The Forgotten Drum Pioneer: Ed B. Straight with Glenn Kotche, Kevin Lepper, and Tim Lautzenheiser

Hello and welcome to the Drum History podcast. I'm your host Bart Vandery and today we have a mega episode. One of my favorites uh is to have multiple people on the show and today we are joined by Glenn Coochie, Tim Lennheiser, and Kevin Leper to talk about the legendary drum teacher Ed B. Straight. Um guys, this is a uh first I'm going to have you guys introduce yourselves and give a little bit of info here in a second. Um, but the the these types of episodes are a little bit outside of my background because this is uh very deep into percussive education and marching and and and things that I didn't grow up doing. So, I will throw it over to Glenn Coochie first because Glenn obviously, you know, most well known for his incredible work with Wilco and has done so many great things on his own. Um, but Glenn has really championed this episode. um as as you guys are all students and grand students and great-grand students of of ed and the straight system. So um Glenn, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit? Tell us kind of what we're going to learn and then we'll throw it to Tim and Kevin so they can talk about themselves briefly and then we'll get into the the meat of the episode. >> Okay. Um well, I'm uh Chicago bass drummer. I've been in rock band Wilco for 25 years. Do a lot of other things. venture in classical and have a history from marching in drum and bugle corps and I studied uh luckily with Kevin Leper when I was in high school. He prepared me for all my college auditions. I ended up studying with Jim Campbell at University of Kentucky and uh I was well aware back in high school and influenced by uh the teachings and writings of uh Tim Lzenheiser as well. Um, when I was in high school, I worked out of the the Straight System books, and I'll get more into that in a second. But, um, but that's what kind of leads us to this episode and me wanting to shine a brighter light on this um, >> kind of legendary, really pivotal figure who's largely been forgotten. >> Um, and that's be, you know, I only know of him through these two men. So, >> yeah. Unsung hero. Absolutely. Which I love to highlight on this show. Um Tim, Kevin, whoever wants to go next, why don't you guys tell us about um you know, a little bit about yourselves. Okay, >> Kevin, I think you're up. >> Yeah, I'm I'm a uh educator and performer in the Chicago area. Uh and um basically got introduced to the straight system through Tim in college and u it basically has just changed my outlook on on how I look at at drumming. Um, and so that's why we wanted to do this episode. So, um, I spent, uh, a little over 18 years teaching at Vanderook College of Music in Chicago, and that allowed me to pass some of this knowledge on to future music educators. But the real key is Tim because he's got all the connections along the way. So, Tim, why don't you take it? >> Thanks, Kevin. Well, I was fortunate enough to have Kevin as a student at the University of Missouri and um when I was teaching there and the connection for me with Ed Strait was through Ed Metsinger and uh Mets Mr. Metser was the uh timist for Chicago symphony for 34 years and he studied with Ed Straight and in fact as I talked to Kevin the other day uh in many ways part of the writing of Ed Straight was in collaboration with Mr. with Mr. Metsinger. So that's how this all ties up and aligns itself. >> Awesome. And um yeah, I just want to say so I first got the idea of this when I was listening to your episode. I'm a fan of your show obviously and your episode with Domo and he was kind of connecting the dots with uh George Lawrence Stone, Billy Gladstone and Samford Mohler and that's when I was listening to this and it's so fascinating. I'm a I'm a history buff when it comes to percussion and I just thought, "Oh my gosh, how come uh you know, straight we got to do an episode on him?" Because he's not only a contemporary of them, he predates those guys. He was born in 18 1871. Um, so a good, you know, 10 years before most of those guys. And he just came at such a a pivotal time of percussion, coming out of the Civil War drumming style, um, and transitioning into vaudeville and theater and circus band drumming and orchestral drumming and the the dawn of the age of the drum set. Um, and I'll get more into that later. But, um, he was also, you know, one of the first published, uh, percussion authors ever. His first book was 1917, I think. >> The American drummer was first was 1908. >> Oh, 1908. Okay. So, that's around the same time as some of, you know, like the Bower the Bower system and um, >> this a few other books here. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And you touched you touched there's I just want to mention before you move on that the the time frame of of of Ed's uh career is just it's it's the absolute most pivotal time in the history of drums going from you said Civil War drumming through vaudeville through drum set. I mean and then first books being written. >> Yeah. >> It's the most it it just lined up perfectly with the time that he was he was active. >> Exactly. and he was he was just a little bit ahead of in a contemporary in Chicago with Roy Knap, a very influential uh percussion teacher who's in the PAS Hall of Fame. Uh Knap's students are in the Hall of Fame. Um some of uh actually some of Straits are too. Jean Krup uh was studied with with Ed Strait. Um but but that whole kind of Chicago lineage when that was all happening around um Frank's drum shop and I can get into that as well in a minute too. But just kind of being uh at the forefront and uh the center of the scene in the elder statesman and also founding Nard was one of the founding members of of Nard and coming up with the original you know rudiments. So he was just such an important figure I feel like uh and his his system was so far ahead of the time. um you know he he basically taught a system of sticking even though he came from drummer and bugle core and and civil war drumming rudimental drumming he developed a completely contrary system of drumming that was more based for indoor drumming and orchestral drumming um that moved away from rudimental even though he still embraced rudimental too he had this whole system of drumming that's basically when I marched cavaliers in the 80s that's what we used okay so there was that some transition everything was right-hand lead by then. It was basically that same sticking style more than let's say the rudimental drumming and druming bugle core from Frank Arsenal style in the 50s and 60s. So, you know, he was just such an innovator um that I just I just wanted I want him to get his due. It is not uncommon where there are and I've had other episodes with certain, you know, teachers and percussionists and drummers where they um not every not every educator can be, you know, remembered by everyone, but I think what you're doing, what we're doing right now is a great way to do that. And Dom's episode really struck a chord with me and drove home to me the he called it I believe in that episode the the the drum teacher the drum instructor family tree where you can see how it branches off with guys like >> the lineage. It's it's absolutely fantastic. So um so while we're on the who was Edby Straight Kevin Tim do you think Glenn covered everything there? Is there anything you want to add about who this man was? Um because I think that covered it great. But any any other info just about straight as a as a person and his background? >> Well, um I I just looked back at the old news articles and even though he was this great teacher and this innovator of of the drum method, he was a great performer. I mean, those news articles were like Fast Eddie and it was like this guy, oh, you have to go see this concert. It's going to have this legendary drummer on it. And so, you forget how good a performer he was. that that happens where you think of them just as teachers. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I think he had his fingers in all aspects of the the drum burgeoning industry at that point because I mean, here's a guy who, like we said, he taught Jean Krup, but he also played in John Phillips Soua's band. Like that's, you know, two two totally different eras of history of music and of drumming, and he's connecting that. So, a little background before we get into his uh his system, and I've actually been in touch with his granddaughter. Um, we were speaking last night. Uh, actually his great great grandson got engaged last night, I just found out. But, uh, he she was helpful sending a lot of photos. They're in California. Um, but he he was, you know, born in 197 or 1871, like I said, but he um also was worked at a place in Chicago called the Dixie Music House, which was co-owned by uh George G. Yeah. >> Um and that was in 1900. Okay. Uh he managed the drone department. And then um Frank G, who is his uh George G, the co the owner's coowner's little brother, worked for Ed Strait at the Dixie Music House. And in that same building, uh the Lewig brothers had a space on a different floor to manufacture their brand new bass drum pedal. >> Wow. Which was >> I knew that name sounded familiar. Frank, there's a >> there's a lot of history here in Chicago with that because, you know, William F. Lewig Senior was at uh the Auditorium Theater, the Pit Band Drummer, developed this bass drum pedal, a modern bassrum pedal. Um, not like the I have an archaic overhanging one that predates that there, but he developed that and that basically is credited with the birth of the drum set. So, that's happening in the same building and and Frank G, who was working for him when Dixie Music House burnt down. Um, I want to say it was gosh 37 they opened Frank's drum shop and that's Frank G's drum shop where and you know Dixie Music House uh Frank's drum shop is where also Roy Knap taught before he opened up his school of music of percussion where my dad took accordion lessons in the uh in the 40s by the way there and that's where Jean Krupa studied with Roy Knap and Louis Bellson Hal Blaine uh all these amazing players um baby dads. They all studied through through that. Um so these are like the forefathers of drum set. But um um that's kind of you know he he was doing that and teaching all along but he also played um you know theater bands vaudeville and um later on it's funny in this book which you talked about this is all the writings from George Lawrence Stone um uh techniques of percussion he talks about Ed straight in there and gives some some quotes some anecdotes about his vaudeville theater drumming too but he he was also known you know as a circus drummer um being able to do a a 10-minute press roll to to get the crowd going and you know and so he did it all from from rudimental in the summer to theater bands in vaudeville and circus drumming in the winter. Um so like like Kevin said, master educator, also a master performer, uh kind of a a you know forefather of the drum set of of modern drumming period and also the elder statesman to this entire generation that basically defined drumming. Hm. >> Modern drumming. >> And I always like to kind of put a, you know, a little more person like a little bit more behind the person. So if he was born in, what did you say, Glenn? Like 187. >> 1871. >> So he would have been like in his mid30s when he was releasing this book. Am I >> the first one? Yeah. >> First one. Okay. So it kind of just paints a picture of, you know, cuz sometimes you think everyone in the 1800s was, you know, 50, 60 years old because it's just how, you know, it's portrayed. But like, um, it's interesting. So he's a young guy and he's he's really, uh, paving a way for himself and the new burgeoning drum industry. So Tim, can you explain a little bit about like the straight system and what that is and explain, you know, how it works and maybe why it's not seen as much as it used to be. >> Yeah. I think we all mostly grew up on rudiments and yeah, whatever you did with the right hand, you would then replicate with the left hand. And uh the the right hand lead system uh was basically um the down beats were the right hand. The left uh hand did the upbeats or the um the after beats in a sense. Now here again we all work crazy to try to get that left hand to mirror the right hand. But for most of us the right hand is stronger and it feels right pulsation wise. Uh, so when the system came out, um, even when I met Mr. Mansinger for the first time, I'm like, "What? Don't you want to hear my lefthand flamicue?" I've really worked on my left hand flamicue. And he he was such a gracious human being. And he's always like, "When would you use that, Tim?" I'm like, "I don't know." And he go, "If it sounds better the other way, why wouldn't you play it the way it sounds best?" I'm like, "Uh, was my teacher told me the other way." So, he really shifted an entire almost religious system about the way you play drums. And uh I'm sure both Glenn and Kevin would say this. We spent hours working on that left hand and it still never sounded as good as the right hand. >> Yeah. >> So, I think that was the the basic and the reason it didn't gain the popularity was probably because of marketing and advertisement more than anything else. Would you guys agree with that? >> Yeah, I do. and and also it was going up against the rudimental system. Yeah. >> So you had you had this one person pushing their system Edward B. Straight and then you had the whole organization of Nard pushing the rudimental system. So by the time uh I came around to uh to study with Tim in the 70s straight system was a bad word. I mean e even to this day you can't put straight system in publications you have to put right-hand lead >> it's the same thing but that connotation of straight system is bad it only teaches the right hand and I think a lot of that was because of the teachers didn't understand it >> right >> so when when I look at Haskell Har's uh 1961 percussion method for uh Vanderook College of Music he talks about the straight system and he says, "You know, on a solo ensemble contest, they're going to ask you to check off is this rudimental >> or is this straight system?" And the teachers have to know. >> Yeah, >> showing a sorry to interrupt that my uh judging sheet from eighth grade solo contest and right there it says rudimental system or straight system and you could check the box. So that's the first I ever heard of them, but go ahead. the the teachers did not understand what the straight system was because we had all grown up with Haskell hard. Everybody played rudimental drumming out of the Haskell hard book. And so I would go in to judge a a solo ensemble contest and the people would say, "Uh, don't worry about any of those sticking things. Just judge them on what they played." That's how crazy it was. And now they don't even offer that choice anymore. >> Yeah. >> H interesting. I mean, when I grew up taking lessons, it was it was always, "Hey, we're learning right-hand lead." And this was in this would have been the '9s, and it's like the word straight system never came up, but my teacher then, Elmer Monk, was like, "We're doing right-hand lead." And it's it's just like, "Okay." And that's always just so I guess I've been doing it my whole life and not even really not even realized it. But and also I find it very interesting because you're talking about marketing. You're talking about pushing who who's better. And it was just I mean obviously they want students to learn but it's a business so going up against you know ND and and who's going to be the better one and who's going to win they had more resources behind them. >> It's it's it's business I guess at that point. It's trying to make you know you want kids to learn but it's trying to make money and and create more students and it's the music industry back then at work. But I don't think he could have thought about it that way as these two um competing things because he did found Nard. He was at that original BFW meeting in Chicago where they got together and um and they played into the night and they started Nard. So he obviously embraced that as well. But I think he realized that had its place just like Moler Stroke and everything. But when you move inside, >> you need to be a lot more sensitive musician. And he says in all of his, which we'll get into, but every every page in his book has an entire page of text that talks about being a good musician, technical and just mental and philosophical ways to be a good musician. And he, you know, often equates the drums with violin players or horn players. And so he's thinking in terms of such musicality that I feel like he he embraced the whole rudimental um and and large stroke system that was, you know, prevalent at that time. But that that works outside and inside when you're playing music with musicians, you have to be a much more expressive, sensitive player. And I think that's why he developed this this system of drumming to um you know so people could learn how to play in that style as well not instead of. But >> yeah Glenn it wasn't either or it was and >> okay >> if that makes sense. No he in fact uh even Mr. Messinger uh would talk about you know this is just another way to look at it and then and then would come musically which makes more sense. >> Mhm. >> And inside it was always working. It was always >> you know and a key thing about his system is he he brought he he made very few rules so it was easy to follow. So the sticking was always going to be the same. You never had to think about that once you got it under your hands. Um, you always had to count out loud. The flams were always going to be played right-handed. The rolls were always going to start and end with the right hand. >> It It was so concise so that a student could pick it up and and use this one tool and and probably play 80% of what they had to play in their life. I mean, if if I look at concert band today, if I knew nothing more than the straight system, I'd be just fine. >> Well, can I ask a very likely dumb question, but um how does this work growing up doing right-hand lead? I mean, I'm right-handed. How does does this flip if you're left-handed and that's your your dominant hand? I mean, are you like Again, that's probably a stupid question, but this is a right-hand lead system. How does that work with having a different dominant hand? Okay, I'll jump in. You can approach it from different ways. What Tim did when we were in college, we played the whole lesson file book right-handed, and then we had to go back and play the whole lesson file book left-handed. >> So, >> Oh, thank God you never did that with me, Kevin. >> Yeah, that sounds hard. It's like, >> why didn't you do that with me? No, >> would have been So, and and I'm sure I'm sure Strait would say, uh, if you're a left-handed person and you're, uh, in a drum and bugle core, you're just going to have to play everything with their sticking. Got it. >> You just have to adapt. So, um, I I I wouldn't see that that you would say, okay, you have to do every you have to be a left-handed drummer. I'd say you have to adapt because left-handed drummers have to have to adapt. Yeah. >> Yep. That's like I think Ringo's left-handed and he's played right-handed his whole his whole life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think that was the idea is so many, you know, people were more people were right-handed that he felt like, okay, majority kind of rules were going this way. But >> yeah. >> Yeah. I'm I'm just so proud of Kevin and he can remember all that stuff. That's why he's my favorite student. >> I remember the pain. And that's what I remember. >> That's funny. >> This week's episode is brought to you by Claw. How many times have you looked down midset and realized your bass drum slid forward 6 in? It's frustrating, right? That's why there's Claw, the small but mighty kick drum anchor that keeps your bass drum exactly where it should be. Here's how it works. Claw's backward-facing spikes dig into your drum rug every time you kick, locking your drum solidly into place. No Velcro, no special rug, no hassle. It's tiny, about the size of a deck of cards, so it fits right in your gig bag or stick bag. Setup takes just seconds. You just slip it right in front of your bass drum, then grip it and rip it. It's made from durable, shockproof ABS plastic. Claw can take a beating without budging, no matter how hard or fast you play. And thanks to its premium TPU top layer, it'll never leave a mark on your drum. Claw is simple, tough, and totally invisible once it's set up. But you'll know it's there every time you kick your drum and it stays perfectly locked in. Head to clawdrum.com. That's klawwrum.com where you can purchase it for only $29 on Amazon. And if you use promo code kaw15 off, that's claw15 off. You get an additional 15% off when you're checking out on Amazon. Get the claw and never chase your bass drum again. >> I'm going down my list of questions here. Glenn, why don't we throw this one to you because I feel like you're, you know, very active. You're very, you are working, rocking, you know, you're doing it right now. You're a working drummer as we speak. Um, how and why is it resurfacing today in your experience? Are you seeing more of this um now than maybe 20 years ago? >> Well, I mean, I'm kind of out of the, you know, I'm not really a a pedagogue anymore, so I'm not teaching a lot um, you know, like I used to. I just don't have the time. I love it. You know, I always inevitably learn more at each lesson than I teach, I think. Um, when it does happen, which is the beauty of teaching. Um, but, uh, so I'm not exactly sure how it's being incorporated, you know, in in in universities, um, or conservatories, but I do know that, um, you know, it's something I've always used, you know, just getting around the kit. Of course you use both hands and independence and flexibility ambidexterity ambidexterity but um but for me a lot of the lessons came out through the musicality um you know he how he crescendoed his roles how he would dynamics were such an important part of this book um these books and you know that's those lessons uh nuances of roles of flams putting them in there for color and uh and music musical reasons not for you know technical reasons. s that comes across and that's what I apply to drum set. Um it definitely uh and Kevin can get into this later too. The way that he made me work through the book reading, site reading, taking things in boxes, reading them backwards, reading diagonally. I mean that made me a much better site reader. Um thankfully I don't have to do a lot of that anymore. Um but it really came in handy when I did. Um, but I'd have to say the thing, the most impact I've seen in my playing at least is also, you know, like I said, he's got the text on every single page. He's got a page of text and what it talks about is is how to be a good musician. Some he he mixes it all up, which I think is super effective. So, he'll talk about like start rolls with the right hand, end with the right hand, make sure you have fresh sandpaper on your blocks, uh, don't rely on the other guy to count. Uh, make sure you're you're counting out loud. He's he's mixing in technical lessons, right? Play all your flams right-handed, start rolls, right? And then he'll say, "Don't rely on the other guy. Make sure your gear works." You know, like the sandpaper. He's saying, uh, you know, don't let it go soft so it still works for sandpaper blocks. Invest in good traps. Don't use, you know, there's funny things like don't use a a a boat whistle in place of a train whistle or something like, you know, like like, you know, be a a consmate professional, which is, you know, when when I give clinics and, you know, I was just at PAC giving a clinic and I saw a lot of clinics and a lot of us have the same message. 90% of being a professional is showing up on time, having a good attitude, being prepared, make sure your gear sounds good, >> you know, have an open mind, and be be a positive uh force. And that's what is so cool is that on every page, he mixes those kind of life musician lessons in with the technical. So, it's not just like, okay, all about technique. And, oh, by the way, you should know this stuff, too. When you mix them together on every single page, it becomes ingrained that these aren't separate things. Part of being a good musician is the technical, but it's all the other stuff that goes with it that really make you uh someone that is going to work, someone that people are going to want to hire, they're going to want to play next to, they're going to want to ride on a bus with for a month, you know, all those important things or hang out in a studio for 3 weeks. So, um I that's what I really took away from a lot of this as well. >> Yeah. And everything you said, everything you said today still applies. Like Absolutely. >> I mean, all of those lessons that are written however long ago, it's like it that's just be a be a good person, be a good hang, take care of your gear. >> Exactly. >> That applies that that applies to life. Like that's just every single aspect of your life. So I think it's important because if usually people are studying this and working, their brain is in a you know spongy kind of zone. So they can they can take things in and and if I like your how you're saying that Glenn about how if you >> mix it with you know instructions with life lessons with gear talk >> it's a good way to uh to to digest information. >> He was drilling this in 100 years 120 years ago you know it's like yeah >> yeah the books are are timeless both from a a musical standpoint and from a philosophical standpoint. Uh but to get to your question about uh how is it resurfacing? It's still a struggle to be really honest. There are certain states that you can't put in a publication right-hand lead. You it's just the book will not sell in that state if you put right-hand lead. So when Tim and I are are publishing things, we either have to well, we basically have to leave it out for certain uh publishers. And if you put it in, you really have to fight for it. So uh I did had done this one publication for FJH and I put put right-hand lead and then underneath they put a rudimental sticking. So I had to put both stickings so that so that it would sell. And I mean it was a struggle to get it in there. >> And still again still to this day people need this. You'll go into a band room and you'll ask a student to play a rhythm. And first of all they they won't know how to count the rhythm and then they'll play the rhythm three or four different stickings and you just want to say why don't you just teach a straight system. Why? because then this rhythm would be correct every time and you could move on to the next project. But yeah, it's it's still struggling. That's for sure. >> In uh in essential elements, uh the whole book is written right-hand lead. But you know, before they uh made the plates and started the printing, they said in parenthesis, let's adapt this so that it can go either way. And it was a marketing thing. It really had nothing to do with music. Kevin's right. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Interesting. Almost sounds like it's like uh it's like political or something. You know what I mean? Where they want to just >> please everyone and um Okay. Looking at the list of uh amazing notes here. So I I see one jumping down a little bit. Convergence of influences, classical, military, world folk, ragtime, jazz, double drumming. Um Kevin, when you wrote this this great little uh you know one sheet here um double drumming snare drum with bass drum what and you have high hat low boy. What were you referring to when you're talking about a convergence of influences um in this regard? >> We had we had uh touched on that a little bit before is at this time period you had you had all these different influences going on. You had the Colombia exhibition in Chicago. You had the advent of the bass drum pedal, the low boy was being introduced, you know, so you had rag time. So you had uh a lot of influences from New Orleans, you had uh European influences. So this was a great time to be alive except for World War I, you know, other than that this was a great time because you had this mix of cultures and that's what what Strait was dealing with, especially in his syncupation book >> because he he he wrote that book. So these are the dances of the day and we don't know these dances anymore like one step and and oriental dances, but yeah, there you go. There you go. So, so he wrote this book to to adapt all these different styles that were going on and and it really influenced drum set because what I found interesting was he said there are four ways to play your bass drum. One, you can play on beats one and two and that'll give you the traditional military approach. Two, you can put the accents. You can play the bass drum on the accents. That gives you a jazz approach or a uh yeah, jazz approach. And then you can put four on the floor and that gives you a whole another feeling. So you could go through the whole book. So I was thinking Tim the uh volume two of the chapen book where you can take that sheet and turn it over and play the two lines. >> It's exactly what Strait was doing here. He was saying you can play this three different ways and get three completely different sounds. So, >> yeah, go ahead, Clint. >> Oh, I was going to say if I can interject in that book like I was just looking earlier um in you know lesson 38 he's talking about um you know they called them like the oriental beats at that time >> and using using uh tomtoms and playing it on tomtoms using one hand on tomtom or moving all the accents to symbols. He's got syncopated bass drum notes in here. Um he talks about laying a piece of paper on the snare drum >> to get the effect and playing playing the snare drum with timony mallets which you know back in the day would have been like this to emulate all these old Chinese tomtoms had a wire that would go through them and get a buzzing effect. So he's, you know, this is a lot of people um kind of credit the first drum set books being well right before Krupas there was Dixie Land drumming by Ray Bodock in 1937, but this is 1922. Yeah. >> Drum set playing. It's not It doesn't have drum set beats cuz they didn't exist yet. You know what I mean? There were there was no such thing. It was still like when the bass drum came in, it was keeping time like you were tapping your foot or like you were marching on the field and you were adding the symbol for accents and effects. You used all the traps to help, you know, to back up the comedians and jugglers and dancers and everything in the vaudeville era and comedians. Um, but this I mean there's, you know, an argument definitely could be made that that his uh modern syncopated rhythms for drums like was the first drum set book by you know a good 15 years. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I I want to back up and just not go over this. Um his philosophical approach was number one. His musical approach probably was number two. And I remember Mr. Messinger many of the lessons we never picked up the drumsticks. We never picked up the temp mallets. It was about your personhood being the foundation for everything you did. Is that fair, Kevin? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Without being a good person, it didn't make any difference how well you could play, >> right? >> Give examples. Yeah. >> In in one of his dos and don'ts page, he says, "Don't talk about your brother drummer." >> Boy, I have used that. >> Wow. >> A lot. That is great. >> Yep. Well, when he he was when he was um playing in the Chicago Saul Goodman was playing in the New York uh uh orchestra and Saul Goodman. Everything was alternated >> and there was always this rattle going on uh from that side and Mr. Messinger just never would was always like he's a fine musician, he's this but there was never never in that a negative comment come out of that man's mouth about somebody just didn't exist. Sounds like a good guy. He's just a good >> He was great. >> A good person. >> You know, it's interesting, Bart, not to go off on a tangent here, but it's interesting. We adored him. We, his students, worshiped him in the very sense that we were safe. He was a sanctuary. He was always there to help. And if something did go to ry arry, he wouldn't come down on you. Just put his arm around you, go, "Well, let's think about this now." three positions. How would you think about this, Tim? And so forth. And you walk out going, I don't need therapy anymore. I'm not Mr. Messinger. >> That's fascinating to hear because that's how Kevin was with me and Kevin obviously got that from you. Um, so it's just so cool that that was kind of handed down through the generations >> and I'm sure Messenger got that from Straight. >> He did. And and he was uh, you know, he played the the the silent movies. That's how he got started. Uh, and the story goes that his wife finally said, "The talk the talking movies are coming in. You're not going to have a job very much longer." And that's when he started in the youth symphony in Chicago. And then they found out what a phenomenal musician he was. And he never got out out of behind the pots from then on until he retired. Just incredible human being. I mean, you hear of other teachers who are infamously mean or like like uh nasty or and I'm I'm failing to remember who it was, which it was in England and it was a teacher who would like have the kid practice for 2 hours and then the kid would look out the window and and the teacher was he was I forgot I'm going to look up who it was, but he's like, "Oh, he was out, you know, I'm outside the door listening." and the guy looked outside the window and he was outside like working on his car and the kid had been practicing for two hours and it's just like or you record him and have just and scream at him over what what was on the recording. This is the opposite. This is the opposite. This is a nurturing nice person which um >> is how you should live your life. >> And can can I ask Tim a more uh kind of more nuts and bolts question about this? So, the the original books and I want to say I actually referenced um a there's a a dissertation by um John Martin Frederick uh from Texas Tech from 2023 and he talks about the publications. Now, as far as I can tell, there were maybe seven straight books in total. Um, uh, the American drummer, American school of double drumming, modern syncopated rhythms for drums, uh, modern system of drumming, uh, the folio, the lesson folio, um, a natural way to play, uh, the drum core method, and then he had, uh, a deluxe drum solos for contest and competitions, a book of of solos. Now, these were some of these books. I only have the four. I have the 68. Oh, the 68 time one, too. So, I have the the 68, the modern syncupation, the straight, you know, the the straight system, which is the kind of >> the lesson, >> the main book in my the lesson file is the Bible. Yeah. Um, those were published by Frank's >> drum shop. >> Mhm. >> Originally, and then when were they reissued? Because the copies I have are pretty pretty old and tattered, but these are obviously reproductions, I'm guessing. When were those in production? And did Messinger have the original copies? Because these are long out of print, right? >> I mean, you can't buy them unless they're you find them someplace now. You know, I got mine online. Yeah. Um, so did you work out of these books? Were they published? Did Did Metsinger have all of his students work through this method? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. You that was your scale book. that was whatever you never and we would always come back even when I went back to Ball State to work on my doctorate and Messinger came out of retirement to be my teacher again which is Mr. was messing her a thousand times over and I could have studied with a lot of people and I I called it you know was this oh sure Tim yeah but we got to go to Arby's when we're done and I'm like okay and we can't do it unless I pay and sure miss um we went back to book one and started bottom up again and you know after you do something you go back listen to Beethoven the second time like oh my god I didn't get that the first time but but you're right Glenn it always came back to the first book the orange when they quit publishing it, I think was probably the mid70s. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> So, there are probably still copies out there along, but it's definitely due for it's due for a new engraving and a and a re, you know, a reissue for sure. Yeah, this should be out there. Yeah. And when when did the whole system like, you know, when when Kevin taught me, he had where you could tell like, oh, this line is implied one kind of like a soul field. This one is T for two. This one is like a show uh beat. This one's uh like a horse gallop. This one's a march. You know, when did the kind of modern approach that that I learned from Kevin where you do you know not only read across but diagonal or in a box or backwards and you know take kind of taking this system and and I don't know applying it in that way. Was that from Metsinger? Did straight do that? Is that something you um came up with or or where where did that kind of approach to teaching it come from? >> Well, Mets was really big on site reading. That was a a big thing for him because he said, you know, that's where the money is. If you're going to play, you got to be able to sight read down. Um so that that started with he was the authorship of this jumping around all over the place. And then as Kevin said, this second book Jim Chap did, which is you'd never get it all. You couldn't play it all in your lifetime, I don't think. Right, Kevin? If we >> Oh, pages. >> Yeah. >> Uh was the independence factor where you learn to read two and three measures ahead all the time. >> Okay. >> Stub your toe. >> When you when you read the straight system, he says you have to be at least one measure ahead, if not more. >> So, he he pushed that whole philosophy there. Hey Glenn, I thought it was very interesting that that dissertation was done by a Texas Tech person because Allan Shin was in college with me, studied with Tim. He was the uh head of percussion at Texas Tech. >> So the connection would be Tim to Allan Shin to his student and now we've got the dissertation. >> Yeah. >> And it looks like Yeah. Lisa Rogers was his committee DMA, the head of his committee. Um, yeah, but that that kind of goes through his dissertation is just a kind of an overview of all of the different publications and what rudiments they they include or what uh you know, concepts and ideas. It's it's a pretty cool read actually. It's available online. Well, you know, the one thing that we haven't jumped into that was really uh big for him was uh the rudiment, the flam. And and I think this is one of those points that got sort of dicey when people were trying to understand it because we always think of it's a right-handed flam, meaning the primary note is with the right hand. >> And he actually says you flam the left hand. Yeah. >> See, you're you're adding the little grace note in. So, you flam the left hand, which when you look at that and rudimental drumming, that gets a little bit dicey. Uh, the other thing that he Well, and he said you do right-handed flams until they feel comfortable, but really the best way to play flams is handto hand. So, there's that. We go back to the military style again. He was not adverse to it, but he said, "Hey, when we're starting out, let's just play all the the uh flams the same way." And then the other thing that that sort of rubbed people the wrong way probably was the way he talked about rolls is he counted every time you changed hands. So what we would call a fivestroke roll, right, right, left, left, right, he would call a three-stroke roll. And and that that again gets a little bit confusing for people is you have to understand that. So >> well again that's because he's he's playing inside. He's doing a press roll. So it's really not five strokes. It's that's only if you're playing open double double strokes. So um I mean that's why he did it. And and when he teaches this stuff Bart it's really cool cuz he'll break it down you know hand to hand first and then he'll do the roll. So you're playing and then buzzing it you know. So, it's it's a very natural progression showing you this is why it's a three-stroke roll. You just played three strokes, now you're playing three strokes again. You're just altering your folk. >> Got it. >> And and then the other cool thing he does, he adds the drag into that. >> So, it's like you don't change your hands at all. All you're going to do for this left hand drag is just let it bounce twice. So, your hands are staying exactly the same. You're either buzzing it or you're hitting a regular stroke or you're letting it drag. Very cool approach. We Yeah. >> Which I wanted to ask, did he ever um talk about I guess Tim through your lessons with with Messinger about stroke types because that's such a big part of, you know, like uh the Gladstone finger control, the moler uh kind of whip stroke, which was Chapens thing as well. Um you know, he talks a lot about getting a clean sound and a clean stroke, but did he ever talk about, you know, playing lower or higher wrists, arms, anything like that? Because you know back in the Frank Arsenal and when I first learned it was it was the full arm motion. So I I wondered if that cuz I didn't I don't recall a lot of that being in the books. >> It was it was not he was absolut I was going to say oppose that sounds wrong. Anything that looked like choreography instead of good music making you always went to good music making. Uh so even and this is one of the things like on Tony particularly why are you crossing because in most of the books it was left right left right left there you if you had a left hand free that's where you started he goes why are we you jumping clear over to that top jump with your left hand you're taking a chance on missing that's the first thing plus what's that got to do with making music when your right hand's right there >> right >> and you go like god he's But we'd grown up. It was almost like commandments >> rudiments and you do it because that's what you're supposed to do when you have a free left hand or whatever. >> Uh he was really all the raw and highlighting and you know triple symbols at the end and all that. He almost needed to make fun of it. He just like rolled his eyes. Which is interesting because Krooa, you know, definitely had the showy aspect in certain parts of his playing. Early on in his career, I think that, you know, as he as he matured as a musician, there was a lot less of that, >> but, you know, he was he studied with straight. So, that's that's interesting. >> He also had the movie star. I mean, you know, he knew how to a film, you know, kind of like, >> but you know, it even talks about the I mean, you know, Stone even talks about it in this book about how seeing him play, uh, you know, later in Boston, how he was much more musical and it wasn't about the theatrics at all and he, you know, he also changed his musician and, you know, was a lifelong student as well. But, um, >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> Let let me know when you want to hear a funny story about Mets. >> Okay. Go for it. Yeah. He was he was a very humble man. Very humble. Uh arguably the best tempist that had ever walked the earth, you know, but none of that present moment. So, um Kevin's heard this story so many times. He can tell better than I did. It's the Rock Manov story, Kevin. >> Yeah, I know. I know where you're going. Rob Rock Rob Manovv um they were playing the third piano conerto and Van Klyurn who had just won the uh Russian award or whatever it is was playing it with the Chicago Symphony and Van Klyber's favorite person was Van Klyber. Uh and so they had they they went through the rehearsal and everything and then uh Mr. Messinger said everybody was falling all over themselves to get to Van Clyber and to tell me and he Mr. That's just not Mr. Messinger's style. He was like we eat a hamburger one bite at a time everybody you know. So anyway he said that after everybody had you know going nuts over Van Klyber. Van Klyber kept looking up where Mr. Mezinger was like aren't you going to come down and kiss the ring and Mr. Mexico he's putting his mouth away and everything. He said, "Pretty soon Van Klyber is like well." So he goes up to see Mr. Mr. Mets are going to like to introduce myself. Matt goes, "Yeah, I know who you are. This is this is hysterical." And he said, "Uh, listen." He said, "I I know you're probably one of the four most timidity players in the world, Tim the world." And he said, "I just what an honor it was to play with you." And Mets goes, "Oh, great. Thank you." You know, let's go. Wow. Let's go get something. And then he said finally, he could just see Dan Klyber getting pushing hard and hard and he finally said, "Mr. Metinger, I just need to ask you something. Have you ever heard anybody play the Rock Manov three better than I just did?" Mets goes, "Yeah." He said, "You did?" Well, who was it? He said, "It was Rock Manov." Right after he wrote it, he premiered it with us. He goes, "It was perfect. And then he turned around and left. >> Oh, then he left and went to Ar. >> He went to Aral. Yeah, that'll help. >> Isn't that remarkable? >> That's incredible. >> We're all together >> fishing for compliments and being like, "Yep, that's amazing." >> And that was him. >> Well, that's that's drummers in general. >> Change your tire. He was just a great human being. >> Yeah. And you you never you never said you have to practice because you just knew it was Mets. You wouldn't let him down, >> right? >> Mets still down. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> It's part of the >> That's fascinating. >> I have a question. Maybe this goes to Kevin looking at your list here. So, you have a couple notes. You've mentioned we've talked a lot about that about the the personality traits. Um but you have a line here that's I guess referring to I think it's on page 16, but it says need to be a good faker. Yeah. >> So, what is that referring to with per if with performing with whatever what does being a good faker uh >> refer to? >> Um, he talks a lot about this in the syncupation book in the early drum set stuff. And so, he's talking about you you have to be able to make your parts up if the if the need arises. So, you have to know these beats that are on the page, but you know, if you're playing a show and all of a sudden they bring out this act, you need to be able to fake your part. You need to be able to make something up on. So, you have to have totally embraced what was in this book so that now you can do it at sight. And and he also builds in ways to develop improvisation in there. So, uh, you know, here you play this and then now, like Glenn was saying, maybe you put it out to cowbells and you play it on cowbells and then you play it here and then so a real practical approach of you're on the job, you got to you got to be able to think on your feet all the time, but you also have to read the music when it's there. >> And and if I can interject, that's something that's super cool about his books that we haven't really touched on yet is everything. It's not just pages of exercises. It is, but they are all in eight bar musical phrases. Two, four. Every one of them has an ending, a cadence at the end. You know, you're you're working on the concept. And each page he talks about this is what we're going to address uh in this lesson. And then he goes through everything, you know, about being a good musician, about the technical uh aspects of what's going to happen. And then each line you play twice, and every one of them ends with a cadence. J cha or you know something so you can tell it's a phrase ending. So it's ingrained in in you the the the length of a musical phrase, the shape of a musical phrase. Um and so that's a way you can also like that comes with, you know, if you have to fake or play along with it. You're not just like playing time or whatever. You can you can actually like insert everything that you've worked on here because there's nothing that you work on in his books that isn't done in a musical a practical musical way. It's not just technical development, you know, like obviously like, you know, uh stick control is is the Bible for all drummers, but that is that's those are exercises where this is, you know, exercises, but in terms of music, you could play this down and it would sound like an etude, anything in his books. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> As opposed to a a page of exercises, but Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh, I I liked at the very end of of syncupation where he actually puts the mama data roll in there. So, a doublestroke roll. So, if you're playing like a pula, you go dug dug and you can put the accents on different hands. So, all that becomes practical. So, now he's incorporated the doublestroke roll into there. Yeah, he was really >> he does have a he does have a page of alternating flams too, getting back to what we were saying before, you know, a lot of triplet rhythms, a lot of uh you know, dotted rhythms. He covers it all. Um but, uh yeah, and I wanted to ask too because a lot of times when I worked on the book, uh all the roles you'd add crescendos to or it would be like, uh Kevin, you did all these exercises with me about dynamics, inserting the dynamics in. Was that again from Tim VMs or via Ed Straight? like did Ed Straight teach it this way because you know music notation at that time you couldn't just like you know no Selius no like it was handwritten and very uh you know archaic uh printing so you couldn't necessarily add all these little uh >> dynamic markings and everything without without it being astronomically expensive. So was that something that you think came directly from straight all those little nuances and dynamics? I I would say so Tim I mean they had to come from Mets >> you know uh something that I I just remembered Glenn how we used to do the book also besides right hand then left hand we would play everything at a piano level >> so you would have your finesse at a piano level >> and then when you wanted to play louder you just brought your stick heights up and you played >> but I can remember >> struggling you know and Another thing, the 68 book, that is one that's probably the that stretches the system most. Okay. Because he does instead of right, left, right, left, right, left. >> Yes. >> It's right, left, right, right, left, right, right, left, right. >> Which makes perfect sense because >> Correct. >> Sorry. Right. Go ahead. And if you're if you're playing uh a Irish jig j that's all your right hand that's those are the main beats the strong beats and then you fill in with the left hand. So uh that one becomes very useful. That's just our shuffle of today. >> Yeah that's practical drum set usage is using one hand to do the shuffle and >> right >> less out of a book you know. >> Yeah. Right. But boy, how many times have you seen that in a publication, Tim? >> Zero. >> Zero. It always goes back to hand to hand. >> He was um and these are things you don't know about unless you knew him. He was incredibly intuitive, but Mr. Metsinger was not a a scholar. He was wise, but he didn't go through the same. And uh at Ball State they just added a performance part a degree and you could audition then you could get if you got on they would give you a full scholarship and you could spend your life in the practice room. And I had gotten one of them and he wrote me this beautiful note that said don't take it. I'm like what do you mean don't take it? Are you nuts? My god it's going to pay for everything. And uh the note was about no I I think you were born to be a teacher not count rests. And I went and I said, 'Are you sure about this? And he goes, "Yeah." And he was right. >> Wow. >> Was your undergrad in music education or in percussion? >> It was in music education with an emphasis in percussion. >> Okay. >> If that makes sense. >> Yeah. >> And people went there obviously to study with Mets. >> That's why you go to school, Ball State, because he was there. Uh >> yeah. I just think of the culture he provided where we all felt we all felt like we were somebody that you know even the weakest one was still included. There was no TV tray at the end of the table. >> Does that make sense? >> You sit down there. >> Glenn wasn't the first percussion degree really in the mid to late 50s. I believe before then you had to you were a piano major or you were some other kind of major. >> Yeah. So >> was a percussion major but it was in piano. >> Oh interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So >> yeah because like Roy Nap Yeah. He was a a xylophone player at first and then Yeah. Yeah. which um I don't know why I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but I was just looking through this excellent it just I was reminded that when the idea of this episode came up, I first contacted >> um uh Rob Cook from Rebe and who put on the the Chicago drum show all those years and he wrote that fantastic book Franks for the Memories about Frank's drum shop and that's where he talks about the Dixie drum shop. But here's a a photo from that book and you can see there's like a young there's Ed Strait. He's the elder statesman here because you also have like you know a young Bobby Christian. You have the um you know the Gulp brothers in there. You've got uh um at the end of the table with the cigar is Roy Knap. But you can tell like he is the oldest guy there. He's kind of the the you know >> the corner >> the godfather to all of them who connected all these dots. It's uh pretty fascinating. But I have to thank Rob Cook for also giving me photos, putting me in touch, giving me the name of his granddaughter, which is why I've been able to kind of connect all these dots. In fact, I'm such a dork. I drove past Ed Strait's house last night because uh where I live in Chicago, if you go uh, you know, a half mile up, we're at the Wilco studio. Five blocks from the Wilco studio is the house that Ed Straight bought in 1909 and had his two children in and wrote all of these books in. and you know go down the street from there and it's the uh Degan factory right off these are all off Irving Park in in Chicago. It's the Degan factory where Kevin also worked. And then you know you continue cuz this was kind of ground zero for a lot of you know at that point in time people came from New Orleans. They came from around all over the Midwest. Chicago was where you know kind of the birthplace. >> In fact the first time the word jazz was ever used to describe music was 1915 in Chicago. So, like that's like >> uh you know, this was a it's it's just so cool for me to be so uh uh in the proximity of where all this history took place. But that's just a side note. >> You can edit that out later. But >> you forgot the Leadwig Drum Company, >> of course. Right there. >> And >> yeah, where were they located exactly? That was that more downtown? >> No, that was on Damon. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> Yeah. and um and and Strait was a staff instructor at the Lewig Drum Company, >> right? >> So, I mean, man, yeah. Yeah, it was a hub of activity, that's for sure. >> For sure. And I want to mention that there is a uh Frank's Drum Shop episode that Rob Cook did on the podcast, uh which is fantastic. Rob's been on many episodes, but the Frank's episode was great. Um >> Yeah. >> Okay, guys. here as we're we're probably getting close to time because I want to uh be cognizant of of of your time, but I want to share my screen um and then show you guys if this is okay with you, Glenn. Glenn pulled a lot of great um newspaper clippings, but there's some really cool photos. So, I want to bring these up and then maybe Glenn and the rest of the guys, Kevin and Tim, you can you can address them, too. But, I just want to make sure that that work doesn't go to uh wasn't used in vain. Yeah. And I I would have to give credit to Rob Cook, but also uh Kathy um Strait's only surviving granddaughter and also the woman who bought the Straight House, Jill Summer. She researched all the history of the house and found a lot of these clippings and gave them to Cath to Kathy. Yeah. >> Wow. >> So, we have uh Glenn, tell me when to stop here, but I figured we would talk about there's a lot of clippings, but I figured we could just address some of the images because obviously if you're on YouTube, it's a very visual platform. And um I I first got a picture up here. Edward B Straight 75 playing drum at memorial services yesterday uh on the floor of the board of trade. That's a cool picture. >> All right, guys. >> Yeah, there's one of these photos. It shows that he came um when he was in the 70s playing uh helping out because the guys were in World War II. >> It was like 1943 and so many of the drummers were overseas in World War II that he came and helped out and was playing in their as a sub. And is that the one where he's playing the bass drum with with two sticks? >> Yeah, he might be double drumming in one of them. >> Double druming. Yeah. >> Old school double druming. Precursor to the drum kit. Yeah. >> Yeah. Very handsome uniform. And he's got I mean he's This is This is very cool. So um All right. Uh we've got some I'm going to skip ahead just to some of the more visual stuff. Um cuz I know there is What's the story? There's a table here, Glad. What's the story? >> Oh, that's a bench. That's that's actually in his in his granddaughter's house. That was his bench. Um u I'm assuming like a drum stool that she still has. It was handed down. She was born the same year that he passed away. So she actually never met him. But um you know, Strait had two kids and um and one was was um Ed Strait Jr. Um, and he had uh two kids, Kathy who survived and then um her brother Richard who is also a drummer and um but he passed away 40 years ago. >> So um that's kind of Yeah. So she was left with with this as well as some many clippings and some of the books and stuff which um you know she said she'd be happy to send to us as well. >> That's neat. I mean he probably sat on that bench and gave lessons and um >> Yep. Or put a bass drum on it and >> Yeah. Yeah. Strap a snare drum to it so he could double drum. Yeah, >> exactly. >> And it looks like a full >> There he is at that house I was at yesterday. >> Yeah, >> I love it. I love it. >> Yeah, >> that's a great picture. That's obviously I would assume his wife and uh >> Yep. Okay. Love it. If you're just listening, this is a great picture. He's dressed up. Looks like they're going somewhere formal. Bow tie, hat, um long coat. Um, she's dressed up. Looks nice. Um, okay. Here we go. Next picture. >> This is the Nard, right? >> Yeah. >> This is the birth of Nard. >> 13 people and 13 original rudiments. >> Yep. Royap, George Stone. >> Wow. >> Great picture. >> Of course, >> Miller. And you have uh Tim, you have Heiny Gerlock in there. I love it. I absolutely love this. >> H so much history. All right, so let's move. >> There's the house today, right, Glenn? That's where you were last night. >> Yeah. >> Very cool. Did he do any lessons from his home or was he working mainly out of um Frank's or at the I guess he would work at the Lewig factory. I mean, I'm sure he >> Well, I think it was the Dixie Music house and then and then Frank's drum shop probably primarily. I don't know about his home or not. Um >> Yep. >> Yeah. I just don't think that information is out there. I'm not sure. >> Nice clipping here. Um looks like same day, different picture. >> Uhhuh. >> Mhm. >> Yep. >> All right. Let's see. We'll we'll go through these. Ages of >> W. So, he's on a He's on a base on its side or >> It looks like it. Yeah. So cool. That's why I love this because, you know, his his uh straight system of right-hand lead was just so uh crucial for orchestral drumming to be able to play the same thing and make it sound the exact same way every time. If you play da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d it's not going to be da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d you know it's going to sound the exact same exactly what composers and conductors wanted consistency and he had all that but he was also obviously a rudimental drummer and the drum set I mean it's just kind of mind-blowing the confluence of all these styles and uh >> um you know what would be musical history in this one person >> you know that brings up too Glenn is that you know at at his time all calf skin drum heads. So when when he's talking about rolls, even though you may be playing a a loose doublestroke roll on a calf skinin head, it's going to sound pretty closed all together. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Depending on the humidity. >> Depend. Right. Right. >> Yeah. I love I I did a short series of like old reading old drum newspaper articles that was on YouTube. You can go look. It's got a playlist. You can go back and look at it. And I love the old writing where it's like ages of six Grotto band hecats total 400 years and then it's like Mr. Straight beats it solid at 75, Mr. Nelson uh supplies oomph at 80 on his tuba. It's like the the old writing was so funny. Yeah. Uh in these in these papers, but all right, that's a cool one. Let's see. We'll do a few more here. >> There we go. >> Oh man, >> look at that. >> Look at that. So he's got >> so cool. Big old bass drum trap style kind of bass drum is there. >> Oh, the snare may be over here. >> Yeah, I think >> Yeah. Is at an angle. But you got the the symbol which had that beater attached to the bass drum. >> Yep. >> Yep. Which Oh, you probably can't see, but like that. If you can see that. I don't know if you can see that symbol down there attached to the bass drum. Yeah, >> that's my kit from Well, it's old. >> The teens. >> Yep. War brings back veteran drummer uh 72, >> but he still wields a wicked pair of sticks. Uh like >> those look like marching sticks. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Great picture. All right. What do we What do we have here, Glenn? >> I don't know. >> This is a picture of It might be. Yeah, there was in some of the articles it talks about, you know, like um just VFW concerts and and drum and bugle core uh um I guess like a parade with a thousand drummers or a thousand people performing and like you know he played all sorts of different events. Um >> yeah, >> so I'm not exactly sure what this one was. >> That looks like California. >> I was going to say I'm fairly certain certain those aren't those aren't Chicago palm trees. So uh >> yeah, I don't know. Yeah. All right, that's a good one. Looks like we got some more. Um, man, he was active. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Some um >> and luckily he fell in between the two wars, the Civil War and World War I. He would have been too old for World War I. So, um but he did get, you know, he was, I think, a sergeant. >> Yes. >> Perhaps. and just having played in Souza's band obviously president's own and then um or it might have been when Susa after he left the military but still >> Gladstone played with Seusa's band as well didn't he >> I believe so or was it Mohler I'm not I should know this >> there's so many to know >> I think I think I think it might have been Mhler >> okay >> yeah Samford Mohler because he loved his sound he could get that volume >> okay unbelievable I have learned so much. I mean, really, to me, the whole takeaway of this is it it seems like it's it's a like um like it's psychological stuff. It's be a good person. It's it's how you act in your daily life. And it's also if something's working for you, then keep doing that as opposed to pushing yourself to practice something that you're not going to because I've done that. We all do that our whole life. Like, oh, I got to practice this left-handed now. >> He's like, why? and being inclusive. You know, there's rudimental, there's right-hand lead. And and you know, that's something I've always taken away from this, too. I play traditional, I play match, I play French, I play, you know, multiple percussion, I play traditional drum set, every, you know, it's it's a vast world of percussion. And I think the more that you include in your playing, the the more you're going to be able to express yourself, the bigger your vocabulary is going to be. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. All right, guys. As we wrap up, why don't we go here around the table and just everyone can kind of share a little info if they want to plug a website or a book or teachings or anything. Glenn, why don't you start off? I think people know kind of where to find and hear you, but what do you want to share? Social media, all that good stuff. Um, >> for good question. It's kind of quiet time right now, but I do I I mean, I'll be on the road a bunch with Wilco next year, of course. And, um, solo performances, all that stuff's always up on my website. I do. Yesterday I released it was the 311th consecutive beat uh uh week. Uh I've been releasing what I consider an original drum beat uh musical. Some are pitched, some are not. Uh some are electronic, some are not, but once a week I um I release a a beat of something that I didn't think of or couldn't play the week before when that week started. And I've done that for 311 consecutive weeks. And that's on Instagram. and they go to my website too, which is just Glen Coochi, Glen Coochi. But that uh that's been a fun project because it forces me to um to come out and anywhere from 5 minutes to a couple hours every week, work on something and discover something, explore something that I wouldn't have otherwise. So, it's been a nice process peeps for me. But >> yeah, we love it. Everyone I know I mean it's it's uh consistency is the key. I can I mean on my end of doing the podcast, consistency is difficult, but um that's what makes the cream rise to the top of of just like you just keep doing it. Um >> Kevin, uh anything you want to share as we wrap up? >> Well, I I think the closest thing to the straight system writing that I've ever done is in a publication called Warm-ups and Beyond FJH music. And they allowed me to put in all the right-hand lead sticking. And uh actually in the book there's these so the band is warming up and the percussion is now also warming up with them using right-hand lead sticking and the percussion also have a little percussion ensemble like a little eight bar phrase that they get to play on their own. So that's probably the closest uh that I have to uh uh showing what the straight system is all about. Um, but what's coming up, I'm always looking for ways to get the band directors to say, "Can we bridge this gap? Can we uh do better with sticking? Can we do better with musicality? Uh, can can can we really have a system that works rather than just the sort of shotgun approach that you guys use?" So, I'm always looking for that and uh continue to work with people with that. >> Cool. Tim, anywhere you want to send people to find your work, get in touch with you, anything like that? >> Uh, contact Kevin Leper. >> He's your handler. >> Well, no. Kevin Kevin's not only my best friend and my best student and my little brother and he and the family have let me be part of him. So, that and it's just been a joy to to meet Glenn and you, Bart. I Kevin talks so highly of >> you got to be pretty hard to get through that system. So, but he keeps saying, you know, how great you guys are and um if anything was understated. So, thanks for the inclusion as part of this and bringing up heartfelt memories that bring tears to my eyes >> and and yeah, and Tim to have you here. I mean, Tim's an absolute legend uh you know, in music education, motivation, and and you know, just a pivotal person. Uh super important to me and so many others. Uh yeah, so it's just an honor to have you as a part of this. Seriously, it's really really a joy. >> And and Glenn, to add to that, you know, everybody talks about his motivational skills and that he is a killer musician. >> Yeah. >> A killer drum set player, concert, piano, conductor. I mean, he's got it going. >> We only see him in in the >> as you are, Kevin. You're known as an educator, but you you man. Yeah. So yeah, >> a room full of monster drummers >> is a is a simple way to put it. >> I wanted to ask one last question, but it may not be part of the podcast. You might edit it out, but Kevin, when since you were teaching at Cavaliers for so long, when did the system of kind of the rudimental more everything rudimental to more of a right-hand lead, consistent um controlled? When did that switch take place? Was that Bridgemond? Was that Was that before your time? Was that after your time? Was that Campbell? >> Yeah. I don't know the answer to that. That would be for Jim Campbell or Brett Co. Okay. Those guys are >> I'll ask them sometime. >> No, because my days with Cavalere was more the pit. And what we did was we we sort of incorporated percussion ensemble into the front line. That was what we were >> Well, you revolutionized it. Yeah. But >> well, gentlemen, uh, well, first I thank you to everyone, but Glenn, you have really been truly the champion of this and and and sticking with me cuz I've had over the last year, the podcast has slowed down. It's been once you hit three kids, it was like, okay, this is becoming extremely hard and then work and but we bumped into each other at the Chicago drum show and I've seen you pay and it's always um, hey, we got to do this, we got to do this and you know, you have learned like some of these episodes take a year. I remember the Noble and episode took four years to get put together. I mean, you're not working on it eight hours a day, but it's like um it's a it's a it's just spinning plates to keep it all >> moving all the time. Um so, I truly appreciate you for, you know, doing this and sticking with it. And um >> thanks for not losing interest and also for doing this cuz there's really no other a there would be no other avenue I could think of to do this. And for me, this is a launching point to, you know, get get straight into the the PAS Hall of Fame to get these publications back out there with Kevin's with Kevin's methodology, uh, you know, as part of part of the books, too, and his teaching style that he got from Tim and from Metinger. Yeah. >> Yep. He seems like jumping off point, I hope. >> Yeah. For PA for PAS, I mean, it's a no-brainer. So, um, you know, we we can endorse him here for that. Yeah, he's already got a handful of students in the PS Hall of Fame. So, >> makes perfect sense. So, >> all right, gentlemen. Uh Glenn, Kevin, Tim, thank you so much. Thanks to everyone for watching and uh listening and sticking with the show. I know the release schedule slowed down a little bit, but I figured I'd rather release them slowly than not at all. So, we'll just keep it rolling out as they as they happen. So, um thank you gentlemen. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday and and thank you for being here. >> Great. Thanks a lot. >> Thanks so much. Great seeing you all. >> Thanks, Mark. Hey,