travel is not as easy as it used to be until few years ago at least towards the Middle East. So it is difficult so I will find a way to >> easier to get to Israel. Now, when I went, you had to go via Korea, and then you'd take a Korean Air flight to Tel Aviv. Except I couldn't do that. I had to go to Paris, and then El Al back to So, I had to fly 5 hours past Israel, and then 5 hours back into Israel to [laughter] do that. But I I believe Emirates is now flying >> Exactly. That's what I want to say. This is the new Middle East, and this is even fascinating even for me, as someone who lives there, who knows quite well the neighborhood. Um, the fact that you can fly um, almost constantly from the Emirates or from Jordan towards Israel, and from here to there, yes, it's a long flight, but it's a one flight, so it's not a big deal. >> three flights a day that go to Dubai >> from here. >> From here. Right. So, it's easy to get to Israel now, because you can take a direct flight >> Exactly. >> to to uh Dubai, and then Emirates into into Israel. >> Exactly. And you speak about three flights daily from here to Dubai, but there are more than 10 flights from Dubai and Abu Dhabi to Israel, on a daily flights, which is a new phenomenon. >> in Yeah, when I was in when I was in Israel in 2014, it was unthinkable that there would be flights from Arab countries into Israel. >> Exactly. And uh even though I flew with Arab airlines towards Israel already in the past, from Egypt and from Jordan, but the I think this is the new Middle East, uh at least from our point of view, that is not conflicts and wars even uh every now and then, but it's cooperation, and it's the links. And you know, beyond I always say, it's It's to sign agreements, it's nice to agree. It's nice to give declarations. But do you have real cooperation? For example, do you have flights, direct flights, a few a day? This is for me the beginning of the real connection between peoples. >> trade, and then you've got >> Exactly. >> uh expertise going backwards and forwards. >> Exactly. >> you've got no reason to have a war with these people. >> I think that these people and these people took a very bold decision that yes, we still have issues on the table, not between us, but issues in the region. There will always be issues in the region, in every region in the world. But do you bypass it, and do you put positive agenda on the table and not just the negative one that we see unfortunately lately? And I'm very happy it happened. So, for me, it is translated to direct flights, many direct flights from Abu Dhabi and Dubai to Israel, as I said before, but it's much beyond that. It's much bigger than that. It represents totally different perception on how we cooperate and deal. >> Has that been as a result of the Abraham Accords? >> Yes. >> So, Donald Trump got people together, worked out a an accord to say enough of this, you know, fighting and bickering and things like that. Let's work on a framework for working together. >> Exactly. And I totally agree. You know, I studied some engineering at the time, and I remember that there I was told time and again, time and again, don't look on a point, look on a trend. And I think that once >> of applies to politics, you know? That I people always say, "What do you think of that poll?" You know, I said, "No, no. Don't look at the poll. Look at the trend." >> Exactly. And I look at trends, and I say that the Abraham Accords, apart from the fact that they it was beautiful moment in which we signed them and everyone applauded and nice articles etc. I think you look on the trend afterwards in many aspects, in many fields and you see trend that is positive. So for me Abraham Accords are a new trend. They're saying as I said before, yes, we still have very serious issues on the table, many of them bilaterally, multilaterally, etc. But we created different trend, trend of cooperation and the flights are one part of this. Without the flights is again, you are there, I'm here, but do we talk? Do we cooperate? Do we converse? Do we commerce? And with flights you do all of this. >> Well, I think an indicator from someone from who lives in New Zealand looking at at at what's happened in the Middle East particularly immediately after October 7th. Is I think there was a miscalculation there. Um on behalf of Hamas. They were looking at the points, not the trend. Because I think they expected that when they invaded Israel that the rest of their world would rise up and and help them. [clears throat] And I said to people at the time when they said what your take on this, you know, you've been there, what's your take on this? I said my take on this is watch what happens with Dubai with the United Arab Arab Emirates, with Qatar, with Jordan. Syria you couldn't really work out what was happening there and Egypt. They're immediately with borders and things like that around and have those ties with Abraham Accords. If Hamas has miscalculated, they won't get any support from those countries. And as time went on in the weeks and the months following, yes, there was some bellicose posturing from those countries, but they weren't helping. >> Yeah. >> And they stayed where they were and they continued the flights, which meant that the Abraham Accords actually held with a very diabolical test against the Abraham Accords. That That was my view as I was looking at it. >> Mhm. >> From a diplomat's view, is is that similar? >> It's a [snorts] very interesting point that you've mentioned. Why? Because first of all, I agree with most of the of the things you've just said now, but add to it one more layer in which I do I do see a trend. Hamas was trying to continue two trends. One is the Hamas trend. We don't want to see the state of Israel. We will annihilate the state of And this is a trend they had before. >> And they still do. >> Exactly. And now I will connect it to another trend, which again, you know very well. We all know very well. I'm sure the viewers know it very well, which is the old trend of some countries and peoples in the neighborhood in our neighborhood saying that Israel has no right to exist. Point. And you see Iran today heading this very strongly, etc. And I think that Hamas was trying to follow these two trends, fighting the trend that you were talking of, which is the positive trend of we are going to converse, to cooperate, etc. So, in my view, as a diplomat and you know what? You see, I'm sitting without a jacket and tie because we agreed that I will talk as an Israeli citizen and not just as the ambassador of Israel. Um you see a clash, a very powerful clash between these two trends, the negative ones in plural, that end with the same slogan, Israel has no right to exist, And the other trend saying we have positive agenda, Israel has right to exist and we want to cooperate with this and to have connections to it. And I see that we see I think we see a clash of this whole thing. And yes, it was very vivid on the 7th of October, but I will remind people, mainly I'm sure you know that come that rockets were launched at Israeli civilians for years and years something like 20 years. >> in 2014 and there were rockets coming and we had [snorts] to go to shelters and the bus that we were in had to stop and pull a pull outside but with a big building in between us to and Israelis have lived under those rockets >> Exactly. >> for decades, which is why Iron Dome was built. >> Exactly. >> Um amazing system that it is. >> Exactly. And this is a trend. This is a trend. Some of my I have friends there in the south. They reminded me that it's almost 20 years of rockets that they have, you know, kind of We have drip irrigation in Israel in agriculture. This is drip drop of rockets. It to which you have 15 seconds in order to find a shelter. Otherwise, you have a rocket on your head. >> You live in Ashkelon, Ashdod or Sderot. >> Yeah. >> You got 15 to 15 to 30 seconds to get shelter. And I can tell you without a word of a lie, you can't run to a shelter that's 100 yards away in that time unless you're you know, Usain Bolt or someone like that. >> Yeah. >> But it's a challenging. Yeah, by the time the sirens go off, those rockets are about to explode. >> Exactly. >> And it's it's from a Kiwi's perspective even though I I've been in been in the army here, it's not the same when it's real. >> [laughter] >> And it's not the same when it's civilians. >> And all those civilians in those southern cities in their houses have all got effectively a bomb shelter in their house or in their apartment block. >> Exactly. Everyone needs it's it's a law today in Israel for many years already that you have to have a what we call a sheltered room in every house that is built and from from a new I for example I live in in a small city near Tel Aviv in Ramat Gan and I don't have I live in an old house that was built I think in the end of the 50s or something like and they don't have I don't have this kind of sheltered room. So I had to run every time during the last few years I had to run to a big neighborhood shelter as we call it and I'm I'm 65 but I'm still quite fit. I could have done it. I have two neighbors elderly people who couldn't run and they chose sometimes to stay home against the the the rules and the because they couldn't do it in 1 minute to reach the shelter which was 200 300 m from there. They couldn't run especially at night. So >> have no concept of of this. The Israelis have lived for decades under a constant fear of bombardment either from Hezbollah or or from Hamas. >> Exactly and people talk about you know and even there some people in in New Zealand or in parts of Europe I have friends there they tell me oh really the bombs it's horrible try not to keep yourself alive don't be hit run to the shelter etc. And I tell them you know beyond the shelter question are you sheltered or not there is a psychological question and you know being 20 years or more under this constant constant attack is a a psychological burden that is underestimated in the Western world. People don't understand it. People don't understand it. Well, I'm 65 years old. Uh I told you once that I can't remember one day or one year of my life that was totally calm without any psychological burden that will accumulate. >> or stabbings or shootings or or rockets. >> I can't forget I have three kids as I said and my daughter when there were these stabbings and suicide bombers that entered buses and blowed buses full of people with with dozens of casualties. I remember that one night she wanted to go with her friends to cinema to see a movie. And I told her no and she was quite angry. Why? Why father? Why can't I go? And I said because I don't want to get you in a coffin the night after. And she was very angry at me but that was, you know, my feeling as a father. First of all, feeling bad for not being able to let her go. And secondly, in this constant fear of what will happen if she'll just take a bus with her friends to go to see a movie in town and come back at 10 p.m. I couldn't allow it and she didn't go. >> [laughter] >> She she reminds me that even now she is already a mother for two and she didn't No, no, she didn't go. No, no, I didn't allow her. I was very um strict on that. Look, buses >> So, most New Zealanders the biggest fear they've got is their child might get beaten up. >> Which is a fear. I totally understand it but yeah, so and there is a national constant fear, constant psychological burden that went up skyward uh on the 7th of October. This trauma of the 7th of October, and I will elaborate on that beyond the national, political, military trauma, there is a psychological trauma in which we saw how how it was impossible to defend our own families, family members, and friends uh in the south that were massacred in their own houses. I mean, this is a psychological burden that you can't even explain to people. It's hard to understand. >> when I was watching the the the videos started arriving after that, I just looked at it, and I've been to many of those places that were attacked. You know, um a psychologist friend of mine, he had spent his youth uh working in Kibbutz Be'eri. >> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> And um he couldn't get a hold of people that he knew, that he'd spent 5 years or so driving [snorts] tractors right up to the border of Gaza. Um and I was helping him um try and contact people, and then there were lists that provided, and uh you know, it touched everybody in Israel, but it also reached out to all of those people who have worked in kibbutzes and worked worked that there was people that that were lost that they'd have lived their entire life in that area. >> It is very interesting, and I'm happy you you raised the issue of the those kibbutzniks. Yes, those who live in kibbutzim in the south of Israel. It is a very interesting story. I knew it, but after the war, I had unfortunately, like every Israeli, I was somehow implicated in the war in the work with these guys afterwards. >> [snorts] >> And it was not news for me, but very strange for me to hear again how these people that were suffering for 20 years and more uh from these launches of rockets from Gaza, mortar shells, and just random shootings uh from this side of the border, they were propitious. They were the ones who took their own private cars, and you know Palestinians who couldn't get this or that sophisticated uh treatment, health treatment. >> They used to take them from the border to the Israeli hospitals that gave them this kind of a treatment, brought them back to the border to Gaza, and send them home. So, those were the people who were doing it, even though they were under constant barrage of rockets, et cetera, and mortars. And they were the ones who were massacred or kidnapped during the 7th of October. When you look at it, you say to yourself, "It's impossible. This this this web of they shoot me, I help them, and then I'm massacred by them is something that is impossible to explain, but this is the reality of the south of Israel." >> So, I look at the past conflicts in history, and if [clears throat] we look at World War II for example, the the Germans uh invaded many countries, and many of those countries that they invaded uh you know, they set about systematically transporting the Jews to to the camps, et cetera. But in every single one of those countries that were invaded by the Germans, and in in the case of France, they actually collaborated with the Germans, there was still a resistance. There was still a a certain level of number of people in those organizations that helped their Jewish um compatriots or set up forces to fight the invaders and all of those sorts of things. And when you look at Gaza and people talk about, you know, it's not the whole population that's Hamas. Ignoring [clears throat] that Hamas hasn't had any elections for decades. Ignoring that they massacred their opposition. They killed all the Fatah people in Gaza. Ignoring all of that. And the elections they have had, they've had like 80% voted in favor, right? And then they massacred the 20 that didn't. >> [snorts] >> Not one person. Not one person helped the hostages. Not one person notified the Israeli authorities that there are people here. This is where they're located. Come and get them or help or do any Not one person. I think that's unique in history. There's always been people that will help, but there weren't people in Gaza that would help the hostages. >> Exactly. I I unfortunately have to agree with you. I don't know of any or many. I'll say I don't know of. There might be one here, one there, but these are insignificant numbers compared to the number of hostages which was more than 200. And some of them were kids. I don't have to remind the kids that were massacred there by their captives. You know, >> The Bibas family, people >> the Bibas and others that suffered. I had the chance of talking to two kids that came from a Gaza back again in the south of Israel. I know their uncles and I knew the family very well and I met the kids and they were I will not repeat it here. It's you know, it's their story. But they were tortured by them kids, you know, this age. They were tortured by them. They were beaten by them and other stuff that happened there which is horrid and no one came to their help internally and they told us this. I've asked them, did someone help you? No one they said that some people were just watching, didn't participate in it. But they were beaten quite severely. And so these are these are the facts and I totally agree with you. I don't even have anything to add to it and yes, the comparison to World War II is striking. You know, we have in Israel in Yad Vashem this program of righteous among the nations in which we give recognition of the state of Israel and of the Jewish people to those who risked their lives under the the occupation the Nazi occupation in Europe and saved Jews. We're going to have soon such a ceremony here in New Zealand for a man that lived at the time in in Europe and now he's he he he passed away but his children are going to get this medal. I'm going to give it to them in few weeks time. And we didn't see righteous among the nations in Gaza unfortunately after the 7th of October. >> There's been a lot of talk particularly from the protesters in New Zealand that a lot of the accusations of what Hamas did is is false. It's it's the Israelis are lying. That there weren't babies that were um put in ovens or beheaded or anything like this. And it's like a cognitive dissonance because Hamas were very calculating about how they did it. They filmed everything. They broadcast it live. And these people are sitting here saying Israelis are lying and that didn't happen and and so uh everything that happened after October 7th is unreasonable. >> [snorts] >> It's not a view that I subscribe to. >> of course. >> have to put it to you. You know, like there there's even claims that many of the uh Nova Festival uh victims were actually killed by the Israeli military under the Hannibal directive. >> Yeah. We're quite lucky that well, I'm saying it with lots of sadness and you know, kind of a bitter voice and feeling that Hamas took these footages with their cameras during the massacres. Exactly. Exactly. >> But really it's it's beyond even the the examples that you gave. I think the the examples of the Israeli women that were tortured and I don't want in this podcast to repeat the words of what was done to them. But we have those who were killed afterwards and were found in horrible situation which attests immediately to what kind of horrific horrific treatment and behavior they were subjected to. One. Secondly, those who survived from the Nova music festival and from the kibbutzim who gave testimonies that are horrible and some women organizations around the world didn't believe them. They wanted to see more proof. More proof of what? >> I know, it's appalling. The United Nations said they wanted proof. Here's the proof. We're not sure about that. >> Yeah. And when when we showed footage taken by Hamas, again, not major belief was regard was on the on the table at that time. People were asking for more evidence. If if a woman is harassed or attacked in the streets and she goes to the police, she is being questioned and her testimony is the testimony. This is the truth. Uh when it comes to Israeli women, Jewish Israeli women or non-Jewish Israeli women that were attacked as well, then there is no belief. And this is again something that adds to this psychological feeling, very hard feeling, very heavy feeling of Israelis saying, "So, there is double standards. When we are saying something, we are not believed. Uh when they are the other side is saying something, they are immediately believed." And >> the hospital, the Shifa Hospital, that Israel was supposed to have bombed, but actually it was a Islamic Jihad's rocket. >> Exactly. And you know, I asked few people afterwards, both in New Zealand and elsewhere, that were bold enough in order to put these accusations in front of me. And I told them, "Look, you you don't believe anything I'm saying, that's fine. But let's measure it differently. So, you say that whatever you hear from a democratic country that is being looking for evidence, that has a legal authority that is checking these things and comes with legal proof that this and this happened, >> And any country that prosecutes its own soldiers. >> Yes. You this you don't believe, but whatever is being said by a terror organization, vicious terror organization that kills both Israelis, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews alike, to them you believe immediately. Don't you see that there is some kind of problematics here around? I must say that this argument in a strange way convinced some of them that maybe they have to look again on the evidence and maybe what these democratic Israelis are saying is not really lies because how is it possible that they don't believe the democracy, but they believe the terror organization. Something is wrong here fundamentally. Uh but [snorts] this is the reality in the end. They believe the media here portrayed and elsewhere in New Zealand, I'm I'm I live in New Zealand, portrayed unfortunately and echoed the accusations given by a terror organization and when we answered it after checking, after bringing lots of evidence, when we answered them, they did not really publish it unfortunately most of the times. >> I was um quite early on um shown from [clears throat] from the embassy they um connected me to foreign affairs briefings of of the massacres. And uh I was sent um you know, initially a short video. It was about 7 minutes. >> Mhm. >> Of the most harrowing things that I've ever seen. >> Mhm. >> Um I then also participated in the showing of the longer version, which I I believe was about 37 minutes or something like that. Um I had to stop watching that >> Mhm. >> several times. >> Mhm. >> Uh because it was so shocking. >> Mhm. >> Um you know, there's vivid things that I can't get out of my head >> Mhm. >> uh from watching those things. And it's what, how many years, three years? Yes. And I still can't get some of those shocking images out of my head that, you know, uh would make me swallow and choke down bile, would um bring tears to my eyes. >> Exactly. >> And people uh dare to say that that's all made up. And it angers me, and it angers me that our New Zealand media have viewed those. The embassy put on a a viewing in Wellington some quite some time after I'd seen everything. >> Mhm. >> And only one media outlet said anything about it. >> True. >> And that was Sean Plunket >> On the platform. >> on the platform. >> True. >> Every other media outlet including including Radio New Zealand, who should be the national broadcaster and presenting facts and evidence, said nothing. >> I'm afraid that we spoke before about trends. I see I think we see here a trend and I sorry, I will I will I'll be very open here and I will say that I see a trend in which whatever almost whatever we try to portray to publish, to show that this coin has at least two sides and you know, in the Middle East coins sometimes have five sides, not [laughter] two sides. That's the Middle East, but at least two sides. Unfortunately, um Kiwi media disregard this. Kiwi media portrays mostly things that are coming from sources that are linked to a terror organization, you know, sometimes disguised under the health ministry in Gaza as if no one knows that the health ministry of Gaza is Hamas. >> All the hospitals were headquarters. >> Exactly. Exactly. When we show that a certain establishment, civilian establishment, is infested with tunnels under it and with caches of ammunition and armament or rockets or used as a as a launchpad for rockets and other stuff on Israel. Uh our evidence is disregarded by the media and even though we complained few times, nothing came out of it. And I always say to them, at least show it. At least give the viewers, the readers, the listeners the ability to judge by themselves. Don't judge for them. There are two sides for this coin. And unfortunately, the Israeli side time and again, time and again is disregarded. I'm very sorry about this conduct. I'm not Kiwi, you know, I'm a I'm a guest here. I'm a diplomat. But I see it with lots of sadness because such things begin with Israel and the Jewish people, but they will continue to other places as well. And to other subjects and issues as well. And for me, this is a very it is distorting the truth. It is distorting the the You you are a journalist. It is distorting the whole idea of bringing news to the table. You bring news to the table, not ideology, not your private view or the view of someone in in uh I don't know, in a >> health ministry. >> Exactly. That is being And then the loudspeaker of, you know, news agencies all around the world, whatever they are, that are putting this on table, and you choose which one you take. Uh no, you should take all of them. >> I don't understand that because I'm constantly told by people on on X that the Jews control the media, control them the movie studios, control governments, control control the banking system, the world economy, etc. How come you get such bad press then? >> [laughter] >> It doesn't seem like very much controlled at all from where I'm looking at it. >> [snorts] >> You know, sometimes I would have been happy if we would have controlled. We don't control anything and we don't aspire to control anything. >> publicity is proof of that, right? >> Exactly. And you open an Israeli newspaper and you see the battles there between the the different perceptions and point of views. But this is this is the way >> It's like reading Haaretz for one view and then Times of Israel for a slightly more conservative view and then all the way through across the spectrum. >> Exactly, but then >> each other. >> Exactly. And then you have exactly the words exactly the word that you have said, spectrum. This is what you need to have, a spectrum. And by the way, spectrum is really many more than just two points of view. >> That's right. >> And this is the beauty of spectrum. And then it's not that you just choose whatever you want. You have a way, you the intelligent reader each one of the readers, viewers, listeners is intelligent in this manner or in this subject or and we have a chance to decide for ourselves. Uh when you have a distorted media, you have no chance. They've decided for you. >> Yeah, exactly. The the media have decided to portray one view only. >> Exactly. >> And and that's where I see the problem is with the New Zealand media. If you look at radio in New Zealand, many of their stories about Israel that are against Israel are sourced from the BBC or from the Guardian or from these left-wing uh ideology and the organizations that per- pervade that ideology and and and spread that ideology. And it's like a cancer that is spreading of lies about Israel. But then then right especially after October 7, you know, we all know there's has been centuries, millennia of anti-Semitism in the world just lurking under the surface. After October 7, it came right out in the open. >> Yeah. >> In New Zealand in particular, we we've got some horrible anti-Semites. >> Yeah. >> Some of them are MPs. You won't comment on that, but I can. Um you know, some of the things that they retweet and approve of and and and like and things I watch. I'm seeing them. And in many respects, October 7 has been a blessing >> Mhm. >> from my perspective because we can now see who they are. We can see who these anti-Semites are and we can see how there is a sickness in New Zealand society >> Yeah. >> at a certain level that needs to be solved. How we solve that, I don't know. >> Mhm. >> But uh it is a sickness and it is almost like history repeating itself. >> Exactly. And you know, I'll come back to anti-Semitism in a second, but I want just to add one more phrase to our previous point, which for me is very important. You know, you you mentioned World War few minutes ago. And I would assume I didn't live at that time. Both of us didn't. But I would assume that newspapers and news outlets at the time, radio and newspapers, I guess this is what we had at the time, didn't portray the Nazi point of view of what's happening during the war. And of course didn't support it and put it above the local news made by England or America or resistance in France resistance in France, etc. So we see the opposite today. And when you put it in front of the media, they're not alarmed by that. Which shows me that there is a problem here, a fundamental problem here. That you go to the terrorist or the oppressor and you are accepting their point of view and not vice versa or at least both. >> Which then encourages the anti-Semites. >> Exactly. And then I'm coming to the right. Exactly. You just said the the phrase I wanted to to to link the two points. The anti-Semitism and the way it is portrayed in the media. I think that you know my grandfather and my father lived in Central Europe during the war, during World War II. They came to Israel only after the war. They couldn't They wanted to come before, but it was impossible. And so, they are kind of Holocaust survivors. And they always said to me, my grandfather used to tell me that um >> [snorts] >> the most difficult thing was, of course, the Holocaust itself and his family taken to Auschwitz and massacred, etc. But he felt that what happened before which was blatant anti-Semitism in which anti-Semite anti-Semitism was not regarded as something that the whole people should deal with, but just the Jews, if at all, was the major reason for what happened afterwards and for the neglect of some of the peoples to what the Nazis did in their occupied areas. So, I'm afraid that we begin to see something like that nowadays. How peoples and countries disregard anti-Semitism, don't really fight anti-Semitism, say few words here and there, but don't take very bold decisions and actions in order to stop this beast from haunting us again. And I'm very sorry for that because we have the Holocaust, we have the 30s, exactly. We have the Holocaust and the 30s as a an example that is not so far away, less than 100 years ago. >> But there was hundreds of years of pogroms before the 1930s. >> Yes, but nowadays we live in a totally different world. We live in a world in which we have democracies, we have laws, we have rule of law in most countries, especially Europe and America and here and Israel, etc. Um we have different perceptions of human rights, of minority rights, etc. And you would assume that combining this with the >> [snorts] >> what we learned or we had to learn after World War II and after the 30s of the last century, that at least maybe maybe anti-Semitism cannot be eradicated, but it can be fought. And you would have assumed that people and organizations and governmental entities will fight it. And unfortunately, we don't see it. >> You're right. You will never eliminate anti-Semitism just the same way you'll never eliminate communism or socialism. Um you know, communism or or and socialism has actually killed far more people than anti-Semitism has, right? Uh hundreds of millions of people have have suffered under those regimes. We'll never stamp it out because there's always true believers. But I believe that we must always call it out. Uh and you know, I I'm I've been horrified at some of the people that I've discovered violent anti-semites. You know, holding positions in businesses there where there's a lot of trust involved. Like real estate agents, for example, you know, customer facing people. And you know, I can choose who I can I don't believe in banning people. I do believe in telling the truth about people. I don't believe in banning or gathering or silencing. I want to hear what anti-semites have to say because then they're not hidden. Then we know who they are and we can make our choices accordingly. We wouldn't tolerate some of the things that are said to Jewish New Zealanders if there were someone that would be like you know, there are some people in the Jewish community community a lot of women that receive awful death threats. Um, they usually start with kill all Jews, but let's start with you, too. Right? If you said that to a someone or a Maori you would be vilified. You would be outed by the media. You would be hounded out of your job. Um, you would find it almost impossible to live in society. And yet we allow that to happen to Jewish New Zealanders. And I find it appalling appalling. >> That's appalling and I think that New Zealand is still in a point of time in which it can still fight and excuse me for do you saying it as I said before I'm a guest, I'm a diplomat. I do not intervene in internal affairs. But you know, I'm a Jewish person. I my I'm I'm a >> [laughter] >> Yes. >> Apparently you pay me. >> Yes, that's what I heard that I pay everyone to to say >> And O'Brien, you see she's paid. >> Sean Plunket, he's paid. >> Yeah, everyone is paid. I wish I had this kind of budgets for other things, not for paying No, I do not pay and we don't pay and I'm I'm I'm very happy to have friends who are genuinely friends because they they saw, they analyzed and they came to the conclusion that what he said about the state of Israel, whether in Gaza, you know, this sort of uh horrific words we are being told after Gaza um or or fighting anti-Semitism in the world. But, I want to go back to the point. I think that New Zealand is still in a stage in which anti-Semitic anti-Semitism can be fought >> Yes. >> by governmental agencies. >> Yeah, governmental agencies, by organizations, by people, by human rights organizations. And yes, to make sure that if a woman or or a man are being called horrified or horrific kind of word are being thrown at them and death threats that follow it almost immediately, >> [snorts] >> that the right action, not just declarations, the right action or actions in plural will be taken against it in order to show that there is a price to be paid if you're doing these kind of things. And I think that you are still on that point. The unfortunately some kind countries in the world that have already passed this threshold or point of no return. I hesitate to say point of no return. I hate it. I I think there is always a return, but I'm not sure anymore concerning anti-Semitism in some countries in in the old continent mainly. >> After the Christchurch mosque attacks, terrible act of terrorism by an Australian. Jacinda Ardern made this big deal of about wearing a hijab and saying they are us. Uh she formed uh the Christchurch call in conjunction with Emmanuel Macron. And said we uh wanting to stamp stamp out all hatred, you know, online you know, activities. Ba- basically because the the Christchurch terrorist live-streamed his atrocities. Just a few years later, of course, we had October 7. I didn't hear anything from the Christchurch call about online protection and stopping the streaming and all of those things. And I wondered about that and I looked into it. And there's quite a number of countries that have signed up to the Christchurch call except for one very prominent country that's very small that is not involved in the Christchurch call. And that country is Israel. And so I asked a few questions. Why is Israel not involved in the Christchurch call? They suffer terrorism and online um harassment and all of these things. And the answer I was told is they applied and they weren't accepted. And that for me wrote off the Christchurch call from that day forward. I've got no intention of echoing what they want to say. I have no intention of listening to what they want to say because they've ignored a tiny democracy that suffers an over- whelming uh incidents of online hate and vitriol. And it just pointed out to me the absolute hypocrisy of a Emmanuel Macron who postures about anti-Semitism where France is one of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world. And Jacinda Ardern who's entitled, you know, entire being is about kindness. >> Mhm. >> Then except for Jews. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, you are right. We were trying to enter this mechanism. It was before I came here, but I know that there were very genuine strong efforts and yes, we applied for this. We The application is still or the request is still on the table. >> For years. >> For years, yes. And I think by the way that this is exactly, you remember we began with trends and I said that there is the negative trend that continues and there is a positive trend today in the Middle East that is contradicting it and trying to win over the the peoples, the countries and the the system as a whole. And unfort- I think the crisis call was the positive agenda thing. Let's try to stop this kind of incitement and etc. in which we wanted to participate. And in the Middle East we were accepted to this, not in New Zealand, which for me is an unbelievable thing. And I want to link it to something else because and again that we spoke about. I think that you are so right putting the finger on the issue of incitement. That should be stopped concerning anti-Semitism, online incitement. >> Any online incitement. >> Exactly. Any, but we are talking on on anti-Semitism. There is no doubt. So, incitement, the same incitement that by the way we see in the teaching books, the the the the schoolbooks, the curriculum in Gaza and in some parts Exactly, in some parts of Judea and Samaria. And we say time and again, time and again, for example, if you want to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict positively, reaching something positive, first and foremost you have to stop the incitement that is now in the textbooks. And the same thing here, if you want to begin to fight anti-Semitism, first and foremost, stop the incitement. And after that, we will try to deal with the actual things on the ground. And unfortunately, on both cases, totally different, but somehow linked, some countries are not dealing with these that way. They do not fight incitement. They, in a way, even nurture incitement by paying for this kind of thing and financing school books that are calling for killing Jews, for example, as part of mathematic learning, mathematical learning. So, >> How many Jews can you kill in >> Exactly. >> Yeah, if it takes 10 It's appalling what you say, right? The The textbooks are bad enough. The videos that come out of children with plays at schools things like that, memory uh documents, all of that, and translates it. It was a fantastic resource. If people just go and look at MEMRI m e m r i t v, they will see the indoctrination that happens in schools that is funded by the UN and UNRWA and the UNDP, of which Helen Clark was the head of. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, and when she comes out and repeats what I consider to be blood libels against Israel, people listen to her. So, she's in part of the incitement. >> Yeah. >> And she she encouraged and funded all of that school uh and learning and and everything else. >> Yeah. >> And there's people out there who are saying, "Oh, no, we should, you know, reconstitute UNRWA." It's the most bizarre organization ever created. You know, if you It goes back to to 1948. And if your family was displaced, then then you're a a refugee and all the children in every generation since. And so the refugee numbers are growing and even though they live in Lebanon and and Syria and Jordan, was not so many in Jordan now, but there's a few. Uh and Egypt, uh UNRWA represents them. >> True. True. And UNRWA keeps the notion of refugee >> There's more refugees in UNRWA than there are Palestinians in Gaza and in the West Bank. >> Exactly. Now, we can we can talk about the issue of whether they were refugees, yes or no, but this I put aside for a second. >> But some Arabs didn't leave in '48. >> Exactly. >> Some stayed. >> Many. >> And and many stayed and they're teachers, policemen, military officers, MPs, >> judges, >> high court >> judges. >> Yeah. >> Uh everywhere you find when I'm when I'm talking to people who visited Israel for the first time and asking them >> it. >> I ask them, "What was the main [clears throat] thing, the thing that really positively shocked you in Israel negatively?" Of course, you can ask, but positively shocked you. Most of them would say, "Wow, we saw that whatever we were told about the Israeli Arab conflict in Israel has nothing to do with reality. >> go to a cafe and they say >> exactly restaurants, cafes, beach, uh cinemas, hospitals. >> There's no apartheid >> Hospitals, Arab doctors. >> state, they say. >> Of course, of course. This is why this is why a high court judge, Arabic high court judge, sent to prison an Israeli president. An [laughter] Israeli president to to to to the prison. Uh I mean, this is apartheid. What's the >> You only have to go to a cafe in in Jaffa, right? Where there's a big long table. There's only one table and >> Exactly. >> and you're all sitting you're sitting next to an Arab, you're sitting next to a Jew, you're sitting next to a Christian, you're sitting next to um a a Hindu, what do you Everyone. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. I >> And everybody's conversing and there's no problems. >> There is no problem and I I have a restaurant I favor in Jaffa itself and I take my father, he's almost 90 years old. So, when I am in Israel, I take him there. We all we all we always agree beforehand that we will go to this restaurant at least once. And we go there usually on Friday because I work on the other days, on Friday. And we sit there and you know, on Friday the Muslims are coming after the the prayer and with big families, so there are lots of Israelis that are Jews, Israelis that are Muslims that are just coming and you hear the bells from the Jaffa monasteries one after the the other and everyone eats and then you have 200, 300 people in a huge restaurant, the one that we go to. Who cares? I speak Hebrew with the with the waiter and he goes to the next table, he speaks Arabic with them, etc. What apartheid? What are we talking about? >> [snorts] >> I mean I love it. They love it. >> That's another libel against Israel. >> Of course. Of course. >> I always say to people I I don't know why I bother because they're just so stuck in the slogans that they've learned that Israel is an apartheid state. And I say to them, "Well, show me one law. Just one. Any Any one will do. One law in Israel that separates people." >> Doesn't exist. It will be It will be nullified immediately by the High Court. >> Well, there is one and that's the laws that protect the ultra-Orthodox. >> [laughter] >> Right? >> Yeah. >> That [clears throat] keeps them on welfare and [snorts] People don't realize this, right? That's a lifestyle. That's fun by the state of Israel. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't understand it. Well, you know, that's how it is. >> On this I'm ready to speak with the viewers later. [laughter] But uh yeah, I mean there are many accusations and especially after the 7th of October, so many accusations, so many horrifying words that are being thrown at us. Uh the genocide thing and stuff. And when you look at it and when you ask them, "Did you see the facts? Do you see the facts? Do you portray the facts?" Mainly the media. When I asked some journalists, for example, "Did you show the breakdown of the casualties in Gaza? Did you show that most of them except most of them are in the ages of military uh fighting age?" Yeah. Uh most of them have um identity cards of Hamas, which means that they are what they call warriors and I will call it terrorists, etc. Most of them Did you check the number of natural death in Gaza and added it or subtracted it from the numbers? They "No, these are the numbers we got from the health officials in Gaza." But the health official in Gaza are terrorists from the Hamas organization. What do you mean by that? And still this >> the count of the journalist said they say that Israel is murdered, right? >> Murdered. >> And and yet and there there is Hamas broadcasting on their social media a picture of the journalist >> Yeah. >> wearing his military Hamas uniform, maybe a colonel, maybe a major in in Hamas. >> And how many of them participated in the 7th of October and we showed the photographs of their identity as a again identity cards, Hamas identity cards, etc. etc. that were found in their home on all the on their bodies. And unfortunately, this is not portrayed here, not enough at least. I will be cautious. And this adds to this issue of Israel is an apartheid and all these slogans that are just being thrown to the air without any connection to evidence or to the reality on ground. And I advise people to go to Israel. I always say it. Just go and see by yourself. Go and see by yourself. Go to Tel Aviv. Go to Jerusalem. Go to Haifa. Go to the Negev and go to the north. And you will see. Yesterday, I participated in an wonderful webinar while being here in Auckland in which an Israeli NGO showed few a Kiwis what they do on the issue of innovation in Israel with Arab kids and Jewish kids from the south of Israel, from the north a bit as well, but mainly from the south of Israel, from the very impoverished areas in the south. Altogether, the groups of these youth are three Arab women or girls and two Jewish boys that are building together something in high-tech, a new startup, a new bright idea that they didn't learn how to build into a product and sell it. They do it together. Muslims, Jews together, youth. Where is the apartheid here? No connection to apartheid. And I tell people, go and see it with your own eyes in Israel. Go and as you say, go to a coffee shop >> You can you can go to Israel, land at Tel Aviv Airport, get in a taxi and do whatever you want. >> Exactly. >> Try and do that in a in a in a you know, a dictatorship that of a Muslim country. >> Try to do it in Gaza. >> Yeah. >> Try to do it elsewhere. I agree. So, this and again, this is something I'm sending again and again. You You asked me about the media. To the media, not as an accusation, as a challenge. Show this. Go and show this, not the ideology, the reality on the ground. And there are always problems. No country is without any problem. Israel has >> Well, Israel has plenty of problems. >> and challenges and things that we do wrong, but at least we're trying to do good. At least we're trying to rectify them. Time and again. And when you see the good agenda, the positive agenda in Israel, it's always together. >> One of the things that I saw when I was in Israel and this people asked me when I came back in 2014, "What's Israel like?" I said, "Reminds me of the can-do attitude that used to have we have we used to have in New Zealand." You know, "Oh, we need to um you know, um design our own whiteware because Am- Americans make everything in 110 volts, we're at 230 volts. We need to build our own stuff. Um you know, Hamilton jets, uh Gallagher fencing, uh all of these things. We were innovators." >> Mhm. >> And somehow and I don't know why we we kind of lost that. We've still got innovation happening in New Zealand, but nowhere near the level of innovation that I saw across the spectrum, not just in IT, um but in many, many different things. Uh one of the things I remember the most was a visit to the Shafdan, >> Mhm. >> the water treatment plant that is incredible. Where you're taking all of the waste water from 8 million people >> Mhm. >> you know, in the Tel Aviv-Yafo area. It's a big area. >> Mhm. >> Processing that back into potable water. >> Mhm. >> And then exporting that to other parts of the country to irrigate through your drip technology, you know, irrigation, again an Israeli invention, >> Mhm. >> uh which is used extensively in New Zealand in the kiwifruit industry. >> True. >> Right? Um to grow things that then go back into the cycle in the Tel Aviv-Yafo area. And through your desalination plants, >> Yeah. >> uh you're now producing more water than the country needs. >> Exactly. >> And you are exporting that water, clean potable water, to neighboring countries. >> Yes. >> We do. >> Well, that's the kind of innovation that I saw. And there's many more examples. I I saw uh I visited a company that uh is helping people with cerebral palsy, where they give them special kind of shoes that sends an electrical current through their feet, which overrides the the the blockages of cerebral palsy, which means they can now walk. >> True. >> Amazing technology. People who have lost the ability to walk with the ReWalk system, the skeleton >> ReWalk. True. >> All of these things. And And now also the the uh water from air technology, which is amazing, that Watergen uh is making. And I saw all of these things, and I'm sitting here thinking, "Well, we could have done that." Right? We could The way the Shoft Dam works, we could do that for Auckland. Uh it would clean up our waterways. Uh every town in New Zealand could have a smaller version of that, rather than the way that we And I'm sitting here thinking, "Why have we lost our way on innovation?" And maybe we need to relearn that by speaking to more Israeli companies. >> True. I I can't answer the first question. [laughter] Why did you lose it? >> Well, I I think it's because we became wealthy and we became lazy. >> [laughter] >> And comfortable. >> I will just smile. I will be polite even though it's difficult for an Israeli to be polite, but I will be polite and I will smile. Um but uh I will say that the second half of your phrase is the right answer to your question. Let's cooperate. And this I say time and again, let's create this positive agenda that will counter the negative agenda and will create a discussion. And I think you know, I've been here at least in two occasions. I saw pitching of high-tech young high-tech entrepreneurs with young ideas and with young companies or startups uh that they had in in various levels. I participated as a viewer and listener. I didn't even say that I'm coming as ambassador, etc. And I was very much amazed with the wonderful ideas. As I said, I have some engineering background, not much, but uh not in this not in electronics or these things like that or IT, but I understood a bit and I was very much impressed by what I saw. >> [snorts] >> But what we have in Israel is different. What we have is the ecosystems that take these bright ideas and bring them up. What we have is exactly what I described before. We have the ability to take young generation from the impoverished areas and give them the opportunity to build their own startups. Something they would never dream uh of without this kind of studies. And I think that this kind of cooperation, fertile cooperation between your youth, our youth, your technology systems, ours, your universities, our universities can create two beautiful things. First of all, it will create something in the innovation sector. The I've no doubt about it. I saw bright people here, bright people in Israel together. sky is not the limit in my view. >> Well, that's what I saw in Israel. The sky is not the limit. >> Not the limit. But I see something else that goes back to some of the issues we discussed before, whether political, sociological, media-wise, etc. It will It will create a discussion, a conversation between the two peoples in in various fields, which for me is very important in order for Kiwis to understand more Israel and what is happening in Israel and vice versa. And will create for the younger generation and less younger generation the ability to go up and to flourish in this future world. And by the way, it will incorporate exactly what I hear here sometimes when you have mentioned the apartheid state. It will show the Kiwis how they Arabs in Israel are embedded in this world. For example, in Nazareth, we have a huge hub of a technology, which is Nazareth is a Arab-Jewish city. My own city, Haifa, which is Arab-Israeli, Arab-Jewish, sorry. All of us are Israelis. Arab-Jewish a city. You have a huge hub of technology with the biggest names in the world, Microsoft and Google and Nvidia is building down the second or the third center near Haifa in Tivon with 10,000 workers. Huge one, which will be a hub for half of the innovation of Nvidia, I think, or something like that. So, to cooperate the together is a blessing for both of us and a source of knowledge and conversation and dialogue between the two societies. I wish this will be the positive agenda rather than putting slogans on the newspapers. >> But it But it also touches on the you know, the the BDS people, the people who want to boycott um Israel, divest from Israel. Um because when you start looking at the innovation and it's immense. You know, like Waze, for example, started by two ex-soldiers, turned into a multi-billion dollar company, bought by Google. >> [snorts] >> Waze is now integral in Google's navigation system. So, if you are a pro-Palestinian protester who wants to boycott, divest, and and and uh stop using anything that's Israeli, well, you need to turn your phone off. All right, cuz the encryption chips and the encryption techniques and the Google mapping and almost anything that's that's used on your phone, WhatsApp, uh any of those communications platforms, there's Israeli innovation in those. >> True. True. And beyond that, you know, when I hear BDS people, exactly, um hospital equipment, etc. >> Surgery equipment. >> Surgery, agriculture, um etc. But, you know, when I hear uh this BDS argumentation, I'm I don't know even whether to laugh or cry because those are the same people who say that there is no in not enough connection between the Jews and the Arabs or Muslims in Israel. >> Because of apartheid. >> Because of apartheid, etc. And when you tell them, "Okay, so let's cooperate together," they say, "No, we are going to boycott you." So, they tell us not to boycott them, but they boycott us. So, if you can explain to me the logic, I'll be a happy person. Of course, there is no logic. No logic there, of course. I'm I'm putting it in a with a smile, very very bitter very bitter smile on my face. I mean, there's no logic. Why wouldn't they prefer to do the other way around and to cooperate, as you have mentioned, in water, in IT, in cyber, in agriculture, in health, etc., and to incorporate whatever party they want. We Israelis were for it, for cooperation, for multinational cooperation. This is what I've done most of my life in the 40 years that I'm in the ministry. I've built cooperation. I think this is the essence of the state of Israel and by the way, of New Zealand in the future. I've no doubt. And they call for destruction instead of calling for cooperation. I don't understand it. What's the benefit here? >> They're on the negative trend. >> Yeah, exactly. We began and I look how time and again we come to this uh I would say clash between the negative agenda that is the agenda of the past and the positive agenda that we try to say and many other members of the Middle Eastern club are saying now more and more, "Okay, >> Speaking >> we disagree, but let's cooperate and let's see what we can do together with positive agenda and by this we will find solutions." >> Yeah, it's it's on that I look at the Pacific and >> Mhm. >> in particular Fiji. I was born in Fiji. It has a place in my heart. Every time I land in Fiji, it it feels like home. I can't explain it. There's you know, I've lived most of my life in New Zealand, but when you get to Fiji, you feel like you're at home. >> [snorts] >> And I was really pleased to see that Israel has now opened an embassy in Suva. >> Exactly. >> Because I can see that that innovation that you talk about in agriculture and water management, particularly in Suva, for example. There are large communities in Suva that are squatter settlements. All right. And where I used to live in Suva Point, not more than 200 yards from where I the house I was born in, is one of the largest squatter settlements in Suva. Most people live hand-to-mouth. Their kids all go to school. they have the whitest uniforms. I don't know how they do it, but they don't have any running water, they don't have any sanitation, they don't have any things that are actually what we expect as as of right. It's as a human right, but these are these people that that don't have it. And people think it's all too hard. But you stick in a containerized water gen solution with with I don't know, 10 um 10 50,000 L tanks. Within a week those tanks are full and stay full. And it and Suva's got a humid uh environment, so there's a lot of water in the air, which can be extracted perfectly pure and clean. Once you have clean water and reticulation, all of a sudden through sanitation you live longer. Uh yeah, a whole lot of things start improving. You're not now subsisting. >> Exactly. >> And I can see huge opportunities for Israeli companies to assist the people of Fiji. And I imagine it's exactly the same in Samoa and Tonga and Vanuatu and places like that. >> Exactly, exactly. And I'm very happy that we opened the embassy. I thought we should have done it already in the past, but it's good. We used to have embassies here in the Pacific and now they're coming back. I'm responsible for four islands in the Pacific as well. And first of all, I concur, I agree with everything you've just said about the possibility, but I see not just Israeli export possibilities there. What I like in what we did, and I began it in Africa, as I said, in Cameroon so many years ago, and I've done it later on in other African countries and a bit in the Middle East. We have a system in Israel of aid for transferring Israeli knowledge, whether in agriculture, in water management, in human It's education, exactly. This is what I'm I'm a great believer in because, yes, we can give them Watergen equipment, so they can produce their own water, and as you say, this is an acute need. They need it, point. You die without water, not just physically, you you can't grow anything, and you don't have anything without water. Potable water. We can do that, but I think that we will do, and you will see it more and more. We have three centers in Israel since the '50s. It was Golda Meir's, the the Prime Minister of Israel, the the lady Exactly. The lady who built this, and one of them is called after her in my in my town, in in Haifa. And we send the trainees for very short time. We don't send them for 3 years to have a bachelor degree. No, from 2 weeks or 1 week, sometimes, to 3 weeks or 4 weeks. The longest is few months for in in various in certain fields, and we give them all we know in this field, and as I said, it can be agriculture, it can be health, it can be women empowerment, it can be everything you can think of in which we think we have expertise, we can share with them, and will be beneficial for them. They go back to their countries, and they build their own country with their own hands. So, I see the biggest I would say real impact for the well-being and for the future generations of these countries, not just by us selling them the best equipment that we have. We will do it. We will try to help by that, but the ability to give them the expertise, so they create the knowledge and the know-how specialized in their own needs and tailored for their own needs in the future. For me, this is the biggest thing to we will do there in the islands. >> See, I look at at the Pacific and how Australia and New Zealand treats the Pacific. >> Mhm. >> And I'm constantly disappointed um by the doctrinaire attitude that Australia and particular New Zealand somewhat >> Mhm. >> has towards Pacific nations. >> Mhm. >> And you know, Fiji again, it's it's my country of birth. >> Mhm. >> Uh I look at the history there and I look at how New Zealand and Australia have treated Fiji >> Mhm. >> with their coup culture. >> Mhm. >> And there's there's been different coups. Whereas in New Zealand and Australia, we just call it a coup. That coup's the same as that coup, which is the same as that coup. But there's been different drivers >> Yeah. >> in in some of those coups. >> Um we've now got a bit of stability happening in um Fiji. They've had three elections now post uh the last coup that they had, which is which is good progress. >> Mhm. >> Um the thing that that New Zealand does is we give aid, but with strings attached. >> Mhm. >> And we give aid, and it's usually uh it's not usually expertise. It's usually money or grants or whatever. And I see that as a forlorn hope. Um that is open to corruption, open to uh systematic uh robbing of that aid. >> Mhm. >> Not for the purposes of what it which it was given. You know, I'll give you an example. Um somebody funded a whole lot of new ambulances >> Mhm. >> Suva without realizing or understanding that the ambulance service in Suva is not like the ambulance service in New Zealand or Australia. And it's actually a a shoestring private organization. And so, adding 20 free ambulances to that didn't increase any services. >> Okay. >> Because it just encouraged them to be sold off sold off. >> Oh. >> Um you know, for profit. Rather than >> Mhm. >> the delivery. >> Okay. >> Um that's just one example. So, I see what you're saying Israel is doing in terms of sharing expertise to empowering people is creating self-sufficient societies rather than dependent societies. >> Exactly. And this is why I gave you the example before few half an hour ago. I gave you the example of this youth education for innovation that we want to do it. We we will not benefit from this innovation. It will benefit those communities that will adhere to it, that will send their youth to it, that will be continuing the the process forward. And we intend to do not intend, we do it already. I've I began it with Samoa, for example. I'm responsible for Samoa, Tonga, Cook Islands, and Niue. And we will do the same thing in all four of them. This is my intention. I've no doubt we will do it in Fiji and the other islands that the Fijian our Fijian embassy will be responsible for. And again, in order to create the capacity of change and of production and of innovation in this regard because we are strong in innovation. This is what we bring. We are strong in agriculture. This is what we try to give. Uh we [snorts] will not give something that can be given by others and we don't have the abilities you know, the financial abilities of the big powers. We don't even try to compete on that. >> You're competing on intelligence. >> We bring we give our know-how and knowledge with open hearts and without any you know, secrecy involved. You want agriculture, we will teach you drip irrigation as much as you want. We will teach you how to plant your next future pro crops. We will teach them teach them. We will not teach them, will share with them the the technology we have on how to take a barren land and to create both energy and agriculture from the same square centimeter that they have there. And I think that this will benefit them enormously twice. First of all, they will have, for example, energy and agriculture in this example, but more than that, they will have the qualifications to take it forward. And maybe in 20 years time, we will come to learn from them what can be done better in this regard. And why not? This is real cooperation. >> I think in Fiji, you've got a a willing audience. >> No doubt. >> Because uh the single after remittances, which is Fijians who live overseas sending money back to Fiji, after remittances, the single biggest income earner for Fiji is peacekeeping. And for decades, Fiji Fiji has sent their soldiers to Israel >> [clears throat] >> in peacekeeping missions. So, there are literally thousands of ex-soldiers >> Yeah. >> or current soldiers in Fiji that have an affinity with Israel because they've lived there for considerable amounts of time experiencing the benefits of Israeli society and the technological advances that are coming from there. And so, I think you've got a really willing audience amongst Fijians >> Yeah. >> who also have a very strong Christian ethos and an affinity for Israel because of the Bible and the belief system and everything like that. That you've got a more willing audience for what Israel has to say and teach and and educate >> Yeah. >> than, say, New Zealand. >> [laughter] >> I still hope that in New Zealand as well, it will work and by the way Yeah, no doubt. [laughter] No doubt. I understood where you're coming. It's like my Haifa for myself. But um but again, look again and again how we come to the same thing. This is our answer to BDS. We are coming to cooperate and to give a share and not to put barriers etc. And the BDS guys, the boycotting divestment guys are are trying to disrupt every possible connection and cooperation and discussion. And we Fiji we will have this discussion on how we do things better, what should be done in the future. And I said more than that, to build the capacity there to go forward without us very quickly. And as I said, my dream is, I'm not sure that at my age I will see this dream fulfilled. 20 years where I How do I know where I'll be 20 years from now? But in 20 years or less that we will come back to Fiji in order to study something in agriculture, to understand a bit better how to create water from air as you said, water gen. Because they'll have a better technology because of the basis that we gave them. This is what we intend to do. This is what we are trying to do in the Middle East as well. Again, the positive agenda in order to contradict this negative agenda of let's fight and let's put barriers of the BDS guys. >> I'll give Israel one thing, they don't give up. >> Never. >> Right. >> Never. The Jewish people, not just Israel. >> don't give up. >> 3,500 years of not giving up. >> What do you mean? Hang on, let me understand. I've been told by the protesters that you're all from Europe and you need to go home. >> Oh yeah. Luckily, >> [laughter] >> I've done my DNA test and I'm totally Israeli even though I have blue eyes. >> [laughter] >> I can trace my ancestors very back. I'm a Cohen, so I can even relate to Aaron, the the brother of Moses, somehow. But yeah. We never give up and we still always try to cooperate to diverse to to converse to to build these bridges and I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to try and to to tell people that this is what we intend to do. We spoke about the 7th of October. >> that I see. You know, I've been to Israel. Um yes, it was arranged by the foreign ministry to foreign affairs, but I could go and see and do whatever I wanted when I was there. In fact, the group, you know, we were supposed to be at a at a science uh conference and uh many people pulled out because in 2014 um I think it was Operation Cast Lead was the operation at that time. Hamas was firing rockets and it was quite frightening, but um Israelis have to live under that and so I went anyway because uh I wanted to see what I wanted to see. And I went from the north from the Lebanese border to the Gaza border um and across you know, from Tel Aviv across to Jerusalem and then into the West Bank uh and down to the Dead Sea. So, I pretty much saw everything other than the Negev, right? >> [snorts] >> Uh and what I saw was innovation. What I saw was a a democratic society that yes has arguments with each other and disagreements politically. What I found is Israelis love to argue. >> Very much. >> they they love to argue. Even if they agree with you, it's boring, so we'll argue. >> Of course. >> Um and I I enjoyed it. And I saw this cosmopolitan society and the differences, too, between Tel Aviv, you know, the hotel I was staying at, you walk through a park and there's all the exercise equipment. I think you know the park. And then that goes down onto the beach and the waterfront, and and the beach in Tel Aviv, um which is obviously the Mediterranean Sea, has got some groynes, that's a technical term, but you know, breakwaters. >> Yeah. >> And it's separated into different beaches. >> Yeah. >> Mainly to to manage the waves and and the sand and everything else. >> Mhm. >> But they've been now become known as various different beaches. >> True. >> And right in front of my hotel, and I would go down there each evening for a walk and to >> [snorts] >> I love being near the sea and smell the sea. >> Mhm. >> There was on the left-hand side as I looked out a beach and it had a sign up and it was for Orthodox Jews, >> And they have different bathing costumes. >> True. >> Neck neck to ankles. >> True. >> And right next door >> The gay zone. >> is the gay beach. >> Exactly. >> Where there's almost no clothing. >> [laughter] >> And I And I And I thought to myself, this is Israel, where you have two completely different lifestyles. >> Exactly. >> Right? Living side by side with no animosity. No one's protesting the gay beach. The gays aren't protesting the Orthodox. They They don't believe in in each other's ideology or thoughts. >> And still >> And yeah. And then I went out to dinner uh one night in at the Hilton Hotel in the restaurant in the open air at the top. Magnificent views of Tel Aviv. And um we had a couple of gay activists for dinner to speak to the group. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And um you know, they were talking about gay rights and pride week and all of these sorts of things. And I said, "Oh, have you got a branch in Gaza?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah. You know, we just had the the proud gay week in Israel, and we had 100,000 people marching in the streets of Tel Aviv and this is only 60 km from Jerusalem, holy Jerusalem, which is holy Jerusalem with the three monotheistic monotheistic religions represented in the deepest possible >> very conservative Jerusalem >> 60 km, the length of Auckland, yeah. 60 km and you have here 100,000 people marching and you have here the deepest and the highest possible kind of religious feelings and and institutions and everything. And yes, they live together. Sometimes we quarrel, sometimes we argue. You are you are very right and as Israelis we do it not in the way I'm talking, but we shout a bit and we are noisy and we pound the table and yeah and we do and you >> [snorts] >> And but it doesn't mean as I said that we we don't live together and beyond that you know, you mentioned oh you came from Europe. Yeah, my ancestors, my parents and grandparents came from Europe, but my grandchildren have European blood from three different countries and on the same time they have Moroccan blood, Iraqi blood, Egyptian blood in them through the other grandparents. So we are a melting pot, real melting pot, real melting pot of cultures as you've mentioned the gay and the ultra-orthodox, but of religions and of origins all together and as I said before >> to build a strong vibrant country >> Exactly. Exactly and this is why I said to people go to Israel and see it with your own eyes. If you like Israel or if you dislike Israel, if you believe what you said or not, go and see with your own eyes. Walk in the streets of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, the holy places in the north for the Christian religion or the Baha'i of course who have Yeah, they have their world center in Israel because of the ability to worship everything and go to the Negev desert. You said you didn't go to you would see amazing innovation in the Negev desert mainly in agriculture. You know these sweet tomatoes that you buy here in the supermarkets were invented in Israel the small ones and when you would see what kind of water they are being are used in order to grow them salty water from the Negev aquifer and you get the sweetest possible tomatoes in the world. This was done by innovation skills years ago already and I'm saying it not bragging but very proud of this in the middle of the desert in this barren desert with less than 200 millimeters of water a year which is regarded as nothing. >> The desert that gave its name to the best machine gun in the world. >> Exactly. >> That's on my that's on my bucket list Negev. >> Negev yeah. So um Yeah. So there are fightings in Gaza. >> Mhm. >> There are mortars and rocket shells from Gaza and few kilometers from there you have the highest yield a desert agriculture in the world. So >> Which is improving Bedouin communities >> Exactly. Both exist together and this is the the idea again we are coming back and I'm very happy we are coming back to this positive agenda both in Israel in the Middle East nowadays and I'm very happy that we have neighbors around us or a bit further away that are subscribing to this positive agenda and cooperation and I do hope that in far away countries in the other side of the world we will have more abilities to to produce positive agenda and to nurture it much more. >> And And that right there is a very good point at which we can conclude this this very interesting chat. >> Thank you very much um for giving me the opportunity really to share with you these kind of things. We didn't speak on many other things, but you know, on the Middle East you can have 2 weeks and >> The great thing about podcast is we can revisit it and do another one in 6 months time or another one before you go. >> Okay, yeah, I thank you very much for that and >> Now we can Now we can eat your Israeli biscuits you brought. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The viewers can see them. Good Israeli biscuits and thank you again for this and yes, I will continue this kind of work to link New Zealand and Israel even more so. >> Well, [snorts] all the best on that. Thank you very much. >> Toda raba. Thank you very much. >> Hey now, welcome to the show where the wind's blowing strong and the truth can flow. This is the good oil. Catch a vibe today with Cam Slater leading us all the way from the