Video summary
The podcast addresses a contentious tension between sustainable fertility rates and gender egalitarianism, noting why this conversation often triggers immediate accusations of right-wing misogyny or fascism online. The speakers acknowledge that there is indeed a correlation where countries with more traditional gender attitudes tend to have higher birth rates, while progressive feminist movements are currently negatively correlated with fertility metrics. However, the discussion emphasizes that this tension does not need to be intrinsic; rather, many individuals feel trapped between two conflicting desires: supporting women's rights and fearing a low-fertility future dominated by far-right ideologies who might outvote current values. The speakers express sympathy for those feeling caught in this dilemma but argue against accepting it as an inevitable outcome of feminism itself. A central point of disagreement revolves around the definition and implications of pronatalism versus pan-natalism. One speaker identifies as a "pan-natalist," defining the term not as forcing childbirth or encouraging unwanted pregnancies, but simply being in favor of births while respecting individual choices to have children or not. This contrasts with how some on the left interpret pro-natalist rhetoric, often viewing it through the lens of *The Handmaid's Tale* and fearing coercion into "breeding pens." The transcript highlights a stark demographic shift where conservative birth rates (1.67) are significantly higher than liberal ones (dropping from 1.44 to 0.89 since the 1980s), leading some progressives to conclude that having children is incompatible with their political identity, effectively condemning future generations of feminists if they do not reproduce. The dialogue also critiques the performative nature of anti-natalist sentiment among progressive women, suggesting that fears about forced childbirth often stem from a misunderstanding of actual conservative mating patterns rather than genuine policy threats. The speakers point out that far-right men are frequently marrying outside their demographic group to Latin American or Eastern European women, leaving white nationalist communities with few local partners and creating an artificial scarcity narrative. Furthermore, the discussion touches on the psychological aspect where individuals avoid having children because they fear raising them in a future governed by zealots, yet this avoidance paradoxically ensures that those very ideologies will dominate society as progressive voices fade away due to lower birth rates. Ultimately, the conversation concludes with a plea for progressives and feminists to move beyond victim-blaming narratives regarding their low fertility choices. While acknowledging the exhaustion of trying to change hearts and minds in an environment where every step forward is met with accusations of rights violations, the speakers argue that abandoning the effort entirely condemns future generations to inherit a world shaped by those who do not share current values. The proposed solution involves working collaboratively to find a version of feminism or ideology that supports high fertility without sacrificing gender equality, ensuring that no group has to "wash their hands" of humanity and leave behind a toxic culture they helped create but cannot sustain alone.
Read the full video transcript
Why is it the case that having this
conversation is so unpopular on the
internet and immediately gets thrown the
right-wing conservative
misogyny, the fascism. Why do those
arguments get thrown around so quickly?
>> I think people
understand correctly that there can be
there certainly can be and often in fact
there is a tension between
sustainable fertility rates
and the gender egalitarianism that I
think most of us cherish, right? That
like
I'm I'm not like a radical left
feminist, but like I do want my wife to
be able to vote and own property and
have the right to like the police hear
her out if I'm beating her or something.
Like I'm, you know, like little e
egalitarian in that sense.
Um, and a lot of people fear very
sincerely. They say, "Well, I would I do
worry about low fertility."
But I would never say so publicly
because
you know I stand with women and the
pronatalists want to force women to stay
barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. Um
and and I I mean I'm sympathetic to that
and and unfortunately some Fridays of
pronatalism have tended to play into
that. Um, the reality is and and there's
and there's genuine tension. I mean, it
is true that a lot of the most sexist
countries in the world have the highest
birth rates. It is true that within
society people with more traditional
gender attitudes have higher birth
rates.
Um, these are all true things. There's
real tension between certain gender
models and high fertility. Now, does it
have to be intrinsic tension? Can we
find a way through it to the other side?
I hope so and I think that's what what
you all talked about as well is that you
want your progressive friends to be
having kids so that their values can
survive in the future, too.
Um,
and so
I think there's a lot of people who
feel rightly or wrongly feel trapped
between two things they want. Okay, they
they don't love the idea of a low
fertility future, but they also feel
like they don't have an option other
than to like, well, if a low fertility
future is the only way to protect the
fact that like I'm a woman and I
basically want to have rights,
then like screw fertility. Who cares?
Or you know, trust that it'll get solved
somehow and just don't think about it.
So
And I think on some level pronatalists
have not always done a great job and I
probably I would count myself in this to
some extent of
uh
of trying to communicate that
yes, right now
feminism broadly construed is pretty
strongly negatively correlated with
fertility. It is on almost any metric.
But we don't know that it has to be. We
don't know that there's not a future
version of feminism that's pronatal. We
don't know that such an
ideology couldn't be invented. The
problem is most of the people who
self-identify identify as feminists
won't even try.
So they won't even try to come up with a
version of the ideology that's pronatal.
So and there are people are like
Leia Sergeant has a great book on this
where she's tried. Um but
uh
Um so I would say I agree with a little
what you're saying, but I'm a little I'm
a little more sympathetic to people who
feel between a rock and a hard place.
>> Well, I think the other the other point
here is that it's obvious what you need
to give up now and it's not obvious what
the costs will be in future. And for the
most part you're not going to pay them,
right? And if you're not intending on
having kids or if fewer people around
you are intending on having kids, then
you're not even attached to people who
might be having to pay them. So it's
having to give up something that you
want in order for something that you're
being told that future people need.
We're not good at in a society at doing
that at the moment. That the the old
staving off and the delayed
gratification.
>> value gender egalitarianism and then you
have daughters and then you learn that
the future is going to be one where like
all the crazy far right people had all
the babies and they're going to outvote
you and now your daughters live out
Handmaid's Tale. Okay, like this as
silly as that sounds to like my rational
brain,
I personally know people who really
think that's what's going to happen.
That any kid they have is just going to
be like governed by zealots. And so
they're like, "Well, I don't want that
for my kid and I'm not going to have
them."
>> if feminists stop having kids,
>> there will be no feminists left.
>> this is where I'm like
be the change you wish to see in the
world and you can prevent forced
childbirth.
>> the gap, the mean change the mean
children by ideology. Conservatives at
1.67,
which has actually gone up since the
1980s.
>> Yeah.
>> And liberals from 1.29, which was nearly
the same, 1.44 to 1.29 1980 conservative
to liberal, to now 1.67
to 0.87. So, yeah.
>> to be the case
from
well put together surveys that let's say
90% ish of people at some point in life
either have or want kids.
>> Yeah.
>> That's not all right wingers. 90% is
pretty much everybody.
I think the issue here is that
the left have found it more challenging
because of the frictions
uh with some of their traditional
beliefs to come up with a narrative here
that enables them to come up with some
form of voice and I think people on the
right uh and I will say also I'm not
pronatalist. That surprises a lot of
people. I'm a researcher. I call myself
pan-natalist.
And a pan-natalist is someone uh who
supports people to have the kids they
they want to have but also respects
people who choose not to.
>> Oh, we do, too. It's great.
>> Okay, I think that's pan-natalism.
>> I would call that pronatalism, but
>> Yeah.
>> No, we only want people who like kids to
have kids.
>> I think pronatalism to me is interpreted
rightly or wrongly as people who would
encourage
others to have kids.
And I would encourage people to think
about it. I don't know if that's a new
>> is a fetish on the left. That is all
these women who are like, "Oh, Mr.
Trump, don't send me to the Mar-a-Lago
breeding pens."
Why are they wearing those Handmaid's
Tale costumes? Cuz it is it's hot. When
you look at what women read in romance
novels, don't breed me, sir. This is
it's not real. No one is asking
progressive women to have kids. When you
look at like far-right conservative men
who are marrying women, they're marrying
women from Latin America. They're
wearing women from Eastern Europe. They
are not wearing marrying progressive
white women. There's that return to land
colony in the Ozarks. It's for whites
only and they have to keep saying to the
men, "Sorry, like you have to actually
marry a white woman if you want to come
here." And they can't get any men who
are far-right conservative white
nationalists who have married white
women because they're they're not there.
I I'm just saying this is fake. This
whole like pronatalism where we want you
to have kids. No. Don't have kids.
>> So
>> If you want kids, have them. But
otherwise, you can just not inherit the
future. All right? Because they've
screwed it. They've screwed it. This is
a toxic culture. We have to wash our
hands of it. We have to take to the
stars and leave them behind. That's it.
>> So I think
I So I would what you call pan-natalism.
Yeah, I would that's how I would
describe pronatalism, okay? I don't
think pronatalism means forcing people
to have unwanted children. I think it
means
um
pronatalism, pro meaning in favor of
natal meaning births. It means you're in
favor of births.
In practice, I would say you're a
pronatalist if you support actually
doing things that helps people actually
have more kids.
>> I think the problem with that, Simone,
is that there's
it's all well and good kind of
victim blaming people and saying you
believe in ideology that's
self-defeating. Because of your belief
in it, you have been sci-op'ed or gaslit
into not wanting something or
having a life that doesn't permit you to
have this thing despite the fact that
90%
of women have or want kids. So, it seems
to me that I understand if you've been
in the trenches as you and your husband
have for a long time that you go, "All
right, I'm [ __ ] done. I can't the the
the project to like try try and change
hearts and minds. I've kind of lost
faith in that." I get it. I understand
why you might be exhausted at doing
that. But, that is condemning a huge
swath of women who are left of center
who and men. Yeah, of course, who
because for each, you know, the two to
tango. Like
you are condemning those people to kind
of be at the mercy of an ideology that
you think is bad. And I don't know. I I
would like to think that we can try and
sort of stir the pot to bring some of
the silt up and go, "Hey,
maybe what you believe is good in many
ways for the world. But, also perhaps
it's got some side effects that
even the people that are espousing it
aren't going to embody. Like these
people are endorsing beliefs that they
don't embody and they're leaving you
behind and
it would be important to get you on
side. One of the things I worry about if
you say, like, "Hey, if you're on the
left and you don't think that kids are
good,
go [ __ ] yourself cuz my kids are going
to inherit the earth." Like I get it.
But, that's not actually what would be
true if you were to continue to try and
do the hearts and minds change thing.
And again, for every step that you take
forward, there's 10 people saying,
"You're trying to take rights away,
force handmaids tale, etc. etc. etc."
And I get why that would be exhausting,
but I think
trying to work out how to bring people
into this because if you really care
about birth rates overall, you should be
trying to get as big of a bucket as
possible to scoop everybody up in.
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