The Downfall Of CrossFit & The Future Of Fitness - Will Ahmed

Dude, how high and how hard did CrossFit drop the ball over the last few years? Wow. CrossFit. Well, CrossFit is first of all a great grassroots st um it's a great grassroots movement in the sense that like it literally began as an email list and it's amazing to think how far they were able to go with that. And then you've got the Greg Glassman racism stuff and like the craziness during Black Lives Matter. And then you've got this whole new leadership team that comes in. By the way, around that time, we became partners with CrossFit. And I mean, I've now been building Whoop for uh 13 years. Without question, the most dysfunctional partner we've ever worked. um like and we've worked with a lot of partners like that like and a lot of dysfunction I imagine as well a lot of different partners and uh and then the tragedy at this recent event I I don't know the whole thing is so poorly run it's hard to even talk about it cuz it's such a missed opportunity. I've never seen anybody fumble the bag so hard in like in fitness. If you'd said 10 years ago, 2015, uh actually probably when was peak 2017, probably 2018, something like that, like absolute peak CrossFit, I think. So, yeah. Yeah. Uh if you'd said then what the next seven, eight years had in store, no one would have believed you. It's it's it's outrageous. And I think it a lot of people when they look at businesses from the outside, they see sophistication, they see popularity, they see uh rate of adoption. The thing that nobody sees is what the internal operations of that company is like. And sometimes it can be all shiny shiny and perfect out front and inside is just a total like mess. It's just a a dumpster fire. And uh it feels like that might be the case. And they also had like a great community and a great brand which are two things that are that are pretty resilient like when things go wrong and there's like elements of dysfunction and even with that I mean it's unbelievable how yeah how sorry of a place it is now turning people that whatever consume your product or are a user into an evangelist for it. I mean it everybody's new fitness pursuit is their most exciting thing. You know every vegan wants to tell you about veganism and every CrossFitter wanted to tell you about CrossFit and every high rocks athlete wanted to tell you about high rocks and then now every run club person is trying to get you to go to their run club on a Saturday morning and do a 5K. Uh but yeah, the level of adoption that CrossFit had and the pace of change. Uh, and I think I I get the sense that the only reason we're seeing Hier rocks and sort of hybrid training come through is because of the hole that has been left by sort of the exiting of of CrossFit. There's some new things. It's a bit it's lower impact. Maybe it's a little bit more accessible to go into a High Rocks event than it would have been to have tried to go to sectionals or do a local CrossFit comp. Like I'd rather do burpee broad jumps than try and do a snatch or a handstand walk. But uh yeah, I don't think I think Hyrox's ascendancy can be laid to the feet of what CrossFit dropped. I think there's an opportunity for a lot of these different like fitness communities. I mean, you have F42, you've got Berries, you've got Orange Theory, you've got uh these different types of Pilates studios, and like it sort of seems like people are looking almost for the new thing, and that in turn allows for these different, you know, micro communities to pop up around a particular activity. And at the end of the day, I think, you know, weightlifting for a lot of people is intimidating. Exercise is lonely and hard. like, you know, it makes sense that there are these uh boutique communities, so to speak. And so, I wouldn't actually attribute the success of these other communities solely to CrossFit's downfall. I think CrossFit in itself, it probably appeals to you and me, but, you know, it had a high injury rate before they even had dysfunction as as a company. Uh, it is like a pretty intimidating workout out of the gates. Like there's a lot of people that it's you don't just go in and have a gentle crossfit. There's a lot of people it's going to turn off like right out of the gate. So Mhm. Yeah. You can go and plot along in a 5K, but you can't do that in a CrossFit class. Yeah. Yeah. What are you seeing from a fitness industry perspective at the moment? What is sort of the broad trends that you've been able to track over however long you've been watching everything? So last year the biggest uptick was pickle ball. Let's go. And then in the last so so I mean 2023 actually and then 2024 uh the biggest we saw was paddle. So two racket sports interestingly pickle ball grew a lot in the United States. Paddle um which people in the states call pedel but paddle um which is what it's called internationally uh has just taken off. And so that's a pretty fascinating game too. I grew up playing squash and tennis. So for me, paddle's like maybe the most fun game I've ever played cuz it's a sort of perfect hybrid of the two. Are you familiar with what it looks like? Yeah. So it's, you know, the whole glass courts all the way around and you're sort of you're sort of in a tennis court in um like, you know, a glass cage and you can essentially play the ball off of anything and it's uh it's pretty dynamic and fun. And is this based on the number of activities tracked? Yeah, in terms of like the percent percentage increase of activities we've seen on Whoop, that was that was the biggest one last. So, you guys are kind of like a fitness trend aggregator now. Yeah, we've got a lot of data, that's for sure. Uh the the thing that people still struggle with the most is sleep. It's amazing how um you know like 20 I think it's 22% of people on Whoop um get over 7 hours of sleep. So just think about that that like you know roughly 80% of people are getting less than seven hours of sleep. Uh, and I think sleep sometime in the last like 5 years became the new steps where all of a sudden people just realized that was an important thing to care about and steps maybe in turn was a less important thing to care about in the grand scheme of things. And uh yeah, we've we've certainly benefited from people's enthusiasm towards sleep, but it's yeah, it's super important. It's hard to track. I I've said this for a long time that as soon as you begin using any fitness tracker, the first thing that you learn is you're not sleeping anywhere near as much as you thought you were. Yeah. It's a very painful You're like, "No, I got 8 hours." It's like, "No, dude. You were in bed for 7 and 1 half and you were asleep at 6:45." Yeah. That that's the trap is people previously if you ask them how much sleep did they get last night. They're like, "Well, I went to bed at 11:00. I woke up at 6:00. I got 7 hours of sleep." and then they realize after you do all the factoring of time awake and this yeah it's 5 and a half hours of sleep and uh yeah so you know one of the things we recently did was update how we we think about sleep where it's less just the total hours that you got versus how much you needed and it's now um also looking at sleep consistency efficiency and stress and so it's sort of a better it took us a while to get there but it we did a lot of research around what is quality sleep and Uh, one of the biggest things that shows up in the research is the importance of um, consistency, which is going to bed and waking up at the same time. And you and I were just talking about how hard that is in general. I mean, you you the nightclub promoter, you the new dad. Yeah. So, that's probably my worst metric on Whoop in part because travel just nukes it. So, for people wondering how it's calculated, like for the last you look at like the for the last four nights, how similarly was your bedtime and wake time? And if you travel over time zones, that that of course factors into your to your consistency. And uh but essentially there's all this research just showing that uh if you can build uh you know a sort of continuity around bed and wake times, your your overall circadian rhythm, your overall performance of your body longevity. I mean it's one of the um key indicators we discovered when we built this health span score uh for um you know o overall health span and and actually all cause mortality. I had Dr. Matthew Walker sat here and he was telling me about how for some people that are I think they're like circadian sensitive. I actually unfortunately think that I'm one of these people. Uh sleep consistency and regularity are more important than sleep duration. Yeah. And that means that the classic, well, you know, I get good sleep during the week, but I kind of send it on a weekend. It is actually not, you can't do that. You can't accumulate sleep debt Monday through Friday and then pay it off on Saturday or Sunday or do the reverse. Um, and that, you know, [ __ ] about with the time that you go to bed and the time that you wake up is actually like pretty detrimental. Yeah, we call that uh social jet lag. And uh it's interesting for a lot of people on Whoop. It's it's quite common that they lock in for Yeah. They're good for 5 days and then on the weekend it's like off by 3 hours and they're kind of back to the What's people's worst day of sleep typically? Do you know? Uh it's either Friday or Saturday night in the US. Now it's interesting now that Whoop is global. We have a lot of different perspectives on this, but the Middle East with sleep is crazy. They're like in their own world. How so? So, the average bedtime in Riad or in Doha is like 1:55 a.m. No way. Yeah. I think Doha is the latest. I think it's like a little after 2 a.m. What do you attribute that to? So, late night food, shisha, bars. Yeah. So, those are two countries that for the most part don't drink alcohol. And so, I think in part they're substituting that with things like caffeine and nicotine. And so like those are stimulants that are going to keep you up later. It's a good justification for letting alcohol into your country to just bring that bedtime. Dial that back in. Um yeah. So I think it's entirely cultural. It's interesting. What else? What is some other outlier countries that are interesting with some odd metrics? Uh Ireland uh drinks more alcohol than everyone else. Maybe maybe that's not too unexpected. Um I think Australia and the US report um the highest rates of sex. Okay, that's interesting. Uh so so uh good for them. Um uh cold plunging I think is very popular in Sweden relative to other countries. Finlandas probably. Yeah, Finland persona. Uh and then there's there's very activity specific stuff like you know certain countries do way more of like um uh certain activities like in the US the top three activities are like walking, running and cycling. And then like after that it's like functional fitness and weightlifting which is you know kind of like the order of operations that you'd expect. Um, but then like in the in the UK for example, they've got like a much higher uh weightlifting uh culture interestingly. So like that replaces cycling and Yeah. Well, it's also freezing cold and wet so I don't think people want to be out on the road. Why is there no bodybuilding on the app? I think we have powerlifting and we have weightlifting. Neither of those are functional fitness. No, neither of those are bodybuilding. Me and all my bros in the gym like, "Fuck, I got to pretend that I did snatch and [ __ ] clean and joke today." The What do you What do you define as power lifting? Bodybuilding or excuse me, bodybuilding versus powerlifting. A normal push per leg split, a sort of 8 to 14 rep range, not working to the goal of strength and not working to the goal of specific movements, but working to the goal of hypertrophy. It wouldn't be intense enough to be called functional fitness or varied enough to be that. uh weightlifting, the sport of Olympic weightlifting, right, is the snatch and the clean and jerk. Powerlifting is SPD, squat bench deadlift. And if I go in and I do, you know, 4x4 on bicep curls, what do I log that as? I So I I put it in as weightlifting, which I assume is what most other people are doing, too, cuz you are lifting weights. Okay, we'll add it. We'll add it. We'll we'll have an activity for bodybuilding. My my my my gym bros, I've done it. God, it's only taken me five or six years to do it. Um, I found out something during my research. I found out that you're an only child, too. And this is going to be kind of like a immovable object and an unstoppable [ __ ] force as two only children meet. Um, have you ever reflected or do you reflect much on how that influenced you? Sort of how it shaped your personality, the things that you expect, the way that you were socialized, how you showed up as a young man and now an older man is a great question. I mean, I think the first obvious thing is that I do think only children are more self-centered. Like, I think that there's an element of uh if there's things that you want in life, there's sort of an element that you believe you can go get them. Uh, and I think that that's probably something that that only children uh have a stronger gravitation to or comes more naturally. There's also another element which is that you at least for me I found I spent a lot of time with adults when I was a kid and I would travel with my parents to different countries and um and so I also got comfortable around being people like sitting at a dining room table with like seven other adults in me and strangely the two things that I just described actually boded well for being a young entrepreneur because I think so much of building anything, it's probably even so much of like what do you want to do in life is knowing what you want and figuring out how to get what you want. And I think that knowing what you want is like a deeply um it it requires a deep sort of inwards reflection. I think the mistake that a lot of people make, particularly when they're young, like I started whoop when I was 22 years old. The mistake that a lot of people make when they're that age, is they ask everyone else what they should do and they don't ask themselves. And so I think the the the best path of trying to figure out what you want, like knowing what you want, is to look inwards. And as an only child, you also spend a lot of time alone. And so looking inwards is sort of a natural thing. Second nature. Yeah. Uh and then there's of course like practices that you can develop to look inwards like I got into meditating and we could talk about that but um so looking inwards was something I became comfort you know comfortable with and um and then the process of getting what you want I think is actually it's really important to get outwards like to go be around a lot of people and you know essentially try to ask for what you want in the world and get rejected a lot and sort of deal with that and again the mistake that a lot of people make when they're trying to get what they want is they actually become isolationist. And so there's an interesting, you know, um, irony to this whole concept of get what you want and or, you know, discover what you want and get what you want. Um, but then I think there's also an element with being an only child where uh, you can build up you you potentially can build up more self-esteem because your parents have more time to sort of, you know, pay attention to you, right? And I, you know, I have great parents and they they loved me considerably. And I think that helped with self-esteem, you know, probably throughout my childhood and and growing up, which probably in turn when I was starting a company made me more resilient in the face of rejection. You believe that you can do things that other people might have had second thoughts about. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I also had a lot of conviction in what I was building. more conviction in the thing than I had in myself, which is an interesting concept in itself. But like I believed that what I was building should exist in the world and would exist in the world. And what I struggled with for years in building it was can I do this? Am I capable of this? Oh gosh, I feel like I'm under a lot of stress or I feel like I'm under a lot of pressure or um I don't know the answers to these things or how do I hire someone or how do I fire someone or how do I raise money? Like for me it was it was dealing with that sort of trauma of building the company. How did you learn to get past your self-doubt? Have you got past your self-doubt? How much does it still creep in? I don't have a lot of self-doubt now. I think that uh I think that I'm I'm I've gotten good at um questioning why I have conviction in things and then you know sort of examining that through other people's perspectives or through my own uh you know sort of deeper examination if you will. I don't think that um you ever stop entirely having self-doubt and you probably shouldn't you know because then I think you get a little unhinged so to speak but I do think that uh confidence and self-belief is sort of a prerequisite for doing anything really hard. Traveling should be about the journey not the chaos of packing which is why I am such a huge fan of Nomatic. This backpack has genuinely made the process of traveling so much more enjoyable. They've got compartments for everything. Your laptop, your shoes, your sunglasses. So well organized that even your toothbrush will feel important. It's the Marie Condo of luggage. Everything's got its place. And if you're on the fence, their products will last you literally a lifetime with a lifetime guarantee. So this is the final backpack that you'll ever need to buy. Plus, you can return or exchange any product within 30 days for any reason. So you can buy your new bag, try it for a month, and if you do not like it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get a 20% discount and see everything I use and recommend by going to the link in the description below or heading to nomadic.com/modernwisdom. That's nomatic.com/modern wisdom. It's an interesting one. So, I resonate with a lot of the points you made. Certainly, the spending much time on your own. Um, the uncertainty, the self-doubt. There's something I want to do, but I don't know if I can do it. Am I the person to do it? I think it should be here. I think this is something that's important. But is it my role, my capac do I have the capacity to bring this thing into existence? I certainly feel that. And I think this is a regardless of how many brothers or sisters you had, I think this is a pretty perennial problem. people who are growthminded and have high standards, insecure overachievers, they they position an ideal and then they compare themselves to the ideal and they find themselves falling short by design because that's what an ideal is. Uh or you set big goals or you have a dream or you have whatever whatever it is that you want to do. Uh, and also sort of programmed into just the typical cadence of how this stuff works is you have something you're chasing toward and you're uncertain about whether or not you're going to get there right up until basically the moment you get there and then the second you get there you move the goalpost again. So there's no point at which you feel like you've arrived. So you very rarely actually sit in accomplishment and gratitude. So, if you're permanently doing this iterative sort of I get close and I move away and I get close and I move away and I get close and I move away. If you're permanently doing that, at what point are you not going to feel like you're lacking? You're permanently in lack because you continue to push it further away, continue to push it. I think all of this sort of combined together creates this uh a soup that's probably pretty fertile to grow self-doubt out of. But at least for me, I realized this last year. I did this live show in London. It was kind of a formative a little bit of a formative moment. It was three and a half thousand people at this big theater and I was like, "Holy fuck." Like, I'm on stage in front of three and a half thousand people. This is insane. And uh someone asked me, we do these uh people can come and watch the sound check that are in the first few rows. And uh someone asked me a question. They said, "So, did you think is this part of the plan? Did you think you were going to get here?" I the poster child for imposter syndrome in a lot of ways. uh chronic self-doubt, a lot of uncertainty, but I think kind of in the same way that you said, which is if you believe that this thing is supposed to exist in the world and if you really like the thing and you kind of you almost outsource your own self-doubt to well, this has got rocket fuel behind it and I'm just going to keep seeing if that thing can come and I can't tell anybody else to bring it into existence, so I might as well have a crack at it myself. And if you're sufficiently stubborn, kind of before you know it, you you don't fake it until you make it. You sort of make it until you believe it. And then you go, "Oh, like I this is a thing. This is a company. Like there's a tracker and it actually tells people that there's a podcast and oh my god, I'm on stage in front of all of these people." Or, you know, this is I managed to get the degree or I managed to move out of the the town that I hated or I managed to find a partner. I managed to build a f whatever it is that you thought like this thing is supposed to exist. I don't know if I'm a person that can do it, but I'm just going to keep sort of grinding away until it happens. And then when you actually turn around and look, you go, "Oh, I guess this is what arriving is." Yeah, that's really well said. I mean, for me in building Whoop, it was helpful to sort of disassociate building the company and building myself as a CEO or an entrepreneur. And I think in the for years like I had kind of wrapped those two things up as one. And so if you know if Whoop had a good day, I had a good day. If Whoop had a bad day, I had a bad day. If Whoop was failing, I was failing. And uh and it's not a particularly productive sort of framing, if you will, for actually growing either yourself or the business. And the reality is that, you know, the business could be doing great and you could be spiraling out of control or vice versa. You know, how many businesses suffered during COVID to no fault of their management team, right? And so there's it it just it's it's quite important to separate those two things I think literally. And then I realized also that if I didn't start growing better, I was going to be the detriment to Whoop growing because as the CEO, lame duck in your own company. Yeah. Because as the CEO, if you're, you know, projecting all sorts of stresses and and uh you're not managing the company properly and you're kind of spinning out of control yourself, uh well, the business isn't it's very difficult to have an orderly company and a chaotic founder. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and so I felt Yeah. I felt especially early on I was very much that chaotic founder. Now, it's hard to it's hard to go back and say, "Well, I wish I could change the way I behaved for the first few years of the company's history because there is an element of and I I think I believe this. There's an element of you change one thing and you know, everything else changes going forward going on." Yeah. And of course, I'm I'm super grateful with where I sit today and and you know what we've been able to build, but um yeah, I I I put up real walls in those. So that the period of like 22 probably to 24 25 of just like real walls to anyone's feedback and I was so certain about things and I was so stubborn and I think it's in in a way it's a good it's a it's a helpful mechanism to get something off the ground because there's no ambiguity but you're very hard to work with. I hear the same thing from the people that I work with. Yeah. Uh maybe a little bit of only child syndrome showing through that. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, from both of us, my business partners would agree. Um, I really resonate with, and this is something, you know, no matter what your pursuit is, if you're scrabbling a little bit for meaning, uh, in life, which almost everybody who's a bit sensitive and introspective is when they're young, because who the [ __ ] are you? Like, how many people arrive at 20 or 23 and like, "Yeah, I know who I am. I've got a good strong sense of self. You know, things don't sway me. Shut up, dude. Of course, stuff does. You get the weather's bad and you feel bad about yourself because you just haven't had enough time to get those sort of stabilizers down. And I run nightclubs for for all this time and and exactly the same. The weird thing about running events, it's uh kind of like being a a baseball player. It's iterative, right? You have as for especially for us we had this big Saturday and that was our our big event from the age of 22 until 28. It was the Saturday that was our big money maker. The big game so to speak. Yeah. That was the big one. And if the event had been successful, I was worthy. I was I was uh good. Um I was validated. And if it was bad, then that was a reflection on me. Then I managed to get it to this much more penitious place which was I dissociated working hard and pain and difficulty with good outcomes because typically when you worked a little bit harder there was some pain that came along with it but when you worked harder the outcomes were better but my brain you're already grinning my brain had shortcuted the link and it ended up being if we had an event that went well but I hadn't suffered that I didn't feel And I started to make a direct link between Chris suffered. Chris is good and worthy. So the event had to go well first, but I also had to have suffered. So if it went well and I hadn't suffered, I that wasn't good. If it went badly, whether I'd suffered or not, that didn't matter. So the only key that unlocked my selfworth for like a good bit of time was success objectively and pain subjectively. And if I'd done that, then hooray, maybe that's okay. So, it's just it's a really interesting twist, I guess, on the Puritan work ethic. It's like a a capitalist Puritan work ethic where you know that you should be grinding and you are just in so driven by dopamine and chaos and and and caffeine uh and in the nightlife industry other substances too that you end up in a place where you signal off of how hard this thing was. And then you get into your 30s and you go, "Hey, I want to have a family or I want to chill out. I want to be able to go to bed on a nighttime and my thoughts be a good quality." You go, "Oh, you need to let go of the entire pathway catalyst fuel that you were using previously. Good luck trying to unwind that." And that's been a task of basically best part of a decade now for me to try and unwind that that little linkage. Yeah, the unlock for me in that category has been to be driven and grateful. And I feel like it's easy to get stuck on just the drive train and the dopamine system of, you know, when the company's worth $und00 million or a billion dollars or $10 billion. You sort of keep telling yourself when I get to X, I'm going to be happy. And what's good about that from a drive standpoint is it it drives you there. But of course when you get there there's sort of enormous letdown and it's also uh you have to you have to balance it with being grateful for the moment that you're in. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs worry that or sort of misinterpret gratitude as complacency. But I think they're they are fundamentally different things. and you know and they work different uh you know aspects of your brain like the the drive system is dopamine and the gratitude system is serotonin and both of those have a you know a way of making you happier. How have you learned to navigate those two things given that there's still things you want to achieve and you still do want to be driven. Yeah. But you don't want to look back on a series of miserable successes as a career. No, I mean, so I I would say my my sort of um broad operating principle is that I want to be of service. And that's a helpful framing because just out of the gates, it it makes it less about what you accumulate and more about what you do for your company or society or your customers or fill in the blank. And beyond that, I also um get to work in uh you know unlocking human performance and health span and this sort of like uh what I would call noble mission uh which is around making people perform better and you know live longer. And so by by not having uh my sole mission be around uh you know revenue numbers or um company valuation or those sorts of things like I think that alone helps you get a little bit outside of um the miserable successes so to speak. And so like it's very easy to um just gloss over numbers that get bigger and not really associate any meaning with them. But when you go from getting um you know one testimonial every six months to getting hundreds a week from people that are like your product changed my life and you get to stand in front of your company and read that to 500 people who are you know blood sweat and tears trying to make this product great. You feel something. I mean that there's a lot of gratitude for me that comes from that experience. And uh and so I can still want to push for the company to be bigger and more successful and be affecting more people, but I can also at the same time I think appreciate the impact that it's having and and that's I would say will the entrepreneur or CEO, right? We all have these different identities and uh you know I I've I've sort of looked at hard things that happen in your life as a path to growth. Like we talked about early on when I was 22 like not really knowing what I was doing running a company and just having to go through that sort of painful period of of becoming a better CEO or becoming a better human. I think that in general um you know pain in some form leads to growth and so if you if you kind of adopt a growth mindset it makes you much more comfortable with being in that painful state. Now you don't want to be you don't want to be in sort of a masochistic way where you're yeah like what you just described where you're like you want to force yourself to be in pain but more just in the sense that like wow a bunch of things just went wrong in a row for me and this is very painful. Um, like my best friend committed suicide a little over a year ago and that like in my personal life that was the most pain that I'd ever felt in my life. I'd never lost anyone um let alone someone who I had seen you know a week earlier. And I think when you're first going through the um the trauma of an experience like that, it's hard to find perspective in it. But, you know, if my emotional range at that point in my life was like from a six to a 10 where like, you know, zero is a bad zero is like the worst thing in your life and and 10 is like, you know, you feel great euphoria. Like, in hindsight, my emotional range was actually kind of narrow, right? And so being able to go down to a to a one or a two for some period of time actually opened me up in a in a really healthy way in the months later and in a way that I never would have anticipated from having this terrible thing happen in my life. And uh and so you know some of it's a little bit of just how you reframe everything. But I have found that in whatever category of your life that you're feeling some kind of enormous pain, there is like there is something on the other side of it that you'll benefit from. 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Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemus.com/modern wisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's lim nu li.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. How do you keep operating a fast growing business when personally you've gone through something like that? I think a lot of people have to show up to whatever their job is, whether they're the founder of a big company or they've just got a normal position or they've got to be there for the kids or they've got to be there for their partner or whatever it is uh when they're kind of going through it. How did you come to I'm sure that you've reflected on this. How do you come to split brain yourself into actually being a functional human? Well, your first reaction is uh to try to go numb because that is a coping mechanism. If you don't feel the pain, you can kind of still get through the day and you have to process the emotion. You have to feel it. And so I think in the first 10 days of it, I was sort of white knuckling through it and especially kind of dayto-day and running the company. Now, fortunately, the company's also at a stage where I've got, you know, an executive team that's that's pretty functional and um and they knew what I was going through. It wasn't like uh it was a secret. Uh and then at least in this specific case for me, I I delivered the uh the eulogy um and it was he I mean he was a very popular young man and it was in front of 800 or a thousand people in this massive church and uh and so that and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life was having to talk about his life um and you know someone I loved and cared about and uh and just a whole wave of emotions went through me doing that. And so that one, I felt enormous relief from doing it. And uh and then, you know, two in the aftermath of it, I was I was proud of being able to celebrate his life. And so there were there was sort of a weight that was taken off from that experience. And then of course you deal with these other stages of grief which is around like you know I would play squash with them every week and so now every time I go to the squash courts like I think about him or I go to the steam room and I would say with them. So you have these different um you have these different stages of grief but but I think in the sort of in those first 30 days the the best thing that I could have done was to go through that huge like wave of of um painful release of emotion. Yeah. It's uh the classic male denial of any emotional issue. Yeah, I'm just going to lean into knowing myself to I can keep moving. This is what they would have wanted in any case from me, you know, logically, emotionally, psychologically, however you want to try and rationalize. Yeah. The I just this kind of sucks and I don't want to feel it. I I think that that's sort of a natural uh that's a sort of a natural thing that any anyone can do because it's it's scary how your body feels like it's a physical overwhelming um uh state and uh and it it's distracting like you you know you think you're in the middle of a conversation next thing you're you're crying. So, I understand that, but I if anyone's listening to this who's going through grief, I would encourage them to um take whatever time or whatever process they need to release what they're feeling in that period. Interesting that doing a eulogy is in itself a form of sort of therapeutic release in in some ways for you. Oh, it was huge. and and and I think it was exag it was an exaggerated experience because I had I had to write down everything I felt about him. I had to, you know, deliver that in front of actually a large number of people that happened to also be all of my closest friends and all the hardcore type of public journal entry that you're ever going to do. Yeah. And and it and it was, you know, a large public speaking event, too, which is, you know, it's its own form of whatever. and uh and I had never, you know, experienced death like that and I wanted to celebrate someone who was a really important person in a lot of people's lives. So, yeah, I think that that it was a very exaggerated experience and um I'm I'm I'm grateful that I got to do that that aspect of it. Yeah, I think uh just going back to the two points that you raised earlier on, sort of working out what you want and then working out how to get it. Um, I would hazardly guess that most people get stuck, think they get stuck in problem two, but are actually stuck in problem one. Yeah, that's a great way to describe it. They're they're kind of out and about trying to chase a bunch of things and they're upset they're not getting what they want, but they've never actually declared what they want. How did you investigate what it was that you wanted? What's some advice that you have for how people can better define that? Well, I think the the first thing to know is that it's an inwards examination. You have to ask yourself what you want. You can't go asking everyone in your life what you want. You'll never figure out what you want. And and so that's that's a very internal and introspective pursuit. And I do think that it's hard when you're young because you you haven't quite figured out how to talk to yourself yet. At least I hadn't when I was 18 or 19 years old. Uh, but you can be sort of self-aware of things that you're drawn to. So, let's start with things that you're not drawn to. Well, you know, I did a bunch of internships, so to speak, when I was like 18, 19, and 20 or whatever, and I worked in finance, which sort of seemed like what I should do because other people I knew were going to go into finance. And um, and I just didn't enjoy it. And by the way, in my free time, I was, you know, doing research on the fitness industry or the wearables industry or those sorts of things. And uh and then you know when I would go uh play squash practice at Harvard or whatever uh like I would love working out and love like pushing myself and and through that I also was someone who used to overtrain. So I got interested in how you can figure you know how can you understand overtraining and through that I found myself doing physiology research on things that in the past I wouldn't have been interested in or not drawn to and I think the things that you think about in a shower or in the back of a cab like when your mind is quiet so to speak I think those things really matter like what are you actually drawn to like pay attention to that probably the biggest curse of cell phones and smartphones is that people aren't bored anymore and so they actually lose some of that inner dialogue. Yeah, I did a lot of therapy last year and one of the best things that my therapist reminded me to do was pay attention to fleeting thoughts and yeah, that's well said. Specifically, it was when I was on the cushion, but also throughout the rest of life. And fleeting thoughts are quiet, you know, they sort of appear and they come and go and quite easily ignore them. And um if you have some distraction in your pocket, if the volume that you need the rest of the world at to be able to hear fleeting thoughts is so low. Yeah. And the volume that kind of comes out of your phone proportionally and mentally, whatever, cognitively is so high, it's so loud that it just, you're right, it doesn't have any room, doesn't have any space to appear. And yeah, that the ability to pay attention to fleeting thoughts and to think, huh? But then you need to be careful, right? Because the mind's slippery and sometimes it'll say stuff to you. You go, "Yeah, that's [ __ ] That's bullshit." Uh, so that's a fleeting thought. That's [ __ ] Sometimes they are. Yeah. But sometimes it's a I don't know what it is. I don't know where it comes from. I don't know. Well, I I would say it's recurring fleeting thoughts because the things that matter to you keep coming back. I at least I've found. And uh and then I think the other thing that everyone should learn in some form is is the ability to close their eyes and breathe. And whether you call that meditation or mindfulness or fill in the blank, develop some process to sit with yourself. And what about getting what you want? Let's say that somebody's managed to set they've developed the ability to pay attention to fleeting thoughts. They're actually working in that way. Where have you noticed with the people that are around you, your team, yourself? What are the pitfalls that people find when it comes to actually getting what they want, assuming that they managed to define it? Well, one one step is to state it. I mean, don't be koi about it. I want to build this company. I want to be a musician. I, you know, fill in the blank like what do you want and state it to the world and then you cannot underestimate hard work and consistency. If you are hard charging and consistently hard charging, that is such a differentiator on the on sort of everyone else. And uh and that's in turn what creates luck, you know, like if you keep showing up and you keep getting rejected and all of a sudden you meet this person and they introduce you to that person and next thing you know you're on a plane and you showed up to the city and it didn't quite make sense and now you're meeting the person who all of a sudden has the answer to that thing you wanted to that break that you needed. And so I, you know, I think getting what you want is some com combination of hard work, consistency, and luck. And you could probably bolt on to that like a comfort with rejection cuz you're going to get rejected enormously. And the more ambitious what you want is, the more you're going to be rejected. Most people aren't that bothered by rejection. I think most people are bothered by the fear of rejection. The idea of failure or rejection hurts so much more I think than actually being rejected. And that goes back to my point about people when they're trying to get what they want actually get insular rather than going out, right? Like you want to be introspective about what you want and then you want to be extroverted about getting what you want. And I think people get stuck sort of going out and about because they're afraid of what's someone gonna think if they know I want this thing or you know what we outsource to our family or our friends what is it that I should want and then when it comes to trying to go and get it we don't go and ask for it because that insulates us from failure. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about framing it that way but I think it's I certainly think it's correct. I mean cynicism I think a lot of the cynicism that we see in the modern world is people assuring failure privately so they don't need to face the risk of fail failure publicly. uh if I don't basically if I don't try then I can't fail and yeah that's true uh there's always sort of one foot a lot of the time when people commit not going 100% in to a relationship it's like you know if I don't give everything to this if I don't fully open myself up if I sort of you know keep my eye wandering a little bit more if I convince myself that this person isn't ain't quite my person or whatever. That's a good point. Then if this doesn't go well then, you know, like it's not a comment on me because I wasn't in it. I wasn't fully in it. It's like most of me or a bit of me, but the bit of me that I care about gets saved over here. I think commitment is another criteria to get what you want. Like being deeply committed to it. And whether that's a relationship or, you know, a uh a pursuit that you're after in your career, like staying committed to it is huge. A lot of I meet a lot of young founders who are kind of they're sort of in school, they sort of have a job, they're sort of starting something, right? And there's a safety in that because if any one of those things sort of blows up, they've still got the other two and you'll still sound good at a dinner table, you know. I will say though, getting over fear of rejection is part one, but getting over rejection is part two. Like I struggled with that and Oh, did you get rejected? Well, from the age of 21 to I I mean, look, I' I've now dealt with rejection throughout every phase of building this company, but I would say it was most painful from the ages of like 21 to 24 because I hadn't experienced actually a lot of rejection in hindsight up to that point in my life. And everyone I was telling this idea to about like, hey, I want to start this company. This is the thing I'm going to do. a lot of people I respected like they were all kind of telling me like this is a bad idea dude like you should not do this and and then of course you go try to raise capital and investors tell you no and you try to hire people and they tell you no and and um and I you know looking back on it I think there was good reason for that like I was a kid I was starting something that is big in engineering and medicine and computer science and math and you know I'm not an engineer or a computer science scientist or a doctor or mathematician and like and so there's just and I was super young and naive and so like I understand why I faced all that rejection but it still was very painful and um and then that's where the conviction piece waivers like your commitment and your conviction um I was committed I stayed very committed to the idea again because I believed it was going to exist in the world and I had like deep conviction around that but my self-belief That's That's what wavered cuz when you get told no enough times, you're kind of like, well, either they're all crazy or I'm crazy. 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You know, so I remember again to use my equivalent, the world of night life. Uh I would have been 19 or 20. So I would have been in my second or third year of university. We would sit down with these grizzled old leisure company owners who've got, you know, portfolios of many nightclubs and they've been in the industry since the '9s or the 80s. Yeah. Some of them. And you know, me and my business partner are there. it's 2008 or 2009 and we're saying well look you have a a fantastic venue and the way that you stock and staff the bar is great and your contacts with breweries are fantastic you know your service your ingress and egress are fantastic uh doors team uh solid needs a little bit of work sometimes they get a bit heavy-handed with the but you know all in all we think it's a really really good place and DJ booth is in a good position we can move people around quickly you don't know anybody that wants to party what the [ __ ] are you doing with this empty venue and we needed to say that to someone that was you're onethird of my age. I don't need you. And I always remember thinking, you can't see perspective in problems while you're in them, right? It's only in retrospect that you're able to go, I know that's the lesson that I was. You don't learn the lesson while it's happening. It's one of the sort of ruthless things about people saying, well, you know, it's either a blessing or a lesson. And you go, yeah, but the lesson comes down the line. So, it's kind of like either a blessing or a curse that has delayed onset to become a lesson in future. And uh yeah, I'd sit with these guys, these grizzled old northern club promoter gateway keepers to between us and the venue. It's like, look, I don't own a venue. You're right. I don't own a nightclub. I don't want to tie up half a million or a million or 5 million pounds of capital in bricks and mortar and stock and staff and bars and licenses and stuff like that. Uh so I don't have I have lots of people that want to go and party and I don't have anywhere to put them. But you have a big [ __ ] building and it's really expensive and you don't know anyone that wants to go and drink there. And that was a to just have someone who was so much younger. You know, if you're a 60-year-old Leisure Company owner and you've got a 20-year-old sat in front of you going, "You need me." It's like go [ __ ] yourself. I don't need you. Go. So, and I always felt indignant. I felt very indignant about the fact that I knew that what I was saying was right. And I had belief in the product. Maybe even if I didn't have belief in myself, I had belief in what we could achieve. I knew what our track record was like. And yeah, maybe the same with you. it. And this is kind of I guess an insight for anyone who is performing or shooting for goals that are kind of beyond their age a little bit that we talk about agism as you know discriminating against Joe Biden being old and like you know Nancy Pelosi and stuff like that but agism happens in reverse in the world of business too. There is a you know if you're too young. Yeah. Yeah. If you're 38, no one's really got a problem with you doing anything. It's like you're slap out until you probably get to like top top level VC [ __ ] where you maybe need to be a little bit older or you start getting into government stuff, but like really if you're mid to late 30s to probably what 60s, everyone's just like, "Oh, he's just he's just in the mix, right? He's in the mixer." But before that, there's just this sense of, "Yeah, all right, that's nice." But you really uh skepticism, like maybe undue skepticism that people have around this. I remember being so pissed off by it. Didn't want to be treated like a kid. Uh because you know what you can achieve, but sometimes people can't quite see past the uh like what's in front of them, the age of what's in front of them. If you're trying to build a a orthogonal wearable company with tech that as yet doesn't exist, like there's going to be some hurdles for you to get over there. Yeah. And I didn't have great answers to the competition either. And that was the sort of other variable in building the business that was quite complicated. It was just any sensible person was going to ask the 22year-old or the 25year-old like, well, how are you going to beat Nike? how you gonna beat Apple, how you gonna beat Adidas and Under Armour and Microsoft and all these sort of big gargantuan companies. So that probably played a role in an appropriate level of skepticism. Yeah, it was fair. Yeah. Well, that's a special type of pain, right? To look back in retrospect and realize that this thing that you felt really agrieved by was actually maybe justified a little bit. Yeah. I mean, there's an element of, I think, building anything where you have to see a version of the future that other people don't see. And then at some point, you either need to be right or you're not. And you don't know until you get there. Yeah, that's that's kind of interesting. I think we because of the ability of people to use leverage, we maybe overindex, over glorify the solo lone wolf, crazy genius entrepreneur. And obviously, you end up with a ton of survivorship bias because you don't hear about all of the people that tried the crazy new idea and yeah, you remortgaged your mom and dad's house and didn't work. Yeah, that's those aren't newsworthy stories. What's your take on on on failure? Cuz I feel like failure's gotten very romanticized. I [ __ ] hate failing. Yeah, I hate failing so much. And uh I don't have a particularly good relationship with the idea of it. Uh I've failed very few times across my entire professional career, which suggests that I'm moving too slowly. And I would tell somebody else if they like, "Hey man, I've basically never failed at anything I've tried professionally." go. That's just an indication that you're playing within the bounds. Your uh safety tolerance and comfort is too much push further. Exactly. Because you're waiting until you've got basically 100% confidence in whatever it is that you're going to do. The confidence interval is collapsed so much that there's no chance it's not going to essentially no chance it's not going to work. Uh which means that you could iterate more quickly, maybe break a few things, but move significantly faster. That's me. Um, it I knew I wanted to move to America three or four years before I actually finally made it. Uh, I probably should have left the world of nightlife at least a couple of years before that. No, we're talking not huge amounts of time, but when you're 28, 3 years is [ __ ] 10% of your life. It's, you know, 30% of your adult life. Sure. So, it's you the failure porn thing. I get where it comes from and it comes from a place of wanting to reassure people that if stuff doesn't go badly, if stuff doesn't go well, if it does go badly, you'll be okay. I understand. I think that's a noble place to put it in. And I I'd go a step further. I think it's actually in part to get people over the fear of failure. Mhm. Get sort of get them out of the blocks, right? Take the leap. Stop being paralyzed. Don't be paralyzed. Yeah. I think that's where to your point the failure porn's coming from is trying to convince people that it's okay to put put themselves out there. That's a much more noble way to think about it if it's because Yeah. My my my reflection is that I've learned more from successful endeavors than I have from ones that have failed. And I think failure is largely overrated. That's interesting. Why? So, so sometimes I think this is particularly true of startups. I think that um a lot of startups all kind of fail for the same reasons. You know, they didn't find product market fit or they burned cash too fast or um you know ultimately the the product or service was something that another competitor did faster than them or they got undercut on price. Like there's like five things that most of the the the co-founders got angry at each other. There's like five things that like all startups essentially fail from. But the companies that really make it, they all kind of have some kind of like secret in a way. Like they have some magic. And uh and I think that there's probably more that's unique about each of those than um than sort of it is the same. And and so so for people who have been on that sort of one in a 100 rocket ship, I I think that you're you're learning some special sauce. And in the future, you're going to look for, hey, what is the special sauce? Like we actually have to we have we have to create something here. We have to we have to spark something that otherwise we're not going to have. That's such a good point that if if people were to learn more from failures than they were from successes, they still don't know what they're looking for. You don't actually know what it is you're looking for. You just have a series of things you know you're not looking for. Yeah. And I agree with what you said earlier on, which is that like uh avoiding pitfalls can sometimes be more useful than expediting success. Like if you if you learn a really really important lesson about uh not reducing down your [ __ ] cash flow to the point where one bad week kicks you out the bottom of your business. Like yeah, that's a that's a lesson you're only ever going to hopefully only ever going to learn once, but that still doesn't actually tell you the lesson that you're trying to get toward. Just tells you some of the ones that you're trying to get away from. And uh I wonder whether this is why we see consistent winners in the world of startups and in the world of business and in some ways maybe in the world of life too. You end up with you know the Matthew principle to those who have everything more will be given to those who have nothing more will be taken to the Bible. Uh and it's true in everything. It's true in compounding in wealth. It's true in uh uh astrophysics in the size of stars and black holes you know almost all of the gains almost all of the mass accrs to a very small number. It's the same in rivers in geology. It's the same in uh in business right like the being number one is 10 times better than being number two which is 10 times better than being number three. And being number 100 is basically unless the market's insanely huge but like dead. So yeah, I think understanding what is it that I'm actually trying to get toward a a perfect example of this. I've been through 15 failed relationships so far. I really know what I don't want. It's like great. What about what you do want? What do you want? Yeah. Because it is important to know what the red flags are. The only reason for avoiding red flags, whether it's in business or in your personal life, the only reason for avoiding red flags is to expedite you getting green flags. Like, don't make the game be avoiding red flags. Yeah. And I think I think what's happening a little bit with people that say they've learned so much from failure is uh it goes back to the pain thing. It's like they they realized how much they can sort of personally overcome the suffering of a failure. It one takes away I think the fear of future failures. It's like okay like I know what that is. I've been through that and um and it sort of broadens that that emotional tolerance going forwards and you know ultimately probably makes you more resilient in a way but it also dampens down the pain of having to deal with the failure. Yeah. Right. You're like, "Oh, [ __ ] I had to eat [ __ ] there." But I learned a lesson, right? Well, at least I learned a lesson. Yeah. Right. You try to take that positive from it. Yes. With the same my my friend passed and that sucked and and I had to do this eulogy and that also sucked and it was in front of loads of people and that made it even harder and I was struggling and that made it but I learned a lot about myself and I got to expand my you know there's there's ways that we try and alchemize even the most difficult situations to to to become that. Yeah, that's well said. The um yeah, I I mean, look, I think whatever whatever can be done to make people have a like a like a lower fear of failure is is probably good. So, I'm not I'm not out here like, you know, bashing the the failure energy, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think uh but I do think you learn more from these unique successes than and the one thing I reflect on is Whoop almost failed a lot of times like we really almost ran out of money a few times in the in the history of the company and uh in particular about six years into the company like we were right on the verge of bankruptcy and I think a lot about if the company had failed then like what would have my lesson been And it almost certainly would have been to have been less ambitious with the technology, to have gone to market sooner with something that was like less cutting edge. Um to be mass market faster rather than working with athletes, you know, a lot of sort of to be honest the the feedback that I got from people who rejected the business, I would have taken those as the lessons. But in in turn actually when we did ultimately become successful those were the reasons we were successful. But the line is so tight right I guess another another 5% of cash flow another 10% of cash flow maybe even less. Yeah. And you'd have eaten [ __ ] and that would have been the the takeaway. This is it's such a good point retrospectively trying to take lessons from someone who had a close to a a victory that was at least in part dependent on something like timing on something like luck on something like first mover or early mover advantage uh on the stars aligning. I mean of the four traits that you said earlier on, luck was one of them which you can largely with consistency uh and like a high work rate can you can almost create your own luck in in many ways but the external you know circumstances are largely out of your control. you can just sort of be in the best position possible, but it ends up with people post hawk rationalizing loads of [ __ ] And you go, I don't know if this is an evergreen lesson. Yeah. Or if this is just a quirk of the specific time and space that you were in when this thing happened. I I don't know what to make of this. I don't know. And everybody only experiences life the way that they experienced it. They don't get to go back and see the other ways that only a hair's width left or right could have happened would have been different. So how universal are the lessons that you took away from this if it was so close to not being the thing that happened? How can you say that the lesson that you took away from that was a universal rule? Because it was almost not. It was almost not by design. It was so close to it being a completely different sort of outcome. And especially if it's something, you know, existential like the end of a relationship or a friendship or a life or a business or or uh a trajectory that you were following on. It's really hard even for us. Well, I I think one takeaway is that it's helpful for us in general to take meaning from experiences. And so whether it's a success or a failure, taking something from that is in turn a path towards growth. And so you can question whether or not the lesson could have been actually the exact opposite or completely different. But by taking a lesson, you are in turn feeling like you're growing. Well, you're also training yourself to be the sort of person who reflects on their experiences. Yeah. and reflecting and having a growth mindset like these are things that are uh just enormously useful in your life. You I mean one other way to look at everything we talk about through the lens of sports like there's so many examples of what you were describing in sports of like this the the most recent example is is with Rory Mroy winning the Masters and Rory's been a friend now for like you know seven or eight years. He was one of the first big golfers to wear Whoop. And so I got to know him well. And that final round at the Masters was like every version of uh like a human experiencing uh you know like this emotional roller coaster and and such highs and lows. I mean, he hit he hit shots in that round that he's the only person on the planet that can hit, right? Like on the 15th hole, he hits this like sweeping seven iron, like 200 yards to 5 feet. And then, you know, on the 13th hole, he hit a shot from 80 yards that an amateur golfer would put on the green. And so at at moments during that that round, not just the tournament, but just that one round, like he was the very best golfer in the world by far. And he was a complete amateur. And the and and he had to go through these huge ups and downs to like, you know, overcome what was this painful 14-year trauma that he essentially was experiencing of of winning the career grand slam and winning one more major. And uh and there's this amazing photo at the end of, you know, the moment he's won and he's sort of released his putter and his putter is like, you know, because it's a photo, just sort of frozen above him. And what it looks like is gravity has just flipped and you can just feel the weight that's come off of this man for having to deal with this, you know, essential essentially like trauma for 11 years. A quick aside, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I'm frankly dependent on it. For the last 3 years, I've started my morning every single day with Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. Each grab-and-go stick pack contains a sciencebacked electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, or any other junk. 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Rory is one of them, but who else are some of the athletes that you've got to spend time with and you just think, "Holy [ __ ] this person's uh mindset, their approach to the game is a different level." There's a lot of common themes amongst the world's best athletes. Uh, so you know, Michael Phelps and Cristiano Ronaldo and Patrick Mahomes and Rory and like like I've spent a lot of time around these guys and there's a certain intensity that burns inside them that is uh hard to fake. Like you can kind of feel it even when you're chilling. Ronaldo is probably the most exaggerated example of that that I've ever felt. How so? Just you can feel a drive like you can feel a certain energy and you know people all everyone kind of gives off an energy and and depending on how healthy you are in a given day or how good you're feeling maybe your energy is stronger or less strong but like um his the energy that he gives off is one of of real drive and there's like an intensity burning there that you can't fake. like you can just feel it. And uh and I think for a lot of these guys, there's a cost that comes with that that we the fans don't see. Like you don't see the the cost of having to be the first person at the practice facility every single day and cold plunging for hours afterwards and and the time away from the family and the sacrifices in all these other areas of life. I mean, it is very inspiring when you really get a close-up look at it and you realize just like what a grind it is. Like, it is such a grind. You see the goals and you see the the master's jacket, but you don't you don't see the grind and the pain and the injuries and like the the time that they're not on camera. And there's something about it that's both inspiring and also you're like, "Yeah, maybe I wouldn't want to do that." Intimidating. Yeah. I mean, this is you've activated one of my trap cards and um the question of what is the price that people pay to be someone that you admire has been it's a good question. one of the most compelling ever since I started since I grew out of being an adult infant. Um, started to be a little bit more of a grown-up, I guess, intellectually. Uh, it's one of the the questions I've been fascinated with to look at what's it like to be that person. You want to be that person. You want to be Rory Mroy, do you? Okay, let me explain all of the prices that he's had to pay to be Rory Mroy. You like the look of Patrick Mahomes or Michael Jordan. Perfect example. [ __ ] the, you know, uh, The Last Dance. Um, still now at what is he? Probably 50, something like that. I don't know how old he is. Sorry if he's in his 40s, but yeah, like 50s. Doesn't look happy. A man who is tormented by drive and perfection and obsession. He's the greatest. Okay, but that's the that's the price that you need to pay. Elon was asked on Lex's show three years ago said, uh, he says something like, "How are you doing?" He takes a little moment. He goes, "Most people think they would want to be me. They don't want to be me. They don't know. They don't understand. My mind is a storm." This is the richest guy on the planet. Sending rockets to space, building world changing cars. He's on on stage in Japan doing robot dances and shed fathering a million children. He's actually easier to compare to some professional athletes than any other business leader. How so? In just that it's clear that he's he's got a drive that he's tormented by and he's willing to sacrifice everything else for it. And you see that with the world's best athletes. Well, the the thing with at least the problem with looking at anybody through the lens of a narrow pursuit like their success in business or the success in the sport is that you only see the one vector that they've channeled their outputs into and you don't see any of the other fissures that their costs leaked out of. Right? Well, what what if this guy hasn't had sex with his wife in like two years? What if the the the drugging themselves to go to sleep and stimulating themselves to wake up in the morning? What if their relationship with their father or their mother is just non-existent? What if they hate themselves? What if they can't bear to look at their body in the mirror? You know, all of these things happen and you go, "Okay, but they're the great the greatest. They're the best." Yeah. Would you want that? Is that what you want? Because you don't, as you said earlier on, it's kind of stupid to just look at one element either of a business or of a person and say, I want I really want Rory Mroyy's masters thing. The not being able to sleep on a nighttime because he's obsessing about that shot he missed. I I don't really like the idea of that so much, but the green jacket that sounds great. It's like you don't get to piece this person together. Someone is a whole, right? uh his level of obsession. I'm totally like just throwing shade at Rory's like mental state, but I imagine his level of obsession, inability to let go of things and and you know is the reason that he's got to there. It's not some weird bug on a on the side of the code that makes him Rory Malroy. It's a feature that is a part of his performance. And uh yeah, this this question of what is the price people pay to be someone that you admire is [ __ ] endlessly interesting to me. Yeah. And I think athletes have gotten more uh introspective like I I actually Rory is extremely uh thoughtful and he's gone through phases of reading books on the stoics and meditating and all sorts of things. I think a lot of a lot of athletes end up being more introspective because they get into visualization which becomes sort of the gateway to uh meditation, intuition, these sorts of different um levels of of of self-discovery. And then I think there's there's plenty of really capable athletes who don't actually go that deep inwards and they don't really analyze the how it works as much as know that it works and they just go I had who was I talking to this? I can't remember who it was. Uh cultivated stupidity we called it. Uh that Matt Fraser good example of this I think actually. Um, so Matt in Ben Burgron's book Chasing Excellence, he tells this story about Matt was an engineering student, I think, and he would make himself wrote, memorize entire textbooks, word for word, and he would then sort of play them back in his head, or maybe he was writing them out. If he missed one word, he would just make himself go back to the starts. This guy was very, very smart and very, very driven and very, very obsessed. But there is a kind of boneheadedness and almost simplicity that you need to turn up and do 90 minutes of zone 2 work because you there's got to be a better way. I go I just need to sit on the rowing machine for 90 minutes. It's zone 2. I'm not going to go that hard. You just want me at 135 BPM? Really? That's where you That's That's what I'm supposed to Yeah, it is. You need to go in and have this. Just follow the plan. Don't overthink it. Don't spend too much time ruminating. Uh, can you chill out? What's your recovery like? Are you able to sit on the couch and play Xbox after a big training session? And uh, yeah, we often celebrate a really good work ethic and very rarely celebrate a good rest ethic. And it both of those are a skill. The rest thing was kind of the unlock for whoop getting into all these pro athletes and building those relationships was this idea that you can now measure recovery. And one thing that I was really surprised by, but now makes sense kind of knowing the cast of characters is like amongst the very best athletes, they're actually willing to experiment a lot. Like they're kind of always looking for what is that additional way I can get a little edge. And and that's one of the things that separates, I think, the very best from from just like a great professional athlete is this like drive towards experimentation. And it's part of the reason that in the early days of building this company like someone like LeBron James or Michael Phelps was willing to wear Whoop see if it gave them an edge. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that you were talking about earlier on this sort of fear of failure, this uh you know obsession with detail but not beyond a point. I'm sure this is something that you consider the sort of health anxiety that's downstream. The perils of overoptimization, being able to see why, you know, god, I didn't sleep very well last night says my whoop. I feel kind of okay, but then I get in my own head about that and I didn't hit my 10,000 steps today. [ __ ] step tracker on there now. Um, how do you come to think about uh using data to assist to improve people but not to be uh an object uh like a taskmaster or or a prison that people can get trapped in? I I think first and foremost we view Whoop as a tool that anyone can use. you know, we don't view it as uh your master. We view it as a tool that uh can make you healthier or live longer or perform better. And the general sort of broad critique of is more knowledge better? I've always rejected. I mean, you can go back to the printing press and people being like, "Oh, we can't have the printing press. God forbid so many people have access to information." So I I think in almost every stage of human history, this rejection of people having more knowledge is is uh is sort of a lazy analysis. Now there's certain things from a technology design standpoint that we've done with that in mind. So, I've never believed that having a screen on the product actually uh made it a better tool, you know, and and I've always thought there's plenty of screens in the world and do we really need one more screen that's giving you numbers that you're obsessing over and looking at and they're vibrating and alerting you. And so, in many ways, we designed the product to disappear into the background and to to be there when you needed it and to look at it when you need it. And for a product that people wear 247, it's actually remarkably unobtrusive. You know, it's not talking to you. It's not beeping at you. It's only going to vibrate if you want it to vibrate. Vibrate. Yeah. If you want it to wake you up. Um, so yeah, we've done we've done I think a lot of things around the concept of have this be a tool that's in the background versus having it being a master that's trying to control you. Mhm. Yeah. Alas, I know that some people do struggle with that. Actually, there's a uh I can give you an idea from my friend George. Um, and this is uh specifically from when he was wearing Whoop and uh focusing on improving his sleep. He wished that there was a way that you could set and I know that you guys do a weekly review, monthly review, end of year review as well, but that uh all notifications could be turned off except for a check-in on a weekly basis or that you could hide your data from yourself until a particular day of the week to sort of interrupt your ability to be able to see. I'm aware that journal like you need to do that on a daily basis. It restricts a lot of the turn [ __ ] activity on like how am I going to do that? Um, but I do think, you know, the general position he's trying to get himself to is to focus on signal, not noise. And a daily check-in on daily metrics a lot of the time is there's a lot of noise in that. If you to look at your week-long trend, the bad Monday doesn't look so bad because it's spread across seven days. If it's Tuesday and you look at your Monday, I might as well kill myself. Like, this is horrendous. Yeah. And look, I I think you well, first of all, the concept of um hiding data, that is actually one thing that we did develop against because we would have these really exaggerated examples. Like imagine you're an Olympian and you're training for four years for one day. It turned out for the most part the Olympians wanted to know how recovered they were, but they didn't necessarily want to see how recovered they were. So we would we created a a toggle. This actually exists in the app today. No. Where you can literally have your data collect, but it'll hide your recovery score and your sleep score. Oh. And so, um, in a sense, we built the George feature, um, for Olympians a long time ago. Now, the point about it being for a week. I mean, what I would just say is just don't open the app for a week, right? And keep the thing charged because it's going to store data. Mhm. Now that Whoop has 14 day battery life, too, like you can How long can it store stuff without being connected through Bluetooth? 30 days. Oh, wow. Okay. So, you could actually just run the sucker for ages and not even have it connected to your phone. Yeah. Oh, that would be a solution. That's a slightly more low tech solution like just disconnect. Now, you know, it might if you're uploading a week of data, it might take, you know, a couple hours to upload, but yeah, but you sick. What's the herz frequency now on a nighttime? It's a little variable, but it's it's anywhere between probably 25 and 50, right? So, in terms of, you know, the number of times we're sampling a second. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. It's interesting. I've been uh digging into sleep stuff. I did an at home sleep study, which was pretty interesting. Nalia, I had the the tube the dodes on the face. I had the tubes coming out. I had this thing. This is pretty interesting. It's a real getup. Oh, yeah. I look great. Um they put a sensor on your sole on the outside of your leg, outside of your calf. And this was super interesting. People who've got restless leg syndrome move their legs a lot when they sleep. But you can have restless leg syndrome and not move your legs. So what this sensor does is it detects whether or not your brain is sending a signal to your legs, but below the threshold that moves them, but above the threshold that it's nothing. And that's still classed as a minor form of restless leg syndrome even if you're not moving your legs because your brain is still saying maybe we should do this but it doesn't breach whatever particular line there is where you would you would start moving around. Uh don't have restless leg syndrome. That was pretty interesting. Um so you don't have that? No, I don't. I I have REM induced sleep apnnea which [ __ ] sucks dick. Uh so you bounce yourself in and out of REM a lot. You go REM to wake to wake to wake. Um, so I need to work on that. And then as soon as you learn about uh any apnic events, you then go down the rabbit hole of dentistry and biological dentistry and you start to think about pallet size and uh airway opening and then you learn about how wind instrument players have no sleep apnnea. So the new device, it seems that one of the new devices that are good for uh apnea events, uh 8 to 14 weeks of 15 minutes a day. It's sets a 5 by five which to me like given a a sort of heavy weightlifting background. Yeah. 5x5 to me slap bang in the middle of what I'm used to. And um it's kind of like the read from a saxophone but without the saxophone attached to it. And it's got a lot of resistance in it when you do a special um exercise blowing like very hard through this thing. Uh the original study was done on marching band uh performers and they found that none of the horn or wind players had sleep apnnea and a lot of the others did. They said, "Well, there's got to be something to do with the way that they play." The only difference between these people is the way they play the instruments. And yeah, I think it was a not an obo. What's the other thing that's like an obo? A digery do. The original study was done in a [ __ ] digy do sleep study. Um that seems like kind of a breakthrough study. Yeah, it was dude. Uh so uh I think this is going to be this is real frontline stuff from Andy Galpin and Matthew Walker and the really cool some guys I'm sleep working with. So you're now going to start doing this? Yes. So I've got it should be in the air. It should be arriving this week and uh between uh mouth tape and nasal dilators and not sleeping on my back and using tracking and and all this other stuff. But one of the big things is going to be this. So yeah, I should just learn to play the saxophone. That'll be way easier. and I'd be functionally, you know, musically. Saxophone is cool. I played sax when I was in like fifth grade. Not particularly well, but Well, maybe your lack of sleep apnnea is contributed to by your brief stint as a saxoponist. I do think there's an element of if you can't be great at something, it's kind of like dangerous to be okay at it. Like there's part of me that feels like if I was even a mediocre musician, like I'd be playing at, you know, the local bar and that would like I would have Yeah. I'd have no entrepreneurial anything. I just would have been this like, you know, dude, you certainly want to pick your suit playing a bad saxophone. you do want to pick up suits, but that's also, you know, the drive that you were talking about from Rory and from other guys that you've worked with. And also, uh, the one that you see in yourself, uh, very much doesn't allow you to do things that you're not particularly good at. At least I find this was talking to a friend who's working with a coach and the coach said, "And you just take up a pursuit. What would you what would you like to do? Anything. Pick pick something that you think would be be cool for you to to do." And he said, "Oh, um, watercolors. Watercolors sounds like a cool thing to do." You know, he wanted to outside of his highowered degenerate business like pursuit that he could do. Watercolors. She goes, "Okay, I you you get yourself some watercolor stuff, but there's one stipulation about your pursuit of watercolors. You can't try to get better." And he was like, "Oh, fuck." Like, she just wanted him to just play to just like be in the joy of doing watercolors. She's like, "Cuz I know what you're going to do. You're going to go on YouTube and you're going to start watching videos and you're going to start refining your technique and then you're going to find the person that made the YouTube videos and find out they've got a course online. Then you're going to see they've got a retreat in Costa Rica and before I know it, you have another business that is about yourself or another aggressive pursuit. Um, so that idea of you're going to try to do a thing, but you're not going to try to be the best at it. And in many ways, your progress towards becoming better in it is only ever going to be emergent. It's only ever going to be bottom up, not top down. You're sort of not going to dictate yourself into betterness. You're just going to practice yourself into enjoyment. And uh I I may try and use this as an excuse for why I have a woefully low pickle ball rating. Um I don't know. You don't understand. I'm I'm trying to I'm just in the flow, dude. You may be a better pickle ball player, but I'm actually more flowy than you are. Uh but yeah, I thought that was I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I remember him telling me and thinking it was interesting as a as a framing. That is interesting. Although it had me thinking that there are things in my life that I like to do or have liked to do just because I was getting a little better, but I wasn't obsessed with, you know what I mean? Like I played in a soccer league from the ages of like 25 to 32. And I was, you know, there were some sports I was athletically I would say more gifted at. I wouldn't say soccer was ever one of them, but I just enjoyed it so much. Like running around like a total, you know, goof kid, uh, with refs and 90minute games and whatever. Uh, you know, I'm I'm I would say an okay cook and I like to cook steaks and stuff from time to time, but it doesn't I don't I don't necessarily feel bothered that I'm not making a better steak than, you know, fill in the blank down the road here in Austin. like you can I think you can pursue some of these things with just an eye towards getting better and I actually think there are I think there's something um for people older in life picking up particularly activities that they can get better at because there's there's sort of this comfort with doing the thing that you did in college or you did on some high school team and you do like you do like a bad version of it as you're older and you always think about oh like I wish I was this younger but if you can get into lifting weights for example and all of a sudden you see the numbers going up a little bit over time or uh you know yoga or Pilates like I I think that's great. Mhm. and you don't pursue and you don't need to become a yoga instructor but like progress I think progress matters it it does and I wonder you know the sort of balance between yoga is a really really good example because there is no such thing as winning right there is no such thing as winning at yoga there is getting better and there is there is pro it's hard to keep score too yes yes so for the perennially metric obsessed how golf golf you can keep score baseball pickle all you know there's a literal rating next to your [ __ ] podcasting YouTube you know you know lot of numbers again where you're ranked you know business oh well you know how year on year quarter on quarter where we you know but I do believe that you can't you can't you have to be careful how many desires you have at the same time because that's essentially this contract with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want And you want to pick a couple lanes, ideally only one or two lanes where you're really all in. Because if you try to do too many things at once that to be great at, you know, it's you're not you're not going to be great at all. Mhm. James Clear's got this new [ __ ] slamming insight, which is if you desire the life but not the lifestyle, you guarantee disappointment. So, you want the outcome, but you're not prepared to do the things that get you toward the outcome. I love the idea. That's been a theme of this conversation with the athletes and you know, but Mhm. I want to be in a band. Love the idea of playing on stage in front of thousands of people. Okay. You need to be in a van, a very small van playing butt [ __ ] nowhere shows for a decade. Yeah. That's what that that is the lifestyle to get you to life. Do you want to do that? Yeah. You go to the Taylor Swift concert, but you don't see her training at 8 a.m. singing her entire set list on a treadmill. I have seen uh videos of not Taylor Swift, who is Miley Cyrus before the Super Bowl. Have you seen this video? No. Epic, epic video. So, I think Miley Cyrus performed at the half time in the Super Bowl not long ago. Or maybe it's I'm pretty sure it was Miley Cyrus. and she's on a treadmill singing and uh it's the sort of buildup and she's just, you know, heart rate's going to be through. She should have won a whoop. Heart rate's going to be through the roof and she's like building this thing out and she's obviously trying to work out this energy, this sort of nervous anxious energy. She's warming her body up. She's warming and uh yeah, it's crazy in a not too dissimilar way. my equivalent, the only equivalent I've got uh uh going to do Rogan like is you're on your way, you're driving from my house to Rogan Studio. It's 12 minutesish. Should be longer. It'd be better if it was longer. I should drive further away and then loop back around. That would make my life easier. And uh it very much does feel a little bit like sort of going through the players tunnel toward like a pretty big match. Yeah. You're a little stressed out. Yeah. And there's, you know, you need solutions from that. So, I've got a And this is now the same thing I've used for every big episode. Peterson, Naval, Sam Harris, Rogan, whoever. Um, you have a pre-match ritual in that. What is it? Uh, so, uh, wake up on time regardless of how tired I am. So, I don't let myself sleep in. I would rather be up and in a good mood. Sleeping in tends to put me in a bit of a bad mood. Makes me feel like my day started off on the back foot. So, I want to kind of win the pillow. I think about winning like owning the pillow. It's a good name for a book. Win the pillow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I've it's a big predictor for me of how well the rest of the day goes. So, get up, do my usual morning routine, walk, journal, breath work, meditate, read, go to the gym, train, like moderately hard. I've done it too hard previously and I end up crashing partway through the episode. So, that was a lesson from failure that I only ever needed to learn once. One coffee, one coffee, no more than one coffee, one coffee max. Uh, breakfast, but no carbs. So, typically eggs, bacon, sausage, something like that. Uh, then go back any notes, whatever it is that I'm reviewing. And then the sort of final hour is just listen to really great music, have a little sing along. If I'm going to have a shave, if I'm going to have a shower, if I'm going to like, you know, whatever sort I'm going to wear out, uh, do that and then get in the car and then on the way there, more good music, having a little sing along. So, maybe Miley Cyrus had it right all along. I should get on a treadmill and start building out Miley Cyrus songs. Um, it's relatively stripped back. What it, at least my sort of current working theory is it's a combination of all of the things that feel like home to me that are very comfortable, the things that I do on a daily. It's the perfect morning when chaos doesn't occur. And that happens maybe only once every week to me where I get the full run of all of them perfectly done without [ __ ] say phone call in the middle of this. Oh [ __ ] what's happened with the most recent upload? Whatever it is that goes on. Um, but it's not so uh novel that it's sort of disquing to your systems. This is comfortable and this is comfortable and this is normal and this is whatever. Hey, there's there's stresses in that experience that you've walked through. Mhm. I mean, that sounds like a great routine in general. It's awesome. It's awesome. I get to midday and I'm just locked in. I'll usually have my optimal neutonic uh consumption is like one can on route in one as I'm starting and then I'm like [ __ ] I'm at 30,000 ft just locked in. Yeah, that's it, dude. I I can if I go more than about one an hour for 3 hours, I start to [ __ ] hear colors and see sounds. It ends up being a good but a little bit activating. and the mindfulness that you want to just be able to sit back and give things a little bit of room to breathe. Um, yeah, it's it's interesting to I love learning about people's pregame rituals as well. I know baseball one of the most superstitious ritualistic sports, maybe the most I would guess in in perhaps all of sports because it's so iterative, right? And it's so uh replicable. So you see players that will tap the bat on both feet, undo and redo each glove. It's like why? Like you don't they haven't come undone, but it's all just part of this, you know, very very consistent schedule of how they What about you? What's a morning look like? I guess you've got a six week old, so [ __ ] chaos, I imagine. Yeah. I mean, one thing I was just reflecting on and listening to your uh very healthy day is like I realize there aren't that many days in my life over the course of a year where I'm like, "Oh, today I have a big blank." You know, it's almost like it feels like every day I go into it trying to have a similar output and a similar sort of, you know, game plan. you know, avoiding that roller coaster. Yeah. And so, in terms of my morning routine, wake up, um, shower, work out with a trainer, um, uh, sauna, cold plunge, meditate, uh, breakfast, uh, off to work. I mean, that's kind of like the perfect morning for me. And how often do you hit that? That's three days a week when I'm in Boston. And then, you know, the Tuesday and the Thursday I'll try to work out. So, Monday, that's Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And then like the Tuesday and the Thursday, I'll try to do something on my own in the morning. Um or for the last six weeks, it's been more like family time in the morning. So, I'll have like breakfast with the little little Tommy and my wife. And um hang out with the little guy, which is pretty incredible. And and in a way like it's interesting hanging you spending time with your newborn has a similar physiological effect to meditating. At least it does for me. Um and I meditate every day. So that's become a huge part of my life and just being able to manage everything that comes at you. But I find if you can have a great first couple hours of the day, it just makes the rest of the day and everything that gets thrown at you so much more manageable. Yeah, like most of my most of my professional like work life is just things coming at me. Like I don't know what problems going to walk into my door that day. But it is a lot of sort of managing problems. Very much think about starting the day on the front foot. Yeah. And I think that's a good way to to think about it. Yeah. And in a way you I've also kind of started to think of the day starting at you know 9:00 p.m. the day before which is like what's your sleep routine? And I wear blue light blocking glasses, which I love. You know, you don't want to get into a fight with your wife before bed. You want to have like, you know, you look like a nerd. Shut up, wife. Well, I've gotten her to wear them, too. Fortunately, lately is a dead team player in all of my Yep. health optimizations. Uh I haven't gotten off of the devices. I would say that's probably I don't know if that's a frontier actually I'm ever going to conquer because I'm still optimizing so much around being like a productive entrepreneur and CEO and you kind of you know it's such a global world so many trade-offs. Yeah. And so I will look at my phone kind of up until I go to bed. And um but you know things like red light in your bedroom and um warm shower before bed some nights, little uh magnesium. If if I feel a little tense, maybe I'll have some melatonin, read a book, you know, those things. Those that that's a good way to start tomorrow. Mhm. Mhm. One of the worst things, and this was a lesson learned from going to bed at 4 in the morning a couple of times a week for a decade and a half, was uh realizing that tomorrow was ruined before tomorrow has even begun. There's a special kind of hell there where you go, [ __ ] it's 5:00 a.m. I haven't like this morning. I thankfully today hasn't been ruined and I had a really great day, but uh my body just decided to wake me up at 3:00 in the morning. [ __ ] you, dude. got up. I'm like, "Right, okay. I'm going to do all of the things that CBTI tells you to do. So, I'm not going to get I'm going to stay in bed." All right. You want to be awake? Be awake. You're going to have to walk around. You're going to have to look. You're going to have to keep your eyes open. Your body doesn't want to do that either. I'm like, "Well, pick." Right. Would you want to be asleep? No. Okay. Would you want to be awake? No, I don't want that either. Like, you are a petulant child. Sleep brain anyway. And that is actually hell. Yeah. It's It [ __ ] sucks. and uh I get back to bed at 4:30 a.m. 4:45 a.m. Oh my god. Do I do I try and drug myself into sleep? Cuz I could, but that means that when I get up to train at 7, I'm going to be pressing the brake and the accelerator at the same time. I'm like, okay. So, let's say I took an ambient 3 hours ago. I'm like, right, okay, so I've just ambient 3 hours ago. Yeah, that's going to affect your workout. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I felt great this morning, dude. I maybe the ambient That was this morning. The ambient neutonic combo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I felt And then I went and did this photo shoot with your guys. Uh so I trained twice before midday. I think I had probably less than 5 hours of sleep. I feel fantastic. Have you seen that meme? I post this meme all the time. the meme of the different uh amount different different hours of sleep and the way that this guy looks and one hour of sleep is just like a a shadow with his face falling off and it's goes all the way up to 8 hours where he sort of feels like a god and then but for some reason six and seven hours of sleep the guy's face is falling off too but two hours of sleep the guy's like transcendent there's something about two hours of sleep I get the sense that it's one full sleep cycle that it's one full 90 minutes you're still in a nap Yeah, there's one full 90-minute cycle and you you're going to eat [ __ ] at 3:00 p.m. that day, but up until midday or so, you're like, "Dude, I flooked it last night. Like, I dance through that minefield. I'm going to" and then it gets to 2 p.m. and you go, "Oh, no. Oh, it's hitting me." Uh, do you do you travel overseas a lot or over time zones? It was last year a lot. I do it all the time and I've I find I've I've gotten pretty good at it. one um two two great hacks for it are one not eating at all on planes. So never eat on a plane even if you take food. Yeah. I'm not going to eat period like 14 hours to Dubai or something. Not not eating. Yep. That's painful. And uh and I drink a ton of hydrogen water. Mhm. What's your hydrogen water of choice? I use this uh bottle called Echo Go. Let's [ __ ] go, dude. Is that your thing? They're fire. Have you got the new one? The square one. Or have you got the old slightly older one that's cylindrical? Uh, I think I have the older one. The new Echo Flask. It's It's got this This new one's got a screen on the side and there's an app that comes with it. Everything needs an apparently. Yeah, mine doesn't have an app. This new one. So, the the new one is is [ __ ] sick. But yeah, dude. Hydrogen water is I So, if I could I was saying this for I picked that up from Gary Brea and he's like all about hydrogen water and turns out he's totally right. Electrolytes, too. I'll pound electrolytes, but I won't do it in my hydrogen water. Echo go. Yep. No, I mean that circulating that through would be a bad idea. Uh yeah, I was with Gary. I was at the health optimization summit here in Austin this weekend and I went to there was a dinner for the speakers. It was like a meetup or whatever for the speakers and it was Mark Sison, Gary Breer, Ben Greenfield, Max Lugavir, Dr. Dom, the world's leading biological dentist. Like every different uh But Dr. Steven Gundry, like some very forward thinking. Yeah, it was it was fun, man. And I'm the absolutely the token stupid person in the room and I'm just sort of listening to stuff that I'm like, that sounds maybe that's true. That sounds plausible, that sounds plausible, that sounds like it might be fun. But one of the things that pretty much everybody zeroed in on was hydrogen water. And um if I was saying this at the start of the year or if I could make some bets sort of on the roulette chip table of health um I would have done three or four years ago I would have said four stage reverse osmosis water filtration for drinking. Um I think everyone's really worried about the municipal water standards and water quality and what what's in your drinking water. Um, I would have said uh sleep trackers and liquid cooled mattress toppers probably six or seven years ago. I would have said that those would be and now I think hydrogen water including hydrogen baths and breathing molecular hydrogen that's a little bit more like a flask that's 200 bucks and will last you until you break it. Pretty good investment. It's like pretty accessible to most most people. uh redoing your entire bath so that you can have hydrogen water pumped in and dermally absorb it through your skin. That's like a higher higher barrier and that machine I think's like 100 grand or something. But the I I actually shout out again to Gary Brack like I did one of his hydrogen baths um at his place in Miami and uh I felt incredible the next day. I mean it's a very uh it's a very unique uh mechanism for improving health and I'm surprised that it's not more mainstream I think but when something's that effective and expensive it just requires a little bit of like technology so to speak to access you've got to the problem with hydrogen I think look at me talking about [ __ ] I spent half an afternoon with Gary Breer and I talk about hydrogen uh that's actually a meme. Yeah. Yeah. the uh I think the problem but this is a commercial insight is at the bottom end there's no way except Echko actually have patented their bottle and their technology but you can get hydrogen into water relatively inexpensively and it's not patented no one can patent putting hydrogen into water the levels that you do it to and the functionality and the durability and the battery life of the device all of that stuff is uh so at the bottom end it's unprotectable largely uh and at the top end it's not accessible So I think you have this weird market where you go well what's the incentive to push on the bottom end given that anybody anybody can do this and there's no protection. Not anybody can build the device that's on your wrist but pretty much anybody can make a comparable device uh at the bottom end and then at the top end it's just so [ __ ] expensive and hard to get. And what you don't want to do, the other thing is even if you had 100 grand, I think you can get like a equivalent one for maybe 20 or something from Echo, but you also need to have water filtration in your house because if the water is not of good quality, you're pushing Austin municipal. I had an email this morning from Echko because they're going to send out some sort of a unit to do hydrogen baths in my house. And I was like, "Oh, I I've heard about worries to do with water quality." He, "Oh, give us your postcode. We'll area code. We'll tell you uh whether your water's up to scratch." And he said, "Oh, no. You've got 17 markers that are outside the advisory. Oh wow. For whatever it is that we would do and they've just been a dink dink dink just searched it online. Oh [ __ ] So yeah, there should be a little service too they provide this. Oh we'll do a survey. Yeah, that'd be sick. Or like have have that be built into their app. It's like you know check out your water. Yeah. The slight disadvantage there is you're just going to create a number of reasons for people not to buy your product. Although the drinking stuff I would go I mean everybody knows this but you need to watch your water quality. It's pointless hydrogenating your water if it's full of all sorts of [ __ ] So I think four stage reverse osmosis something or any kind of burky filtration aquatru something similar or plummet in underneath is like that's the first step. I think there's still probably an opportunity to create that high-end experience at a more accessible price point, even if it's not highly patentable. I'm surprised that there isn't a brand around it. What was the second thing? So, you said don't eat on planes, drink lots of hydrogen water, pound the electrolytes. Yeah. Was there a second hack for uh travel? No, the two the two that I found were unlocks were don't eat on planes and drink hydrogen water. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And you could add this as a third, which is when you get into the right time zone, go to bed on the right time zone. I also try to avoid naps at all costs because I feel like naps when you're jetlagged are a trap. Next thing you know, you're asleep for 4 and a half hours and you're like, am I waking up? Is this white knuckle? White knuckle. Yeah, I did Australia toward the back end of last year and that was 14 hour time. I think you're supposed to have one supposed to. Whoever came up with the one day for 1 hour time change thing. Dude, that's [ __ ] No one has that much time to do stuff. I was in Australia for 2 weeks. Oh, yes. So, the idea is you're you're you're going to be jelly for 2 weeks. Basically, that you should give yourself you should account for one day per hour of time change. I I remember reading this online. I have no idea. Well, this is actually a very unwoobed point of view, but I think a lot of jet lag is psychological and that people start telling themselves they're jetlagged and they get kind of into this downward cycle and then they start drinking alcohol and napping and they just sort of do all these sort of things that are on a negative spiral. Whereas, if you go in with a real positive attitude of like, I'm going to defeat jet lag out of the gates, going to make it my [ __ ] Yeah. Uh yeah, but Australia Australia hurt. That was Yeah, that's hard. That was a real a real painful one. Uh what should people expect from you over the next apart from new child dad life presumably a change of wardrobe and body composition over the next couple of months? Uh what else is coming up? Well, we recently launched uh the Whoop 5.0 and the MG. So that's all of our new hardware with Whoop. It's got much longer battery life and uh new features like around health span. And so it'll tell you how old you are in your Whoop age and what you can do to to get younger. Uh there's a whole feature that's around heart screening. So if you're someone who's worried about having AIB or um you know you're talking to a cardiologist or you might need to talk to a cardiologist, there's a whole feature for that that's now medically cleared. Uh we came out with blood pressure monitoring which is pretty badass. So we're the first wearable to do that on a on a large scale. Uh yeah, I mean a lot a lot of new technology that we just launched which I'm pretty stoked about. In some ways it's been you know 13 years in the making and uh in terms of me I think it's you know trying to get a little better every day try to keep building the business at some point this is probably a company we'll take public which is in itself another chapter another challenge another growth opportunity. Mhm. Yeah. I mentioned I was with your guys earlier on today and I I I just had to bring up the fact that Steven Bartlett got an advisory position uh but he's got smaller forearms than me and uh I thought that that was not necessarily relevant or important but something of note and uh I just you know I'm gonna sort of leave that to to linger in the air but dude congratulations. You know launching a human and a new product in the space of a couple of weeks is no is no small feat. So um yeah it's awesome. I've been a, you know, a huge fan of the product for forever. I was grandfathered into the monthly from the buy it once you Oh, so you're a founding member. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Yeah. And then also a partner. You must have a lot of recoveries. Uh, yeah. Like thousands thousands and thousands. Um, which was fun. And before that, I actually totally forgot about this, but I use Sleep Cycle. Uh, you know that app? It's an alarm. It's kind of Was it one of those things you stuck on your bed and like it was a just a phone app that you put your phone near your bed. Yeah. Um I use it as an an alarm, but it also does a little bit of tracking stuff, too. It uses a mic, so it's like rustling around. I guess it's real raw like rough stuff. Um but yeah, I've been in one form or another, I've been tracking sleep for a decade now, which is pretty crazy think that I've got that much data. But uh yeah, dude, I I really appreciate what you do. I think it's awesome. And the fact you're enabling these athletes and helping everyone to realize just how much little sleep they're getting is cool. And I appreciate your mind as well. I think it's it's nice to see somebody that's committed to one thing and yeah, limiting desires whether they're personal or corporate is is pretty sick. So really glad to meet you today. Thanks brother. I've really enjoyed this. Oo made it to the end of the Will Ahmed episode. Well the Indian Will Ahmed Naval Rabac is waiting for you just here. So go and watch the episode. It's one of my favorites.