The First at 250: Governors Shapiro and Cox on the First Amendment and Civil Dialogue

When I think of freedom of expression myself, it's a human right. It's something that enables individuals to hold their own opinions. >> The foundation of the First Amendment, it's there to give us the right to criticize government, to give press the freedom to chronicle what's going on. My whole lived experience has been continual lessons in why I should keep my mouth shut. >> As I think of like my upbringing, um, and sort of the the values that I was raised with around like keep to yourself, it was all around like survival, right? Like, oh, you don't want to be too loud, you don't want people to notice you because fly under the radar. But then there's a cost. There's such a high cost to that. And so I think sometimes I would just kind of keep to myself a little bit for fear of like I knew what other people thought and I knew that they were not going to agree with me. >> I feel the most comfortable in myself when I'm out there in front of students speaking sharing my journey and my why >> to recognize that you know if you have certain talents or beliefs or desires of having an impact you can't do it quietly. You got to show up. You got to speak up. If we can kind of come to a common cause, a common idea on how we identify what freedom of speech truly looks like and how we can have productive conversations around the issues and not devaluing other people opinions or expertise um I think that we can better ourselves as a society. I want more people to hear the different conversations, the different perspectives, and we actually display what America should be, which is a melting pot of ideas, of religions, of culture. >> Please welcome Knight Foundation President and CEO, Marabel Perez Wadssworth. One sentence, five essential freedoms. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people to peaceibly assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. That's the first amendment of the United States Constitution. It's what we've come here to talk about, to celebrate, and to protect. Good evening and welcome to the first at 250. Two and a half centuries ago, here in Philadelphia, the founders argued a country into existence. They debated, they discussed, and they drafted. Tonight, I'm pleased that we've been able to gather a new generation of Philadelphiaians as we discuss a crucial part of democracy invented here, the First Amendment. What you heard moments ago were the voices of everyday Americans, neighbors, talking about their experiences, speaking up, and expressing themselves. It's a snapshot of how the First Amendment is lived in America today. Tonight, we'll continue that conversation. Knight Foundation has spent more than 75 years advocating for the free press and for free expression across our communities, the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment. Every other freedom we have as Americans rests on our First Amendment rights. and so does our self-government. In this milestone year for American independence, it felt important to be here in Philadelphia with the people who live where our democracy was created. We're here tonight to honor the freedom that has always rung out in this city. from street corners and in pamphlets, in newspapers, in poor Richard's almanac, and yes, from a cracked bell at the top of Independence Hall. Night Foundation's history in Philadelphia doesn't quite go back 250 years, but we've been here for decades. Our foundation traces its roots to Night Newspapers, which in the middle of the 20th century became one of the most successful news companies in the country. Jack and Jim Knight were passionate advocates for journalism, for a free press, and for the people who build thriving communities. In 1969, they bought the Inquirer and the Daily News, and together with hard-hitting Philadelphia journalists, they rebuilt the two papers into powerhouse metro dailies. Over nearly four decades of night ownership, those journalists won 20 Puliter prizes. Our work today carries on Jack and Jim's legacy operating in the 26 communities where they once published newspapers. We've always been proud to call Philadelphia a night city and to stand alongside the Philadelphiaians who make no apology about working hard to make their city stronger. Since 1970, we've invested more than a quarter billion dollars to support your vision for this great city. Journalism is at the heart of what we do. It's why Knight has been a major supporter of The Inquirer and its nonprofit parent company, the Lenfest Institute for Journalism. And it's why we're helping public media stations like our friends at WHYY preserve access to independent local news despite federal funding cuts. Thriving public spaces and robust free expression go hand in hand. That's why we're advancing projects that bring people together, create economic opportunity, and foster a sense of place. We know that the arts are essential civic infrastructure. So, we're here alongside artists and cultural leaders who make Philadelphia stronger, more inclusive, and more vibrant. We're proud to invest in the village of industry and art, which is supporting creative businesses and providing affordable housing for artists just down the street. Tonight, we're proud to be here in the home of the worldrenowned Philadelphia Orchestra, another night grantee, and to collaborate with the National Constitution Center on the first ever, but not the last, First Amendment Day. Now, together with the Disagree Better team, we're ready to close out this day with this special event. for Knight. All of this work is interconnected. A thriving information ecosystem, public spaces open to all, and robust arts and culture. They are the foundations of a healthy community. But there's one more crucial ingredient, and that's us. Each of us must do our part. We must demand reliable information. We must engage with one another. We must help to shape the cities we want and the future we aspire to. Our right to self-determination is safeguarded by the First Amendment, which ensures that the power in our country always rests with the people. But our rights are only as strong as our willingness as Americans to stand up for them, to insist on them, and to get out there and use them. Today, our Americans worry that our First Amendment rights are weakening. Research we've commissioned shows that Americans still believe protecting free expression is vital to our democracy. Yet, at the same time, barely more than half of Americans feel free to express their political views without fear of government reprisal. Worse, they expect to feel even less free a decade from now. And they have good reason. Our country's founders could not have imagined our world today. Technology is reshaping how we access information. There are vast changes in the ways we live and work, connect with each other, and many times fail to connect. But what our founders knew was that unchecked power leads to overreach and that the people must have tools to push back. The First Amendment doesn't exist simply to protect our rights to disagree with one another. It gives us the power to demand change. It gives the people the right to assemble and to protest, yes, but also to affirmatively shape our nation in the image of our highest ideals. to demand that our political leaders, the proxies of we the people, protect the inaliable rights our founders envisioned. Because how free we feel as Americans should not depend on whether the party in power happens to be our own. We do not have to accept division. We do not have to accept polarization. We do not have to accept a civic space where we shout over each other and talk around each other and never listen to what anyone else has to say. Each of us can demand better from our leaders. We can make the choice to talk and listen and to be respectful and open-minded. We can choose to make our First Amendment freedom stronger, to preserve them for future generations, to demand they be upheld. Tonight, we're making that choice. Disagree Better is a nationwide nonpartisan project created by the National Governor's Association to help people find ways to have conversations, sometimes difficult ones, in ways that are respectful and productive. We're fortunate to have with us tonight two governors. Josh Shapiro, a Democrat I think you know, and Spencer Cox, the Republican from Utah, and they will be discussing together the First Amendment and free expression. Now, they won't necessarily agree, but I know they're going to have a thoughtful conversation. They'll show how respectful civic dialogue is still possible and that we can remain open to changing our point of view. They'll model how we can all practice the art of disagreeing better, not just on stages and in organized forums, but among ourselves, with our friends and our neighbors. The governor's conversation will be moderated by Lulu Garcia Navaro, co-host of the New York Times podcast, The Interview. Tonight they will model a way forward. We all will together. This is our choice to talk better, to listen better, and perhaps even to change our minds. It's how our country will go stronger, how we'll once again learn to work together, and it's how we'll carry our democracy and the First Amendment into another 250 years. Now, please join me in welcoming Governor Spencer Cox, Governor Josh Shapiro, and Lulu Garcia Navaro. Good evening everyone. Um, thank you so much for being here and of course, thank you to both of you for being here this evening on what I think is just such an important topic. Um, we are at a moment, I think, when many people are thinking about our rights and our responsibilities. And I'm hoping that we can touch on some both of those here this evening. But before we start, I always like to start with a little bit of fun because I think this might be a little bit more serious um because there's many weighty subjects to discuss and I always like to get to know people. It's the first time I've met you both. Um, what is bringing you joy at the moment? Something short. What is a movie that you're watching? What is a film? What is a What is a something that is just made you laugh? Like, let's give it to me. >> Oh, you want you go first. You're You're the visitor. Yeah. >> By the way, Spencer Cox is a wonderful human being and I'm thrilled you're getting to meet him. Thank you. I You're very kind. Um, >> what brings you joy, Gov? They Well, uh, Philly cheese steakakes bring me joy. So, well, >> good answer. >> They know the hometown crowd. >> He knows his audience. >> But, which ones? >> Don't pick. >> I'm not picking all of them. I love them all the same. Look, I I do have one. Um, two and a half weeks ago, my wife Abby, who's here with uh us tonight, and I became grandparents, and nothing is bringing us more joy than >> than little Finn. So, yeah, I can't wait to get home to hold him again. The worst part is they're making us share him with his parents. >> Oh. >> And it's it's terrible. >> I love that. Congratulations. Um, I don't get much of a break, but this weekend I got to hike on the Appalachian Trail in Pennsylvania with my wife Lori, who's here with Abby Cox. They're they're together here tonight. And um, Lori is actually in the midst of hiking the entire Appalachian Trail across Pennsylvania. Wow. >> And she let me join her for a little bit. So, we did eight miles. It was awesome. And it was good to just breathe some fresh air for a few moments. >> Oh, that >> I I just have to interject. It's It's so nice that we had a governor hiking the Appalachian Trail with his wife. >> Sorry. That's a uh >> like actually with my wife. It's really good. >> Actually hiking Appalachian Trail. >> I told Lori that she didn't get the joke. That's a >> That's an insider political >> many years ago. But some of you know >> if you know, you know. There was once someone who was not hiking the Appalachian Trail, >> nor with his wife, >> nor with his wife. >> Mark Sanford, we salute you for coming everybody. >> Now we're going to get serious. >> All right. So, one of the reasons I was very excited to sit here and talk to you both tonight, is because I think you both model something important, which we've seen a little bit of here, but I put it that you like to work together when you can and disagree and oppose when you must. Um, I I see that political philosophy in both of the ways that you two govern. I want to start by asking you what do when you look at each other in the way that you do politics. What do you admire about the other? What do you see in the other's way of doing politics and you think um is something that you want to take an example from? Well, I appreciate that Governor Cox has real conviction, things that ground him, things that he believes in, which by the way, many of them I fundamentally disagree with. No, no, I I'm not saying it to be a joke. I I say that that I respect the fact he has conviction even where I disagree with the substantive policy positions he takes, but that those convictions never shut him down from having a conversation with someone who might view the world differently. I learned early on as a new governor the importance of never closing a door, never stopping dialogue, and never saying, "I won't talk to that person." And my role model in that within our community of governors was Governor Cox. Even before you all got to know him more nationally with some of the things he did in the wake of the killing of Charlie Kirk, I knew him as a role model to me as someone who can be true to your convictions but also dialogue, work with others, and try and find common ground. >> Um, thank you. That's that's very kind. >> You can't say the same thing. I I know. I So now I'm like, well, I can't I can't use that one because it does apply and it's 100% true. I I'll go this direction then. Um he uh I've been so impressed with his ability to uh to get stuff done. Um GSD. We Abby said I couldn't use my farm words tonight. Uh >> you're in Philly. You're allowed to say >> this guy gets done, man. Um Uh, no. I I I I mean that sincerely. Look, >> that's going to be on a campaign. >> No, he he's he's working with a um a divided legislature, right? Um I I have a supermajority. It's a lot easier to get stuff done when we just, you know, we kind of agree on it. Although sometimes we disagree even with a uh with a super majority. But but I I I I really did admire that. And of course there was something that happened here, an experience happened when uh when there was an accident and a major freeway fell apart. And I thought, well, here we go. Um, you know, this this is the test. Let's let's see how he does. And I'm sure everybody here was was thinking the same thing. And then then he did it. In fact, you know, I I'm pretty proud of my team and I think we're we're the best at everything. and we all looked at each other and said, I I'm not sure I'm not sure we we could have done that that quickly and in the way the way that he did it with permitting reform, other things that he's working on. We we we've been modeling uh after after him and his administration. And so just really proud of that. If I have to choose something different, that's that's the one I would choose. >> So I want to tell the audience why I wanted to start with this. Um, first of all, mostly politicians talk about themselves. So, I wanted you to give you the opportunity to talk to about each other, but also there is something that we don't often see and it's something that you have recently written about. Um, Governor Cox, you have a new book which is all about um the subject we're discussing tonight. It's called Offramp. And in it, you write, and I'm quoting here, "The problem isn't that we are disagreeing with each other. We're despising each other. And there are sort of varying statistics on this now. And I think we're all living this, but we're seeing an increase in people moving neighborhoods, states to be with like-minded people. We're seeing young people not want to date those who have opposing views or political alignments. Can you expand on that idea of despising those who do not hold your political views? What worries you about that so deeply? >> We um in in researching for the book, we talked to lots of experts um reviewed the research um some some marriage experts uh marriage therapists who will will tell you that uh that that they can very quickly ascertain whether a marriage is going to survive or not. um pretty quickly kind of on the first visit. And it's it's not if if you disagree and you fight. That's not the key. Um a lot of marriages there's fighting and and they can make it work. It's do you do you have contempt for your partner? Do you despise your partner? And uh sometimes they'll they'll notice that through through an eye roll. They not all eye rolls. I I get lots of eye rolls. Our marriage is very healthy. Um but uh I just got one now, I think. Um but uh but but but that idea of of despising is is so dangerous and and so toxic because uh look conflict is neutral. There there's there's unhealthy conflict and and there's healthy conflict and conflict can be good. Conflict can build build relationships can make you stronger when you have these serious disagreements. But um when when we have contempt for our fellow Americans, the you know the subtitle of the book is how to be a peacemaker in an age of contempt. And we are living in an age of contempt where and I see this all the time. Um someone will say uh the the first question they ask is you know did who did you vote for? And and if you voted for Donald Trump I I can't I can't even I can't have a conversation with you. Or if you voted for for you know Kla Harris I'm I'm out. I'm I'm done with that. And uh what what worries me most uh is that over the past decade, we've seen an almost uh four-fold increase in the number of people who have stopped communicating, who who have lost a close friend or a family member. Um I think about that again. It used to be about 6%, now it's about 24% of Americans have lost a friend or a family member to to politics. Um, politics has become a religion for so many people. It it's it's become and and there's there's a lot of research behind this. We're lonelier than we've ever been before. But this experiment that we embarked on 250 years ago right here, I mean, a stones throw from where we are tonight, that that experiment cannot survive if we have contempt. if we despise half of the country, if we refuse to engage and debate and and that's that concerns me and it should concern all of us. Again, I think it's why you're all here tonight because you're worried about that or you wouldn't come to see see the two of us, although we know they came for you. >> Yeah. I mean, don't lie, you're here for me. Let's be honest. >> Can I just pick up on something that the governor said? You know, he referred to what happened here 250 years ago about seven blocks from where we sit now, where a band of patriots left our taverns and our town squares and they gathered at what is now Independence Hall and they declared their independence from a king. They fought a war and came back a decade later and set up the scaffolding for what would be, I would argue, the greatest nation on the history of the face of the earth. They wrote a lot of words in both of those documents, but it was particularly hard for them to find consensus when it came to the Constitution. And they battled and they fought. And a lot of them probably didn't like each other, but they were there in common purpose. They treated one another with respect. And they got to a point where the sort of elderly el older statesman of the bunch, Ben Franklin, one of my predecessors is governor by the way, said he kind of called he called it and he said this, you know, this is it. We've got to all sign this. But then more important than the words on the piece of paper at that constitutional convention is what he said when he walked outside onto the cobbled stone streets of Philadelphia. When a woman walked over to him, remember women didn't have the right to vote at this moment. And yet a woman walks over to Dr. Franklin and says to him, one of our founders, Dr. Franklin, what do we have here? A monarchy or a republic? And Franklin said, "A republic if you can keep it." Franklin understood that after fighting and battling at Independence Hall of compromises that led to the Constitution that he was leaving it to successive generations to do this work. And inherent in that responsibility that he passed down to you and me and everyone else here was a responsibility that we would treat one another with the level of respect necessary to have the dialogue that we would need to have to move our nation forward and constantly work to perfect our union. It was sort of baked in to that underlying sentiment that even with these differences, there would be a level of respect that would bring people together to do this work to perfect our union and strengthen our democracy. That is the legacy of what happened at Independence Hall right here in Philadelphia. And that's the work we need to do. And that's why what Spencer wrote, what Governor Cox wrote in that book about the importance of finding ways to dialogue and treating people with respect, that's why it's so important because it creates the opportunity for dialogue that strengthens our union and makes our nation more prosperous, more happy, more free, and more just. And yet and yet we are gathering here on the eve of when the one-year anniversary of Charlie Kirk's assassination which I know Governor Cox um happened in your state affected you personally um quite deeply and was I think a watershed moment for many of us in this country. I remember at the time your speech which was incredibly affecting. Um you spoke from the heart. You made a clarion call for it to be a wakeup call for all of us for precisely what you were just talking about Governor Shapiro. And you said on the afternoon of Charlie Kirk's killing, "Our nation is broken." And I'm just wondering now, one year later, what reflections you have and if you are disappointed by what's happened um or if you see some glimmers of hope. >> Yeah, thank you. Uh so that was a that was a heavy moment for sure. Um I I I really appreciate the kind words. Uh but but I I have to tell you that on my way to that press conference, I'd received messages from lots of lots of people. Um Governor Wesmore had reached out who had dealt with a terrible tragedy when a bridge in in his state in Maryland fell, killing six people and destroying their economy o overnight. Uh I I received a a message from Josh Green, the governor of Hawaii, who had a an entire city burn up on Maui. Incredible loss of life. just just awful circumstances. And then I got a message from from this guy um and uh who had uh who had dealt with his own tragedies. I know we'll talk about that. Had had had was the governor um at an attempted assassination of the former president at the time where there was a tragic death that that happened there. And I called him on the way to the press conference and he told me to ditch my talking points and to speak from the heart. And so I'm grateful for that advice. I took it and uh it um it it was it was really important in in that moment. So, but to answer your question, I I I um I I talk about all of the uh all the political violence that's happened in our country over the past 10 years. And as I as I write about that, you'll you will have forgotten some of them. There's been so many like, "Oh my gosh, I I didn't even remember that that one happened." And yet, um there is hope. And o over the past year since that tragic day, um I'm seeing auditoriums filled with people who are desperate for something different, who uh who are tired of the the toxicity, who are hungry for something more. Um just today, I I uh I was on the Daily Show last night. I I may be the first Republican in history, I don't know, to to go on there. It was it was a wild experience. I don't know if it went well, but um but this morning I got a text from a friend who said, "Hey, my mother-in-law just came over. She doesn't like you very much. She disagrees with your politics. She's very liberal." And she said, "I just ordered the this book. I have a brother that I haven't spoken to in years, and I need to try to fix that relationship." So, like I don't know that that we're we're going to save the country overnight, but I but I truly believe that the way we save the country is one conversation and one relationship at a time. I said this at that time that it we we we can't wait for a president or a governor. Um it we get to decide, you and I Americans, it's always been the case that we get to decide every single day, am I going to be am I going to be an architect or an arsonist? Am I going to be a builder today or am I going to tear down? And I'm going am I going to post that message on social media or am I going to log off and go touch grass and and talk to real people? And uh I I hope that I I know we are. I'm optimistic. I'm more hopeful than I've been in a long time. the pendulum swinging and and you're seeing it tonight. you know, those statistics that you talk about, I was looking at them, too, and they're pretty sobering. Um, when we think about political violence, because while crime is going down across this country, um, last year there was a 40% increase in acts of political violence. I mean, that is an astonishing statistic. Um, there was a 58% increase in 2025 of threats against members of Congress. You know, I've lived in conflict zones all over the world. And that kind of political violence is often a canary for other types of violence that engulf a society. And I know that that is what you, Governor Cox, are speaking to and trying to prevent. Governor Shapiro, obviously you yourself faced this. You had a horrific event um that hit your family. A person wanted to burn down the residence. um threat if he had gotten to where you were um he had threatened to bludgeon you with a hammer. There was the attempted assassination of President Trump in the state. How concerned should we all be at this point for this civil conflict? this conflict that that is that seems to have taken root in our families as you say not speaking to other people in our public discourse and in our political life. I think we should be deeply concerned and I think it is something that we all have a responsibility to not reward acts of political violence, not ingrandise them and and not allow it to take deeper root in our nation. You know, in addition to the attempt on my life and my family's lives after we had just concluded our Passover seder, we've had six different people arrested in the last six or seven months for making terroristic threats against me and my wife, >> against our family. And oftent times it's rooted in an attack on me because of how I worship. I have a like a split screen in my brain. I know that the incidents of political violence are rising. I know that the incidents of hate speech and hate crimes are rising, particularly against American Jews. I know that the rhetoric online and in our politics, the more angry it gets, the more it attacks someone because of what they look like or where they come from, who they love, who they pray to, the more it gets rewarded online, the more it gets rewarded with campaign donations, the more it gets rewarded, let's be honest, by political party structures. And yet the other side of my brain gets to be governor in the greatest place I think in this nation in the toughest swing state in the union. And as I go all across this Commonwealth, I am met by good, decent people who offer prayers to my family in ways that I don't worship, who invite me into their homes, who tell me what's inside of them, what's bothering them, what what they're excited about. I see a decency amongst the people that I get to be with every day that is completely disconnected from the reality of our politics, the reality of our social media platforms and the reality, you know, disconnected from the reality of the incentive structure in the world we live in every day of governing. And my hope is that the people teach the politicians a lesson. My hope is that the loudest, angriest voices, which make up the dark corners of the internet and some dark corners of our society are drowned out and not rewarded and not given a pass to. Too oftent times we have political leaders that will say things that go right up to a line of inciting violence, that will say things that go right up to a line of giving a pass to maybe a little violence against that person because that's what they believe or that's how they worship. We have to stop incentivizing that. We have to stop electing people that behave that way. And we have to stop allowing the discourse online to drive us further apart. instead take our cues from the people. >> I mean, you bring me to a really um interesting point because I've done a lot of work and and had a lot of conversations about this issue. And what most experts say is that it it is a top-down issue and not a bottom up issue. that our political leaders, our leaders full stop. Our our our media, our voices, um uh you know, all of the people in power, how they speak, what they do trickles down and influences and gives permission for others to behave in the ways that we're seeing. And I guess Governor Cox, as someone who has really thought about this deeply, you've just said we need to all as individuals do our part. But to Governor Shapiro's point, is it really not the top echelon in our government, in our media systems that really are the root of what we're seeing here? So I I mean I I'll push back a little bit because Well, let me agree first. Okay. Please. No, no, no. I I want to agree because because you're right in one sense that the the the research that that we participated in with the Stanford Depolarization Lab um showed that we we had we had governors actually film ads together, Republicans and Democrats, talking about how we could we could disagree without hating each other. Um and uh and that work we we formed a nonprofit called Disagree Better. They're still doing this work. They're producing ads right now with members of Congress. And what they found was that yes, um it it is very powerful and people respond to it. It has a significant depolarization effect when you see a Republican and a Democrat on a stage like this having a conversation like this. The people who watch this and they they um interviewed 3,000 people. They had 25 different video invent uh um interventions that they shared with people and uh and then they uh they were able to tell kind of their their feelings of of hatred, contempt, uh feelings of violence towards other parties decreased significantly. So absolutely elected leaders can have an impact on lowering the temperature and modeling the right behavior. And I I I've always believed and and this has been written about long before I was around that our politicians are a reflection of we the people. Like we get what we deserve in in this country and we get it good and hard. Um sometimes as as another expert said um and and so this this is Madisonian constitutional government at work, right? if if if we don't like it, then we'll vote for something else. And we are starting to see that. I I'm I'm just telling you, uh I I know I know y'all don't get to read a lot about the uh kind of Midwestern states and what happens in local politics out there, but just go Google what happened in Wyoming um this uh this past primary season where um the the most extreme voices all lost. There was a headline like the Wyoming massacre or something like that. It was people are >> nice friendly language, but yes. >> Yeah. The the the people people were responding to to that they're tired. I we we always talked about the silent majority, right? We're still here. Um I I refer to them as the exhausted majority. And there is a a market failure in both parties right now for sure. Some of that is structural. Some of it's the way we select our candidates where we we do reward the extremes. Certainly the algorithm-driven nature of uh of the internet of of social media, we're rewarding the loudest voices. You know, I come out and and just say normal stuff and that doesn't get any clicks. Um if I come out and say something crazy, then it goes viral and uh and people will see it. And and then what we do, right, is we say um I I I get to do this. this I get to say those Democrats, did you hear what they said because one person said this that's maybe in the the 1% extreme of the party and now I get to apply it to the the entire the entire party. And it happens both ways when when it turns out this is the other piece of data that I I just have to share. There's something called the perception gap which is really important in this conversation. If you interview a thousand Republicans and a thousand Democrats on the 20 most contentious issues right now and you plot out their answers on on a spectrum, what you will find is that the median Republican and the median Democrat are this far apart on the issues. Yes, there are meaningful differences, but we're not that far apart. Then if you ask Republicans what Democrats believe, what they think Democrats believe, and then you ask Democrats what they think Republicans believe, and you plot it out, we are this far apart. Why is that? Well, again, the very things I'm taking because we we assume the worst. We take the extremes of the party and we say that's what a normal Democrat or a normal Republican is. And it's just not true. And so um so so yes, we need more leaders to do this. Um, it would be incredibly helpful if we could do that. And somebody someday is uh is is going to run for president. And they're going to say, and it's not me, by the way. The I just want to be clear. It may be somebody in this room. It's not me. Um, Cox for president. We've made news tonight. I think an announcement's in the air. >> The very the very first line in the book is I am not running for president. So there I g I gave away the lead. Um, but but someone's going to run and make this an issue and and I I think the first party that figured this out is is going is going to win big. I I hope it's my party. Um I I really do. But if not, then, you know, we'll we'll see what happens. But that's how politics works. If if you don't like it, then then do something about it. And we do something about it by showing up and voting for candidates who who don't govern with contempt. Governor Shapiro, I want to take this out of the political realm just for a moment and talk about the people because according to a night foundation poll of 26,000 people, it was a pretty big poll. 54% of people today said they do not feel free to express their opinions. Right? And that's down almost 20 points in 10 years. Sorry, only 54%. Um, so that's down 20 points in 20 uh in in 10 years. So when we're thinking about this, what happens to democracy when people now are afraid to actually even engage in their democratic right to express themselves because they're worried about what will happen if they do. >> I think that's the ball game. You know, I I talked before about Ben Franklin and the work that was done 250 years ago, but the work really started here in Pennsylvania almost a hundred years before that in 1682 when another one of my predecessors stepped foot on the shores of what is now Chester, Pennsylvania, a guy named William Penn. And he set out to build a place that would be, as he called it, an example to the nations. and he spoke specifically about establishing a place for people to live that would be rooted in essentially three things. Freedom of religion, free elections, and free expression. Those ideals of free expression found their way up the street uh to Independence Hall and ultimately became our first amendment right of freedom to speech. I think it is important that we not just protect that freedom that was born here in Philadelphia, here in Pennsylvania, here in the place that William Penn founded, but I think it is also important that we arm people with the knowledge and the knowhow to engage in the acts of free speech. That is something that I think we should be concerned about today that we're not seeing that play out necessarily in our K to2 systems across the country in our higher ed systems across the country and talked to a number of higher ed leaders including a great one we have here tonight John Fry the president of Temple University we're thankful for the work that he does there but a big part of what Lori and I are working on here in Pennsylvania is ensuring ing that we are teaching young people facts. Teaching young people about digital literacy, how to see something online and know if it's factual, and not to teach them an opinion for them to then engage in free expression, but to actually have that foundation of fact and knowledge to form their own opinions and then be able to go out and engage in that conversation. If we can teach young people how to do that better, that's going to cure our politics in a generation from now. I think it is really important that we hold on to those values of free expression and also do the hard work necessary to educate our populace to teach them the tools they need to have this kind of dialogue that is going to be necessary to heal the ills of this country and move our nation forward. You know that at the foundation of all of this is a absolute collapse in trust, right? I mean there is in this country among young people particularly but pretty much across the board a real collapse in faith in institutions in faith in um a collective idea of what those facts may be. Uh a loss of faith in certainly the political class and our economic class. people don't believe anymore that they can actually get the truth and what they need from the systems that surround them. And so I'm wondering in our last few minutes if you can just talk about how we deal with that and what we need to do to get back to a place where we are not at risk of everything falling apart because we know that a house divided cannot stand. >> Well, um this is this is the existential crisis and and this is one of the things that really keeps me up at night. Um, by by the way, I'm just the 18th governor of Utah. I don't have a whole bunch of uh predecessors that I can So, I I just just going to throw that out there. Um, we there there's there's there's an institution out there um called the the Edelman Trust Barometer. And what what Edelman has done and uh I I met with Richard Edelman today in New York and and they they they look at trust in institutions all across the world, not just in the United States, but all across the world. And what they found is that yes, trust is declining significantly. Trust in government, but not just trust in government, trust in our um in corporations, in businesses, trust in nonprofits is falling. Um we we are losing trust. this uh media atmosphere, especially social media atmosphere, is incredibly damaging to what to all of this because um anybody can just say anything. You know, you don't have to have a fact checker, you don't have to have an editor, anyone can just say anything. And we are pretty vulnerable. We believe just just about anything. Several years ago, Edelman decided to define trust. And and what they what they said was trust is made up of two components. It's very simple. um to have trust in someone your your neighbor um your your governor your your religious institution there are two components. The first one is competency. Are you good at what you do? So if if if government isn't good at what they do, they're going to lose faith in it very quickly. If you don't get stuff done, um then then they're they're going to lose faith in government. The second one is ethical behavior, right? So are you good at what you do? And are you good at what you do? And are you a good human being? Are you a good person? Right? Those are the two things in everything. Think about it with again if if you hire somebody to babysit your kids um and they're um they're they're really a really nice person, but they're completely incompetent, you're you're not you're not going to hire that person, right? Conversely, they may be the best babysitter in the world, but they they steal money out of your purse, right? Also not going to not going to hire that person. So, this applies to all of us. And I think we have to think through that as government. First of all, are we delivering on the promises or not? And government, especially at the national level, has not done that. We have a dysfunctional Congress. Congress was always supposed to be the most powerful branch of government, not the president. It's it we should not have and be by the way the the the reason the reason the founders did this and this matters and this will I'll get to the end of the the answer here. The reason the founders did that was because because the original colonies were wildly different. All right. Um Georgia was very different from uh from from from you all. um different from uh from Virginia, different from Massachusetts, right? And and they knew that it would be hard. They want you had to build coalitions to get stuff done through Congress. Um what what they didn't want was um was a president who every four years someone different could come in and and completely do what whatever they wanted because this is dangerous. All right? Utah does not want to be like California. We really don't. We don't want to be like those guys. California, you do your crazy stuff and and just keep it there. Okay. Um and but also California doesn't want to be like Florida or or Utah. And and if if we >> I'm a Floridaian here. Nobody wants to be like Florida. Anyway, >> if if we believe that if Kla Harris is elected, the country the whole country has to be just like California because via executive order they can do whatever they want and all their wildest dreams will come true. then we're going to do everything possible to stop that from happening. Right? Here's the answer to all of this. The answer is we have to get more local. The one place where there still is more trust is at the hyper local level. There is still more trust in our neighborhoods. Um more trust for mayors than governors, more trust for mayors than presidents. Um and and I I believe that this is the answer. I I'll end here and and and let you have the last word. Um, Governor, we the in science there's been this search for the theory of everything, some unifying theory um that that connects all of the the different scientific theories. It may or may not exist, but but people are searching for it. I believe that there is a theory of everything when it comes to the social sciences. That all of our our problems in social science, homelessness, drug addiction, incarceration, upward mobility, um all of our biggest problems and and and the answer to that is community. Building up the institutions that bring us together. We're lonier than we've ever been before. Belonging and purpose are the most powerful forces on earth. And we lost belonging and purpose because because the institutions that brought us together have have mostly disappeared. People stopped going to church which was which was a huge one. Um the the volunteer organizations, Rotary clubs were were huge. Everybody belonged to something like that. Elk lodges and now we don't. So we we we don't have those close the people close to us where we serve together. And it doesn't matter if you're a Republican or a Democrat because we care. We're building up our neighborhoods and and we have to figure out how to bring that back. We don't have any real friends so we can hate the same people together on Facebook. And that is not good for any of us. We have to focus on community to build trust again. And I know we can do this. >> I agree. >> Okay, that's it. >> By the way, I have four minutes left. I agree. >> No, no, I've got I I >> I'll answer another question. I agree. And I would also say that um you know, you don't want to be like California. You want to be like other states. We Philadelphia 76ers fans don't want to be like Utah Jazz um basketball fans. Just go. >> We're very very comfortable being who we are. >> Yeah. You you just wait. Um >> no, that was that was a great answer and and he's right. I know that Bowling Alone, that Robert Putnham book was meaningful to you. It is meaningful to me. We have to find ways to build these centers of activity. Sometimes it's a religious institution. Sometimes it's a sports league. Sometimes it's a community or civic organization. We have to find our way back to those things. >> But how do you speak out? I know a lot of people feel passionately about many things and part of being involved in community is as we have been discussing to bring it back to the first amendment is expressing yourself. How do you express yourself and participate without adding fuel to that fire? >> So, you know, a few hours ago, I was at North Wales Elementary School in Montgomery County. Anybody from around there? Yeah. And um I was signing a new law mandating that we have 30 minutes of recess every day for schools in Pennsylvania because I believe that what those kids are learning on the playground arguably more important than what they're learning in math or science or English class. They got to sort stuff out and they got to learn it on the playground. And after I signed the the law and the kids went out to recess and you know talking to some teachers, one of the teachers came over to me and she said, "Governor, I'd like to show you um a a sensory wall that I built for our IDA community here at the school." And she walked me over to it to show me this pride in this sort of this mosaic that she built. She had each of the kids make different tiles. It was really, really beautiful. And you know, obviously kids with autism there have a quiet place to settle and do their do their thing. And she quietly came over to cidled over to me and she said, "I want to tell you why I did this. It feels to me like the world is out of control. I'm so angry about what I'm seeing happen in Washington DC, but I felt like I could control this here at my school. I felt that I could do something in my community to help these kids. I felt that there was a way I could bring other parents into this exercise of here building community for a wonderful group of kids that need more love and need more attention and need more support in their lives. She started local. She set an example and she built something that is going to be there for a whole long time. not just to help these wonderful kids out, but also as a monument to what is possible when we ignore a lot of the noise and we focus on building up the community around us and doing good in our neighborhood. That is a very um that's a very beautiful and uplifting message. Um, I am of course the resident pessimist as a journalist, but I do want to just end with this brief question, which is we've talked about what you admire about each other. Um, now I'm not going to say what do you hate about each other. >> I said I was a pessimist. I'm not I'm not ugly. I'm not going to end it with that. >> Good here, >> man. When we talk the NBA, this guy's insufferable. I mean, now that now that LeBron's here and Jaylen Brown, >> I do talk a lot of trash to Governor. >> He does. He does. >> But if you had one one piece of advice, one small thing that you would say, "All right, this this is going to make things better. This is the one thing that you can do right now." Um, what would you what would you each say? one small thing that we can take away from this, >> what what we would say to the other person or to the people who are >> well to to the other person but also to you know to to the people here. What what what could we what could we each do because we can all be better all the time. >> Oh boy. I hope that our politics can come through this moment and heal itself by listening to the people, by elevating people to positions of power that reflect the decency and goodness of the American people. And I would say to my friend, Governor Cox, he sits in a unique position within the Republican party to help heal it and to help bring our country together. And what I would say to him is I hope he recognizes the power that he has from the perch that he occupies and the respect that you've earned across the country and you use that power to help heal our politics and bring us closer together. Um, so, so what what I would say to to all of you tonight is again just thank you for this opportunity. I I mean, it's uh, you know, I I'm still not sure what I'm doing here, but I'm I'm really grateful uh to to to be here with you tonight. I never thought, you know, growing up in a on a small farm in the middle of of nowhere, Utah, that that I'd ever have an opportunity like this. But, um, that's that's the American dream. And and I guess I guess what I would just say um again to to my friend here and and I I know you're already doing this, but to all of us tonight is like don't don't give up on on the idea of America. We uh maybe just a quick story that that just to illustrate this. So, my my great great great-grandparents uh they they were living in Illinois um back in 1846 and uh they were practicing their religion. come from the Mormon faith and uh some some local people didn't like that and uh they they showed up and they burned down my um they burned down their house and forced them out and uh the their everybody of their faith they they loaded their wagons and they they moved across the west to uh to to Utah to the Utah territory. Um it was not American territory at the time. It was uh it was Mexican territory at the time. So they they literally got driven out of their country because they couldn't practice their their religion. That first amendment that we talked about, they guaranteed them the freedom to practice religion. Uh it failed them. Failed them completely. They they they drive into the Salt Lake Valley and he he was a carpenter, uh a blacksmith, and he was asked to go out and and and and cut down some timber to start building houses. They had nowhere to live. So here they are on the frontier. He gets kind of lost in his thoughts. Um, and he uh he cuts down this giant tree and he brings it down and he stands it up in the middle of the the little town square that they were trying to build. And the first thing they did was they raised the American flag. the country that had failed them. They had every right to be incensed, angry, hateful, vengeful, contemptful, and and instead they they still believed in those words, in that constitution. I'm worried that too many people are giving up and just saying, "I'm out." Um, please please don't give up on the idea of America. Governor Cox, Governor Shapiro, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.