Video summary
The discussion centers on whether modern society's push to dissuade men from traits like aggression, dominance, and impulsivity constitutes an unfair genetic burden compared to societal expectations placed on women. The speakers reference Richard Reeves' arguments regarding these behavioral shifts, noting that while schools often treat boys and girls identically despite significant developmental differences, this approach is culturally "insane." Historically, pre-industrial societies allowed pubertal boys freedom in the woods with older mentors for practical skills like fire-building and fishing, whereas today's system forces them to sit still under female supervision. The speakers argue that men are required to exert significantly more effort to adhere to modern standards of emotional containment because these behaviors push them further away from their biological set points than women do when adhering to similar norms. A key philosophical framework introduced is John Rawls' thought experiment, which asks what rules one would design for society if they did not know whether they would be born male or female. Applying this lens, the speakers suggest that an educational system designed today with knowledge of sex differences in brain development and rates of ADHD would look vastly different from current structures. While acknowledging that distributions of traits like conscientiousness overlap heavily between sexes, the conversation highlights how these correlations become critical at the extremes. When combining multiple externalizing behaviors—such as aggression, risk-taking, impulsivity, and dominance—the average man exhibits a profile distinct enough to require constant suppression in modern contexts. Consequently, men are described as "white-knuckling their way through domestication," paying an unseen price of emotional containment that is not widely recognized alongside the well-known double shift faced by women. The dialogue explores the validity of feeling that society is stacked against young men who struggle to articulate a clear role or value in modern culture. The speakers observe a growing perception among youth, particularly young men, that they are losing their societal lane and facing headwinds regarding hope for the future and trust within communities. This sentiment often manifests as viewing social progress through a zero-sum lens where women's gains equate to men's losses because of these heightened behavioral constraints. However, the speakers caution against getting hung up on adjudicating which group faces more unfairness; instead, they advocate for recognizing that both groups face unique challenges and costs in navigating contemporary life. The consensus leans toward viewing society as a collective boat where focusing solely on grievances prevents productive solutions for everyone involved. Ultimately, the conversation concludes by shifting focus from debating who suffers more to addressing how society can function better for all its members regardless of gender. While data shows massive overlap between men and women in most traits, the specific combination of externalizing behaviors creates a distinct pressure cooker for males that demands constant effortful suppression. The speakers validate the feelings of unfairness experienced by many young men without dismissing them as mere complaints, acknowledging that these perceptions are real experiences rather than just statistical anomalies. By moving away from adversarial frameworks and toward a perspective where every individual's value is intrinsic, society might find more constructive ways to address the specific headwinds faced by different demographics. The episode ends with an advertisement for Athletic Brewing Co., promoting non-alcoholic options that allow people to enjoy beverages without hangovers or compromise, before directing listeners to access the full discussion online.
Read the full video transcript
Could there be an argument made that the
current push by the mainstream to sort
of dissuade men
from aggression and dominance and
impulsivity
is more unfair genetically than if if
men are on average less domesticated and
appropriate Yeah.
>> for a gentle modern world and does our
behavior needs to be curtailed more than
women's does?
Is that unfair?
Gosh. Um
Is unfair the word that I would use to
that?
So to Well, we're being we're being
we're being asked to modify our behavior
in a manner that women aren't simply
because of what modern society
>> has been Richard Reeves' argument. Um I
don't know if you're familiar with He
wrote a book
>> said in that show.
>> Oh, really? So, you know, like if we're
not going to change schools, then we
should redshirt all the boys and give
them an extra year as the only because
because asking a five-year-old boy to do
developmentally the exact same thing as
a five-year-old girl is an unfair in his
in his comparison.
>> spent a lot of time talking about
dominance and aggression. I want to I
want to go up a level to think if I can
articulate this in terms of sort of like
more general principles and then go back
to your your specific question.
So, in questions like this, when we
think about fair or unfair, just or
unjust,
I'm still very heavily influenced by
Rawls, the political philosopher John
Rawls, and his thought experiment, which
is
if you didn't know
what hand you were going to be dealt in
the natural lottery and in the in the
social lottery,
what rules would you want for society?
And that's an interesting question to
think like if I didn't know whether or
not I was going to be a man or a woman,
would I set school up the way that
school is set up now?
And I can't I I actually wish that I
could like inhabit the mind of a man for
a day just to see like is it really
different? Is it very similar? I'd be
fascinated with that. I can't do that,
but I have a son. I have a child, and so
I can get to
given what I know about sex differences
in
brain development, in rates of ADHD, in
rates of conduct disorder,
how would I design how would I design an
educational system such that my sons and
my daughters would have an equal
opportunity to thrive in them?
And it sure as heck wouldn't be what we
do now. I mean, my son's in middle
school,
and [clears throat] I
I think it's culturally insane what we
do. Like there is no culture on Earth
before industrial capitalism that was
like,
Do you know what we should do with our
12- and 13-year-old pubertal boys?
We should put them inside
all day,
ask them to sit still
with each other, and no older boys, and
no younger kids, and no
responsibilities,
and we should put a 25-year-old woman in
charge of them. Like And we should get
them to learn stuff that they won't be
able to remember a decade later.
>> Like I I whereas he does these once a
month um
like go play in the woods for the whole
day, Yep. and there's no screens, and
there's a bunch of young men, and it's
like we're going to build a fire, and
we're going to carve things out of wood,
and we're going to like catch turtles,
and we're going to fish, and we're going
to
hide in the bushes, and while we're
there, we're going to talk about math,
and we're going to talk about the stars,
and and you can read stuff to prepare
for your Earth Day of day.
>> Well, okay. Maybe maybe Maybe I'll put
it in a different way to unfat. Yeah. Uh
should the additional level of
discipline that males, specifically men,
Yeah. are required
>> that we have lower standards for them?
No, [laughter] no, the opposite. The
opposite. The
uh
emotional containment that men are
forced to do in order to adhere to a
much more domesticated modern world
>> Yeah. takes more effort Yeah.
>> than it does for women.
It just straight up takes more effort
because we are being asked to be further
away from our set point, right? Our
predisposition pushes us in a direction
that modern society has said that we're
not allowed to go in. On average, more
so for There will be more people who
find it harder to do that
>> comport themselves in a way that is that
is considered
>> The the men, yes. There has been what
you could say a feminization of society,
at least in as much as traits that were
more typically on the feminine side of
the
conscientiousness,
orderliness, etc., etc.
Lower risk-taking, lower aggression,
lower dominance.
Does things that
being
selected for. That means that men need
to pay an additional price. You know,
it's more effortful for men to behave in
>> Um and given that, is that something
that should be recognized? Is that a
kind of price? We often talk about the
double shift that women do. Well, women
have worked during the day and then they
come back home, but nobody ever talks
about the additional emotional
containment that men have to do,
especially given their nature.
I mean, so I hm. Gosh, I've never
thought about this before, so all of
everything I'm about to say is
um
I don't have high confidence that I'm
right in anything I'm about to say.
That's just as a as a preface.
>> I should do that before every episode.
>> [laughter]
>> Um
I mean, part of what's difficult for me
to think through that is that the
distributions differ, but they're highly
overlapping. Like most men are in the
range of normal women and most women are
in the range of normal men.
When it comes to conscientiousness or
agreeableness or risk-taking, like the
the sex difference or the gender
difference, depending on how you
conceptualize it in these traits,
is going to be the most evident
At the extremes. Yeah.
>> So, you know, we're we and we do see But
this works all the way around. Like if
you start to squeeze the bracket and
squeeze the window of what is acceptable
>> like outside of the tails, men are
within the female range and women are in
the
>> But on average you're going to have it's
going to be a it is it's going
>> Yeah, but the average I mean, the
distributions are very overlapping. When
you run it across multiple different
traits though, when you're talking
aggression and externalizing behavior
and impulsivity and risk-taking and
dominance, like when you roll all of
those together and this isn't just a
it's someone isn't just aggressive.
Or aggressive and risk-taking, they're
all of these things together and when
you start to lollapalooza this,
there's
almost no woman would be as risk-taking,
aggressive, dominant as the average
>> as the average
>> No, even if you were to
because
on average you have like these massive
overlapping distributions, right? Yeah.
But as soon as you go it's this trait
and this trait and this trait and this
trait
>> But I don't think that's true because
all those things are all correlated with
each other. So, I think even if you
>> Surely it would start to push those I
don't think
>> hills out further.
>> I mean, we could run a simulation to do
that, but I think if you were
envisioning like let's say just three
three traits, some sort of
three-dimensional terrain surface,
I think that what the things that you're
talking about are correlated enough such
that
men and women
are more similar
than is commonly assumed. So, I do think
that there there's just we definitely
clearly see sex sex differences
at the extremes, at the outlying one.
But, in terms of like is your ordinary
experience But, that's Sorry that
different than a a woman in the 60th
percentile? Like,
>> question would be we can only see the
behavior of people who manifest it. Mhm.
And to say, well, this is where the
tails are, how many men should be out on
the tails but are wrangling They're
white-knuckling their way through life.
>> They're white-knuckling their way
through domestication. And they're
thinking, look, modern society says that
I can't behave in that way. I'd really
better not.
That's a price that men have to pay that
women don't. I mean, I think there's a
price to
the I think I'm being hung up on the
price to pay. Like, effort I think that
there's effort
>> of a denial a denial of their nature.
A a type of containment. All I'm All I'm
saying is in in in a modern world that
basically seems to continue to say,
"Unless you're addicted to drugs in jail
or homeless,
you are still from a kind of privileged
background and there is ways that you as
a man aren't even seeing some of the
additional costs that women pay, the
double shifts, the domestic stuff." And
I think some interesting data around
that. Um but,
I think that that is a the unseen cost,
right? Like, that would be the unseen
cost of being a woman, of being a
mother, of the things that you need to
get over.
I'm just seeing if there's any
leeway for sort of guys to have their
own equivalent. Uh their own equivalent,
like source of grievance or like sense
of things are unfair.
Whether or not they should,
they clearly do. Like,
again, I'm not a man. I'm not going to
speak for men. Obviously, you know, the
men that I interact with are
my husband and honestly the the
the the modal man that I interact with
these days is a is a 18-year-old college
student who's in my class.
>> So sorry to hear that.
>> [laughter]
>> And you know, who are really just trying
to figure out like what is this life
thing about? Like what is this adult
thing about? You know, there's whether
or not people should feel like society
is unfair or um
uh society stacked against them.
I don't think any data point, even if I
had them, that I could come up with to
be like, you shouldn't feel like life is
unfair because here's why.
>> Mhm. I think that data is really bad at
counteracting these kinds of like vibes
of feeling like the headwinds of culture
are against you. Mhm.
And everything that I read and all the
data I've seen is that men and young men
in particular feel like they really
struggle to articulate what is my role
in society? Am I valued in society? I I
there used to be a lane for me and now I
don't know what that lane is anymore.
>> Mhm. And
you could think about like, no, you
shouldn't feel that way because like the
distributions are overlapping or like,
yes, you should feel this way because
but like neither one of those really get
at the question about like, well, what
do you do about it? Like, well, also
like this is your personal experience,
but
I mean, I find the the gap between young
men and young women in terms of their
perception of society, of politics, of
hope for the future, of whether or not
they trust each other
to be really
sad and alarming. And I think anytime
you start seeing
society in terms of like a zero-sum
game, like if women are gaining, I'm
losing cuz I'm being asked to do
something that's more against my nature
or if men's problems are given any
airtime, that is unfair because actually
like women are supposed to
Yes, like this
um
I mean, I think it goes back to what I
was talking about earlier with like the
Norwegian crime, which is that like when
we begin from the perspective of
each one of us has value as a human and
we are all we we are all in the same
boat now. Like we're all in this society
together. So, how are we going to make
it work for everyone? That feels like a
much more productive way forward than
trying to adjudicate like which
Should people think it's unfair or not?
Like if they do, you're going to have to
start with that uh like as a starting
point.
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