The Collapse of the Veganism Movement

Millions of people have been switching to a plant-based lifestyle in recent years. >> By 2020, the plant-based movement had hit peak popularity. >> An exploding movement of elite athletes are utilizing vegan diets to heal [music] injuries, speed recovery times, and enhance their performance. >> This plant-based trend is real. It's here. There's real serious demand. >> Beyond Meat, the [music] best performing IPO so far this year, up 100. >> The message was clear. This [music] was so of the mainstream that suddenly being vegan was cool. But then enthusiasm began to wne [music] and the movement basically collapsed. Beyond Stock plummeted more than 99%. >> So what the [ __ ] happened? Well, today we're going to talk about it. My name is Rich Roll. I'm a podcaster. I'm an author. I'm also an ultra endurance athlete. And I've been plant-based [music] for the better part of 20 years. My name is Simon Hill. I have a master's in nutrition science. [music] I'm also a podcaster and I'm the author of the book The Proof is in the plants. So, the purpose of this episode is essentially to understand what happened, how we got here, where we [music] go from here, and do an honest autopsy on [music] all the things that contributed to the faltering of this movement. So, I'm not sure where to begin. Maybe you have an overarching theory on this, Simon. >> I think like most things, there's a multitude of of factors. The cultural waters that we're swimming in today feel very different to 2020. >> Sure. >> And I guess the first thing that I would say from a a nutrition science perspective is I don't think the evidence or the science has has shifted. >> Mhm. >> But culture certainly has. And I agree with you, the vibe, especially in the media and and online, has changed a lot with regards to how we think about a vegan diet, what being vegan means, or a plant-based diet. And certainly a lot of energy has shifted towards more animal-based carnivore style diets. I think one of the things that's really hurt the message to eat more plants are stories like Beyond Meat where there was enormous hype and deep investment into a category of foods which I think if we're doing an honest audit we can say to date have have failed to live up to the hype. >> Mhm. And that category of foods, I think in 2020, we we knew that it in order for it to compete with meat, it needed to compete on taste and and price. And if you look in terms of what's transpired in the last five or six years, I don't think it's gotten to par. Certainly not on price. If you look at the price of of plant-based meat alternatives relative to say chicken, which is the most popular meat in this country, we're talking two or three times more expensive per pound. And we're in a an environment now where there's a lot of inflationary pressure. People have less money to spend at the grocery store, particularly lowincome um households. And at the same time, I don't think these foods created parody in terms of their taste experience. So when you have pressure on household budgets and the the food is much more expensive, the the taste is not at par, it kind of makes sense that those products are not going to make their way into the the the grocery um the shopping cart. And then you throw on top of that the narrative and discussion we've had around ultrarocessed foods over the last five or six years which I think is an important discussion but there is some nuance and context which is often left out. Um but I think that explains why a company like Beyond Meat hasn't performed. But what I would say is we have to be careful kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water there because it this would be akin to kind of saying look what's happened to Pelaton. Pelaton's stock has tanked and yet we we don't say fitness is over or cycling's over. >> It's it's it's one example of a of a company whose model hasn't survived in this current environment and Beyond Meat is that. Yet underneath that, I think the the message around eating more plant-based, particularly whole or minimally processed plant foods, being healthy, protecting you from the the types of chronic diseases that are affecting a lot of people in this country in America and in Australia is is just as true and strong as ever, if not stronger, with more evidence being published over the last 5 years. >> The way I see it, I agree with you. There's a there's a multitude of factors that have contributed to uh this situation, but I see it breaking down into three primary categories, all of which you you just referenced. One, there have been significant cultural and political shifts that have changed people's perspectives on um diet and nutrition. Uh that I consider to be the third. The second is that vegans can be their own worst enemies in the way they comport themselves and carry this message. Uh and the first and what you were just speaking about is a lack of honesty and transparency around the health implications of living the plant-based lifestyle and eating a diet that is devoid of animal products. When you look at Beyond Meat or Impossible Foods or Oatley, like the stock prices of these companies are in the tank and grocery stores that used to have gigantic sections devoted to plant-based milks or meat and dairy alternatives have shrunk. The appetite for these products has been reduced. And it does have a lot to do with the way that the health benefits or health implications of these products were communicated publicly. And I think there's culpability with the influential members of this movement in carrying that message less responsibly than they could. I think that when you look at them, you can make the argument that they are healthier in the wash in comparison to their animal versions of them. But the communication was presenting them as health foods when in fact most of them are pretty highly processed foods. And I think people felt gas lit a little bit like they're being fed a lie that was pretty transparent. And that led to a breach of trust between the public and the people who were kind of most influential in the movement. Um, and I think that that contributed to people kind of breaking up with whatever short-term affair they had or flirtation they had with eating a more plant predominant diet. Yeah. I think the the phrase that that I heard a lot and I've used it myself is transition foods for for these types of foods. Um because if you look at the research on on plant-based dietary patterns and these health outcomes, you're right, it's not looking at that category of ultrarocessed foods. People in populations of the world that are eating plants and living long lives are eating more legumes and beans and lentils and tofus and chickpeas, they're not eating beyond burger. They're not eating uh oat. So I think that's a that's a fair summary. Um that said, I think a lot of the educators in this space have felt that it's unrealistic to get people to give up chicken and red meat and just eat beans and lentils. >> Sure. So, let's give them uh a palatable alternative that will acclimate them to this way of eating. But what gets missed in that is the fact that the healthiest version of this way of eating is eating these plant foods closest to their natural state. And then it became all about like palatability. And you know, everywhere you turn, there was a new like coconut ice cream or like this kind of cookie or cracker or burger or chicken nugget. And these things are tantamount to just eating a fast food diet essentially. And the idea that you're doing something uh healthier than you were before isn't actually isn't actually correct. And when I think about the plant-based lifestyle, there's three on-ramps to this. You can be motivated or incentivized by the ethical considerations like you you would like to opt out of participating in this cycle of suffering that is incident to you know industrialized factory farming where billions of animals are slaughtered every year. Uh there are the sustainability and environmental considerations of eating a diet that is a little gentler on the planet. And then thirdly, there are the health reasons. And I think in terms of the health benefits or health implications of this diet, there was some bungling around the messaging. >> Yeah. on behalf of people who were predominantly motivated by the other concerns, be they environmental or ethical, uh that that created a sort of um like, you know, this is good for people and I'm going to contextualize it in a way that is going to make it attractive to them, but isn't exactly completely honest. Yeah, there's you run the risk of uh kind of convincing yourself that I'm going to oversimplify things for the for the greater good here to the to the person that's receiving the information. But in the process of that, you're not being completely objective and you lose trust. And more specifically what I mean there is and I outline in my book and of the three things that you just mentioned the three kind of on-ramps to eating a plant exclusive plant-based vegan diet whatever you want to say the the strongest argument is ethical and the sustainable argument. >> Yeah for sure >> uh it's it's very hard impossible to make the argument based on human health alone. When you look at the nutrition science itself, there are a variety of different dietary patterns that lead to great health outcomes. Mediterranean diet, the mind diet, the DASH diet, vegetarian, vegan, all done in in a healthful way with the focus on un unprocessed, minimally processed foods can all be very healthy and deliver great health outcomes. And we don't have the definitive research to say that the plant exclusive diet is significantly better than than the other ones. And as you say, I think that that message uh was lost [snorts] uh in the communication from some folks who who their intentions are are good. The intention is pure. It is that you know they care about the the welfare of animals and the sustainability of the planet. So simplifying the message is an easy thing for people to >> reduce it down to something, you know, that is easy to remember uh that's somewhat reductive uh but also dismissive of people's legitimate concerns. Like to say like don't worry about B12, don't worry about protein, don't worry about the like it it's it's all going to be fine. Just like do this and you don't have to worry about it isn't exactly uh responsible or correct. And I think we can both say that based upon our personal experience. You as a scientist and also somebody who's been plant-based for a very long time and myself as again somebody who's been doing this for almost two decades and has been an athlete and the like like we've lived it. also think that there there's a level of humility that's required here that just says look the nutrition science can tell us a lot and we get typical results average results but at an individual level I don't know if if if a a vegan diet works for absolutely everyone if 100% plant-based works for absolutely everyone and we can communicate what the science shows in terms of average typical results But ultimately, we shouldn't have someone feel uh guilty or shameful if they weren't able to get there and they feel better on on a plant predominant diet for for example. And so I think some of the the communication around absolutes rather than kind of meeting people where they're at and encouraging people to to add more fiber, more plants to the diet and find a way of eating that is sustainable while at the same time being better from an animal welfare perspective, gentler on the planet. Uh, I feel like that is more empathetic and would be better received by a a population. >> Yeah, I can cop to some culpability around that. Um, I've never judged people or taken their inventory or shamed them or kind of engaged in in in in that kind of, you know, rhetorical strategy. But I know that I have been reductive in my communication and I've also um advocated uh on behalf of this lifestyle based upon my personal experience like extrapolating from that like I feel so much better. So then you will too without fully appreciating the the fact that everybody kind of has a different physiology and what works for me isn't necessarily going to work for you. like I think I didn't adequately um appreciate that in the way that I have communicated uh in the past. >> I think that's an important share and I think we can all get excited by how our N equals 1 experience and want to share it and the intent is good. >> You want to evangelize. Oh my god, like this happened. I feel so great. I want everyone to feel this good. Like do this and you'll feel the same way. And then somebody does it, they have a different experience and then your instinct is well you're not doing it right. like uh you maybe you didn't do this or you didn't do that. Like you're going to dismiss their differential as as as being the result of them not doing it exactly the way that you did instead of just saying, "Well, maybe you're different and maybe this isn't going to work for you." And by the way, that's the same thing that can occur when someone eats a carnivore diet or a keto diet and they jump on across the board >> and they're enthusiastic and sharing about their experience and the results they had in the short term. And so at the same time that also leaves me feeling kind of understanding and empathetic of that individual and what might promote someone to go online. and and the the difference between these different types of anecdotes. I bring it back to the overwhelming body of evidence, which is that >> that's why you're here. >> The dietary patterns, there are anecdotes everywhere we can pull and there's enthusiasm everywhere. And I think that's great because underneath that is people wanting to share because they want others to get the benefits they felt. The evidence base tells us that consistently the people that are doing best over decades are people that are eating these high-fiber plant predominant style diets that are lower in saturated fats and are lower in in ultrarocessed foods. >> Mhm. So the reckoning here is is basically uh owning the fact that a lack of transparency or perhaps just a uh a communication strategy um that that that includes the nuance and avoids the reductive claims would have maintained a degree of trust that perhaps would have been better. and not left people feeling like they weren't being um lied to or misdirected. Yeah. >> Or influenced in a way that was based upon some other agenda that wasn't uh you know that wasn't on the surface. >> Totally. I also think you know from my seat and I think it's important on these types of things for everyone to think about where are you responsible. I feel culpable in that I coming into this space, you know, as someone who is a bit younger than some of the people putting information out ahead of me, uh, have found times where I tiptoe around things and haven't really found like the strength in my voice to communicate uh, in response to some of the observations that you've seen where in my view there has been irresponsible kind of education around things like protein or vitamin B12 12 or eating a very very lowfat [music] plant-based diet. >> The types of things that can set someone up to to fail. So, I think there's a space to for me to have respectful dialogue about those things instead of focusing so much of my attention on what is the low carb community doing. One of the things I hear constantly from people in this community is, "I have an idea, but I don't know where to start." To which I say, "Whatever you imagine is holding you back exists only in your imagination." 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Learn more and schedule a demo drive near you at rivan.com. [music] I too have platformed people on the podcast, these advocates of a plant-based lifestyle, a vegan way of eating, who I later discovered were more motivated by the ethical considerations. These were people who are fundamentally animal rights activists who came onto the podcast or wrote books um supporting the health considerations behind eating this way. And that's not so great like to reflect back and realize like I participated in something that lacked that degree of transparency. And again, these are people that I like and I think they have the best of intentions, but I think the fact that they decided to communicate a health message that that was really kind of a Trojan horse for an ethical message isn't in the best service of the public >> because I think people can kind of they kind of know, you know what I mean? And so I've trafficked in that in the past. And in recent years I've been very careful to avoid that because although I love this lifestyle and I've been thriving on it and you [snorts] know I encourage people to try it, I think the trust that I have with my audience is paramount and I don't want to participate in platforming somebody that is putting me in a position where that trust is going to get eroded. >> Yeah. For example, you know, some of that messaging historically, if we're if we're to make this specific, has been, you know, around foods like dairy all being unhealthy or poison or causing cancer or all animal protein at any dose being problematic. >> And the reality is when you when you look at the science when it comes to dairy, it's very context dependent. The dose matters. The type of dairy, is it fermented? Foods like yogurt and cheese tend to be neutral or perhaps healthy depending on the population. Animal protein itself is such an umbrella term when you break it down. Fatty fish tends to be healthy, neutral. Is it better or worse than legumes? We don't really have a signal there. But the issue issue is when you overstate it and say speak in absolutes that fish is a problem for health. All dairy is a problem for health. And as you say, I think people are people are quite astute and [clears throat] um eventually the truth surfaces. And when it does surface that hang on, fatty fish could be could be beneficial or neutral, some types of dairy, aren't poison, dose matters, then you start to question everything that that person was saying. >> And that's when that the the trust. >> Yeah. That's a setup for the movement to falter because it can't be it can't it can't when it sits upon a faulty foundation a foundation of some degree of of mistrust then you know it's not going to thrive. And so if you want it to thrive having a conversation like this is important to you know kind of recalibrate people and set the stage for an open and honest discourse. However, the the the feedback you get is interesting here because if you speak in the absolute kind of extreme way, >> the initial feedback you get is a reward. It's longterm. We're seeing the repercussions now, right? >> But initially that absolute language was absolutely embraced by the vegan community. And I know from my early days, like even publishing my book, I got email after email from from people who are are um ethical vegans who didn't love my message of of context and nuance because it felt like I was leaving the door open that I wasn't being firm enough with my language and and um through correspondence I would, you know, where where I did have correspondence with these people, I would explain that my job was to convey the nutrition science objectively, But I think the trap is that back in 2020 leading with that absolute language was embraced and you were kind of platformed and elevated and so the immediate fe feedback was positive. >> Well, it's the incentive structure of the attention economy. Like if you want to stand out and get attention, you have to speak in absolutes and you have to be very definitive in the claims that you're making and they need to be articulated with great confidence. And the less room you leave for nuance or any kind of uh defense or retort, the better positioned you are to be an advocate, like the tip of the spear for this movement. So with that incentive structure, of course, we're seeing and we see it writ large in every category, not just nutrition. People who are making very bold claims about whatever it is with a great degree of confidence. And there's something about that that appeals to our amygdala, like our lizard brain likes that. We want complicated, nuanced, messy ideas to be reduced down to something that we can understand, that we're going to remember, and that we can put into practice. It makes our life simpler. It eradicates all the uncertainty, and it makes us feel like we have agency and control over our lives. >> Yeah, we're we're conflating the absolute language with competence in that in that respect. But the job of a scientist is to convey the degree of certainty and uncertainty. And right >> everything has a degree of greyness. >> You know a good scientist when you ask them a question and they say well it's complicated or it depends or I need the context. What people like is somebody who says let me tell you what what you need to do. Here's all you need to know. Do this. it'll all take care of it and everything is going to be fantastic. Um, and you, you know, in your advocacy and in the proof podcast, like you have these incredibly um, sophisticated scientists who are like in the trenches doing all the research. They're deep into the data and every time they're like, "Well, it's complicated. If it's this, it's this. But sometimes it's this and we're not really sure about this." And people don't like that. But that's science and that's reality. >> Yeah. And I mean, you're right. It's it's it's carved me out of niche in the podcast world, but if you look at my >> But there's trust. >> If you look at my listener ship, though, like if we're being completely candid, it's pretty small compared to a lot of the health and wellness shows that we know. And >> but if you just made YouTube videos where you were in your kitchen and you're like, "Here's what you need to eat. If you eat this, you're never going to have to worry about your inflammation or, you know, whatever it is." is like just making these claims with great confidence. >> Like you could grow a big channel around that, but >> that's not being honest. That's not what you do. And what you're doing is a service because you're giving people a way of understanding the science and an appreciation for how challenging these things are. And that should engender trust in the scientific process. Like these things are complicated. These people have devoted their entire lives trying to understand this. this is what we know. Here's what um is repeatable in these experiments. And so we have a higher degree of confidence that this is true and these are the things that we're not so sure of. >> Right. [laughter] Let me throw back to you. I'll try and I'll try and let me try and distill my philosophy in nutrition into something that's packaged up because I think we can have the the nuance and the context conversations, but we also need to deliver something that people can grab a hold of. And I don't think this is that complicated even though it respects the nuance. Choose a plant predominant diet. Mediterranean, pescatarian, vegetarian, vegan. Base it on minimally processed foods. Try not to eat a lot of ultrarocessed packaged foods. Low carb, moder, high carb, whatever leaves you feeling best. If you're also interested in the environmental impact of your diet and animal welfare, try to adopt that dietary pattern in a way that is as plant exclusive as possible. Or you could reduce that one layer down further to what Michael Pollen says, which is eat real food, not too much, mostly plants. There we go. Or eat real food, mostly plants, not too much or something like that. You know what I mean? >> That kind of encapsulates it. if if if you need that that like really reduced uh down to its essence message. >> Totally. >> Um and within that, like you're saying, mostly they're not they're still not absolutes, you know what I mean? Um so again, just to kind of recap this fundamental problem. Um let's try to be a little bit more honest, a little more transparent. I think the fear is like, oh, if we're opening the door, to your point, um, that's going to leave people like an exit and they're going to take that exit. But I think if you're actually honest about these things and you treat people, your audience with respect and um and with the confidence that they can synthesize this information, uh you're building that trust and you're creating a situation in which they're more likely to explore this because they feel like you're an honest broker. >> Couldn't agree more. >> Yeah. In the hierarchy of all of this, there was the discourse around supplementation and protein. A lot of uh hand ringing over not worrying about protein. You don't have to worry about it. Um protein has never been uh something that I've had to be too concerned about. And maybe I'm just like some kind of hyper adopter or some adapter or something like that. like I can work out hard and it hasn't historically been an issue for me where I have to be hypervigilant about my protein intake, but I've come to appreciate that this is not the case for everybody. And I think a lot of the messaging um at that time was that protein is just something you don't really have to worry about. If you're just grazing on plants, it will take care of itself. >> Yeah. The message really was like everything takes care of itself other than B12. You know, even some people may may have been saying that you didn't need to supplement vitamin B12. But the reality is, let's just say you start with like a Mediterranean diet, which arguably is in a lot of the dietary guidelines and promoted by a lot of dietitians globally because it's a healthpromoting dietary pattern that also reduces the risk of nutrient shortfalls. But if you take that pattern and you say, "Okay, now we're going to eliminate sources of of animal protein." There are some things that you need to be aware of. And depending on what you swap the fish and the chicken and the meat for, that will affect whether you're getting enough protein and micronutrients in particular, like omega-3s and iodine and vitamin B12 and zinc. And so I I think the message that protein just takes care of itself was oversimplified. I think for some people who work out a lot and are eating a lot of calories and they're swapping the the sources of animal protein for legumes, then yeah, probably end up getting enough protein. But if you're removing these animal foods and instead just eating fruit and vegetables, there is a reality of underconuming protein. >> So yes, you need to be sensible and eat tofu and tempeh and edamame and chickpeas and beans and lentils and etc. That uh group of plant foods that are higher in protein are going to be better swaps when you take the animal protein out than than eating, you know, more fruit, for example. >> Mhm. And at the same time, I think there are a range of micronutrients, many that I just listed off, plus omega-3s that most people eating a plant exclusive diet will benefit from supplementing with a multivitamin. Now, it's not everyone, cuz some people follow their diet very closely and are measuring out the amount of chia seeds and flax seeds that they're having and are having different types of seaweed for iodine. And sure, those people are are strategically getting some of those micronutrients like plant-based omega-3s and iodine, and they may not need to supplement with as much. But for the average person who is super busy with work and kids and all the things, when you just shift to a plant-based diet, particularly if it's overnight, a multivitamin is a great insurance policy to make sure that your body has an optimal status of those micronutrients, which are really important and are going to affect how someone feels and are going to affect someone's ability to feel good and want to sustain that diet past two months, three months, a year, you know, into, you know, you've been following this diet now for what, 15 years or so. >> Mhm. Yeah. And if you're eating uh plant-based burgers and plant-based chicken nuggets and plant-based lasagna with like, you know, some like processed dairy alternative cheese and like all that kind of stuff and thinking, well, like I'm eating a plant-based diet. Like I'm eating a healthier diet. Like this is not a healthier diet. And I think we would have benefited from a little more caution in the communication around not confusing that with what you're talking about, which is eating this plant predominant diet with these plant foods in great diversity close to their natural state. I think again the a lot of the the educators in the space because they were coming from the ethical kind of side of this conversation. The >> the assumption was that if you're telling people they need to be aware of protein and that protein's important, they're going to keep eating the animal foods because society very much sees the, you know, animal foods as as protein. And you know, we've been having the conversation around do plants contain protein and is is it incomplete for for decades now at this point. So, >> and this coincided with an increase in people's obsession with protein um motivated uh in no small part by the meat and dairy lobbies who invested a lot of money in making people concerned about this at the same time. And I have mixed feelings about that because I mean we've spoken about this ad nauseium on this show, but protein is important and psychopenia and loss of muscle is a real problem. It's affecting metabolic health. It's affecting physical independence. But if you look at what's driving that in in America, it's not a lack of protein. It's a sedentary lifestyle. >> Mhm. >> And we don't need to unpack that cuz we've done it before. and gone through all of the clinical trials, but the the stimulus isn't there from the resistance training for most people. Um, which is what's required to build and maintain muscle mass. And the average person has more than enough protein to do that. >> Mhm. The problem isn't the protein. The problem is your lack of moving your body. But over the last say 3 years with with this kind of protein obsession that you're you're talking about, a lot of that message has been a doubling down on the importance of animal protein. >> And I've pushed back on that a lot because I think it is a distraction. It's a distraction from if if someone really wants to reduce their risk of psychopenia and have better metabolic health, they they need to start moving their body against resistance. They don't need to be focusing on eating more animal protein because they're already getting enough protein. >> Yeah, >> there's a pretty good chance you've cottoned on to this channel and pulled up this podcast because you've [music] got goals. You aspire to be better, to eat better, to have more energy, to be more consistent. All of this is great, but you got to have an actual plan or all your good intentions will soon tend [music] to drift. And that is what I appreciate about Prolon. 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You're going to want to upgrade, and you can do that by going to livemus.com/rich [music] where you can use my code richoll for up to 35% off your first order. All right, let's move on to factor number two, and that is that vegans can be their own worst enemy. Nobody likes a scold. Nobody uh enjoys being in the company of somebody who's carrying themselves with an air of moral superiority. And I think the movement has suffered from the fact that so many people who are carrying this message are doing it in an off-putting way that makes people turned off and not want to have anything to do with this. >> In some way, the labels create that, don't they? They just create a wall and a division. Mhm. We all want our community, you know, we want to have an identity or an association with some kind of um group that makes us feel like our life has meaning. And I think there is I would say at the outset something really beautiful about the ardent animal activists sensitivity. I think some people are born with a higher degree of sensitivity and they just walk the planet like just a gasast that this reality is going on all around us and nobody is talking about it. Like why aren't we doing anything about the fact that billions of these animals are being slaughtered and treated so horribly and [snorts] it's so um uncomfortable for them that they feel they have no choice but to talk about it. and and there the fact that like no one else is seeing it the way that they see it or feeling it as deeply as they feel it is is um frustrating for them, you know. And so when they do their best to communicate it and that message is not received in the way that they would like, it creates uh even more like anger and resentment and it becomes this vicious cycle. But the fact of the matter is this is not an effective uh uh communication strategy or campaign strategy. You're not going to recruit people into your cause by taking their inventory and telling them that they're living their life wrong. And so the movement could use a little um training in human psychology and rhetoric if if [snorts] it wants to survive and thrive. In other words, if you want people to be interested in what you're interested in, then you have to show an interest in them and stop judging them and pitch a big tent and put out a very big welcome mat and allow people in and model it as aspirational rather than uh some kind of martyrdom. Yeah, I mean this is this is not my primary area of expertise, but I would say just from a human perspective, we all want to feel understood and heard and we we don't want to feel as though we're being lectured to, >> right? >> Or be made to feel that we're wrong and and you're right. Um and so the interesting thing is though that you said that it's ineffective. I would say I would agree with you. I think that it is it is ineffective at scale but it's it is effective for a minority. So everyone has the the kind of example of where that approach that more staunch approach it, you know, quote unquote has converted some people. >> Mhm. >> For whatever reason. But in the net, how many people is it alienating for the one person that it recruits? >> A lot of people. >> I mean, sanctimony and shaming is not an effective rhetorical strategy. >> No. So, what would your what would your suggestion be for the person who is currently uh finding themselves in that place that you're talking about where they just feel so frustrated that people are going about their life as if this is not even happening? um and are completely disconnected from the food they're eating and where it's coming from. What would your advice be for more effective communication? >> Well, the first thing that I would say is I would couch what I just said by saying that we need all types of advocacy. And there's something about the very ardent like revolutionary hardcore rights activist that is important and essential in in the democratic process because we need people out there who are willing to show us where the line is and where we've crossed it. I think they play a vital role. So I'm not saying we shouldn't have those people or nobody should be that. And I think if you're wired in a certain way and that's the way you feel most passionate about carrying your message, then you should be that. I'm just saying in the in the whole to your point like this is not winning hearts and minds. what you're doing is sounding an alarm and we need to hear that alarm and we can dismiss it or disagree with it but those people whether it's you know whatever whatever uh wrong they're trying to write this is not just with respect to animal rights activists with you know with anything that is going on out there I think these people are vital for a healthy society so I'm not I'm not disparaging them or dismissing them and certain people are wired for that and if you're wired for that then you should go do that I'm just saying that it's not a great campaign strategy for winning hearts and minds. [snorts] And if you're thinking about how you want to carry the message or what feels right to you, I mean, I my way, which suits me and my personality, is to not get into judging people or being alarmist, but to rather model it as aspirational and make it appealing to people so they're attracted to it. Like there's a there's a phrase in AA which is attraction rather than promotion. like don't promote your idea. Make it attractive by modeling it in a in a certain way that makes people want to know more about it and they come to you and then you say, "Well, I'm not out there like trying to convert people, but if you're interested, I'll tell you all about it and this is how I do it and this is how I've been able to do these things and you could do it, too. And if you're interested, I'll help you do it." And people feel seen and heard. They feel respected. They don't feel like they're being um sold something. They feel like their curios curiosity is being is being honored and respected, I guess, is what I'm saying. And there's something to be said about how you leave someone feeling. So, you know, I I know that when someone leaves me feeling good and uplifted and the that's the energy that they're bringing to to our relationship, I want to spend more time with that person. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I want to spend more time with that person. I want a bit more of what they have, you know? Whereas if someone >> that I'm relating to is frustrated and angry and and upset and bitter and leaving me feel shamed or or guilty of it makes sense like I I'm probably going to want to lessen my time around that person and probably not want to be part of the community or group that they're a part of. >> I think you can marry these two sensibilities. uh like being somebody who who has a very strong belief around an ethic and also is is is smart and sophisticated on how they communicate that message. And when I think about that, I think about what Billy Isish is doing. Like she kind of went viral when she said, "You can love animals and you can eat them, but you can't do both. I'm sorry." Like she's just very like clear. This is how I feel about this. and like you know people can be mad or whatever but that's my position. At the same time she uh and support and feed the organization that she has with her mom uh is feeding millions of people plant-based meals at some of the biggest concert venues in the world. Like every concert that she plays, they're making these foods available to people as as an offering. Like, hey, check it out. It tastes good. like we're not telling you you have to eat this going forward or you can't eat these other things. We're just feeding you. You know what I mean? Without without any kind of condition around it. And so the big the not just a big tent like the biggest tent, a big welcome mat while also like basically having a lot of clarity around like what you stand for. >> She's being unapologetic. >> Yeah. >> In her truth. If you find yourself judging somebody else or attacking their point of view, maybe do a little bit of reflection. Like we're all flawed and nobody is going to live up to like whatever purity test you've set for them and nobody wants to take that test either. And people want to be to your point like around people that make them feel good. and you can make people feel good and seen and heard and honored while also like without thinking that you're transgressing your like moral point of view. Um, so I think it's just a matter of taking that sensitivity, that compassion that comes so easy for the animals and understanding that human beings are animals too. and maybe channeling that compassion towards the person who disagrees with you. And then finally, I would say let's stop with the vegan onvegan crime. You know, like the vegans who are attacking other vegans because they're not as vegan as they are or not living up to the, you know, like absolutely impossible to live up to vegan purity test. It's not helpful to see people within the movement attacking each other for not doing it the way that they think it should be done. [snorts] >> Yeah. There's a lot of people that are ostracized within the community. >> Yeah. So outsiders see that and then they like, well, these people can't even like they're not even like on the same page and they want me to get on their page or that page when they're still trying to sort it out amongst themselves. That is not an effective um message of attraction. If you got 80% of the population to do meatless Mondays, that's way better than convincing uh 1% of the population to go 100% vegan. >> You know what I mean? So, like understand the value proposition at play and know that when you've got somebody who is interested in what you're saying, that person potentially represents uh sparing animals their lives and don't, you know, alienate them and destroy that opportunity because this there are stakes to these conversations. And so when somebody isn't isn't uh you know entirely on your page like find a way to communicate with them compassionately uh rather than alienate them unnecessarily. >> Yeah. >> Don't be a dick. Don't be an [ __ ] and stop being annoying. >> Perfect. So the third and and final factor in my mind are the cultural and political shifts that have happened uh in the aftermath of 2020 and COVID that have changed the landscape and people's perspective on diet. And these [snorts] shifts are in some part a reaction to wokeness. And veganism is is associated with wokeness. And and so in order to be redpilled, you can't have anything to do with veganism. And the last thing any young man or male wants to be called is soy boy. This is like the favorite slur of the red pill. Um and so soy boy became like basically a slur word and attack. And being vegan became the opposite of masculinity. In order to be a man and be masculine, you had to be eating meat. And there was just no argument to that. And that be that has become like really uh an entrenched idea. It's not a new idea, but it has resurfaced with a great deal of strength. >> Yeah, that interests me though. The the idea that being called a soy boy would threaten your masculinity. >> How frail is your masculinity? >> I mean, that's pretty fragile, right? [laughter] >> That that that's a a construct of masculinity. Well, it's playing on this this idea that uh you know masculine like if you masculinity being associated with being the hunter and the provider who's going out into the wild and bringing back the animal and providing for your family, your tribe, your village. This is not how we're living in this day and age. And to the extent that the foods that we're eating are contributing to chronic lifestyle ailments, we're all best to revise our diets and think more consciously about the food choices that we're making and understand that uh you know many of these choices are contributing to the detriment of of the planet and the environment and and a degree of suffering. And we can make another choice. And just because we're eating a different food, it doesn't say anything about who we are as a man. Yeah. A man is a provider and a protector. And being a protector means that you speak up for the voiceless and the people that can't take care of themselves. This the the meat on the plate is not it's not the signal that it once was. As you just alluded to, you know, previously the meat meant hunting, which required some strength and physical fitness and brought security to the tribe. Today meat means shopping. So hunting, shopping, very different. So it's not the signal. I think that [sighs] young I think young men today are really struggling with like what is masculinity and why is it so hard hard for them to find a a partner to be a good prospect in the in the dating market. and they're looking at ways to enhance their kind of uh their dating uh uh success. >> Mhm. >> Their viability in the dating market, right? And looking back to the traditional ideals to do that, thinking that it's it's like um to to be the provider and the protector, it's things like eating more meat and eating less soy foods. Um, but to your point, I actually think things like physical fitness uh very are important for initial attraction. But in terms of long-term mating, when when we use the words like strength and and being a provider, a lot of it is actually to do with your emotional capacity. And so much of the conversation right now around how to become more masculine I believe is overindexing on these kind of external signals like eating more meat >> instead of being the signal >> to to be a provider and to create safety requires a lot of things we've been speaking about. Can you sit with your friend or your partner and listen to something that they've been through and not make it about you and and understand and show them that they that you understand so they feel seen and not be defensive or reactive. And so if I was speaking to a a 20-year-old dude right now who was like, "Hey, let's just simplify this cuz sometimes this language can seem a little intellectual. He was he just wanted to make himself a a a more viable prospect. Yes, go out and get fit, you know, focus on the physical your physical fitness, focus on having purpose and drive, but those things are almost commoditized. Like everyone's doing that. M >> the biggest leverage is the emotional capacity which is what really provides the safety for the partner [clears throat] is are you emotionally equipped to create that space where she feels heard and seen >> and you're not reactive and defensive. And so to kind of bring this back 360, I just think that that a lot of the the cultural conversation right now around what does it mean to be a man and and what can you do right now to be more masculine is uh slightly uh distorted. And sometimes those things that I I've just explained there can seem kind of soft and and feminine or emasculating in in and of themselves. But I don't think we have to look at them that way. I think I think sharpening your ability to listen and to receive feedback and not be defensive and not always want to be right. I actually see that as a skill that's very similar to going into the gym every day. >> It's also the white space like nobody's doing that. Like people are terrible listeners. People are self-obsessed and they are challenged to just be with somebody else and ask them what's going on with you and be totally present for that answer and not thinking about what they're going to say next. Uh, and if you can develop just a modicum of that capacity, it puts you in the top 0.01% of people. So that is a really smart way to think about it. it just doesn't light up the the the lizard brain in the same way that you know the kind of hardcore message that appeals to young men that you're seeing out there. So to drill it down to an example, you're you're a young male. You're somewhere in a set of circumstances where you look around, you don't see a lot of opportunity. You don't see a lot of potential mates. You're lacking self-esteem. You don't feel like your life has agency. You open up your phone and you start scrolling and you become very vulnerable to the kind of aggressive manosphere message that is telling you like you need to go throw around heavy weights. That's fine. You should do that, right? like go to the gym. Uh but you need to go out. No one's going to give it to you. You got to go out and you got [clears throat] to claim it for yourself and here's how you're going to do it and you're going to be aggressive and you're going to tell people the way that it is and don't let any of these women push you around. Like that is fundamentally a message that comes from a place of insecurity, you know, like and fear. Uh it's very effective at like selling courses or you know kind of uh entrenching you, you know, in deeper levels of the manosphere. And part and parcel of that whole messaging is like >> start eating steak, you know, like that just gets woven into that like this will make you feel more primal in your male essence. Uh but essentially what you're saying is true. Like if you actually want a partner, like >> learn [clears throat] how to listen. Learn how to be with somebody and be curious about them and stop obsessing about like how you're coming off and start thinking about like how how u that person can can feel seen and honored and you literally are then like in the top tier of >> of male candidates for >> and in that process [laughter] you're going to become >> and it doesn't matter what you're eating. you're going to become so what's on your plate is irrelevant. You will become comfortable in your own skin. So the insecurities that you're talking about. Uh you someone said to me this was a little while ago they said like um security feeling secure in yourself is is like the residue. It's it's it's what's left over. And so if I was again, if I was speaking to a young man right now that's like a little bit confused, the thinking outward to whether it's meat or the tribe you align yourself with or if the girls attracted to you or did you get that highpaying job that that's not going to bring the security that you're looking for. The security that you're looking for and having high selfworth is going in and saying, "Who do I want to be?" Okay, these are the things that that are important to me. I want to be trusted. I want to be loyal. I want to be dependable, accountable. You know, traits that we would say are strong masculine traits, human traits really. And then when the rubber meets the road and you get out in the world and you live, are the behaviors, the things you're doing consistent with those. And the bigger that gap, the less the less selfworth that we tend to have, >> the more insecurities we tend to have. But as you progress through life and you work at kind of set like minimizing the gap between who you think you are and who you actually are, then you're inevitably your masks are coming off. >> You're living in integrity. >> And when you're living in integrity, you know, you're you're showing up as as as someone to others. The way other people are experiencing you when you're in integrity is like this person's not wearing any masks. They're authentic. And that is attractive. >> Incredibly attractive. Much more attractive than whatever your flex is or the watch that's on your wrist or you know the job that you're talking about or the car that you're driving. All of those things are masks in and of themselves. And the attraction comes with removing the masks, not layering yourself with more of them. And it's hard because we I think particularly like men haven't had the the role models that make a lot of these things intuitive. So the skills that we we've been talking about being a better listener and not being defensive and not trying to be right all the time and just just listening to understand these haven't necessarily been modeled in households. So, we're going to fumble. It's not going to be perfect. And at least in my experience, it's having like a a degree of grace with that, but also not accepting the same patterns over and over and like standing strong and and being committed to to doing better. [clears throat] >> Mhm. >> And that's how over time you start shedding those those masks. And you know, I sit here as someone right now that has many masks to still shed >> and absolutely a huge work in progress, but I can just speak to that as someone that's that's that's in it. And I think I kind of wish my 20-year-old self heard that. And so I would would have invested more time earlier in my 20s into some of these things. to bring it back around like what you're eating is not contributing or antagonizing uh your identity as a male. You know what I mean? Like that is a red herring and irrelevant. It's no more relevant than the kind of car you're driving or the watch that's on your wrist. But it's incredibly powerful. We just saw this whole uh narrative around James Tarico's girlfriend who apparently is vegan and now he's being pillaried as you know weak. Uh I think Trump called him vegan and this is like a this is a slur word. This is like a you know this can like bury your political career just being called this word because if you want to be a leader you got to be eating meat preferably steak. And this conflation of ideas, this conflation of masculinity with eating meat, it's deeply uh embedded in our culture and very resistant to logically being deconstructed. Like there's something deep within our ourselves that um holds on to that as true even though if we look at it even on a surface level, we realize it's kind of nonsense. I think most of us are moving at such a pace that we're not stopping to to kind of deeply examine that and it is so deeply rooted in culture and society and and and marketing and now politicians and um so it's it's accepted at face value. >> Yeah. But the interesting thing is the fundamental philosophy of the red pill is that the institutions are broken and they're lying to you. But this idea that uh meat is equated with masculinity is is basically uh a talking point of the meat and dairy industry who want you to believe that like they're very heavily incentivized in that idea remaining exactly where it is. And so it's kind of the opposite of being redpilled to like buy into that notion. I mean that's interesting in and of itself because I feel [gasps] through through co I feel like there there uh was and and I think rightly so in part a push back against control and and regulation. And I I think the meat industry did a good job of kind of positioning this message of eat more plants as control or overreach from companies and organizations. You you'd hear people saying, you know, Bill Gates is is investing deeply into plant-based meat. >> Yeah. He wants you to be eating all these >> and the food sovereignty message was attached to meat, not to eating more plants. Um, and so that was that's another I guess piece of this kind of change in in culture that has has led to that that vibe shift where we started this conversation where where certain people have um felt that the the plant-based community or plant-based message is a very far-left message >> and is associated with control as opposed to freedom. But from the perspective of control, who benefits or profits from this idea that um meat is is equated with masculinity? Well, the bit the meat industry, right? >> And it's the big meat companies, not the local farmers. And so part of that story, I think people are led to believe that food sovereignty message, eating more meat, is is supporting local ranchers. But when you dig into it, it's really the the big meat >> companies that benefit. The other thing that I I might circle back on here is you mentioned that part of of masculinity is protecting the vulnerable and protecting the the voiceless. And I would say I personally I identify with the the pursuit of living in a way that is as beneficial for the environment and other animals and other humans as possible. And I find that to be not a a weakness or a soft trait, but a a a strength. And I think it takes temperance and it takes some uh courage to step aside from what most of society is doing. And and I'm not saying again, I don't think people need to do this perfectly and there's not one way of doing it. But I think questioning that and saying I'm going to have some some discipline and strength to make some choices here that that I think are not just better for myself, but better for the the world around me. You were talking earlier about adhering to your values, like aligning your actions with your values to live a life in integrity. And so when I think about masculinity and manhood, rather than looking at meat as a proxy for those things on a surface level, instead looking at yourself and going beneath the layers to try to identify what your ethics are, what do you stand for? what's important to you, what are you willing to take a stand for? And then making the hard decisions around your actions to make sure that you're living up to that ethical standard, whatever it is. And this is very much in alignment with the stoic notion of life, which is essentially that life is difficult and there are going to be obstacles. And being a man means you accept all of these things. You make the difficult choices and you make the hard choice when it's not convenient. So instead of caving to your cravings or being manipulated by a marketing message that wants you to believe in order to be a man you need to buy this thing or do that other thing, checking in with yourself and getting very clear like this is right and this is wrong. At least to me, these are my rules. And life is going to throw challenges at me where what I want to do and what is consistent with that ethic are going to come into conflict. And the man is the person who does the hard thing and makes the choice they don't want to that isn't convenient and doesn't feel good, but is consistent with that ethical perspective because that is what living a life in integrity is. And if you want to be more self-actualized, more integrous, where your actions are in alignment with your ethics and your values and you know what those values are and you stand up for them, that is the ultimate flex of strength and that's a very attractive thing. somebody who stands up for what they believe in even when it's not convenient, even when it might irritate other people or even when it compromises like the thing you really want to do, the comfortable thing, the thing that's going to make you feel good. That is what being a man is. That's what being a self-actualized human is. It's making the hard choice when it's not convenient. And back to what we were saying earlier about the judging that comes in the in the vegan community. This is where I think the absolute message of someone must be vegan in order for it to be successful tick. I think what you're talking about there, someone's values, someone values animal welfare, they value the environment, they also value their health. And so I think the aspiration to eat as plant exclusive as possible based on looking at those three different things myself. That's that's where I've landed. And so it's difficult from the outside to judge someone based on the way they're eating because only they can do that reconciliation. Only they when their head hits the pillow at night. Are they are they eating as as kind of plant-based as possible in a way that leaves them feeling healthy, leaves them feeling nourished, leaves them feeling good in their body, and is also great for the environment? And and so to me, that seems like that is the strongest message to communicate outwards and then let every individual assess what what feels right for them and where they land. >> All right. So to bring this to a conclusion, hopefully we've um rearranged some thinking uh around like how to approach this lifestyle or how to conceptualize it. But let's leave people with some practical ways to get started. Uh so if you're encouraged by what you've heard and you're curious about how you might begin the process of eating a more plant predominant diet, what is the best way to do that? Simon, >> and I'll highlight I I want people to know you can have the physical fitness and the body that you want and eat in a way that's good for your health, good for the environment, animal welfare. So, you can have it all and and have your values aligned. And it doesn't have to be complicated. I think sometimes we run the risk of over complicating this. It's it's not eating as much red meat and and white meat and processed meat to start with and instead starting to eat more legumes. What do I mean by legumes? Tofu, tempeh, lentils, beans, chickpeas, and yes, those foods by themselves, like most animal proteins, pretty bland. So, season them, use the flavors that you currently like in your cooking, and you can make them taste really good. They're really just a flavor vehicle. you you do need to pay attention to protein. So, don't just take the animal proteins out and not consider what you're replacing them with. Get 1.2 g per kilogram at least. If you're really physically active, get 1.6 six gram of protein per kilogram and throw in a a protein shake in the morning or afternoon after you train and put peanut butter and whatever milk you're using and berries and dark leafy greens in there and then all of a sudden that contains another 40 g of protein and a lot of nutrients above that I think at a high level for someone that's dipping their toes into this take a multivitamin as an insurance policy you could refine that later and go more strategic on individual supplements, but start with the multivitamin and a DHA, EPA, omega-3 supplement, which is fish oil or algae oil. That's really as complex as it needs to be as a starting point. And across the week, trying to eat lots of fruits and vegetables and and whole grains and nuts and seeds. >> That's a good way to start. If you want to get deeper into the weeds, you can pick up Simon's book, The Proof is in the Plants, and tune in to Simon's podcast, The Proof, where he sits down with all of these nutrition scientists and they go deep into the weeds on the research and what we know, what we still are trying to find out. Um, [snorts] also, uh, you can pick up Finding Ultra, my memoir. In the appendices in the back of that, I have like 50 pages of like how I do it and how I've made it work as an ultra endurance athlete doing double iron mans and all kinds of crazy challenges. Um, we also have two cookbooks, the Plant Power Way and the Plant Power Way Italia. And I too have hosted many uh research scientists on my podcast over the years. Uh, but you can go back and just search Rich Roll Simon Hill and you'll find the many episodes that we've done. We must have done like a dozen at this point or something like that. So, there's plenty there for you for those who are eager to learn. And the water's warm over here. I would say that Simon has done an admirable job of modeling an aspirational lifestyle. You're very fit and successful and have a beautiful partner. you're in a loving relationship. I've been married for a long time and you know I'm a parent with children and running a business while also uh acquitting myself as an athlete in my later decades. And so this is not only possible I actually find it to be an aspirational way to live and if it wasn't I wouldn't still be living it. >> Thank you very much [music] Rich for having me again. >> Yeah thanks for thanks for sharing. appreciate you and always appreciate coming on and I love the feedback I get from your community. So, it's a pleasure. >> Cool. [music] And to be continued. All right. Peace. [snorts] More plants.