The AfD's biggest win ever: what Saxony-Anhalt tells us about Germany — and Europe

It's really great to wake up in [snorts] Germany in 1920. >> Hello. Hello. Hello and welcome. On Sunday, the hardright alternative for Germany won the state election in Zakonyi Anhalt with 43.8% of the vote. That's the best result that the AFD has ever had anywhere. They've doubled their share in 5 years. The CDU, the Christian Democrat party, which has run that state for 24 years, has been cut in half down to 17%. And people really turned out to achieve this result. 78% up from 60% last time. This wasn't apathy that gave the AFD this victory. This was the opposite. The AFD finished three seats short of a majority. So, no one yet knows who's going to govern, but the shock has already reached Berlin and Brussels, and it isn't going away in a hurry. So, what does this mean for Germany? What does it mean for the left? What does it mean for those of us who are watching this play out from outside? Is this the new shape of things to come? To find out, I'm joined by Juliana Zita, my colleague, DN25, host of Counterstream, the show on this same YouTube channel based in Germany. Juliana, welcome. What the hell happened on Sunday? >> Well, thanks for having me, Mean. Um, I mean, what happened? I think it's uh it's not so shocking what happened. I think um it was clear for quite some time that the FD is getting stronger and stronger and I mean the the polls have already shown that the FD will be very strong in Zaxonhal and then the result was exactly what was expected. What surprised me is the reaction to it much more than than the result to be honest because um you know that then suddenly everyone is shocked and and trying to find uh reasons why this happened and I mean the reasons the conclusions that people have are very um different um if you see but I often think that people get lost of it in in in find in seeing it very black and white and I think that the bigger complexity of why this happened gets missed along the way. >> Why why does this election matter more than the ones before it where the AFD has grown or had good results? I mean, first it's it's kind of an election that sits right now at a point in Germany where you can see that the current government is as is unpop unpopular like any government was before like Frit Mads as a chancellor with 84% of people in Germany saying that they don't support him. This is quite like um I mean it's also showing how the mood towards current politics in Germany is. I think this is why this election matters so much. Um and also there has been kind of the feeling that um okay the FD is getting stronger. They had big numbers before. We saw it also in the general election that they were quite strong. But I think everyone just thinks this will go away [laughter] and every time they they multiply their numbers uh and this is quite a strong result to be honest like 43% I think they missed a majority vote by three or four seats which is really really close to having um to being able to govern without any coalition. So I think this is where the shock is that everyone thinks >> up until now you can avoid the FD because they will always have to find a partner for to build a government but now they're coming close to an ultimate point where they will not be dependent on other parties and this is the nightmare scenario in Germany right because up until now everyone's like some nobody will go into a coalition with them and what if they don't need the coalition that is a big question >> well let's look at the the voters here, the the people that turned out for AFD, as we said, turnout jumped from 60% to 78%. Who came out that hasn't been voting? Um, I mean, I think if I mean, I looked at the voting numbers in Azak and of course there are a couple of thousand people from other parties going to the RFD, but the majority votings which are new for the RFD in Saxon Unheal are non voters. It's 170,000 non voters. um which is a huge number and then you have 80,000 from the CDU for example and that alone I mean that that shows where these 44% come from and to mobilize non voters is in my opinion something that no other party has been able to do in in Germany so far they are kind of creating this euphoria amongst people who have given up on politics previously Well, I read that half of the self-employed voted for AFD and nearly half of the nearly half of the salaried employees. Is this something new? Um I think this is uh this is the doing of the CDU to be honest for sure because the CDU was the party that people elected when they believed they are kind of like the the experts on economy also self-employment you know the party that stands for finances for economy for uh the serious party so to say uh while the left has no no idea how business works. uh the SPD used to be the workers party used to be the party that that stood for workers rights also not necessarily a party that is uh that is very attractive for business people so I think the those people voting IFD is primarily because they stop believing that the CDU is competent enough to um to handle their needs but people in Germany do not see any outcome of the politics that that the SDU government is is reaching >> so it's a it's a trust trust issue but but what has changed materially in these people's lives to move them the people that you're describing >> I think substantially nothing for many people the cost of living crisis is uh is getting worse uh wages are too low rents are too high infrastructure in Germany is in decline then you have ultimately every week you have some new announcement of uh big German companies uh um firing ing tens of thousands of people. So from the perspective of somebody like say common people that read newspapers a bit here on the internet are not even so deep into politics and they see the outcome in their own lives um and everything seems to be falling apart in Germany which is kind of true because the industry is is shrinking. Look at the automobile industry for example that has missed any kind of innovation over the last 10 years and they were holding on to u to to to their concept of creating cars until the bitter end. Now they're far behind in in technology compared to China and other car companies. And now now that frustrates people that frustrates people that previously believed that Germany has some cornerstones that is kind of known for and if you see that decline and you have somebody like Merittz who's preaching we have to get this country again forward but then his solutions to to to these problems is insulting people like you're working too less people in Germany must work harder people in Germany are lazy. That doesn't help to be called lazy all the time by your chancellor. And he has no empathy. Like every interview that he has given in the past months is a catastrophe. >> But he's deattached. So if if if somebody criticizes him, he's like, I don't know what people want. >> Yeah. But go on, go on. Sorry. Go on. >> No. And that makes the IFD stronger ultimately because the IFD understood that that frustration is something they can pick up on and they don't have a track record of like any other established party. I mean the the link has also no track record of any governmental politics because they were never in government to be fair. But the FD is currently the party where a lot of ideologies don't matter. People come around for the problems they see. I don't see the FD so much as a magnet for ultimately for fascist ideology. It's a magnet for frustration right now. >> Well, what are the what is the FD actually saying though? because it wasn't just all frustration with Matts and the AFD >> criticizing Matts when I I I forget where I read it, but the number one concern um for most AFD voters according to what I read was immigration. So, how does the AFD scoop up those concerns that you've been outlining with this anti-immigration message and turn it into getting people to vote for? So I think with migration in in in general their racism they're a bit scattered with their messaging because if I if you talk to AFD voters which I do often because I I live in a small village where you are close to each other so you talk um and if for me it's interesting I like to talk to these people and try to understand where we meet and where we don't and what I get from people when it comes to migration now telling it from the side of somebody who votes ID, they go I think they put their finger exactly into the wound, which is we do not want criminal migrants, right? We do not want criminal refugees. >> Um, >> like for before the general election, you had kind of like these uh attacks uh with a with a car in in in in Berlin. Then you had uh the incident um at the LGBTQ parade at the pride parade. So people say CC there is a problem. So I want the criminals out. So for people it's kind of like there are many people in this country which want to harm the way we live and I do not want them as part of society. So if I have am in a conversation with these people I tell them well that's fine. I get that point. I mean who wants criminals? But we have a justice system for that. So that should function in the first [clears throat] place. >> But are you sure that the IFD is is is ending the story there. How? Because if I go into the program and I read remigration, remigration says something completely different. It says you have a German passport, >> they don't specify how long you have been in Germany or whether you're criminal. And it means I'm taking away your citizenship and I'm sending you home. And then the people are kind of in denial about that point and they're like, "Yeah, but they don't mean that >> because >> they're sending you back to your country of origin." Yeah. >> Exactly. So, and then people say, "I don't mean you because I'm also a migrant, right?" So then I don't mean people like you. You're perfectly integrated. And I'm like, "You don't mean me, but what if they mean me?" And this is where >> where perception clashes a bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I'm trying to No, I but I'm trying to understand this you know to what extent you think in this case in Germany that the the views on immigration are the are a kind of proxy for this wider economic males. If you look at uh different um I mean crime is also a good example it it looks like overly migrants are causing crime which is statistically not true. So, a lot of these things you can debunk with facts, but >> but every time it happens and there's a migrant involved that that gets a much greater share of the voice and the the viewer the viewer or the reader is left with the idea that well, it's all migrant crime. >> Exactly. And and then and then this develops into um they they get treated better than I do because I'm unemployed or I'm going to lose my job. Everything is I cannot pay anything anymore. Like my my life standard is shrinking where I have the feeling that they get a free pass for not doing anything. That's kind of like what what has stuck in some people's head. And then to be honest, if in a conversation about that, I'm like, but the migrants are not causing your problem, >> you know. So if you want u higher wages and you want uh better pricing with rent, they are not your target. the target should be what causes these problems. So in my opinion, people get redirected to hate on migrants while ultimately never addressing the right people for the problems they have. So So this misinformation campaign doesn't only benefit the AFD, it also benefits the government. But how much of that is because the the things that those people are feeling that those AFD voters are not they're they're not hearing their concerns echoed in the concerns in in the in the the platforms and the proposals of the Democratic parties. >> How much of that is that? I mean I I I want to sort of shift the emphasis towards what were the other choices on offer here and what were the things that they were not saying or what were they saying in the wrong way [snorts] that provided really no alternative for those people to vote for the FD. I think it's more about trust to be honest because um the established parties so to say uh have broken the trust of the people and it's really it really comes down to I don't think that AFD voters care about the solutions. I think they want to see political will and right now the FD is good at at at at least coming across as having the political will and it's also due to their their very aggressive rhetoric and so on while the other parties are still playing within you know the established system also with their wording they're like >> we need a better health care system what does it mean you like if I hear from the SP we need a better healthare system I'm like you're sitting in government for the last two decades most of the time in a coalition with the CDU. How are you going to tell me we need this or that if you are the one who missed to do anything about it? So there is no trust >> in in the established parties and I think it starts there and it's not about whether they provide better solutions or not. It's just I don't believe you will deal with it. I don't believe you care about us and you've shown it through your politics. >> So, it's that thing where people just the trust isn't there at all and people just want to press a button that goes like you. you. Let's blow all this up. Okay. But then let's look at the left because the I mean I hear what you're saying about the CDU and the SPD, but the left-wing party, they had their worst ever result in that state. What happened there? And why is the left so unable in Germany [clears throat] so unable to to have this kind of outsider status that apparently there's a big appetite among the electorate for >> I mean okay if we because we are here in eastern Germany and I think when it comes to eastern Germany we have to have a slightly different analyzis than in western Germany to be honest because and I've thought about this um quite quite a bit which I realized that eastern Germany when uh when the when the wall fell, they came out of a socialist communist system, right? So the most of the time Eastern Germany voted left, but ultimately left politics never got into government in in the in the whole of Germany like the left never had any power. So the moment the [clears throat] walls fell, Eastern Germany has never witnessed any kind of form of left politics ever again. And um I don't think that people disagree with with the position of the link or have disagreed with the position of link. It's just so frustrating to vote for a party that has ultimately never the chance to get in power. And ultimately this divide between East and Western Germany has always been in place. Even if you see like poverty in Eastern Germany, chances, wages, everything was unequal. And now Eastern Germany comes to a point where no matter what they do, no matter what they elect, their position never changes. And I think that the left party now they have started the last two years to go doortodoor in Eastern Germany. And you can people being like they care about us, but I think that there is an opportunity missed already to get these people, you know, to really reach the people and give them the feeling that um that there is kind of a political home. You know what I mean? It's kind of like a bit too late in my opinion. Well, I I I mean, I hear what you're saying, but I'm trying to understand why is the left so organizationally outmatched by the AfD? What kind of machinery? What is the AfD doing to reach all these people? Some of whom, as we've been talking about, may be willing to vote for an outsider party, maybe the left, not all, of course, but some, especially many of the people who are voting now for the first time, which we've seen is a big group. So what is that asymmetry between the AFD? What are they doing that's working so well organizationally? >> I think to be fair we have to acknowledge that the AFD has a ton of money like they get um >> they get a lot of big big donations. I I don't I think just within the last two years they got like uh 56 million euro donations which is which is a lot of money to to to spend on campaigning and and stuff. But when it comes to strategy I think they've done something very very smart which is I mean look where the FD is strong. The FD is strong not in the city so much. they are strong um in smaller cities in villages etc. And if you look at what their strategy is is they do a lot of community work. They will show up at a kindergarten and u do kind of like oh we will we will do crowdfunding because you have this issue and they they >> the FD has built itself over 11 years now. 2013 they were founded in just >> exactly as a EU party. They that was kind of like where they started. It was >> it was uh their core issue was the EU back then and then >> so it's community work. It's it's offline stuff. [snorts] >> It's like like Greece's Golden Dawn was helping old ladies in areas where with a lot of migrants to take money from the bank and so on. um and and the word got around and and trust is built that way. >> I think to be to to be fair, if you we have to be honest about this point, if you join a leftist group, even a local group, they will be more um principled. Like if you come in and you have an edgy opinion, people will say to you, >> "We don't say that here." Right? The FD is a party where you can be >> whatever you want. They don't care. You can come in and be homophobic. They can come in like openly, but you can be also >> you can be also homosexual. I mean, Khalis Vital herself is homosexual, right? There's this paradox with the party where they have open arms like they they understand that the numbers are more important that having the the the numbers on the ground are more important than being very principled about their stance. This is how they can have the super radical wing which is super fascist and they can have on the other end people who would ultimately distance themselves from fascism and be like but I still found a home here. So this is the paradox of the idea where everyone can coexist as of now. Of course, I don't think this is a long-term strategy that will work for them, but >> I hear from a lot of people there. I can say what I cannot say elsewhere. >> Okay, I I understand when it comes to views that are very bigoted, right? But there's a big spectrum of views that perhaps don't go all the way to bigotry, but that if I understand what you're saying, the left is a little left in Germany anyway, is at least is quite intolerant towards. Am I reading you right? >> Is that is that an issue? >> Or is it only just bigotry? Is it only pure bigots that they're rejecting and and they're not too worried about language and what have you and someone using the wrong term? I'd say okay I'd say there are many things that are not a priority for me like and you can uh if I if somebody says to me I do not like let's say migrants okay if somebody says to me I do not want criminal migrants you can hear this and hear the sentence as it comes out and say well true I don't want criminals either >> or you can take this and be like um >> oh >> racist >> something snaps and you're But this is the prestep to racism to say that you know and I think this is what we have been doing as the left is taking something instead of engaging with what has been said is to get ahead of ourselves and bring the debate to oh you are at the early stages of racism and people you know think I'm not you know so this is this is what I mean >> and of course as has been proved again and again and again what happens when you have that kind of exchange is that the other person just switches off, disconnects, and will not listen to anything you follow up with uh after that and they'll probably go and vote for the AFD, which was what they were planning to do maybe in the in the first place. So, yeah, I I hear you. Um and that's something that I I >> an example by the way when the pride incident happened the link or like a local group of the linker or a local branch in Berlin came out with a statement about it and uh and and the statement was highly criticized because it didn't acknowledge what has happened at all. like there was a there was a um um extremist attack of a person that has done the attack out of um you know extremist Islamic u um ideology and they tried kind of to >> to bury that under the carpet and there people get like >> why are you acting like there isn't I mean every religion has radical groups let's be fair like >> so if [clears throat] some something fundamentally irritical happens and it comes from a fundamentalist uh Islamic view. Acknowledge that and this gaslighting is part of the problem in my opinion. >> Well, that just damages trust as you said um because people are like well that's not what happened and you can't acknowledge that. We're not saying that everyone uh every migrant is creating a problem but this particular migrant did >> and for that reason um okay let me look at one other thing is about this uh idea of censorship uh because there's been this response over the years in Germany I think for a long time this firewall idea where the other parties work together to try to keep out the AFD or farright parties. Um, I'm guessing that that's not working, [laughter] but I I just I want your comment on what you think of the wisdom of that strategically. >> I it it is bit like um there is a problem and uh if I don't see it anymore, it's gone. uh that that's kind of like the approach here because if you see that society has taken a shift you cannot just say um don't deplatform all of it and then uh and then great I think where the only and this comes this is this is where again it's all generalized I think if you have as societies some standards where you're like okay if somebody comes on TV and starts saying very racist and very offensive of things that should count for everyone like where you're like okay maybe the moderator can stand up and be like you please leave my show like you know what I mean it's there are things that are offensive to the to the degree of >> um I don't know how it's called in English right now but where you're kind of like putting >> well hate speech >> yeah hate speech like where where you're putting a group of people or a person in danger even >> inciting violence against a group of people >> exactly >> that's wrong I I think there we are all agreeing that there is a limit >> but if you see that something in in society has developed so far that for a lot of people has become a reality I think disengaging uh in dialogue is the wrong way of course and counseling >> is exactly that burning bridge part which I don't like about it because you have >> burning what sorry >> sorry >> exactly that what the burning bridge I'm sorry. I think you said Berlin. Okay, go on. Go on. Sorry to interrupt me. >> Burning Berlin. Yeah. >> Yeah. No, you're burning bridges basically and then you people push them onto onto the side and they just get stronger because now you have tacked them their basic human rights and if free speech basic right, it's a basic right. You know, it's you can switch it whenever you're uh >> I completely agree. I mean, you should challenge bad ideas instead of trying to push them away, which ends up just making them stronger and people get more curious. That's human nature and we don't seem to have got that. We don't seem to understand this basic thing of human nature that it plays into the hands of conspiracy theorists. It makes the s the censored look like, you know, rebels. Um there's another point that uh was written in an article uh that I read last night from from Freddy Deborah. He's a he's a leftist Marxist American writer and he said that another reason why um this kind of censorship is utterly unstrategic is that um it stops people from being able to well I'll quote you what he said. He said, "When you try to quarantine bad political ideas, you perversely do them the favor of keeping them from being implemented and failing." >> So what he's saying is that by stopping AFD from ever getting into power, no one can see how ridiculous and unimplementable their ideas are. So they never get tested, so they become more attractive. What do you think about that? >> [clears throat] >> Well, there I'm a bit split on it to be honest because the strategy of they need to come into power and fail. I think there is a danger to it because um and essentially this is a thought that I had from somebody else's uh analyzis recently which I liked because the idea is the IFD let's say they come into like they get a mayor place in a small village right and they fail but the mayor then goes well it's not my issue because I'm an IFD mayor the the next political level will not engage with me So it's the funding that we're not having. Then they come into a German state for example into government like in Zaken Anhal they will like let's say they will have uh they would get into government um have uh the minister president um I don't know if there is an English equivalent word for the position but uh they would fail >> then they would say well it's because of Berlin it's because the government refuses to work with us >> if they come into the government and failed, they would say it's the you, it's the you is the problem. So there is a lot of space for them to fail and people still not being like, no, they failed because they suck, but they failed because everyone is fighting them. >> And then you have a quote from somebody from the AFD themselves is, well, the other parties have to be reelected every time, but we just need to be elected once, >> you know. So, so yes, while maybe the strategy might work, I don't think it >> because this is not exactly >> how I mean this is like the ideal scenario, right? You vote them once, people are like ah disappointed, now they're gone. I don't think this will play out like that to people. I I see what I see what you mean cuz then they fail and they blame it on uh other groups and and and then they basically end up uh getting more attractive because people people are like well why the hell why the hell can't they you know the other groups why are they doing it? Is that because of the firewall? Is that because they're being censored? Is that because they're not you know the people are not showing up to meetings because they're getting the cold shoulder? Whatever. Um okay I I get it. >> I mean look at Trump. It's the deep state >> right for Trump. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. [laughter] >> Fighting from somewhere. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Um I don't know when this video is going to be put out. We're recording now on Friday, September 11th, but there's another election uh this Sunday also in Eastern Germany, Nidita Zaken, a municipal election. And then on the 20th of September uh two elections, one the House of Representatives election in Berlin and Meckllinburgg for Pomman election to the land parliament it's called on um on the 20th. Tell me about how it's looking. Could these be more AFD victories in the pipeline? And also um tell us about Marriage 25, our own party, and what they they're going to be doing in the Bman election on 20th of September. Um well yeah I mean neidaxa which is a a western German election. >> Forgive me western German election. Okay go on. So, so AFD in the west now >> um I mean the AFD is yet not uh is is weaker in the west for sure still uh the numbers are still not not great because they are polling at 20% right now but you can see okay the yesd is polling at 25% DCU 25% I think is um so while in western Germany the RFD is also rising bit by bit but it's a way slower process mechan um on the other hand um looks again nightmarish compared to western Germany which is with 36% polling right now. Uh so you can see the these are states which are um historically also more u less conservative so to say but the interesting bit is that that it doesn't matter like the FD is capable to surpass in the the established party in a conservative state and the established party in a in a social democrat [clears throat] state. This is what I mean with if people think that the IFD is just about some particular ideology, it's really people from any walk of life and from any political background >> um switching to IP and I believe that also here we will see a lot of non voters. >> I I I think so with the numbers out of Zax Unheard that will make >> Okay. Well, we'll see if that prediction comes true. Um, but then let me take a step back. If what would you say to someone watching this in in Athens or or London or anywhere else outside Germany and thinking, well, that's that's happening in Germany. It's not happening to us. Well, I I mean I think that there are there are cases in Europe where we have seen um parties that we would substantially kind of put in the right rightwing or fascist uh category like in Netherlands, >> Austria, Holland, Netherlands. >> So I don't think that um that that's a German problem at all. Um >> get in general, I don't think fascism is a German problem. by the way, it it kind of historically turned out to be just a German problem, but look at Italy, for example, you know. So, um, so it's it's it's not um it's not something that you shouldn't pay attention to, especially if you look at the EU because this development in Germany becomes very very dangerous for this European Union project. Um, as of now, you might hear the politicians saying, "No, no, we're fine." And or you have the example of Maloney who really strongly started with anti-EU and then ended up being quite comfort comfortable in the EU structures. >> Um this is where people are saying maybe well they they might say they would get out of the EU but they won't. But the FD is like a surprise package. You will not know what they will do. And I think if you have enough leverage in the EU and you you are kind of well positioned, you might be that's I gain more from staying inside of it. But if you don't, then there will be no problem in in in campaigning for Germany to exit the EU for example and that ultimatively will destabilize all of Europe. then the European project is basically dead which is already very dead >> opinion but but it will have uh huge consequences on on the rest of the continent for sure. >> Tell me about our own party me 25 and what they're going to be doing in Berlin on the 20th September. >> So we have direct candidates in in Berlin um and they're currently campaigning. Um I mean Berlin is a very special place I find in Germany because for the for the past uh 2 years alone what has been unfolding there in terms of activism, police brutality, uh the oppression of uh of voices around uh Gaza and Palestine. Um so then you have also the the voting on expropriation of uh of the big uh housing company which was ultimately never fulfilled. So I think uh Berlin is a hot pot for a lot of things um that are um well that are going wrong currently. So I think what this election in Berlin currently is is a very activistic election in my opinion. It's uh I love the campaign that we have. It's it's rhetorically it's um Benim brand it's it's kind of like rhetorically more harsh. Uh >> Berlin is burning. >> Yeah. Um so >> I think the slogan is something along like that. Um but I hope that we will at least get one candidate in but I think it it's difficult because the link is quite strong in Berlin as well to be fair and uh they are ahead in the polls still which is I'd say even if we are another party for me it's still good news if if left politics is um is standing its ground I think that's not a bad thing at all. Okay. I I want to leave um with the and sort of a look at the left and some kind of actionable ideas here. What would you say is one thing that the left should stop doing tomorrow to avoid this kind of or to push back against the kinds of victories um from the farright party that we've been discussing in this call? I think I think we have to stop um to stop talking about the world as we wanted to be and be more engaged with the reality of why things are happening. I that I said it already. I think the left is getting ahead of itself a lot a lot of times. And while I get the frustration of people and maybe also tune down the frustration a bit because you know frustration and fear doesn't help. It clouds the mind and then every discussion you go with somebody that votes AFD you will bring kind of your whole frustration about the political system into that discussion and you will make people only push them more into the IFD direction. Um I think we have to sit down and kind of maybe not on the part of politics as in policies because the policies are fine and all this stuff that that's not what we are lacking but I think in terms of what personality the left has that is kind of where we have to question ourselves how we show up in the world as people who have empathy as pe I mean Mamani is a very good example in my opinion you you cannot M >> you cannot get around mentioning him when you're talking about what you can do right in my opinion. Well, because it's a recent success story >> because he's authentic, you know. Yes, that that is a big part of of what makes him he's human and authentic and he deals the things uh not in a predictive way where sometimes I'm listening to an interview with him and while maybe five politicians before him I would have predicted what they would have said he's not so predictable to be honest and that makes him interesting for people with the left still here in Germany or in Europe you still have this problem of I've heard I myself think often I've heard this so many times you know it's like a >> like what like what >> like it doesn't matter what we're talking about we we're like we need more solidarity we need more this we need more that >> so general kind of uh platitudes political platitudes >> because you show solidarity you don't proclaim solidarity that's >> you know well you mentioned Mandani I mean one thing I find very interesting about Mandani is that he doesn't shy away from these um you know let's say more values-based appeals. I mean he calls out racism when he sees it. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> But he always always pivots to the material lived reality of people and how he would make it better um when well when he was campaigning and now how he will make it better now that he's the mayor. And I think there's something there. I've seen Zack Kalansky of the Green Party in the UK doing the same thing. So, he doesn't end up talking all about racism or homophobia or fascism or whatever. It's it's about, okay, yes, that's wrong, but here's what I'm going to do, you know, and what he's talking about then after that is things that will make a real tangible difference in the lives of people. For example, Mandani's whole focus was on affordability and and the policies that he um got voted in for were were all all of those, you know, in terms of grocery grocery stores and transport and >> um healthcare other issues. So I think there's something there that the left more generally and especially in Europe can really learn from. Um, but we have to get out of these conversations about just how how everything is and how everybody is, you know, that doesn't agree with us are x or y or zed name or bigoted or whatever because there's no solution, you know, that's not a solutionsoriented thing and people have a nose for that. >> I mean, I I think the SPD ran with vote for us just to note vote for the RFD. What kind of politics is this? What what is your your counter your counter um idea >> vote for everything just not IFD and then and then and that shows how much you're completely disengaged from the reality why people vote the IFD instead of going >> into dialogue figuring out okay because in in many cases the people are not that far apart when it comes to analyzing what's wrong right So an AFD voter will tell you wages are too low, housing is too, too high. What am I going to say? No, it's wrong. It's reality. So, so engage on the basis of what is your idea to change that or what do you have to offer or you know be a bit humane about the conversation and not and not be like uh yeah that ideology won't help you because people don't see what I think the left sees the world sometimes different than normal people see it. They think in different language. [clears throat] They think in different categories if in any categories to be honest. >> And we tend to categorize everything like put it in boxes and then put the people in the boxes. And that's uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable to engage with >> with that kind of um >> live reality.