The Art of True Happiness | Dr. Arthur Brooks

There are three macronutrients to the happiest life. The happiest people have enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. Those are the three macronutrients. Now, that's important because it means you need to enjoy your life and and you need to know the difference between enjoyment and pleasure, which many people don't. I mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the secret to happiness. It's the secret to rehab. Satisfaction, which is the joy of an accomplishment or an activity after struggle. And last but not least is meaning. The why of your existence. The happiest people have a bead on those three things and they pursue those three things really, really actively. Now, inside all three of those things, there's this funny thing called unhappiness. Inside each of the macronutrients of happiness, you find discontent and frustration and a lot of suffering. If you spend your life, which many people do today, trying to avoid unhappiness, trying to avoid and eliminate suffering, they will paradoxically miss their own happiness. Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast, where we [music] discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. [music] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Arthur Brooks. Arthur Brooks is a professor at Vanderbilt University and a senior fellow at the Harvard Business School. Today we discuss what makes people truly happy and what this thing we call happiness is really all about. What I love about Arthur Brooks and what you'll realize today is that he looks to experimental data, philosophy, his and others experiences to arrive at specific questions that you can ask yourself to determine what matters most to you and what stands in the way of you actually getting those things. In fact, I must say this episode with Arthur Brooks is one of my favorite ever on the Hubberman Lab podcast. He is brutally honest. He's open. He's generous with knowledge that can help you, the listener. And he's incredibly humble. Thanks to Arthur, the conversation you're about to hear is one that I'm confident you'll want to think about, act on, and come back to periodically. I can say for myself with certainty that it's the conversation I wish I'd heard long ago. Arthur doesn't have all the answers, nor does he claim to, but I do think he has a sort of hardearned compass and a set of maps that we can all apply to have a much better and indeed a great life. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my conversation with Dr. Arthur Brooks. Dr. Arthur Brooks. Welcome. >> Thank you, Dr. Andrew Huberman. >> We're only going to call each other doctor once at the beginning of this podcast. I'm so happy you're here. >> Me, too. >> Yeah. I consider you a friend. And um >> before we became friends, uh >> you were already my teacher. I was learning a ton from you. You have a a ton of wisdom. before you like step into your humble self and >> push aside. I just really want to highlight that because um that there are a lot of people influencing, educating, uh advising, coaching, etc. But uh you represent like really the the confluence of of ideas and practices and wisdom in ways that I and and people can really understand and benefit from. So really looking forward to having you here. >> Thank you. Likewise. I mean, what you've done over the past now 5 and a half years with this podcast >> just about. Yeah. >> You changed the whole way that educators can reach a lot of people. What we want as educators, science in the public interest. We want to touch people's lives. We want to lift them up and bring bring them together using science, using ideas, and how how how do you do that? You showed the way because what you did was you started this podcast within 6 months. It was a big deal. And what you showed was a whole generation of people younger and older than you. I'm I'm older than you, that this is something that people can do, that we can reach people. You made that possible. You made that possible for me. It was an incredible gift. >> Oh, well, I'm honored and um thank you. Um I realized today that perhaps the toughest part about this conversation is going to be make sure that I keep you focused on you a little bit. You're so humble and uh but I appreciate the kind words and I consider us colleagues and friends. So you're known as uh the happiness guy. >> You know a lot about it, what it is and what it isn't. >> So let's start with um first principles there that people can really wrap their head around and apply. Uh what's the difference between unhappiness and happiness or is that even the right model? >> Yeah, most people start with the wrong model of what happiness actually is. So you can't define unhappiness until you can define happiness. And happiness is not what most people think. Most people conceive of happiness as a feeling, as as an emotion. And that's quite wrong in the same way that the smell of your turkey is not the same thing as your Thanksgiving dinner. The smell of the turkey is evidence of your Thanksgiving dinner. And the feelings of happiness are evidence of happiness. And when I first came into the field, I mean, I've been a behavioral scientist for 30 years, but I started specializing in the science of human happiness exclusively. I wrote the first book of mine on this in 2008. But but I decided in 2019 after I took a hiatus from academia to go run a big think tank in Washington DC that I was going to specialize for the rest of my career in this thing that most people believe they wanted. I was going to really make it make it work. And there's of course happiness. People want to be happier. And the first thing that I realized is there wasn't a very good definition of happiness. It was just so [snorts] crazy. The thing that everybody wants, they can't quite define it. Uh, I can't put words to it, but I know it when I feel it. This is what I would get when I would ask my classes. So, what do you think you're studying? Or it's how I feel when I'm with the people that I love or or or doing the things that I enjoy. And I recognized that this would be completely inadequate in any other area of science. And so, I went back to try to find the right metaphor, the right parallel field to define happiness. And I felt that the field of nutrition did it really well by taking food and breaking it into macronutrients and micronutrients. So I asked myself, okay, what are the macronutrients of happiness? What are the fundamental elemental building blocks of happiness? And to figure that out, you go and you look at the people who have the highest life satisfaction that's measured in robust and proper ways, good construct validity, good science behind it. And what you find is doing kind of a factor analysis is that there are three macronutrients to the happiest life. The happiest people have enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. Those are the three macronutrients. Now, that's important because it means you need to enjoy your life. And and you need to know the difference between enjoyment and pleasure, which many people don't. I mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the secret to happiness. It's the secret to rehab, right? And so, so you have to understand, right? For sure. And uh um satisfaction, which is the joy of an accomplishment or an activity after struggle. And last but not least is meaning, the why of your existence. The happiest people have a bead on those three things and they pursue those three things really, really actively. Now, inside all three of those things, there's this funny thing called unhappiness. Inside each of the macronutrients of happiness, you find discontent and frustration and a lot of suffering. And so the first or I should say the second uh uh misunderstanding about happiness is that it's incompatible with unhappiness. It's not. If you spend your life, which many people do today trying to avoid unhappiness, trying to avoid and eliminate suffering, they will paradoxically miss their own happiness. So that's the first thing to understand. Could you drill a little bit deeper into enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning? Yeah. And maybe just put some contour on each of those. We'll go back to unhappiness and suffering and how it relates to all three. >> For sure. So, so enjoyment um is very much related to pleasure. But pleasure is fundamentally a limbic phenomenon. I mean just if you if you touch in experiments you've done these you've seen these experiments forever the the vententral stratum or the vententral tegmental area you can get this inc you can get the stimulation of these parts of the brain that will give you this sense of a booleiance this sense of you know immediate joy from anything from your girlfriend saying I love you or a big bump of cocaine not that you would because the brain is so unbelievably thrifty right that's not part of happiness that's a phenomenon from sort of the place to scene brain from something the middle place to scene what 250,000 years ago >> saying that's rewards you go get more of that is kind of what it comes down to >> you don't want to have that as your goal in life I mean like the hippies used to say if it feels good do it my dad said that's the end of America he was kind of right >> I think your dad and my dad either were friends I don't think we have the same dad but um [laughter] >> separated from >> yeah my dad and no disrespect to the hippies Uh but my dad had very clear thoughts about how the children of >> people with that mindset were um at a disadvantage because of that message specifically. >> What will happen of course very quickly is that your pleasures which are fundamentally animal I mean your your your your dog your beautiful new dog friendly new dog that I just met. He has a lyic system not that different than yours and he feels emotions that are not that different than yours. Right? I mean this he has amygdala amygdala you know he has a dorsal anterior singulate cortex he has a vententral straight I mean he's got all these different parts and just kind of like we do but he's not human >> because he's managed largely by these emotions and we have this choice we have this incredible prefrontal cortex this this human cortex that's enormous your dogs is wafer thin ours is like 30% of the weight of our brain and what that supercomput allows us to do is to choose between animal impulses and moral aspirations. We get to make that choice. That's a conscious executive choice. When we convert pleasure into enjoyment, it's because it takes on moral aspiration to it. We take our pleasures and we add people and memory, thereby kind of delivering them to an an executive experience that we're managing, that we we understand, that we're conscious of, that we can remember, and that's fundamentally social. It's quintessentially human. As a matter of fact, that's what it's all about. So I, you know, I talk to my students and >> who are graduate students or 28 years old on average and my and my kids who are 28, 26, and 23. >> You know, what does this mean? And and for most people, what it means is if there's something that makes you feel good, cuz we all have our thing, whether it's highly glycemic carbohydrates or any kind of addictive behavior. And in point of fact, it can be dependenceprovoking, which many things can. and they when they when they're when they when they wire into the dopamine system. You've talked about this ad at Nauseium so many times. I've heard you talk about this. If you're doing it alone, you're probably doing it wrong. Probably it's uh it's probably more about pleasure and less [clears throat] about enjoyment. It's not a perfect rule. I like to walk in the woods by myself and say my prayers, but those things aren't addictive. >> And so that that's how to how to how to think about it. You need to enjoy your life. And that means there there are things that give you pleasure at a at a metaphysical or physical level, but they also have people in memory and you're managing them and they're not managing you. So that's kind of the in a nutshell how I think about enjoyment. Now many people are bad at that, especially stvers. Who who listens to your podcast? People who are serious about their lives. There's nobody who's like, "Ah, whatever. Who's going to listen to your podcast? >> We're not a whatever podcast. >> You're a Strivever podcast. >> We should do a title card sometime. How to whatever." >> Yeah. I know it won't go very well April Fool's episode. >> I know, right? This is not one of those podcasts. >> You had guys like me on, right? >> And and what strivvers, one of the things they often struggle with if they're very very very uh uh um competitive, if they're ambitious, if they're successful, is that they want to be special more than they want to be happy. And so they want to put points on the board. And if it's not putting points on the board, they're not going to do it. And these are the people that I have to work with to be to to work on the macronutrient enjoyment. Is there fear that were they to >> enjoy life more, be happier, I'm probably using these terms incorrectly, that somehow they would lose their drive because as you were describing enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning and by the way, I love this >> uh description of enjoyment as you know, we we have animal impulses and then but then there's this other end of the spectrum which are moral aspirations. Wouldn't at least some component of a great life be to marry those two things so that your pursuit of of these animal impulses actually raised you up morally? I mean that's the ultimate I mean we have so many examples now in the media of of uh prominent politicians in particular with all the elections going on where their careers [clears throat] are tanked. I do believe they might have been trying to be good people on average, but they they temptation ruined that career anyway. Totally. Totally. And so it's clear it exists in them and and in many in everyone, right? But the fact that that can happen to >> it's almost feels like a a misuse of the animal impulse. >> Yeah. >> Is there a a way to marry uh animal impulse to moral aspiration in a way that's seamless or does it always work? >> No. No. You you have just defined enjoyment. Proper enjoyment is one where you are you're doing what you what you think is prudent and natural and good to do. It's something that you want to see yourself doing and at the same time is pleasurable. >> You know, that's why that the best moments over the course of my 35 year marriage are highly pleasurable and extremely enjoyable. M and it's the kind of thing where I could get, you know, found out by the press that I'm having another beautiful night with Esther. [laughter] You know, that's good is what it comes down to. And and the truth is we all struggle with these things because we are biological creatures. You know, I'm fundamentally a a behavioral scientist, but psychology is biology. One of the things I've had to retrain in so many of these areas, especially over the past 10 years, is because the biology has become so salient in our field. And one of the things that you find is that the the trouble that people actually have is when animal impulse and moral aspiration go in different directions. And one of the great strategies for life is how to point them in the same direction. >> How to and and sometimes you have to choose. >> Sometimes you have to choose and and people feel like it's I should you know if it feels good it must be good for me. But that's have the and so I'm going to do it. That's having the same life goals as prozzoa or something you know. >> Or if it feels bad it must be bad for me. And there probably a lot of things that people should could benefit from doing that are going to feel quote unquote painful in the process. >> Now we're in the gym. I'm I'm a gym rat. So are you. >> Do you do you like training? I like training. I >> I really do like training. But it's a funny thing because when leg day I still want to throw up. I've been in the gym almost every day for 30 years. >> Wow. >> And and you're in great shape, by the way. It's obvious to anyone watching, but you know what? I feel good. >> Is it okay to share? You're 62. >> 62 years old. Yeah. years old. Yeah. And and it's and you know, I've got genetics that keep me really lean. So, it's not like it's any any flex that I can stay at, you know, 10% body fat or something like that. That's not that's just that's just nature. But the truth is I I I really I recognize that that I I need to keep the machine in good shape because the brain is part of the machine. And as we both know, hard exercise, picking up heavy things and and and running around is fundamental to affect management and also to the maintenance of the overall functioning of how the machine works. I don't want to fall prey to, you know, type three diabetes, which is what we're calling Alzheimer's these days. I don't want metabolic disorders that are that are avoidable. So, I actually I do that. Now, leg day sucks, man. I mean, I've been doing leg day every fourth day for four for 30 years, and I still don't like it. I would still skip leg day. Every day would be chest day because everybody likes chest day, right? Because it feels better. But the truth is that I do it because I actually know how the muscle protein synthesis works. I know that for hormone balance, leg day is the most important day for these really large muscle groups. And and and what am I doing? I'm making the decision to do something that foregoes my my comfort, my pleasure, even a moment of my happiness for the moral aspiration that I actually have. And and that leads to this important conclusion from the research in this area, which is that mother nature doesn't care if you're happy. This is it's you know, we all think it's like if I'm not happy, then something's not right. No, no, it might very well be not right. You know, there there all kinds of suffering that you actually need to grow a as a person. You need negative emotions because negative emotions are an alarm system that show that your reptilian brain has has has registered signals sending these signals to your lyic system and and and and setting off alarms in, you know, from sadness and anger and disgust and fear. >> That's unpleasant, but that doesn't mean anything's wrong. It means everything's right. How you react to it can be how you want to in so doing have a better having a better life notwithstanding the fact that it doesn't feel good. And that's a life of discipline. That's a life of of the kind of behavior that you actually want. That's worth moral aspiration. >> I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place. Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware. Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PASES or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products. 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Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA, FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses. Again, that's helixleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off. I've got this statement that um you just mentioned like ringing in my ears in in the best way, which is that you're saying uh this moral aspiration piece is uh has a lot to do with or reflects doing uh what you want to see yourself doing. I really like that because I think for many people um they want to see themselves doing things that others would approve of, right? >> And from a young age we're told what we should do and why, >> right? You need to like get dressed up for this event or you need to, you know, sit up certain way, eat a certain way, be polite and these things which are all important parts of our training, right, as humans, >> right? But there's something really special that happens when we as you pointed out when we see ourselves doing something and it feels good and we it's a positive self-reflection of the non-egotistical kind. >> Right. And I don't think we >> talk enough about this because there's so much out there now about how social media is all about comparisons. So people are showing other people here's what I'm doing. But there's a different version of that where somebody does something that they're proud of and puts it to the internet and they're seeing themselves do something that they're proud of and they get the feedback and >> you know provided that their ego is in check and they don't let the positive comments go to their head or set them up for disappointment when they don't get as many of them the next time. All things that are wired into those reinforcement circuits. >> I think that's great. They're seeing themselves >> exercising. Oh, by the way, it could be painting. It could be time with family. It could be being in volunteer and service. And we tend to look at that stuff and say, "Oh, you know, they're just doing the display." So my >> question is to really get the ideal match between this uh animal impulse and and moral aspirations piece that we see ourselves and experience ourselves doing what we want to see ourselves doing and that we not share it because I'm open to the idea that the sharing diminishes it somehow. >> It can. [clears throat] Yeah, >> it can. But fundamentally, I think it's actually quite important that you declare what your moral aspirations are. And part of the reason is because this gives you a commitment bias. So there's a lot of behavioral science about that. A lot of psychology that actually talks about commitments bias when you say, "Here's the thing that I'm actually going to do. I'm going to finish my PhD." Right? >> This is a big part of weddings. I attended a lot of weddings. And it's kind of an amazing thing, this wedding ceremony. >> Yeah. Makes you path dependent toward your own aspirations. people stand up and give a bunch of really amazing promises in front of all their friends and then they get a bunch of gifts and that there I'm not cynical about this at all like from a reward pathway perspective it's like you're rewarding the promises that they're making in addition to the union that they're in right then a lot of the reward is like you're giving them things for their life going forward sadly I have a number of friends who've been divorced and they depending on how long ago the wedding was >> they often feel quite sheepish about all the gifts like what they got all these gifts for the promises they made. Now they've changed their mind, >> right? >> Some cases broken those promises, but they've changed their mind, right? It's not till death do us part. It's now until it got inconvenient enough that we're going to part ways. And >> it's an incredible still occurring kind of ancient display of promising publicly, I'm not going to quit. >> Yeah. No, totally. This is this is my person through thick and thin, through sickness and in health and all the things that you actually talk about. You're actually talking in the in the wedding promises. You're saying it's going to suck sometimes. >> That's what you're saying. I mean, it's like richer and poorer and we're going to stick this thing out despite the fact that we're we're stating right up front that there's going to be times of poverty, there's going to be times of sickness, there's going to be there's going to be trouble ahead. And that's basically saying that happiness has unhappiness in it. I'm defining happiness. How am I defining happiness? That I'm going to get 80, 90 years and as I take my dying breath, I'm going to be looking. I'm like donote and this is my dulin. And I'm going to be I'm going to be looking into her eyes as I as I recite the holy scriptures and take my dying breath. That's basically what you're saying. And you're defining that as your bliss. I mean, if it weren't your bliss, you'd be like, "Why are you doing it? I want it." Because that's a good life. That's what you're stating. and you're and and you're laying out what actually happiness looks for and you're saying it's going to be full of unhappiness. That's what you're saying and that's the thing for people to understand that that's what it comes down to when you are laying out publicly your moral commitments when you're actually saying this. What you're saying is you're recognizing that happiness and unhappiness are intertwined and you want the full you're basically saying bring it on. >> It's like courage. Mhm. >> It's a declaration of of your independence from the world and your dependence on each other, which is a beautiful thing. It's what you do when you're publicly baptized as an adult. Anytime that you're taken into a new religion, there's always these commitments about these moral aspirations that you're making. Recognizing, yeah, sometimes this is going to go contrary to my animal impulses. Absolutely. And you know, this is one of the things that I love about sort of the modern internet culture. There's a lot to regret. There's a lot that you and I look at like, oh man, you know, but the other thing I really really like is it's facilitated this wholesale movement of aspiration for excellence. >> A lot of people they want to be excellent, >> you know, it's like I so this isn't just the heroin podcast is not just entertainment, high class entertainment. People want an edge. They want to know, you know, why why are they so attracted to the protocols? Protocols toward what? Toward being better. They want to be more successful. They want to be better liked. They want things to go better for them. That's a that's a human drive for excellence. And when people can finally make peace with the fact that your animal impulses will not gen will not always and frequently not lead you to excellence, then you can finally be free. Do you think that a lot of the friction out there um politically uh socially is basically about drawing the line between what is animal impulse and what is moral aspiration? >> I mean I don't want to take us too far down. >> Tell me more. What do you mean? >> I mean some of the animal impulses are obvious, right? Um, and they're all for the neurobiologists, we would say they're very like limbic, hypothalamic, right? >> But, you know, some people would say, okay, like here's the quote unquote traditional model of marriage and um and morality. >> Yeah. >> And some people would say actually we want to kind of bend that a certain way where um people could have quote unquote unconventional relationships or unconventional families or I mean I think everyone would agree that lie lying, cheating, and stealing is bad. Right. >> Right. But there's a an attempt, I think, to draw a kind of jagged line between moral and immoral that, you know, certain things that are not of biblical traditional morality are okay because as long as they're done consensually and in the and in the name of love. >> Right. >> Right. And we're not talking about breaking laws here, although some people really push this to the extreme, but that's not what I'm talking about. That's that's >> and I'm staying off specific issues not not to be like politically careful here but just because I feel like a lot of it is like where are we going to draw the line between limbic and higher order in fact it gets it actually gets inverted where people will say no that the more evolved way of thinking is past all that where you can really get beyond this this this very uh you know black and white morality and really say no there's all sorts of versions of of what uh love, family, marriage, commitment, um child rearing could look like. >> Conscious pilot. What is truth? >> Right. >> Right. It's very postmodern. >> Yeah, it is very postmodern. But I think that I mean I feel like >> this is that like people are pulling back and forth on this line just like in science people are trying to say the scientists and doctors that are all you know uh traditional scientists and and physicians they have the knowledge and then the general components of the general public are saying actually during the pandemic you lied you know like a teenager following their and like you need to admit you lied and then they're like I didn't lie you know you know and so there's just trying to pull back we have the torture of truth no we have the torture of truth and of course >> there are elements of truth on But with this in this case it's sort of >> I think at the extremes we all understand murder is bad right lying cheating stealing bad right but then what constitutes a a moral aspiration >> right >> to one camp is actually a moral insult >> right >> and vice versa >> so John height you've had him on the show right yes John height's great and John I height and I go way back we go back to the early part of the 21st century so and John heighten are just the same age and and we've had these sort of parallel careers writing about about science of human happiness. The guy's a visionary. He's probably the greatest social scientist of our generation. >> Wow. >> He's that great. I mean, it's he's unbelievable. He wrote book a book about moral foundations. And he talked about the fact that there are two moral foundations that everybody has in common, and that's care and fairness. Care for others and fairness. Now, we define those things differently. I mean, what does care mean? Does the care mean giving everybody, you know, taking care of them at the base level or does it mean everybody gets an apartment and free groceries? I mean, you figure out what that means. >> And that uh that's a legitimate argument about, you know, what it means. Fairness is really really different, especially between political polls where one side is about redistributive fairness and the other side is about meritocratic fairness. You know, what fairness actually means, but everybody wants a fair and caring society and you believe that you should be fair as a parent. You should care for your kids. Then what he shows empirically with his work which no doubt has a huge neurobiological basis and I'm sure has a huge genetic basis as well because these personality characteristics generally do are usually between in the in the identical twin studies it's usually 40 to 80% genetic all the aspects of personality which is super interesting in and of it in of itself is that there's three elements of morality that are very different between the political polls. They are loyalty, purity and authority. And so loyalty is like flag burning is bad, right? You know, I come from a very progre mostly progressive family, politically progressive family. And and if I asked somebody, you know, from my family of origin, what do you think about flag burning? They'd be like inadvisable, right? As opposed to morally evil, right? Soft answer. >> Yeah. When it comes, right? And the second is is is loyalty, you know, loyalty to tribe. And what you find is that people who are more on the politically conservative side, they have a different sense of loyalty. Loyalty towards sports teams. So you find that when you in these interesting studies that you go into a political conservatives office and you'll find like a a sports poster where for political liberals office, you're very very much less likely to find this is what you find. And then of course this what what it where it really has teeth is toward you know national identity. you know, where you're loyal toward national my it's like my country right or wrong which is one of the reasons you find such a strong political prepoundonderance of one side in the military forces in the American military as opposed to the other not to say that one side's right or wrong but that's just you know how it comes down height would say that's that's a difference in moral foundations and the last that you were really touching on here is purity is moral purity and the moral purity is about in for example in sexual matters is very very profound, you know, and so, you know, there's a there's a you know, I've seen a bumper sticker in San Francisco that says, "Your body may be a temple, but mine is an amusement park, right? It's funny in its way, right?" But what that is basically saying, >> it's very it's very what I would call because I'm from the Bay Area, sort of uh old older San Francisco like circa '7s to now. Now there's a there's a kind of a growing conservative movement somewhat tucked into the tech community although you find a mix of both. >> You find a mix of both too but it's kind of a libertine thing >> where libertarianism and libertinism diverge which is a really interesting boundary too is what you find but that actually describes those differences are you know so so you know each side will say the other side is immoral. No they're differently moral and you decide you know which you think is right. And if you tell me in a structured survey what you think is right on those particular issues, I have a very high degree of certitude in in guessing how you vote, >> actually. Now, some people are in these weird things. You can be in kind of a you can be a political conservative, but a cultural liberal, >> right? Those aren't very many people, but you do find them. They tend to be the political libertarians. As a matter of fact, >> it's fascinating because ultimately here we're talking about um drawing boundaries between different brain areas. At least that's what the neurobiologist in me thinks. But um >> I mean obviously >> politics, laws and behavior matters a lot. >> It really matters because ultimately people can say all sorts of things about what they believe, what they want to be, but >> we are ultimately judged on what we do. >> And I think we probably judge ourselves on the basis of what we do or ideally we would we would look at that. Let's talk a little bit about >> we've gone through one macronutrient, >> right? One macronutrient. What exercises do you suggest to um students to start to explore their own relationship between animal impulse and moral aspiration? >> Yeah. So, one of the things that I talk about is is how they understand leisure. >> So, leisure is what you do and they're not compensating you for in the time that's actually free. How you understand leisure. M so and and the greatest writer about this is Yseph Peeper the the mid 20th century German philosopher his most important book was leisure the basis of culture that's his most inflecting it's actually a long essay >> it's very very beautiful he says I can tell you everything you need to know about a culture by how they actually use leisure >> interesting >> he doesn't want to know what you do for money he wants to know how you use your time when nobody's paying you that's because he says that's what reflects who you actually That's why I never liked the Oh, you can tell by the books on somebody's shelf cuz books on somebody's shelf doesn't mean they actually read those books first. >> They own those books, >> right? Exactly. Many people own my books who haven't read them. >> Well, I've spent some time with it. I still need to pour through it uh again, but uh >> can't wait to wait to read Protocols, by the way. >> It's Oh, thanks. If nothing else, Protocols Will Cure Insomnia. The thing is almost 600 pages long. Thank you. Um I Your book's awesome and I I I spent some time with it. I want to spend more time with it. Um, in part because it marries theory with practical steps and prompts, not AI prompts, but the kind of prompts to really give oneself. So, this thing about leisure is fascinating. >> Yeah, leisure is really interesting. It's like that that tells you what you need to know about a culture, but also about a person in a way. And so, if you find somebody who's using their leisure time to meet animal appetites, that's one thing. if they're actually using it to for for personal betterment for personal betterment not career betterment not for the compensation actually comes from the worldly rewards there's four worldly rewards money power pleasure and honor and if you're doing something such that it doesn't reward you in one of those areas that actually comes from Aristotle and Aquinus etc then you're actually doing what he would call proper leisure you're doing proper leisure toward you know moral aspiration which is ultimately the most rewarding thing That's ultimately what will take you from the world of pleasure into the world of enjoyment and give you greater happiness. That's the theory and it's and it's it's actually been verified a lot in a lot of these ideas the best questions they come from the philosophers and then and then the structural mechanisms come from neuroscience and then the testing of these ideas comes from the behavioral sciences right the the experiments etc. Then of course applying them to your life is a different kettle of fish. And so what he says is that there's kind of three areas that make proper leisure and ultimate enjoyment. You want me to tell you the >> please. Okay. >> Number one is deepening relationships on purpose, man. I mean on purpose. And so leisure is this weekend I'm envisioning myself not touching my phone while I'm with my wife, right? Deepening my relationship, being fully present for my wife. and and I'm going to go someplace not because I want to chill on the beach, but because I want to be on the beach with the love of my life. So, deepening relationships on purpose with, you know, a real focus on that. The second is learning something you don't need to learn. And the third is actually developing yourself metaphysically. Is your spiritual, your religious life, or your philosophical life is is to transcend what's going on here for for no other reason than the fact that you seek transcendence. Those are the three areas of proper leisure. And that's how he would say, "I know that you're going from pleasure to enjoyment." That's how I know by based on what you're doing, even though you don't have to. >> I love this. I'll tell you several of the reasons why I love it. One is um people from time to time will say, "What do you do for fun?" >> I know. >> It's a very difficult question for me to answer because people >> But your work is fun, by the way. >> My work is so much fun. Like I'm reading this book about sunlight and how the dermatology world is revising their understanding about sun and skin cancer and um and I'm loving that. I love my I mean I could I could list it off but I I just say those things to just get people to think about what what they enjoy doing. >> But the word that you know keeps coming up in my mind because I have a hard time with the fun thing because yeah I do other things that are purely recreational is >> this word enrichment. I mean it sounds kind of you know uh you know like somebody's trying to be an academic when they say like like what do you do for enrichment? It doesn't it's not it's not as natural a question these days as like what do you do for fun it's like what do you do for your own enrichment it it it reshapes the question a little bit because the implication is it's not just about immediate pleasure >> which fun kind of >> kind of falls into the group of pleasure >> personal excellence. >> Yeah. you come out of you come out of it better, >> right? >> Not just for having exper experienced the the whatever it was the activity was, but like there's something carried forward into other things that you do and in a good way. And so the word enrichment, you know, feels good. It's the reason why even though I was in the sciences as an undergraduate, I you know, decided to take a course in Greek mythology and like loved it. Loved loved loved it. >> Was leisure >> and and it turns out it was neuroscience too, right? [laughter] You know, years later, like we talk about, you know, the myth of the cyclops is all about anger and it has everything to do with the lack of depth perception that when you have one eye versus two eyes. It turns out like the Greeks like really understood stereopsis and depth perception there. I couldn't help myself. In any case, >> that's interesting. >> So, like this notion of enrichment and and I love that in the example you gave of going to the beach uh with a friend or with a spouse or someone else you care about. It's not about your own experience of it. You said because not just because you want to be there, but because you're actually there. That's a that's a physical grounds for creating something else. So, it's not really about the beach. It's about what you leave the beach with. That's right. And it's not just memories of the beach. You actually both change as a consequence of being there. Maybe in small ways, maybe in big ways, >> but you you've enriched the relationship. And so, the beach becomes incidental. When people talk about wanting to go out drinking, what I want to know is is it about the drinking or is it the people you're drinking with? That's what it comes down to. Now, I I strongly recommend that people reconsider that decision. I mean, I've heard you two drinks a week is the safe level. I've got it, Andrew. I've got it. >> Yeah. More than that, it's probably not a good idea for most people. >> I'm at zero. You know, I'm I'm a non-drinker. Um because it's the right it's the right cadence for my life. But, you know, people who do use alcohol responsibly, I'm not I wish I were a person who could use alcohol responsibly. I'm not right. So, so I don't and I don't use it at all. But, you know, when people say I'm going to go out drinking, I mean, I I I don't know if that's pleasure or enjoyment. I don't know if that's animal impulse or moral aspiration. I need more information. I need to know the reason for that. When people are talking about getting a beach house, I'm going to get a beach house. I don't know whether or not that's animal impulse to towards social comparison toward actually a a scoreboard effect so I can actually feel like I mean something. That's all animal impulse. All it is that's just like your trogodite brain actually saying you're not >> you're not good enough unless you have a beach house like old Bill over there at the office, right? But on the other hand, if you tell me it's like I I got to create bait so that my kids and grandkids are here a lot. Okay, now I'm listening. Now I'm actually paying attention. And so a lot of things that people will say, I I need a little bit more information such that I can categorize it in the right way. Whether or not we're on the right side, we're on the animal impulse side or the moral aspiration side, whether we're on the pleasure side or the enjoyment side, whether it's actually going to bring happiness. I'm pausing um because I I have so many questions about this, but I want to make sure we touch on the other macronutrients because otherwise I I'm going to um >> I'm going to encourage you to give a a tutorial on how to really uh maximize every single choice in not just my life, listeners, >> enjoyment protocols. We should have leisure protocols. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. you know the we all know that like one of the major pillars is social connection and relationships but >> the idea that leisure is is part of that. >> Yeah. >> Uh as a substrate for enriching those is obvious once we hear it >> but it reframes everything. if um exercising with somebody, you know, turns out to be a way you deepen the relationship, which actually has been my experience with a lot of male friends, frankly. Like, >> yeah, totally. >> One of the best ways to get to know somebody in my experience is to have an intellectual conversation with them, like really deep dive with them or to go do something difficult. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Rob, our produ producer and close close friend, he's sitting to my left right now. I mean, one of the first things we ever did was like go for a run where he kicked my butt. >> And by the way, a Vanderbilt graduate. Very pleased. places that [snorts] >> Yeah. And um I don't recommend people box, but years ago I boxed and I'd spar on Wednesday nights. Don't recommend it. Yes, I wore headgear. Yes, I probably took some damage. I don't recommend it. Um but you feel so close to people that you've actually tried to hurt and they tried to hurt you, but with rules >> in it's a it's an amazing it's very primitive and yet you there's a bond there that is obviously nonverbal. It's a lifelong bond. you see that person the next time and it's a like >> especially if they played fair and they hurt you. Yeah. You're like, >> "Yeah, like we know one another. I've seen you, you know, there's a respect level." I'm not suggesting people do this, but >> you added people in memory to a strong experience, thus rendering it enjoyable and being part of happiness. Yeah. In in point of fact, it wasn't strictly >> pleasurable, but that wasn't exactly the point. >> No. >> Yeah. >> No. The point was to to suffer together in some way. There's a great book by a guy named Sam Sheridan uh called A Fighter's Heart. He's actually a Harvard grad. >> Yeah. >> I think he was an art major there. His dad was a Navy Seals. Very interesting guy. And he has this joke that you know uh >> you know that sparring is like a >> it's like a one night stand or something. You you've like done something very intimate with someone you barely know. And so it has both a feeling of connection but it's also the illusion of connection. >> So he hits it better than I did. Don't run around and start sparring with your friends. Well, the military why it has it creates such, you know, bonds for life. I mean, my son's my son is a sniper, scout sniper in the US Marine Corps, and these are friends for life. I mean, these are guys who would literally give their lives for each other, who looked out for each other in very, very dangerous situations. And they were suffering together. Now, the word compassion in Latin means to suffer together. >> That's what it means to be compassionate with somebody to to suffer alongside that person. That's what it comes from. Um and it's you know it has this the passion of Christ in the Christian religion is all about the suffering of Christ. That's what it comes and and for to have compassion towards somebody to suffer with that person through that and when you even induce that suffering as dumb as it is beating each other up you know doing getting into the octagon and you know that that is what you're doing is this is this is the experience of compassion which gets us to a a primordial need to move beyond the animal impulse into the moral space that actually makes us quintessentially human that makes us fundamentally different than all the other beings that makes us the dominant species. By the way, it also renders us the most miserable of all these species as well, which is so interesting. >> There's some uh dark and uh terrible examples of this. And sometimes people will call it trauma bonding, like the sort of Siden Nancy story, like to they like kill them kill each other at the Chelsea Hotel in like a drug induced rage or but then like if you watch um that great movie with Phoenix and Reese Witherspoon, right? walk the line like their relationship between Johnny Cash and and uh >> June Carter, right, was um Jun Carter Cash, I think was eventually her her married name was it was a contentious one. It was like that it was the it was the feistiness. It was the fighting like they were forged in this challenge. She was divorced at a time when divorce wasn't >> um was really frowned upon and and she was religious and so there was there was just a lot of contention and then then there's this peace that they achieve in being together. But you always sense that it's like that that there's this >> recognition that that there's fight in them and they've been through it. >> And that's part of like we tend to we used to kind of hold up relationships like that. Now we like to see everything look perfectly >> smooth, >> right? But this gets back to like the marriage vows and this gets back to relationships of all kinds. It's the suffering. >> The suffering suffer with I'm going to suffer with my wife until I take my dying breath. And it's like because and we have a relationship. >> She's going to suffer with you. My god, you know the width is there. The both of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. To be clear. Yeah. >> No, for sure. I mean, it's no walk in the park being married to me. That's for sure. I mean, it's a pain for sure. But she will. I mean, this is like the bond that we've actually taken for life. And that and and central to the the and we have great enjoyment. It's fantastic. But that enjoyment is everything to do with the fact that it's pleasurable. It's interesting. It's it's fascinating. It's funny. And it's also hard and it's also there's a lot of suffering and there's a lot of it's dagger strong. I mean my wife is Spanish so you have to understand that there's a high level of complexity and suffering you know there >> and words per word density per moment. >> Yeah. Exactly. Right. And we have a 50/50 Spanish and English marriage which means that we can you know we can suffer in you know two languages is what it comes down to. But the truth is you know that's what that's what people need to expect. You know that's what people need to expect that it's like okay let's suffer together baby. Come on honey. Let's just let's just bring it on. And that's a beautiful thing. >> Mhm. >> That's really what it means. >> And people talk so much about peace and ease as the goal. >> Yeah. >> I'm not I'm hearing some of that, but I'm hearing a bunch of other things too here. >> I get it. And and particularly true that that men, they want peace at home. They do want peace at home. And and and I see that, by the way, women want peace at home, too. But you're not going to get peace all the time. You don't want peace all the time. You want a full life, fully lived. You want to be It's like the to be fully alive. What does that mean? That means the whole range of your emotions. You're using all the parts of your lyic system. We're wonderfully made, Andrew. And it's just like I I want the dorsal anterior singulate cortex to give me this sense of suffering and grief when I'm feeling social exclusion or the sense of loss. You know, I want the insula to be highly active when I have this sense of disgust or whatever it happens to be or the amygdala to be active with fear and anger, etc. I want that. I want my brain to work the way it's actually supposed to. I mean, I want to suffer and I'm going to if I'm actually being fully alive and and if I'm taking the chances and if I'm doing the things that I actually need to do because that is ingrained in the full experience of what human happiness is properly understood. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1. AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro. And right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription. AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients: creatine monohydrate, calcium HMBB, and zinc carnosine. 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So we have the second chapter in the book that maybe we write together. Although you're the real writer. I confess I I I yet to decide I'm a writer which you're good at when you do, man. >> Oh, thanks man. [laughter] Appreciate it. One will be one chapter will be on leisure. >> Yeah. >> You've told us that how one spends their leisure time is a is a critical window into self and um and the other uh will be to how to suffer more. >> Yeah. >> In in pursuit of moral aspiration >> but also how to experience pleasure in pursuit of moral aspiration. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So we've gotten through enjoyment. >> Yeah. Let's let's talk about uh satisfaction >> because [clears throat] because it sounds similar but it sounds like deeper more pervasive more like an I don't define a satisfaction. >> Yeah. So I mean again and the the definition everything is in the definitions and and one of the problems with happiness is that everybody can they define it in different ways and etc. So I I try to stay out of the linguistic wars >> and >> it's like [clears throat] consciousness. Yeah. >> No neuroscientist really wants to talk about consciousness anymore because it's like it's so circular. >> It for sure. Yeah. >> Absolutely. It's being awareness and being aware of the fact that you're aware because you're aware or something. I what you know [laughter] >> many billions of dollars and euros in particular. That's a joke aimed at one Swiss scientist in particular. >> You've read Michael Poland's new book. >> I haven't read the new books, but I I think the world of him. >> He's fantastic. And the new book is actually the book to read for people who are not either, you know, philosophers or neuroscientists or or even psychologists for that matter on a world awaits is what it's called. I really I I've never met him, but I love the book. I think it's absolutely fantastic. And at the end of the book, you know a lot more and you still don't understand what consciousness is. You don't understand what it is. It's it's a lot of things. It's many things. It's sentience and it's feelings and it's awareness of others and it's awareness of yourself and we don't know where it is in the brain and oh my goodness but the truth is that that's one of the problems in in the field that I have too which is the the >> the definition of terms and satisfaction is one of these things satisfaction as I define it as many people define it is the joy that you get from an accomplishment after struggle that satisfaction so the satisfaction that you got from your PhD was proportionate to the suffering that actually went into getting your PhD and mine too, right? And they were like, "Oh man, I'm not doing that again." But it was so awesome. And you know, I think about, you know, >> but it was so awesome. Those those are the key words. >> I know. And it's like I talked to, you know, my kids my kids in the military there. I mean, being a Marine is no, you're not screwing around. >> And you know, I saw what my kids went through and you know, the infantry training battalion and the scout sniper indoctrination. And my daughter is, you know, and she's an officer. She actually had got her first salute from her brother. He's 6'5 and she's 4'11. It was awesome. You know, actually, your older brother has to salute you. It's great. So cool. >> Yeah, it's great. But, you know, it's it's people talk when I say, you know, tell me the story of your success. >> I mean, the people make jokes about it. You remember David Ko, one of the Koch brothers, you know, of of KO Industries in Witchah, Kansas. And he was a very, very funny guy. And he used to say, people say, "How did you get so rich?" And I say, "Well, it started when I was 12 years old and I found an apple and I was shining it up and I had paid a nickel for it and somebody offered me a dime and I said, "Oh, it's a 100% profit margin." So, I went back and bought two apples and I doubled my money. And I started doing this every day and every week, doubling my money and doubling my money. And you can do the math week after week and year after year. And finally, my father died, left me $100 million. [laughter] >> That's good. And the reason that that's funny is because that flicks the parhipple gyrus and it makes you feel like that surprise like in every joke, right? But the reason it's funny is because real satisfaction from your accomplishments comes from the struggle, not from the accolades. That's what it really comes to because you earned it. And human beings are made to earn their success. This is the reason that they'll convince themselves that when somebody's giving them absolute utter large that they actually earned it in some way. If you want to get have your career destroyed as a politician, go to a bunch of senior citizens and tell them you're getting a lot back more back from social security than you ever paid in. Your career is over because you basically just, you know, flicked their parippocample gyrus in a very unpleasant way. You kicked it, right? >> So cool. >> And they don't like it. and and and so so the truth of the matter is that that he was saying that because the the answer that people are expecting is I suffered and I had three bankruptcies and you know I almost lost my marriage and I had to raid my kids' college fund and I was afraid you know like Bernie Marcus talks about the Home Depot and they were down their last dollar and it was and it was a it was grim is how he talked about it and and so that's really really important and that's one of the reasons that satisfaction which is so important you know we got to make progress why arrival leads to frustration but but progress toward goals is what is how we're wired purpose in life comes from goals of direction and progress called toward purpose and goals that's what purpose where our purpose in life actually comes from and and so the result of it is that we need to to have this sense that we're we're sacrificing for something that we're doing something that that that's bigger than who we are and we're willing to give something up. That's really one of the great secrets. It's one of the reasons also that when people hit their goals, they get so depressed is because there's no more progress. You know, it's why Olympic athletes are so likely to fall into a clinical depression after they win their their, you know, their gold medal. And why people are so when they win a billion dollars, they're like, I guess I need another billion. I guess I need, you know, because I don't I'm not feeling it, man. Because we're we're actually made for this progress. But the progress entails the struggle. We we judge your students, my students. There's no satisfaction that comes if they cheat on an exam. But if they work hard and get an A, that's very very satisfying. And you teach your kids this. Don't eat before dinner. It's not because of nutrition. It's because you want their synaptically plastic little brains to register the fact that that if they come to dinner hungry, dinner's better. >> Definitely. >> And you you you tell Junior, you know, don't eat before dinner because it's unhealthy. But if you were being honest, you'd say, I want you to suffer. That's why you can't have a snack. >> A few years ago, I was out a lot on the internet saying, you know, dopamine that comes without effort before it is is very pernicious. And um >> so true. >> I stand behind that. But some people like took the interpretation too far. It in part in an attempt to malign me, which is fine. Like, you know, I'm out there, you know. Yeah, sure. That that comes with the territory. But they it sort of implied I didn't have the language for it, but now I do, thanks to you. It's sort of implied that I don't believe in leisure, >> right? I don't want to return us to the first macronutrient um in a way that distracts us, but I think this is appropriate now. So, of course, leisure is great, but I would say leisure is way better when you've been working hard. And and so if you've been working hard towards something that has its own intrinsic reward, you the work itself can become intrinsically rewarding or not. You know, there are a lot of things I did in graduate school that absolutely loved the process. And there were some of them that like >> the only word for it is it sucked. >> It just it sucked. >> Allnighters like two days recording experiments and like just like breathing all that is in the room and it was just was like it sucked. But it and it was awesome. But there are forms of leisure. Like on those Fridays when we finished those experiments, I would drive out to this um this this orchard outside of Davis where I did graduate school to Winters and I would just there would be four phones. I would just listen to music in my car >> and I just felt like I felt like I'd been transported in time. That's right. >> And I felt connected to all the people who had worked a hard week and then were just listening to music in their car. And then eventually my girlfriend and I would drive out there and now I could share that experience with her and she was a scientist and worked really really hard too. Um arguably even harder than I was because the experiment she was doing took took a yet another level of of um persistence that really remarkable. So it's not that um saying that effort has to be there before dopamine is like means you're a onetrack like self-optimization junkie, >> right? It's just an important pie slice in in being a like a good human being in my opinion. So like so I kind of bristle at the idea that a concept like that could be construed as as um anti-pleasure but in a sense it's really like there's something about the human mind where we want we hear one piece of this we hear about one pie slice we say oh so that means like >> leisure doesn't exist for this person but but what I love about your work and what you're telling us today is that >> it's really about the complete pie chart >> it's not about working with our with our brains, working with our biology. We are built to earn our rewards. >> We are built to earn our success. >> We have no concept of what anything is worth if we don't earn our success. And and you know the the reason that we want to do things, we think that you know that a a Snickers bar gives you pleasure. No, no, no, no, no. It's actually the neurochemicals that are giving you pleasure that are [clears throat] actually making you feel this pleasure. It just happens to that through the the way that the brain works. Getting your PhD didn't give you pleasure per se. There was nothing about the piece of paper. It was actually the knowledge that you had done this thing. And so, one of the greatest secrets to excellence and success in people's lives is the sense of earning it. And that means making peace with suffering, making peace with with pain, making peace with struggle is what it comes down to. Now, that doesn't mean and and one of the biggest mistakes that strive often make is that it's all struggle. You mean you remember this the the the not discredited but complicated Walter Michelle marshmallow experiments at your fine institution and and and what they you know the followup you know the kids who ate the marshmallow within 5 minutes they were they had no impulse control and they went on to actually get worse grades and worse jobs etc. And the 20% of the kids in the marshmallow experiment who were able to not eat the marshmallow and they got the second marshmallow they did much better in life. And the whole point was the deferral of gratification is a big signal of how well you're actually going to do. One of the biggest problems the strivers have and I'm speaking to all the stvers watching us right now is that they don't know what their marshmallow even is. And so they're just going to wait their whole lives and that's not what you've been saying. That's not what you're talking about to never never never drive out into the out to winters. to never actually listen to the music, to never actually wait for the second marshmallow and enjoy that second marshmallow. That's a mistake, too. That's actually a huge mistake. But the whole point is we're trying to find the golden mean between earning it and not earning it. That doing enough and struggling enough and then actually taking the reward and then starting again. This actually feeds into a lot of experiences that people have. A big part of my work is how to age well, about how to get happier as you age. You >> do tell. >> Yeah. I mean, it's super important. And part of the reason is because, man, I'm no spring chicken. And and and and this is me search, right, for all of us. We're always doing me search instead of research. And so, I want to know how can I be happier at 60 than 50. And now I want to know how I can be happy years down the road at 70 instead of 60. I want to know how to retire. And so, when I'm giving people advice, I'm doing public education about these things because I've been trying to answer these questions for myself. Retirement is a classic case of screwing up the satisfaction part of happiness. It's like, I'm going to work and work and work and work. I'm going to be a miserable sob and then at 65 I'm going to stop completely and just goof around. That's the recipe for misery all the way through because it was no fun. It was all suffering without reward and then it's all reward without suffering. That's neurohysiologically unound, but it's also philosophically unound. it doesn't actually make sense. So, I help people retire constantly, but I also try to help them have the best life as they do to move through the course of their careers, do what they're actually naturally good at that is both hard and rewarding, which changes over the course of your career. There's there's a lot of research on that, but it all gets into how can I maintain satisfaction. The mystery comes when we actually do get the thing that we actually want and then we find that it leaves us cold. >> That seems like a real tyranny. like mother nature had a trick up her sleeve which kind of she did. I mean you actually people if I can get that watch that car that marriage then I'll be happy forever. I mean guys will say to women you know if you marry me you'll make me happy forever. That's not right. You know it doesn't matter what she says when you propose. It doesn't matter what she says on her wedding day. It's what you say to each other over the course of your entire marriage >> that actually will give you net net the best possible life. That's why MC Jagger saying I can't get no satisfaction. He should have saying I can't keep no satisfaction. And that that's a whole different as we say in Seattle a whole another problem mystery. >> Is that a Seattleism? >> I guess so. I don't know. as I did. >> There's so many articles out there and websites and blogs that are like >> the six things that people say on their deathbed. Nobody says, "I wish I worked more." I don't know. My dad, he's in his early 80s and he's still rocking and he loves his work, right? >> And he loves his wife and he loves his kids and he loves his coffee and he loves his meditation. He loves life. >> He's a happy guy. >> And he would say like work has been a he's giving just still working, consuming ideas, giving lectures. He I think he would say he was really glad he worked as much as he did, not more than that. >> But these lists to me are not useful, whether it's about work or whether it's about anything because the lists to me are really about the question when I look back on my life, I want to be able to say blank. Okay, I feel like that analysis peeled back to like when I finish my college degree, I want to be able to say, "All right, that can inform some choices going forward. Make good friends, got enriched myself intellectually, etc., etc. didn't, you know, got healthier as opposed to less healthy." You could do that, but it's not I feel like it's the wrong question. >> Yeah. >> Like it's the wrong thing when I look back on my life. I like how about now and the decisions you can make today, this week, this month, this year. because that's how you end up in a place where >> and let's face it most likely those last moments they could be very peaceful and beautiful but you don't know >> so we we imagine this kind of like before the curtains closed moment that some people get >> but I don't think most people get that I've watched people die it's not it's usually not like that it's I feel like we tend to integrate our levels of satisfaction pleasure lack pain etc on a much shorter time scale so is there a better set of questions questions and answers that we can come up with for living in the now so that we are steering right through the more of the time that we have between now and whenever it is that that curtain closes. >> Yes, for sure. There's a lot actually on this and there's it touches on a couple of different things. Now, to begin with, this really gets into the third macronutrient, which is meaning and and what what are we doing to understand the meaning of our lives? Ultimately that knowledge is the most important macronutrient the most philosophical the most I mean it gets closest to the you know the the problem the hard problem of consciousness to to use Chowmer's his his his formulation on this etc etc but there's a lot that goes into it to begin with it's you know it's like these are David Brooks talks about no no relation friend but no relation he talks about resume versus eulogy virtues and you know you it's true you know it's probably better if you don't imagine people at your funeral saying he had 5 million miles on Delta. I mean, that's probably >> I got some friends who are like really into their points on their cars. It's a video game. It's an adultish. >> Yeah. They're trying to count their scoreboard. And and part of the reason is because that's that's a sense of satisfaction, you know? It's it's they're trying to get that they they want to make progress, progress toward a goal, goals and direction, making progress. We're progressoriented animals, which is why the scoreboard is so important. The trouble is that when once you run up the scoreboard after a certain point, I mean, you die and stay dead and you realize that nobody actually cares. And so if all anybody talks about is this is this score this this trivial scoreboard, which is frequent flyer miles or money in a bank account, right? Or or any of these other worldly things that's a problem. And that really leads to the first criterion for what actually is going to lead to regret and what isn't. And that that's a deep philosophical thing that has has a lot of roots in in in classical philosophy but but also a lot of behavioral science behind it as well. So Aristotle v visav St. Thomas Aquinas in in the 13th century he he asserted that we want to be happy. Okay, fair this is pretty good. Now he his definition of happiness was beatitudo which is the the the luminescence of presence of god right to the relationship with god. Other people define it in different ways who are not traditionally religious but I think everybody would agree yeah we want to be happy. He said that to do that I mean you you have a tendency to to to follow your animal impulses. So far so good. Gets back to an early part of the conversation. And he said, "Your animal impulses tell you one fundamental lie." And that fundamental lie is that these the following four things when they beguile you and you get them that you'll be actually happy and you'll be finally satisfied. You'll finally be there. Those four things are money, resources, power, which is influence over other people, pleasure, which also is comfort or security, right? or honor which means you know for you and me as academics it's like hey that's Andrew Hubman he wrote that paper in the journal of you know seven dimensional you know disappearing manifolds or you know some academic journal nobody's ever heard of but still academic prestige admiration whatever it happens to be those are beguiling idols that if you pursue those things as an end per se there's nothing evil about them they can be used for great good but if you use them as an end per se that's when you'll wind up in trouble. That's the problem that we actually get. So they say, nobody says, I wish I'd worked more. What they should say is nobody says, I wish I'd gotten a little bit more famous. I wish I had had, you know, a million more dollars in my 401k that I have no idea what's going to actually happen to it. That's really what they're saying. And so back up from that and to for us to be happier, we need to assess whether or not we are serving these worldly idols. And that's incredibly good behavioral science because that is an almost perfect uh taxonomy of the things that we that we actually chase. I have a game I play with my students at HBS. They don't know what their idol is. They don't know what it is. And again, I got nothing against money. I think money can be does wonderful things. Jobs, opportunity, growth, taxes, philanthropy. There's nothing wrong with power. Influence other people wielded in a virtuous way. Pleasure. I mean pleasure leads to babies. So great fame. You can refract your fame. I mean there are lots and lots of people I promise you Andrew there are lots of people pursuing their PhDs right now because of your fame which is a beautiful and a good thing for humanity. The problem is it'll hurt you if one of these things is your primary objective is your primary goal and you endow it with with mythical power. So I play a game with them. What's my idol? They don't know. They don't know what their idol is. You want to play? >> Yeah. >> Want to play? What's my idol? >> Yeah, I'm a little scared, but let's do it. >> Let's do it. >> I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes protein bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 gram of protein, only 150 calories, and zero gram of sugar. I have to say, these are the best tasting protein bars I've ever had. And I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years. These new David bars have a marshmallow base and they're covered in chocolate coating and they're absolutely incredible. I of course eat regular whole foods. 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The way to know what your idol is and again what Aquinus suggests and what modern social science absolutely verifies is that again nothing wrong with these things but if you pursue this this winds up being the source of your later bitterness and regret. The reason is because when you pursue these things you're doing it at cost and the cost is almost always love. >> Love is the secret to happiness. To love and be loved is what we want. And when you pursue something that's not real, that's not alive, then you're you're sacrificing opportunities to love and be loved if you pursue it as a goal, per se. But when you know what your idol is, you'll still make mistakes. You're still going to mess up. You're still going to be miserable a lot, but you will sometimes avoid the error and which is incredibly powerful. The way to play this game is to eliminate because you always do elimination when you're trying to do these things. It's much more robust. It's actually better. Eliminate the idol that you don't have one by one by one. It's going to get harder as we go along. It's going to start off really really easy. I can even make predictions about you about what what you would eliminate, but eliminate them until you until you've got the last one. And that's the one that's most likely to beguile you and lead you down the wrong road. So, money, resources, power, pleasure, fame, or adoration of other people. You you're going to get rid of one. And this doesn't mean you don't have it. It just means you're the population average. >> Get get rid of one of those. >> Yeah. If you got rid of money, for example, you say, "I don't care about it." That just means you're the most average American economically, which by world standards is unbelievable. And historical standards is fabulously wealthy. >> So you said it was money. >> Uhhuh. >> Power, >> pleasure. And pleasure can also be comfort or security, >> right? Or and and honor, which is prestige or fame or adoration or whatever it happens to be or respect. >> And power can be uh benevolent too, right? >> Totally. All these all could be great because the most virtuous happy people have these things. >> Yeah, >> they have a lot of these things. >> Yeah. I don't I don't care about uh I don't care much about um the notion of like honor and accolades. In fact, just as a very brief anecdote, it was right. I'd been tenured for maybe three, four years. Yeah. And I was struggling financially as a professor despite what people might think about Stanford and I was happy to one of those. And so I had a conversation with uh my then chair or was it vice chair? And he said well you know at some point >> you know you'll be chair and then of the department because it's rotating chair. I'm still in this department by the way. We'll see if I still am at the end of this conversation. What what the heck? And he said you know it comes with a a pay increase. And I was like, really? And I I thought about I'd seen what happened to chairs of departments couldn't focus too much on science. A totally it's a um punishment disguised as an honor. >> It's a punishment to any real scientist, but they may but they cloak it and they say, "No, this is service to the department." >> And that's true, >> right? >> Some people are exceptional at I have a close friend of mine for childhood. He's a chair. And but the chair needs certain attributes >> that that um are important. And I and so my the response out of my mouth was how do I make sure I never become chair? [laughter] Well, so I think now it's very unlikely I'll be chair of the department. I'm not around enough. But um [clears throat] like how do I make absolutely sure that I'm like not like like I'll do anything to not be chair by virtue of the fact that my dad's a scientist and I grew up seeing a lot of scientists and hearing about a lot of luminaries of science. I heard I heard this story about Richard Fineman, the great Richard Fineman where apparently I don't know if this is true or not, but he was elected into the National Academy of Sciences and I think at the inaugural dinner he said like to someone like, "Well, what happens now?" And they go, "Oh, you elect other people in." And he goes, "Wait, so this is like a club where like we pin medals on each other." He go and he goes, "I quit. [laughter] If it's not true, it's awesome. If it's true, it's awesome." That's funny. >> And and I knew >> that true or not, what the what the story illustrates is that like those honors mean nothing. In fact, the most important thing about a Nobel Prize, I believe, is that it allows the winner in addition to the value of the discovery, but it allows the winner to be a great fundraiser for other people at the university. >> That's it. >> Yeah. >> And so, and the discovery obviously, but um anyway, so honor doesn't really like like I'm not interested in medals or things. I got a PhD because I needed one to get to know. >> But you become super famous as a public intellectual. Is that important? Does that motivate you? Because that's, you know, that's a different kettle of fish, isn't it? >> I will go on record saying that uh fame increases your opportunities exponentially and limits your freedoms exponentially. >> Um, no, it's not important to me. It's it's a it's a um it's a byproduct of the pursuit of other things. >> Are you an introvert or an extrovert? strongly introverted despite how much I talk. Got it. I need a lot of time. I get it. I need a lot. You should see me when I'm alone. I talk even more. No, I'm kidding. >> You're probably exhausted after a podcast. >> Yeah, I love my team and but I interact with very few people on purpose. No, I um very I need time um to think and I love people, but I'm very very introverted. >> I got it. Yeah, I got it. Okay. Go. So, I I believe you. And so, you'd go to the normal the most normal. You'd be as famous as your mailman. Oh, that would be awesome. Okay. I have the best like the people that clean up my neighborhood. I live in a pretty grungy neighborhood. My place I do my best to keep really nice. These people are like my heroes. I'm always bringing the matina and like they they're out there like they're literally scraping up from [laughter] animals people. Like I love these people and they're so like the ones I know so happy. They're so happy. And I'm like, man, one, maybe someday I just like throw on one of those orange vests and just like disappear into like, >> you know, I won't name a town, but Yeah. >> You don't don't name the town or pretty soon they'll find you. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> So, okay. Good, good, good. Now, we got rid of the easy one in a way. >> Money, power, pleasure. >> What's next? That means it's going to be a little harder because all these things are, you know, have their rewards. >> Yeah. >> So, which one do you get rid of next? >> Pleasure. >> Pleasure. And then because you're pretty austere. I mean, you're you're I mean, look, your book's called Protocols. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I inherited my my mom's um people I was this kind of like um observer comes on where like people are going to think I'm like scripting this. My mom has a save the world piece of her that's very real and very alive in me. But the thing we also share like a desire to to save change, positive change. But the thing that comes alive in me that I definitely got from her, it's like if an emotion like gets to me, if it comes up, it's big. Like I like the people I love, I love so big that sometimes I think the top of my head's going to explode >> like or that I think like my heart's going to explode. >> And and it's and it's not comfortable. >> It's a um it's I've gotten better at tolerating that. >> Yeah. It makes me emotional cuz I I do think that like grief is proportional to love and but so I don't walk out of my podcast studio where I work with my best friends. Not all of them but all of them are my best friends. It's not but I have best friends elsewhere too. But I walk out and I don't think oh god like >> one of them might die on the road tonight. I just think I'm the luckiest >> human being on the planet to work with these people doing. So but it fills me so much sometimes. It's a lot. It's a lot to to tolerate. So pleasure is not something that I like I don't need more intense experiences. I'm having intense experiences from the moment I wake up until the moment I go to sleep. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you and you're and you're not a drinker. You're not a >> I'm not a drinker. I've never been a drug guy. >> So let me say something nice about your mom. Okay. So the fact that you kicked out uh honor right from the very beginning. You know what honor addicts all have in common? They think that love is earned. >> That's what they all have in common. They usually have this common childhood where they're really really good at something. I know you were a good student and you were a good skateboarder and you were good at I was wait to be fair before the the internet comes for me. I was not a very good skateboarder which drove me toward academics because I kept getting hurt. I loved the sport and I was a I was a good student but I was not I I always had to work hard. >> Yeah. It's very easy for for for a lot of young people, particularly the young people of of those who are of intellectuals and and excellent people to learn from their parents that they get attention and affection when they do something unusual. >> And the result is that their little brains register the idea that love is earned. And love isn't earned. Love is a free gift freely given. Love is a grace. Mh. >> And if you go through life, particularly in the most plastic part of your of your, you know, your psychological formation, thinking that love is earned, you'll surround yourself with people who will make you make you earn their love. You'll marry somebody who who will make you earn her love >> and friends who kiss up to you and say, "You got to earn my love." And the result is you'll go from person to person to person. You'll be a real honor addict. And and what what people have in common is that they have a big public life which happened to you that you'll crave the adoration of strangers. You'll actually crave it because that's the addiction is trying to earn the love even of strangers. And that's a big problem. So who actually made you whole? >> Probably your mom, >> probably your parents because they loved you unconditionally and they probably still do. >> That's good parenting. Yeah, that's >> they definitely did and they and they uh love love us unconditionally and they definitely do. And um yeah, I get a zero zero dopamine hit from people saying, "Oh, you're so and so. Can I get get a picture?" It doesn't bother me, >> right? >> What does fill me is when I get an email that somebody's like, "I'm going to go study neuroscience or I did this thing and it really, you know, I learned from so and so on your podcast and and it's and it's enriched my life." That feels really good because then I feel like, okay, great. Like I at least I know I'm not wasting my time. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> money and money and power >> and money just means resources. It's the ability to do stuff. It doesn't mean that it makes you more whole as a person, but it and and often this can the answer can come from a sense of identity. So often money idol will come from people who grew up rich because that's what it means to be a normal person. They or they grow up poor because they know how bad it is when you don't have it. So there's all kinds of circumstances that can provoke this and and and power is just like I I want to be in charge. I really really want to be in charge, >> which is not it's not it's not a vice. It's not a you know, but but it's really what drives you. So which one do you get rid of next? >> Money. >> Money, which is you you become the most you become economically just like your postman. >> Yeah, I I'd be fine. >> Who probably has? >> And I'm saying that now from a position of financial security. So it like >> No. No. And look there in the comments somebody's going to say, you know, >> easy to say. Hubberman and Brooks are yeah like completely full of it because they're you know right I got it but I believe you >> yeah but >> because you look you have been in both situations >> definitely so my chairman in San Diego before I moved my lab to Stanford he had the I went to him for a salary increase so in that department you could set your own salary as long as it wasn't higher than his >> and I had a lot of grants >> get him a raise >> what what what do you want to earn what do you want to earn and I told him and he said no there was no parody in that department in our in my department at Stanford there is you I you can't make more than someone more senior than you, right? So parody is important in certain departments, not in others. >> And uh I had a lot of grants. I'd like a raise of $20,000 this year, which on the significant fraction of what I was making. >> And um and he said, "Just remember, he like did the whole like pivot and look thing like that like you're not allowed to do anymore like like male chairman pivots towards you like like sitting with his knees open and he like did like you can never get away with this anymore." And he said, "Just remember, you're going to make a lot less money than you deserve." He was talking about then and he's like, "And then in the later part of your career," he was talking about himself, "you're going to make a lot more money than you deserve because you're going to have 10 year guy." And he was absolutely right. There's Bill Mobly. He's still alive and and um he's actually a meditator. He's friends with the Dollaly Lama. So, hi, Bill. He was absolutely right. >> I didn't know how that was going to happen or anything. I didn't know it was going to happen, but it turned out that that's true. So if I were to average my income >> back across two and a half decades of >> yeah I I was perfectly happy to live in a lab sp and save up a little bit of money to be able to go snowboarding once a month in graduate school. Like why pay rent? They have showers in the building. They're called monkey cage washers >> you know like you know like [laughter] you can't turn the heat on you know like they have a bathroom with a sink. Like people thought I was crazy right? But then then I didn't have to commute, you know. Now granted, I wasn't married with kids or anything, so I've lived both ways. I wouldn't say I've ever been poor. I won't I want to be honest. >> Money is not like >> it's great. >> It's not that fun. >> I mean, >> it's not that much you can you imagine like having a boat. >> No, that'd be a pain. Save me from the boat. >> No, no. I had to go on a long boat thing with my grandfather. It was It was like It was torturous. I want to go out on the boat for a day. I like seeing boats on the ocean. I like scuba diving. I'm not No. I it would be nice. We're talking extremes here, but no, money is not a a big motivator for it's nice to have, but I'll tell you >> I'm sort of answering what I think will be the next question. The best thing about having money is that I can use it to do things for other people. And that falls to me under this thing that you're calling power, but benevolent power, >> but also gives you freedom. And freedom is nice. >> Freedom is nice. And being able to make I'm not just making this up to make life easier. >> Yeah. by way of money or by way of connections. Like we were talking earlier about I know a lot of people who either have or know people with serious medical issues and I can connect them to the >> like to the one of three people that might actually be able to help them when no one else can. >> Like I've got story after story about I don't take credit. I just happen to know the best people in these little subdomains >> and it doesn't always work out that way but a lot of times they're like >> wow. >> And so I'm not the physician. I'm just the concierge. But the fact that I have this job allows me to do that, >> right? >> And the degree allows me to do that. Money doesn't allow me to do that, >> right? >> It's just my network is insane. >> Yeah. No, for sure. >> And the ability to use it for to help other people like and part of that is having people like you on this podcast, >> right? Like I Rob and I sometimes talk like I was like I can't believe it. Like we had like FA Lee on here. It's a colleague of mine at Stanford. You can't get an hour with her at Stanford, but she came here and talked for three hours about AI. >> Yeah. >> Like, and I can share that with the world >> that or share what you're teaching to the world that we're not just having this conversation on a walk >> and we can share it with the world. That to me is like >> power. Now, power >> which is the ability to to be in charge >> to to be the maestro >> to which is to say I I'm I'm going to be in I'm not going to be subject to the authority of another person. Oh, >> that is tricky. Which is which it is tricky to be sure. Now, you're not a vice filled person. I mean, you're a person who's actually you you don't have big problems in these in this regard. But what Aquinas suggested is that when you've eliminated the others that what you found is something that might make you stumble and that might distract you from the things that really matter, the the the ways that you can actually have love in your life. And what the funny thing about it is that if I said, "Okay, just tell me your idol from the very beginning." you might not have eliminated it to that particular point. >> Yeah. Because I think that uh it's it's really an interesting exercise. Obviously, I'm doing this with you now, but I I hope people are doing this in parallel because that's what it's all about. It's not about me and the example. >> Yeah. No, it's we we want people to know their idol. >> Definitely is that the words carry they're loaded words. Money, power, uh honor sounds actually cool until you really dissect it and then you realize it's just as uh you know nuanced as the others. That's that's the ancient that that's how Aquinus would have understood uh holores. >> Yeah. >> Right. Which is not virtuous inherently. [laughter] >> Right. Right. So the words are are can be a little misleading. I will say where I've tended to stumble on the backdrop of all this before people, you know, it's not about avoiding the comments. Um in fact, please comment. >> Yeah, totally. And we love them all. >> And and like and suggest like and [laughter] share. Just kidding. >> Don't forget to subscribe. subscribe button is, you know, but a big part of it also is, >> you know, that of course I'm susceptible to like the lure of pleasure, the lure of I mean like I'm human, right? We're all wired for it, right? The place where I've stumbled consistently is when overresourced in a particular place. I I don't always think about what the full arc of requirement is when trying to I believe in a benevolent way share resources, >> right? >> So, it's much easier to to like connect somebody to somebody and then if it's not going well to be like, well, that's their problem now. as opposed to really continuing to to like make make sure that happens, right? So, sometimes the the big learning for me has been >> whenever over resourced in any area, whether it's money, energy, generosity, whatever, that I need to be careful because the misperception is that because there's more than enough of it for me, I can just share whatever's left, >> right? But there's a hidden cost >> and it's the cost of making sure that all of that goes smoothly. >> That's and that's a cost that's hard to quantify. And the most painful thing in my life nowadays is actually pulling back the places where I I l my team knows this. It's like if I meet someone on the street and they are like they tell me something and then they want to tell me about like they have a question because they have an uncle who has a stroke and like I know a really great person for certain kinds of stroke. I'll take their I'll give them my phone number. Yeah, >> I've given up, you know, like I'll do this whole thing, but then later it's very hard to find the time to make sure that if they're not getting feedback that I can do the the call where I connect the two. >> And so there's this the hardest part for me is I I can't do it. And I got this from my mom. >> She sees a homeless person on the street. >> And when we were kids, we discovered she was putting homeless people up in hotels like and we'd have people living in our garage and like she can't help herself. >> Now she's better about it. Um but it it comes from a good place. >> She wants to fix stuff. She wants to fix stuff. She wants >> people suffering is very very and by the way our vices are our virtues. >> When I'm weak then I'm strong said St. Paul the Apostle. But also when I'm strong then I'm weak. Our strengths and weaknesses are opposite sides of the same coin. The weakness that you have, the idol that you have is also the opposite side of the greatest virtue that you possess. So that's one of the reasons that we shouldn't beat ourselves up about this, but we need to know what it actually is because that's what will actually lead you astray a lot of the time. >> Now, it's it's completely different for me. I would kick out power first, control first. The second thing I'd get rid of is pleasure. I'm a protocols guy, too. I'm very austere, right? I'm every day in the gym and, you know, I don't I eat a very strict diet and Okay. The third thing I would get rid of is money, resources. It's not I mean and and again like let's watch the comments light up. I got it. >> But what does that leave? That leaves honor. >> And the truth is I want people to love me. I want people to love me. I want this. It's so Look, dude. I'm 62 years old and I still want that. >> It feels good. What do you It's not even feeling good. It's like >> I'm not a human being. I'm a human doing. Hm. I'm trying to earn everybody's love. It's so dumb. And I recognize it now. That's power right there. Is power because I know when I'm doing it and and and I'm held accountable for it because my wife does not have this. Absolutely have this. And she'll say, "You're doing that stupid thing again." You know, why would you marginalize the people that you actually love for the adoration of strangers for Pete's sake? Why would you go do that thing that that you know people really want you to do? You want it because you want people to appreciate you is what it comes down to. you I say you're right is the whole point and the whole point is also that this is what I do for a living this is what I study and I'm weak and and I'm frail in this particular way and when I resist that idol when I fight against that idol then I choose the better path and I choose the space of moral aspiration and that space of moral aspiration is to love and be loved that's what the space of moral aspiration that's where it actually takes me to love and be loved not by the strangers not the prestige of the crowd not the the the the the the honor that comes from rising in the hierarchy. We're a tropical kinbased species hierarchically arranged. This the animal impulse comes from rising in our band of 30 to 50 hundred gatherers, you know, 250,000 years ago. I mean, this is all biologically wired. But when I understand that, then I can actually do what the what the you know that Dante in in the inferno um he he talks it's arranged around the seven deadly sins but he also talks about the seven um the heavenly virtues you know and so so pride humility right envy admiration is what it comes you know this that the heavenly virtue of this is is the of of the four are what you truly want what you truly deeply want in your soul. To love and be loved means that you're spending your time on your faith, the love of the divine, your family, the people that are biologically or by adoption related to you, your friends, the people that you actually choose and serving the whole world through the way that you earn your daily bread, which is to earn your success through your work, faith, family, friends, and work. And then only when you know that that idol, you can pivot to the thing that that your soul actually wants, the thing that you actually hunger for. And that's where real satisfaction comes in. That's where you gain the satisfaction that you've always wanted. >> Can I ask you a question about the adoration piece and applause and that kind of thing. >> So embarrassed. >> No. Well, I'm embar you know I mean it's like that it is it it's a vulnerable place to like reveal cuz the word is is is are tough like power like you know like you know like Hubberman admits that he is driven by no it's like power I want to help people >> no you want you have you want to have control over what you can control it yeah >> yeah and um but so when let's say you you give a lecture to to a a group that um you respect them as an audience whoever happens to be there like you respect your audience which so important, you know, like you um and >> they love their >> and they Yeah. And and and you you get the feedback that you really like you knocked it out of the park. Yeah. You knocked it out of the park. >> When you go back to your room at night, are you the sort of person that thinks about um that and how great it feels or are you thinking about this one thing that you said that you wish you had done differently? Are you the like the one the one thing that I wish I hadn't said kind of person or are you the or are you like basking in it? No, I'm not basking in it. I mean, I'm actually self-critical. I'm thinking about what it could be differently because it wears off and it's eancent. It's like a summer rain. >> You know, the the adoration of strangers feels good in the moment. I mean, in neurochemically, it it wears off very quickly, of course, because what you're getting is, you know, when when you look at people who are deeply addicted to success, it looks very much in in what in under brain scans to people who are actually getting highly glycemic carbohydrate treats or even a hit of cocaine. you know, you win in some little game and and you know, and obviously we were talking about dopamine here is you actually see it's the same thing, but that doesn't last. That's not supposed to last. That's supposed to wear away. And the first thing that somebody wants who's an addict is another hit, whether it's a line of cocaine or another round of applause. >> So, by the time I'm back in the hotel, I'm think that different. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Actually, what it comes down to. But, by the way, we got to know what the solution is to this. And the solution to this is not to say, "Okay, I'm a horrible human being." But [snorts] it's actually to pivot to choosing the path of the man that I want to be. >> You know, I I I I don't give into the animal impulse to stay under the covers past 4:30. The man that I want to be is down in the gym by 4:45. >> 4:45 a.m. [clears throat] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's right. >> Yeah. I mean, the the man that I want to be um when I'm either thinking about something I did wrong and I'm beating myself up or, you know, wishing there was another round of applause is somebody who is deep in prayer. >> That's the man that I want to be >> because I do know that that my metaphysical fitness depends on this and that's a choice that I can actually make. I have a question about um who we I don't want to say idolize but among humans can you name people alive or dead that um sort of embody or collectively sort of embody who you aspire to be like or do you not put humans in that category because one thing that I realized in this discussion around power and I'm not trying to uh soften anything around that is I've always had this list of people whose like careers and art and music and stuff I really admire. And in looking over that list, I try and like sometimes see like the through lines, >> right? >> And I can tell you that almost all of them brought together unique things based on their past, their circumstances, etc. to to like change the game. >> Like to me, that's kind of the ultimate. It's like >> in our business, >> Yeah. >> people think differently. The paradigm change. >> Yeah. It's like to change the game like um and it for me this is a very important like time space dilation where I can look back on the history of science and the couple of neurobiologists who were there at the beginning like >> Ramoni Kahal you'd say he changed the game because he kind of like >> made the game he created the game basically slicing up brains and understanding function but like but a few people came along even in my career in the time of my active lab career and I was like they really changed the game and then I asked so why did how and why did they change the game and you realize that every technique is fleeting because it gets replaced almost always right and so you start to realize that oh like it was always this unique kind of like artist scientist poet intersection and I realized like oh that that's like that's the thing was people that are like outside the box because they found a unique confluence of things striving for that is way more important to me than quote unquote power Yeah. >> It's like to be able to say like I did it not my way, not their way, but I did it my way. Period. >> Like a unique expression that could only have been me >> coming out of me. >> And I don't And so I'm not in competition with with some with some structure with other people. That to me is above the four idols that you describe. >> No, I get it. I completely get because it's like >> like that's like winning. >> That's what you admire and that's what I really kind of like an ideal type. That's what it actually means to be >> successful. That's what it means to be a success and that's what excellence means to you. That's that's the personification of excellence is actually that kind of intellectual entrepreneurship. >> Yeah. It's almost like it it moves from the because you said like to lead. I actually am not concerned with leading. I also didn't want to be a chairman, right? Like I don't want to run businesses, my podcast. I let someone else do that. He's way better at it than I could ever be. It's what I'm interested in is being outside of that but still ethically completely free. >> Yeah. >> Like I can't lead because I can't show anyone how to >> be me cuz they're them. >> I can show them how to I can get some ideas about how they can be them, but that's like an internal process for them. So that to me is like the ultimate when I think about Ramoni Kahal is a good example who by the way the greatest neurobiologist of all time ever by by huge huge margin >> also is like really into weightlifting he was an artist like he was an incredible like he drew images of the brain and inferred from that function from dead tissue amazing amazing human being like he's an end of one >> but it was the confluence of his interest in physical exercise and neuro anatomy and art that made him. Ramon Kahal, no one else can do that, >> right? Like, so I don't want to be like him. >> No, I got it. >> Because he did it the best. Like, why would you want to be like him ringing? >> You want to be excellent like him, but as Andrew Huberman. >> Exactly. To me, the unique expression and like, you know, we I think we'll eventually get to notions of like not notions. We'll talk a little bit about God and faith because that's actually where you and I connected in person for the first time was talking at Stanford about science. Very openly. But that to me feels I could be misinterpreting the message but I feel like that's what God wants for all of us whether it's and in the different domains of of life. >> Yeah. >> And of course adhering to ethics like there are rules there are structures we have to obey within that but our unique expression. >> I feel like that's why we're here. That's I I tell myself this. >> No like I I completely agree with you and you know so people often ask so who who's your hero? I I don't know. I don't know. my dad, you know. Um, >> you're like Jesus. You say Jesus. >> Jesus. Yeah, I know. It's like like I mean it's like who's hero, but it's like no, I mean Jesus is the master, but the hero it's like the hero. No, it's not like some sort of hero's journey, some yungian, you know, archetype that we're talking about here. I I struggle with that as well. But I do see people that I I deeply admire precisely for this for this reason. So somebody I really admire the guy in my field the social science scientist par excalance is James Q Wilson [snorts] you know James Q Wilson James James Q Wilson who won the Congressional Medal of Honor you know which is pretty hard to do as a social scientist for you know for [snorts] no he died in 2012 >> and and he was the greatest political scientist of the 20th century and and somebody I knew he sat sat in on my dissertation defense which went very poorly. I mean, it was rough, man. I had two Nobel Prize winners in economics and James Q. Wilson. I was super nervous and it was it was it was it was not a great dissertation. It got signatures. [laughter] That's the scoreboard effect on that. That's all I can say. It passed. >> But he said to me after that, you know, he had written monumental books. He had done works. He had written a great book called the moral sense. That was the first time that a social scientist had actually used the tools of of empirical social science survey based data to understand the the moral sensibilities, the complex moral sensibilities that they actually possessed and just quantifying it. I read that I said I just want to do that. I want to do that. I don't want to be James Q Wilson though. I want to be Arthur Brooks, you know, and doing it my own in my own way. And he said, you know, at my dissertation defense, he said, you know, nice try. You're going to be fine. When you need something, give me a call. And so some years later, I was an assistant professor at Syracuse at the time. And I was I wrote my first commercial book, my first trade book, and it was about charitable giving. And it was it was it actually changed my life because the president read it for some odd reason and talked about it. And then suddenly I was my career was changed forever as a result of that, for for better and for worse. But when I was working on it, I wrote to James Q. Wilson and I said, "Would you read this manuscript?" And he said, "Sure." I sent it to him. and he said, "You know, I was going to write a book on this, but you've written I don't have to." Um, I'll write the forward. >> Awesome. Unbelievable. Yeah. >> Unbelievable. Later, he recruited me to be the president of the American Enterprise Institute. Uh, because he was on the board of that. And he was on the board until he passed away and then I spoke at his funeral. I had the honor of speaking at his funeral at the at the memorial chapel at Harvard where his funeral was held. And it was just this guy. He was a a one of a kind. And I want to be a social scientist too, but not just like him. Not even studying the same things that he does, but to have this this intense curiosity and and using the tools of science completely in the public interest. That's what I want to do. And so that's what inspires me. So my hero I I guess, but it's the admiration that I have because he was fully alive. He was fully alive in the way that I think that it was his destiny to be in all of us. And everybody watching us, like everybody watching us and listening to us is got their thing. That's what our destiny is to actually find that thing and be truly excellent and use it to serve. Be as excellent as you can possibly be in in being a, you know, drywall hanger and, you know, and and being a cook at a restaurant, in being a college professor, god forbid, being a politician, in the public interest, in the private interest in in in showing people that this is an expression of your love. You see, in this way, it's godly in this way. You know, in the book of Genesis, it's, you know, God created heaven and earth. That was his gig. That was his job. And it was an expression of his love. This is what you and I can do. This is what you do. This is, by the way, you're popular because you're good at your job, for sure. But because you want the best for everybody, because this podcast is an expression of Andrew Huberman's love. That's why it's successful. And everybody can be su successful in their way can be, you know, have their own humor and podcast, not in podcasting necessarily, by actually having it be an expression of your love, love for humanity through the way that you're earning your daily bread. That's the quintessential expression of excellence in my view. That accord with yours? >> Very much so. And I, you know, it occurs to me like, you know, um, and maybe I'm a little bit bothered by this word powering and I'm striving for it to not misconrue, but but if No, no, no, no. I I just I mean, but but I'm I'm embracing it today. But what to me the ultimate win I realized um a few moments ago is like what I'm really trying to do in this podcast thing is I love learning >> and when I find something that I think can be of use to people. >> Yeah. >> Uh I teach it because what's most satisfying to me is if people change their behavior and it leads them to a better place mentally, physically or both. Right. And then they also understand why it did that, >> right? >> And then they pass it along. >> Like and and there's no need for attribution in that, >> right? There's no need for attribution. And I hope that like I have a few friends who are actors, a few friends who are musicians, and I have to imagine that they love acting and playing music, and those sorts of people provide incredible enrichment to my life. I love music. I love I love film and as a consumer. But I've heard them say things like, "Yeah, you know, like you can transport somebody, you can inspire them." And I think ultimately that's what it's about is like I think that we do at our best. I think we all want to find the thing that we love to do, put it out there, and I think we have this sense that it that it could possibly ripple through time without attribution. >> To me, that's like the ultimate power, right? >> Totally. I want to create happiness teachers. I I I want people to go be teachers because that's leverage. I want a better world. I want to lift people up with these ideas. I can't do it by myself. Well, the only reason we have like the microphones and the cameras are here, right, is to ripple it out further. These are lit, you know, they literally amplify things, right? So, but yeah, the the best way to amplifies amplify through space is the internet. The best way to amplify through time might be the internet, but the way to really reinforce that whole thing is to teach people things I believe in a way that they understand the process underneath so that a little bit of it >> so that they can and they pass both things along. This is why I think like cuz nowadays like I could go on any website and just go what are the 10 top things that people on their deathbed say are keys to happiness and I can get a list. Yeah. But people choose to listen to the mechanics of it because there's something about the human brain. I'm certain that when we understand a bit about the mechanics that gives rise to that thing, >> that's our buy in. That's the per that's the cost of admission and then it becomes worth something. That's the effort that comes before the >> Yeah. Well, you know what they say in medical schools? They say at Stanford Medical School to become a surgeon, you need to watch one, do one, teach one. >> Watch one, do one, teach one. And and you know the truth is that the that the the process of learning and you know there's a ton of research on how people learn and the way that people learn best is that they have to learn how something works then they have to actually practice it then they actually have to teach it. So my dad was a math professor he was a brilliant biostatistician. I one time watched him as a math professor giving an advanced calculus lecture and 90 minutes no notes. It was like watching Yasha hyitz and I was old enough that I had admiration for him. I was in my 20s before he died. He died young, but I was still in my 20s and he was still going. And and I said, "Dad," I was like, "That was a virtuosa performance. How'd you do [clears throat] it?" He said, "I've done it hundreds of times." And and he said, "The process is simple. You learn actually what's happening. You look at the proof. You admire the science and then you actually do a ton of problems and then finally you explain it over and over and over and over again." And the same thing is true for golf. And the same thing is true for speaking Spanish. And the same thing is true for for understanding how to live a better life. You need to know the science. The reason that I'm so fascinated with the science and I want to talk about it in my podcast every week is like it's so cool when you understand the science then you're more likely to change your habits and then you're more likely to spread it and share it with other people in which case you will be a virtuoso in it and you'll actually keep the cycle unbroken. >> That's magic. >> That's like it's [clears throat] a it's a complete miracle that that's actually how we do it. and and we have this moment, this miraculous moment where you and I can actually talk about serious science. We're not I mean this is not a doctoral seminar at Stanford or Harvard to be sure, but we're we're talking about the real thing and people will watch this like yeah that's like you know they're they're learning some things and they're going to go to someone going to go to PubMed and we're going to have show notes and and the whole thing and and then we talk about here's how you use it. Okay. So, don't when you go to the beach, make sure that you're going to a beach with a friend. And here's your pro your book is called Protocols for a reason with several hundred pages of footnotes. Right now, go share it. You know how many times people have told me, "Hey, you know what about coffee? You should wait for 90 minutes because you know the the caffeine molecule the caffeine molecule blocks the A2A adenosine uh receptors and and you won't get the crash at 2 in the afternoon." I'm like, "Yeah, I know where you got that. I know where you got that. You got that from Andrew." and and without attribution because they don't know they got it from you. But the whole point is the world's better. The world is better. That's how we can bless the world with what we actually do. And that's so great. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. 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I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. >> So, we got through enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. >> We got through enjoyment, satisfaction, not meaning. >> Well, we have not gotten all the way through, but we um So, tell us more about meaning. So, we got the idols. Yeah. >> So, those are the things to be aware of and >> that will block your satisfaction that they promise satisfaction and they don't deliver. >> They won't deliver the satisfaction that you seek, but but your brain tells you that they will. That will put you on what we in in my community call the hedonic treadmill. >> Hideonic simply means feelings or or or in your vernacular, you know, is activity. The lyic system >> and and that the treadmill means that the the lyic system resets because emotions are not there to give you a nice day. They give you, you know, set of signals about threats and opportunities so you can react and they reset immediately. >> You always think they're going to last forever. So, you have an incentive to either avoid or approach things. >> This is the uh you don't see it much anymore, but there used to be a a bumper sticker out there that said that the the person who dies with the most toys wins. >> Yeah. Right. >> It's that one. Uh which reminds me about quantification. Can I share this with you? It's not it's not it's not my original idea, but Anolky, Dr. Dr. Anna Olympia, >> she's been on I've had her on my podcast and and yeah, she's fantastic. >> Yeah, she's amazing. She she told me that there's something you um interesting uh one particularly interesting lens on any behavior is whether the person tends to quantify that behavior very carefully and kind of covet the thing. She said addicts will like constantly check back and see how many like pills they have, how many bags they have, how many um uh people who are obsessed, perhaps even addicted to making money will constantly check every single day. >> And it's and it's cloaked as feeling as the need to feel safe, but it has nothing to do with that. It's the libic system is very very good >> at charting profits and losses >> in whatever context that like making lists, quantification. So, we have to be very This is not a a call to not track your sleep or something or your HRV. >> But, by the way, >> Mhm. >> it can be a problem. It can it can be a I check it fitness trackers. >> I check my sleep once a week against a subjective quick line >> or your HRV or >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So anyway, I I it's something that I we don't hear often enough even in the neurobiology uh crowd that the libic system loves to quantify and if we get to the extreme of quantification in a given area we um of life of behavior of obsession it very likely not always but very likely reflects that that healthy behavior has become either an obsession or or full-blown addiction which I find really interesting. >> So interesting. So what are we what are we actually what is the lyic system actually trying to do with that kind of control that that's expressed through quantification >> never experience the drop. It's like a way it's not getting more of but it's it's in the getting more of it's it's it's it's right you're you're working against losses by telling yourself you have this >> it's based on loss aversion. >> It's loss aversion. Thank you. Yes. It's based on loss aversion. And I said it's funny. She said I said what do you mean? She said, "Oh yeah, like people who are are like addicted to like uh certain kinds of barbituates or painkillers or whatever will like line them up and like look at them and count them." There's a very pathologic uh instance of this which is very tragic too uh because they often die sadly. But uh one of the hallmark traits of like true anorexia is that the these reward circuits become such that the aversion of food becomes rewarding. >> Uhhuh. >> Which is >> you know deadly in its ultimate form. >> And people with true anorexia can look at an article of food and they have a calculator that can tell you within a very small margin how many calories, how much fat, how much protein. They they know they can they're like visual computers when it comes to food, right? And food aversion avoiding that stuff becomes their it's like a the addiction the the pleasure pathways get all inverted and they off it's the most deadly of the psychiatric disorders. That's an extreme pathological case. But she said heroin addicts who you would think can't get their life together can tell you exactly how much heroin they have and how much they they think they're going to get how much things they're often very good at math >> you know they understand you know and so quantification is kind of a hallmark feature of the of these rewards these reinforcement circuitries I thought perhaps that's an interesting point that I don't think we discuss enough so when I think about whether something is a an addiction a compulsion unhealthy or healthy the pursuit like how tightly am I quantifying every little bit of it and thinking about what I've done like you know >> yeah how many articles are on my VA you know whatever you know because we quantify your success and the more that we look at the you know you're not trying to pat yourself on the back you're trying to make sure that you're not falling behind >> I remember followers on you know I do think the social media platforms have have >> intentionally brought this in >> it's not like the number of likes can be reinforcing some but the number of followers people are monitoring their increases and decreases and they they kind of covet them. >> Yes, absolutely. And and the rate of change of your followers, for example, >> and the media will say like so and so lost x number of followers or whatever. Like it's like a thing. So I think there's something there around quantification. >> Wait till your book comes out. Wait till you experience the New York Times bestseller list for the first time. >> Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. You know Ryan Holidayiday, right? You ever had him on your show? >> I have not had him on the show, but I'm great. and and you know he he one time he said to me it's like I was sure that I was finally going to feel like completely alive if I if I someday he said I'm going to I'm going to visualize it I'm going to have a number one New York Times bestseller and he said and finally it happened and one week later I got knocked off the list by Trump's kid [laughter] >> Baron >> no I don't know one of his sons but you know it's like I don't know and and and his whole point is that it's so absurd because it's completely arbit arbitary, right? >> The metric is arbitrary, >> but what you're trying to do is you're trying to quantify your sense of self. >> Am I enough yet? Am I good enough yet? Am I enough yet? And so on the one hand, you're actually talking about the addiction. But one of the things that I see again and again and again and again is that people are trying to prove to themselves that they actually are enough and and they don't feel like they are. And the way that they earn it is actually by looking at the scoreboard. This is what a lot of wealthy people do. It's what a lot of academics do. It's like how many what's this? What's his h index? You know, like how high is the H index? And oh yeah, so and so is such a big shot. H index is like 36. Joke and nobody even knows what that means, >> right? 1% of the people watching us, but you and I know what that means. >> Yeah. Because it's about impact, right? Ultimately, people or they tell themselves it's that. But putting a a numerical score on something, I mean, the brain has circuits that are pretty much hardwired for counting. >> Yeah. I mean, my dog isn't as smart as my assistant's dog. He has a a hurting dog. They can count. They know how many people in he has he has a little major uh uh >> they look at you like it's like you look at like, "Stop judging." >> His dog is tracking how many in the group are here and how many are missing. That's what makes them really good at their job. And that's where they get rewarded by making sure they're all in the >> And here's the interesting part about this, Andrew. that function, that quantification function, that that the essentializing function of how much, that's what we're really good at using the left hemisphere of our brains. That's that whole theory of hemispheric lateralization that McGillchrist brought back. When I was a kid, there's right brain, left brain people, right people are artsy and left brain people are analytical. That's not right. But the how to and what side requires hardcore quantification, and that's a fundamentally a leftbrain function. The right side, that's complicated. Those are complicated problems, solvable but complicated problems if you've got the data. The right side of the brain deals fundamentally more with complex questions which don't have quantifiable answers. All they have is understanding. All they have is intuition. That's the why side of your brain, not the how to and what side. And that's where meaning resides, which is the last macronutrient of this. the right side of our brain, the the the the the love side, the meaning side, the God side, the the complex side, all the problems that are most important to you, but you'll never solve. I mean, my car is left hemisphere. My marriage is right hemisphere. I will never solve my marriage. Never. I mean, before we stepped in here, my wife texted me. Good luck. I love you. She does. I'm going to call her later. She might be pissed off at me. I don't know. I don't know. I've been married 35 years, Andrew. I don't know. >> I mean, she's Spanish, so it's really complex, but you get my point, right? I do. >> And and [laughter] and but but this is the thing, and this is the this is the problem that we face. You need an integrated brain. You get two hemispheres for a reason. And a corpus colossum to to connect between the two hemispheres. You get that because you got the the I'm going to go to work. I'm going to earn money. How to and what? Why? Because I love my family. Because I want to create value. because I want to do something important in the world. Right hemisphere, left hemisphere, right hemisphere. And when that's cut off and when you're stuck in the left hemisphere, for example, looking at your phone 205 times a day and taking, you know, an endless algorithm of useless information is fed to you, then meaning will be absent because you can only assess it on the complex side. And that's the biggest problem we face. You want to know the biggest crisis we face in happiness? It's meaning. And that's why [snorts] >> so how can somebody take steps to enrich the um the amount and the type of the array of meaning in in their life. You and I have done both a lot of work um in the world of addiction personally and professionally. And addiction is unbelievably interesting. It's endlessly fascinating how the human brain is is is captured. And and one of the things that you find is when people finally are not in the grip of addiction, there's three things that have to happen. Number one is they get pissed. That's what all addicts do. They they they get pissed and they rebel and they're like, "No, no more." You ever seen, you know, and you've seen people in 12step programs and they're like they might laugh about the crazy things that happened to them, but they finally like no more. I'm not going to put up with this anymore. You got to get pissed and rebel. The second thing that they do is they actually they understand something about the mechanism of becoming deaddicted and it's different in different ways. You're addicted to gambling, you're addicted to pornography, if you're addicted to alcohol, addicted to drugs, there's different mechanisms for becoming deaddicted. And of course, that's that's very complicated and very very hard and it requires science and you know and and and clinical practice etc etc. But the last part is actually the most difficult which is living in a new way living with you. You know, it's like it's one of the things that alcoholics always do. They always do this is they move. They always move. And they're like, "Dude, if I move, I'm it's like all these losers that are around me and I'm not going to see any of those people and I'm not going to be living upstairs from a liquor store and for God's sake, moving is going to do the trick. I'm going to change my circumstances." And of course, it never works because the first thing that jumps out of your suitcase is you with your alcoholic brain. That's the problem. And so you have to learn to live with you is the hard thing that actually comes from this. We [snorts] are deeply deeply deeply addicted. We're deeply technologically addicted. We're hooked into this thing. We all know this. You've talked about it at Infin Item. So have I. John Height, who's been on your show, has talked about the the affliction that we actually have. That's what we have to do. My work is fundamentally about how to rage against the machine to get pissed off enough. And even more than that, it's fundamentally about how to live with you, how to live differently. Cuz when you live with you, then you're in the right hemisphere of your brain. And you have to have right hemispheric experiences. Which, by the way, my great-grandfather, Leroy Brooks, he was in the right hemisphere all day long. He spent all day looking at a mule's butt. And he never came home and said to my great-grandmother, "Honey, I had a panic attack behind a mule today." No. And he also had never said, you know, my life is so boring. And and part of the reason was because his brain wasn't broken. His brain was working the way it was actually supposed to. But that's not ordinary today. And so what we need to do number one is we need to break the cycle. And then we need to live in an old-fashioned way. That's what it comes down to. That's how we find the meaning in our lives. And and breaking the cycle, by the way, I mean, we all know the research. You've had it on your show. I've taken huge amounts of knowledge from you >> on this. You can break the cycle of of technological addiction in your life simply by doing first hour of the day, last hour of the day, and meal times simply doing that. There's tons of research that shows that the neurokcognitive programming that happens in your first hour awake, the relationship programming and the sleep architecture that you wire in the last hour of your day and then and then and then the the the neuropeptides that you'll actually elicit by eating with other people without devices. Your bra your your relationship to technology will change, but you got to break the cycle. And there's tons of resources out there. How [snorts] do you live in a different way? Well, how do people illuminate the right hemisphere of their brains? They they they ask ungooable questions, >> right? Like why am I alive for? What would I give my life? You know, the deep philosophical questions. And that's what philosophy and spirituality and religion bring to you is the deep questions that are fundamentally ungooable. And that's one of the reasons that the hemispheric lateralization literature shows that when you're when you're in these spaces that your right hemisphere is fundamentally illuminated. You can train a gorilla to answer all kinds of questions but not ask interesting fundamental questions. That's humanity. That's godlike is to ask questions. It's to fall in love as a right hemispheric experience. It's deep deep mystery. It's like I that's the reason it's so scary. I don't know. I can't solve this problem. Somebody answer this question for me. No, man. You got to live it. You got to live it for the end of your days. That's why finding your calling. Why you and I were we have so much meaning through our work because we're living our calling. This is what we're meant to do. That's why a calling is what you're meant to do. It has the word meaning in it. That's why worshiping God, living in the the luminescent divine. That's why trying to become a syasi as the Indians would say is so critically important. That's why beauty, moral beauty, artistic beauty, natural beauty, these are right hemispheric experiences. And that's why suffering is so important because suffering helps you understand the meaning of your life per se. Suffering is where everybody's like when did you know who you really really were? How did you know what you were made of? They'll tell you something bad. Oh, that week at the beach in Etha. No. When my mom died, I loved her. When somebody left me at the altar, when I got fired, when I lost my business, god forbid, when I lost a child, people look back and they say, "That was the moment. That was when I knew." Why? Because that's when we were truly integrated. That's when we became integrated human beings. That's what it means to be fully alive, to find meaning. And ultimately, that is the path to happiness. >> Let that sink in for people. That's the real wisdom. And I I I'm going to stop you cuz I know you're super humble and you're going to pass it off on to someone else or something else. But um uh you really have a gift. Uh and it it comes through. >> Thank you, Andrew. That means a lot coming from you. >> Yeah, you really do because it like a lot of different ways people can say important things, but sometimes things just land and they just need to sit for a sec. So, um, >> I have some questions from that were prompted in your book, but I want to make sure that we return to this notion of faith. It's not something we talk a lot about on this podcast. I've talked about as a guest on other podcasts, but but you and I had a conversation about that. And I think probably by the time that this episode airs, >> that conversation at Stanford will also be public. >> Yes. >> And I recommend people watch it because that was really moving for me to have that conversation with you. to talk about your journey and you know the the the I mean it's really easy to get into the the physical fitness of life but the metaphysical fitness of life is a different >> different experience. >> The real like eye opener the first one for me was oh like striving for perfection it it might be perfection in quotes might be the goal but like no one attains that no human attains that. So be careful to not ask humans for answers that are not >> possible to come from human beings. And that's where that eventually moved to a a a real a real faith, a belief in God, a uh a prayer practice that is at least for me it's it's the most consistent feature of my life for the last now almost 3 years. And it's been interesting to be in a relationship where we've like gone to church together and and to pray together or to just pray with somebody, right? And when [snorts] we parted ways at Stanford after the Veraritoss meeting, um it was so interesting because we said goodbye. We did the usual like hug like, "See you soon, brother. Look me up." And you said, "I'll pray for you." And you said, "And if you don't mind, pray for me, too." And I've been doing that. And it's it's a Now, some people might hear this and be like, "Oh, boy. Here we go." Couple of scientists talking about >> But if one just like entertains the possibility that maybe humans don't have all the answers. >> Yeah. That's like a great vista to like skeptically look out. Yeah, >> that's kind of how I think felt like a couple of years ago. It's kind of like and then you know over time I've migrated very far forward. But I think that the whole thing of being um like faith I realize isn't this thing that one necessarily especially like me if you didn't grow up with a lot of it in your family you know just like run and fall like in like like new best friend you know [laughter] it takes some it it doesn't have to happen that way but I think people see that >> and if it does it can be very brittle by the way >> and people see baptisms and they assume okay like into the water and you just like embrace right >> born again >> right >> right it's this like like thick black line that you type thing. And and one thing that I've learned from observing you and from >> conversations with you is that like >> it's allowed to be gradual. >> Yeah. >> You it's okay >> to be skeptical, to move forward, to move back, to um to explore, to to wonder like because that's all the stuff of being of having a human brain. >> Yeah. >> And God probably wants that for us. >> Yeah. And so I' I've been very very moved by your teachings on what at Veraritoss that day because for those that haven't seen it yet and and weren't there, it was very clear that there was like a seasoned pro in there. Arthur grew up with a lot of structured religion and prayer practice in his in his home and I did not and coming to this rather late. So I was like the newbie and it was so much it was so liberating for me to be on a stage where in a room full of people where I was certain I was in the bottom 1% of knowledgeable about the topic and that was what I could talk about and not knowing. Right. It was so beautiful the humility that you actually brought to that to say I don't know. I don't know man. I'm just fumbling around here. I'm just doing my best. I what what I have written on my heart is that there is something here and I want more. >> And this is somebody who's you >> that's it. By the way, this is >> according to the you know the great sages. This is not proof of God but it's evidence of something. Evidence of the existence of water is thirst. Evidence of the existence of sex is sexual desire. We want and there are no anthropologically any evidence of societies that are systematically secular. On the contrary, all human societies that we've been able to ascertain have a sense of the divine, have a sense of the things that we actually cannot see and we have an innate desire for it. Not every single person watching us and not everybody in the exact same way. This is something that's characteristic of humanity. Otherwise, it would be absolutely evolved out of us. And by the way, that's evidence that the divine exists is that we want the divine. >> It's our desire. It's like the thirst. >> It's evidence of of an appetite is evidence of the existence of its object. That's a classic philosophical argument. It's and and and again, that's not ev that's not evidence that God exists. That's not proof that God exists because you can't prove it. that faith is is is belief in a non in something that is fundamentally based on a non-estable hypothesis which is super hard for you and me because testable hypothesis that's where the action is. That's how we got hired at these fancy universities is testing testable hypothesis and yet the essence of living on the edge of the adventure of life as a scientist is to be in the realm of non-estable hypotheses of things that you deeply know in your heart exist. That's hardcore. That's what I want. That's the That's the bite out of life that I want to take. >> But in keeping with this analogy earlier about anorexia, and I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I'm also speaking about, >> you know, many many people whom I deeply respect who will say, "I don't have that craving. I don't they don't have that that wish. They don't have that thirst." Right? >> And I can imagine there probably two responses to that. One is that um something has been um deafly slid in front of them to give them the illusion that they're getting that thing, but it's not that thing, right? That they've made other aspects of life their I don't want to say their god, but it sort of filled in that that >> maybe the terror of death, all that Ernest Becker stuff and Yeah. >> Yeah. Or at the other extreme, it could be a sort of um spiritual anorexia, right? Like the circuits have like let's give them some credit. Maybe the circuits have actually modified to the point where the reward is in not wanting to satisfy the cra the craving cuz the brain will do this too. This is what's so weird about these uh uh reinforce I I prefer the word reinforcement to reward because it involves a it's it's more uh accurate because it's about closing a loop with desire and behavior. Reset desire behavior. >> That's the wanting, learning, liking cycle. It's based on reinforcement, >> right? So the reinforce like dopamine and reinforcement always works. Dopamine and reward it's complicated like you can stimulate dopamine through pain [clears throat] >> and no and part of it is the offset of pain. It's rewarding. >> This is one of the reasons that heroin addicts like the feel of the pinch of the needle going into the vein, >> right? That that that part that is the pain is part of the reward per se because it's actually reinforcing the behavioral pattern. Exactly your point. If there was such a thing as a a mild spiritual anorexia where people are actually getting pleasure from the fact that they are not interested in any of that >> and they got enough and they feel good not knowing right >> you hear this and I want to give um in fairness I want to acknowledge those people exist >> and they're like good with the fact that they don't have a relationship like a higher power relationship of belief in God they don't have faith they don't seem to have this thirst And the lack of it almost sounds in some cases like it's rewarding to them. >> There's a pride that actually comes from being nun, not an nu, n o n e. It's a designation. It's an identity actually. It's who I am as a person. I don't actually need that. >> And and by the way, there are all very compelling explanations that are not consistent or necessarily consistent with the idea that there's an all- knowing, allloving God. I mean Steven Cave at Cambridge has written a has a really beautiful book called immortality. Have you actually seen it? Have you read it? And and he's a philosopher and he talks about the fact that the human brain is able to is able to cap to capture the concept of physical death. You know you're going to die and you're you're completely comfortable in that knowledge. You don't might not like it. You might not want it now, but you know you're going to die. But your brain is incapable of of understanding non-existence. So, you know you're going to die, but you can't understand non-existence because that's goes beyond our cognitive capacities. And so, you got to resolve it. One way to deal with it is to not deal with it, to never think about it. Stay drunk and high or stay busy and be a complete workaholic. Stay busy. Another way to deal with it is to create a resolution that says, "I'm going to die, but I'm I'm going to continue to exist." And so, I can understand that. And that would be a social explanation for the concept of religion. Some neurobiologists, you know, back in the day in the 1990s and early 2000s were doing work on the God module in the brain and they were using these these mag, you know, remember those magnetic helmets that they were doing on this thing and and what they would do is they would stimulate the same part of the brain that's that's touched with people who have, you know, grandma seizures. And so a lot of people who have epileptic seizures events that they'll have it'll be a mystical experience. And you know, if you're, for example, a Catholic nun and you have an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the protocol from the bishop is to check you for epilepsy first because it might just be that you had undiagnosed epilepsy and you had a seizure and it made you have a mystical experience, right? Okay, I get it. You know, and then these are ways to actually say that, you know, Andrew and Arthur are going off the reservation here. They're not being good scientists. There are plenty good philosophical and neuroscientific explanations for the experience of God, per se. For me, that is uncompelling. And part of the reason that that's uncompelling for me is that I've been walking through across the earth for the last 62 years, and I can't get it out of my mind. I'm not worried about not the problem of non-existence. It's not that it's been resolved, but this is not a preoccupation of mine. And and quite frankly there are lots and lots and lots of times that I don't feel a single you know a single molecule of emotional faith on the contrary but I have a strong sense of the existence of the creator song strong sense of the divine do I understand him no I have a very imperfect physics for full disclosure I'm a Catholic and I go to mass every day why do I do that I do that because not because I feel it not even because I leave, but because I'm serving this intuition through practice. And by the way, for everybody who's watching us who's like, I don't know, maybe, but I don't feel it. So what? So what? You know, if I if anybody who's married, they know that if you went according to your feelings, you will not stay married a month. You absolutely won't. You don't even go according to your belief in the in the institution of marriage. You go you stay married because you practice marriage. And the same thing is true with your relationship with anybody, including with God. Start with practice. Occasionally, you'll believe and very occasionally you'll feel it. That's the way the whole relationship actually works. Andrew, that's the protocol. [laughter] >> I was happy to hear that the bishop has protocols. >> They do. But the protocol for individual faith is not feeling, belief, practice. It's practice, belief, feeling. without any attempt to take away from the the depth and and um and impact of what you just described. Uh I sat across at this very table from Pavl Satsulan who's one of like the most revered strength trainers in the world, right? And and he said like >> and he he said my as you occasionally he'd say my name Andrew and he like tell me something and I you know and he and he said >> you don't weightlift, you don't work out. He's like you practice strength training. Yeah. >> And it and I was like, "Oh, I sort of get it. I Okay. Yeah, we can call it one thing or another." He's like, "No, no, you every time you do it, you're practicing to get better at it." And that changes the whole motivational structure is is what he essentially was saying. And that changes your expectation of what you're going to get out of it, >> right? >> It's yes, you expect to get stronger, but it's this this notion that you're always the student of yourself. you're always the student of this process and you never really expect to like conquer it because there's always more weight you could add. Yeah. Now this is a very mechanical physical analogy to what you're describing but there's an important I think um elegance um in what he said and what you said and the similarity there I think is synergistic which is >> when something is a practice we are not focused on the outcome as much as we are the process that's you know fairly straightforward >> but then there's this almost like higher order thing that comes from that because it predicts with near certainty that you'll continue doing it. Whereas if you're trying to obtain the like grab the ring, get the prize, get the ribbon, lift the weight, that has a ceiling to it. And so what you're really talking about in the the real form of the word is ascension. Like through practice there's like ascension like otherwise like there's only there's the top podium, >> right? >> There's in science there's a Nobel Prize, you know, like there are these awards like you know, but the like those are things again that are human like we set those levels. But the laws of physics have an upper limit, >> but what you're talking about doesn't have an upper limit. Like like we can't say this person experienced God more than anybody else. And that's the goal. Yeah. >> Like there's there there is no ceiling to this this relationship. >> The way that the that that in Vadic wisdom, the way that this is understood, they have a very very elegant way of of understanding this. And and by the way, the idea of practice, no joke. You you practice your marriage. You practice in in your job. You practice friendship and you practice your religion for precisely the same reason that you practice lifting weights as opposed to just lifting weights. You practice it because practice you get better. You the progress principle. We've already talked about that. But the way the Indians talk about that over the course of a life is this and it's based on this empirical regularity. This is a weird thing. People tend to get more religious as they get older. And you know, James Fowler, the sociologist, wrote about this. He says, "People, you know, they wander away and they're in their 20s." I'm like, "Yeah, come on, man. I mean, a an all knowing, all loving God." Well, explain kids getting sick and dying. And and so they're like, "No, explain suffering, right? Explain suffering." And you and I have talked about this before. You know, we were at Stanford. We talked about the problem of pain and the problem of suffering. But when they're in their 40s, what what Fowler uh notices is people get more religious for the following reason. When you're in your 40s, that's when you're like, "Yeah, you know what? Nothing makes sense." [laughter] Actually, nothing makes sense. >> You've done enough that you can say that. >> Yeah. You can actually I I'm not going to resolve everything. You you want a closed form solution to life all the way through your 20s and 30s. You think that there's a a kind of a calculus to it >> and you realize that these are these are computational methods to everything that you're doing, which means you no there's no closed form solution. You got to get a simulation going here to to just to use I'm an old operations research analyst. So yeah, there's no closed form solution to anything you really care about which is you know the result of it is everything's messy and and you're much more comfortable with the cognitive dissonance of the problem of pain and the result of it is that you actually look for something that has these transcendent properties notwithstanding the contradictions that you actually see around you. The way that the Indians talk about that interest is as follows. Life is in four quarters. This is called the theory of the ashramas which is a Sanskrit word you know for for quarters of life and the ideal life is 100 years long and each one of these is 25 years but your results may vary right the first quarter is brahmacharia which means the student phase learn learn the second is grihasta which is the householder phase earn build earn build family business >> that's up to 50 >> that's up to 50 but at 50 you have a second adolescence that leads you into vana prrasta which is a a a word in Sanskrit that means It's from two words vana and prosta meaning retiring into the forest retirement and forest and it's a metaphor you back into the forest right and and what you're doing is you're actually gradually moving away from not from doing your job you know not from your relationships but from the scoreboard from the honors of the world and what are you doing you're getting into an elite training for the last quarter which is sasa which that is the to sit in the luminescence of the divine, of the godhead, of Brahman in Hinduism is the whole idea. But that requires super elite training. You're not going to get to 75 and and and experience time because time for people who are very religious or very spiritual. Time is completely different than the success addict who's like time's running out. [groaning] Got to do more more more like hideonic treadmill. For people who are very very spiritual, time becomes less forward moving and and more sort of lateral. It kind of spreads out like the delta of a river where it slows down and you can't tell where the ocean begins and the river finishes. That's your life. That that's what it means to sit in the luminescence of God. And when death comes, it's simply it's a it's a process. It's gradual. It's not binary at all. Notwithstanding the fact that we can actually say where the electricity of the brain stops. It it is a deeply deeply spiritual and comfortable thing. But that requires the elite training of anoprasta. not after 50 necessarily because most people listening to us if they're enlightened it might be they're 29 or they're 36 but the the elite training of and the elite training is actually not you know memorizing the whole Bible it's asking the deep questions who am I who is God who created this what is love am I loved can I love these are the deep metaphysical questions that actually lead us to the ultimate source of that love and the imperfect physics that is organized religion. >> How are you as a 62year-old um exploring this third phase? You described your you go to mass every day. Is that sometimes online or always in person? >> Always in person. So, and the great thing is, you know, the Catholic church is like Starbucks. >> It's like it's it's a very uniform available product with high quality. >> Mhm. [laughter] And uh and so you know I go with my wife at 6:30 in the morning every when I'm home and I'm home usually four days a week. I'm on the road 48 weeks a year but usually about 3 days a week that I'm out sometimes four days a week and you know I've got an app click next mass. It's great because it's literally the same product every place in the world 450,000 times a day. It's I'm very lucky in this way. >> So you're like playing a gym. >> So you're up at 4:30 in the morning. >> Yeah. And you're in the gym working out >> for an hour >> six, seven days a week. >> Seven days a week. >> Seven days a week. But it's a 4 day cycle. I'm not I'm obviously not doing the same thing, right? Have unbelievable stress injuries. >> Push pull legs yoga. Push pull legs. Zone two and yoga. >> Super impressive diligence. Um and then you're in mass. >> Mhm. >> And then you move about your day. >> Yeah. >> Do you have a prayer practice at the end of your day? >> I do. I I pray the rosary over the course of the day. Generally speaking, I pray the divine office with my wife, which is an ancient monastic set of prayers that that monks have been saying since St. Benedict in the sixth century. >> And that's a that's that that that punctuates the day. My wife and I, we do it on FaceTime or on the phone. Um, no matter where I am, almost any place in the world, as a matter of fact, before the end of the day. Sometimes if I'm in India, which I try to go every year, um, while I'm going to sleep, she's saying the divine office for for nighttime prayers at lunchtime. But we do that and we do that together because that's a deep deep right brain melding. One flesh for a married couple should be the union of the right hemispheres where you have a deep intuitive understanding of life itself that you can't quite explain but you both understand. That's the satisfaction of a marriage. >> So this right brain connection you know Dr. Alan Shore, right, who's been a guest on this podcast and and it I loved his book >> and um I mean he really emphasized the importance of this >> right brain connection between especially mother and child but also father and child uh >> husband and wife close friends. >> Yeah. that you know that the joining you know synchronizing the the rise in likeulation and then and then and also the troughs right and and and then the calm uh piece of no need for excitement like that as really the the core he was mostly talking about the psychology and neurobiology of of what real connection is about and so beautiful to hear you talk about that [snorts] in the context of of a romantic relationship >> and that's you know the nice thing about that we talk about faith family friends at work, for example, the apex of family and friendship is the spousal relationship. That's the apex because that's somebody that you've adopted as your kin. And it's the neurobiology of falling in love is so interesting, right? starting with attraction and sex hormones, but then but when the catakolamines get involved for for you know intense desire and and and anticipation of reward and the abullience that comes from the you know the norepinephrine release that actually comes and wondering does that text from her? It's one word, who cares, right? And then the serotonin drop, the deep serotonin drop that actually happens when you start to ruminate on the other person. The sweet misery that comes from the rumination on the other person, which is, you know, pretty much indistinguishable neurobiologically from clinical depression, right? It's like there's no serotonin in the syninnapse. And then last but not least is the is the these neuropeptides like oxytocin, vasopressin, but especially, you know, that that that bond you together and companion at love. Mhm. >> which is what you actually want. You've adopted that person. That's your person. That's your kin. That's your best friend. That's your lover. That's the person who actually shares the right hemisphere of the deep meaning of your life. And you know, one of the beautiful things about romantic love is it helps me understand how the philosophy and the theology and the neuroscience and the psychology. It's all one thing, man. It's all one thing. It all comes together in this beautiful way. That's why it's such a a powerful thing that that you and I want in our lives. as you and I need in our lives. >> Anyone can really start to clearly understand how while there are wonderful technologies and things available in the world that um so much of what we're offered and fed and paying for with our time, especially our time are ways to um shortcircuit the building of these things. Whether it's with a romantic partner or a vocation or with our friends or >> workism, alcoholism, pornography, all these things. >> Pornography is sort of like it like it it literally shortcircuits the circuit that is supposed to be this magnificent immensely complicated like cocktail of things that you would call like a really truly amazing relationship. And it's just it's tapping into one thing. I I'm sort of living in the land of analogies today, but not unlike when I had a guy on my on this podcast uh Chris McCertie who studies plant-based uh medicines but not psychedelics and he was talking about how you know the problem in this country is that we learn to isolate and synthesize the most potent of the plant molecules and they become very addictive. So whether they're painillers or they're cocaine or they're >> but that in the whole plant form these things actually had balance. >> And so there's a really I think an appropriate perhaps um uh analogy there that like when we try and get one slice of this in high potency and not have to risk anything to get it, you lose the whole thing. >> When you shear something off from the whole experience, that's when it actually becomes addictive. That's when it becomes pathological. Naturally speaking, a lot of these processes, a lot of the things that we actually experience are supposed to be there. Look, I mean, we're so good at at at taking at at solving a little problem and creating a major crisis, you know, [laughter] like, man, that's like I got a headache. I need something stronger. I need something stronger. I need something stronger. 100,000 people died of, you know, opiate overdoses or something last year. This is what actually happens. And then there are other things that we do as well. And by the way, you know, lest we look like we're, you know, holier than thou, workcoholism is a classic case of this as well. It's just that that particular addiction sheared off from the natural, you know, humane and and even divine process of creating value on this earth when we become workaholics. The result is that people congratulate us for it. You know, can you imagine somebody who said, "Andrew, you are unbelievably good at drinking vodka. You put away two 750ml bottles of that last night and and and you were completely blacked out, but I was amazed at how a great you are. You're talented. You're great drink. >> This was the college I went to. >> Uh you know, and I'm I wasn't a big drinker there, but people would try and impress each other with how much they could drink. >> By the time you're our age, however, if you're doing that, people are you think that you're you're a pathetic drunk. But if you're our age, my age, and if I'm 62 years old, completely neglecting my family, >> and doing only stuff to run up the scoreboard on money and power and fame or whatever, people are going to be like, "Dude, you're good at your job. >> You're awesome." You know, it's like I Yeah, you know how many speeches I gave last year? You know how many frequent flyer miles? People are going to be like, "That's really, really impressive." But the whole point is that's sheared off from the natural human experience. It's an addictive behavior. It's dangerous. It's pathological. It's bad for us and it leads to misery. >> Yeah. I think what saved me was hearing the phrase, I don't know where I heard it was, "Everyone loves a young drunk." >> Yeah. >> And I was like, "Oh, yeah." Like this this rolled forward does not look good. >> How old were you when you started >> in college? I mean, and >> you stopped really early. >> No, I drank, but I I noticed early on mostly because I was doing a lot of catchup with my academics and then got into physical fitness and I drank basically until my early 40s, but less and less and less and less and less. Oh, you did? >> Yeah. And then finally was just like no more. I'm done. I'm done. >> And um >> I drank more and more and more and more of this stuff. >> But I probably it was very socially um unacceptable and isolating to not drink. People like academics would be like you're boring. But I'd kick their butt the next day at the meeting when they're all kind of like worked. And then I'd see them and I I'm not one of these people like things like oh aesthetics and muscle and leanness are are all it. But I'd see people get tenure and I was like you look like you look like you aged 25 years and your kids are miserable and all I hear are complaints about this and I'm like you're not taking care of yourself so I don't want to be like that. >> So I figured >> I'm not the smartest but I can work hard >> right >> u and if I get more years then eventually I can catch up or get ahead but it wasn't really competitive for me. I also just didn't like how it felt. I lucked out but in any case with the workcoholism as you're describing it that is a very dangerous one. Yeah, that's usually a secondary affliction based on success addiction, the addiction to success which comes down to that reward, that reinforcement that re you get that little reward, the the reinforcement of your goodness, the understanding of yourself. And so success addiction leads to workcoholism. Success addiction once again is down is really downstream from you know earning love from the belief that I can I can be enough if I do enough. >> The human doing phenomenon is that actually what we see. The beautiful thing about this is that, you know, I I you know, I talk about the behavioral science principles. We've touched on the philosophy. We've talked about the theology. You've talked so much about the mechanisms on this show and in your writing and in your scholarship about the neurobiology behind it. And it we're all wonderfully made. This all ties up in the same area. There's no it's not like one thing leads in one direction every and something else leads in another. On the contrary, you can get there many paths to these truths. The real pity is when we're not looking for the truth. The real pity is when we're distracting ourselves from what it actually means to be the people that we want to be. Which leads us, you know, to the very beginning of this conversation. What if you were the person that you wanted to be? You know, that's and the fact that we can actually do so by looking at the space of moral aspiration. I think that's a miracle. I think that's an incredible miracle. >> Before we wrap, I have two things. Um, first a question >> and then and then a a consideration. So I suppose both are questions because the consideration is for you. The first question is for somebody listening to this conversation today. I mean earlier we were talking about um exploring one's uh choices about and um relationship to leisure and you you touched on a number of other important points that um you know people can return to because we've we time stamp these of course. But if there's a question or a small set of questions that anyone at any age can ask themselves that can help them redirect or or just better orient in space and time and choice making what are those I mean or do those do those sorts of questions self assessment actually does >> no well just you know like if we were going to if we would you know share this time on an airplane I'm like hey thanks and we didn't have cell phones I' be like anything else I should think about before we part ways like you got any suggestions >> you know or or a book, recommend, whatever. So much of what you've said today is fodder for more questions. >> Yeah. Um, which is which is means you've done which is >> our work is so awesome. Yeah. >> Like our work is like a self-licking ice cream cone. >> Yeah. Well, oh man, I haven't heard that analogy in a long time. That's how we used to describe some grants that we were about to deny. [laughter] So, let's not do that. So asking about how one spends leisure, understanding this relationship between um pleasure and moral aspiration and and and seeking to to fuse those because that clearly is a powerfully >> great thing to do. Who wouldn't want to do more of that? Are there any other sort of probe questions that we might ask ourselves like once a day or once a week? Um >> you know while we're leaving the gym or mass or whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah. What is the Yeah. you know and and there are certain things that you know inventories that I actually try to take you know to make sure that my my my my hygiene is appropriate >> right >> holding yourself to high account is unbelievably important holding yourself to much higher account than anybody else would hold you that's one of the reasons that pe the happiest people are the people who have a a strong sense of propriety that they practice when no one sees them >> you know that's the essence of being honest with yourself you know it's one thing to you and I know so many famous people and and and and typically they have a public persona and a private persona just because you have to separate those particular things but the happiest of famous people which is hard because fame is the only one of the worldly rewards you can only ever be happy in spite of never because of right and >> that's a better answer to what I I was asked earlier but like yes opens opportunities limits freedoms but you nailed it >> those people the people who are happy in spite of being famous are the same people when you're alone at dinner with them as they are in front of 10,000 people in an arena. They are. And I know people like that. I know people like Oprah Winfrey is like that. >> Oprah Winfrey is the same person at the dinner table as she is in a screaming arena full of people. And she's a well-integrated person. And she's happy in spite of the fact that she's one of the probably five most famous people in the world. You know, it's extraordinary. I mean, I just co-authored a book with her which was incredible learning experience about my own field by observing her life, right? But there aren't very many people like that. So the way to do that is to subject yourself to you know the the the queries that you would use on somebody else. you know what are the what are the probing questions and you know and protocols that we have it's usually based on you know asking people a set of questions you know I could walk through what's my idol am I serving my idols or a bunch of things like that but [snorts] fundamentally for example we all can fall into suffering about you know sort of the sense of emptiness the onwei that comes from you know the modern world we all feel depressed from time to time there is a a set of questions why questions that interrogates whether or not we actually are in touch with the most important macronutrient of our own happiness, which is the meaning of our lives. Here are the three questions, the three big wise that I ask myself continuously that I I I I probe and I have to answer honestly because being honest with myself is the essence of getting into the moral space. Number one, why do I think things actually happen the way that they do and am I acting accord accordance with that? And and for for for a religious person like me, if I say, "I think things happen the way they do because of the will of God, but I'm not acting that way," that's going to be a source of misery. Am I acting like I believe that the will of God exists and is true? Or am I acting like everything has to do with me, which means I'm freaking out about everything. I'm I'm I'm super stressed out about, you know, what's going to happen tomorrow that's completely out of my control. I'm anxious all the time. I'm worrying continuously. Worry is evidence of a lack of faith. And so therefore, if I say I'm committing to my faith, it immediately extinguishes worry. Right? You don't shouldn't feel guilty about it. You should act according to the person that you are. Number one, that's the coherence question for philosophers. Why do things happen the way they do? Am I acting that way? Second, why am I doing what I'm doing? That's the purpose question. You know, that's the purpose in life. That's purpose and meaning are not the same thing. Purpose is a subcategory of meaning. Why am I doing the things that I am actually doing? And then the next question beyond that is is that in accord with my beliefs? Am I doing the things that I'm doing in accord with my beliefs? But why am I doing them? And and and by the way, for you and me, it might be because I'm chasing my idol, because I want more control, because I want more adoration of strangers, because I want more money. Because I want to feel good. Is that in accord with my beliefs? And then the last part is why does my life matter? And that's really to whom am I acting according to the people to whom my life actually matters? Am I acting that way? Am I am I marginalizing? And by the way, Andrew, I've screwed this up so many times. When I was a CEO running this big nonprofit organization, which was so important, right? I was at one point at the very end of it, I was interviewing um a bunch of very famous and rich financial professionals for a book that I was starting to write that came out after I left and and when I was already back in academia called From Strength to Strength. It was a book about getting happier as you get older. And this woman is like a billionaire. I mean, unbelievable. Named firm, famous. And she's telling me about her achievements. I'm like, "Congratulations. That's great." She says, "I'm so unhappy." I said, 'Well, talk to me, sister. [laughter] What gives? She said, "My husband and I were married, but we're roommates. You know, I have adult kids with a cordial relationship. I think my employees are they do what I say, but I think they're afraid of me. I don't think my decision-m is crisp anymore. I don't love it, but I don't know what else to do." She said, "I go to the doctor, and the doctor says, "You need to stop drinking and get into the gym, but I keep drinking. I don't go to the gym." She said, "I when I grew up, I I went to church when I was a little girl, and I loved that. I always wanted that and I I don't go to church and I don't know why. And she says, "Professor, what am I supposed to do?" And I said, "You don't need a Harvard professor. You just wrote your own prescription. Take a souvenir in your company and step back. Go away with your husband and get to know him. Go move closer to your kids. Get into AA. Go to the gym. Go back to church. Look, it's right there." She says, "I know. I know. I know." I said, "So why not? Why didn't you do that? Why don't you?" She and she was silent for a long time and finally she said because I've always chosen to be special rather than happy. And that was like a knife to my heart because at that point in my life, me too. You know how many little league games I didn't go to? Look, little league games are boring. Let's be honest. But it's my kids. You know how many birthdays that I missed because I was trying to be special and successful and adored by people who don't care about me and and and and it and that specialness is that's that's an animal impulse that is hardwired into us. The moral aspiration is to choose happiness over that particular specialness. And that's the that's the significance question. Why does my life matter and to whom? and am I acting in accord and responsibly with my answer to that question? That's the interrogation. You do not disappoint, Professor Arthur Brooks. >> Awesome. [snorts] Those are great, great questions that I will be asking over and over and um that uh everyone should consider asking and uh trying to answer over and over for themselves. So, um I'm really moved. I uh me too. You know, I've been doing this podcasting thing a while now, and every once in a while, someone someone sits down here and and takes us someplace else. I I I knew you were that guy because we had shared the conversation before, but you you've given me so much to think about. I'm going to be listening to this and taking notes for for my own reasons. >> No, thank you. Thank you. What what an honor it is. Um you've blessed me again and again and again and again with the scientific knowledge you bring to it. But the soul you actually bring to the science, that's the magic formula >> that you actually bring to all your work. Well, thank you. Um, I have a couple of people in my life who are about I've always had a couple people in my life who are about 10 years older I really look up to. I look up to you. I really do. I I admire you and um it's a short list. Um, >> but it's a potent one. And I [clears throat] won't tell you who else is on camera who else is on there, but like it's an it's it's an all-star team. I aspire to to to be um more like you. And I say that with with like with all the respect that you're a human and you have your struggles, but I think it's important for >> uh anyone at a given developmental stage to look at people who've you know migrated the path more or less that they're on and but are ahead of them and get some some useful information. So I appreciate that. So whether you like it or not, you're a mentor to me. >> Thank you. Thank you. That means that means a world and and we're we're all on the path. We're all on the path. We're all we all have our life is you know that every religious tradition has pilgrimages almost every religious tradition. Um if you go across India you see mendicants that are actually walking toward a holy city. In the Christian faith we have we have three big pilgrimages to Jerusalem to Rome and to Santiago the compostella which is the Camino de Santiago. >> And and these pilgrimages are are metaphorical for what we're actually trying to do with our lives which is why they're they're such deeply mystical and spiritual experiences. I recommend that everybody go on a 500 mile walk across northern Spain from the from the French border to Santiago the complet do it on your knees did you >> I did not do it on my knees but I've done it just the last eight days two times because my wife won't do more than eight days and I love my wife but but the point is you have that what you realize is that that's a metaphor for your life >> we're walking through this life we're all learning on a pilgrimage Arthur is on a pilgrimage every single person watching us is on a pilgrimage and that means progress but that actually means the excellence that actually comes from making prog progress in little ways every single day and being open to to to metaphysical truths. >> So, it moves me a lot that that I could be, you know, some little stone church on the on the side of the road on your pilgrimage. Well, >> you absolutely are. And in sharing this with other people, you are to them, too. So, I did say I had one more question slashconsideration. So, I'm so inspired and and struck by what what you shared that I I think it would be um worth considering perhaps and don't feel obligated to answer here. Maybe we just leave it a cliffhanger and then and not answer on here or if you want you can. People would really benefit from hearing from you more in the context of structured sets of questions. I know you do this on your podcast and we've touched on some of that today. of uh your books and so forth, but it'd be fun to explore the possibility of doing a like a self exploration series or uh with you at some point and and we could figure out the venue if it's on here or it's elsewhere. But I if you'd be willing to consider like ways we could explore things um more fully, also selfishly so I can learn more from [clears throat] you. >> Likewise, my answer is yes. >> Awesome. >> Let's do it, man. Let's do it. Let's like let's get a band together. >> Fantastic. I love it. God bless you. God bless you too, Andrew. Thank you for all the things that you're bringing to me and for all the people who are watching. I'm honored to be part of this. >> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Arthur Brooks. To learn more about his work and to find links to his many excellent books, please see the show note caption. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerocost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a fivestar review. and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. 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