THE BOX Jean-Marc Pisapia Interview- Bands History, L'Affaire Dumoutier, Sass Jordan, Prog & Metal

Feel the power, feel the feeling on the metal voice. The metal voice. First time on the metal voice. Jean Jean Mark Pispia if I pronounce your last name correct >> Pisipia um on the metal voice and our conversation right before this was well the box isn't really that metal probably furthest from metal but rock a bit proggy right and you know what fellow Montrealers or in the Quebec area at least and we love to promote you know the the bands that sort of had a lot of prominence in Canada. So, and and in the rest of the world, too. So, welcome to the show. >> Messi, thanks for having me. >> Was your father Italian, born in Italy? >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Moved here when he was 24, 50 bucks in his pocket, married a French Canadian girl, and we never spoke Italian or English at home. >> Wow. How did you pick up how'd you pick up English uh over the years? >> Um he had to do a little bit of stuff in the US. So we spent quite a bit of time there when I was younger and same thing with Italy. So I learned the three languages separately uh but before the age of I'd say 10 uh all at the same time. So you can clearly see that I have a very present French accent when I speak um English. But yeah, it's been part of my life almost all the time. >> Yeah. So good. You learn how to speak Italian. That's amazing. >> Yeah. Stroke of luck. >> My wife's the >> very very easy language to learn when you're French. >> Yes, it is. Yes. There's a lot of commonalities there. Um, so for those of you who don't know the box, they were they were they're very prominent on the radio in the videos in the I would say early to late 80s, right? Still around today touring, performing. And just quickly tell me if there's an upcoming show. I think there is. Maybe want to promote that right off the bat. >> Uh, well, we're doing two things. Kingston, actually, uh, Deseronto to be precise on the 28th of August. And then we go to Oakville past Toronto to do the Kurf Fest in uh uh September. And then we have a couple of other things, but it's not clear. I don't remember exactly why. So uh just keep an eye on the website www.thebox band. Very important to put the band there because you're going to see a lot of boxes, cardboard and every style, but not us. The boxband.com dates, everything's there. Okay, cool. So, again, we're going into sort of maybe there's people who already know you and people who want to discover the box. The style sort of burges on new wave rock and even touches on Prague. >> Yeah. >> If you think that's a correct assessment of of the the music of the box, >> I do. I know I've spoken to Ivan and Meno Without Hats and he he said that at the beginning at the very beginning of the box you guys were together. I don't I'm not sure about the whole story but maybe you want to just say how the box got together at the beginning. >> Well to begin with Ivan and I used to go to the same school >> and it was a French lease in Montreal. A lease is a French school from France using the system from France not the system from Quebec. So, it's a completely private thing and the quality of the uh um teachings there was enormously higher than anything you could find here in Quebec in the in the public sector anyway. And and Ivan was there and we met there when we were kids. Uh the thing that maybe not everybody knows is that uh actually we started making music together and eventually he hired me to be a keyboard player with Men Without Hats in 1980. >> Okay. >> And we did a US uh eastern seabboard tour in 1980. Uh and then I decided to do my own thing because I had a feeling like two lead singers wasn't going to work with Ivan in the same band. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and uh and I decided to go on my own and do the box, which was fine. And um and that's so that's how we know each other. We've we've known each other for a long time. And and it's just too bad because last Canada Day we were supposed to play Ottawa together and everything got cancelled because of the storms. >> Gods of Thunder. I was there and the rain was coming down so hard and the streets. That's kind of where I thought of, you know what, since I couldn't see the box, I might as well talk to Jean Mark about the box. So, I figured, hey, you know, things work out that way. So, >> there you go. >> You start off with Men That Hats, you go on sort of by yourself. You form a new band called The Box, right? And what was the first demos or what were you doing there? As you mentioned earlier, the point in common that men without hats in the box have is that Quebec being French speaking uh was heavily influenced by things that came from Europe, contrary to the states which were more like self-sufficient, let's say. >> Mhm. >> And so progressive rock was a very was very happening here. I mean my musical diet from the 70s and Ivan's musical diet from the 70s was mainly music um progressive rock. We mentioned Jeet Jethro. Yes. Of course, Pink Floyd and Genesis and all that. And um and then in 1980 when it was time for us to hit the scene, it was completely unthinkable that we would come out there with something progressive. Although Merillion apparently pulled that off. It's a mystery to me. Uh, however, all of these influences from our progressive diet from the 70s showed in our early music. Yes, Men with Hot Hats was very much a I'd say almost cold wave band in the early 80s, but just after the first album was released and Safety Dance came out, just after that, you could see all of that background surface. I mean on Tuesday on their second album Jethro >> and their second album generally speaking is very much influenced by the uh by the Prague era and it shows I mean Ian Anderson himself from Jethro Tall plays the flute. >> Yeah. >> On on Tuesday. >> Yeah. >> The flute part you hear there. >> That's the lead singer from Jethro Tall right there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh so to answer your question, how did it go? Well, the only thing was to um uh write music, be on the market, play the clubs, and eventually someone would show up and say, "I think you can do something." And you know, and that's exactly what happened. Men Without Hats had a manager called Mark Durant, which was uh everything you want from a young manager of that of that type at that time in that specific area of your career. And so when I left Men Without Hats, Mark said to me, "You're going to make songs and you're going to need the manager and I'm going to need more artists. So we should get together once you're ready." And that's exactly what I did. I wrote my songs with two other members uh that had nothing to do with Men Without Hats and then presented that to Mark. And by the time we were ready to hit the stores and everything, the safety dance was a huge hit all over the world. And that Gre gave an extraordinary credibility to Mark Dra which in turn opened a lot of doors for us and made things a lot easier. Thank you M and thank you Ivan for that. >> So what was the decision? So we were talking about you learning English and Italian but your your your mother tongue was French even though your father was Italian, right? So there is decision decision that a lot of Quebec artists say, "Okay, am I going French or am I going English?" And that's a tough decision because you're the majority of Quebec if people don't know is French-speaking and you're kind of maybe you might alienate them but at the same time you go the global world is English right so what was that decision you made let's go with the easiest answer to begin with the French market in the world is maybe 200 300 million people >> the English market is everybody else whether you're Dutch Indian Portuguese whatever you listen to English music. So that was the thing. Secondly, coming out of Men Without Hats and you know seeing Men Without Hats doing what they were doing with the safety dance, >> it was pretty obvious that Mark Don and Tom Barry who had just formed Alert Records. Tom Barry was a former he was part of the management team for Rush >> and um he teamed up with Mark Durand and they formed a label called Alert on which Kim Mitchell and the box were the two first artists. Uh for them it was out of the question that we would alienate ourselves from the biggest part of the market uh worldwide for political or uh other reasons. But there is more to that. There's two ways to make art in general, whether it's writing novels, painting, making music, doing cinema, whatever. One is to remind people of who they are, what their daily life is, what their society is like, and what their political choices should be. And the other one is exactly the opposite. It's to make people forget about their daily lives, forget about politics, and just move into an imaginary world that has nothing to do with reality. My musical diet from the 70s was exactly that. And so there was no political option. In my case, when I decided to start making music, I wanted to um um f fulfill that role with my audience to make them forget about their everyday life and move into a place where everything's different. Did we write a little bit about everyday life? Yes. Our first single was a track called Walk Away, which talks about 9 to5. >> But I'm going to pause you right there. Just so you know, the first time I heard that song and I think and for those of you who don't know the song, they should put it on, listen to it. We were actually going to work. I was probably on a bus or I don't know what it was, but it connected with everybody because everybody was going to work, right? We're all off to work every day. And go ahead. Sorry. Unpause. There you go. You're absolutely right. And indeed, the radio stations embarked the song big time everywhere because it was the perfect drive-in song in the morning. But it didn't talk about anything specific as far as your politics or whatever. It just said, "Ah, you know, coffee again. Whoops. In your papers." It was just a an outlook, a general outlook on everyday life for people who do that sort of living and which I have tremendous respect for. I mean, doing 9 to5, are you kidding me? I couldn't do that, but a lot of people can and do, and that helps run the world, and my hats off to you. But for the rest, it was completely, you know, anything. It was anything and everything. >> Exactly. There you go. >> The first album right there, the box. >> First album. Yeah. And just look at that picture. I mean, it tells everything. >> That's a Renaissance sort of artwork right there. Right. >> Exactly. >> Whose idea was that? >> Pardon me. Whose idea was it to sort of go renaissance on it? >> It was Mark Dra. >> Oh, yeah. >> It was the manager. Yeah. Because the painter there is a guy called Risha. He's a guy from Montreal. And Mark had bought that painting from him because he just loved it. Yeah. >> And then when he when Mark listened to our first demo, especially with songs like The Great Summer Fair and War Going On and all that, he thought that the vibe there uh is somewhat um reminiscent of the image you see there. >> And so to him, it was no question. And uh quite honestly, we agreed uh without much fuss. >> It stuck out too, right? Because when you think of the 80s, right, there's no red and yellow and purple and bubblegum sort of 80s sort of styles. It's like, wait a second. This gives it more of a Praggy sort of, even though it's New Wave, it gave it more of a Prague tone, right? >> Yeah. >> This is kind of serious. It looks serious. >> Uh, and by the way, just off what you just said there, it's New Wave. >> Yeah, >> I disagree. >> Okay. >> I don't even think it's New Wave. I mean, when you listen to the record, it may sound a little bit new wavy because of the instruments that we used at the time. For example, that album has a drum machine. It doesn't have a real drummer. That might make it sound new wavy, >> but for the rest, I mean, all the songs, they're a lot more progressive than New Wave. I think I >> I agree with you, but there is an overall if if you were just to blindly ask somebody, "What does this sound like?" They'll say the first response will be New Wave. But when you really dig deep into it, >> you'll go, "Wait a second. There's more to it than that." Right. >> True. Yes. >> You know, um, and you guys, was it on this tour that you opened up for Merillion? >> Yes. >> Which brings it again to a Praggy sort of, uh, you know, look, right? >> Absolutely. And, um, not only them, but the pretenders too in Toronto and, uh, others. I mean, I can't list them all, but yeah, we opened for a lot of people. We played super large venues like the Montreal Forum, uh, the Maple Leaf Garden in Toronto and so on. And that gave us tremendous exposure. It was, uh, it's all good. All good. >> How, how hard was it to get Walk Away on the radio? >> Super easy. >> Crazy. >> Yeah. They just walked in there. Uh, the record company, it was Polygram at the time that took care of the um um marketing. And we had one of the guys there. All he had to do that guy, Bill St. George is his name. Do you know him? >> No. No. No. No. >> That guy would just walk into a radio station. Okay. And his credibility was such that everybody did exactly what he said. Period. >> Okay. He's the one who went to the airport to fetch culture club when they played Montreal. And he rented a bunch of limousines, went to the airport, got them there, and then had them do a a quick uh whatever tour of promotion in Montreal. was known for being such a an efficient guy at his job and I remember very well because I was with him. He walks into a radio station in Quebec City for example. He just plays the song and said this like agree and the woman there said no problem you know >> and it connected right it connected with every single person going into the office and the radio station I don't know if how far it reached the first single did it reach all of Canada I don't know I know that definitely Quebec >> it didn't go as far as it could because it didn't have a video >> oh that's true that's true >> it didn't have a video and I don't understand why we didn't do a video for it. Maybe the record company just lacked money. Uh although at that time the the video companies like Much Music would give you money to make a video so that they had things to play. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh so our first video came with the second single which was Must I Always Remember. >> Yeah. >> Uh and I could see the difference clearly with the video and without. I mean to me it was from one day to the next you could see the difference. I would step onto the bus and go from point A to point B and young people would look at me like that. I know that face. >> I know that face. >> I've seen that face. Oh, yeah. I noticed it. I noticed >> audio. When you have just audio, that's one thing because they don't know who the person is, right? You attach a video to it, suddenly >> visuals. >> Visuals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Visuals are everything. >> So that there was success. I remember when this album came out, a lot of success. It was in the radio record stores. I don't know how far it reached, you know, even with the second single, but you guys were definitely on your way up, right? >> Yep. It didn't reach very far. I think it sold 50,000 copies, no more. Uh, but at least it told a message. It told the industry, "This is what this band is about, and there's more coming." >> Yeah. Yeah. Then the second album came out and a song a particular song that changed everything was la. >> Yeah. Yeah. And for people who don't know that this is a um maybe you want to describe the the scene of it's a fictitious story right based on reality or based on another story but you you've changed the people's names and the characters. This is at a time and people have to remember this uh lautier say to me was a time in the court cases in the 80s where you couldn't really plead insanity. It was it was something new, right? It was definitely something new. And today it's another story. There's a lot of precedents for that. But maybe you want to explain what the song meant. And it's a quirky song. It's not like your verse chorus verse chorus song. It's it's it's not a typical song. And that's what makes it so great. But go ahead. >> You're taking the words right out of my mouth. >> I'm setting you up. I'm setting you up. >> You're absolutely right. It was a song like no other. Period. First of all, it's a murder story. Who writes a murder story to get a single to play on the radio and people to dance in clubs? >> Secondly, it was based on a true story. But the thing that interested me was not the murder itself. It was a little boy that had been murdered in Belgium. I believe I made it a little girl because I didn't want people, you know, around the world to start saying, "Oh, you misled whatever." I just changed the story. But you're right. It's it's based on a truth thing. And again, you're right by saying that the uh the murderer Exactly. the murderer was found same patron by the way. Same painter as the first album. >> Renaissance. Yeah. style >> true also. And the the murderer was found not guilty on the basis of insanity. And that was the thing that prompted me to do a song about it because I thought it was extraordinary that a society could get to the point where it would find someone not guilty advanced to the point where it would do that. And uh and so I decided to do the uh the song based on that. And then, you know, when we're talking about the the the the progressive influence, there you go. I mean, I'm telling a story. I couldn't be telling a story more precisely than that. On the 14th of October, very early in the morning, the results of a crime were found in the stables of the Peru. It's it's a storytelling thing straight right out of the uh progressive era. And you're also right, it was too long. It was five minutes something. Couldn't play on the radio because of that. We had to edit it. But the video >> the video did everything for that song because it was like no other video you had ever seen before. You don't see a single musician playing a single note of any instrument. You don't see me singing a single word. I play the role of the police officer. The bass player plays the murderer. Uh my brother Ge who was doing keyboards at the time plays the lawyer, etc., etc. And so we all played our roles in there and people thought, my god, what is this band exactly? What's this video? What are these guys actors or musicians? You know, and the video was so extraordinary in that there were no other videos like that at the time. There weren't there weren't much videos to begin with, but like that one in particular? No. So it played like hell on much music on music uh music bliss and so on. And that's what made the song the big hit that it became. It's because of the video according to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it was to me I people who don't know the box and people who do know the box know this song. It could come on the radio and they go, I don't even know who this band is, but they know that song. How far reaching did that song go? I know it went across Canada. Did it start going into the US and other parts of the world? >> No, it didn't. and I wanted it to go into France and somehow it didn't either. And I have no explanation for it. I just don't know. Uh I know that uh Polygram who uh took care of our distribution which is a German label >> had trouble trying to put us out there in the world. And that forced me to tell the uh the record company uh i.e. uh Mike Duran, Tom Barry alert records. Let's switch. Let's go to Capital EMI because if Polygram can't do it, you know, we got we have to do something about it. So, starting on the second record with which was very successful by all standards, but in Canada only, I started pressuring people around to make sure that we could get outside of the country. >> Did you think it was more of a distribution or maybe Americans couldn't connect to this? A little bit of both. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Americans could u easily be troubled by that. Although um Walk away the single was brought to an American radio station and the uh program director, a black female was filmed giving a reaction to the song and she said, "Wow, let's play this. I mean, it's a nineto-five song. It's perfect for the drive-in and blah blah blah. And there she goes talking about how this song would be perfect for the New York market. It was in New York City. >> Yeah. >> And yet it didn't happen for some reason. >> It's strange. It kind of reminds me of Walk Away. Reminds me of The Working Man by Rush. That was their song, right? That that song will broke them in the US before they broke in Canada. Well, they were touring Canada, but they broke in the US because of it because it was a working class, right, in that part in in sort of the the the the middle of the US or northern. Strange timing is everything sometimes, right? Timing is just everything. >> Absolutely. >> So then of course you have my dreams of you. The the album was a success. I know in Canada was a success. I know the videos were always playing. >> A lot of you know you guys were probably doing well touring right at the time. >> Very well. We were playing all the time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, you go to your third album >> Closer Together. There it is. And as you switch your labels, right, to Capital? >> No, not yet. >> No, it wasn't on Closer Together. >> Still alert. >> We stayed with Polygram up until that one. And then we switched for the fourth record. So, here's a story about this record to make it uh uh it's basically the same as the two previous records. >> Hold on a second. What happened to the album cover guy? >> That's right. the monster. Well, we wanted to get step away a little bit from the uh uh artsy uh you know, progressive blah blah blah type of thing. And I asked someone to do the cover that cover for us, giving him some indications. And that's what he came up with. And >> look, I'm going to just say it. It's the ugliest thing I've ever seen in my entire life. But it's a great record. It is a great record. >> One day in 1986, I get a phone call from Luan. Leukemia Canada. >> Yes. >> Out of the blue. By the way, 1986, the Montreal Canadians just won the Stanley Cup. So, I get this phone call and I've got this woman on the line and she says, "My name is blah blah blah. I work with Lucan and we're going to do a huge fundraiser and uh we're going to do it through the the the means of a video >> uh in which we will promote the idea of team spirit. If we get closer together, we can beat this thing leukemia. And we have the Montreal Canadians participating. We've got Martin Sinclair who said she wanted to be in it. And we need at least two songs, one in English, one in French, theme songs on the theme of Team Spirit. And and the lady said, "Would you like to write the two theme songs?" You >> Yeah. >> And I said, "Yes, of course." And so 24 hours later, she had closer together. >> Wow. 24 hours later. >> That's pretty amazing. >> And I put my mind into the let's make a hit song mode. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's it. The team spirit thing. We're going to call it closer together. We're going to talk about the kids, but we're not going to make a case of them being sick. And it's going to be an upbeat song. And it's going to be like if we get together, we're going to beat that thing. >> Anthemic. >> Exactly. And then we got to shoot the video at the Montreal Forum at the time, not the Bell Center. The forum was still the thing. >> And the Montreal Canadians were there. That's what that was in the Patrick days with Kbono being the captain and so on. >> And we got some of the players, not all of them, but some of the players on the ice with the kids from St. Just hospital ourselves and Martin Sinclair. Let's make a a thing clear here. The woman singing concert together is Martin Sinclair. It's not SAS Jordan. >> It's the biggest misconception. Yes. >> At that time, SAS Jordan was our backup singer. She had been our back backup singer for five years. Uh she was about to leave the band to do her own career, but it wasn't done yet. She sang on every other song on that on that record, but not closer together. It's Max Sinclair. I know it confuses everybody because the video that we shot because Okay. >> Was she on this album? >> Yeah. >> S Jordan, >> was she? I think so. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Was she on uh Do you remember which songs? >> Uh no. >> Okay. >> I know she wasn't. No, I don't. I know she wasn't on Laafier. It was a friend of mine. Vietnamese. a waitress in a Vietnamese restaurant that sang the walk in >> walk in those parts. >> Yeah. >> Wasn't sus either, but I don't remember. It's uh >> Okay. It's okay. >> Long time ago. Long time ago. >> Uh so the thing is when the record company, Alert Records, when they heard the song Closer Together, they said, "Okay, Liuan can do whatever the hell they want with it. No problem. But that song's going to be a single on the first on the on the third record big time. >> Yeah. >> And then I wrote and then we shot the video during the winter and it was out of the question for me that we shot that video in the snowbanks or inside. It was going to be outside in fair weather. So we flew to the uh Dominican Republic to shoot the video and Min couldn't make it. And she said to me quite uh point blankly, she said, "I'm not going to the south on a beach with 18 horny guys." Okay. So, you can bring SAS Jordan if you want, but I'm staying home. And I said, "Fine." And SAS came and she's the one in the video with CVW. So, that's where the confusion comes from is that everybody sees singing in that song, but it wasn't supposed to be a song for the box. It was supposed to be a fundraiser song, a theme song for Lucan. That's it. But then the company, the record company decided to put it on the record. And then we wrote Ordinary People and Crying Out Loud for Life. And these three songs took the band from where it was, wherever that is, and then it made it out of control in Canada, but again, only in Canada. >> Let me let me ask you about your relationship with SAS Jordan over the years. I I'm She had her solo career later on, right? But you kind of gave her that in that that start, I would assume, right? >> Not really. She gave it herself. First of all, before being with the box, she was with a band called the Pinups. >> Mhm. >> And uh they were being pretty, you know, busy and successful. And I'm I'm not even sure I understand why she decided to leave the pin-ups and come do backup singing for us in the first place. But yeah, she stayed for five years. I drove in the car with her all the time. Okay. She was my like sitting right there all the time. And we had endless discussions about everything. Discussions. I mean conversations. >> Sure. Sure. and she was uh an extraordinarily um uh agreeable person to be with all the time. The princess absolutely not. Uh trooper 100%. Uh she would never complain about anything and life on the road can be something especially if you're a uh a medium-sized celebrity band and you do a lot of concerts in uh s so conditions. And then when she left to do her own thing, she moved to California and uh and things happened for there for her there. And then even more than that when she was hired to do a Canadian Idol. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I remember. >> And then she became a superstar. Uh, in fact, we had a gig to do together about five or six years ago, uh, where she played, um, she came and sing to sing closer together with me, and we had a a cigarette on the sidewalk downtown Montreal. Everybody would stop for her. Nobody >> me. >> Nobody. No. Everybody would say, "Oh, that's Jordan right there. Let's go and shake hands." Leave completely ignored. Oh yeah, she was and then we met again by chance um two years ago at the festival de Quebec. Uh she was playing the next day, but she made sure she showed up one day early to see us >> and we spent three hours in the parking lot listening to uh Kansas from one ear and talking about everything else from the other. It was Yeah, S. Jordan is an extraordinary person and um that's about all I have to say about her. >> That's great. It's great. You guys had a great relationship. So, Closer Together brings the band even higher up. Did you start venturing off into the US like the New York, the closer border towns to see what the mood was like there and >> test the waters? >> Okay. So, remember when I said that I was putting pressure on the company to switch from Polygram to Capital EMI? That's when it happened when I saw okay that the record company somehow somehow couldn't do anything with songs like Ordinary People and Closer Together. Give me a break. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, we were ready to do the fourth album and uh um I said from the outset, we have to change. We have to go somewhere else. And a deal was struck with Capital EMI in Toronto >> that if they took the the the entire roster the entire roster from Alert Records, i.e. >> Kim Mitchell, us and everybody else, then we would get a deal with Capital EMI in Los Angeles. >> Okay, >> perfect, isn't it? >> Yeah, sounds good. >> And then Yeah, sounds good. That's where it ends. Uh then we moved to England to record the fourth album with Martin Russant. Another super winning formula. Martin Rushant. Exactly. Martin Russian. To those who don't know, he's deceased now unfortunately, but he was the producer for a bunch of people, >> including the Human League, >> uh with whom he co-wrote, uh Don't You Want Me, Baby? >> Yeah. Yeah. and he got himself to be uh and he got himself a Grammy in I don't remember what year 199 83 I think it was whatever and so he accepted he was willing not only willing but he was enthusiast about doing based on a demo about doing the production on our fourth record uh especially based on the fact that it was going to be released by Capital EMI in Los Angeles and and everything. >> Yeah. So, we record the album. It sounds absolutely amazing. We get back to Canada. Uh, and then the album is released and u I don't know how to explain this, but you know when bad luck really sticks to you. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's what happened to us. And then the band got so exhausted uh of being at work all the time and seeing record company after you know blunder after blunder and capital EMI in Los Angeles specialized in that sort of thing it seems. I lost three members. >> They decided to call it quits. >> Yeah. And then the unbelievable thing happened, which is that one of our songs called Temptation, which we had just shot a video for in Louisiana in uh New Orleans, does a natural mega hit in Europe. >> Crazy. It starts with Italy where it stays it stays for 13 weeks number one of the national charts and then it spreads to Germany, Switzerland, Austria, English um Germanspeaking countries for some reason and Turkey. >> Wow. >> Turkey the reason is that the diaspora of Turkey and Germany is so huge. So whatever Germany does in terms of marketing it translates to Turkey. >> Okay. Uh but the band is dying. I lost half of my people and uh and we know about this success in Europe by my family in Italy. >> Wow. >> A cousin calls uh my sister because they're close together. And the guy says, "Uh Jean plays in in Italy all the time from Sicily to uh to the the the the Alps all the time. when are they coming to play? And she calls me and she says that and I said I didn't know. So I call Mark Duran and Mark Duran calls the company and they didn't know. And then Los Angeles calls London because the international of capital EMI is British company. Capital EMI is British. They had no idea. And there was this big song working like hell over there and we didn't know. And so then the band died with this happening. it. So, so I I'm assuming in Europe, so people have to keep in mind there's no internet here. We're these are phone calls. These are real phone calls. >> There are letters that take like four weeks to get money. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, mama Maya, he's he's doing so good here in Italy. Where is he? Um, were they buying imports because I there was tape trading, but to a certain degree, right? I mean, were you selling albums there or >> That's what I hear. That's what I heard that happened. And then there was the bootlegging thing, uh, which was, uh, very big at that time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And other than that, I can't say because I don't know. >> Wow. >> And the other thing is, uh, that I found myself with two young children. >> Yeah. >> Because I had my two daughters in 1989 and 1990. Yeah. I wanted them to be close close together. No pun intended. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And uh and so I needed to get uh things together really quickly and I started another company uh to do corporate music on the side and that took off really big time. >> Yeah. >> And so I kind of forgot about the band. I have to admit I I didn't have the band anymore. We wrote the fifth album which never came out. It came out only 20 years later. And then I said, "All right, let's forget about it." I mean, no, it's not true. I did do uh uh one last thing. Uh the former president, retired president of C of CBS Records in New York wrote me a letter saying that he had heard the fifth album and that he wanted to be our manager. >> Okay. >> And he said, "I never thought I would do that in my entire career to be a manager, but now I'm doing it." Gordon Anderson. Look him up. >> Okay. All right. >> And uh and I go, "Okay." And then he went all over the states to try and sell the fifth record and he couldn't do anything with it because of the failure of the fourth. Ever think of saying, "You know what? I'm going to write a metal album. I'm going to write a hard rock album." Did you ever go to, you know what, since this is a metal voice, did you ever think of, you know what, times are changing, maybe I should change genres. It's funny you say that because you you're making me think and realize that yes, I did. When we did the demos of the fifth record, uh, I decided we would go all out. Could you label it as hard rock? Could you label it as metal? No. But was the attitude, you know, the what I was talking about earlier, was the attitude there to really just go for it? Yeah, absolutely. On the fifth record and there are songs in there which I think are absolutely incredible which nobody knows about. Nobody >> and will never know about. Um, but I'm very proud of. And yes, that was a little bit of a it you can still get that album through our website. It's called John of Mark. >> Okay. >> By the way, my name is Jean Mark. John of Mark was that manager from the that that president of CBS. Oh, he he came up with this idea. Call yourself John of Mark. Joan of Arc. You know, you look medieval to me. And so I said, all right, fine. Whatever. And we called the album John of Mark. and it's uh available on our website and if you're into music get it and because it's really really good. Let's go into this metal world. I mean what kind of hard rock bands did you appreciate over the years? >> Uh where does Led Zeppelin fit? >> Hard rock probably. I I would think. Yeah. Uh, I would go with them to begin with because I really think that some of their early stuff, >> yeah, >> was completely extraordinary. And I'm leaving out the part where apparently they copied everybody from the black scene of the 1930s. Uh, but no, their sound was absolutely unbelievable. In fact, I remember having heard I think it was Whole Lot of Love when I was something like 10 years old and the song scared me. It scared me because I thought, "Oh, this is what drug music sounds like." I thought, "Oh my god, these guys are on drugs. That's why they do music like that." And it scared me. So it must have been efficient at least for that >> Black Sabbath. >> Nope. >> Never got into Black Sabbath. >> No. Uh >> paranoid. No. >> No. I think I thought I'm going to insult you big time here. >> Okay. >> Kiss was very funny. >> I'm sorry. >> I thought Kiss was very funny. >> What do you mean by very funny? Like it can mean a lot of things. >> Uh the marketing. I got to know Jean Simmons after, okay, not personally, but through, you know, whatever. >> The marketing is so freaking obvious in that band and everything that goes with it, including the music and the lyrics and all that that I think it's just a perfect genius marketing exercise. >> Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's like Star Wars. It's a music. It's like Star Wars, right? The merchandise, how they in 76, no other film had that much merchandise. and Kiss sort of repeated that but from a musical sort of thing, right? >> Yeah. But it's it's it's incredible. >> It's incredible to see how absolutely deliberate the marketing exercises. It's written all over it. Marketing. >> I You're not insulting me. You're not insulting me at all. I mean, uh >> but I thought I mean to me that was that was something you I mean to behold. It was something to behold and to respect. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's bands like Iron Maiden. Maybe it's a little more heavier than you would like. I don't know. Um, >> Iron Maiden. Yes, I'd say. Yeah. Uh, what's his name? Alice Cooper. >> Yeah. >> Where does he fit in? >> That's a very interesting. He could be between Prague, hard rock, and shock rock. He was like the first to sort of before Kiss, right? He's, you know, cutting his head off. He's snakes and was shock rock maybe we'll call him. >> Yeah. Uh that guy made an impression in me when I was 13 14. Absolutely. >> Did he scare you? >> Uh funny enough, no. Because the same thing happened to me when I saw him than when I saw Kiss. I saw the marketing behind it. >> Wow. Yeah. >> You know, I didn't see a guy who truly loves to eat bats, you know. I just saw someone who pretends to eat a bat to sell records and I thought it was all right. Go for it. >> But I mean the Prague now on the Prague side, we're just going touching on the Prague bands like yes Genesis. I mean I know in Quebec Genesis was like a big band especially with Peter Gabriel right even after but still Peter Gabriel this was a stronghold this market for for bands like Genesis and Super and and >> uh yeah absolutely. >> Yes. And for good reason. I mean, but then again, um, it was 1978 when I went to see Genesis at the Montreal Forum. And by the way, that's where and when I decided I would make music for a living was coming out of that show. I said to my partner and future uh uh band member, I said, I want to be here to do that in 10 years. And he started laughing because he knew me. I was just an idiot with a lot of plans and no. And he started laughing and I said, "Oh yeah, you laugh." We did it in nine. >> It 78. Was it Peter Gabriel was at 78, right? Was Peter? >> No, he was out. And not only was he out, but uh what's his name? Collins. >> No, the guitar player was out, too. >> The tour was called And Then There Were Three. >> Oh, yes. And then there were three the two leave. Yes. >> Because of that and the big song of that day was the one track a truly pop track which put him worldwide was follow you follow me. >> Follow you follow me. Yeah. Yeah. >> From then on that band seized to be a progressive band and became a pop band. >> Okay. >> And that was the first song that did that. Yes. I know what I like was a little bit of a worldwide hit but not the same way as follow you follow me. Follow You, Follow Me was a typical three minute pop song with the word pop written all over it and it was great and I loved it. But I wanted to see what it looked like to do that switch. And then what's his name? Uh the the drummer um Phil Collins became the new singer. >> And it was absolutely amazing to see the job that that guy would do on a live stage to entertain the people. >> Wow. At one point he split the forums into three parts, okay? And had them sing three different things at the same time. So he had this huge choir of people from the audience singing with him under his guidance. Unbelievable. I was sitting there and saying, how is it possible that three people because there were only three people remaining. How is it people that three people is it possible that three people get such reaction from 16,000 12,000 I don't know how many there were the noise was unbelievable you know when the applause came and I thought my god it seems like a DC8 is is taking off right in front of my face there and uh yeah and and and that's when I said I'll be back here in 10 years and the funny thing is that when We did go back in 90 years and we played headline there. Just give me a sec, please. >> Okay, >> we'll wrap up soon. We're going to wrap up soon, but go ahead. >> Guitar player. The one thing that struck me is that when we set foot on stage, that noise there, it was the same thing. >> Wow. >> And I thought, "Wow, really? We get as much noise stepping on stage as Genesis did. Wow. I was amazed. >> Well, thank you for your time. Is there anything else you want to promote before we uh end things? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Uh remember I said I would be snowbirding uh the winter. >> Yes. uh in my uh uh I'm going to do a box videography, not a biography, a videography because I think that the subject is interesting enough to be visual but not interesting enough to be written. >> Okay. >> To be read. >> All right. >> So, keep an eye for that people. Uh >> is this like a is this like a documentary? Is that what you mean? It'll be me talking about the band, but with pictures, with visuals. >> So, kind of like a documentary slash Q&A. >> Okay. >> I'm not sure yet because I don't want to No, no, truly. I'm not sure. It's going to But I know one thing's for sure is it's going to be me talking to you. >> Okay. >> Just like we're doing now. But instead of having someone asking questions, I'm just going to be talking and and telling the story. But in the background, you'll have, for example, when I'm talking about when we played with uh I don't know, Jeff Rosal, there will be probably footage from us being on stage with them at the Coliseum in Quebec City back in 1982, you know, that sort of thing. It's going to be >> visualized, so keep an eye for that. It's probably going to start in December >> or January. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Are you Did you finish filming it or are you in the process? Oh, I'm going to do it like a uh YouTube channel. >> Oh, okay. Good. >> Oh, yeah. I forgot to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to be an episode every week on YouTube. >> Perfect. Okay, so everybody, you can still go pick up these albums, right? Pick them up, right? Here we go. Hold on. Oops. That's not doesn't work like that. >> And here, we'll even throw this one in here. Okay. >> And that's four. Yeah, >> it's four. You can pick those up. And for the people in who don't live in Canada, which is a lot of people who watch a show, explore the box. Thank you for your time, John Mark. >> Thanks for having me. Take care.