The Bitcoin Show - 055 - Nick Flower and Robert Taylor, actors: "The Good Wife"

[Music] Hello everybody and welcome to the Bitcoin show. This is a live CES consumer electronic show 2012 edition and uh we have an amazing opportunity to have uh the cast members from The Good Wife. You've heard of The Good Wife on CBS. Everybody watches it. and uh the and everybody in the Bitcoin world knows that there's going to be a Bitcoin episode this Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time. So, we have with us uh Nicholas Flower. Hi. And Robert Taylor. So, stay tuned. [Music] Hey everybody, welcome to the Bitcoin show. This is Bruce Wagner, you know, and uh I am live here in at CES, a consumer electronic show in Las Vegas. And um I just arrived late last night, but uh we got the most incredible coup because everyone knows that as I said the the good wife on CBS is doing a major episode all about Bitcoin. It's called Bitcoin for Dummies is the title of the episode and they're going to talk about Satoshi and all kinds of stuff. So uh but anyway, we got a major coup because we have with us some of the cast members from The Good Wife. And uh so with us are Nicholas Flower and Robert Taylor. They're in the studio in New York. I'm in Las Vegas. Can you Hey guys. Uh Bruce, we're actually taking over. We're the hosts today. Yes. You're the host. That's right. And I'm the guest. So you can ask me questions. Go ahead. Ask. Well, I I I also want to I want to make clear you're a cast. Uh Nick is a cast member. I was standing in that day when we when we met. So I I'm not a cast member. So you're Oh, no. Not a regular cast member, but you were standing in. Well, you were in the cast that day. Is that it? No, no, no, no. Only Nick. He's the He's the guy that's going to get the credits on the show. Oh, okay. Cast in my house. Cool. I'm sorry. Okay. The I've already been um told to ask obviously the the obvious question. Um what is it like to work with Juliana Margill? Margillis, how do you say your last name? Well, it was it was really great. She was very nice. Um, when I got on set, the very first moment, it was it was pretty funny. I didn't recognize her. Um, you know, we went in for a rehearsal and we started it up. It was with Jason Biggs and, uh, David Fur and she interrupts the scene. Um, and so here here she comes and, you know, she's not in costume yet. She hasn't she hasn't done costume or makeup and she comes in and does her lines and I'm like oh I wonder why her standin is reading her lines and then she introduces herself and it was the straight hair too. I I you know grew up watching er and so you know I have this idea of her with curly hair and so I just it was kind of embarrassing. It really was. But uh she was very very nice. Um, she was very accessible and introduced herself and just was totally normal, very very relaxed, funny. She was, you know, that's how that's how I like my stars to be hot and accessible. That's all you need to be. Yeah. You know, she was uh talking with people on set and just being really nice. She wasn't like um it it wasn't like she needed everyone to know that the that she was on set. She just kind of was on set, you know? It was just living and and doing her her job. That's great. Yeah, that's great. That's how people should be. People are just people anyway. So, people that are full of themselves are just full of themselves. Yeah. So, um All right. So, we're gonna we're gonna come back to the gossip and and dish the dirt as I want to I have a lot more about them, but I want to know about Bitcoin. Had you ever heard of Bitcoin before you were head of this script? No, I had not. You guys I had not. Okay. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. Robert, I have talked with you and I found out you you were already a Bitcoin fan, right? When did you find out about it, Robert? I I I don't know specifically the the the date, but I do remember being in California and I think it was either late ' 09 or early I no, you know, I I feel like it was somewhere mid or or late '09 is when I first heard about it. And I didn't get really into it until it got very close to reaching par with the dollar. Yeah, it's funny how we measure Bitcoin time by the value of Bitcoin, but when it was $7, that's when I got I got in at $1.98, you know, was so funny. Then when it hit 30, I cra bought it at 30 and sold it at a dollar. So, um Okay. So, Nicholas, when um when like how long ago did you were you hand and you the first time you heard the word Bitcoin then? A few weeks ago? Yeah. Well, I guess we shot the episode maybe a month ago and I had I was handed the script maybe a week before we shot the the episode. And so I had very very little time to kind of, you know, do my do my research, but I I did and, you know, kind of got the general overview of, you know, it's obviously been around for a while now to pick up some speed, but um yeah, I find it really really interesting. I I was talking to Robert earlier. I find it so interesting that uh it's really hard to counterfeit. I think that's pretty cool. And uh but yeah, I I was handed the script a week before. I I knew nothing about it, so I did my research and kind of just jumped in. I I I can ask him a couple of questions. So, sure. Uh how about Jason Biggs? How I thought he was super down to earth. Jason Biggs was really cool. Um, my one of my favorite moments on set, well, not on set, just you know, in the experience was my interaction, my first interaction with Jason Bigs. I had to be at the van at 7:30 in the morning um, in like Midtown and we were just to be driven to the studio and no one's really around. It's kind of, you know, just the city's just kind of sleeping still, right? And I see a van and it has the sign that says the good wife and the there's just two people in the van. It's uh the driver and the passenger. And the passenger is his window is down. And I start walking up and the passenger's like, "Nicholas Flower." And I'm like, "Yeah." He goes, "Jason Bigs." My mind is blown. And so I got in the van and just the the three of us kind of just rode to the studio together and it was it was funny. It it was, you know, I didn't want to talk to him too much cuz it was 7:30 in the morning. Like we're all kind of groggy just having our morning coffee. But but I mean he he dresses like in the in like these just casual like Yeah. homeboy jeans and like you know just I think he even saw him with a backpack and just like a grungy jacket and he's really chill. He's really really cool. Uh, and I thought it was really interesting. Um, seeing him kind of I mean I don't want to say starruck but a little starruck with Bob Balaban. Yeah. I mean you know it like you know Bob Baliban's it's Bob Baliban you know so and they had never met before and so I thought that was really cool to see him being like you know around someone who he really admired. And then who does Bob play in the in the in the episode? Um Bob plays a well I don't want to give it away. He said he's he's actually re um he's uh re he's a reoccurring character now. This is his second uh appearance on the show and he plays my boss. So nice. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I just haven't name but I think we got him back. Hey, I'm hoping back. So, Nicholas, when you were handed this script and it said Bitcoin in it, you had never heard of the word Bitcoin. Like, did you have any idea what it was? I had no idea. Um, the only thing I really knew, you know, from the very beginning was that my character, uh, a federal agent from the Treasury was very nervous about this strange online currency that had been created. and and my my job was to basically nail the creator. And so from then I just kind of Googled it and did a little research and, you know, found a bunch of different, you know, topics on it, you know, from Wikipedia to YouTube shows to to everything. And it's it was really clear to me that that it's not just some passing trend. It seems so you were you knew that it was actually something real. It wasn't completely fictional. Yes, I did. Knew it was real. Okay. And so but what because somebody had said like, "Oh, no, that's a real thing." I mean, I literally just Googled it. I I just I didn't really know what it was. And um actually the original You read the script and you Googled it. Is this real? The original title uh was different. It was called Finding Mr. Bitcoin kind of a play on finding Mr. Goodyear, right? Yeah, exactly. So, uh, so when you So, you play the ro I'm I can't hear Robert, but when you when you you uh I had to pass the phone back and forth. I know it's crazy. So, when you um were So, you play the the attorney who uh has the client Satoshi who um and you're protecting his identity. Is that right? No, I'm actually a federal agent from the Treasury who I'm a pair I'm one half of a pair of federal agents who's very nervous about Mr. Bitcoin himself and they're basically after um we're kind of aware that uh Jason Big's character is an online lawyer and we suspect that his client is Mr. Bitcoin. So, Mr. Bitcoin. Yeah, that's what that's actually the original I don't know if I'm supposed to say that, but that was the original title of the episode was I don't think that I don't changing titles. Finding Mr. Bitcoin. That's funny. I like Bitcoin for Dummies. I like that better. Say our our website is Yeah. Yeah. I hope they don't get sued by the four dummies book series, but that's okay. It's all good. That's CBS's problem. So um so what was so um when you Googled it and I mean you already knew it was a real thing. I mean what was your first impression about it? Does this seem like I mean did did it seem like this is a real thing or I mean not you know it's a real thing but like this is a uh a growing movement or does it seem did it seem like a real off-the-wall uh u you know specialty kind of thing? Well, you know, that's that's really interesting because when I Googled it, I definitely found a multitude of of of topics on on it. And I would say like the first three were uh you know, Bitcoin and Ponzi scheme, Ponzi scheme, Ponzi scheme. And it was um that was the first thing that entered my brain when I I uh read about it. And so I definitely was approaching it thinking like, okay, this is um probably, you know, passing quickly, but then as I as I, you know, read on and kind of found about found out about all the investors and and you know, how how many people were involved and, you know, how how serious it is, could kind of see that it it's going to be around. It looks like it's going to be around for a while. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's not a it's not a Ponzi scheme obviously because the definition of a by definition a Ponzi scheme is that the new uh new investors capital that they put in goes to the old investors. Um so obviously it's not a Ponzi scheme but u you know that's people like to throw those words around because they don't know what it is. It's brand new you know in the history of mankind. It's never existed before. So they try and put it in a box that already has a label. So they'll put it in, you know, Ponzi scheme or MLM or all kinds of crazy nonsense. But it it is definitely not that. So, um anyway, people people love to and sorry to interrupt. Uh I just was going to say people fear what they don't understand. And when it's new like that, it's scary. Yes, that's right. That's for sure. They do. And it's I mean like I I always say I mean this is really new in the history of mankind. There's never been a currency that's completely decentralized and limited in quantity. It's not issued by any bank or government uh you know or corporation. And this is really really unique. So um of course you know the good wife and uh is very timely with its uh you know topics everything from Occupy Wall Street to now Bitcoin because it's it's in the news. Okay, this seems like a good time to uh take a break and thank our sponsors who are bringing us to you obviously. Um Mount Doc is mpgox.com. Mount Doc is the place to go online to buy and sell about Bitcoin. They are the world's largest exchange. Mount to is to Bitcoin like the New York Stock Exchange is to stock. 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You can call 646-580022 from anywhere in the world. Uh that's a New York number and just check out buybitcoin.com and bitcoinsolutions.com. Bitcoin solutions is another venture of ours that we are launching which is uh merchant services. If your business whether it's an online web store or a brickandmortar business of any kind, whether you're an accountant, a CPA, a nail salon or a restaurant, it doesn't matter. You want to get set up to accept Bitcoin in just moments. There is zero transaction fees, zero monthly and maintenance fees, zero hardware investment, and there's no such thing as a chargeback. You'll never ever can get a charge back with Bitcoin. We're there to help you set up your business to accept Bitcoin. That's bitcoinsolutions.com. Let's check that out. Okay, so now back to uh Robert and Nicholas. So, where were we? Um, so I was asking you, um, Nicholas, so like after you Googled Bitcoin, I you you the first thing since you read where that it's a Ponzi scheme or something, and then you started read realizing and reading that it's it's actually there's more to it than that. What like how large did you perceive that the community was, the Bitcoin community, the user base? Initially, I I didn't realize how big it was. Um, you know, it kind of it kind of seemed like uh your standard internet bashers, you know, your trolls just kind of lingering around. And as I did more research, I I realized that the community was very large. And as a as a new community, it's kind of amazing how how fast it's grown and how much it's expanded and and picked up speed and Yeah. So, that was really really interesting to me. Okay. Did Did the uh I'm wondering what was that? Oh, I didn't say anything. Oh, that's my I'm sorry. That's myself coming back. I'm hearing myself. Um, sorry. No, my questioning echo is if the uh cast or anybody bought any Bitcoin knowing, you know, that this is uh going to be major major publicity. Yeah, actually that's what we were just talking about. Um, I I think that that probably will uh in in some way uh help help the uh market or help the community. That's for sure. once this this comes out uh once the episode airs on Sunday. I think that um I think you can expect something like that. I mean, I'm definitely not a uh you know, I'm I'm I'm not an investor. I'm not well I'm not an investor nor am I, you know, someone to uh really uh share much of an opinion on on on the the market itself, but I I would I would say that if it's so popular right now and then you take a show like The Good Wife, which is an Emmy and Golden Globe winning show, which a lot of people watch, I think that it's going to really raise a lot of curiosity for the people that have no idea what it is and exactly what a great title for that, you know, Bitcoin for dummies. What a great title to get people even more interested. That's the phrase I always use when I was describing bitcoinme.com is that I created it kind of as a Bitcoin for dummies just to explain it in really simple language to you know margin barely can work a mouse brows and uh but yeah, the price has gone up like crazy. It's 691 at this moment and it seems like it's going up about 25 cents to 50 cents a day. Wow. I mean, at least it seems like. So, um, fascinating. And this is right after early days next week, like Monday through Wednesday next week, there's be a huge buying spree. Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Who knows, you know, after all this, I might I might go out and get some Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, talk to me after. I can tell you can hook you up. Totally. Yeah, please do. I've got connections. I could just ring up Satoshi and he could get you some more. All right. I'm in the heart of the Mount Blood at CES, so uh we can get you some bitcoins. No problem. Nice. But yeah, I would definitely I mean if you're I was gonna I mean I've been telling my friends if you're going to buy Bitcoin definitely do it before Sunday at 9. Yeah, I the Monday morning water cooler talk they're going to say did you see that the good wives last night? Yeah, you know that's a real thing. We should buy that and uh it's going to go nuts. Who knows? It could be 10 times the current value by then. There's no telling really. It could be but it's really exciting to see all these products. We're we're going to be doing some subsequent episodes where we're uh showing you a lot of the new products that are on display here to dispense bitcoins from an ATM and um also to dispense cash from ATMs with you know from Bitcoin to cash and vice versa and also also at the point of sale terminals and devices for um businesses to accept Bitcoin. Super super easy. Uh, Bruce, that's I think it's going to be huge. Mhm. I want to say that, you know, it's all there's always the possibility there that there can be over speculation because of this show and the people that are uh in in the in the community um can I mean it's there's always the foreseeable possibility that there that there's a kind of a confirmation loop, a kind of a yes confirmation bias and they and they might over speculate the the the value of of bitcoins. Um but then the But likewise, there's always a possibility that such a popular show like The Good Wife is just going to open an entire new community of people that are going to get interested and uh start investing in in Bitcoin. So, it's it's interesting to ultimately it's going to explode. Oh, well, I know I you I I think you've made some predictions, right? What you're saying you made some I think what I was what I was saying was that Sorry, there's a little delay. What I was going to say is that I'm telling my friends I mean this like um if you're going to buy Bitcoin anytime soon, buy it before Sunday. Um if you're I would not buy it necessarily next week because everyone's going to be buying it next week and you're going to get caught by that speculators uh little it's not a bubble, but it's like a little bubble. It's going to it'll it's going to go up and it'll come back down a bit. It'll correct later. So if you're going to buy it as an investment, buy it and hold it for at least a year and you can't go wrong. As long as you buy it and hold it for a year, you really can't go wrong. But if you're gonna buy it in the next few weeks, definitely buy it before Sunday. Right. Right. Especially if you're trying to do some some quick investing. Yeah. It seems it seems like that's because I mean it could go up to it could go up to $70 a bitcoin next week and then come back down to to 10. If it goes up if it goes up to 70, I'm definitely pulling out. And it's gone. Yeah. Well, it's all about timing, isn't it? Well, I was telling you uh when we met that I was uh I I made I made the decision to pull out at 30. Okay. I was like, "This is this is good." And I sent all my money to I This is This is a true story. I sent my money to Mount Gaus and uh it did it Mount Gaus did not like give me a confirmation that they had my money yet. So, I had a birthday party to go to in Brooklyn. And so I left my house and I just left my computer and then uh the next day it it went from 30 to 20 and I was like I was like it's going to I I thought it's going to go back up one more time and then the I went to Vegas where you are now Bruce and the the Mount Gawk scandal happened the the hacking the hacking scandal there was a hacking scandal it caused a lot of uh like uncertainty in the fun when it doubles but when it cuts in It's not so much fun, right? So, so I'm still holding on to my bitcoins. Uh, and uh, but that's the thing, you know, hold on to them because the thing is if you bought them at at uh, when you bought them at 30, even if people bought them at 30, if it goes up to 70, if it goes up to 100 by the end of the year, it's still a great investment even if you bought it at 30, right? You have to hold on to it for a year, right? And try not to buy at the level, of course. I I actually my show on YouTube, which is Praxgirl, P R A X G I R L, where we talk about the science of praxiology, we only accept Bitcoin donations right now. Although there's people that are really pushing us to accept like PayPal donations and other things like that, but uh we only accept Bitcoin donations. So, I haven't cashed in any of those donations. Yes, that's great. You should you got to hold on to them. By the way, I'm a big fan of Frack Girl. I love it. I just discovered it the other day because I was uh you know, we were It's so funny because we were hanging out with you know, Dan and uh my friends uh uh Chris and Fred were like, "Oh yeah, he's on um uh The Good Wife." And they're like, "Uh-huh." And then and uh he's he's the one who created Prax Girl. And they're like, "Prag girl? Oh my god, Pax Girl." They weren't even impressed with The Good Wife, but when they heard you were you were Prag Girl, you were buying Frag Girl, they were like real. But uh yeah, that's an amazing production by the way. Thank you. And I think it's great that you accept only Bitcoin. I think more businesses should do that. It just really if you want to be a Bitcoin evangelist, you're not a Bitcoin evangelist unless you say our business only accepts Bitcoin. Right. Right. To get Bitcoin, you know, buy Bitcoin.com. Right. Right. There's there's reasons for us to want to only accept Bitcoin. I mean, a lot of it had to do with Pragirl herself uh valuing anonymity. um you know, she's a she's like an attractive girl and she gets a lot of like trolls and stalkers and stuff and so there's a there's there's a value in that that you can't really find out who's behind it. Although although I mean I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm here. I'm the creator and all that. Uh but uh I was going to say that the important thing that I wanted to say out of this whole thing is that I think everybody that is either looking to invest in Bitcoin or believes in Bitcoin for ideological reasons or any reason why you're getting in Bitcoin, it's always to your best it's always in your best interest to know as much as possible about what you're getting involved in. And that's why you should definitely learn about the science of praxiology and um understand what money is. Uh I'm not claiming bitcoins are money, but they're um they they are uh definitely a medium of exchange. So you have to understand um why do bitcoins have any value at all? And uh uh you know why is it that that bitcoins work when all these people try to put it down and all that? And mostly it's because the people the creators of bit of bitcoin if it's one person or a group of people they figured out how to um display property rights in bitcoins. We can distinguish that a certain bitcoin belongs to one person as opposed to another person. this the the the fact that you can't counterfeit bitcoins is uh is is the way to show that there is some sort of property right in the in the abstraction because really it's just a bunch of it's a bits bits of information but that's that's really what's going to that's that's what's going to make or break Bitcoin as long as they you can enforce property rights uh there's going to be a a value for it for anonym imity for ease of use for avoiding taxes for all these different things. I and it varies with who wants to get involved. Um but uh I ju I just think it's important for people to really you can never know too much about what you're getting involved in. So So it's definitely worth it for people. If you want to learn about praxiology, go to PRAGIRL. That's what I say. Yeah. Go to PRAGirl's channel on YouTube. Yeah. What's the Oh, so it's you just go to YouTube. It's in P R A Xirl RX R. Right. P R A X G I R L P girl. And that's where you know we we teach the science of praxiology and it explains these kind of things. It's it's really it's the parent science of economics. Um it's the logic of all human action. from it is where you you understand what what uh what money is and how it comes to be and why it's important and all that. And um well I you know I'm telling you she's educating me because I thought I didn't know praxiology from reflexology. I didn't know what I never heard of it before but uh I'm getting an education just watching those and it's so easy. She makes it so um you know easy to understand. It's excellent. It's really really an excellent service to educate people about that. Yeah, we we just did our episode on money uh last month. So, uh we we talk about how money comes to be and why it's important. And uh our last episode, which uh actually came out on Monday, we talk about economic calculation and what that is. And money serves as a common denominator that allows you to really determine uh your the this the stat this the state that you're in uh as to whether you're going to be able to achieve an end or not. Uh that sounds a little a little complicated, but it's not. It's it's just all it means is that if you're in a barter economy, you have to determine the value of something uh as opposed to what you're what you want to trade for it. So you so if someone has oranges and you have an apple, you have to value the orange more than the apple. Uh and you have to perform this type of valuation with every single thing that you want to trade. Money just removes that. Uh so something like Bitcoin if it were to be the predominant medium of exchange in a society an online society for example uh it allows people to do to to to basically do accounting ledgers and you can add and subtract and multiply and divide one good which is Bitcoin against all the other goods you want to buy. It's very simple. This is it's we we think in these terms all the time with money. That's the definition of money, right? I mean, we do this all the time, right? We we say, well, how much money do I have in my pocket and what am I going to be able to do with that money? And it just eliminates it allows a human being to think in a certain mode that is not possible under barter. And so, that's that's like what we try to talk about. So, exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, barter Yeah. barter people bring it up all the time and it's an excellent concept, but really money is just an intermediary essentially. Right. Yeah. It's essentially it's still barter. The only thing is that now there's this common good that we all that we all trade every we we all agreed upon it, right? Well, the it's not it's doesn't come about like through a central planner. That's what that's what's so interesting about Bitcoin. It's like Oh, I meant uh USD. I meant USD. Well, yeah, USD. But but you have to understand the history of why USD still has value. This is this is a concept that we have called the money regression theory. We have to understand how is it that pieces of paper that aren't backed by anything, how is it that people still accept them for payment for real goods and services. And what you find is that that actually uh I think I have one in my pocket here. You find that once upon a time uh they were backed by this, right? So every every dollar was actually the the piece of paper was a representation of one of these in the US Treasury, which is where you're supposed to be from in the show. And at some point they stopped redeeming the pieces of paper for this. But there's a reason why the piece of paper still has a value because people were trading it beforehand. Mhm. So this this is the this is the logic that you have to understand. And I was going to say, Bruce, the only reason that we're not going to cover uh Bitcoin on our show is because if Bitcoin does turn out to be some sort of trend that dies off, because even if Bitcoin is even if Bitcoin has a real use, it's foreseeable that some technology could could surpass and and replace bitcoins. And if Bitcoin loses value uh on a massive scale and and goes down to 1 cent again, uh the the reason that we don't want to talk about Bitcoin on our show is because this this in terms of propaganda would would be seen as a as a as a win for the people that talk badly about Bitcoin and a lose for everyone that supports Bitcoin. So, we don't want to get into that kind of game and we don't talk about Bitcoin. um aside from accepting donations because it is possible that that uh the the market can go in another direction and people are going to try to use that as some sort of ad hominemum attack to show that praxiology uh is not valid or something. So we don't talk about that but but nevertheless you can use the practology is a universal principle a universal truth regardless of Bitcoin before and after right so I understand and also Bitcoin I mean the thing that gives Bitcoin value besides its functionality it's it's very very unique properties in that but but what really gives it value is just an agreement of people saying I agree to give it value you agree to give it value we you know people give it value by acceptting ing it and saying I think it's valuable. Yes. And if everybody changes their mind, which could happen, anything could happen. Um that could happen to the US dollar or the euro in Greece, right? Whatever, you know, it could happen to anything. Yeah. Everybody suddenly uh it lost favor then of course value would go to nothing. Well, what we try to say is um as opposed to people that talk about Bitcoin and talk about they use loaded terms like intrinsic value and things like that. Uh because a lot of people that try to dis people that try to say Bitcoin uh is is worthless. What they say is Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. For example, silver has value as a as a as a good because it's used in industrial uses and computers and things like that, right? But they say bitcoins are just pieces of data and they don't have any intrinsic value. Well, what we say is nothing has intrinsic value. So in a sense when you say people agree on it, you both you Bruce and and um and Nick said people agree on it. I think in a sense that that it does apply. What that means is that when you act to trade your dollars for bitcoins, you're acknowledging in your action that you value bitcoins. So that's all that's all that we're that's all that we're that uh that we're concerned with. People are val people are appreciating the val the market value of bitcoins through their actions. People are buying and trading bitcoins and they're using it to buy market uh market, you know, goods and services. I play poker with bitcoins cuz I can't play poker online with real uh with I was going to say real money with dollars anymore. Uh cuz the Obama administration shut that down. I was I was really into it. I really like playing. I was too. Oh, are you online pok Full Tilt? Uh, back in the day. Yeah, all of them. Full Tilt, Party Poker, Poker Stars. Yeah, that's I love I love that. I love that. So, I can't do that anymore, but I can do it with Bitcoin. It's interesting. Yeah. Don't tell me that. I don't want to know. Let me intrinsic value. Yeah. Let me pass you to Nick, though, because I've talked too long. Okay. Okay. No, I was just going to say about intrinsic value that Yeah, I don't buy that at all. I think that whole argument is garbage because you know gold has some good value in industry and silver does and paper obviously paper can be used to light a fire in your fireplace and that's about as good as the US dollar. You know, that's just all nonsense because those values uh the intrinsic value of the substance of the the thing. Uh yeah, it has some value apparently, but that has no relation whatsoever to the value of gold as a store of wealth, a store of money. So, you know, the same thing with digital, by the way, the US dollar is not really paper anyway. Like 99% of all US dollars are just a fictional digital currency and they're literally fictional. Well, they just add more zeros at the Fed and type in more zeros and they made more dollars. So, if you want to talk about a fictional digital currency, it's the US dollar for sure. Um, Bitcoin at least has cryp, you know, state cryptography behind it that people cannot print more just because they feel like it. So, you know, money is, you know, money could be uh, you know, clamshells. That's where that term, you know, clams comes from. It could be anything that we all say, "Yeah, there's only so much of this and let's let's call it money. Let's treat it like money." You treat it like money, it's money, like a word. Have you used the word enough? Well, I I Yeah, I I do want to say one thing about that, though. It's it's not as though Bitcoin could have been money because Satoshi decided that it was money. The it the when something becomes money is really up to historians to look back at because it's not easily definable. like uh you know there's a lot of historians that try to say that there was no money in certain societies of the past but then um uh historians that apply what I consider to be proper economic theory uh are able to identify that things that uh wither away that we can't find anymore must have been money because of the size of the markets that that we can see existed in in in this society. So what I mean to say is logically bitcoins must have had value to people for some other use before they became money. If in fact they are money, they must have had some other use. And what I believe that use was is a facilitator of of of exchange through primarily anonymous means. I think that was the real um that I think that's the real interest. It becomes money once people once once the society treats it like money because what happens is uh rather than being traded for 1 cent uh at some point it gets the the value gets appreciated in like this kind of snowball effect because even people that didn't want to use bitcoins before and saw no value in the anonymity start to value it simply because enough people are using it as a medium of exchange. So all all I'm trying to say is that it's not money from the get- go. And it's possible and I I wouldn't say whether bitcoins are money now or not, but it's possible uh that at some point they became money. Uh but I don't know. But the point is in the last two years people have started to use this this device in order to buy goods and services. sometimes illegal services, drugs and things like that. Yeah. But uh it's not really up it's not really it's not Satoshi's decision or our decision when it becomes money. It becomes money when the society treats it like money and societies I mean that's that's kind of a difficult term to to define as well but but but but that's I don't really care whether it's money or not. All I care about is will it achieve will it help me achieve my end. If my end is to buy acid from on Silk Road, then that's I need bitcoins, you know, that's no seriously. Silk Road is this website. It's like the Amazon.com of drugs. Okay. And uh and you can you can buy illegal drugs there using bitcoins. Wow. You know, it's on this uh secret internet or whatever. But but I mean I'm just the thing is I mean that's yeah that's definitely one use case and that's obviously one that's uh very uh widely reported but there's there's also see like Google uh Google wallet I mean everybody is going for a better form factor for money um in day-to-day spending everywhere I mean the the uh subway fair or whatever restaurants and you know hair salons and whatever it is. So if I my my thing is I I believe that I mean By definition, my definition, Bitcoin is money already because I know that I can go I can now get I go to see a massage therapist and I can go to lunch and at dinner and I can spend with Bitcoin and I can also get cash readily with Bitcoin too. So, it's it it's already become money in my world at least. Um, and we're uh a lot of our initiatives are setting up all kinds of brick and brick andmortar businesses to accept it like every type CPAs, makeup artists, you know, you name it. vitamin stores. I mean, absolutely every kind of business all throughout Manhattan and throughout the world. Um, so as that spreads and our point of sale systems become better, I think it's going to happen like literally like wildfire, you're going to see that, wow, this is even easier and better than Google Wallet or any of these other initiatives. And it's really funny. I mean the the other thing is that the um you know back in the old days when they would literally travel down the the trade routes like the road and they would carry bags of gold and silver um somebody discovered that the uh you know the goldsmith's note on paper was a lot better form factor. So from a technology standpoint carrying paper was much preferable to carrying bags of gold. So this is the same thing. It's sometimes the technology itself, the fact that it's it's uh you know as anonymous as you want it to be and it's instantaneous and it's zero fees and all that. It's just the technology that's going to win and the form factor of it. So the by and also the fact that it's decentralized, not issued by anybody and it can't be um you know uh they can't create more of it just at a on a whim. That's true, Bruce. because of those issues. I I was going to say, but gold has the same um qualities to it. And in a in a Well, I was going to say that in a you can't give me a million of a bitcoin. I mean, of gold. Well, I I can if I have a an interface provided to me by some bank in a in a libertarian society uh where there's no, you know, if there's no government, I can essentially do the same thing with gold. You know, I can do e- gold exchanges and things like that. But it's got to be decentralized. It's still it's still centralized. So people would view it as preferable, but it's not there's no authority that could be corrupted, you know. Well, yeah. I'm and that's why that's why I put the that's why I put the the um the qualification that this would have to happen in a in a world where there's no government that I as long as there's a government I see that something like a Bitcoin technology will have some sort of value to people. But I'm just saying that in a in a in an anarchist society I I don't think Bitcoin would last very long. I think that it would it would start to lose its its value pretty quickly because you can do the same thing with gold and uh and gold's been money much longer if than Bitcoin. So people trust gold. Yeah. Well, I mean I don't know gold you can't do the same thing with gold. You can only do the same thing with a representation of like a digital currency that's backed by gold and then controlled by a central authority. So, you know, yeah, I mean, it's people, well, it's not it's not a central author a central a central business that a warehouse that holds your holds your gold for you. But there's a there's a it's called money that exists now, not without a government. But, but look, but Bruce, you you kept your you kept your bitcoins in my Bitcoin and you lost them all. you were you were using a service to protect your bitcoins just like people with gold use banks to protect their gold, you know. So, there's definitely a value in having that. Doesn't matter what society you're living in. I'm I'm just making the case that in a world without government, they that that bitcoins wouldn't have any value. And that's just to let everybody that that's an investor know that's really the way you can gauge what's what's the future of Bitcoin is how tyrannical is your government getting. You know is are are they raising your taxes beyond the the point of of no return then then Bitcoin will continuously go up. But if if the government's collapsing because of you know debt ceilings and stuff and they start to pull austerity measures and destroy you know destroy part big parts of the government and and liberalize their their uh society then maybe bitcoins go down you know uh then they start you know you know if they remove regulations on gold then suddenly everyone will switch to gold. I don't know. It's the job of the It's the job of people like you, Bruce, who are entrepreneurs to put your money where your mouth is and and and tell us what's going to show show us by example what's going to be the uh the thing that makes everybody money. But hey, let me let me pass you to Nick. I I keep I keep I talking too much. I've tied. Nick is the guy. Look, Nick is the guy on the on the commercial. He's the one that arrests Jason Bigs or detains him or whatever. Yeah, you know. Wait a minute. Can you hold the mic a little closer because I couldn't hear you. I just I just said Nick is the guy on the commercial that puts his hands on Jason Biggs and takes him away. Oh, okay. Yes. Yes, I can see him doing that. Yeah, that's the tyrannical government. Exactly. One thought about the one one other thought about the uh the idea. I mean if if there were no government and we were in an anarchist society and u we had uh companies there would be a private company that would warehouse gold. I mean basically they're operating the same as gold money. But I I disagree with one thing you said and that is that that Bitcoin would have no value because in my opinion um Bitcoin is still superior because you don't need any gold and you don't need any warehouse and you don't need to trust any company with a back with a warehouse of gold. It isn't going to just uh you know load up the trucks and disappear in the night. You can protect your your own Bitcoin. I mean now obviously I've learned the hard way. Lots of people have. But you there you can protect your own gold. You can predict your own Bitcoin. Easier than predicting your own gold. I think a lot easier to predict the Bitcoin digits. Uh I I think Bitcoin is open the same vulnerability as as gold. I mean, you still have to I mean, if let's say you print your bitcoins out on a piece of paper and then put it in a safety deposit box or in a in in a safe in your house, it can be broken into just like if you put gold in that safe, you know? I mean, it has Yeah. But there's other ways too, like you can you can encrypt it in a patent and email it to Switzerland, you know, or something and you can literally leave the country without a stitch of clothing and you still have your bitcoins. You can't do that with gold. You you have to physically move uh a metal which is very heavy. So, there's pros and cons. You know, that's true. It'll it'll work its way out. Yeah. Either way, I mean, I think they're both good. I think they're they're for their purposes, they're they're different. Um, obviously you can't get there any actual gold around to go to lunch and, you know, shop uh in the main street stores. Um, but but anyway, they there's there are pros and cons, but it's evolving. I think that definitely gold, silver, and bitcoin are um the future for sure. I think people are just tired of the uh the banks and especially the banks and the government. You know, I pointed out that uh in China, the government owns the banks and in the US the bank either way, it's basically the same thing. They're in bed with each other and people are fed up with it. Uh I I hear what I hear what you're saying. Ask uh uh but you should ask Nick uh what what uh how they trained him to be a government agent because that's the real question. Oh yeah, that's a great question, Nick. Well, they didn't How do they tell you? They uh you know, they they kind of just trusted me to to to do my own thing. They didn't really give me any training other than the uh the costume. The costume was pretty um pretty great. And I have this really long overcoat and a really nice tie and it really, you know, put me in the I even had a badge. It was great. But you have a real government agents don't dress so well probably, you know. I I don't know. I think that if I were a government agent, I would look like that. We We even had pieces apparently. Apparently, we were we were supposed to have guns, but never got to use them. I I guess our We were always wearing our overcoats, so they just never really gave them to us. We were armed. Interesting. Supposed to be armed. What is the Treasury? You were supposed to be a Treasury Department agent of some sort or FBI or Federal Treasury? Yeah, federal treasury. Not FBI, though. No. Treasury. I wonder if the Treasury even has their own law enforcement people. I don't know. I doubt it. Well, if uh Interesting. If you know, Mr. Bitcoin starts to show his face, then, you know, we'll pop out. Yeah. It probably be the FBI or the CIA. Yeah. Or NSA or something like that. or they'll just give me a call too. I mean, you know, after Sunday hopefully hopefully people will realize we'll come to the senses and just call me. Yeah, that's right. They can call you anytime we need to find Mr. So, did you research about Satoshi and you you know the whole mythology about who this guy is? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I think that um well, I actually I I I don't want to get too much into the episode. I don't want to give anything away. Um, but I I did a a little bit, but you know, um, but not not a ton. No, you know that that it seems though that like the episode is inspired by the the New Yorker article. Um, maybe it's inspired by something else. I'm trying to think of I know that article. There was a New Yorker article where this guy goes to a convention and tries to find Mr. Bitcoin, a reporter. Yeah, I think that that it may be based on that a little bit. It's it's a the episode there is a scene where um it's in a convention and I was there. It's in Chicago and um you actually may or may not I know see uh you may actually meet the guy that created it. You may not though. I don't want to I'm not going to say it. Leave it in the air. You know, one of the things we were the Bitcoin community was really intrigued with was that they in the little synopsis, they called it a uh an illegal cryptocurrency. Like as if having a creating a currency was illegal, which it nobody has claimed that it's illegal in the US or UK, right? I guess I guess in this world, you know, this this slightly fictionalized world, it's illegal. Um, yeah, there was a there was a senator that was calling to make it officially illegal, Chuck Schumer. Okay. Yeah. Um, he Okay, so you heard that one guy. Mhm. Yeah. So, who are the writers that wrote this to come up with these stories? You know, they they I I don't know. I' I've never met the writers. Um, but I know that they are basically always working. I know that. Did they change the script while you were at They did. We got script changes every day. Um, and I'm, you know, I'm under the impression that that's just always happening and it's just the way it goes because they're, um, constantly in need of adjustments. Uh, whether it be just for a location situation or um, a line adjustment or the fact that this character is not in the scene anymore, so they need to take out lines or whatever it is. But they are always always working and Yeah, they they don't get a break. Fascinating. They're really on the cutting edge of uh what's happening. They must be scouring the news to find uh stories like this. Yeah, we got kudos to them for finding these hot stories. Absolutely. Um Yeah. So, I guess we got to wrap it up here, Bruce. Yeah. Yeah. It's time, isn't it? I I'm I I'm not I don't have my time clocked here because I'm all remote on the phone and everything, but um in spite of our technical glitches, I'm so appreciative of you guys uh taking the time to join us uh before this episode airs on Sunday. I really appreciate you coming into the studio. No problem. No problem. Thanks for having us. All right. Yeah. We we'll follow up afterwards and see in the wrath of what happens the week of uh the Bitcoin for Nummies episode. So uh be sure everybody watch on CBS the good wife. The good wife. Everybody already watches. They already know. But it's Sunday night 9:00 Eastern. You're going to watch episode which Oh yeah, I'll be watching it anyway. Everybody will. I I guess that on YouTube go to Frack Girl. It's P R Agirl. Practical on YouTube. Check that out. Science of praxiology. Yeah, praxiology. Yeah, you'll learn all about things you never knew you needed to know. Well, thanks so much, Nick. Nicholas Flower Flower Taylor again. So appreciate it. We're going to do this again. Thank you so much. Take care. I'll see you when I get back to New York. Bye. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]