The Good Oil Podcast - Episode 33 - Barry Soper

[music] Hey now, welcome to the show where the wind's blowing strong and the truth can flow. This is the good oil. Catch a leading us. >> Welcome to the good oil podcast. Before we get going, let's have a look what's in the humidor. This week we have a Black Works Studio Killer B petite corona. Petite Corona means it's 4 and a half in and it's a smaller ring gauge. This would be a nice 3/4 of an hour smoke. It is mostly Ecuadorian and Nicaraguan tobacco. If you want to learn more about premium cigars and getting premium cigars sent direct to you, contact canteros.n to join either the Hemingway or the Passionados Club. Each month, I'll send you four or five cigars uh with tasting notes so that you can learn about what it's like to actually smoke quality cigars. Welcome to the Good Oil Podcast, episode 33. And with me is Barry Soer. It's taken a long time, Cam. >> A long time. >> Yeah. For you and I to get together and have a yarn. >> Well, we have yarns all the time. We do, as people know. >> Yeah. >> Um but you've written a book. So, I wanted to talk about the book. >> Yeah. >> So, tell us about how it ended up in this format cuz I know a little bit about the backstory on that and I can imagine that you used quite a few exploitives uh when you discovered what had happened in terms of your archives. >> Oh. [laughter] Oh, Lord. Um it was just terrible actually. And I always thought when I was young um I I wrote a daily piece. >> No one can remember when you were young. >> That's right. [laughter] No, it's true that Cam. But um I wrote a daily piece and it would go into the ether and but it was written in written form and I'd assiduously file each day and it went right back to Roger Douglas. So I had several thousand pages in the filing cabinet parliament and I thought um if I ever do get around to writing a book I'll get a researcher in like a Cam Slater go through go through all the stuff and um come up with the uh the good bits and then I can build something around that. But um I had a staff member who assiduously decided he would be uh the tidy trailers in the office and I was um in fact in Australia. I was in Sydney giving a speech and um I got a text from him saying um look be I'm having a bit of a clean up in the office and I thought that's fine. Said yeah okay and that was all and I got back and went to uh file my next piece. The filing cabinet was empty. I was furious is probably a pleasant way to say >> it was so bad. I heard >> I probably >> I you know SOMEBODY SAID WHY DON'T YOU FIRE HIM and I said well the thing is I don't think an employment court would uh uphold a dismissal for somebody being tidy in the office and it wasn't that untidy anyway because they're in a filing cabinet and they're all closed away. And he said to me as an explanation, I said, "Why on earth could you do this?" AND HE SAID, "OH, I LOOKED AT THEM BEARS AND I THOUGHT, "OH, THEY'RE OLD. Nobody be interested." So, h them all out. >> Oh, dear. >> So, um, Harper Collins is on and on and on at me to um do something and like you know, we've sat around and you talk about political stories and [snorts] uh so this one is me interviewing myself basically. I didn't interview anybody else and it's all sort of memories. >> You don't want to interview anybody else. They they might mess it up. >> Well, [laughter] true that, Cam. Yeah. But it's uh Yes. Just memories of um you know the 12 prime ministers that um I had the good or bad for fortune to um work with over the years. >> Well, it was very difficult for me to get a copy of this book ahead of ahead of this podcast. Yeah. >> Um I had to go out to Manacal at the warehouse to get it and they had two copies left and so I grabbed both of them. One's for dad and you're going to sign that. >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. >> Um but yeah, it like I was flicking through and I was thinking there's probably not many people in New Zealand that have met all of these prime ministers. >> And then I was thinking there's only probably two of us who have met them all. >> That's right. >> That's you and me. >> Yeah. [laughter] because cuz I've met all of the people in your book. I've met them. >> Yeah. And um I think it's really fascinating to me why the book has done so well. I never had any expectations honestly of it anyway. So uh when it went out and it sold out within a couple of days of hitting the bookstores and I think there's a curiosity from New Zealanders to know the other side of a household name like a prime minister >> because they don't hear that side. Yeah, >> they don't know what that person's like. They don't know what it's like to, you know, go and breast a bar and have a drink with them >> and [clears throat] what they think and what they feel and what they say. So, uh, that's that was and a lot of people have said to me, which I think is great, which is exactly what I what I wanted. I didn't want it to be a political tome. I wanted it to be an easy read. And so many people have said to me, it's an easy read. I really enjoyed it. So, >> it's not like the Simon Collins book, you know, where he said it was fiction, but it really wasn't. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Well, you know, you you try and keep it real. And um you know, when you go through all the prime ministers that we've known, uh there's some very very good ones. There's some um >> mediocre and there's some shockers. Yeah. >> So, let's start it. You [snorts] start with Moldun. >> Yeah. >> Right. Uh my memories of Moldun are from when I was a kid really. >> Um [clears throat] you know, there was people used to sing little songs. I mean, he's quite a polarizing figure. There was the bad and the good [snorts] and and he didn't care either way as long as they were talking about him. >> Yes. >> Um you know and and like nationalally MPs people like Morris Williams and they used to call him the little gruntter. >> Yes. Of course. >> Right. >> Um and so I heard a lot of stories about Moldun and I held him in sort of awe as a kid and then I met him for real. >> Yeah. >> And and I can't remember the election. I'd need to look it up but it was the the it was at [clears throat] Remuera. >> Mhm. And that was when there was the Remy electorate. Y >> and it was after Alan Hyatt had retired and Doug Graham took over. Y >> and Mulun tipped up >> in the early 80s. >> Yeah. So tipped up at at the at the on election day and I was there with my dad, >> a teenager I think at the time. And um he came in and I thought he's a wee man. >> He is. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Small in stature, big in roundness, but >> Yes. Yeah. But uh he walked him that and you know his little grunt congratulations uh congratulations Graeme. >> Yeah. You called everyone by their last name. >> He would he never ever called me Barry. Mr. >> was always Mr. Cyper. That's the old you know the old RSA generation. Yes. >> And I always said of Mold Dune that um he was a totally unusual character and I don't think he was very good at making long-term mates. I don't think he I think he carried a fairly significant chip on his shoulder and I explain it by thinking that he had in his cabinet very senior members like um uh McIntyre uh Duncan McIntyre and John Marshall um and these and David Thompson. These were very senior people in the military when Maldun was serving overseas. >> McIntyre. >> Yes indeed. and uh Moldun sort of made it to a Lance Corporal and uh back in civilian life >> like another Lance Corporal. [laughter] >> Yeah. Well, that's right. >> Well, I hope he wasn't any good at painting. >> But, you know, um and I think he always felt even though he was well and truly the boss. No doubt about that. I think he always felt it was Jack Marshall that actually took him through his final cost accounting examination when they were in Italy together. And um so he in a way I think in civilian street lived in awe of these people and then he became the prime minister and these people were working beneath him and I think you know he was never entirely comfortable but always as you say always wanted to win and always wanted to have people talking about >> fight >> well that's Rob's mob you know I mean he commandeered Rob's mob and um there were a number of people to fight in the corner with Maldun when there was a suggestion that may be rolled by Brian Tallboy. Tallboys wasn't actually interested in in it at all, but nevertheless, um, Mulun drum them up and poor old Bulier tried that years later, but didn't really work. I I remember going I think it was out at the Worry Wool Store if I remember correctly, going to a speech by Moldun. Dad dragged me out and said, "You got to come and see this." I was there with Morris Williamson as well because it's the Eden Electric Boys back in the day. and um and and Mold Dun was was banging on and and had a huge crowd there. You know, it's sort of crowds that Winston Peters is getting these days, right? >> Y >> and um and Morris Williamson piped up and said something >> and Moldun stopped >> complete silence in the Wall store, right? >> Zet Williamson. Yeah, he knew who Morris Morris wasn't an MP at the stage, right? Zetu Williamson. Yes, you're going on again about things you don't know anything about. And then he just carried on. >> That's, [laughter] you know, he you remember the first person I remember that was in his cabinet as a senior cabinet minister that had a go at him. It was here in Oakuckland and it was at a national party conference. Mold was the prime minister at the time and there was this very maleifuous Burl Ives type voice from the audience poked up and said something about the way the economy was heading. It was Douglas Graham. Yes. And Doug challenged him, [snorts] which was virtually unheard of that you didn't challenge. That's how he got. >> He knew. Yes, exactly. [laughter] He knew exactly what was happening, why it should be happening, where it should be going. But of course, as we all know, in the final years of the mood, well, he was he he had put the country in an economic ice box, frozen wages, and um everything. wage price freeze, >> wage prize freeze, carous days, just all sorts of >> it was just terrible. And um so you know he I think because the liquor had got the better of him in that last few years uh in the beehive that I think he wasn't lucid at all and certainly verbally he wasn't lucid very much and um I remember the night and everybody remembers the immortal television u piece where he saidction >> yeah it doesn't leave my opponents much time right up to the action does it um but he was sober then compared to a couple of hours before I'd seen him up at government house and I saw him go in and there [snorts] was a function going on at government house and uh all I remember during the course of the evening was a butler uh with his hand sort of back with a silver tray and a glass of scotch on it and he'd be fing this in to Moldun in the little anti room off the foyer and um Moldun emerged uh uh having decided that he would parogue Parliament. I'm sure a lot of people didn't know what parogue meant in those days, including myself, but it was. And um >> you didn't have the internet to look it up either. >> No, that's right. So Moldin emerged on the front steps of Parliament, and there was only myself and one other journalist. And um he was as pissed to beat the band. He, you know, he could barely stand up. And uh when I asked him a couple of questions and the burning issue then was Marilyn Wearing uh who he always accused of making the government fail uh he was he couldn't he couldn't explain himself at all. And I've never had it before that the governor general actually took over the interview from Mulun whilst Mulun was piled into the Ltd limousine to take him back to parliament to sober up. So what you saw that was a couple of hours later. So you can imagine what he was like a few hours before that. I >> I think history hasn't been kind to Robert Moldun. >> I [clears throat] used to despise the guy. I thought he was an arch socialist. >> Um but looking back on some of the things that he did or his government [clears throat] did like think big and all of those things that was investing in infrastructure. >> That was also you know when we had carless days and we had fuel crisis and all of those things that we're experiencing now. >> Yeah. He foresaw that this would happen again. And so he instigated, >> if you look at most of the think big projects, they're about energy self-sufficiency. >> Yeah. >> And stupidly, we've let that slide. Well, we've let it slide in our own conscience that or consciousness that um you know I said to somebody was at the Oakland writers week uh and um in my audience somebody asked me about um Maldoon and not doing much for the country other than bringing it to its knees. Well, when I reminded them that it was Moldun that built the Clyde High Dam and um flooded half of Cromwell doing so >> and Monteneui >> with the [laughter] well with the help of um two social credit votes. Yes. Uh and where would we be today without the Clyde high dam that's one and like you said the montenew synthetic petrol >> expansion >> yes there was so much that went on in terms of infrastructure then that people tend to forget and I suppose it's a long time ago now >> it is a long time ago but >> if it wasn't for those expansions like Huntley expansion all of those things were done under think big >> all the smug people driving around in their electric cars right now >> have actually got Moldun to thank. Yet they're probably the same people that were opposed to the Clyde High Dam and everything like that. There was massive protest for all of these projects >> and I was going to bankrupt us. It was going to this do this. It was going to do that. Well, it's actually made it >> tolerable even though we've got high fuel prices now that all these things. So, you know, I've in the goodness of time revised my opinion of Mold. >> Yeah. Um, you know, for years he was public enemy number one, even after he died. You know, I can remember national MPs saying, you know, before his funeral, they're all going to go up to the to the, you know, cemetery and and drive a steak through his heart to make sure the little grunt actually was dead. You know, that's how much he was despised by his own party and everybody else. >> I'll tell you, I ran into Tammy at um the writers festival. I was talking to him because Tama wouldn't be now into his 80s I would imagine >> and uh he was reflecting on Moldun and a lot of people tend to forget that Maldun had the gangs up to his office and would castigate them telling them we're being bad boys and he would expect them to do better. Nobody else had ever done it before. >> [snorts] >> uh Tammy he um cuz he told me the other day that he had respect for Mulun uh because Mulun was a Kiwi first and foremost and believed that he was doing the right thing for the country which wasn't always the case but then that's politics. >> It is politics and and you get you know politicians get demonized they get um uh >> you know all sorts of things happen to them. You look through that list of pol of, you know, prime ministers that that you've interviewed that you've talked to, almost all of them have have been at some point demonized for for what they did or what they didn't do. >> A whole lot of them. That's what I've said actually, Cam, in the book that I think uh to be a prime minister is a hell of a job. It's uh not one that I would enjoy because you live in a goldfish bowl and you're doing it 247 basically. Uh and you've got fishermen over the looking over the bowl like me dropping the bait in and hoping they'll take it. It's a it's not a it's not a good life. I think it's a lonely life. A few of them have had um good advisers, but not all. And I've often said to prime ministers in this country, if I was doing their job, I would get somebody I didn't particularly like that much that would tell me, you know, what's what and that what you should be doing and what looks better and what have you. Uh but they tend to surround themselves fans and as a result they that's why they're lonely because they don't have viciferous argument. When we go back to Moldune, Mulun's one of the best companies that Muloon enjoyed was journalists because we would all argue with them and I was only a whippersnapper and you'd argue with him and um and you know and he would give as good as he got and unfortunately though when you had a few too many he would go on air and that's why I dubbed it the schnap selection. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. Sometimes you get those um those little things that you can put on your on your lapel. You can wear that badge. I invented that term. >> Yes. >> I I reckon that that uh that this budget that's coming up from uh Nicola Willis, I think that's going to get labeled the Ozenmpic budget. [laughter] >> Well, you know, who knows? I mean, it's um this is one hell of a time at the moment, I think, for tight. People think that the government's got the answer for everything, but they don't. But the problem is, Cam, I think that um when you when you're running up to an election like we saw with Winston this week talking about buying back the billion zed, you can say all sorts of things and um you know to get to color the public vote and national wasn't innocent of that in the leadup to the last election. Oh, they were terrible. We're going to get everything back on track. Is it >> that's they created the impression that look, this is going to happen in fairly short order and and of course it can't. When you've seen a government borrow $60 billion, you've got an interest rate bill of 10 billion a year. You know, the economy is not doing quite what it should be doing and it does take time. >> You can talk it up all you like, but you said you told us that you were going to get things back on track. Are they? Yeah, >> that's the next natural question that should be asked by every journalist. Well, is it back on track, Prime Minister? >> Well, it's not. And we But he knows that. I mean, I've talked to Luxon quite a lot about it. And um I think even he now realizes that the job that he was taking over was probably tougher than what he thought it would be when he saw the state of the >> interesting. Although when you you know like he he loves the phrase that they used to spray money around with a bazooka and there was an element of truth in that with Grant Robertson and the Labour party that unbridled power three years they had that uh you know I don't know about you Cam but I had um business people coming to me and saying look we've been given this money we actually do not need it and I said we'll give it back and I and they'd say you don't look a gift horse in the mouth >> but but you know they were getting money that they actually didn't leave uh need and um you know it was a terrible time. >> Well, those figures only came out this year on how much of the co borrowing actually went on co things like [snorts] it was less than 50%. >> The majority went on pet projects for whoever put their hand up or their hand out um had it filled with filthy government Luca >> and um projects that would make justinda look good. M well then let's just talk about Justinda Ardun right because you've copped a bit of flack because you've been honest about her. Now >> I can remember in 2008 David Farah and I were in Morrenville >> and we had remember we had the blog mobile. We were running around in a mobile home that we had donated to us for our troubles. We ended up in Morrenville and an act guy there, can't remember his name now, said, "Oh, we'll come around. We'll have lunch." Whatever. Okay, we'll go around. And next minute, just rocks up, >> right? And it turns out she's a family friend. And he thought it'd be interesting for her to [snorts] come and talk to us. So, we had lunch, you know, three or four hours. We were sitting there talking and I came, you know, we left after that and we had to head off somewhere else in the in the blog mobile. I said to Farah, "Hah, what did you think?" He says, "Oh, I think she's great." >> I said, "I thought she was >> Did she have political aspirations?" >> This is 2008, so she was kind of like on the cusp of getting into parliament, >> but everything she said just sounded like a slogan that she had learned. >> And I got I got the impression, and it's never changed. Yeah. >> That she wasn't that smart. >> No. See the thing is and I say to to people you can imagine you know going to the Oakland writers festival the the literati is not very uh happy about any criticism of just but >> your book's out selling hers though. >> Well true [laughter] but but when I was telling when I was telling them I said look the thing is we live in a democracy. I've got a right to have a view of this person. I worked very close to her for five years, traveled with her, um, and dealt with her virtually day after day. So, I was in a pretty good position to know what this person was actually like. And, uh, you know, and it doesn't it didn't take me long to arrive at the conclusion that there wasn't a lot there. I'm not saying she's dumb. She's actually quite an intelligent person, but she was totally unsuited to politics. And when she talked about kindness, uh, there was nothing kind about the two-month lockdown that Oaklanders went through. >> There's nothing kind about anything. >> But, you know, a broadcaster came to me the other day, Cam, and he said, "Oh, Barry, I'll show you um a photo of my mother, her deathbed, and he showed me this photo. [snorts] There were two two people standing outside the window of a hospital, their hands up against the window pane. There was a guy inside the room that looked like an astronaut. He was dressed up in all this uh gear [snorts] and that was them saying goodbye to their mother and they went allowed in and that you know you you can preach kindness. You can allow though people to make their own decisions when it comes to that sort of thing. And um I'm sorry you can say you're as kind as you like. I saved 10,000 [ __ ] people. No. Well, exactly. You can say that. And she did. This is the year of deliverance. What was delivery? >> Delivery. Yeah. Nothing. Nothing was >> you know that that that you like you said there were all cliches and tags that she uh added to everything. >> Yeah. We're going to build a 100,000 houses. >> Oh yeah. Phil Tweford had Yeah. Well, he's still in Parliament still banging away. Yeah. And you know that and the thing that >> he couldn't run a bath. The thing that the thing that interested me was when um Chippy um uh Chris Hipkins took over from well it was really meant to be Grant Robertson but he was a bit ill at the time so the mantle was handed to um Chris Hipkins. Well, Chris Hipkins, I think, spend spent the most of that year trying to distance himself from the Adurn government. And you'd go, "Hang on, you >> this guy was the co minister. He was the minister of health at one stage. Police, >> education, everywhere there's a problem." >> Yes, he was. >> He was the minister and now he goes, now he's uh on the campaign trail saying we should forget all that. And you know, I mean, the man, you know, can't be held responsible for everything that happened during the co period in that last three years of the Labor government. Yeah, he can. >> But he's been pretty close to it. Yeah, exactly. >> I mean, I banged into Chris Hipkins on Saturday. >> He was up here in Oakland doing his, you know, much vaunted Oakland trip. And I'm sitting thinking, why are you making a big deal about visiting Oakland? Like, [ __ ] off, mate. Like, seriously. >> So, here he was in a cafe in Manau. I'd just finished church and was having lunch with my mates. >> Yeah. >> And they were all going, "Hey, don't don't look around, but Chris Hipkins has come in." >> Yeah. >> I said, "All right, say nothing. Wait till he buys his um uh his meal." And then sits down and then I'll go and [snorts] talk to him [laughter] because you can't bolt. >> You can't escape. >> So, he sat down. He had his little iPad and I got up and walked over. Oh, hi Chris. How are you? >> Um just like to say hi and give you an invite to come on come on my podcast. He goes, "Oh, I don't think I don't think I could I could do that." And I said, [clears throat] "Well, you want to be the prime minister, don't you?" >> And you've got a lot of viewers and listeners. So, >> so we had a little discussion. I talked about the polls. He said, "I think the polls are going really great." And I didn't point out to him the flaw in his thinking around that, but >> but um he again, he struck me as a wee man. >> He's um you know, he's tainted basically by um Justinda Durn and that Labor government. And then you you look at uh him and what he's actually potentially leading uh after the election. He's leading the Greens and they for the first time will have a probably a seat at the cabinet. >> I did you see what the Greens said yesterday >> and the MAI party sorry >> the Greens come out and they said um oh the Israeli embassy's moving and it's terrible. They're going into another building that's got other tenants and you know that might they might be harmed if the embassy's blown up. Oh >> for goodness sake, >> right? Oh yeah, >> this is the the nutty stuff that these the Greens aren't green anymore. >> No, no, they're cultural Marxists. >> Get back to their knitting and you know they've lost that knitting. >> I don't think they'll ever get back. >> And that's why Helen Clark in her time never had a green or never coalesed with the Greens, let alone let them anywhere near a cabinet. >> Helen [snorts] Clark's an interesting character. I mean, I I despise her politics. I admire her ability. >> Yeah. And I think she was I won't say a great prime minister, but I think she was a good prime minister. Um, and her and Cullen did steer the economy through some some pretty torid times. [snorts] And everyone, you know, talks about Bill English and and you know, we we missed out having a great, you know, prime minister even was prime minister for a little bit. >> And I and I pointed out to them that he wouldn't have done anything different, right? that that Cullen and English, if you look at their what they did in finance, were almost identical. >> And Labor, >> they were conservatives, >> very conservative. Um, you know, Cullen had a bit of a nasty streak to him, you know. Um, >> rich prick. >> Bridge prick. Yeah. >> Let Yeah. um we've spent it all and you know >> but Helen Clark when you look at Helen Clark I think you know why I've sort of singled her out is you know uh pretty good at the job of being prime minister is that she was able to lead people and the important thing about a prime minister is keeping your team together and [snorts] them uh understanding what you're trying to achieve and I think >> all cowed >> well no that's True. It probably there's a prime minister of truth a good prime minister who had a great chief of staff. >> Yep. >> Right. >> And it and and it it worked really well too when she had Mike Monroe there. >> Yeah. >> Because he was that person that you were talking to the press secretary. >> Yeah. The press secretary who would say uh no prime minister that's that's not going to fly. And she's look um a lot of people misunderstand Helen. may see her as very dur, you know, not a outgoing personality, but you know, I've I've known her ever since she came into parliament and um I've known her socially like you do all the prime ministers over time and uh she's got a great sense of humor. She's uh you know they often said that the softest part >> of Helen Kite was a tea [laughter] but in fact you know I remember and I recounted a [clears throat] a bit of a story there about traveling overseas with her and she came and sat with me and tears were rolling down her cheeks because her auntie had died and her auntie she said was as close to her as her mother and so there's that side and when when my own mother died um I was on the way to the airport and before I even got to the airport the phone had rung. God only knows how she knew that she knew when I arrived at the airport that um I was going down to my mother who had died. And so, you know, she had a finger >> on everything. On everything. >> Yeah, she did. >> Yeah. I mean, the thing is, you know, if you got a if you were a Labour MP and you said something [snorts] and it came to the attention of uh of Heather >> Yeah. >> H2. >> Yeah. Uh, and she called you and said, "You need to be here in my office in 5 minutes. If you weren't five if you're on time, you were late." >> Yeah. >> Right. And you were about to get addressing down. [snorts] >> Um, Jim Bulier had um had Michelle Bog obviously and and a couple of other people. >> Um, >> Paul Plameumber was there for Jim. >> That's right. >> Look, um, Jim because >> John Key had Wayne Eagles. >> That's right. >> Right. And Wayne Eagles, if he called you up, you listen to him. >> Yes, you do. Yeah, you do. >> I don't know who Luxon has got. >> That's true. >> Right. I don't know. >> That's exactly what I've said that he what he needs is somebody like that that would tell him >> which way is up. >> And let me tell you, it isn't Rachel Smallley. >> No. [laughter] No. >> I mean, she's working there now. I mean, I used to mock Rachel terribly when she was at at News Talk cuz >> I I overheard her once muttering that she was the smartest person in the newsroom, right? Back when you're at the old building up here in Oakuckland. >> And and I just I I remember all those sorts of things. And so I'd mock her mercilessly about that. And one time she was on air and she was, you know, uh, talking about this new NASA space thing, um, that had been launched up into space and it was called the Kepler >> um, [clears throat] satellite or whatever it was. Um, named after Johannes Kepler, >> but she said, "Oh, I don't know if NASA has done the right thing naming naming their satellite after a bulletproof vest." And I snipped that audio out >> and and just put it on YouTube and just kept on, you know, referencing it. Anytime anyone said Rachel, >> you are a nasty man. Poor old Rachel. What she ever done to you? >> Oh, I don't know. I was in the studio. >> No, don't go into it. There's probably some >> I was in the studio. Remember when they had um >> uh the drive time, Larry? >> Larry >> and I used to be on the on the quite regularly, right? And Larry and I had a a very good rapport. Um, and I'd come on and I'd have a few funny things to say and and it was great. And it's got all very serious now. I know Heather's doing her best, you know. I can't can't talk badly about your wife [laughter] there. >> No, of course not. >> But they they didn't have me on since 2014, obviously. >> Yeah. But um I remember Larry was away once and Rachel was um filling in and I was in I came in and did it in the studio and I was looking at her this far away, you know, across the across the thing. >> And um I used to play a game with my [snorts] readers. I'd say I'm going to be on News Talk tonight. What are the three words that you want to you want to hear me say in my response to any questions? You know, >> and they decided that lardo and he were the two words that they wanted to hear me. Yeah, >> cuz she got in trouble of course. >> Yeah, >> saying, "Oh, what's that?" He said, "She's a bit of a lard." So anyway, and she asked me some question and it turned out to be about a politician who was, you know, rotunded. >> Yeah. >> And I said, "Oh, you know, he's a bit of a heer, you know, a bit of a ladder." And she just looked daggers across me through her very thick glasses that she used to wear. Um, and I don't think she ever forgave me for that, you know. >> Well, see, broadcasting I think, well, thank goodness. Um I think the government seen sense and is doing away with the um broadcasting standards authority because some of the stuff they're a bit like the Wangi tribunal some of the stuff that they involved themselves in was unbelievable. Yeah. and um and some of the findings that they would make and you know fine a news organization several thousand dollars for I mean they would have they would have ruled against old Sea Plunkett for saying mumbo jumbo and you've today you've got to have a bit of a sense of humor >> I think got to have a sense of humor >> and it's not offensive it's it may be offensive to some people but it's a bit like when I criticize just I think I've you know I've done my time I know her better than most people and I'm entitled to an opinion just as they are. And I'll tell you a good example of it. Um uh Wallace Chapman who is an old television uh friend of mine. Um >> he's another Fiji boy. >> Yeah, that's right. I went into um Radio New Zealand Studios. I'd never been into a Radio New Zealand studio in my life. And I went and I ran into Wallace. from Wallace, you know, made a big fuss and um got his photo taken with me. Well, uh and then posted it on Facebook and then he'd get attacked >> the nasty um comments below it. And I think hang on, none of these people actually know me. They might not like my views, but you don't have to get abusive and call people oves and, you know, has been. >> But there's all sorts of stuff like that. I I know that with this podcast there's going to be a whole bunch of leftwingers who go, "I knew it." You know, Barry Soap is a closet rightwing. Well, I'm just talking to you cuz you're interesting and you've been around politics for for as long as I have. >> You know, you got a few more years on me. >> That's right. >> But but I think you look at politicians in kind of the same way that I do that they're humans. >> They do make mistakes. Some do things out of the goodness of their heart for the country or whatever and some are deeply flawed people and Maldun was a deeply flawed person. But I think what he was trying to do and he was out of his depth doing is what he what he thought was the best for the country. He was wrong. >> Yeah. On some cases. >> On some cases. But he was perceptive about others. Yes. >> And you again look at Jim Bulier, right? The guy that has, you know, to my it's probably the prime minister that I've known the most. Yeah. >> Um came to my wedding. Um >> wrote, you know, numerous letters to me. Um you know, >> uh I can remember him before he he rolled um >> Jim Mlay. >> Jim Mcclelay. A couple of months before he rolled Jim Mcclelay, he was sitting >> by my mom's piano um at their house. >> Please. They didn't let him sing, did they? >> No. No. Winston Peters was over by the fireplace with a scotch and a cigarette. Yeah, >> right. Cuz [snorts] he lit one cigarette off the next. >> He was holding court over there and Jim Bulier was sort of sitting by himself. Had his I still remember him. He had his pants, you know, reefed up like you do and the socks showing. Yeah. >> And he had a scotch there and I was talking to him and he was talking to me like [snorts] I wasn't a kid. >> This is what I learned that I could do these things that they were talking to me like I wasn't a kid. >> And I said to him, "Oh, Jim Mcclelay's doing a good job, isn't he?" and and Bulier looked me in the eyes sort of and he said, "Uh, Jim's a nice man, but you know, I'm not sure that he's cut out to be the leader." And then two months later, >> cut his throat. >> Yeah. >> You know, so >> well, you know, the thing about poor old Jim Mcclelay and because I remember >> and he is a nice guy. >> Yeah. Well, Maldun, a bit like Longie, was a very good person with oneliners. And I said to Mold Dun once, I said, um, "Are you going to be a thorn in Jim Mcclelay's side after he took over from more like a little prick?" >> And of course, he was. And the other one, the one liner I remembered was um David Long on his way into a caucus meeting once and the journalist yelled out to him, "Prime Minister, Prime Minister, a word." and long as quick as a flesh turned to him and said wombat and then walked [laughter] in walked into the and see that humor in politics I really love and that you know there have been people in the time that I've been there through the place like the Trevor decleans uh the great speakers that we don't quite have today um um certainly David Longi was you know great orator he would rise to a crescendo and then you know fade out to almost a whisper and have the audience, you know, clutching their seat listening to him. But he was, dare I say it, not unlike just a performative politician rather than somebody that got into the nuts and bolts like fortunately he had Roger Douglas to do. Speaking of performative, when the the movie Prime Minister came out or whatever it's called, >> Durn's movie Durn's movie came out, you know, that that I always called him Jethro because I always thought he looked like a Jethro, right? Um I always suspected uh just through observation and I'm I'm not often wrong on the observation. I always suspected that uh that are Durn's entire leadership bid and prime ministership was entirely performative. >> Yeah. And that was confirmed when the news about the the movie was talked about when they said that they had cameras with her >> virtually from the time she >> from the time she decided to become um the leader of the Labour Party and then afterwards and that told me everything that I had suspected. I mean I wrote a very very long article about 3,000 words about all the prime ministers that I'd met. Certainly not a book like you've done, but >> I I came to the conclusion that of all of the prime ministers that I met and the same ones that you have that that many of them had good intentions but poor execution. Yes. >> Or all of these things, but one person stood out >> and because of her actions and behavior and everything else that I said that was the one politician that I despised. I don't really despise a lot of politicians. I despise their policies or or their ideas but not them themselves. >> But I despised um uh Durn and I said she was entirely performative >> and that in doing so in being performative in that way and that and being ultimately dishonest about her intentions >> that made her evil >> and I got you these very porative terms but >> I do. I always have. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Adun I you know I don't disagree with much that you've just said about her and I I'd already written the book and then I thought oh well I better have a look. So the book was put to bed and uh I thought I better have a look at this movie if I can suffer it for that long. So I did watch it. >> You're a better man than I am. But it's but it's exactly the conclusion that I had at the end like the cameras being with her from the start and the quivering bottom lip uh that was done you know almost like a shoot uh cut. We'll take that. That's a good cut. And it was just it was an act right from the start. And if you translate that movie into her real life at the time she was the prime minister. She but she was an actor and um and a bad somebody said how how could you call her an imposttor? I said look >> she she called her the imposttor she said I suffer from imposttor syndrome and I simply said she's right and she did and I think even Winston Peters who um appointed her to the job even though national had won 7% more of the votes. Well, Bill English and you know that. >> Well, no. Well, that's true. But, um, you know, Winston, I think, uh, would, if you got him on a an honest, quiet moment, would admit that yes, he did make a mistake. It shouldn't have been Justinda. >> I've talked to him about that and he does say that, but he also says Bill English drove him into that position because he just simply refused to negotiate. >> Yeah. He he described to me the situation where Bill English was across the table from him [snorts] >> and Bill English had a cup of tea and he was scribbling on his pad taking no interest at all the discussions around him >> and the people that were leading the discussions that I've heard that too. Yeah. Jerry Brownley >> and who was there was another in there >> um as well. >> They had the wrong people in the room with Winston. They had Paula Bennett in there. M >> he knew that she had been involved in the leaking of the information um on his pension. So having her in the room, they should have had Todd Mcclelay in that room. >> That his father worked for Winston. >> Exactly. Right. Roger Mcclelay um was was a bagman. >> Yeah. For Winston collecting donations and stuff like that. So Todd Mcclelay would have been the right person. Everyone that I know that was around and involved on that on both sides [clears throat] and in the Labour party told me that Winston felt he couldn't go with um Bill English because Bill English wasn't uh acting in >> the country's best interest >> in a in the country. He was being petulant. He was being childish and he was being very personal about Winston Peters >> and like Winston I think expects respect for his position and how long he's been there and all of those things. If you don't give him that, >> he will turn on you. Well, [clears throat] and you you can understand, you know, uh what I really have always enjoyed about Peter's is, in fact, I had dinner with him just the other night, and what I always have liked about him is that um he says it how it is. And the constant battle he has with the media, it's all theater, you know, he will castigate them and get stuck into them. And the first time I ever met uh Winston Peters was in the Wellington town hall and he was introduced to me uh by Don McKinnon. [snorts] And um the first thing that Winston said to me, looked at me and I didn't know him at all and he said to me, "You're the man that drove Keith Allen to an early grave." [laughter] And I went, "What?" And he said, "Because he took over from Keith Allen eventually." And he was the minister of silly walks. You'll remember that. Walked home from parliament, pissed fell into a rose bush. Yeah. had a bit of blood on his shirt and said that he was mugged on the way home and we knew that not to be the case and Moldun defended him to the hilt. So Winston also was uh he's very fond of Rob Moldune. He was then and he still is today I think. But what having said all that I think uh and you can't deny it whether you agree or disagree with him he would be the most consumate politician that I've worked >> I think he's got better I think he's got better >> totally >> like he's running >> he's looking younger now that he's 81 >> he's running rings around Luxon right like like when it was announced they [snorts] having the the three the three-way coalition that Winston was going to be deputy prime minister for the first half of the term >> I sat there and laughed and laughed laughed and laughed and and you know people said to me why why are you laughing about that and I said >> Winston's just um shown where his game plan is for the second half of the term he's going to kick up Bobsy die >> y >> um he's going to fight everybody >> um and he's going to increase his percentage [clears throat] >> which is an interesting you you'd be interested in this um I've been doing a research project and I've been going back through uh all of the you the Anglosphere, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, uh the UK, uh and the European Union and European countries going back to 1945 and looking at small parties going into coalition with big parties. And it's very obvious from the data, and I I'll be publishing this in due course, but the data says that if you're a small party and you go and coalition with a big party, at the next election, you're either wiped out or significantly reduced to being >> And we've seen that happen here. >> We've seen that happen with Winston here three times. >> Yeah. >> None none except one party have ever broken or almost broken that mold. >> And that one party is New Zealand First. and it's this term. >> So then [snorts] I analyzed why it was and all of these minor parties when they went into coalition with the big party almost became an adjunct of the large party and went along with everything they said and did. >> So they're smothered. >> They're smothered. They're smothered by their own kindness. where the solution to to avoiding that appears to be to choose portfolios that you can fight your natural enemies in, >> right? >> Uh and then fight everyone, including the media, >> so that they continue to publish >> that you're fighting. No one likes the media. You know this, right? No one likes the media, right? They think they're bottom dwellers. um and they think they're on the same level if not, you know, slightly um slightly lower than politicians, right? >> So, so that's Winston's strategy. >> You you have a look at it. He's chosen portfolios for his ministers where they can have a fight >> with uh bad marries, with Greens and the Woke, >> and then also with the other parties he's in coalition with. >> And that's exactly what he's done. And attack the media at the same time. Oh, and >> and it's been successful. >> Think about Winston and if you look at this election coming up that um and I always judge Winston's success on how many people he pulls into the town halls and um so West meetings, aren't they? >> Uh the last one big meeting uh and they're interestingly they're all um mainly gray heads. they're older because they like the old style um thub thumping um tub thumping politics. Yeah. And uh and he you know he personifies that and I think does it so well and and he knows too because I talked to him about it that um you know when he sees he can see or feel the movement in the in coming up to an election campaign although he got it wrong in 1996 which I reminded him recently. Um he uh said I was on the campaign part of it with him and as I was leaving a room fairly late one night after having a couple of drinks with Winston I said a couple of drinks. >> I said you'll get you'll get 17 seats Winston. And he said no it's over. I'll get uh 23. I said no you'll get 17. I'm telling you you're getting 17. And he said I'll bet you the best. As I was on my way I'll BET YOU THE BEST BOTTLE of Chardonnay I'll get um I'll get 23. And I went, "Okay." But before I closed the door, he said, "Make that a case." So I went, "Oh, okay." And I thought going back to my room, this could be a fairly expensive bet. [snorts] >> So cut a long story short, of course, he came and he got 17 seats. And when eventually the wine did turn up, took a long >> He does pay his bets. >> Oh. No. But the way he paid it was probably indicative of old Winston that he um rang me and he said, "I got your wine here. So I went, "Oh, yeah. What's Oh, that's good, Winston. just deliver it down. And he said, "Oh, it's not Chardonnay." And I went, "What?" He said, "It's Seavon Blanc." And I actually don't like Seavon Blanc. I went, "Okay." And then he said, "And it's Mills Reef." And I said, and this was a long time ago, 1996, 30 years ago. I didn't know Mills Reef. I said, "Who's Mills Reef?" He said, "THAT GOES TO SHOW HOW MUCH YOU KNOW ABOUT wine soaper." So, um, then he said I said, "Okay, all right, Winston." Yeah, just deliver it. and he, "Oh, there's something else you should know." And I went, "What's that, Winston?" He said, "It's the labels." And I said, "What's wrong with the labels?" They got my photo on them. [laughter] >> Have you still got this bloody campaign wine? >> I've got I've got one at home signed by Winston. It looks like a bottle of urine and probably tastes even worse, although I haven't drunk urine before, but Winston told me he had one as well from that same case. and I made him sign all 12 bottles and gave it to charity. So, it was a good, you know, a good gift to charity. But Winston, yeah, he's a character. >> Do you know what I did to to Trevor Meard once apart from go for the bike ride with him and he was the campaign chair, >> you know, in that election and I challenged him to a cycle ride and then I I would drive around where, you know, I'd pretend to [snorts] be cycling and I'd post these times because you had on your phone you could, you know, you map my ride. >> Yeah. and I'd drive drive around and do it and then post the time and then he'd be out training and training and everything like that. All I did is enough to get around the thing. But another time when I was getting some leaks out of Labor [snorts] and I said and I I put I think I put it on X at the time and said, "I just like to thank the Labour MP um for that's leaked me these documents. It's fabulous. There's a case of wine on its way to you." [laughter] And then I just sent a case of wine to Trevor Meard. He wasn't the one who leaked me. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's that's good. I like that. >> And the other one I did was um uh uh Annette King cuz she keep this is after 2014 and she kept mentioning me in Parliament. [snorts] And um every time she mentioned me in Parliament, of course, my traffic went up and so I sent her a bunch of flowers. >> I think I rang you actually and said, "Get up to Annette King's office and have a look at the bunch of flowers." that's up there and ask her where they came from. And then she gave you a quote, I think, and said it was the most miserable bunch of flowers that she's ever had. [laughter] >> That's right. Like dead roses. >> So I sent her another bunch of flowers and said, "Thanks for the traffic again." [laughter] So I've always tried to, you know, like have fun in in talking about politics. >> Um, and that's what I picked up from, [snorts] you know, years of listening to you. There was always a rise story or something funny. You know that >> yeah like I've always said Cam that you know in the in the business of politics policy is really important but generally policyy's relatively boring but if you look at the personalities they're really interesting what makes people come into politics and many of them uh want to come in because they really would like secretly to be the prime minister in the end. >> They all do. >> Yes. Every politician stands in front of the mirror every morning and says, "If I was prime minister, >> if I was prime minister, I one day I'll be prime minister." They have this hankering to be prime minister. >> And you imagine Luxon, I mean, here's a man that did three years uh as an MP and became prime minister. I mean, you know, that's a tough call. >> I don't think he's a good prime minister. >> Well, no, I think he could be a very good prime minister. And I think um when when the economy starts responding which I think it will not probably this side of the election but after I think you'll find that Luxon I think is largely misunderstood and it's again it goes back to the personal thing that you you know that I know these people and uh Luxon means very well. I'll just give you an example of how he sees himself as just a downto-earth Kiwi and he doesn't come across like that. >> No, he doesn't. That's his >> That's what he is. A a um >> But that's >> a cameraman from the Herald said he was out doing a shoot with uh Luxon and they had this long walk back. Who carried the tripod? Luxon. >> Yeah. >> He said, "Oh, no. Give me that here. Give me that here." Now, there would be very few prime ministers that would offer to do that. But that's the sort of person he is. And I think if people actually understood him or got to know him a bit better, if you talk to people that have been when he's out on the Hustings and talks to people one-on-one, they actually end up really liking him. >> See, that's the thing with the with the National Party these days, though, is that >> Luxon doesn't come across like that, >> right? He comes across as inauthentic because he's I think he's been massaged to be something he's not. And if he was himself, like John Key was always himself. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. He was >> in an embarrassing way on many occasions. >> On many occasions, but he just laughed and carried it off. >> Luxon doesn't do that. And so consequently, he gives this impression that he's inauthentic. And he is because the persona that and the way he speaks, it's the only person who speaks >> worse than him is Nicola Willis, who you feel like you're you're one of your kids being told off all the time. Luxon likes to, you know, he he has these stupid sayings that no one's bashed out of him when he says to you, "Well, Barry, of course, what I would say to you is, >> well, you're you're right there. Just say it. You don't need to say what you would say to me. Just say it." >> And it's frustrating. And um I I just find a disconnect with him that that I've se the other person maybe like who was like that but but more aloof was David Shearer. >> Yeah. >> Right. Where he was a very intelligent person but no way he was going to be a politician. [snorts] >> Well I think I think Luxon's one of Luxon's problems essentially is that you know he was the head of a big corporation. >> That's all he's ever done >> as a CEO. Yeah. Well, as the CEO, when you make a decision, the decision's carried out. When you're a prime minister, you make a decision under this current environment. The decision is debated and may not be carried out at all. So, >> especially if the civil servants are involved in delivery, we don't agree >> prime min. And I think that's that's been really I think quite difficult uh for Luxon to adapt to uh which I think he's starting to do now realize, but certainly not civil servants making the decision. Now if you are >> so that the civil service enjoyed having Ardurn the Ardurn government because they knew they didn't actually have to deal with ministers. >> Yeah. >> And that if they said something and it sounded somewhat reasonable the prime minister would agree with them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so we ended up with the civil service making all sorts of crazy decisions. >> Y >> um Luxen I think is making the failure that all corporate warriors make when they come into politics thinking that [clears throat] because you've issued an order it's going to happen. >> That's right. But he he made the mistake and and he's only just now come out and and said you after the next election we're going to reduce the civil service by 10,000. >> It should have been reduced by 10,000 already. Yeah. >> Right. But he didn't do it. >> It's like it's like Yeah. A lot of the a lot of the things that were said and and Seymour picks up on them all the time like the women's affairs ministry. What is the point? Pacific Islands Ministry. What's the point? >> And there are so and these these are ministries with >> Ministry of Cultural Heritage. >> Tens of them. Yeah. And they cost us tens of millions of dollars a year. And they should have done it. You're right. Broadcasting stands >> at the beginning. Well, they've done it finally now with the Broadcasting Standards Authority. And they're no doubt looking at their naval saying, "Where did we go wrong?" And it's so obvious to anyone where they went wrong. But um >> they went wrong because I reckon what they should have done >> is on day one of uh once they had signed on as the government, they had been sworn in, they should have called all of the civil service heads of department, the finance people um and maybe two or three tiers down in the management of the civil service. Called them all up, got them into somewhere, you know, suitable like I don't know the stadium or does Michael Fall's center get used these days? I don't know. call them in there. The finance people are told to bring their accounts with them and leave them on the table. Read the riot act. Say this is what's happening. You're going to go back to your staff now and you're going to get rid of 10%. Don't care how >> they said six >> or whatever. Right. >> But then and if you don't do it, you're next. >> Yeah. >> And if you don't like that, leave now. >> They didn't do that. >> And it was business as usual. And and that's the problem I have with the National Party is that they are always the party of the status quo. >> They don't change the the big changes are 30 years old now. Bruce Richardson made big changes. What's the National Party done since then? >> The status quo. >> Yeah. >> And that's their problem. Whereas you got people like Winston Peters now who's coming out and saying, "I'm going to shake up this. I'm going to do that. We're going to investigate that." And people are going, "Oh, okay. Action. All right." >> Yeah. I know. I know, >> but you and I know Winston very well. >> Like it's the BNZ thing. I suspect that that's a thing he can throw on the table and then blame his coalition partners for not >> for not going with it. Yeah. >> That um I mean the Bank of New Zealand um you'll remember it was the old nos no buts no May of Jim Bulier ironically talking about superanuation saying that he would scrap the super sir tax that Roger Douglas has introduced. Well, when he saw the state of the BNZ's books, they had to pay out a 380 million at the start and then over the in several interventions later, a billion dollars had been paid to bail out this bank and then it was sold after they bailed it out to the NAB. But um there it is now. It's firmly enscconced with the MA NAB and you've got New Zealand. We want they've got the Kiwi Bank for goodness sake. Make them make them stronger and then as a government go and bank with them. don't bank with Westpack, which is what they do. >> So, see, there is an argument to be say, well, hang on a second. The government owns an airline. >> The government owns testing stations. The government owns all these businesses. Like David Farah came out and he said, "Oh, can you just imagine the B&Z board stacked with political cronies? There's a thousand crown enterprises that have boards that are stacked with political cronies. We won't mention them, [snorts] >> you know. Oh, but if if B and Zed happened, that would be terrible." Yeah. And I'm sitting there thinking maybe there is a business case for it. But [snorts] the problem with politicians business cases is they're all built on >> opium. >> It's like, you know, oh, we're going to build a bike bridge across the harbor or we're going to have light rail to the airport. But it's [ __ ] >> right? >> That's the nature of politics, unfortunately. Now, my my listeners would be think I'd missed the boat if I didn't ask you some questions about the current goings on inside the press gallery >> and um the shenanigans that are going on there, which have always occurred, but it's always been a a de facto sort of cone of silence. [snorts] >> Um, everyone's trying to say that there's this vast right-wing conspiracy that saw the end of Mikey Sherman. My position is is Mikey Schum saw the end of herself. >> Well, [snorts] she was the author of her own misfortune. >> And it isn't just calling Lloyd Burr a [ __ ] right? Um that there's another backstory to that, >> you know, that that I'm not willing to share just yet. I'm wanting to see if Lloyd will come come clean on it. >> I doubt whether he will, but um >> it's pretty bad. >> Yeah. The look the only thing I'd say about the press gallery at the moment is it's changed significantly from when I first went there in 1980. I went there as a political editor. So I saw the boss of the my little my little domain. [snorts] Um and I was young. I was in my late 20s. Uh and I was by far the youngest in the press gallery per se. The average age of those in the press gallery when I went in was probably um be mid to late 30s, mid-4s. Uh now you've got very young people in the press gallery that don't have a lot of life's experience. And I'm not I don't want to attack them because they're all many of them are very good journalists. It's just that um it's not the easy easiest environment if you haven't had experience elsewhere. Um but you know I mean people can watch press conferences and make their own judgment about it. The thing that used to really get up my nose was at the press conferences with justind and this is a good example. Well >> yeah to Jess but you would adune manipulated the media like nobody else I've ever seen. She would go you know to Jess and then they would have follow-ups and what have you. anyone else. I'd be like a barking dog from the sidelines and I'd be prime uh uh and you'd finally get a question and she knew it would be a difficult one and then as soon as she had not answered it, said something ridiculous, she would point away and I'd go, "But hang on, I haven't finished away and point to somebody else." So, it was an absolute manipulation of the media. You never got the opportunity to follow up. And that's the problem in the gallery. >> Instead of covering the point of putting their hands up, I mean it was like at school in the end putting their hands up hoping the prime never like that with >> Mun. Oh, you know, >> but it's never been like that with any prime minister. >> Mr. Scott, you need to leave. >> Yeah. [laughter] Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, so but yeah, it was ridiculous. Um, and I think journalists there have been cowed to some extent. Not all of them. There are some very good ones, but they've been cowered by um parliament and because they don't have a lot of experience elsewhere um they tend to be manipulated even more so does that go back to before that time of Ardurn does it go back to maybe you know Nikki Hager writing books and and threatening I mean that's what he did he stood there >> and threatened journalists that if they didn't change their ways in speaking to me that he would out them. >> Yeah. Well, I mean that that's peripheral politics, >> but that's what he did. >> Yeah. Yeah. But um you know, the the gallery itself is, you know, it's a it's a a bunch of young people very well educated these days. They um normally have a postgraduate degree to get into government. >> It doesn't mean anything. >> No, it doesn't. And unfortunately, even if you have stud studied political science, it's the uh being actively involved in politics is where you learn what the science of politics is. >> See, I've had a lovehate relationship with with members of the gallery. Right. [clears throat] There's some members [snorts] of the gallery or some of them not members anymore >> that have um won awards off stories that I've >> Oh, yeah. I've won an award off a story you gave me, [laughter] camp. >> Yeah. But um I remember you you wrote about Duncan Ghana in the book. [clears throat] >> Yep. >> I had an incident with Duncan Garner where in 2014 where he rang me up. >> I remember where I was at the time. I was uh out at Manau in a in a warehouse with a working in an office there. That's where I did all my blogging from actually back then. >> He said to me, he says, "I'm going to wreck you." This was his opening line on the phone call. I'm going to wreck you. I said, "Oh yeah, Duncan. What? Give it your best shot. What are you going to do?" He says, "It doesn't matter. I'm just going to make it all up and everyone will believe me because I'm at TV3 and uh and no one will believe you and I'm going to destroy you." I said to him, "Fill your boots, right? See See how you get on." What he didn't know at the time was that I was recording that phone conversation and I sent it to his boss and I said, "I'm waiting for the wrecking." Well, I I I had a very >> Did his boss take any action? Well, I about an hour later I had a call back from Duncan Garner saying, "Oh, look [snorts] man, I like I had a bit of a boozy lunch and I I said things out of order and >> that's how he was told to." >> Yeah, but that's that was that was one there and the other one was Patrick Gower who sort of lost the plot a bit when he ended up on TV. I think he was an earnest journalist at the Herald. Yeah. And then when he ended up on TV, he got really big for his boots. And I I remember he went with you um to Afghanistan and you stopped back in Dubai and I was in Dubai at the same time. I was sending you a message saying pop round for a second. [laughter] >> Um that was with key, wasn't it? >> Yes. Yeah. >> Um and I think cow lost the plot at that point and went off the deep end for some reason and was having a real bad time of it there in Dubai. >> I think the problem with see I get on very well with Patty Gar. I find him a very easy man particularly after Duncan Garner. Yeah, >> Dunkey Garner is a very difficult um person and [snorts] I don't say it with any malice to him, but I I think bullies have no place particularly in the business of reporting politics. And the one instance I remember is um uh David Benson Pope, the Labour MP, being driven out of parliament, hounded out and being a nervous wreck in the gall in the um debating chamber day after day for maybe uh he could make a mistake and people would pick up on it. And people like Duncan Garner got great enjoyment out of that. And I think if you get enjoyment out of somebody's absolute discomfort, then uh you shouldn't be in the business. you should be looking elsewhere and I noticed that he did say in one of his pods and I never listened to his podcast but I thought I will have a listen to this one and um he was talking about my singling him out in the book as being a bully and uh he said you know it's a pity that people like Barry Soer uh have to use me to sell their books. Uh I would say to Duncan uh don't don't get or get over yourself for a start Duncan. Yeah, >> that's certainly not what's selling the book. And um >> No, what's selling the book is your I mean, this is the thing, Barry. [snorts] I've listened to you for decades, right? We've spoken regularly >> [clears throat] >> um over stories or or whatever. >> I've never once twiged to what your politics is. >> Yep. >> Right. >> Thank you. Yeah. >> Not once. And people would say, "Oh, bloody [snorts] Barry Soer. He's a friend of Helen Clark." >> No. Barry's just doing his job, right? And that's what my old man has always said about you as well. You know, he always said, you know, there's not many journalists that you can rely on their word, but Barry Soap is one of those. >> Well, you know, uh even my kids don't know the way I vote vote. And they'd always love to. And I've got seven children. Um my five uh grownup children, they have always had me on about which way I voted, but they don't know. And uh interesting about this book, um I've got >> I still don't know how you vote. [laughter] I've got two daughters in um Australia and they've read the book and uh they did not like my comments on Justinda and that's fine. And I've got a daughter in Wellington. Uh she too didn't like the comments that I had about Jatinda Dun. And I I simply said to them, look, we live in a democracy. You're entitled to your view. I know, and dare I say it, I don't want to be arrogant, but I do know Justinda Durn a lot better than what you know her. But it doesn't mean I'm right. It's just that I have a fairly informed opinion of what the this woman was like in the job. >> Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one. >> Exactly. And you're entitled to have it. >> And you're entitled to have it. And you don't shouldn't have to defend your opinion. You can be wrong. [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> It's okay. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. It's what democracy is about. >> And that's probably a very good note on which to finish this enjoyable podcast. Barry, we've got to do a few more of these. >> Yes. No, that was very interesting. Thank you, Cam. Nice being here. >> You're welcome. Thank you. >> Cheers. >> Hey, now welcome to the show where the wind's blowing strong and the truth can flow. This is the good oil. Catch a vibe today with Can Slater leading us all the way from the