The Future MUST Be Communist | A World on Fire #19

We are told in a million different ways that changing the world is impossible. Capitalism, we are supposed to believe, is the natural order of things. But hang on a second. You're listening to a communist podcast, so you probably don't believe any of that. >> Well, you're not the only one. Our generation is beginning to demand the impossible. We reject a system that produces war, famine, and climate disaster. From Minneapolis to Delhi to Serbia to Britain, our generation is beginning to demand the future. Welcome back to A World on Fire. >> Hey. >> Hello. >> How are you? >> Good. How are you? >> Yeah, I'm very well. Very well. >> Missed the podcast. >> Yes, I have. And I hope everyone's [laughter] excited for a new season. Uh we've got lots planned. Yes. >> Where we're going to be talking about all the important questions that are coming up in our conversations that we have >> and especially the most pressing questions that are affecting the youth. Yes. And there's a lot. >> There's a lot. There's a lot. There's a whole list. We're going to be talking about climate change, >> about Cuba, Palestine, militarism, and much, much more. >> And I think we're back probably at the right time because schools are just reopening. >> That's it. >> People are about to get back to university. >> And from what we've heard so far, it really feels like more people are becoming communists than ever. >> This is the point. in all of these schools and universities. I think we're gonna find and the teachers are going to find [clears throat] more communists than ever before. >> Yes. >> And and that's because of well everything that has been happening over the summer over the last year. And I I think this is true also because I see us online all the time on social media. There's this constant I it's probably partly my algorithm, [laughter] but it's not just my algorithm. There's this constant outpouring of like raw political anger >> and this sense from young people who are like going to uni, going to school. They're like, "But the world is still collapsing." >> Yes. >> In fact, often what you see on social media is there'll be a news segment about, you know, war unfolding or, you know, some historic crash in the economy and the top comment is something along the lines of, "Great, this is me just becoming an adult." >> Yeah. And the world is deciding to implode in and of itself. >> Yes. >> And this is radicalizing people a lot. A lot. A lot. >> We've been talking for years about the polls that have come out which suggest an openness to communism and this anti- capitalist sentiment growing in society. >> But you can really feel it in a shift in conversations that you have with people on the streets. >> Yes. It feels almost like when when we sell the paper, when we talk to people that are thinking about getting organized, there is this blanket rejection of capitalism. >> Yes. It's the default. >> It's it's almost becoming a default. Absolutely. And uh whilst uh whilst we're away, obviously there was the anniversary of the American Revolution. >> Yes. >> And Trump has had quite a few things to say about communism. >> He has. I mean, he kind of always does, but he's been really ramping it up recently. But there's this incredible uh speech clip or whatever where he he says communism is a mortal threat >> to America. >> To America. >> Yes. >> And uh >> you can be loyal to Karl Marx or you can be loyal to America. >> Yeah. >> And uh obviously this is great advertisement for communists. >> He's the best recruiter [laughter] probably that we have at the moment because Yeah. as soon as and they've been doing this for a while with all of their Tik Toks about the White House, about war, about deportations, everything they wrap up in the American flag is making a whole generation in the US despise that. >> Absolutely. The failures of the war in Iran. >> Yes. >> And obviously all of the bubbling anger over the Epstein Files. Uh, I remember seeing a viral post over the summer that said that Trump features more in the Epstein Files than Jesus does in the Bible, which which says something. And you were actually on a US TV show recently. >> Yes. >> GB News, a US >> I was on the US the GBS's US show. Did Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi decide to go and beat up officers of the state or indeed smash the back of private security officers at felicidities they disliked? Did they do that or did they think the path to political change was carried through peaceful protest? >> I will take no lectures on the question of violence from anyone who speaks in any support of the US government in any capacity. I have seen and millions of people all over the world have seen over the last 3 years the most disgusting barbaric videos of violence coming out of Gaza because of what the IDF has been doing because they've been backed to the hilt by the US government. >> Trump seems to have realized that uh Palestine Action, the activist group in Britain has been deemed a terrorist organization and he's thrown in his two cents and said, "Yeah, that's right." >> He must have struggled to know what the hell to say. speaking on that topic, right? Donald Trump >> ascribes the terrorist label to someone else. >> I know it's extraordinary the US to the point where >> in that interview it's like it's almost too big to even [laughter] know when you have a fight with someone and you think in the shower what you should have said. >> It's like that on a massive scale [laughter] like to list obviously like okay we're laughing but it's obviously not funny like the the scale of atrocities that US imperialism has unfolded across the world. It's extraordinary. And so that interview was bizarre. Yes. >> Um and I think it struck a chord with people and people are horrified because especially Trump who's such a raw expression of the like naked violent truth of what American imperialism is is about. >> Um it's it's really enraging people basically. And this yeah him declaring Palestine action a terrorist group. It's just another event in the long list of events of of Trump's actions, but also more broadly that is that is really radicalizing and pissing people off >> 100%. And I mean that they're trying this new red scare. It feels like trying to bring it back to the 50s and the 60s with McCarthyism. >> But as uh as we've already said, it's pushing more people to actually think a little bit about what alternatives are possible. Yeah. Cuz I think a feeling that a lot of young people have is, is this it? >> Yes. >> Is this the best that society can do? Especially when >> all of the things that they're taught clash so violently with reality. >> Yes. >> And when they see poverty amidst plenty. >> Yeah. I really think that there's this kind of process taking place where some people, you know, you see Trump say that and then you think, well, yeah, know maybe I am a communist in a in a kind of shallow superficial way. But then it's like they're like, "Well, hold on a second." >> Yes. [laughter] Yeah. >> Actually, maybe I should check this out and check out these ideas. Um, I see on social media reflected all the time. I remember seeing this tweet a while ago that said something along the lines of all of us are butlers for like 10 people at the top of society. >> Um, >> essentially what all of these Oxfam uh studies have shown for so many years, right? >> We've used this all the time. 12 people own as much wealth as half the world. I mean it's the scale of inequality has reached such an extraordinary and everyone can see it. It's so obvious also because the ruling class are so um they're not like fearful of showing it. I mean take Elon Musk for example, the world's first >> trillionaire, world's richest man and he is displaying that every single day and actively aggravating people online in these spaces on X or or whatever it is. inciting violence in Europe, >> inciting and and and so they they bring together all of the things that are an like annoying people or radicalizing them, inequality, racism, >> all of this stuff. And it's and it's creating this perfect kind of combustible like engine for for for radicalization. And I think this >> this thing in particular I want to hone in on about being a trillionaire. Um, I remember when it was announced, I think technically speaking, he's like dipped back under the the uh the trillionaire mark. Yeah. The threshold. But it's not the point. It's what it represents about the system that we live under today. And I think that's how people people saw it and they're disgusted by his wealth um and the wealth that is hoarded at the top of society more broadly. Um, and we actually produced an article on Marxist.com which I'd really recommend people to look at which bases itself on um this book or this academic this guy called Rowan Hooper. He wrote a book called How to Spend a Trillion Dollars >> during the pandemic. >> During the pandemic so this was a while ago now before you know Elon Musk even acquired this amount this amount of wealth. And I I think this is important because as I was saying earlier, you know, you have this, you know, layer of people who maybe first are interested in communism in a in a slightly superficial way or a memey way and then they're becoming more serious. And we're here to say, yeah, you have to become serious, but also that doesn't mean that we have to become some bizarre fantasists. Actually, we are the most serious people about the planet, about what is what needs to take place in order to solve these problems in society. you know, we are we are fighting for communism, not because it's a it's a utopia, >> but actually we're starting from the real capitalist economy that exists and what it has already produced. >> And what's amazing about this book that we that we uh yeah talk about in this article is that this this academic he basically he bases himself on the real programs or real technology, the resources that are currently in society today. >> Yeah. and tries to map out what could we actually do with that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I remember reading some of the the statistics in this. >> Yeah. >> He he talks in it about how ending extreme poverty through an immediate transfer of cash and assets uh that would cost $400 billion. Mhm. >> Um estimates as well in this study that research, development and distribution of cures and preventative uh measures for things like HIV and malaria, tuberculosis would cost around $150 billion >> and that you could accomplish a full transfer to renewable energy for $1 trillion. And bear in mind that by the end of 2026, it's estimated that global GDP is projected to reach $126 trillion. >> So this means that humanity for the first time in in history really has been able to solve the question of bread >> by what is produced. And that would mean for instance we now have the resources for people to not live at kind of uh you know a a very very basic level but live well to be clothed uh fed housed educated >> that already exists the wealth in society already exists for such a thing to happen >> yeah and I think that young people especially instinctively understand as I say they're not they can't hide that that wealth is there >> yes >> we can see online. >> We can see it. And and I think that this is the point, right? As communists, we know that the material basis for a higher form of society does exist. It already exists within this system. >> And all of the pressure of bourgeoa society and not pressure rather, it's propaganda. >> As you said in the opening, everything we are taught is that this is the best that can can be done or this is human nature. >> Yes. >> You you cannot change this. the system's too big or anything like this, but it's a lie and it is propaganda. And becoming a communist means we recognize scientifically why that's not true. And also we have to consistently expose no we do we just need to expropriate the billionaires and plan um production on the base of need not profit. And that is entirely it's entirely possible. Um and I think that that this is the this is there's this kind of transition moment happening in in consciousness right now. >> 100%. Um but it and we're obviously trying to intervene in that and and >> well this the crisis of capitalism is so deep. It is producing the largest and most radicalized generation >> ever as ever before. >> Yeah. >> And it's so clear when you think about the last 18 years. 18 year olds will be starting at university very soon. >> It's such a concentrated pocket of revolutions of insurrections of mass movements when you look when you zoom out and you look at it on a world scale. >> Yeah. And this anger has been searching for a reference point for so long. >> And there have been so many opportunities uh post 2008 for the working class in fact to come to power. >> Yeah. >> You know from the protests in Ta Square in Egypt to Sagma Square um over the anti-usterity protest in Greece. And I think something that a lot of young people come back to as a question is well given the system is in such crisis and given there's all of this radicalization that you can see you can feel it when you speak to young people. >> Yes. >> Why has all of this pushed the left into crisis? >> Yeah. >> That's a question that I think a lot of people have. They they they don't feel like there's any real expression. >> Yes. for this frustration that's been building in society and this feeling that young people have that their futures are being robbed from them. >> Yeah. It's criminal that we live in a time where there's so much like pessimism basically on the left in particular and and even it seeps into young people. It can seep into a cynicism. Um despite the fact as you say we know and we talk about this a lot there are so many examples in the last 10 years in the last 10-15 years where there have been powerful powerful revolutionary movements >> and yet we have to say the truth which is that the left at the moment it feels like it's in crisis >> and and a lot of people couldn't can't actually point to coherent leftwing movements anymore. Yes. And we've spoken about this previously on the podcast. There is a feeling on the left of well the right are always winning and we are in defeat and we're in retreat. Yes. And we've just got to hold on to something and and hope that things will fix themselves in the future. And for us as communists in this period in 2026, >> I think we have to say that this is a a huge it's a criminal waste basically and but it's not a natural de it's not inevitable rather >> what this comes down to is what the leadership or the so-called leadership of the left has done. >> Yes. for the last 10 years, which is waste opportunities. >> Um, and and and therefore it's been trapped into this mindset now of >> we have to just base ourselves on really shortterm minimal reforms and just hold on to, you know, these small things that are possible. Don't shout about revolution. You know, Trump is in power. There's there's only so far we can take things with the working class. >> Yes. >> Which just mis misreads entirely what the mood in the working class even is. >> Yes. And that's not to say that we are against reforms of any capacity either, right? We are here as communists fighting the hardest for reforms and struggling alongside the working class because in those struggles the working class becomes conscious of the role it can play. It becomes aware that we can win certain victories. And what we're saying is that, you know, I think we're entering into a period where more of those struggles are going to erupt, but we can connect that with the revolutionary struggle. Yes. And we have to say the truth, which is over the last 10 years, unfortunately, the leadership of the left has confined itself to specific things. >> Um, >> the single issues which don't really cut it. >> Yeah. And you're absolutely right that we fight for reforms in housing, education, jobs against state repression, but we don't see these as ends in themselves. Right? Any reform or right that is granted to the working class is partial and incomplete as long as our class enemies are in charge. And this is, I think, a fundamental distinction between reformism and revolutionary politics. >> Yeah. Because reformists believed that you can gradually eliminate all of the ills in society, whether that be war or poverty. And so a revolutionary overthrow or a change fundamental change of the economic system is not at all necessary. And in fact, by doing such a thing and having such a a class outlook, workers are told to basically stay in their lane to fight for what they deem to be achievable, what's realistic, what's possible. >> And very often when it comes to parliamentary politics at least, it is these same lefts that so illusioned in the lesser evil. Yes. >> Say, "Give Andy Burnham." Oh, by the way, we have a new prime minister for any uh international uh people watching. >> Small update. A small update. >> The new prime minister of Britain. >> Not very important. >> No. >> But they will begin to sew illusions in figures like Andy Bernham. >> Yeah. Well, he's got a northern accent. >> Northern accent. Yeah. Regional accent after all. >> And they talk about this kind of this parliamentary road to social reform. In fact, the caliber of leaders even compared to the 70s and 1920s in Britain is so so much lower. People don't talk about socialism anymore. In fact, >> and the funny thing is though these people have dropped talk and language about socialism, they are living completely in a p in in a previous period. Because if we're honest, since the 1970s, there's been a turning point in the world's situation. It has not been uh uh a situation where reforms are granted willy-nilly or anything like this. It's actually a period marked by counter reforms. Yes. And the clawing back of the the gains won by the working class in the post-war period. And just to give one example of this, you have to remember that in the 1940s, it was the Labor Party that spoke about a welfare state to take people from cradle to grave. >> Just last year, Kama was trying to do what? Push through cuts to disability benefits of5 billion pounds. People were saying, "This is my path to an early grave." Right. >> Yes. Yeah. It's it's bizarre that there is such a lack of inspirational leadership >> on the left at this moment in time when people are are so open to being inspired. >> Yes. >> Wanting to be inspired, wanting to be a part of something. We've spoken about this before, the fact that actually it feels like in the last year a lot of people's political feelings and aspirations were being expressed more through musicians >> and kneecap and people like this who are tapping in in a much more genuine authentic way with how people are are feeling and but people are struggling to have that expression on on the left and and I think this is this is criminal because as you say it's completely mismatched with the historical period that we are that we are in. Yes. >> Um and but that's also not for lack of any trying. I mean, we've spoken about this on the podcast before. There's actually been a series of left-wing political leaders and parties over the last 10 years in the West um that have had a moment, have had a certain appeal. Jeremy Corbyn obviously in Britain, Bernie Sanders, um >> Cyprus in Greece, >> Cypress in Greece. you've all of these kind of partial, you know, attempts or reflections at galvanizing people in an anti- capitalist form, right? In in one way or another. Although, you know, all of these different individuals and parties, >> they have their own stories and lessons as to um what went wrong, whether whether they were able to get into power or not. >> But all of them have failed. >> Yeah. And >> that's not because of their personalities. >> No. All of them said that capitalism could be tempered as well. >> Yes. >> And they were saying this before and in some cases after stepping into office >> and the hard reality is that has not been the case. >> And it's it's re really the cheek of these people now to throw their hands up in despair and say well the working class has become racist. Oh they've elected Trump in America. look at the rise of alternative for Deutsland or reform in Britain >> and all we can really do is just hold the line. Um there's no there's no kind of defensive or even offensive battles that the left should be uh fighting right now. >> It's the classic thing of blaming the working class for your own failures when in fact in many of these countries the left have discredited themselves >> boiling down directly to their class outlook and their class politics. the idea that capitalism could be tweaked, that a nicer kind of form of politics would be possible. >> And I think it does show that reformists have a completely different uh perception of the working class to Marxists. >> We they don't view the working class as a revolutionary force to be mobilized to challenge and ultimately overthrow the existing order. >> Yeah. >> They're a mass of ignorant people to be mobilized and represented. Right. and in fact simply to strengthen their hand in negotiations with the bosses. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's the case like whenever these movements surge forward, reformist leaders become frightened by where they might be taken. >> Yeah. >> And I sent you this article about Navara Media did on enough is enough. You go back to the pandemic >> which is a very radicalizing moment for lots of young people, lots of essential workers as well. And bec when when inflation began to bite and the cost of living crisis was spiraling out of control and workers were being blamed of course in the right-wing press >> there was of course a strike wave which was a crack in the ice of kind of let's say the lethargy that had existed in the trade union movement for a very long time and I remember seeing Mikllinch say the working class is back yes >> we refuse to be poor was the speeches he was giving and >> it was this ve like very um unapologetic class language that he spoke in >> um at a time where as you say off the back of the pandemic where the question of work who plays what role in society was becoming much more obvious. We're going out, we're clapping for the NHS, like these essential services, these essential workers. >> And so it all yeah coalesed in this in this figure of at least of Mick Lynch and this campaign >> who then was was articulating, we should say in a very powerful way. >> Um yeah, this class rage that has been building up in Britain. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And a class rage that was was looking beyond just the industrial front. people were wanting wanting some kind of political representation of this >> and so came into being. Enough is enough, >> which you'd be forgiven for not remembering. >> Uh because it was really a flash in the pan. There was a moment where the trade union tops and some parliamentary labor party members I think Zarus Sultana, Richard Bergen, >> maybe a few other kind of trendy left figures, tribunites, this these kind of uh people, >> they they all got together and they said, "We're going to run on a on a a campaign on questions of housing, questions of energy, questions of cost of living, and taxing the rich to pay for it all." >> Yeah. And I remember the initial response was hundreds of thousands of people signing up. >> If you were to go to any big city in the country, you would have uh stadiums in some cases, big community halls filled to the rafters of young people wanting change. >> Yeah. >> And this Navara media piece is a scoop on what went wrong. And it is the same stuff we have seen being repeated with momentum with your party of internal bickering of uh of the jostling for power of the role that prestige plays in all of this and also an unwillingness for there to be any dem democracy within this as a movement for fear that it would run out of their control. >> Yeah, >> that is the state of the British left. >> Yes. And I think when you as you say the article it like it yeah exposes um the worst aspects of of of the left and basically the worst aspects of reformism um and people who are afraid that things are going to get out of their control um because in a in a distorted way they actually view their role as essentially holding things back. it's not going to be conscious in people's minds >> but fundamentally that is the role that they play and so then that whole thing was was squandered and you know I was saying earlier about this you know mood of pessimism that can come about on the left and how that's criminal >> but things like this >> can produce a very honest pessimism I wouldn't blame someone who was just feeling a bit demoralized and thinking oh well I went along to these huge rallies and we were told enough is enough and and then nothing happened. >> Yeah. Well, you could say the same for this year, right? Like uh when we were talking with one of our producers for the show yesterday, Amy, >> she pointed out to us what's happened with Together Reliance. You remember we were we were all out >> huge >> for a half a million strong demonstration in London in March. very woolly liberal politics, but people made of it, love not [clears throat] hate, people made of it what they wanted and there was a a burgeoning class anger there. Yes. >> Against racism and so on. And I remember um a comrade who I think had signed up to their mailing list >> received a message after the protest was finished >> saying something like, "Oh, thank you so much for coming out and supporting us. We're planning another protest in a year's time, but in the meantime, you can buy our merch by going to this web web link. It is a joke. And you even think about it a little bit when uh when you think of the Greens, right? Because I think the last time we were we were talking on a world on fire, there was still something of a green surge taking place, >> but that has been cut across by what? By Andy Burnham of all people. Uh [laughter] what to call him? Let's let's stick with >> Blairite. >> A a Blairite creature that has kind of crawled out of the woodwork uh and and made his way into to number 10 >> to play the role as the Greens seem to be doing at the moment of loyal opposition to that. A man that is committed to militarism, a man that has well just look at the company he keeps, right? Shabbana Mahmood. All of this stuff is such a damning indictment of wasting and squandering a real mood that exists in society. >> And I think this is a mistake that reformists make and that happens on on the left a lot. It's it's basically just looking at whatever is in front of you right now in this moment. Um, and not being able to to think about the general processes that are taking place in society or if one thing fails then that's it. And this is evidence as you say of the uh that the working class actually doesn't want to move or can't move or or anything like this. >> It's just defeatism. >> It is defeatism. And we are I mean we are here as revolutionary optimists, right? But and why are we optimistic? You know, it's funny. We had >> our summer camp um in the summer. [laughter] >> That's not that funny. But what I was going to say is there were some people who came and I'm trying to make a film about the RCV. I don't know if that's going to come out, but they asked me in it and they said, "Oh, you guys um you know, normally leftwing people are kind of miserable or like they're kind of like a bit like der." >> And this woman, she said to me, "You guys seem optimistic." Like she she was really taken by that. M >> um and I was saying yeah that's because one of course we can see all of the horrors that are taking place in the world but we also not just see but consciously aim and base ourselves on the other process which is a whole generation that is fighting and struggling against that. I mean, we launched this podcast literally a year ago in the wake of the Gen Z revolutions that were unfolding across the world at that time. And we found it very hard at the time to keep up. >> Every week we were thinking, "Oh my god, there's another huge mass movement taking place." And and we have to document this because this is the process in society that is not being I mean the ruling class aren't going to they're not going to go out of their way to say hey guys there's all these revolutions happening all over the world >> and this is a good thing. Um it's quite the opposite. So we um are consciously well yeah we're basing ourselves on this on this mood and on this process and trying to explain it because that is inspirational um and and and it's a real living living process. And we saw this actually there's this article right uh what was this from? >> I think the European Democracy Hub. >> Yes. >> Um and they wrote a report. >> Yes. >> That came out a little bit earlier in the year which described um 2025 as the year of Gen Z revolt. >> Yeah. And it details uh in it I think unrest in 70 different countries being led by the youth over questions of nepotism, corruption, injustice, youth and unemployment. And at the end of this article, >> it says if you were to if you were to look back before 2025, you could find all of the indicators that something had to give in society. And looking ahead now to 2026 when it was written, >> yeah, >> none of the the factors that brought people out onto the streets have gone away. They're all persisting problems in society. And what it what it's kind of concluding and drawing uh drawing out is this is a worldwide struggle. Yeah, it's interesting because it doesn't map exactly because it's obviously not all of the same countries, but I remember in 2024 there was a few articles in the FT or whatever about 2024 was like the year of elections. >> Yeah. >> Um where like I think it was maybe not half the world but like a huge percentage of the world was would have the ability to vote, right? Essentially like the the American election in Britain we had an like there was loads of massive elections taking place. So there is something interesting then about the year later [laughter] you know this it's not all going to map on in the exact same format but the the point is as you've just said none of the issues that were bringing people out also onto the streets I mean these were powerful movements they would have been different in different countries but powerful powerful movements um after yeah the fact that you've had a year of maybe an incumbent government or whatever it is and it's not actually solved the inequality the corrupt corruption. These are the driving things especially for young people and students that um it's about the future. >> Yeah. And illusions in certain political figures being burnt through very very quickly. Yes. >> We we began this podcast last year at a time where we said will Kama be the most hated prime minister of all time after getting a landslide victory in 2024. >> Yes. And just just on the summer camp, it reminded me that you were talking about the pace of events last year. >> When we were at the summer camp together, we were kind of glued to our phones following the Indian student movement that was taking place. >> Yeah. >> That was provoked by what I think it was a minister for justice, someone involved in the Supreme Court in India describing youngsters that were unemployed as cockroaches. As such, cockroach party emerged and there was a huge uh struggle that saw I think the education minister resigned. I think one of the only two ministers that have been forced to resign since Modi took power. And I remember seeing a Tik Tok at the time, you often see this in London, come with me to my Canary Wolf job that's like, you know, come come drink matcher with me. the the the [laughter] Gen Z equivalent uh was um come with me to get beat up by the police today on the streets in New Delhi. And it just shows the fearlessness of the youth. Yes. >> And it's not just far away as well. When when we were talking earlier about the reformist >> sometimes it's not just short-term memory, it's the inability to see what is happening in the world. this time uh yeah around this time last year, October last year, there was of course the Italian general strike for Palestine, a political general strike that um was inspired in a very big way by the activism of the youth. There had been loads of strikes and walkouts in in in this in the schools and then the dockers and then the flotilla described all of this stuff before. But what it really showed is the highest expression of solidarity for the Palestinian cause that we've ever that we've seen in in Europe >> at least for a very very long time. >> Yeah. >> And I remember us being on a protest and we were the only ones amplifying this. I know. >> Block everything for Palestine, borrowing the slogan from the French anti-usterity struggle. All of these >> disrupting at the same time. >> Yeah. All of this stuff beginning to coalesce and the the self-star leadership at the Palestine movement didn't want to see it. >> No. >> So there is this process as you say that we do base ourselves on these facts that to be honest when reformists are presented with them they choose to ignore them. >> Yeah. And also this is young people that are leading this, students who are leading this. And we talk a lot, I mean we did an episode last year on on May 68. We talk a lot about how students can often act as a barometer for the mood in society. And it's not a coincidence that historically and today students are at the forefront of these struggles that then kind of erupt not necessarily over the question of what's going on in their university although what's happening in universities we should say is also quite a radicalizing um radicalizing thing especially in Britain huge bankruptcy problems um across universities courses being shut down and there's all of this stuff but also young people and students today are plugged in internationally to the situation as we've seen in Italy, but also I would just say the general state of inequality that capitalism is producing and this made me think we didn't cover it much on the podcast but we should have the huge movement that erupted in Serbia >> um which again was sparked by the students not over a student issue but it was sparked by um a canopy a train station collapsed and killed I think 16 people >> in 2024. >> In 2024, so it was just a while ago now. But then over the course of the next 6 months, what erupted was a huge movement. >> Um probably one of the biggest movements in Serbia's history, we should say. >> And it was sparked by the students. Students had occupations in their universities. They would do blockades in the road. Um and these protests and the protests grew and grew and grew. We should say also because this um this this uh this collapse or at the train station, it was when they did an investigation into what had happened, they found out that um they were able to build it without having an an an inspection permit basically and the people involved were all linked to the government. So it was it was a clear case of corruption, >> criminal negligence, >> criminal negligence and and that just became a lightning round >> and social murder >> and social murder. And it became a lightning rod for anger, deep anger. And over a million people >> over the course of of of months participated in this movement. Yes. >> And and there was a lot of of symp in the working class who were supporting the students who were taking a lead and would do assemblies and all of this kind of stuff. The state responded with um state repression and even that is still ongoing. There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of court cases and things that are taking place. But this was a again a massive phenomenal movement and students were were at the forefront. >> Yeah. Students setting up assemblies and uh I remember speaking to one of our comrades that was participating in the struggle. I think it was this time last year >> and they were talking about the mood and the lack of direction and the lack of a lead being given. >> Yes. And it does draw out an essential point from the Gen Z [clears throat] revolts or the revolutions which is a revolutionary leadership can't really be improvised in the moment >> and in fact many times that the youth move and the bosses can see that the working class is catching wind of it. They will try to co-opt the movement or concede to the movement for a period only then to roll in the tanks in some cases or really ratchet up the repression later on. So there are all of these opportunities that keep on presenting the same problem in in in the same way which is the crisis of political leadership. >> Yeah. And you said you described it you know social murder which I think is so apt. I mean the reason and this movement we should say I mean the the the tragedy it took place in November 2024. In November 2025 like a year later I think over a 100,000 people still were coming out to commemorate the victims. that that anger still exists because it represents how people feel about the state. You are responsible for this. You are the criminals here. >> And when I was reading about this, the main thing that I kept thinking about was Grenfell. >> Yeah. >> Um where 72 people were killed, a a clear example of social murder >> nine years on. >> And it and it produced a lot of anger at the time. But I think if if the if the Grenfell uh tragedy happened today, I think it could provoke a movement as big as we've just seen in Serbia. Yes. >> Because these things become a reflection of all of the anger in society. Um and people are still deeply deeply angry about Grenfell. That hasn't gone away at all. Um but that mood, it exists. It exists in Britain. It exists across the West. And I think this is what we are we're saying when we talk about the failures of reformists or these leaders. It's not because we're interested in just having a go for some kind of point scoring thing. It's because we're saying that there's no need for this this this revolutionary potential, this anger. It's yearning out to be organized in a in an effective way. >> Um and and and that's what we're trying to do. >> Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why we've restarted the podcast. Well, yes. >> To to to [laughter] really track >> That's my long intro. >> Why this is happening >> to to track um the recruitment campaign that we'll be doing from from now until Revolution Festival >> and essentially to to say the message that the way to overcome pessimism is to fight for your future. >> Yeah. >> Many many articles have appeared in the British press this year about a lost generation. >> Yeah. Um there is I think over a million people not in employment, education or training. >> Yeah. >> And I also saw in the latest copy of our paper that there's been a 50% reduction in graduate jobs. >> Yeah. It's like the lowest it's been in a decade. And and when you think about it, when when you if you're 18 now and you're going off to university, what better opportunity do you have to train yourself up in the ideas that can change the world and involve yourself in whatever is happening on your campus, whether that's related to bankruptcy or just the increased militarization of campus. Yes, >> just this summer, uh, the government has struck, the Ministry of Defense has struck another alliance with British universities to basically militarize campus more and they're talking about how universities will be an essential part of the the war machine. >> Something that students vehemently reject. >> Yes, >> we've got to remember that in the last two years, we since the encampments basically there has been severe repression of students on campuses in London. And I I remember reading an article last week that said King's College London is one of the most repressive institutions in Europe because it has it has attacked uh and victimized and harassed students involved in Palestine activism. >> I remember last year reading something about how LSSE staff were describing people that were kafias as uh as terrorists. >> Yeah. And there's been this spy scandal in the last five months of 11 British universities paying a lot of money for Horus, a surveillance company, to surveil their students for themselves. >> Yes. >> And and on top of all of that, deportations as well. Deporting people and suspending people and expelling people. >> These are real battles that we are going to be fighting. Yes. And we're saying to to young people, what better way to spend your three years than fighting back with us. >> Exactly. As as you said, the battles are happening. They have been happening. And the ruling class is very consciously and I should say quite openly going into these battles and thinking about how to do it. And I what you said earlier is so true that the way to overcome pessimism or that feeling in your gut of like horror or anxiety when you see something horrific in the news >> is to fight back and to be a part of it. Because by the way, we should say the billionaires are being very very explicit about what they think needs to happen over the next five years because they will do whatever is necessary to maintain their position to maintain capitalism to maintain the system of inequality. And one of the things that is really angering and and radicalizing young people is also the question of AI and what that is producing from the point of view of climate change. We'll obviously talk about that next week. But >> I saw this incredible um quote or whatever that this guy Chad Jones, who's from Anthropic, which is the AI company that does the Claude programming. He [snorts] said a 33% reduction in the human population is acceptable to make way for AI infrastructure and development. >> Yes, >> these people do not care about humanity. They do not care about any kind of planet >> or the planet. What they care about is profit. And that is why we say that the only way realistically that we can save the planet or save humanity is by abolishing the profit system. That is the problem here. That is what capitalism is based on. And and we have to we have to fight them. It's not going to happen automatically. We have to say to these young people who are angry, who are being radicalized by this process, you need to join us. Yes. and and and then take ownership over that >> 100%. Um I've I've been reading recently about the AI data centers and the droughts and different parts of the the world and the fears of uh AI data centers coming to to London as well. They're planning to to build one on Brick Lane. >> Brick Lane. Yeah. >> Against what the community wants, of course. And have you watched the film Chinatown before? >> No. >> Well, it's it's a fantastic movie. You should definitely watch it. It's one of my favorite movies, but there is a there is a scene in this which really does chime with what's happening at the moment. Um, and it's where the detective meets the villain. And this guy is actually in control of the waterworks in California. There's a drought there at the time. And they're talking about what this man wants. And he says, "How much money do you have?" He says, "It doesn't matter. What do you want? How many meals do you eat every day?" And this guy says, the villain, the capitalist says, I want the future. The future belongs to me. >> And I think it's so clear when you look at the billionaires of today, the Sam Almans and everything, you can see what the future holds for the rest of us, right? They are willing to see the planet burn and uh massive reduction in in h human life to preside over social murder which is embedded in the capitalist system as a whole. And what we're posing is the question of who does the future belong to? Does it belong to this gang of capitalist robbers, billionaires, or does it belong to the ordinary people that produce the wealth in society? And our main crime as communists is to say they depend on us. We do not depend on them. >> Yes. Exactly. And that's why we are building here in Britain and building internationally. I mean over the summer we had the summer camp but we also had you know an incredible world school of communism um of which all of the talks are online and you can check them out. There's some incredible talks on on important questions of today and also historic revolutions and yeah the revolutionary communist international is in this process of of beginning to overcome our isolation. Yes. And and that is what we we're striving to do. And we heard incredible reports from all over the world. I would say particularly from the US. Yeah. >> And our our section in the US, the revolutionary communists of America who have been intervening in the incredible explosive movements above all the movement in Minneapolis earlier this year where you had a mass movement drive ICE off the streets. >> Yes. >> I mean this is phenomenal. And you there were incredible reports about how the working class was organizing the the way that they would set up networks to monitor where ICE agents were going, send out messages so that people could come out and defend certain workplaces. People just, >> you know, meetings of hundreds of workers just coming together, risking their lives. And this is uh this is guys, this is not a a small thing. This is the belly of the beast. Yeah. >> Trump and the fact that they were able to yeah force them out in that way and this is the this is the real mood that is out there and it's it's incredible to hear the work of our section in in in the US and and follow what they're doing. It's yeah, >> they've start they've started their freshes a little bit earlier than us. And I I was reading their report which >> uh I think down in Texas they were asking people are you a communist and they said we only got three responses. Yes, maybe. Or I think I'm more of a socialist [laughter] >> and I sent you that I I sent you beforehand um this infographic that's been put out by like this conservative association thing. >> Yeah, CPAC. >> CPAC has some links to to Charlie Kirk, Trump, this kind of thing. and they have put out something on social media saying communist propaganda has infiltrated college campuses. [laughter] It's just pictures of our comrades. >> Yeah. Smiling. >> It's it's great. In fact, >> great advertising. >> Great advertising. And that's what we want too with% >> with the plans that we've got and uh kind of being hammered into shape at the moment. >> Yeah. >> Our freshers offensive, our campaign to recruit young people at universities is going to be in full swing in no time. >> Yes. So, the comrades in America have already got their red scare pieces. I'm sure the Daily Mail Mail and GB News will be getting in touch with us quite soon. >> Well, they should. They will see us because um you might have already seen, I don't know, but you know, we will have our propaganda, our ideas being put out on campuses everywhere with this slogan, demand the impossible, demand the future, join the communists. Um you shouldn't miss us. >> No, not at all. Not at all. And I thought to end the episode, we could leave the last word to to Leon Trosky who wrote something that I think >> it ties in with what we've been trying to get across about what is possible, what is realistic. >> He said, "Whoever worships the accomplished fact is incapable of preparing for the future." And even though I began the episode by saying we are told in a million different ways that changing the world is impossible, people that say this are not just right-wingers, it is also left-wingers as well. >> And they point to the fact that >> the capitalist economy is owned by billionaires. They point to the the power of the state, which is obviously a fact. Uh the police, all of its violent institutions. They point to the fact that in liberal democracies it's the case that well legislation goes through parliament and they they say all like because this exists as it does now it must exist forever. >> Yes. >> Whenever we make a positive case about the working class coming to power transforming society and democratically running the economy they say that we're utopians. >> Yes. >> But that's just because it isn't happening right now. >> Yes. And I hope what we've got across in this episode is well there are a set of facts that we are basing ourselves on the other side of the process as you were saying. >> Yeah. And those facts are that capitalism is embroiled in its deepest ever crisis. They cannot go back to a period of class peace. But actually class battles are emerging all over the world erupting and and we can prepare for that and we can be a part of that and and that is a fact and consciousness is changing and developing and as we said at the beginning I genuinely believe we are going to find more communists than ever before in schools in universities in communities all up and down the country and and on that basis we are optimistic about the future. I'm positive about the future. Um, and I'm I'm excited to go and meet these people who want to be a part of something, who want to fight, and who actually do want to change the world. >> Yes, absolutely. And uh, as as the as the campaign gets underway, we will be returning to the segment of We're a party, not a podcast. I'm sure that lots of our comrades will be calling in and sending us notes as to how things have been going on on the ground. And of course, if you are interested in what we've said, then please get organized with us. And if you agree with what we've been talking about, then please do get involved. We'll be tracking the progress of our autumn offensive with our we're a party, not just a podcast segment on uh on a world on fire. Next week, we're going to be discussing cl the climate crisis and what we can do as revolutionaries to fight back against it. Please make sure to share the podcast with a friend that needs to hear it. I'm Khaled Malachi. >> I'm Fiona. >> And this has been a world on fire.