The “Always On” Leadership Trap

[music] >> Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Nonprofit Show. In the green room, uh my executive producer Kevin Pace said, "I need to watch this show, Julia, because you're stressing me out all the time." >> [laughter] >> So, we're going to take a little different tack on our conversation with Katie Warnick today. She's the president and founder of Staffing Boutique. We're going to be talking about stress and what happens with nonprofit leadership. Welcome back, my friend. >> Thanks for having me and doing this topic. >> It's really an interesting topic, something that I feel, Katie, that sometimes we're afraid to talk about. And so, I can't wait to get your ideas about this. You know, we have amazing partners that Katie Warnick and her team are one of our very first sponsors and partners, along with American Nonprofit Academy, Bloomerang, JMT Consulting, Third Sector Company, and Your Part-Time Controller. These are the folks that come together and join me. I'm Julia C. Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. More importantly, Katie Warnick. Katie, talk to us about Staffing Boutique, because you see a lot of interesting things behind the scenes. And I've got to believe you're seeing a lot of stress. So, kind of help paint the picture about what your business is and does, so that we can kind of level set this conversation today. >> this question. Awesome. Cool. So, I own a staffing firm. We specialize in doing staffing for the nonprofit sector and K-12 education space. I do anything from placing an admin assistant to a CFO, to a substitute teacher, to a director of development, alumni relations at all levels. Um a lot of maternity coverage positions, temp and permanent recruitment. I work in an industry where I am basically selling people as my product, right? So, any part of the day, you know, my phone dings with a text message and I am worst case scenario, you know, like what happened? What went wrong? Who didn't show up? Whose subway was late? It's literally constant constant stress just hitting me from all angles from, you know, 6:00 a.m. sometimes until 9:00 at night. Someone's getting fired. Someone didn't accept a job. Someone walked off a job. Someone, you know, stole a laptop. >> [laughter] >> Like someone had a major mental breakdown in Central Park and the cops are calling me. Like this is my life, you know, with so many temp employees on my payroll. Um someone didn't get paid, you know, there was an error in a paycheck. Um or my favorite conversation is the um "I think you messed up my pay." And I'm like, "Well, then I look and I look at the pay stub and I'm like, "No, that's accurate." "They took so much money out for taxes." I'm like, "Welcome to America working." But these are the conversations, texts, emails I I yield daily and it's, as you can imagine, quite stressful. >> Right. And I feel um the biggest things that imperil an organization and the biggest things that propel an organization are its people. Right? I mean, it seems to me, Katie, that this is like the starting point of stress. Um is that fair to say or is that just, you know, kind of a a heavy heavy lift? >> I think work is stressful. I think owning a business is stressful. I think being in senior leadership is stressful where so many people rely on you um to be strong, to always have the answers, and to kind of always have your door open to communicate with your staff. You know, it's extremely challenging. >> Yeah, it is. Okay, so let's start off with how stress actually impacts you. And what is it that you see, I mean, you're a woman who lives a life of stress? And if it's not too personal, what is what happens to you and then what do you see with all these people that you work with? >> Mhm. >> How How are you seeing stress impact them? >> Yeah, to be honest with you, you know, I started my own business when I was 29. I was fairly young, right? So, the typical stressors that I just mentioned have never, surprisingly, had any sort of impact with me. You know, I work in a very fast-paced industry. So, I am constantly rolling with the punches. I'm constantly putting out fires. I am very customer-service oriented. So, I cannot necessarily prevent these situations from happening, you know, on a day-to-day basis, but I can control how I resolve or my quick quick response time. It's never really had an impact on me. Um if you're someone who's close to me, you know that um in 2015, so a little over 10 years ago, my house actually went on fire with me in it. It was incredibly stressful event, to say the least. Um it really made me wake up to what was happening chemically within my body, stress response. I learned the term called cortisol, um adrenal glands at that point. And I would say that that was kind of like the pivot in my life, where I really started to pay attention to the physical effects of stress and not just my brain not shutting off. Cuz that's something that I could pretty much handle, you know, I take good notes, I >> [laughter] >> meditate, I could handle my brain not shutting off. But, when we started to talk about, you know, the clenching of the jaw and the literally like not not taking deep breaths to kind of calm myself down in stressful situations, I have this term that I call I feel like I'm cramering from Seinfeld. I feel like I'm just like at a constant jolting world and that happens often when I'm not rested. So um obviously as someone who's in their early or mid-40s at this point, you know, it's something that I think we're seeing a lot more of people talk about it in the health and wellness space and trying to regulate cortisol. I said that to one of my clients the other day a male and he was like, you know what? I'm trying to regulate my cortisol, too. It's kind of become the buzzword and you know cortisol is basically and again, I'm not a doctor. So it's it's kind of like your hormone stress response. Which is which is good. Like you're supposed to release cortisol when something stressful happens, but the problem is is if you're constantly in a stressful state you it basically shifts your whole day. It affects your sleep and then you're constantly in this almost like hamster wheel of stress and then on top of that, we live in America. We start our day with coffee. You know, we're not getting in like hot water. We're not thinking about And so I I describe it as just like a whole bunch of females in their 30s and 40s and 50s running around frantic. And then what does that look like in terms of your body? You're probably holding on to body fat that you don't understand why and you just chalk it up to oh, this is the time of my life. Well, no, it's it's probably because you haven't tested your hormones or done like a comprehensive blood panel and talked to maybe like a natural doctor to figure out how to get you on the same place. You know, so many doctors will just say well, this is this is perimenopause. Like that's the answer. Well, no, that's actually not the answer. You know, there's a lot of other things that you need to look at before we can just chalk it up to that, you know, are you sleeping well? Are you resting? Are you exercising? Are you getting sunlight exposure every day? Are you starting your day with a a cup of coffee? Like you shouldn't be doing that. Like studies show that you should be starting your your day like with coffee maybe after 4 hours, right? To let your kind of adapt to what it should be doing without, you know, basically stopping it from feeling tired, right? >> Right. Right. It's really an interesting thing because um we're we're dealing with a labor force that's already dealing with stress. You know, our clients, our environments, we work with things that are life and death. I mean, people die on our watches, um depending on where we are in the nonprofit sector. And this is serious stuff. And so, the stress I feel like we don't talk about it enough. We just watch people burn out. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that you're coming from a generation that is accustomed to that, and you know, as am I. And like, let's be honest, suicide rates are up, you know, no one really takes [clears throat] care of what's going on with the mental. And, you know, talking about it, I think having some sort of coach or person that specifically is on site at your organization could definitely help um deal with any sort of work that you're doing that's hands-on and dealing with traumatic issues. But then on top of that, you know, our legal climate is stressful. The news is stressful. Our podcasts are stressful. Like, no matter what side of the coin you're on, like, you're stressed. It's not easy right now. So, >> Yeah. >> we're really all kind of struggling. >> Yeah. I I love that you said that cuz I think that's very, very true. And I'm um engaged with more and more people that are saying, "I am I'm stepping away from social media. I'm stepping away from news, um even certain types of music, um and or limiting those hours." Like, you know, I have I I I have was at at AFP meeting not too long ago and somebody at the table was saying, "Yeah, I have a 5:00 hard stop to all these things. After 5:00 every night, I don't engage with, you know, media, with my phone, all these things to try and pull themselves down from the ledge that they were on during the day." And so, I thought that was really interesting and I wondered about that person like how bad it had to get before they realized that, you know. >> love that you said that. And I think that that's really smart and a really good strategy, but I wonder like if you're actually the CEO or you are a business owner, how realistic like is that, you know? I know that there is importance of winding down before bed and not and you know, and regulating your screen time and even like your light exposure, but um what's the reality of that? Like can you set those boundaries if you are a business owner? It's it's challenging. >> Well, I can't. I mean, I [laughter] >> Me neither. >> And I know I mean, I'm in in the West, you're in the East and I know that when I send you communications and even though I know I'm like, "Ah, damn, it's a 3-hour time difference." Um and I try to mitigate you know, how I'm pushing back out to you, you respond. And it's not like a a a packaged thing. It's not a canned response. You respond and so, um I want to talk a little bit about that harmful versus normal stress. How have you and what do you see within the industry um understanding what's harmful versus normal and how do we we differentiate between the two? I mean, is it because it it's two different things, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, stress to some capacity is important, you know, exercise on the body is basically stress on the body, which is an important facet. But if you are someone who and I I have a group fitness background, so if you're someone, you know, that takes these, you know, power group fitness classes like Barry's or um Orange Theory or F45, and you don't see changes in your body, it's because like you're basically peaking your cortisol like you're pushing your body so hard and then you're not resting for a full hour and you just had a terribly crazy day cuz you have a stressful job and it's like you're fishing for that cortisol release and you're equating like a good workout to sweat, but it's actually just damaging you. >> [snorts] >> So, to answer your question, you know, there are levels to stress, right? Like >> Yeah. >> I would say the stress that you bring home and still stresses you out means it's probably harmful stress. You know, if you're just in a stressful job and you like your job and you understand that there is good and in what you're doing, you know, manage it. Manage it accordingly. But, if you're coming home and you're complaining every night to your partner and you see it damaging your relationships and how maybe you view the world, you need to rethink what what you're taking on and possibly make a career shift. >> Yeah, that's that's really wise. Um and I think you're right. I think we need to understand that it has impact on those people around us. We don't talk about this enough. Um how have you yourself said no to toxic toxicity um and understanding what those stresses are because as a business owner and you're working in the HR staffing space, it seems to me like you have to be very diplomatic and you have to be very um empathetic. So, how do you how do you navigate this? >> It's tough, right? Cuz then I am the business owner. So, you know, I have to even pick and choose and think about what I what I do say no to. You know, there is a certain amount of empathy that I have to give anyone who's in a stressful situation and I allow any of my employees or anyone I'm working with, clients or candidates, to speak freely to me. I am always very careful of how much time I allow them to speak before I speak on the phone. I typically give them 10 minutes. And if they still have not come to some sort of understanding, self-reflection, or given me any grace, I then say, "I just gave you 10 minutes of my time. I heard you out. You're not, you know, coming to a resolution. You're not being realistic, and I'm going to document this conversation, and we can go ahead and and have a good night, you know?" That's just some something I have to deal with. That's just one one tool in the toolbox. But, you know, I don't have a solid plan that works every time, you know? Sometimes that could really backfire on me, you know? I have had vicious conversations and bad Google reviews, and it's just kind of, you know, I come from a place where hurt people hurt people. So, you know, I understand that. So, when you were trying to have a logical conversation with someone about the realities, you know, I give them that grace, and I just say, like, "Well, maybe we shouldn't work together, right?" >> It's interesting because you and I have a good 20 years of difference and separation, and I would say that the trajectory of my leadership, as I age, um I'm much more comfortable not being popular. >> [laughter] >> You know, I and it truly in the beginning of my career, you know, I was I wouldn't say I was a pleaser, but I I definitely was aware of how I was being perceived. I wanted to people to like me, and [clears throat] I tend to be a little bit more masculine and assertive, and I would tamp that down. >> Yeah. >> I would tamp that down and um now I'm pretty comfortable being >> Yeah. >> aggressive or being outspoken and not And and maybe it's like it's confidence, I'm not sure. >> Sure. >> But uh it it has really Honestly, it's liberated me from that. >> Yeah. I would say that I'm I would say that I've never struggled with that. I've always been honest and you know, I always say I'm not everybody's cup of tea. You're going to either love doing business with me or hate doing business with me and I'm okay. You know, but I'm going to tell you the truth and I'm going to tell you like I see it. And yeah, I tend to, you know, feel like I have a little bit more testosterone running through me. Um you know, I tend to get a lot along with um males more than I do females. It's always been um a thing even since I'm a child, to be honest with you. >> Yeah, me too. I'm exactly in the same boat. [laughter] I I No, and it's so it's very interesting to have this conversation because I think a lot of times in the nonprofit sector we cultivate this this sense of empathy and that we're in service, right? And so we tend to get walked all over on until we just blow up or, you know, we leave the job. >> Yeah. >> And I I feel, Katie, like that you mentioned this at the top of the show that you do see people that just leave the job, they just walk off because they've gotten to that point where they can take no more. >> Mhm. >> And it's an interesting aspect about understanding yourself, understanding what you will take, but then also communicating that. >> Sure. >> It's It's not just a function of living through it. It's it's communicating what your values are, your standards. >> I love that you circled it back to that because then we have to go back to all the conversations you and I have had about the Gen Z Gen Z in the workforce. And you This is a generation that is leading with this idea these ideas about mental health first and how they're feeling. And so when I'm sitting here saying that this past year has been the worst year for me in terms of the workforce and the struggles that we've had, I have to, you know, circle it back to them cuz I have, you know, a whole generation of people who say this is not worth my stress. I'm quitting this job. I would rather prioritize my mental health in my day and only work from home and only take remote jobs jobs. And I'm I'm here trying to sell the workforce. I'm in a real conundrum. >> Yeah, it's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. You and I have talked about this is like one of those super unique times where we have four different generations in the workplace working at the same time. Lots of changes, lots of different attitudes and behaviors and work environments. Um I can't imagine how you have had to not only deal with this, witness it, and then articulate back to your team and to your community, "Hey, this is what's going on. This is how we work this." Um I I want to ask you about this added issue of AI and how it's working inside of this ecosystem. Um yay team, bad team, I mean What are What are you seeing here? >> What is going on, right? So, you know, it's interesting. It's It's just really interesting. Um you know, I find that I can zip through some work using AI, Claude, Grok, whatever I want to do, very quickly. So, for instance, you know, I've in the back of my head said I wanted to pull all the signed contracts I have had over the years. So, this is what, 17 years worth of contracts? And I wanted to compile it into a list. And I basically put it into a zip folder and then I put it into Claude and it made me a full list about the ones that were executed, the ones that were never executed, and it grouped them by and I was like, this has been on my mind for 2 years, this project. [laughter] And the fact that I thought to myself, I think I could just put this into AI with one zip file. This was crazy. This was PDFs, this was words, this was nightmare. It did it what, in maybe 10 minutes it took? So, you know, that alleviated my stress tremendously [laughter] in that aspect. I am someone again who owns my business and I pride myself on getting back to every everyone within 24 hours. And since AI has become a thing, I'm sure you can attest to this, it's like I get so much more spam. And it's not just spam, but I'm on these lists as a CEO, right? So, I'm getting so much, you know, software info, etc. So, it's made my inbox just not manageable. And I am not ready to go to an executive assistant, man. I've talked about this before, but I did find an app cuz I was stressed out about this. Um, I got fed an app or an ad for Fixer AI, which basically, you know, interfaces with my Outlook and it groups all of the marketing emails, and then my meeting updates, and then like what I have to respond to, and then just things that are FYI'd. And I will tell you at the end of the day, I have about 150 marketing emails. That if I hadn't downloaded that, you know, I would be having to sift through that throughout my work day. And on top of that, I get about 250 emails a day. It's It's really insane. It's cut down a lot of of my stress, to be honest with you, but it's also because of AI that I'm even having that stress. >> Right, right. It's I think it's an app You know, I witnessed that, too, um, with our business and with a nonprofit show. Um, the amount of inquiries and things that are coming at at us is just crazy. And And we were ranked number one podcast in the philanthropic environment by a very important uh media tracking company. And so, that just opened up the floodgates. And again, it's an opportunity, but it's a stressor. >> Yeah. >> It's a stressor because I'm not able to keep up. Um and and I'll witness to that, you know, publicly. It's It's really really been a challenge. Um So, yeah, I think it's important in in is as having part of this conversation. >> I want to kind of end with this cuz I know that this is something you've been really good at. Carving out time for exercise, not more work. And when I was preparing for this conversation and I saw this, I was like, "Holy moly, I do that. I carve out more time so I can do more work." >> Exactly. Yeah. And I And I'm Believe me, I'm not perfect. And again, I I worked in fitness part-time for like 15 or 16 years. So, fitness is a huge priority. It's part of my life. It's a habit for me. I love it, you know? And when I don't work out, I pretty much have a bad day. I will always say that. I try to sweat every day. Um but the reality is is I'm If I'm trying to manage my cortisol, you know, I really should be getting up and getting sunlight exposure on my eyes for the purpose of circadian rhythm like as soon as I wake up. Um If I do that, that would be a great day. If I can get up, get a walk in, work, and then go train later in the afternoon. But the reality of that is extremely hard with operating a business. So, you know, I have to pick and choose what mornings I can walk or what evenings I can walk, you know? Expo Again, exposing your eyes to uh sunlight is extremely important um [snorts] for circadian rhythm. But then on top of that, you know, like really making sure that I get in a workout in the morning, a good sweat, and that makes my day go smoother. I forget who it was. I think it was Jeff Bezos recently said he doesn't take meetings until 10:00 a.m. or after 10:00 a.m. And it's exactly because of that. He wants to have an easy morning. He wants to get a workout in and I try to prioritize that because if I don't if I don't work out I I don't have a good day. >> Yeah, I love that you're that self-aware and that you've put that into practice. I think that's really brilliant and I hope folks watching or listening to the nonprofit show today can start kind of take that in that it's not a nice to have, it's a must have. >> Yeah, it's >> If we're going to if we're going to be strong leaders and of of of service, we got to serve ourselves first. >> Yes, I've always said strong body, strong mind and if you're someone who doesn't work out or you know, it makes you anxious to go to the gym, you know, just starting out walking it goes a long way, you know, 30 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes after dinner, you're already in a good place if you're doing that. But again, if you start to Google, you know, things about circadian rhythm or, you know, um cortisol levels or anything like that, you're going to see some good tips on how to incorporate exercise into your life, start to change your habits. >> You know, one of the things that I've really enjoyed from you, I don't think I've ever told you this, but I I really like some of your video reflections on LinkedIn and you're walking. You know, and and it's like I can see like during the winter you're all cuz you're in New York, you're all bundled up and you're walking at a really fast pace. >> Yeah. >> And you're talking about really important things and it's like I'm in the mind with you, right? I'm like hearing you but you're moving and I see the buildings around you and the environment. >> Yeah. >> I think it's been really cool to see that, you know. >> Yeah, I mean, it's it's the reality. I live in a really urban area, I'm walking around my house and this is this is literally my daily life, you know, like I walk every morning and and I walk more in the winters and we had a really brutal brutal winter, you know, put on my snow suit even when it wasn't snowing just to get in my steps. >> I love it. I think this is great. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. It's been a little different, but I feel like you're that person that has this unique and challenging viewpoint because you you're watching the system, you're engaged in the system, but with all these different clients you have in these different types of leaders in these different types of situations, and we can all agree this is a tough time in the nonprofit sector. It's a tough time in the educational sector, and to to kind of re- step back and reflect on what it's doing to us because at the end of the day, um and you said it perfectly, you know, strong mind strong strong body strong mind. If we're not at our best, how can we be our best leaders, right? I mean >> We can't. We can't. >> We can't. And then we just I feel like we just pull everybody down around us, or we're we can't lift them up, right? And so it's such an interesting conundrum. >> Yeah, like [clears throat] I said, I feel like we're a lot of people are just working at this frantic state cuz they are just so stressed out and they don't know what to do. You know, you kind of feel like you're buzzing or you're not sleeping and you know, your mind is just not shutting off, and I feel like a lot of people need to do some self-reflection there and see how they are literally living their life and what they're taking in, and I I always say this, you know, your um your diet just isn't isn't just what you eat, right? So it's like your your headphone exposure, you know, the people around you, what are you allowing? And we touch on this a little bit before, but you know, like I'm someone who loves podcasts. Like I listen to podcasts all the time about health and fitness and and politics and the market, and I'm just I'm kind of taking a break from podcasts cuz I found that you know, I wasn't just being in my own thoughts. So you know, I started to work out the past 6 months without headphones on. I'm trying to walk without headphones on just because I'm starting to realize like being so informed is not necessarily the best thing right now. >> Interesting. What about music? Do you >> No. >> No. That doesn't like like calming music or >> No, nothing. I'm a big I'm a big into like Willie Nelson, Dolly Parton, Waylon Jennings. So, I that's kind of my car music, but no, if I'm working out or if I'm walking, I don't listen to music either cuz you're you're kind of numbing your thoughts, I feel like, you know, you're just feeling the music. And rest in peace, Dolly. >> Oh my god, I know. I know. I know. Amazing humanitarian, amazing philanthropist. >> Yeah, for sure. My sister texted me, "I'm taking the afternoon off. Dolly died yesterday." And I was like, "What?" She broke the news. [laughter] >> Yes, she broke the news. You know, >> We were trying to go see her in Vegas the past two times that she announced shows, but she canceled. And she has her Broadway show coming I think October 7th, so we're going to go see um see that. >> Awesome. You know, I think that's one of the gifts of her passing is that I think there will be tons of people that are shocked at her philanthropic uh activity and levels that were very quiet, you know. >> Yes. >> She didn't really blow those up where she could have. And I think this whole Vanderbilt uh piece of the science and the technology behind the COVID vaccine, which is a vaccine structure that is being used for cancer treatment. I mean, there's a lot of things that she did um and I think it's just going to start to come out. >> Yeah. >> like wow, on top of her musical prowess, but um yes, thank you >> I I didn't even know that she was such a philanthropist until like maybe the past year and a half. You're right, a lot of it was kind of under the radar and she just did it. >> Yes, very much. It's it's super cool. Well, you are super cool. Thank you so much Katie Warnick for joining us. It's been a different conversation and I love getting into your mind. I think these are things that maybe you and I and others have had privately but to come forth on the nonprofit show and talk about them publicly has been really profound and so thank you very much. Katie Warnick, she's the founder and president of Staffing Boutique, one of our trusted partners here on the nonprofit show and somebody who's really somebody to watch. What Katie gets to observe and report back on is fascinating and so thank you so much for being a part of our world and helping us to understand what's going on. >> You bet. You bet. I'm glad that we had some fun with this episode and went a little bit off off spec with our topic. >> Yeah, I think it's really powerful and I think it's a big part of what we need to be talking about Katie and so it's been really fun. Our presenting sponsors along with the Staffing Boutique include American Nonprofit Academy, Bloomerang, JMT Consulting, Third Sector Company, Your Part-Time Controller and Martus. They are a new sponsor of ours. As we end each and every episode we leave with this mantra and today it dovetails perfectly to what we've been talking about and it goes like this, to stay well so you can do well. >> [music]