The Easier Way to Reach Your Goals | Jia Jiang | The Art of Charm

There's not something wrong with you. A lot of people have this feeling like I should do this. I should do that. Like you're you're shooting yourself. You're shooting yourself to death. I should do this. I should do that. Then because I should do this, if I'm not doing exactly that and then I am not a useful person, right? There's something wrong with me. We're all built differently. Every person is extremely unique based on what we like. What I would say is try to find the most the things you like the most that will get you closer to your goal and then just do that over and over again. Do that. Make that foundation of your achievement journey. Not the things that you don't want to do but but you should do because you will never get there. [music] >> [music] >> Welcome to the show, Jaws. It's great to have you. >> Awesome. Good to be here. Nia and Johnny, >> I'd love to just jump in and break down what easy discipline is because I feel a lot of our listeners are huge fans of traditional discipline, pushing hard, working through pain, suffering, building grit. What do you mean by easy discipline and how can we use that to our advantage? Yeah, as you mentioned AJ, traditional discipline is all about grinding, right? Going beyond yourself and pushing the boundaries. I think there's some truth to it, but the thing is it's just like physics like you're going against um gravity because you're human nature for a long term. We want pleasure. We want to do fun things. We want to be able to do things easy. That's why you see some of the biggest technology companies, they deliver things to you to make your life easy. Now the traditional disciplines going against that gravity, going against physics, a human nature to be like I can forever just push harder. But easy discipline is the opposite. It's a system or a mindset and system that make you go with your human nature. So instead of constantly trying to be like I'm going to do things I do want to do because it's good for me you do things that you want to do that's fun for you that's more artistic for you that that that make you get pleasure and you but by doing that thing you actually you're actually working hard so easy discipline is a way for you to achieve discipline with uh with your human nature and through through easy system. So that's a long answer. I should uh rehearsed that better. [laughter] >> Well, I think many of our listeners feel that that might be a struggle for them because they've tied so much of their self-worth to their ambition and then that identity of having grit and powering through. And even on social media, when we think about the videos we watch, the content we consume, a lot of it is about, oh, I worked harder than everyone else. I ran an ultramarathon. I push beyond my limits and that's the message that we get constantly reinforced as well. So then hearing this view of discipline feels just counter to what I've built my identity around and and what I value. >> I mean that's a problem isn't it? We glorify uh this hardworking. We think hard results should be also feel hard. We should through ambition somehow require us to sacrifice in the way that we hate ourselves in the way. Right? So that's why you see in the late 2010s and and and you see a lot of uh uh Navy Seals writing books about how they're pushing themselves and you know what what had like what has it done right for the past 10 years if you look at statistics we at the beginning of the new year we're like we're fired up we're going to do things it's going to be a different year end up 9% of the total population keep their new year resolutions no matter how motivated you are at the beginning at the end you just fall off because you are going against your human nature over the long term. Human nature wins. So um that's that's why I want to be like let's reverse that. Let's have your human nature to go with you and you can roll downhill and to in a way that you don't stop. So if if you if you someone if if someone tells you I achieve all these things because I work harder than everyone else. I can tolerate pain more than everyone else. innately we feel that's awesome. We feel like that's you know that guy or that gal is like a super person. But if that person tells you I'm doing work I can't stop. I just having so much I I I just work a lot and because I I feel like there's I'm having a great time. You you think that person has problems. you're like, "Hey, go see a therapist." You know, but the thing is that's a pro. But the thing is, if you look at the people who achieve real long-term success, just look at the people in the industry, right? The people who change industry um at the top of their field, you ask them how hard are you working? Are you here because you work harder than everyone else or because you are achieving, you are having a great time, you are living? They will all tell you, right? They love their work. They'll all tell you they don't want to stop. They can't stop if they force them to. So that's the type of discipline I'm helping people to achieve. We all have that urge to just tap into our willpower. And we see these examples of people who appear to have limitless willpower, pushing through injuries to run races, outworking their competition, talking about how hard it is and to achieve what they're after. And then we turn that around and judge ourselves for not having that willpower, for not being able to show up for these goals that we value so much. So, how can we shift that perspective to start to think about willpower as a finite resource and not something that we need to beat ourselves up over, but recognize there's another path? Yeah, that's why I uh I wrote this my new book and I for a long time I for a long time ever since I came to America you know I came to America 116 I was in that former camp I want I started the first book I read was or these self-help books you know and talk about how to toughen yourself up for a long time I had this ambition I wanted to do that like every year every day I would have plans and I falling into just overcome and over and over again I just felt straight up just on my face you know I I fix planned in all different ways just and I started just hating myself you know honestly just because I I couldn't do it but then I started thinking what do I like to do you know what is the thing that man [clears throat] if I just sit there I will do naturally okay other than all the entertainment all the like the video games and stuff like that like even even with that I learned a lot about myself I learned that hey I uh I'm someone who love to write I'm someone who actually responds to this type of a you know innate you know artistic expression then what if I can just do that what if I can actually use that as a strength and do things I like and then so that's really the enjoyment part the easy part so I I talk about there are different ways you can make you like things more right. You can like you can you can light things more gify it you know and and uh and put in little momentum every day you can uh and then make you go forward and then the next is a like I said easy right I'm be artistic meaning before I saw the world as a goal trying a goal I'm trying to conquer I have this goal I'm going to go every day to uh to achieve it but then I I start forgetting about that goal. Don't worry about that goal because when you think about that goal, you're you're still very far away from that goal. You you know and sometimes if you're are not moving forward toward it, you feel like very the your gap is not getting closer. You feel discouraged. But what if I instead of thinking about the long-term goal, I try to be think about just be present. I think about how do I be the best of the day. I stick I think about how to actually take every moment I see every moment I do and make art out of it. That's really the you know I see this moment between you and me this between us that's a moment that will not be replicated even though we might see each other again someday in a convention or maybe at the grocery store but I but I'm never going to replicate this moment. What if I just be the best self? So in this way I didn't think about how to have a great u interview with you. I just think about how to have this great conversation with you at this moment. So those are the first two things I do you know make things fun make things you know uh enjoyable. Then nextly how to make things artistic think in a artist mindset with everyday move. So those are the first my go-to moves. >> You brought up some very important points. I mean, for a lot of our listeners, I'm sure a lot of them are thinking, "Well, that's just great if you like what you do." [laughter] However, um, one of the first things that we do with all of our clients is get them aligned with their core values, the things that are important to them, the things that make that give them meaning in this world. And for a lot of them, they don't understand how that works. Well, you just you just brought up a very big point. When you turn everything into something of of work, of art, well, then there's a core value tied to that of perhaps creativity. And for those people who don't have that, they have to look deep within themselves to find a different core value that uh that aligns with finding some sort of enjoyment or fulfillment in the task they are doing. I'm now 52 and have been an entrepreneur for the last 20 years, which means I have I have had to reinvent myself [clears throat] and learn new skills multiple times over those two decades. And there would have been no way I would have been able to do that without having an understanding what my core values were to get me through all of the bits of learning that suck to get to a point where I'm now enjoying things. You mentioned a point about core value, right? I'll share a story with you. I met Bill Gates when I was six when I was 14. He came to China to promote Windows, the first uh the the the the in the coolest guy in the world. I thought I'd be like that's my guy. I want to be like him. Okay. Probably not. Probably not nowadays. Okay. He's not on in the news for the wrong reasons. But back then he was really cool. You just have to trust me. And when I saw him, it's like that I want to be the Chinese version of Build Base. That goal drove me to come to America to get to to take a computer science degree in college to get jobs and start companies. That goal drove me so much and almost I mean drove me to the ground. I mean it did take me through the tough times I I had but also it drove me to the ground because later on I found huh actually the idea of wanting to be a Bill Gates wanted to be a billionaire and the the actually the thing that are doing that take you to to get you there aren't the same the things are about you got to hire you got to fire you got to build product and stuff I can I can be pretty good at I read so books like I I listen to all the podcasts in the startup world. I go to I went to all the conventions, all the conferences to learn everything possible. But then one day, you know, the pandemic hit and the um uh you know, everyone got depressed for a bit because you're also really isolated and to feel better. I'm just like I'm going to write just to feel better. And then I just wrote more and more and more. I just feel like ah I feel better and better. Then I look look back like I I'm a writer actually. I didn't know that about myself. I thought I was bull. I thought I'm on this past or just grind myself into this glory. As it turned out inside me, I'm a writer. So I started writing and that completely turned my life around. I became so much happier and I became really good at writing. I landed the pool the two book deals, you know, with major publishers. I become a speaker, the one of the only speakers of East Asian descent, you know, and and I go do public speaking. All of that because I actually found out what I like and instead of fighting that, instead of saying, "No, I'm going to be I'm going to be this entrepreneur someday. I'm going to ring the bell and ask that whatever, right?" But now I'm like, I'm actually doing things that I enjoy that's in inner alignment of who I am. That takes a long time to actually listen to yourself to to figure yourself out instead of just keep suppressing it because you want to achieve an external goal. >> Yeah. And there's an internal battle that goes on and for you to actualize that. And that internal battle needs to be embraced as difficult as it may be and for the people around you while you're going through it. [laughter] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the first signals many of our listeners are facing is procrastination. So we've identified, hey, I want to be Bill Gates. I I want to be the next president. I want to be a Nobel Prizewinning scientist and I'm going to study hard. I'm going to get the advanced degrees. I'm going to follow the path of the people that I idolize, that I look up to. And then you start that journey. And it's hard. It's not easy to achieve these great levels to become famous enough that you are sought after by other people. And then I don't want to do this today. This doesn't feel good. This is uncomfortable. >> You know, I don't want to go to these conferences. I don't have a company. I don't have an idea yet, but I want to be a startup founder. And we start to procrastinate and do things for pleasure that don't move us to our goals. What is that procrastination signal? under the guise of easy discipline. How should we be looking at procrastination? >> I'll give you u a personal example, right? A lot of times when you're procrastinating, what is happening is you are fighting against a feeling. The feeling is you are doing something that you should be doing, but when you do it, you're like, "Oh, this sucks." Right? And I'm like, okay, when that feeling is not good, what you what you do is, hm, all right, let me feel better. Let me feel better about doing something that I actually like to do. Let me do something that that distracts me. And that usually comes in a way of maybe scroll, you know, you you know, you scroll on your phone, you watch you watch stuff and and then then time pass. Now what? You feel worse. You're like, "Oh, shoot. I just wasted two hours. Instead of working to my goal, I have wasted two hours on this dis that's pleasurable. Okay, what do I do? Let me get back to work. Okay, work hard. And guess what? You feel even worse this time because not only you're filing the same task that makes you that brings you no pleasure. Added the feeling that you just wasted 2 hours. Now guess what? This feeling is even worse. What do you do? Oh my gosh. Let me distract myself a little more. Let me do a little bit more dream scrolling. So you have this loop of feeling bad and get distracted uh loop. That's why people procrastinate. What I tell people to do is is there ways how about you number one thing you find is can I make the thing that I want to do can I make it fun? Can I make it crazy fun? Can I make it something that I I just like oh what is possible? I'll give you an example. I I actually became I become I became known because I did this thing called 100 days of rejection therapy. I did this over 10 years ago on YouTube. >> I remember that. >> Uh yeah. So I started out by thinking, you know, I was afraid I was doing this entrepreneur thing, you know, grinding through, right? And then I was like and I got I got rejected with the investment. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm I feel quit. This sucks." And uh but then I'm like I'm so afraid of rejection, I should be overcoming my fear of rejection. Maybe I should have some fun with rejection. How about instead of running away from rejection, let me go look for rejection once per day for every day for 100 days. You know, I started out by asking $100 from a stranger. And then later I then the next day could get a burger refill. The next day I try to get a like Olympic try to get an Olympic donuts. get a try to get a box bonus that look like Olympic rings just by asking what end up happening is extremely counterintuitive because this no one likes rejection. I didn't like rejection, but 100 days of rejection therapy, the idea of me looking for rejection and filming myself then putting on YouTube was fun, right? It was pleasurable. But because I did that and that was and I I couldn't stop doing, you know, I come in with the idea of I'm going to make art. I'm going to have fun this today. I'm going to talk to that person and see what happens. this thing people sometimes people like you couldn't pay people to do this but I do it by on purpose because it was fun and so I did it not it it just blew up my that was the that my um YouTube channel blew up and I got millions of views of people I don't do YouTube anymore but for that period I had a lot of fun um so by letting fun by letting this curiosity drive me I opened up a whole door of possibilities I didn't know that thing could exist You know, I didn't know what, you know, YouTube channel was. I didn't know that other people are also afraid of rejection and they're living their fears through my eyes. It becomes therapeutic for people. It changed my opened all kind of doors. Open changed my career. Oh, I did that because I turned something that was hard, that was grinding into something that was fun into something that I want to do, I'm curious to do. And the results was amazing. So I advise all the all the u listeners that if you feel like man you're up against it and and today right you're you feel like you're you have do something you don't want to do and if that feeling repeats over and over again don't try to fight it every day if you do it you're going to start failing you're going to start hating yourself you lose confidence you think there's something wrong with you no try to find the fun the thing that intrigues you and then Try to use your own curiosity to see what if I do this, you know, what if you're a salesperson, you know, instead of writing code sales pitches and you're like, "Oh man, this sucks." Or maybe give it to AI or whatever, right? You'll be like, "What if I camp some ride? What if I do something that always intrigue me? What if I write a a love letter to a stranger and I don't know like I'm not a saleserson, but think about the things that that intrigues you or that makes that make it fun. Try that. those things might open doors and you can find a different person inside you. >> I I think one area that many of us find procrastination comes up going along with your New Year's resolution is is working out, exercising, going to the gym. We know we want to be healthier. Maybe we want to lose a couple extra pounds. Maybe we got some bad news from the doctor that we want to change our health trajectory or we're just thinking about longevity and we want to live longer. But that procrastination of getting to the gym and actually sweating and doing the hard stuff can feel like pushing a boulder up a hill. So what do you say to that person who's facing that procrastination to make it fun? How can we reorient ourselves to break through? >> I'm going to use the exact that example because I changed my life. Like I um in my early 30s I was diagnosed was hypertension. You know that's very early for somebody in their 30s to get high blood pressure, right? And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, if I don't control this, I'm going to be in trouble. So, I need to start exercising." So, uh, and so I mean, but I don't want to go to gym. This idea of me going to the gym, driving there every day, just just driving. I bought gym. I bought like two years worth of gym membership pretty much. I used pretty much I went there a couple times like, "Ah, you know what? I'll go the next day and then never go." And they just spend the money. That's how gym make money. I'm like, okay, what if my biggest friction is for me to drive to the gym? What if I just live at home? Like, what if I just do also instead of my I feel like my biggest friction point that I procrastination is me changing my clothes and go to the gym and sitting there deciding what to do. All right, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and what do I do? So I found I found I I I started just looking for things that be like you tell me what to do instead of me doing it instead of me trying to figure out uh what to do. So I did P90X that really changed my life. I'm sure a lot of you have heard that. The reason is that simple. You know P90X did Tony Horton, this great trainer, he tells you what to do. He's funny, right? You just do what he does and you don't have to even think about it. And guess what? I got addicted to doing that. So I started doing that. I I I followed to Cordon and later I did uh uh this woman called Caroline Gervin. Uh she's amazing. Um there's this Irish woman and and now it it I can't stop working out and also I bet I I s I also bought a palaton you know and because it's at home I don't have to go out and I'm just in my you know I just in my workout room I did palon at one day the next day I do weight training with uh with with Caroline uh on on YouTube she's on YouTube by the way and I I just do this every day and the thing and then I started adding things that I want to do into this, right? So when writing Pelaton, I watch TV, right? I just watch TV, I ride a Pelaton and and but when I do when I do a workout, I listen to podcast, I listen to a few episodes of yours, you know, just just doing workout. Uh and and so I now I reduced all the fictions that was holding me back, this procrastination. And then I added a sugar. Oh, actually not sugar. Don't do sugar. Put the sugar. really sugar in real workout. But I added mental sugar into my workout. Now every day I I came every day. This this is my stable. Every time every day I get I got up I do workout. I had a lot of fun and I just actually just did that before I came to this report. So remove all the frictions you have all those things that you want don't want to do. Try to do if you can do it at home do it at home. Um if you don't that's fine. Go to gym but remove the things you hate. And then also add fun. You know this thing this idea of called habit st this idea of kind of habits uh stacking. Add the things you want to do to the things you don't want to do. You feel this hard and together they are a nice meeting. >> Well I think many of us have heard discipline is pain and what you're talking about is being that discipline to show up and do it again and again. That's painful. And now I'm as the pleasure- seeeking side of me, it's like, but I don't even want to get started in something so painful. And how should we look at discipline now? Recognizing that, hey, hard discipline might not be the way for me. And that might be taking me off course. Yeah, absolutely. First of all, the biggest mindset shift is there's not something wrong with you. Okay. A lot of people have this feeling like if I'm not doing the things I'm supposed to do, right? I should do this, I should do that. Like you're you're shooting yourself. You're shooting yourself to death. I should do this or should do that. Then because I should do this, if I'm not doing exactly that and then I am not a useful person, right? There's something wrong with me. There's not like we're all built differently. There are things that we that I like that you don't. There's there just every person is extremely unique based on what we like. What I would say is try to find the most the things you like the most that will get you closer to your goal. All right? And then just do that over and over again. Do that. Make that foundation of your achievement journey. Not the things that you don't want to do but but you should do because you will never get there. Do the thing you want to do and do that again again and again and then you can start adding other on top of it but always have that core action. You know for me is I love to write and love to speak. So I write every day that becomes a core action right for you. I don't know like if if you know you're in the in you're in a corporate world if if you're a people person if conversation with people making connection that's your core thing make that your foundation. Talk to people every day. Every day. And and and and gain energy from it and religiously every day talk to people. Network. Talk to people. Build relationships. Talk to people. influence. If you like to teach, right, and every day think about how you can teach something to someone. And if you like to write every day, make that your core, right? If you find that your core and just do that thing and make make no apologies about it. There's nothing wrong with going crazy on your the things that you love. >> Well, I think what I'm I'm hearing that I'm sure a lot of listeners are are saying, "Okay, well, repetition. I just got to do repetition to arrive at mastery. And then we burn ourselves out through that repetition. We we feel bored. We feel like we've struggled to do the same thing day in and day out. And it's counter to what you're saying around creativity. I I I'm starting to understand I want to be creative. But I've been told to master something, I got to do it 10,000 hours. I got to do the same thing day in and day out to reach that level of mastery. >> Yeah. That's the biggest uh probably the the most useful and most damaging thing all at the same time. This idea of Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours, right? A lot of people think 10,000 hours, man, I can I can't even do one hour. Like 5 minutes later, I'm gone. So, how can I do 10,000 hours, right? So, when you think about repetition, I I in my book, I talk about this tool called a repetition with variation, right? I do this every day but differently. So every day I create a different scenario. So um I use this uh story of uh you know this guy uh is if you're if you're a sports fan you know this uh if you're NBA fan you've heard of him. He's the coach of the Boston Celtics. His name is Joe Mazula. So what happens is he's got a really talented team, right? But his team could never get over the hump. He could never to win their championship. They were in the in the final four of the NBA for like years, but they could never win the big one. That was because when things get really tough, they mentally break down. They get out of their comfort zone. So, the first thing he became the coach is like, how do I get these people out of their comfort zone every day? How how can they become more resilient in different situations, right, when things get tough? So he started this idea that every day his um practice is different every day. He he events a scenario for his players every day. So one practice he would have people just you cannot dribble the ball. That's why you have to dribble, right? No. Nope. Today's game you can't dribble. You can only pass and shoot. Now that involves everyone moving and practicing. The next day he's like okay today we're going to do football. Basically everyone hackers each other, right? the the the defense will be like, you know, very physical and you can't get mad, right? And then there's another day it's like uh you play he would play Simpson, he would play Mozart in the background and then now you're I don't know being a like making music and and making art play basketball. So he would change up these things every day and do a different scenario, right? He's doing practice. That's all practice but there's repetition with a variation and I started using this with my own uh my own work right every day when I write I for example I started adopting a different character today like if I'm if I'm getting bored with my writing right like okay today I'm this guy tomorrow I'm I'm a little bit melancholy and think of you I'm kind of reflecting on life the next day I'm the best joke writer ever I'm just going to write jokes. I'm having a great time. The next day I'm become this inspiration guy. I become this like here's what I'm going to teach you. The next day I'm a coach. I'm a personal just being oneon-one. I'm speaking to your heart and I start changing things up for every day I do. And it's so much fun. So this tool um whatever you do, try to come up with a different scenario every day and that that makes your goal fun. Yeah, I love that idea because I feel even for myself, some of the things that I enjoyed the most have naturally built that variation in. So Johnny knows I love cooking and part of what I love about cooking is not cooking the same dish like him every single day, day in and day out. Burnt chickens and vegetables. I like trying to learn different cuisines and different techniques. And through that variation, I've been able to consistently be cooking for our family day in and day out without feeling like, oh, this is drudgery. This is hard work. This takes discipline for me to home cook every meal. So that variation has naturally been there for me. And I think for many in our audience, if you think about the things you've stuck with, there has been a level of variation. Whether it's playing new styles of music or watching different types of exercise or trying different activities to work on your mobility or your strength, mixing it up. I think that variety actually creates the sustainability to get to your goals 100%. That's why I I I think when it come came to the home gym uh you know revolution right in the 20 early in early late 2000s early 2010s right I I I would think P90X was actually a big breakthrough and I learned a lot about you know uh workout because he you know they would start doing something different every day now it's very normal you go on YouTube there are different programs that people do it but the trick is you don't do the same you do a different work and Even you work on the same muscle groups, the next work is always different. You always you always change it. This way you keep yourself engaged. You keep yourself fun and this otherwise you do the same thing over and over that becomes drive very quickly. For another aspect of that, it is the at least the for myself the the parts that I am not excited about, I make them routine so that I'm just doing I'm they're part of what I'm doing every day. So, it's going to get done. But then uh within that routine, I try to find the one little kernel that gives me some satisfaction. And that is where I get to create that. That little piece is where I get to have fun. Where the the everything around it is just routine. It's just happening. It's going to happen regardless. Even if I'm having a bad day, it's going to get done because I have built a routine around that. But on the days that I'm excited, I'm focused on that one little thing that I get to enjoy within that routine and process. And that helps that helps in certainly in learning new things because when you're learning everything is new and so there's so much failure going on around every aspect of it. So, the routine part allows you to slowly get better at one little new piece every day while enjoying that one little kernel that's wrapped inside of it that you that you get satisfaction from. >> When I first came to America, right, uh I was a 16 year old. I didn't speak a word of English and I I learn I mean I can say hi. I can say thank you and that's pretty much it. I say okay. Okay, I know I know how to I knew how to say okay. And I was the culture exchange student, right? And then I went to rural Louisiana of all places, my whole and uh the way people speak there is a little bit different than than everywhere else. So uh and and the social isolation and the idea of learning English was just overwhelming. It was overwhelming the culture shock and everything that that that the school work. So I for for for for the first two months were just miserable because I couldn't talk to anyone and I was bad. I'm just constantly beating myself up like why can't I speak like that person so I so I thought about maybe I should go home you know maybe I should this is not for me then I talked to my uncle he's a great he he's he is a great um also come from China but he became a very well-known lawyer and he speaks impeccable English so he taught me saying instead of doing all the things that that you think you should do and the idea that you got speak, you got to write, you got to do grammar. How about you try to find one thing that you like? You do you develop a routine on that? And I I was like, okay, what is that one thing? So, I develop a routine of me writing every day. I will go through a day and I see a lot of words I don't understand, right? I would write down every word that I that I don't understand and put them in this write on the on a index card. Then I run a you know I write definition on the back index the the words on the top and I put them random pile right every day I will put out 15 of them and I I learn the word and also I try to have a conversation I have to use that word uh in that conversation and some of these words are tough you know and and then like you know gang a gang say like I learned that word I'm like what the it's tough to use that word and people are like what's wrong with you right but there are words are pretty easy and that was actually fun. So I I help I was I look forward to that one thing every day. When I was happy, I did that one thing. I I did that that index card and and when I was sick, I did that. When I was sad, I did that. And that become my my foundation every day. And that was repetition was variation because every day I got try different things. I started just having conversations and that became my English blew up and I you know I I started writing better and now I'm I do I'm a professional speaker right of course I still speak with a with an accent but it's fine this is who I am this is like you know actually my trademark so people pay me a lot of money for to hear me talk now and that was all because I found that one thing I like and build a routine over that. Well, what it sounds like you did is you built momentum. And I think for many of us, the challenge with a lot of these big goals that we set for ourselves is we fail and then we stop. And then the longer we stop, the harder it is to start again. And then the gym clothes are collecting dust. The guitar hasn't been picked up in months. You haven't gone out of your house and tried to speak to new people. And you've avoided that rejection because, well, I stopped. And the cost of getting started again just gets increasingly more difficult. the longer you stop. So, how can we create momentum where the stopping is out of the equation and actually feels like we're moving towards our goals consistently? Because that start stop is what breaks for so many of us, even our coaching clients who are like, "Oh, I I want to be more social. I want to have better relationships, but I didn't feel like reaching out today. Oh, I it was easier for me to watch Netflix, or I didn't really want to go on that date because I have a lot of work at home, so it's easy for me to cancel last minute." And that cost of start stop keeps us from the action that makes things fun that actually moves us forward. >> Yeah. You you you mentioned momentum, right? A lot of what I write uh is about is based on physics, you know. I'm I'm actually like a big physics guy. When I see physics, it doesn't mean like, you know, the hardcore physics. I see like it's like a it's like a like like Newton's law, right? If something does is not moving, it's hard to get started. But once things start to get moving faster and faster, it's hard for that thing to stop. How can I get moving a way that's hard for me to stop? Is actually by doing this thing with variation, but also added momentum. So I um I started finding out like when I did 100 days of rejection therapy, right? Every day I would go out and do something and I people will tell me, "Jo, you're so brave by asking stuff uh to strangers." I'm like, "I can't stop. This is so much fun." Why? Because I will learn what I did that day, right? That what that person tells me what you know what is my interaction was I would write it down. I would write what is what what what did I learn that day and I would next day I would apply that very skill um you know that very observation the next day and then I gain a little bit more knowledge that day so that I add it again. So every day I became a better like a communicator. I become a better negotiator and that just start I just start catching momentum. By the end I became so good. I could ask anything from anyone anywhere. I felt I was have the capable because of this this knowledge momentum. All right. Momentum can be knowledge and momentum can also be the things that you do. So a lot of the people I know they would um you know whether they they write uh or rather they write you know they do outreaches to sales people or they do corporate outreaches right sometimes you have to write someone email when they're not expecting you right and you pitch them something or you ask them to do something it could be sales could be corporate world most people when they write something they just write right they write and and they get ghosted They're like, "Huh, okay." Then there's like, "Hey, just want to bring this to your attention. Just want to then no one says anything. Just want to follow up, right?" Then after three times, you feel like, "Ah, man, this is a this is a I'm I'm heading to a dead end. You know, I'm getting ghosted." But what if you start adding momentum to this conversation, to this emails? And this is what I do now. When I reach out to people, I reach out to people the first time, right? I ask people and hopefully they respond. If they don't, I the next time I never follow up with them. I never be like, "Can you do this?" I always added something. I was like, "Hey, I did this and I found out this insight I want to share with you." Right? Then I forward to that the the initial emails. Now my next this one has a little bit momentum. If they don't respond again, the next time I'll add again and I say, "Hey, I found this about you." You know, I found this about your company. I found this about your team. So now I had I did three things that has momentum even though the other person hasn't responded yet. And you know what the salespeople who actually do this instead of trying to buy other people over and over again but they try to add momentum and value to every outreach they make three to four times. They are the people who get the sales because because other person feels like oh there's something new. Momentum it works in physics. It also works in your habits, your your tasks. It works in everything. So I would I try to create this thing called momentum loop in everything I do. >> So how should we be approaching those first three assets, those first three moves to jump start the momentum. >> Yeah. Get your uh get yourself ready. You know what I'm saying? So like I I I like the example is u you know in writing people emails right think about the different things you can talk to to to to to that people right add a little bit of variation every time you do um if you are thinking about uh if you're thinking about doing something right if you if you think about I'm going to learn something always add what you're doing today based on yesterday right always added that that that added knowledge to what you do. If you're thinking about uh writing uh writing blogs or or you always you add you make your what you're writing a for progress. You tell a story based on what happened yesterday. You you you based on what you wrote yesterday. So now everything you do is added on and that creates momentum on its own. So looking at those in our audience now who are recognizing I have these big ambitious goals. I don't have any momentum. I feel stuck. And in a lot of ways I'm not finding fun in any of it. But I have bills to pay. I can't just start creative writing. I got to show up to work. I got spreadsheets I have to crunch. I have patients I have to talk to. I got a business to build. How do we handle that tension and that duality where the stuff that actually pays our bills isn't fun, doesn't feel fun. The fun has been taken from us through the act of having to do that work. The the thing that pays your bills is not a task. It's the value that task brings. Okay? So, a lot of people think that we have to do this particular thing to be able to get paid. you people who get paid the most are the thing that are the people who do their thing but bring the most value. Now what you want to try to find is how can I bring the value I'm bringing in or even a lot more based on things that can be different. I'll give you an example. Okay. Um I work with a lot of tech workers and in in the valley I live in Northern California. I live in Silicon Valley. A lot of tech workers are very anxious now nowadays because they they feel their work is going to be taken over by AI. So a lot of people are even writing building this thing and they feel like man I'm writing I'm I'm working myself out of job because everything I do you know is recorded in AI. Sometimes AI would do it and I'll be out of job. Someone is so sure I have have two people told me that I'm going to lose my job by the end of this year. I know that for sure. I know that this because it's coming and and this I I should move to a different country. You just see this drudgery coming, right? So I was like what if you change your mindset instead of fearing it instead of h how about you just having fun like you never know what's going to happen tomorrow with uh AI or whatnot instead of having this drudgery what if you change your mindset to say how about I do the most AI how about I make this on my company AI ready AI ready how about I become the AI expert how about if I try to say uh you know say how can we make AI the most added value for myself, for my team or for everyone. If you change that mindset, right, you started creating moment, you start seeing things a different way. You start seeing things as a task you have to do. Then what you end up doing is you're going to bring the way more value by being in that role than this confined role you give to yourself. Don't be task oriented, right? Think like an artist. An artist would see everything that happens in the day, every day, everything, even failures, even potential threats. Those are your your potential ingredients to make art, right? Those are your ingredients to actually to to create something that was not there. Having that mindset shift can actually make you do [clears throat] things differently and see things differently and feel differently. In the end, how you feel about things determines whether you do them, how well you do them. >> Well, what strikes me in all this is many of us fear failure. We fear rejection. And that fear stops us from taking the actions that can even create the fun, that can create the momentum that can open up this new perspective and new way of thinking about ourselves and shift our identity. So to those in our audience who've felt overcome by that fear of rejection from talking to someone new, sending that cold outreach, connecting with someone they don't know on LinkedIn, stepping outside of their comfort zone, or the fear of failing, like picking up the guitar and and not playing a single note, opening up your notebook and saying, "I want to write today." And and not being able to put pen to paper and create anything. What do you say to them to help them overcome that fear? Because that fear keeps us from the action that creates the momentum and opens the doors to fun. >> People have fear of failure and rejection because what they focus on is the perceived success. It's the perceived acceptance. They think that's what where opportunity lies, right? If someone says yes to me or I get to do what I want to do, that's I made it, right? What if you change that mindset? What if you're like what if the failure itself whatever okay failure success whatever happens next is the opportunity what if I just lean into that rather than having to get from A to B this perceived outcome for example there's this famous uh uh Jam Chu right he's a famous director he uh he's the director for you know uh for for Wicked you know the the you I'm sure if you watch the movie uh I think they won the Oscars last year I think. I I could be wrong, but he he became famous. he came to know he became famous uh in this uh movie uh Crazy Rich Asians back in 2016 when he it was the first movie that's like all Asian cast and he wanted to write um uh use the song Yellow at the end of the the the movie and uh and so uh and the yellow that mean it was um by Coldplay right so he was like hey Coldplay can I use your song at the end of my movie. They're like, "No, we don't want to turn our son into a slur, right? There's a lot of racial uh, you know, stereotype. We don't want to use that word for that particular movie." That's a failure, right? They said, "No, that's a rejection." And then John Chu, he wrote a letter to to to uh to them and he's like, you know, for when I I grew up in I was born and raised in America for a long time, this this word yellow has a very complicated relationship with me, right? It could be uh you know it could most time is not good but for the first time when I listen to your song I felt the word can be so beautiful. I felt this phrase can be describe the most beautiful thing I can hear in the world. I changed my perspective with the with the word and that's why this song is so important to me and I want people to associate this term and this song was the most beautiful thing they they can think of. It will be half an hour they saw we copied saw this this letter they're like sure let's do it. So most people when they get rejected like that, they just leave it like that. They're like, "Okay, that's fine." To me, what John Tru did was he made art out of that rejection. He wrote a love letter to this song, right? And he would not have been able to do that had he not been rejected. That's that's where artist mindset lies into. when you get rejected, when you uh feel things don't go your way, instead of complaining, instead of like being be mad. Yeah. Get creative. Think about what opportunity you can create based on that failure. When you have that, now sometimes I look for rejection. Like I'm like I'm like, "Okay, I ask people something. If I get a no, if I get a yes, great. If I get a no, awesome. Now I get to see a hug and turn that around." So that's that's how you lose that fear. So coming out of that experiment and I know it was over a decade ago. What was the biggest aha moment for you personally that changed the trajectory of your life? Because going through that many nos, that many rejections, asking for outlandish things on camera, getting this huge YouTube following personally, how did that impact you outside of all the extra attention that it brought on you? >> Oh, it changed me as a person. Uh because before I think I thought the world go with a script right you have a goal you the goal requires you to perform a certain task if you master those tasks and do them well you achieve your goal it's pretty simple I thought the world's world uh worked like that and that's the world I couldn't succeed in because I hated to do those tasks >> but since that since then I And the world the world is so different than us than I thought and and there's so many ideas so many innovation so many creativity that's killed here because I thought this these things don't follow that script these things are just cast I should focus all the single focus single-mindedly focused on that particular task and then I disregard all those things that came to me those ideas came to me after 100 days of rejection therapy I learned that it's those things those weird things those weird ideas those wacky thoughts you come to you those are your opportunities because those things actually say something about you and you are the biggest weapon or asset in your achievement not the script not the not the how hard you work it's it's not the script it's you who you are I did 100 days reject therapy because it spoke to me. I felt wacky, felt fun to me. So I started just building everything based on me, based on what I that what speaks to me. The results was I'm able to make art, write books, give speeches, you know, give interviews and talk to people, have conversations, work with clients the way I knew how and the the best way I can do it. But it's also there's a unique way that only I can deliver. So find that thing that speaks to you. Don't aim at what works. Aim at what moves. Move what moves you. That's really the starting point of your your success. >> Beautifully put. What a wonderful way to end this great episode. Where can our audience find out more about the work you do, Joe? Yeah, you can uh find me uh if you're interested in rejection therapy, you can go to rejection therapy.com. I bought I actually bought the website. I bought the the cars. I bought all the asset, but it was a lot. You want to uh go overcome your fear of rejection and that's uh that's where you go. Rejection therapy.com. If you want to um pre-order, you want to buy my book, you know, you can I build a wall of all supporters. You can your name can be forever uh uh forever uh be with the my new book right and that wall will never change. So you if you buy a book and uh go to jajjang.com j I a ji a n.com/10,000 my first the first 10,000 uh you know purchase of my book get to be on the wall. So if I upload your name you get to be on the wall and that wall will be forever. Thank you so much for joining us, Jaw. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. Have a great time. >> Thank you. >> [music]