The $110 Billion Dollar Man - Binance Founder Opens Up | PBD #797

President Trump give me a pardon. >> Who cares about getting a pardon? >> I'm labeled as a felon. >> Binance founder sentenced [music] to four months in prison. >> You could tell they were interested in targeting a guy like you. >> The timing is coincidental. Today US is pro-crypto. >> The White House pledged to make America the crypto capital of the world. >> making friends with the Democratic Party. >> That's crazy. >> Your tweet was one of the reasons that caused them to go out. >> think those were my exact words. >> There it is. That's the tweet. He was the biggest guy giving money to them. You just took that money away. >> Sam mini made up >> arrested. >> Adam Back is Satoshi Nakamoto. >> Do you think there's a chance that it's him? >> Uh >> In their eyes, would China look at you as they made you? >> Because I look Chinese, part of the CCP, or anything like that? >> That's completely false. >> You make it seem like anybody can start a company and get to 100 billion. >> I'm a normal guy. >> You're not a normal guy. >> I don't think I've ever sat in a Lambo yet. >> Stop it. >> I just worth 100 billion dollars, give or take. Never been in a Lambo. Enjoyed today's conversation with the one and only CZ. >> CZ, great to have you on a podcast. >> Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. >> I told my guys, I said, "Listen, I noticed everybody was going in the cigar lounge to meet you." I said, "You better not ask him for a loan. You better [laughter] not go and say you want a donation or a loan from this guy." Cuz the first thing they found, "What's his net worth? Is he really worth 110 billion dollars?" That's what That's the first thing people want to find out. And you're like, "Yeah, you know, he's a pretty rich guy." But it's funny. I got all these things I want to go through with you, with your story. I was telling you earlier how your story's a movie. They could turn it into a movie at any time. And I hope it turns into a movie because you've lived an interesting life. But you Did you flying from UAE? >> Yes. >> Okay. Is it true that you guys just got attacked or you got bombed yesterday by Iran at a couple oil facilities? >> Uh I don't know where they attacked, but as we were leaving, there were missile alerts. And the flight was on off on off. >> When you were leaving? >> When we were leaving. Yeah, so just on my way to the airport, like no, the flight was off. And then 20 minutes later, the missile warning was was canceled. Well, it was resolved. It was on again, and then it was off again, and on again, and then yeah, so that's how we fly. And we we wait so just before we were supposed to take off, there was off again. We said, "Well, let's just wait for 20 minutes." It was off It was Yeah, so and then we we had a 20-minute window the plane took >> the pilot say? Did the pilot say, "Hey, we don't know. Are they giving us safety protocol or no? Hey, we're going to take off. It's going to be fine. It's going to be a long flight. We're going to be okay. There's going to be a little bit of turbulence." What warning did the pilot give? >> So, the the pilot's just waiting for the Like the the pilot's just following instructions. So, whenever there's a warning, they huddle everything into this into a safe room that's like in the middle of the airport away from glasses, windows, and stuff like that. And whenever the the warning's off, you say, "Well, you can board the plane." And then you fly off. And it was actually no turbulence. It was calm day. It was calm day. >> No turbulence. Yeah. Did you Did you Were you worried while you're taking off or no? You were you >> No, I I wasn't worried. >> Not worried. Okay. >> So, like 99% interception rate and super safe. Yeah, it it it is worrying because there's a missile flying in, but it's super safe. >> So, the living there yourself, you feel safe living in UAE, Abu Dhabi. You do? >> Very safe. >> It When you think about all the things that you can't you can buy with money. You can go to a restaurant. Customer doesn't you know, the waitress doesn't give you good service. You can buy the restaurant and say, "You're no longer here." You have that kind of money. You can You can go to a sports game. You don't like the team's management. You can make a massive offer the next day and buy an NBA team or an NFL team. But when it comes down to security, living at a place what what made you pick UAE out of all the places to live in? >> I mean, it is the safest country Well, safest country in the world. >> You believe that? >> By far. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Tell me why. >> You can If you drop your wallet on the street and it has like I don't know, 3,000 bucks in there, you walk up You come back in a week, it's still there. You'll find it. And people who find it will return it with a cash in there. Uh, there's zero uh basically all zero crime. Uh, there's no petty crime, no big crimes, etc. Uh, and the physical security on the street translates into financial security, fintech. It's just very well run. Um, and uh, and also the leadership of the country is very pro-business, uh, very very smart, very very uh, calibrated, um, extremely um, visionary. So, uh, it's one of the best places to be. Yeah. >> Do you do you think about the importance of like what level of importance do you put on where to raise your family, on the the strength of the military of that country in today's turbulent times that we have? Do you say, "Man, I wish UAE had a stronger military?" Or no? >> Um, well, I think I was actually surprised at how strong the military of UAE is. Um, I didn't know until they were missiles flying in and they were intercepting it. I was like, "Wow, that's pretty cool." Um, and I didn't like, you have to think about it, right? How much do you have to prepare that in advance to be able to intercept that many missiles coming in. Uh, and it takes years and years of preparation. So, that this foresight there, uh, that's really hard to match. Um, I think UAE does rely very heavily on US support from a uh, from military from military um, equipments, uh, technology. >> on us for that. >> Uh, I think so, yeah. >> Okay. >> Um, so, they're very strong partner for for the US. So, I think they they do quite well there. Um, and then um, but other than that, I think that just just the country's very very very well governed. Um, if you have sensible leaders, you have to like smart leaders that are fair and that wants the country to grow instead of growing their own pockets, [snorts] then you you have a pretty good country. Yeah. >> I saw a stat the other day and I wonder how you answer this one. In the 70s, uh, in the S&P 500, it showed that, you know, 85 to 93% of the wealth was tied to tangible assets in 1970. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So, if somebody was a billionaire and they lived in a state, they ran a business, they couldn't move to another state or they couldn't move to another country because it's tangible asset wealth that they have. Today, we've gone from 85, yeah, 85% back in the days to now it's the other way around. 92% is an intangible assets. Patents, you know, brands, you know, Bitcoin, crypto, AI, all this stuff that they're building. Moving forward, do you think this is going to be a threat to countries that don't know how to handle small business owners or big businesses? That person can say, "Great, I'm going to go move in UAE. I'm going to go to Singapore." How do you view that with how much of the wealth today is tangible instead of intangible? >> I think that's a great point. I think I agree with you 100%, which is um right now, if you look at the wealth today, it's IP, it's technology, it's crypto. They have no borders. Even with like IT IP and technology, there's some country limitations, right? So, if you run a IT like say AI, you're running US or you're running in China, you're still kind of confined to those countries. Whereas in blockchain, our industry, crypto, there's no borders. Your Bitcoin is yours no matter where you are. You fly to a different country, you don't have to even make a transfer. That crypto stays with you. Right? And also technology startups, we're seeing a lot of technology companies amassing very high valuations. And those are the big big drivers for this for economies of countries and the world. They can be based anywhere. So, and this is good and bad. So, now countries with favorable regulations, with good leadership, good regulations, good environments will attract those top talents. And talents are very mobile now, right? You get educated in one country, you can move to different country very easily. And you learn your skill, you know, you can also work remotely for like you know, Binance has remote work, 5,000 people working remotely. So, all of this is a possible now. So, >> In how many countries the 5,000? >> Oof, >> don't really know for sure, but more than 100 countries I would say. >> You have 5,000 employees working for Binance. >> They're all remote. >> In 100 plus countries, everyone's remote. >> Yeah, pretty much everyone's remote. So, I don't run Binance anymore, but you know, this is this status is pretty public. >> You still own 90% of it though. >> Uh no, actually I I'm a large shareholder, but not 90%. So, probably a bit less than that. >> [laughter] >> But you still have majority control though. You're above 50. >> Uh I have I'm I'm the I'm the I'm the single largest shareholder. So, >> Majority? >> Yes, yes. >> Okay, got it. So, even though after all this which we'll get into, even though all that stuff happened, they said you couldn't be CEO, uh still as a majority shareholder, you still carry a lot of influence. >> Uh I think influence, yes, but I don't run the company. I I don't I don't try to I don't give them instructions, uh but you know, my shareholder rights are intact. So, I'm a share I'm a shareholder. So, I get shareholder information. Yeah. >> That's pretty wild. So, 5,000 employees, 100 plus countries, you know, uh you're a thinker. When I watch you in interviews and things you say, I watched you with Peter Schiff debate on the way you brought the kilo of gold. You're like, here, here, let's split it. You're trying to kind of make the point of the difference between traveling airport, um why why live in UAE? Why not live in America? Why not, you know, from the outside yourself cuz America's always been known as the land of all opportunities, you know, the place to be for entrepreneurs. Do you as an outsider, you're not an insider, do you view America as the greatest country to live in today moving forward as an entrepreneur? >> Okay, I'll give you a a very blunt answer. >> Please. >> Um I think since um the last 1 year and a half, I think America's probably back to the best country to one of the best countries to to to live in. Um but during the Biden administration, it was one of the worst places to live in, I think. I would I basically just tried to stay as far away from US as possible during that time. They were very hostile on crypto. They're were very hostile on our industry. So, I just wanted to stay as far away as possible. So, it was it was not possible to run a crypto business in in America before. I think now it's it's more possible. Um so, I think in the last year and a half we've seen the rever- we've seen 180° reversal, which is great for the US economy, I think. >> Now, would you consider ever coming down here and living here? Or no, you're happy in UAE? >> Uh I think right now my life is just pretty set up and I it's not not easy getting US passports um etc. Um so, um I I'm pretty content where where I am, but I think we will want definitely want to do more business and more invest more in the US. >> So, if I'm a if I'm a friend of yours, I know and I I know you do some mentoring as well for some of the founders that you work with. And if I ask you, I said, "Look, I got a bunch of different places to live in in crypto space. Should I go build my hub out of a America or should I build it outside of America? What what advice would you give me?" >> I think today I would I would say definitely do do you have a presence in America, but you you may want multiple presences because the the crypto regulations today are country specific. US regulations doesn't service the rest of the whole world actually. I think UAE is actually one of the very few places that offer global crypto licenses for crypto exchanges. Right? So, and that's fairly new as well. So, we're still at the early stages of this regulatory frameworks in different countries. And US, I think it's progressing extremely well, extremely quickly. I think there was some progress on clarity act even last night. Um and so, but I think yeah, US is definitely the one of the places to be, but I wouldn't say I have always have a global view on business. I wouldn't focus on only one country. I think we're living as we said before, we're living in a world where the country borders are much fuzzier in terms of technology, in terms of digital assets. So, have a global view instead of a we no longer need to do business in one and expand to another country and expand to another to another country. We can No, you can you can you can you can you can do parallel progress. >> So even if you did get a passport to come down here, you would still choose US UAE today. >> I think today my life is pretty set up in the UAE right now. I will probably just stay there. Yeah. >> I I want again the whole point with me is do countries realize what's going to happen to the future of these wealthy entrepreneurs who their assets are intangible that they can no longer bully them with regulation because they got a 200 other countries that would love to have them. Maybe not all 200 of them. Let's just say 100 of them they can go to have a decent life and then 10 countries that are very competitive for business say UAE, Singapore, some of these countries you can go to. I wonder if as bad as it is today we see reports of people leaving California with the whole wealth tax. I don't know if you're following that closely or not. And we see what they're talking about in New York and a trillion dollars left the New York and California during COVID. California just lost another trillion dollars and their net migration rate report came out that they're even losing more people now and they want to offer this 5% tax billionaire tax on the couple hundred people that they have there. I wonder if they're going to realize how horrible of a move this is long term cuz you can go anywhere today. I wonder if they'll figure that part out. What do you think? >> Uh well, what I hear is a lot a lot of companies moving to Texas in the US, right? I don't know the details, but generally at a high level I think high taxes um doesn't work that well. Um when you can when you impose high taxes or high transaction fees or just generally high cost for doing business, a business move away. Um basically you're you're you're taxing a much smaller volume. You actually get less net tax, I think. Uh or less net fees or income or revenue how whatever you call it. Um the concept is about the same. And as you said, um the now now there There countries that are kind of actually competing for favorable regulations for businesses, favorable environments for businesses. Um so, yeah, I do think that that that that place that that that that consideration is definitely in play. Uh so, it's not it's not like, you know, the business will move and you can just tax the hell out of hell out of them. When you increase tax from like, I don't know, from 1% to to 10%, yeah, you you might you might have less taking tax income. Yeah, it's it's not that straightforward. >> It being close to Iran, what is your opinion on what's going on with Iran? >> Well, I didn't follow geopolitics that closely before. I'm just like a business guy doing crypto, etc. But after the after the war started, I'm really not Well, I live in a country that was attacked by Iran. UAE did not initiate any attack. And we even And UAE was the most missile attacks from Iran out of all countries. I think it's just because of the physical proximity, because they're just across the water. Um but even being attacked being the most attacked, they didn't retaliate, right? So, UAE held back. They probably could, but they didn't. This This goes to the wisdom of the country leadership. But living there seeing missiles flying overhead, can't make me support Iran, >> [laughter] >> right? So, yeah, so I I'm I'm against all wars. Um and also I based on my limited understanding, the fact that Iran hit every country in the Gulf is a bit crazy. I wish the war would stop soon. I wish people come to the to to their senses. So, and also I based on what I'm reading, it's just like there's no leadership there. Right, there's no leadership in Iran. It's pretty chaotic. I really wish, you know, we can help put or like somebody puts order in there and then people can move on to to build businesses. >> You think it's unified, the Gulf states, like against Iran? >> Uh I'm not too sure. I'm not an expert on this topic, but it doesn't seem to be super unified. I think everyone have the different opinions, right? We see UAE like now withdraw from OPEC, uh uh which is pretty significant and also which is pretty strategic. Um so there's some diff- I wouldn't say everything is aligned. Um yeah, you have multiple countries, you have multiple personalities, you have multiple people involved. Um it's a dynamic environment. Again, I'm not an expert on this kind of >> No, I I asked it because if you're also not a regular guy though. You you know, you have a lot of money, you have a lot of influence, you built one of the fastest-growing companies to billion dollars at the time it was the fastest. The total amount of money transactions that's been done in Binance, I saw 125 trillion dollars. I think I saw a number like that. So it's not like you you know, you founded a just a regular company. It's a big company with a lot of influence and compliance. Uh and I know you when you're saying not all the Gulf States, UAE, Saudi Saudi dictates prices for oil. So they're probably not happy that UAE left and Qatar left in 2019. I just wanted what your opinion would be on that because safety matters at this space. So going back to it, your story. Fascinating story. You know, before everybody learned about you with Binance, at the time I think you guys went from zero to billion the fastest out of any other company that we had. And then reports came out you on Twitter, you have a massive following when it comes on to Bitcoin, the comments you've made, the stories of you selling your house for $900,000, all of that. But for some of the audience that maybe doesn't know before you became the business tycoon that you are today, how does the story begin? >> Oh, well, we trace back, right? I was born in a fairly rural village in China. Um I grew up there, moved to a city uh in when I was 10, and then moved to Canada when I was 12, and then I did high school uh there. Um I did high school in Vancouver, and then um I started college in Montreal uh in McGill. Uh didn't graduate there. Um I went did 4 years, and then my my intern boss gave me a job, and I delayed and delayed um and I never went back to McGill. I started working. Um and then um, I worked in a new uh Tokyo, New York, Shanghai, um, and then um, where else? Uh, Singapore, um. So, um, I started with a as an IT guy, um, and then turned into an entrepreneur. I worked at New York in New York in Bloomberg in New York, um. And so, I was always in this sort of thing, financial tech, fintech field. Um, so um, and then I started a a company. I was a junior partner of a IT company. I started a company with six other uh older guys, um, in Shanghai in 2005. Did that for 8 years, and then I came across Bitcoin in 2013. Um, and then I was like, this is the this is the this is the future technology. So, at that time it was actually pretty interesting because um, I think there's three big technologies in my life. There's internet, there's blockchain, and at the time I didn't know what was next, right? At at the time I thought the next one was going to be like 10, 15 years later. Now we know it's AI. So, I think this is the three big technologies in my life. Um, when the internet was happening I was too young to really do anything meaningful with it. Um, in the blockchain uh when blockchain's happening we know we got lucky. We founded a platform that's uh that's impactful, that's useful. And then so, yeah, that's kind of how I came to be. Yeah. >> Well, if I was in high school with you, say you're 14, 15 years old. Who were you in high school? We're in a class together, who sees you? >> I was a normal kid. I was a bit geeky. Uh, I played a lot of sports, um, and um, I was like, you know, Asian kid in in Canada, um, that played volleyball, um, that um, just normal kid. Nothing I wasn't super smart. I wasn't super um, I wasn't the best in in any academics. I was pretty decent in math and science, um, a bit weaker on the literature, like, you know, English, uh French. I was very very bad in French. Um, uh yeah, so but I was a normal kid, yeah. >> Did did did people like did you know you're going to do something special? Like was there something where you're like one day I'm going to Were you a driven kid or >> No, no, no. It was It was not It was No, it it was like there was no indications that I was anything special. Um I was just a normal kid. Yeah. Um I There was never any indications oh this guy's going to build a you know, billion-dollar company even. >> Were you a dreamer? Would you dream about one day, you know, I'm going to do this, make my family proud? Was there any thoughts like that with you? >> No, I didn't have any of the I wanted to be successful. Uh I wanted to do I wanted to do well, but I never dreamed of being a billionaire or like you know, run a largest crypto exchange like like this is never like you know, um I I just wanted to like you know, have a I want to be financially uh successful. I want to have a successful career. I want to build a good life. Uh I want to I always worked hard. Um So, but it was it was like I wasn't dreaming like you know, I want to be the worst I don't know, whatever ranking. That just That's not >> you. >> Yeah. >> So, you I don't know if you read the book Accidental Millionaire. Uh Uh it was a book written about uh Apple about Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. It was a I think it's a former employee that wrote it. It's a little bit of disgruntled guy that was saying bad things about him. Uh there's a different copy of it if you go to Accidental Millionaire and you put Apple, just go to images, you'll see which one it is. Apple, that's the one right there. Um then they wrote a book called The Accidental Bill Yeah, if you notice it's only got 11 reviews. This came out in '87. It's actually a very good book. For somebody in the space Lee Butcher was actually a very good book I read. Then the book came out called An Accidental Billionaire. And that was written I think about um uh Mark Zuckerberg who, you know, he became a billionaire. Now you I don't know what they call it. What's a hundred is what? Senti? Is a hecta is 10? >> A centi. >> Senti, right? So, acci- So, you're an accidental centi billionaire. >> I'm not sure my I'm I I'm not sure I'm centi to be honest. Um I think the Forbes estimates are a bit off. They they they're too high. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Uh but yeah, um kind of accidental, yeah. >> And how did it When you cuz I know the story when you sold your property, if you want to share that story when you sold the property and you bought all Bitcoin, what got you to the point of saying I have to I have to be able to get into Bitcoin? >> Um I started learning about Bitcoin in 2013, right? And um at the time I was like what, 36, 37? Uh and then I was like, okay, this is the this is the future future technology. This is bigger than the internet. Um and when the internet was happening, I was too young. So I was 36, 37-ish, I wasn't going to let this opportunity pass by. Uh so I said, look, I just got to get involved in this in this in this new technology uh field. I don't I don't know what I'm going to do first. Uh I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I'm going to buy Bitcoins first. Uh so I sold my house, sold my apartment, and bought Bitcoin. Um so that was like pretty clear to me. That was a very long-term conviction. >> What did you Is this a $900,000 apartment? >> Yes, this is a $900,000 apartment. >> And when you bought it at the time, what was the average price of Bitcoin? >> The average price I got in was about 600. I bought it at I I got payments in installments, right? So I bought it at 800, 600, 400. So the average was >> So if we do six we do 900,000 divided by 600 * 81,000, you're looking at $121 million give or take. >> Something like yeah, it's just yeah, about $100 million. >> Selling a $900,000 apartment turn into $121 million. >> Hey, I >> [laughter] >> The average person listening to this thinks that's crazy, but what made you say this is what I'm going to be doing? That's a pretty bold decision to make. That's a big risk to make. >> Uh well well number one is I saw the clear future of the technology. I don't know what's going to be like exactly, but I know it's going to grow. Um so like >> What made you say that? What made you Is it a paper you Is it a white paper you read? Is it someone's paper you read or >> Oh back then there was much less materials about it. Um there was white paper that I read. There was a forum called bitcointalk.org um I spent a lot of time on. And then uh going to conferences, meeting meeting the people, the community uh made a huge difference. And also doing the first transaction with Bitcoin when when you when you when you install your own Bitcoin wallet and you realize it, well, wait a second, this this is a network I can send money to anyone. I have full control. There's no bank involved. There's no no other fees involved. Uh it's instantaneous. Um so, uh once you realize that, it's like this is a technology for the future. Uh not only did I just sell the apartment, um I actually quit my job to look for a new job in this industry. Right? So, most people would say like, no, then those two combined are pretty high risk. But, I think as I No, as I as I um detail in the book, risk is um risk is not based on the action. Uh it's based on your individual circumstance. For me, my risk tolerance is at the time was high cuz I know I I can get a job. If like Bitcoin went to zero, I can get a job in a bank. >> Mhm. >> Uh got it. >> I can I can get I can get a job on Wall Street again. >> That confidence came from what? Your just pure skill set and knowledge? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I like, no, by the time I I I learned about Bitcoin in 2013, between between 2001 and 2005, I was working in Bloomberg in in New York. Um and so, I was doing entrepreneurship for eight years afterwards. I thought my, you know, experience and everything else have increased. Uh my value should have increased. >> At the time when you sold your apartment and you quit your job, how much did you have in liquid cash? >> Uh >> Did you have some money or >> Not very much because I put most of my cash into the company that was like that was working before and the rest the cash was in the apartment. >> Less than half a million bucks? >> Oh, way less. Actually, probably much less. Uh the the apartment money was pretty much all I had. >> The reason why I say this is it's not like that was a you made the decision cuz you had a couple million dollars in a bank from a previous exit. >> Oh, no, no, no. >> You're not rich at this time. >> No, no, no, yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah, so that >> That's a that's a risky decision right there, but you trusted your ability on the way to work and the skill set that you had and the knowledge that you had. >> so I didn't need the 900 uh thousand to maintain my lifestyle. >> Got it. >> I I can work for income that will maintain maintain my life. >> And you were a minimalist even at that time. You I >> Yeah, I wouldn't call myself a mini- minimalist. I'm just pretty basic, right? So, I wouldn't like you know, if you look at my table, it's got all kind of camera gadgets. I wouldn't like minimal, like very clean. That's that's how I like think of minimalist. I'm just a normal basic guy. >> Got it. Okay. >> do anything fancy. >> So, when you found out Bitcoin, was it like a 3:00 in the morning aha moment? You're calling your friend, "Wake up, John. I got to tell you something. We're going to do something special." Did you have a Did you have a moment like that or was it gradual? >> Uh well, a friend told me a friend around town told me about Bitcoin over a poker game. It was a very friendly poker game. And then afterwards, I spoke to another friend who whose his name is Bobby Lee. Uh he was just about to join >> Bobby Lee? >> Yeah, he was just about to join BTC China, which is at the time >> Not the comedian Bobby Lee. >> No, a different different Bobby. >> Okay. >> Uh not this >> I think about Bobby Lee, all I think about is Bobby! >> Uh no, no, no. And [laughter] and uh not this guy, not this guy. Yeah, yeah. Uh but yeah, so there was a couple friends who were like you know, who were around me. They were getting pretty serious into Bitcoin. I was like, "Okay, let me let me learn about that a little bit more, yeah." >> And so, from there is it you know, inviting friends over, "Guys, we're going to go do this. We're going to go do that." or no, it was more, "I got to go find a company to work for." >> At the time, first I spoke to a bunch of guys. We tried to do a few different businesses. Like especially like let's do this and that. We I talked to a couple friends in Taiwan who used to work for TSMC, the Taiwan semiconductor uh >> manufacturer >> manufacturer, yeah. Basically, all the Nvidia chips, all the AI chips, 80% of the world's chips are manufactured there. Uh we wanted to do a Bitcoin mining chip or a mining machine, but that didn't materialize. It involves a lot of logistics, which are not my specialty. >> How close did you guys get to executing that? >> Uh not very close. We discussed business concepts. We had to like maybe even a business plan, but we didn't pull the trigger. Um, I did a couple like robo like uh Bitcoin ATM machines. I actually sold a couple. Uh, and but that also didn't um grow. Um, and then I said, "Okay, well, instead of trying to do a startup, let me try to work for a company first." And I bumped into a few guys at uh Blockchain.info, uh and then I joined them for a few months. >> Big company, small company, startup? >> We're a small company. I joined I joined as a third person there. >> And who would have Were they players? The other two guys, were they players in the Bitcoin space? >> Uh, well, the founder the Yeah, yeah, the founder is a 20-year-old kid who wrote a website that attracted 20 20 million uh uh users. Um, >> Wow, at the time he was 20? >> At the time he was 21, 22, yeah. >> And how old were you at the time? >> I was like 30 I was 36, 37. >> So, 36, 37-year-old goes works for a 20-year-old to build a website with 20 million users. >> Uh, well, he already built the website. I was just helping him really. Um, yeah, so I I uh yeah, so um >> Did you go in as an equity position player or no? Just a uh uh regular person? >> No, I joined without much equity. Um, I was I I have a earnout for to earn the equity, but I didn't stay there long. Uh, I only stay I didn't stay more than a year, so I didn't have >> Did he end up becoming a major player? Like is he a known guy in Bitcoin today? >> Uh, no, he >> very successful or >> Uh, no, he um his name is Ben Reeves. Uh, he's the founder of the company, but he sold his shares later on uh um for a few at least a few million uh uh probably double-digit millions. And but then he he's a very low-key introvert. So, he he stayed out of sight. Yeah. >> Got it. Ben Reeves. >> Yeah. >> Is that part of Blockchain.com or >> They I think they later they later renamed to Blockchain.com. Um, yeah. Uh, this page doesn't talk about Ben Reeves, but Ben Reeves Ben Reeves is a fun is a is a is a true founder. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> So the Reeves, Peter Smith, and Ben Reeves. Got it. So, what did you learn from what he did? So, now you're working there. What What did Ben do cuz you're not there for too long? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> How How long were you there? >> I was there for 8 months. >> And during that 8 months, was it an accelerated learning curve of finding out everything with Bitcoin? >> I learned a lot, actually. Number one is the community is very dynamic. So, this guy, Ben Reeves, he his only marketing was based on one thread on bitcointalk.org, which is a bulletin for like a virtual bulletin board form. >> That's what brought 20 million people? >> Yeah. And then And then also blockchain.info at the time didn't have a company. They don't use bank accounts. They don't have an office. They pay everybody in in Bitcoin. They pay all the, when we grew into like 18 people, we just the company just paid every month send some Bitcoin to all the employees. It's up to them to how how they handle that Bitcoin those Bitcoins. They didn't have an office. They didn't even have a company back then. So, it's just like 18 people working together well and they're still growing. So, I learned a lot of different stuff about blockchain about crypto during that time. Yeah. >> Got it. So, the whole Did your idea of not having a headquarters kind of come from the experience here that you don't need it? >> It definitely contributed to to like when early on in Binance I said like we don't need a headquarter. We we can pay everybody in crypto. Yeah. >> Got it. So, then from there 8 months later, what do you do next? >> I actually joined a Bitcoin exchange in China OKCoin at the time. And then I learned a bit about like how exchanges operate. Exchanges are actually much closer to what I know best. I've been dealing been dealing with trading systems quite a lot. So, yeah. So, actually He Yi hired me into into into OKCoin. Yeah. >> So, that's OKX. And And then how long were you there with them? >> I was there also just under a year. Yeah. So, yeah. >> So this turned into a big company. They got 5,000 plus employees. This is San Jose, California. How big of a company is this? >> I think they're about 2 to 3,000 people. I maybe 5,000, I don't know. I haven't but they're they're still around. They're they're the decent size size exchange. They're probably about I would imagine like about 10 times smaller than Binance. >> 10 times smaller than Binance. Yeah, even even Coinbase. I saw the numbers even Coinbase is what? A third of your size? >> It depends on how you calculate but trading volume they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're much much less than than that. But by Bitcoin reserves they're probably about a I actually don't know the numbers on top of my head anymore. By Bitcoin reserves they they Coinbase has a has a has a decent Bitcoin reserves. They started early. >> Got it. So from from that company you go to from China, how much longer after that do you start Binance? >> So I left that company that took took me another I left that company in 2015 and it was 2 years later in 2017 I launched Binance. >> So at this point when you're leaving and you're working at these different companies, what what is are you sitting there saying I'm eventually going to start something. I'm eventually going to start something or that's not even on your mind right now? >> So in 2015 I said look I'm going to do my own startup, right? So I and I actually wanted to do a a Bitcoin exchange. Basically very similar to what Binance is. But then um the team I assembled we only had tech guys and we don't have a marketing team. And I wanted to do a Bitcoin exchange in Japan and none of us speak spoke Japanese. So we I tried to raise money from VC investors and they're like no there's no way you can do this Bitcoin exchange thing. But you can provide the technology for Bitcoin exchanges. So we pivoted to a technology company providing exchange systems to other exchanges and we did that for 2 years. And then it was 2017 we said well there might be a chance that we can pivot uh uh running up Bitcoin exchange ourselves. So, uh 2015 we tried to do we tried to do a Bitcoin exchange, um but we were not quite ready. >> Pre-17, are you a known player in the crypto world, in the Bitcoin world? >> Uh I think I had a bit of a reputation by to the by 2000 2017 because back then >> What would people say about you? Who was CZ pre-starting Binance? Like if somebody came up like right now we talk about Ben Reeves. >> Yeah, yeah. >> If somebody said, "Hey, CZ in 2017 pre-Binance, what would they say about CZ?" >> They'll probably say like CZ is a technology guy, um been involved in the crypto industry relatively early, um and um I worked, you know, been a fairly senior position in a wallet company, senior position in a exchange company, and then build a build his own business as a technology exchange service systems technology company. Um that's probably what people would say, yeah. >> Okay. And so from there, now you have a reputation. Are you at a point that if you start something, people want to work with you? >> Uh generally, yes. >> Okay. >> So now you start Binance. >> Yeah. >> When you start Binance, what what were some of the big early meetings you guys had? Like do you is do you you know you think about the meeting that everybody has seen with Jack Ma when he's doing Alibaba and he's there with, you know, five, six, seven guys. I'm sure you've seen this video. It's not black and white, but it's old video where you can tell it's not a Did you have a meeting like that where you said, "Guys, here's what we're building." >> Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We we had a meeting like that. We said, "Look, we're going to let's build this thing called a crypto-to-crypto exchange, right? Uh and um put the guys into a room and says, "This is what we're going to what we're going to build." And I told him, "Look, uh I've been for the last, I don't know, 17 years in my career, I've always been working on exchange systems, and now I think this is the time to build it. If I don't do this, I'm going to keep thinking about this for the rest of my life, right? So, if I don't do do this today, I might try it 2 years, 5 years, 10 years later. So, it's something that we have to do sooner or later. And now might might might just be the right time to give it a shot. Uh none of the other people objected. Everyone's like, "Yeah, let's let's go for >> Was everybody in? >> Yeah, everybody was was in. >> So, nobody's like, "Yeah, I don't know, CZ, whether you're going to be able to pull this off." Nobody doubted you. >> Uh on my team, nobody doubted. Everyone was just like, "Okay, sounds good. Let's go for it." And but when I tried to when I tried to raise money from VCs, no one no one invested. Like everyone was like, "No, no, the exchange space is too crowded. There's too many exchanges out there already. You can't do it." Uh so, that's the VC investors. And then we did an ICO, initial coin offering. >> that. >> Uh and then everyone wants to buy the ICO. >> Is it a $15 million or something? >> is a $15 million ICO. It was like so it was like a stark >> [laughter] >> it was like a stark contrast. So, >> And it's $15 million. Am I Am I correct when I say it gave 4,100 X return? >> Uh yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, so >> somebody would have put a dollar, it's what, 4,300? If somebody would have put a thousand dollars into it, 4,100 X would be what? 40,000, 400,000, 4.1 million dollars. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Just from a thousand dollars. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And even more like depending on on the BNB price price at different times. Yeah, yeah. But it was but at the time was just crazy because we had a white paper and people were were willing to give us $15 million for about half of the total supply of the coins. >> Did anybody give money that was a player where you're like, "Oh, wow, that guy's willing to give us money." Was there any players that got in? >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh >> Who were some of the big names? >> Uh well, they're all crypto guys, right? So, this this this guy his his name is Chambal. He runs What's his company name? Invectus? He did a couple different companies, I think. >> China or Japan? >> Uh he was in China at the time. >> in China. Okay, got it. >> And so, he when I when I when I asked him, he just told me he just told me that no CZ, I'll give you this much money. This is before he read the paper. He this is before he read anything. He just said oh CZ, you're going to do a project and I'm going to support you. I think he sent me I want to say like 100 ETH. At the time was I don't know, I forgot the price. But you know, he gave me like a couple hundred thousand dollars just >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> That's pretty wild. So so you people have your back. People are believing what you're going to be doing. They're sitting there, you know, they're they're believers of what CZ's going to be doing. At what point was it when you're like guys, this thing's off to the races. We built something special. When did that happen? >> I think it was about a month after launch. So we launched in July 14th, 2017. A month after launch, we were like we were growing. Um Um the first three weeks the BNB price was actually underwater. Was below the ICO price. So that was like high pressure period. And then about a month later but a week the next week BNB price went 29X. Right? This is like 29 2900 times. >> In one month? >> 2900% in one week. >> In one week? >> In what in in the fourth week. And then that's when I okay, this thing might work if it stays. And also our we we look at our user growth on the platform. The users were growing like this. So they were real users with real trading. And then it was about I I forgot. It was like maybe two months three months in. I asked our finance like you know, how we doing financially? The guy said well, we're making a couple hundred Bitcoins. Like like I thought that number was wrong. I was like there's no way we're making that kind of fees. >> Couple hundred Bitcoins? >> Back then Bitcoins were maybe like $3,000. Whereas now like $100,000 today. Well, not like 70 80,000 dollars today. Um But like but yeah, it was like a couple hundred Bitcoins on on revenue. I was like there's no way that's correct. And so we double-checked the numbers. We're like, okay, then we got this correct. Well, then we got a we probably got a viable business. >> Wow, 200 Bitcoins a day? >> No, no, no, not a day. Like over over a period of time. >> Over that that few weeks that you're talking about. >> like maybe 1 or 2 months. I I don't Yeah. >> And you know in your mind that's a lot at that point. Like things are starting to pick up for us. $600,000, right? 200 Bitcoins at 300 at $3,000. Am I saying it correctly? $600,000, yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think so. So so things start uh growing. And then how long did it take you guys until you got the billion-dollar valuation? >> It took a uh So we I don't know when the valuation is, but we were probably one we are one of the fastest companies to reach $1 billion in profits. I think that took about a year. >> Profits took 1 year? >> Yeah. >> Not rev? >> Not rev, not rev. So it's profits. Uh yeah. At the time profits and rev is pretty similar. >> Because your margins are so >> Uh because our team is small. Uh our cost is low um at that time. Our team team very small. And uh so yeah, so that that's when yeah, that's about a year a year yeah. >> So at that time who are the major who are the top five biggest players in crypto Bitcoin in 2017 2018? >> was a Poloniex, which was the biggest. And then later on Bittrex became big the biggest by the time we launched. Um who else? Uh Coinbase was up there but not the biggest. Um there was a BitFlyer in Japan who was like, you know, pretty big the biggest for for a while. Um and Bitfinex was was was the biggest for a while, too. Uh who else? Like those are what kind of like the three or four players. Yeah. >> Got it. So a billion dollars in profits, did did you yet sense that you're making enemies or no? Everybody is good with you guys, you're not getting weird phone calls, people are not upset at you, other people are not experiencing envy, or did you start experiencing enemies? >> Uh we started experiencing jealousy even from day one. Uh even before like just from day one we launched. Um people were like people were like uh compet- competitors, other exchanges were somewhat hostile. Um but that's just competition, right? So, that's just business competition. >> Nothing dirty. >> Uh some of them are a little bit, you know, borderline, right? So, uh there's a lot of smear articles that are sponsored by our competitors, which is great for us because which is great for us because we're we're new platform. Uh we cannot afford the advertising money, and they were talking about us. Um so, >> [laughter] >> uh yeah, so that there has been like, you know, attacks, what we call fud, uh fear, uncertainty, and doubt, you know, this is false news. Um from even from day one. Um but uh but that's I thought I thought that was that was just business competition. Um the regulatory scrutiny came much later. Um the regulatory scrutiny came like 2020, like 3 4 years later, yeah. >> W- W- the year one, where you're going zero to billion in profits, and you guys are getting, "Oh my god, we got 200 Bitcoins." What are you talking about? That What does your schedule look like year one? >> Oh, that was the year one was crazy. >> Give me the schedule. What does it look like? What are you doing? >> I basically would go home to sleep uh from like 2:00 a.m. to about 6:00 a.m. Uh like that's returning home and leaving home, right? So, that's shower and sleeping between, and then I will probably take a nap in the office like around 2:00 to 2:00 to 3:00 p.m. Somewhere around there, like depending on who's in who's uh what meetings we have. Uh and the team probably did the same uh very similar stuff for like basically a year. Um Uh the whole team was in the office the whole time. Um the office is very high like very like very loud. It's just buzzing with energy. Just people yelling over each other. It's like a flea market. Um so, uh yeah, that was like the first year. And um it was just constant issues, constant uh constant stuff happening, yeah. >> You miss that? >> Actually, some of part some part of me do. Um the There's a There's a feeling that people really miss. It's like fighting with fighting the trenches with your comrades uh with your teammates. Um that that's a very rewarding feeling. Uh it's a very strong social connect network connection. But honestly, I don't think my body can handle it >> [laughter] >> now, right? >> When you tell the story and and you go through phase like that, the average person they won't believe it when you tell them the story. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Right. >> Most people cannot imagine how hard we work. >> Were you ever hospitalized for anxiety, for exhaustion? Were you ever experiencing like dehydration where you had to go and you know, get yourself IV? >> Uh no, I have not, but other people on our team have. >> On your team? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Other people on our team. So, I I like I tell people like entrepreneurship is a physical uh demanding activity. It's not not just mental, it's a physically demanding activity. Um uh our CTO still use eye drops from today. Uh from those days he got eye infection, he had to use eye drops. Um he still uses that. >> Till today? >> Uh till today. >> So, he's still there? >> He's still He's no longer CTO now. He but he's still there. He's one of the co-founders. >> Who the original people that were there, is it fair to say they're all financially successful beyond wildest imagination? >> They all are success They're all And you guys are all friends still. You guys are have relationships together. That's a beautiful thing about building something like that. >> And 80% of them 80 80% of the co-founders still with the company. Uh I'm actually one of the person that you know, stepped back. >> [laughter] >> And uh yeah, and also even the people who left we're we're friends. Um so, uh my co-founders made money. Uh so, there's a saying like in the Chinese especially in the Chinese community is that you know, I have been a pretty good leader that you know, I treated my people well. >> That's good. >> Yeah. >> And and by the way, would you consider yourself Chinese? Like if somebody asked you nationality, would you say I'm Chinese? >> Uh no, I think I'm definitely like so, I'm ethnicity wise, I'm Chinese, right? I'm by blood. But my thinking, my way of doing business, my mental process is much much more um Canadian US even. >> Canadian US. >> Yeah, like I think my uh I think my English accent is more US centric uh even though like may not be perfect. Um but um the way I think I and I do business is much more US capitalist um uh >> Western ideology. >> Western ideology, freedom freedom driven uh etc. Yeah. >> So let's go back to Binance. So you're at a billion, you're starting to get some articles being written about you. You're getting some enemies coming to you. At this point has Sam Bankman-Fried started anything or nothing yet? >> No, no, no. He started way later. He started 2000 Earliest I met him was January 2019. Yeah. >> So so you start 17, you don't meet him till 19. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And does he have a name in the market? Like do people know who he is or nothing yet? >> No. When I met him I didn't know who he was. Our client Our client manager tells me that he Alameda was a pretty decent trader or pretty big trader on Binance. Like okay, who's Alameda? Okay, I'll go check his name. >> Got it. And that was Alameda was him. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so in the market now by 2020, who is who is Binance by 2020? >> By 2020 Binance Well, by 2020 Binance has been the biggest crypto exchange for more than 3 years. So people just view Binance as the largest crypto exchange. >> So but at that point back to back to back you're the King Kong of the space. >> I wouldn't say King Kong but we have the largest Binance was the largest centralized exchange. But there's like decentralized there's blockchains, there's other things, there's stablecoins, there's other businesses in the in the ecosystem. >> The criticism that some people give is and I wonder of course this is strategy when it's the zero fee strategy that you had. How did you guys What was your thinking behind that? What what prompted you to say we're not going to charge a fee. Here's how our approach is going to be and you know, the market's going to react to it. How did that idea come about? >> I think it's a very simple business idea where you want to you want to provide no a large amount of value and you only want to realize a small portion of it. So you want to provide provide a value of 10. And hopefully only only take five for yourself. If you can do that consistently, people would do a a of business with you. The people to your customers will come to you and you will grow quickly. >> Why didn't others do it? If it's such a simple thing, why didn't why don't the other guys do it? >> I think a lot of people have in their heads that they want to maximize their cut on each transaction. What you want to do is actually want to minimize your cut cut on each transaction and you want to increase the number of transactions. So that you you you multiply the the the the the scale. >> Mhm. >> Uh many people just don't can't can't handle it. Many people just want to like you know, I want to take the maximum that's possible that's that's ours. But if but before you don't have you feel like that some of the largest businesses Google uh Google makes fees on advertising, but they provide a lot of free infrastructure in in the internet space. Um the time clock that we use is probably synced by with a Google time server and that's completely free. Um the DNS services that you know, it's completely completely free. So they provide a lot of infrastructure to run the internet completely free. They just make money from advertising like from some ads. >> Mhm. >> And now the ads is cover coverage is more a spread across different products, but for years they only advertise on search. Like Gmail was no ads. Um Google Maps was no ads for years, right? So but they were able to make enough money to sustain themselves. We had the same we were in a very lucky for same fortunate problem uh situation where our revenues from a small amount of business from a few businesses were able to sustain us to provide more free services to everyone so that we can grow the industry. We can grow the crypto industry. And um so if you can if you provide a value of 10 and you charge only two and you can sustain yourself and you can scale, your business will grow really fast. So many people don't realize that. You actually want to charge the mini minimum fee that you minimum cut so that you are sustainable and hopefully you can scale. If you can do that, you'll make way more money than you charge eight or nine. >> So where's the real money made with Binance? >> Uh trading fees actually. >> Trading fees? >> Just trading fees. Like so trading when people trade we charge a small commission of or Binance charges a small commission. That's uh yeah. >> Comparable to others, how how much lower are you compared to others? >> Uh I think compared to some especially some of the US players, we're probably 20x lower. So >> 20x lower. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in some places. So uh yeah. So we we like we provide we provide the we provide the the lowest fees uh in the non-US markets. We don't have access to like that fee we don't have access to the you to the US markets yet. Yeah. >> Got it. So 20 times less >> Yeah. >> than competitors. So that got the world to come to you. So then you have volume. Did other people try to replicate that model as well? >> People do. People people try, yeah. >> To make it a zero fee like a very low fee? >> And people try. People even try to compensate like pay users to trade on them. The people try to all kind of different models. >> Have has anybody succeeded as wildly as you guys did coming out? >> Uh no. I would say no. Um there's the fees is important. Fees is one part. There's other parts like know how you protect users, how how good is customer service. Um how well you do things overall, how good is your technology. Um there's there's there's multiple things in play. But fees is important, I think. >> So can you give me some numbers because when I when I look at the numbers that I pulled up with what you guys have done, some of these numbers are are wild when you look at the stats. So lifetime trading volume, 125 trillion dollars. Total users, registered users globally, 280 to 300 million registered users. At peak, you held 70% of market share during zero fee promotions. Closest competitor, uh Bybit, only 8% of market share. Revenue estimate, 16 billion to 20 billion in 2024-2025, 20 2 and 1/2 times Coinbase. I mean, I can go through a lot of these numbers. It's insane what some of the things at peak promotions, 85% of total weekly volume was zero fee. Market share skyrocketed from 50 to 70% when you announced the zero fee Bitcoin trading uh on July of 2022. Some of these numbers are staggering. But at what point were you when did the company's valuation hit a hundred billion? >> Oh, actually I don't even know what I I'm not sure if that happened yet. >> What what was What was the biggest milestone you guys celebrated? What was something where you even you were shocked by it? >> I think we Binance generally counts the number of users. That's probably the easiest milestone. Trading volume is pretty easy to count as well. Valuation Binance is a private company. I don't I don't think Binance has ever done a deal had had a raise or had a >> The numbers you will hear about is a hundred to three hundred billion dollars. But to you it's a private company so you don't even know what it's worth. >> There's no transaction at those valuations. So those are estimates by third parties but the company has never raised money at those valuations. So yeah, but the thing we this for me personally as a as a shareholder not not not running the company anymore. I just I just look at the user numbers. I just said look then they put they they published that publicly. So you know three hundred million three hundred fifteen million. Those are good numbers to to to to serve to service users. >> Pretty wild. >> to to service users. >> What do you think it can go in the future? I know you're not running it. What do you think it can turn into? >> I think well the CEO just announced that the target three billion. >> Users. >> Users as the next target. But I don't I don't think that's the ultimate target. That's just the next target. >> What do you think would be the ultimate target? >> I think well everybody in the on the planet should use money and that's that's humans. And then there are AI agents. That's going to be all of us should be should have thousands. Each person should have thousands of AI [clears throat] agents. So in the future we may count humans plus agents. I don't know. >> Each of us should should have thousands of AI agents? >> Working for us, yeah. >> Working for us. >> Yeah, yeah. So you know they can edit this podcast video for you. They can buy your your coffee, they can I don't know they can book your trips, hotels, flights. Yeah. >> You just fired 15 people here, CZ. These are nice people here you're talking to. I mean, what kind of a >> They're they're they're going to use their agents to do the work for them and then they're going to you're going to have more podcasts. >> So, if you have 5,000 employees, not you, but you're the majority share. Binance has 5,000 employees today in 100 plus countries. How many AI agents do you guys have? >> Actually, I don't know how many agents they use. One number I just heard very recently is this just came from anecdotal conversation. I think I I think I heard they pay like 10 million 10 million dollars per month I AI fees. >> Per month? >> Per month. >> Binance is paying 10 million dollars a month in AI fees? >> It's just like you know, tokens. Yeah, AI tokens. That's what I heard. I I This is what I heard like a second third hand information. I didn't verify it. >> Very interesting. And what do they use that to What do they do with that? >> I don't know for sure, but I would I would suspect I would think that is probably a majority on developer like coding. I don't know I don't know if they use cloud code or some other AI code. Probably just coding is a big part. Customer support is a big part because customer support is also language interactions. Yeah, I think those are probably the bigger two. I I do encourage them to like you know, use more AI for risk monitoring, risk control, compliance. All of those areas can use AI, but I'm not sure if the models are very mature. >> Yet? >> Yet in those areas. I don't think there's a lot of training, a lot of data, etc. >> What what do you think maturity looks like in 5 to 10 years? Like you know, when language learning model ChatGPT came out like this, life changed for everybody. Teachers didn't know how to react. Universities like, wait a minute. This is a perfect paper. What are these spaces for? Who wrote this paper, right? Everything was a disruption, right? What is life going to look like where companies in 5 10 years have tens of thousands of AI agents? What do you think is going to happen? >> I think we're going to see a lot more or a lot of a lot more faster progress. And so I always believe that technology is a tool that increases productivity and that leads to faster evolu- faster progress of our civilization. Uh hopefully we don't get overrun by AI. Um you know, that becomes sovereign, etc. But I think before that we're going to see a like a dramatic increase in the in in productivity and progress. Uh so we should be able to discover drugs much quicker. Um cure diseases. Uh we should be able to discover new materials that are lighter and harder and stronger and we can go to explore space. Um we should solve many of the problems we can't solve today. Um both economics and you know, I think we'll we'll just progress faster. We can build We can build applications much faster. We can write software much faster already. Uh we so we we we are seeing much better apps, much more apps. Um so yeah, so I think our productivity is just going to increase. >> What what what uh when you do a SWOT analysis and you're talking about you know, AI and AI agents, what's the T? What's the threat long-term with AI? >> Well, obviously if AI becomes like you know, uh self-conscious and they want to compete or or they don't even have to they don't even have they don't even have to compete with us. If they just pursue a goal that we get in the way and they just want to you know, move us aside, then that's the risk, right? So uh uh we just need to figure out how to build AI safely, um which is difficult, I think, because of the competition right now. >> Yeah, how do you do that? Because if if we if we as a society run as a highly regulated environment where maybe China is not running on a highly regulated environment and they kind of lose control of the AI, what could happen if some people get a little too aggressive? Will there be you know, a moment where there'll be world AI regulation that everybody will deal with? >> Um I have a I have a slightly I'm not sure if regulation is the key here. I think it's one of the solutions that will help. I think the industry itself has to self-regulate well, self-regulate. I think by the time regulators figure out what's going on, it's the problem's already occurred. >> That's right. >> Right. So, um >> Their speed is too slow. >> Regulators are always reactive, right? So, they they they see a problem then they try to fix it. And they're very they're very slow. Um the whereas the industry industry players they're they're they're competing. This is this is a multi-hundred billion dollar companies competing for business, right? In China, US, maybe other countries as well. Um they have significant drivers to push push progress to the max. Um so, but at the same time, I long-term, I do hope the positive forces will win. And so, it could be like you have a bad AI then you have to make a good AI to combat it. Potentially, who knows? >> Yeah. >> Got it. So, to you're going to have the bad AIs, which will naturally happen, the evil, the villain, the enemy, and then we'll produce more good to take over the bad and fight against it. >> I think so. Uh I think in any industry, there's always going to be some players that are unethical, bad. There's there's always going to be a few bad apples. But by and large, I think the uh our our society overall, we are around because we are overly we have more positive forces. So, that's that's I have a pretty optimistic view on humans our civilization. >> When we set out to create a shoe that blends [music] comfort, function, and luxury, we had the choice to make it fast, we had the choice to make it cheap. We chose neither. [music] Instead, we chose Tuscan Italy. We chose true Italian craftsmanship. Each pair touched by 50 skilled hands. We chose [music] patience, spending 2 years perfecting every detail, and we chose the finest quality [music] at every step. Introducing the Future Looks Bright collection. Not rushed, not disposable, not ordinary. Rather, intentional, luxurious, timeless. Do you remember that conversation between Jack Ma and Elon Musk? Where Jack Ma's like, you know, humans, you know, AI can't do anything that we're doing and they're kind of have Do you remember that exchange between the two of them? Rob, can you find that It's a short clip between two of them. Is this the one Jack Ma? Humans or computers are smarter? Yeah, maybe start a little But let's just see how quickly he gets into it. Elon Musk said Let's Let's see if we can get any of it. Press play when Go ahead. >> Basically, there's just a smaller and smaller corner of what of intellectual pursuits that humans are better than computers. And that every year it gets smaller and smaller. And And soon we'll be far, far surpassed in every single way, guaranteed. >> Is there a reaction [music] from Jack Ma to Elon? See if there's a part where he reacts. >> So, we used to think like, for example, being good at chess was an example of a smart human. I mean, right now your cell phone could crush the world champion at chess, literally. >> My view is that um computer may be clever, but human being are much smarter. >> Yeah, definitely not. >> Clever >> [laughter] >> is very academic. It's knowledge-driven. Smarter is experience-driven. Computer is smart is clever, but it's human being. We invented a computer. >> Okay. You can pause it right there. Who Who do you agree with? >> Um I'm not too sure, to be honest. I take a I don't take binary views on on this type of things. I take a more gradient balanced view. I think there's a somewhere there's multiple aspects to it. I think as we will see >> tough spot for you to be in Jack Ma, you know, where he's at and then Elon. I'm actually curious your your thoughts on this. >> I think we will see increasing intelligence capabilities from AI, right? As they can solve more and more problems and they they can compute computational the computational power is going to increase. They can do it more and more complex things. I'm not sure about the emotional or what do you call it? The human the the sympathy the sort of what do you emotional aspects of it? I think AI so far is not sentient. They don't they don't have consciousness. They're probably not sympathetic to to a lot of the human emotions, etc. They may they may be able to we may even be able to mimic that. AI may even be able to mimic that, but I don't think they come the the true human feelings. And I think humans can use AI with this increasing intelligence. Humans are very adaptable, right? So also based on business success, business success doesn't come from intelligence alone, right? Smarter people don't build large businesses. There's a lot of fairness, ethicalness, EQ a lot of other things that >> Interesting. >> Right? So just being smart doesn't mean you you have more money. >> Right. >> That's just how the world doesn't work. >> So the point there is just because AI is smarter than human doesn't mean their EQ and empathy is going to help them retain people. So somebody may argue that and say they don't need people. They don't need to have EQ because they're talking to other AI agents that you don't need to tell them how amazing they are. You don't need to ask them how their wife and husband and kids are doing cuz they don't need that validation. So makes drama a little bit easier. You don't lose efficiency because somebody's in a bad mood cuz you didn't give them a high-five that morning. So that argument may be made against humans, no? >> It can be. It certainly can be. So AI may be more efficient and less dramatic and less troublesome to manage, etc. >> [laughter] >> So Uh, that is possible, but I don't think they replace humans uh in in that sense. >> You don't think so? >> I don't think so in the short term. And I also think that uh we will find we'll we'll find the proper safety guardrails. >> Against it. >> Uh against it. So, uh there might be some uh accidents, there might be some damages, there might be some problems, but I think over the over the long run we'll find the guardrails. >> So, future looks bright in your eyes. >> I think so. I I'm always optimistic. >> I like it. By the way, if you were 20 years if the the the 35-year-old uh uh CZ who was working crazy hours those 12, you know, the 12 months that you guys went through to billion in profits. If he's the 35-year-old today in today's market, what industry are you entering? What are you doing? How are you you know, what software are you using? What technology are you using? What would you get into today? >> Well, I think for me I would still get into the same same industry. I think you got to you can't just chase every hot industry. You have to you have to do what you do best. Well, like you have to do what you good at. What interests you and what's valuable for others. You got to find the intersection of those three things. And those three things doesn't change overnight. Um for a young person, you can learn about blockchain or you can learn about AI. I both are good. Um so, I wouldn't change what I what I would do, uh but I would change the way I would I would do it a little bit. I would be I'll be much more focused, uh much less distractions, and not just with hindsight, right? You would know like, "Okay, you got I I can be so much more focused instead of getting uh distracted in a lot of different places, etc. Yeah. >> Got it. So, internet was first, blockchain was second, AI is third. What do you think is going to be fourth? >> I don't know. That's very hard to predict. Uh like for example, before ChatGPT came out, you know, like AlphaZero, AlphaGo was there, right? I like you know, I was that wasn't a big industry, uh but then ChatGPT came, that was suddenly, "Okay, all these AI things happening." Um before before that, uh you know, Sam may know, but I didn't know. Uh so, uh I have to wait for it for it to happen to see what's next. And what's next probably going to be another, I don't know, another 10 years away. >> You think the next is going to be another 10 years away? >> No, I don't know for sure. I'm just saying that roughly, right? I don't know for sure. >> Cuz at any point we could wake up and something new is you're like, "Wait, wait a minute. What is the quantum um you know, computing and you know, it's going to take this long to build it and all of a sudden what if they do it faster? What could that turn into? So, who knows what's going to be taking place? >> you you could have it tomorrow. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, true. It could happen. So, it's a safer answer to say it could happen tomorrow. But so, let's go back to uh uh Binance. We're talking about uh um SBF when the conversation came up. Sam Bankman-Fried with FTX. So, at one point you guys did have a relationship together, right? The two of you. >> Uh well, we had a we had an investment into into FTX. So, there was a >> Was there ever a relationship or no? >> Uh no. Uh I wouldn't uh well, we known each we met each other. Uh we had each other's contact and uh but I wouldn't call it a very close relationship. I probably talked to him less than 10 times in total. >> Did you guys ever break bread, just the two of you? >> Uh we had a we we had Yeah, we had some we had one meal together. >> Just the two of you? >> Just the two of us. >> What was that like? >> Uh this is when he was seeking investment from Binance, right? So, uh uh uh uh and um we just chatted. No, we just tried to get to know each other a little bit better, etc. We had we had one meal together uh just the two of us. >> When you walked away, what was your What was the feeling you got from him? >> The feeling I got is he was very high EQ. Um >> High EQ? >> Yeah, he's very >> Really? >> Yeah, yeah. So, um he he knows what to say uh to he he knows to he from this is the impression I got from him. Uh he knows what to say, when to say it, in front of whom, in what in what circumstances. He will say the right stuff. He was very respectful to me. He was saying all the right stuff like we're going to collaborate, we're going to build this we're going to help to grow that crypto industry, we're going to solve we're going to uh help the regulatory uh evolution. Um he was saying all the right stuff that you know, yeah. >> Did you walk away saying, "I like this guy. I trust this guy. Sounds like a good player. >> Uh we work actually after after that that that that meal we actually declined to invest. That I think that was in summer 2019. Uh >> Where was it at? What were you guys in the states? >> Uh actually I it was somewhere in Asia I think. Yeah. So um Uh I think Singapore somewhere but we actually turned like he wanted investment for from us. We actually turned it down. And then he came back in November to our CFO at the time Wei. And he he made a much improved offer and then we we invested. Yeah. >> Why did you take the meeting the first time he came? Was he already a player? Was he somebody that was a known guy? >> At that time he was one of the larger traders. He was a VIP trader. Alameda was a VIP trader on Binance. So like the VIP managers like well give him a meeting, right? I usually don't don't meet with VIPs but he has a specific proposal. He wants to build a future exchange. He want he wants to build FTX. He wants us to invest. >> And this is where you guys put $2 billion into it. >> Uh no no no no. We we put them we put in much less money into it. I think we uh if I'm mistaken not mistaken we probably put a couple hundred well no sorry a couple million dollars into it. >> And this is way early on. >> This is early on. >> Okay. >> I think we got close to $2 billion out of the deal when we exited at the time. And then we held them in FTT tokens. Part of it was in FTT tokens which went to zero now. >> Oh and that's why they're suing Binance for I think $1.76 billion or whatever the number is, right? >> they they there is an ongoing litigation. So >> [laughter] >> so actually >> Between them though you're not involved in that litigation. >> I'm not too sure. I don't think I'm >> Okay. >> But you haven't gone to court so >> I my lawyer's handling it. I actually but my lawyers did did advise me not to not talk about ongoing litigations. Yeah. >> Well if I remember correctly your tweet or the decision was one of the reasons a lot of people said that caused them to go out cuz you came out and he said, "We're out. We're not doing anything." You were speaking to Sorkin, if I'm if I'm not mistaken, in a right from you you got on Aaron Sorkin. You guys are on MSNBC or CNBC. And then you said, "No, I don't feel good about it." You made some comments. "We're out." And then from there everybody said, "If CZ doesn't feel good about it, there may be something going on." You the crypto billionaire who helped expose SPF's insolvency and calls him "one of the greatest fraudsters in history and accuses media and thought leaders of being manipulated." It's some pretty strong words right there. Who said that, by the way, Rob? Is that uh >> Don't think those were my exact words. Uh >> Can you go a little bit lower in Fortune? >> Uh there's a meltdown. >> Uh SPF is one of the greatest fraudsters in history. He is a master manipulator when it comes on to media and key opinion leaders. He wrote in a tweet, "SPF perpetu- perpetuated perpetuated a narrative painting me and other people as bad guys. It was critical in maintaining the fantasy that he was a hero." >> Can you click on that Tuesday tweet link to see if uh I don't think I would call him that. I don't think I said all of those words. >> Good for you that you know whether you said that or not. >> It's just not not a >> Why would Fortune write something like that? Go right there. Go keep going lower, Rob. It's critical maintaining his SPF is one of the greatest fraudsters in history. Oh, there it is. That's the tweet. He's a master manipulator when it comes on to media and key opinion leaders. Is that your Twitter account or no? >> That looks Okay, this is an actual Twitter page, right? Okay, that Okay, that that that that does look Okay, that doesn't look like >> So, you don't you don't you don't remember it. You were pissed off that >> [laughter] >> I normally would not use that kind of language. So, that that was a mistake. >> That was pretty strong. So, >> strong. That was strong. >> What What got you to the point of saying something like that about him? >> Uh okay, I think Can you scroll back up on top on that tweet a little bit more because I it'd be good to get some context here. I think this is probably a tweet I was responding to accusations of uh Oh, yeah. So, this is a list of wrong narratives I've seen recently. >> So, list of wrong narratives I've seen recently. One, CZ wants to be the savior of crypto. Crypto doesn't need saving. Crypto's fine. So, FTX was killed by XYZ. No, FTX killed themselves because they stole billions of dollars of user funds, period. SPF has good intentions but just made mistakes. Lying is never good intentions. Go a little bit lower, Rob. CZ's tweet destroyed FTX. No healthy business can be destroyed by tweet. >> Yeah, yeah. >> However, there was a tweet that may have uh Caroline's tweet 60 minutes after mine on November 6th shows data that it was real cause for people to dump FTX. Caroline said, "Well, if you're looking to minimize the market impact on FTT sales, Alameda will happily buy it all from you at $22." Go a little bit lower, Rob. She gave her floor price away. SPF perpet- perpetuated a uh a narrative painting me as other people. It was critical maintaining the fantasy that he was a hero. SPF is one of the greatest fraudsters. Okay, so that's where he said that. >> Uh-huh, okay, okay, okay. >> All right. >> Okay, yeah. So, yeah. Um I guess that was a pretty strong language. I normally would not say that. But uh uh yeah. >> You don't remember this? >> Uh well, I don't remember the whole thread, right? So, like you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of details in that thread. Um it's not like one one one single message. >> And this is 2022. So, it's not like ChatGPT wrote that tweet. That's you writing that tweet. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so this this this this this account is operated by me. So, yeah. >> Uh okay, so well w- why? Why such aggressive language towards him? >> I think at the time I guess a lot of people were saying that you know, my tweet somehow killed FTX, right? Which I said, "Look, that's not that's not true." Uh as I said here, like a tweet >> I actually really like the answer. A tweet cannot destroy a great business. >> Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so I think there was a sequence of events here, right? So, there was a CoinDesk reporting and then there was that was on like early November, November 3rd or something. >> Mhm. >> And then our finance people asked me like CZ, like we still have hold the FTT tokens, should we sell? So, I write a tweet I said yes, we should sell. And then our finance team moved the tokens on the blockchain and the people saw it and people were asking questions and then our finance team says maybe you want to put a tweet out there saying like you want to clarify where we're selling. So, yeah, so this is a tweet that I wrote. We said we And I said we're going to sell our FTT tokens and this is the place where we got them and people can track it on the blockchain. I said we're going to sell them over a million months, right? We're going to sell them slowly not to have market impact. So, and many people blame me for causing the FTT >> You don't think you had any influence over it? >> I think >> Your voice carries a lot of weight at that time. >> Yeah, but this also I think my weight my voice carries weight but also there's a balance between being transparent and just doing this quietly like we just sell our FTT tokens quietly without letting the market know. >> Well, I actually really I I I like the approach you took. Okay, here's what we're doing. It's being honest with the market. Your customers are seeing what you're doing. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a negative impact on FTX. >> It probably does have some market impact but again, I think many people have tried to sell BNB tokens which is our token >> [clears throat] >> which is the token that we know we're building. But again, if anyone selling can kill can kill can kill your business, you don't have a business really. >> No, that's a good point. So, now now let me ask you. So, this makes me think about something else. So, at that time reports came out. One report said that he gave 40 million to the Democratic Party. Then another report said he gave 70 million. Then a federal prosecutor came out and said it It a hundred million dollars that he gave up to a bunch of different people. By the way, on both sides of the aisle, so it wasn't like it was only one side. Uh, were you Yeah, right. The federal prosecutors alleged that Sam Bankman-Fried used over a hundred million dollars in stolen FTX customers to make political donations ahead of 2022 midterm elections. Were you doing anything like this at the time yourself? >> No, we couldn't donate. Uh, we're like, no, we're I'm not a US citizen. Uh, so political donations are not possible for me. >> Right. Political donations So, so did anybody from the Biden administration come up to you and say, "Hey, if you give this much money, we'll let this go." Did you Did you get anybody knocking on your door saying, "Can you support our political campaign by sending some Bitcoin, by sending some this?" >> Uh, not that I'm not that I know. I don't think that happened I don't know any of that. >> You don't know any of that. >> It didn't happen with me. >> Didn't happen with you. >> No. >> So, you don't remember a phone call, you don't remember an email or a text or anybody coming to you. >> No, no, no. No one asked No one asked us for donations. >> So, >> Yeah. >> Do you Do you sit in the back of your mind and cuz right afterwards, how much after this did the government start knocking on your door to start saying, "Hey, we notice Binance is doing XYZ." How soon after this did they come after you? >> Uh, I I think this I think it was like the timing wise is very coincidental. Uh, right. So, but yeah, I mean, we were outside of the US. I didn't make a trip to what to Washington D.C. at all. Sam Bankman was making all those trips. So, no one asked us to even donate. We're also foreign. I'm I'm not a US citizen. I'm a Canadian. Right. So, uh Um, yeah, so we didn't get asked, but I think that's definitely I don't know if there's any correlation, but it definitely the timing is coincidental. We got a lot more scrutiny um, from the USICC, from the other US agencies on us. >> you just took away one of their biggest dough. He was the biggest guy giving money to them. You just took that money away. You're You're going to make any friends by doing that. >> Again, I don't think I took them away. Um his business crashed. >> what you're saying. No, but in their eyes, they're not looking at it that way. In their eyes, it's "What are you doing? This guy's giving us money. Knock it off, you know, knock it off." And so, they probably immediately wanted to target you cuz you put their biggest backer out. So, you're not you're not making friends with the Democratic Party. >> Well, yeah, well, this happened end of 2022. By early 2023, uh BUSD what we call the Binance USD stablecoin was shut down. And then June, I think US SEC sued Binance, Binance US, and myself. >> 23? >> 23. So, 6 months after this. >> So, six So, then there you go. So, then that makes sense. So, so 6 months after this, they come after you and they come after Binance. >> Pretty much, yeah. >> And and this was around the 100,000 What is it? The the transactions with Hamas, with Hezbollah, with uh uh you know, with Who is it? Al-Qaeda? No, I'm sorry. ISIS? Is that Is that what caused it? >> I actually don't even know what those transactions are, but yeah. Uh that there was there was negative articles about those things. >> Yeah, because there was something that I think I saw a chief compliance officer saying in an email thread that hey, "These guys are making such little transactions, they can't even afford to buy an AK-47." Something like that. Uh uh in an email exchange with a compliance officer. They showed the picture. It's public right now. So, it's not like I'm reading anything that's not public. >> Yeah. >> So, at when I when they first approached you, at what point did you know this is real? Cuz I'm sure when you're big, like, you know, we're we're we run small I've been running an insurance company for 20 years. We get lawsuits stuff that comes up and like, "Okay, yeah, we have Let's call this." But sometimes you get something like this is serious. When did you know this was serious? >> Uh early 2023. So, I think was January, February 2023, um my legal team says, "Look, the the DOJ wants to the DOJ has a case and they're pretty serious and they want to they want to get they want to get to a Well, they want to get to a deal. So that's what 2023 was when the negotiation >> This is Garland. This is under Garland. Yeah. >> Yeah, this is Garland and and so he is his team is reaching out to your team. >> Yeah, I think he like people like probably a three or four level levels below >> Below him. Did Did they at all reach out to you in 2022? >> I think there were some communications with the with the with with our teams in 2022, but I think the the my involvement with the US DOJ negotiations started kind 2023. >> Okay. So and then you know, so when that comes in, you're starting to see their team, you know, three, four layers down they're coming to you. Is it CZ? Man, this is this is urgent man. We got this could be very nasty, very ugly. At this point is it getting is it public already? Is the entire market reacting to it? Is the market writing about it or not yet? >> Not yet. It was most of the negotiation was done privately. The market didn't know about it and yeah, it was done privately. >> Do you Do you feel the negotiation with them and your legal team was fair? Did you feel that there was some animosity? Did you feel something that was unfair? How How did you process it when their team was working with you? >> Fair or not, I think it's very subjective, right? So on the receiving end, you always feel a bit a bit unfair, but um they were extremely aggressive. And the comment I heard most from my lawyers were like, no, they they've never seen a case where a government takes a BSA Banking Secrecy Act violation this This aggressively. Yeah, so yeah. >> And what was it about? What was the main premise of the case? >> At the beginning, my personal thought is what they said well, Binance violated BSA act, which we I don't I don't dispute, right? We had US users in the first two years of our operations when we started in you know, in Asia and we were like a a technology platform. So that part is fine. You know, and they really try to say, "Look, Binance facilitated terrorist financing or facilitated actively facilitated illicit transactions." Binance never does that. I never does that. I never do that. Right? It's not It's not my business. It's not It's not in my interest. I'm not here I don't even facilitate good transactions myself. It doesn't scale. Right? So, I don't handle like, you know, VIP one wants to do I don't know $10 million buy, I handle it myself. We have a platform that people use. So, so that those allegations were I think was quite extremely unreasonable. And to some extent, I think they were just hostile towards crypto and we're the largest player in crypto. Yeah. >> Got it. So, so facilitating was the issue. And I think if I saw the number, it was $8 billion is what they said the total number was. And if we say $8 billion, $8 billion on a of money being moved, $8 billion may sound like a lot of money, but $8 billion on 125 is not a lot of money. It's not like it's going to impact your revenue in a major way. So, you know, one could speculate and say, all right, they were target No, that shouldn't have happened because, you know, when you whenever you're dealing with Hamas and Hezbollah and, you know, whatever, Al-Qaeda and ISIS, you probably shouldn't be looking the other way and compliance should look at it. Uh did you did you eventually after that create some controls that now triggers when something like that happens? Like, will you be able to tell or can somebody still be able to create transactions without you guys catching it? >> Uh well, I think uh I'm no longer running Binance anymore, um but I think they have a very, very strong compliance program. Uh the compliance program is prob- probably stronger than any bank in the world. Uh the thing is, though, as strong as that is, no compliance program can be 100%. Right? So, compliance programs rely on third-party tools like, you know, chain analysis limiting to to to do the blockchain analysis to detect the transactions. And sometimes they're slow. Sometimes, like, you know, when you call them today, when the transaction's happening, they say it's not a problem. And then 10 days later, when that address interacts with other addresses, then they label that address as bad. Right? So, you can be slow. You can be like a days later that, you know, the the the label the >> Banks deal with the assault attempt. Chase deals with the with the assault attempt as well. So, no matter how good of a compliance you create, you're going to go through it. >> Yeah, yeah. So, so as you said, like, you know, there's no way to block it 100%. But, if you look at the percentages of of of of what we call bad or illicit transactions, it's much lower in crypto. In crypto, like, I think Chainalysis is own report. You know, Chainalysis is a third-party blockchain analyst compliance tool that all the US agencies use. Right? So, their own report says only 0.41% of the transactions in crypto may be illicit. Whereas, in traditional finance, like, you know, this 2 to 5%. So, this is like two orders of magnitude difference. Right? So, yeah, so the the percentage of transactions in in crypto are much much less in in terms of illicit transactions. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and then and I saw this that's very good to know because the market to be able to say on what some of the banking are doing, you guys are more secure than them. I'm sure it also brought more highlight on getting compliance tighter. But, Garland comes out in a press conference and he's bragging about the fact that you're paying the biggest corporate fee or fine for 4.3 billion dollars and then you think the company paid 4.3 and I think you paid 50 million or so and then you did 4 months where you went away, right? This whole thing. Rob, do you have that clip of Merrick Garland when he's announcing this? Did you ever meet Merrick Garland or no? You guys have never had any interaction. >> No, never never. >> So, you're not in texting mode. You guys don't text each other. >> no, no, no. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting when he did this to to brag about it. So, when this is going on, is it having a negative impact on Binance's business itself? >> Oh, yeah. >> It is. >> For sure. >> So, you're seeing customers going away to a different place when this is going on. >> For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Okay. And how big was the impact? >> Uh I would say, well, on Binance it's hard to measure, but we Binance lost most of the banking rails both globally and also Binance US losses complete all the banking rails in the US. So, Binance US actually became a crypto-to-crypto only business. Don't have US dollars. >> Can you put that to numbers? Like the audience knows how much revenue did you lose? How much dollars of business was lost? >> Binance US lost probably 99% of revenue. >> 90 and how much is that? How much is that revenue? >> Uh I think well, I I'm not I don't know I don't have the revenue numbers off of my top of my head. Binance US raised around in 2021 at a 4.5 billion valuation. Uh they probably lost 99% of that value at one point. >> Wow. Okay, so so it was a real impact to the company. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is real this is real dollars. >> Got it. And so, you know, and so when that happens, Rob, do you have the part when he says it or no? Cuz it's like a you know, it's a you know, when he the way he says it, you can tell he is celebrating that he hurt somebody. He's celebrating that he hurt somebody. Uh but you're saying in in because earlier in the podcast when we started, I asked you about living in America versus living in UAE. You said, "If I if you ask me this in 2022, no. US wasn't a place to live. Now, last 18 months, America's a much better place to live than it was you know, few years ago, 3 years ago." Why? Why would you say it's different today than then? >> I mean, today US is pro-crypto and President Trump gave me a pardon. So, it's 180° different from like you know, 2021, 2022. We were we were like you know, dealing with negotiations with a very hostile DOJ. Um and US was clearly and not just us, right? SEC sued a bunch of other crypto companies. There's probably more than like two dozen uh lawsuits from SEC. And some of the US many of them are US companies, too. So, um yeah, so the environment is just a very different environment. Yeah. Hopefully, like you know, I think but to credit of the US, you US Constitution, I didn't realize this before. I thought like you know, for the next 20 years, I'm just not going to set foot in the US, but here I am. So, the US Constitution baked in a self-correcting mechanism, right? So, every 4 years there's a new there's a there's an election. And you can be very wrong for the 4 years and then this is the point where people can vote. So, yeah, this amazed me, actually. >> The Constitution here in the States? >> The Constitution I think I think the Constitution of the United States is a very very strong piece of paper. That's probably strong even stronger than the Bitcoin paper. >> that's powerful. So, so then but but to get the context of dates right, so when do you go away? When do you get the pardon? >> So, I I arrived in US November 21st, 2023. And then I was supposed to be sentenced going through the court. I was sentenced on April 30th, 2024. I went to I think I I self-surrendered to prison on May 20 May 30th, 2024. I got out of prison on September 20 September 27th, 2024. So, did 4 months there. And then I think in October 21st, 2025, I got the presidential pardon. So, yeah. >> So, a year later. >> A year later. >> And but what is the big deal about getting a pardon though a year later? Like what does it do? What benefit do you you're not a US citizen, you don't live here. Who cares about getting a pardon? Why was that such a big deal? >> It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Without without a pardon, I'm labeled as a felon. So, I have a criminal record, right? And then especially in my industry where we deal with finances, we have to get financial licenses, my ability to what they call the fit and proper as a UBO ultimate ultimate beneficiary owner is significantly impacted. That means I cannot be a shareholder of many of our businesses. And or we will limit our ability to get licenses. This is not just in the US, this is global. And in the US even more. After the pardon, you know, this this goes away. It's a full unconditional pardon. Yeah, so the the pardon is a big deal. I With the pardon, I I don't get we don't get the fines back, but that's but still it's a big deal that we we get our name cleared. >> Got it. So it helps you out for licensing and the way US qualifies you, the rest of the world will pay attention to it. So it kind of opens the market up for you that if you choose to get back into business, you can. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Can but you have to step down as the CEO of Binance? >> Yes. When I step yes, that's true. >> What can you do? What can you not do with Binance? >> I actually have a legal opinion from my lawyers, but basically my largely my shareholder rights are intact, but now given the pardon, I believe like now I have a lot more freedom, but I still don't run Binance. So yeah, so and also the company still have two monitors on them etc. So there's still some limitations, but largely I now nowadays I don't I don't I don't actually don't really want to run Binance either. >> Would you like if they if after getting the pardon, could you now go back and be the CEO of Binance or you couldn't do it legally? >> I think there's still some restrictions around that. >> permanent or is it is there a time on it? >> It's I actually need to check with the lawyers. I Nothing's really permanent in in in in my opinion, but uh but I believe that there's still some restrictions today. >> So in 5 years, would it be a would it be a impossible thing that we get news that says CZ makes a comeback and is the CEO of Binance? Is there a possibility that that could happen? >> A very small possibility. I I think even if don't >> the itch to come back at all? >> Even if I could, I probably I Binance has very strong leaders now. Uh they they run the company much better than you know than if I were if I were to go back. I view myself a more of a zero to one kind of guy uh where from like one to a hundred, there are other people who are >> to say that. That's not easy to say. Most people don't have the the That's why you're not an ego guy though. For you to be able to say that, the average guy can't say something like that. >> Uh I'm not a ego I'm a normal guy. Like I'm not yeah. >> You're not a normal guy. You know, to say you know zero to one, you know, and you're not a one to a hundred. >> Uh yeah. >> Very few founders can say that. >> Uh I think it's my personality, right? I I like create things. Whereas running things, you know, you have to be structured. You have a lot a lot of you know, there's a lot of structure, a lot of bureaucracy. Uh when I see like you know even even if sometimes I hear about what's happening in Binance and I there's a bureaucracy, that drive me nuts. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Yeah, I can I can I can only imagine that, but it's it's probably got to be also a little bit uh relieved to not have to make any decisions. You're free. >> Yes. >> They have to do it. You're free. You're doing your own thing and you know, they're going to have to run the company and you still are majority shareholders. So if the company goes to half a trillion, you're you're you're you're going to be benefiting from it. So that's a good place to be. So okay, so this happens. You're up. By the way, did you ever meet with the president? Have you and the president ever met or no? >> No. Uh the I saw him in person in Davos where he was on stage and I was in the audience. We did we didn't say hi. We did I didn't get >> this? >> Uh this is this is this last year. This is that was last year. >> Oh, this is Davos last year. Okay. >> The this year actually was in January, right? >> This is the one where Newsom was standing on the side and didn't let him give one of the talks. The the controversy there. Did Did you see Newsom? >> No, I did I didn't see Newsom anyway. >> of the Democratic guys approach you and recognize you? Did they come up to you? >> Uh no. I at least they didn't talk they didn't come and talk to me. I was only there for one day. I was only there for like you know >> Did you speak or was it just a networking dinner conversations? >> Uh I was there for dinner and I spoke on stage for I was on a panel and then and then I had the Andrew Sorkin's interview with CNBC. And so I did those three things. I I fly I flew out. >> Is this it? This is Freeman financial news. You know, he was a >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was This was outside. So the sun the sun like my glasses >> Glasses look good on you, buddy. I got to tell you that you look good with those glasses on. >> glasses. >> Is it? Except that one the >> It's the same. In the sun it turns darker. >> Okay. Well, that dark look is a good look. >> [laughter] >> You got a you got a James Bond looking you know, look going on there for you. But by the way, you want to play that Merrick Garland clip? I just love the way he says it. Like he is celebrating your fall, right? Is this it, Rob? >> I believe so. >> Okay, go forward. >> Binance has agreed to plead guilty to willfully violating the Bank Secrecy Act, knowingly failing to register as a money transmitting business. >> Go to the part about the biggest fine. It was a 7-second clip. This is like billions of dollars. >> I wanted to get to the clip. Okay, you don't have the clip. It's okay. We don't have to show it. So He's not a very much liked guy. He did a lot of weird things when he had power and he was one of those guys that wanted to use his power to take down different guys and if you weren't willing to help them out and you took their biggest donor, I wouldn't be surprised if he got a call from somebody to say let's target CZ. Not saying the stuff that you guys did, you know, didn't probably didn't break a couple laws that we have cuz cuz of the transfers that was taking place. But still, you could tell they were interested in targeting a guy like you. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Till the last minute they wanted to protect SBF. >> Sorry. >> You were going to say something. >> Yeah, no. They even attacked President Trump, right? President President Trump got charges criminal charges for bringing a document to his bathroom. Yeah. >> Yeah, no. They tried it. They tried to They tried to destroy the the president and and the good thing about the market is like you said, the Constitution. It's interesting for you to say how powerful the Constitution is to go from there to where it's at today. Relationship with Trump is there's a conversation about the fact that you helped them with a technology that they have. What is the relationship with you and the family? >> This basically no relationship. Um so um there's no business relationship. There's no commercial relations that >> What is that company's name? There's a company name that they talk about. Something Liberty, right? >> World Liberty Finance. >> Yeah, what's the relationship with you and World Liberty Liberty Finance? >> We don't have any Nothing. We don't have any relationships. Um uh yeah. I think they when they said So, World Liberty Finance issues a stablecoin called USD 1. Uh and USD 1 is deployed on BNB chain, which is a public blockchain that anyone can deploy a smart contract. The smart contract is open source. And BNB chain's developers probably give them like a a sample code, uh which is, you know, pretty much publicly available. So, um that's probably what they were referring to, uh making up a story saying, "And this has nothing to do with Binance. Um so, we don't have any stake in USD 1 or World Liberty Finance. They don't have a stake in us. Um there were reports about, you know, there was a deal about, you know, giving me some equity of Binance or Binance US to get a part. There's no such transactions. They don't own any uh equity in any of those entities. >> Yeah, that's a story that you'll see all over the place, the fact that, "Hey, there was this was a back deal. You helped them out. This was their way in exchange for uh the partner that you got, etc. etc. Uh but but let me ask you the next question here. >> Yeah. >> In regards to Satoshi Nakamoto, okay? Article comes out recently. Okay, I don't know if you I'm sure you saw that. Where it says Adam Back Is it Adam uh uh uh >> Adam Back, yeah. >> Adam Back. Adam Back is Satoshi Nakamoto. Now, he comes out and he says that's not true. But by the way, people have been saying this about him for 15 years. So, it's not like it's a new thing. The the typical name is he's one of them. And then they'll talk about how Finney is another one. And there's a couple other guys. Do you care to know who it is? >> I prefer not to know. >> Okay, so you're part of the camp that says I prefer not to know. >> Yeah, I think it's better if we don't know who he is and he doesn't come back he doesn't come back into become active again. >> Do you think there's a chance that's it's him? >> There's always a chance. There's always a chance that it's Hal Finney. I think Hal Finney probably have a higher chance. >> Than Adam Back, really? >> I think so, yeah. Um Yeah. Um Hal Finney would have make a lot of will make a lot of sense because he I think he passed away in 2013 or 2014. Yeah, early, right? And his background matches and he went away, basically, right? So all of that matches what what we're seeing. Um if it's Adam Back, then he's very good at hiding his trail digitally, which is extremely difficult in today's world. Um but Adam is a big contributor in the in the in the in the in the crypto ecosystem. So there's a chance it could be him that he just does a very good job of concealing it. Um it'd be fantastic, but um I Yeah, there could be a a few other potential people, too. But >> Your number one pick is it could be Hal Finney. >> If I were to pick one person, that would be Hal Finney. But it could it could be a group of people, it could even be software from the future. Who knows? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I saw you saying that software [laughter] from the future came back AI, you know, agent and kind of wrote the thing >> Yeah. >> uh to create this form. uh uh uh In regards to uh Adam Back and Hal Finney, when you hear the stories with who could be behind it, you know, they said there was 10 people that exchanged emails. About 10 people that could know it. M- These 10 people, can you imagine getting 10 people that none of them want to go tell the market that they know exactly who it is? You got to respect these 10 people. >> I think it was 10 people who have email exchanges with Satoshi, but they don't they don't even know, though. >> So even the 10 don't know who it is. >> I don't think so. >> Cuz he used a pseudonym so nobody would know. >> They just received an email, they can respond, but they never met him. They don't They don't [laughter] about him. >> You can't like track it >> where it's coming from to see who it is. I mean >> Yeah, yeah. >> you know. So, okay. So, you you have enough money right now to do a lot of weird things, but you choose not to, right? You don't have Ferraris. >> No. >> You don't have Lambos. >> No. >> You don't have crazy watches. >> No. >> Do you have crazy art collection? >> No, I don't I don't >> You don't >> I don't have a >> So, what what what's Is there anything that you'd want to own physically you know, with the money that you have that you'd say, "I wouldn't mind owning such and such." Is there any interest in anything physical? >> Um I own functional things. Um I like No, I like enjoy enjoy outdoor sports. You know, I feel like no, I can still enjoy them for maybe one or two decades and then I'll get too old. So, might as well enjoy them. Like I like skiing, snowboarding, um uh windsurfing, kitesurfing. Um and just other than that, just no. I I I have a very small home gym, um like much smaller than this studio and I just do some weights. Uh and then the rest of time I just enjoy hanging out with the family. Uh so, I don't have any crazy obsessions, uh but some I'm not a As I said earlier, I'm not a like pure minimalist. Um I spend I have a bunch of junk in my in my home. Uh but they're not that expensive. >> you drive? >> Uh I have a Toyota van. I actually have a Lexus van now. Uh >> You have a You upgraded. >> Uh yeah. >> What did you splurge? [laughter] You bought a Lexus van? >> Uh the the Lexus van is a new one. Yeah, this one. >> You drive a Lexus van? >> Uh yeah. Uh well, I usually sit in the back. I have a driver. Uh so, uh that's another luxury. Um but the this van has a seat that goes flat. That's my requirement for a car. >> Uh >> Cuz I have a back I have a back My back is not so good. So, I like to like when I especially on longer trips, if I drive from like you know, Dubai to Abu Dhabi, etc. like for an hour >> Yeah. >> I like to lay down flat. Uh that's my requirement, but I'm happy with the van. I I actually like um until very recently, I've never I don't think I've ever sat in a Lambo yet. >> Stop it. >> I don't think I've ever I've sat in a Ferrari a couple of In my friend's Ferrari. >> Never sat in a Lambo or Ferrari Lambo yet. >> I don't think I've ever sat in a >> No interest. >> My another friend of mine has a has a Porsche. I sat in it. It's like very uncomfortable. It's like you got to It's it's >> Yeah, these crazy people that drive Porsches, right? They've lost their minds. >> And they drive super fast. It's scary. >> to drive fast? Like who wants Yeah, you get your license suspended, reckless driving. Get your act together, right, people? >> Yeah, so it's like for me I enjoy even when I do auto sports like kite surfing, I don't go very fast. I'm scared of hitting the water like you know really hard. I just chill, right? I'm I'm here >> How big is the house you live in? >> The house is decent. It's like I I don't know how to convert >> 20,000 square foot house? Is it like >> It's about 20,000 square foot. >> Okay, so it's a good house you got. So at least you got a nice house. >> Yeah, but the house is like 15 years old and the water leaks in my >> [laughter] >> in my living room like right beside the the the table there's like two like stains on the on the floor of the water leak >> Yeah. From the second floor. Doesn't bother you? >> I would wish that it doesn't leak all the time, but it happens. But it's functional. I got a I got a lot of rooms. I got like eight or nine rooms. So just good for a large family. But it's it's not a fancy like it's not a fancy house. >> So you you you don't sit there and say, "Hey, you know like these guys I'm going to go buy one of the last 38 remaining T-Rex skeletons that are going between 25 to That's not you. You're not going to go buy a copy of the Constitution that is you know it's been >> I don't collect art. I don't collect anything. I don't collect stuff. And like no, even yeah, so I don't I'm just not a collector. Yeah. >> Wow. What's the craziest thing you splurged on? Anything? >> Not nothing too crazy. Nothing too Yeah, I nothing too crazy. >> Yeah. Wow. So it's it's kind of weird because you know for for the average person like you know what? If I if I win the lottery, I'm going to buy this. I'm going to buy that. I'm going to buy that. >> I guess you know if you ask that that detailed question, Um, I do fly private. Right, which is quite expensive. Uh, so but I I don't want to go through the airport. I get recognized and then people want to talk to you on the airplane the whole way. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so for the privacy and the security I I do I do fly private. >> Do you fly it or you bought you bought a jet? >> Uh, I had I think I have a long le- I actually my is I have a long lease on a jet or something. My through a company, yeah. >> Yeah, so and then you've said something where you know of of your wealth at the end you're going to give 99% of it away. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Why would you give it away? >> I don't think I can spend more than 1% myself. Uh, so uh, and I want to use money for I think money's money is a enabler uh, for you to well, take care of yourself and then do impactful stuff. I think we get a lot of intrinsic reward when we can do positive stuff for our society. Basically well, we came, we contributed and then we we leave. Um, so I yeah, so um, I think you know, um, I should try to make the money to uh, to to work. It's actually very hard work to >> Give it away. >> to make money to do positive things. Uh, to make the maximum positive impact. >> I read this book on uh, legacy planning, estate planning. And it said one of the worst things you can do at the end of your life is give the money to charity because what ends up happening is the charity you may you know, the people at the time you may support but the boards change and the values change and then eventually they could be putting money into causes that you never supported. Like Henry Ford started a charity back in the days. And he because I think in the late 30s, early 40s, I think Roosevelt announced that they want to take 70% of your estate when you die and you know, because they needed the money all the stuff that was going on. So he's like, we got to make some adjustments. They started a charity. And then he goes from three people, him and his, you know, they're making the main decisions and then he decides to add a board of nine. And then all of a sudden he starts noticing the money they're putting into he's like, I never supported stuff like this. Well, you no longer have control over it. So, the book's entire premise is never ever leave your money in the hands of charity because when leaders change, the types of people that work for charity typically don't share common values with the creator with God like you. So, you're going to have a hard time. You're young right now, so your money's going to be a lot of money. You probably by the time you're done, you're going to be a trillionaire. So, where that money's going to go to? It's a scary thought given a charity and they put the money in places you may not agree with. >> Actually, I agree with you that I actually hope to give that money away while I'm alive. >> Okay. [laughter] Cuz you know who they are. That's great. Yeah, I'm with that because maybe building a museum, schools, you know, universities, something's like Uh uh you ever been to uh Uh what is that museum in LA off the four or five freeway? The The Getty Center? You ever been to the Getty Center? You know that? >> have been there 20 years ago. >> Yeah, me too. I've been there 20 years ago. I've been there. And this guy J. Paul Getty when he died, he created a museum that people can go to for free with the most amazing collection there. And I think the dividends or whatever he makes off the money pays for it. So, at least that is a cause, right? But unfortunately, if you had a museum, it would be an empty museum cuz you don't collect things. >> No, I don't. >> So, if [laughter] we created a car museum, there would be no cars in it. There'd be a Lexus van in there. They would say, "This is CZ's van from Lexus that you >> [laughter] >> Last question for you. So, you you got all these things and I'm curious I'm curious to know how you're going to answer this. You got all these things in the world that people want to know about, you know, you have money to be able to get answers to a question. If you could use your resources to find out one thing that is not public to the world, what would it be? >> Ooh, that's a That's an interesting one. That's That's already known by other people. >> Not known. >> But people know like governments know, societies know, but it's not to the public. Could be assassinations, could be events that took place. Could be, you know, you you obviously said earlier you're not interested in knowing Satoshi. You could know anything, one fact, moon, anything. What would it be? >> I think I will probably want to know how the golden the gold 1971 when we switched off the gold standard. What was Nixon what happened kind of behind the things there? What was the discussions? >> Out of everything that's what you would want to know. >> Uh oh, this is a pretty I've only like had like 5 seconds to think about it. >> Yeah, but that's pretty massive. That's one of the things we talk about a lot. Why that? >> Well, it's very relevant to our industry. I want to I want to know like what were the factors forcing sort of the decision to move away from the gold standard. I actually kind of know the background, but I kind of want to know like what were the real discussions. The background is you know gold not enough gold, right? So, they want to move it off and the government can print fiat money. But I want to know like the sort of what the conversations were etc. just to get the like >> [laughter] >> Like authentic discussions that happened at the time, yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, it would be a Do you think it was a good move or bad move? Or necessary move like you didn't have a choice. >> It's a bit of both to be honest. I think this pros and cons for that move, but I think uh it just staying on the gold standard probably will limit the economic economic development. I think some quantitative easing some inflation is okay is good is also maybe necessary. But the problem is inflation always goes too high too quickly and then uh um so this is is is a is a balance. I'm not saying like you know zero inflation is the best uh uh but usually when this kind of things first happen very similar to the to the sort of a trust of foundations or a charity that you're talking about. When these things first start they always with good intentions, but with time like you know the board changes and the mission moves and then people get get more greedy and then it's just a poorly managed. Um so that's just that's just human nature that things evolve things evolve and often degrade over time. So I don't think it's a bad move at the time particularly but it's hard to maintain that over time. >> Yeah, I mean you know like you say you're limited right on how much you can lend because of limited supply. So we almost had to get off of it but once we got off of it fiat what is it backed by a promise and this goes to the Peter Schiff arguments right? This is why gold this is why gold this is why gold and um >> Yeah, but gold has a lot of limits right? So like you know he you don't know whether it's real or not it's not divisible it's not transportable. >> when you handed it to him he's like I don't even know if this is real because I don't know who minted it. Remember when he said that to you? >> [laughter] >> He didn't even trust I don't even know if this is real gold. >> Yeah. >> And like no I bought a pay but you paid $130,000 for it at the time whatever the price was $4,200. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You're right. So and by the way even with Nixon with the whole China deal at the time cuz China was weak. >> Yeah. >> You know it was number eight nine 10 in GDP and Russia was at the top and they were worried about USSR and communism and what if so let's strengthen these guys. And I look at China now. >> Yeah. >> Do you do you you Do you go back to China often or no? >> Very like I haven't been to China for the last seven years or longer. >> or no reason? >> Um well China's not China have not well China actually is explicit said that they don't allow cryptocurrency exchange businesses. Right? So China's banned crypto exchanges and if I go back people would know I'm back people want to have meetings with me people want to have chats. I don't want to be that seen like you know promoting >> You're not worried about safety like if you go and they'll keep you there that's not your concern. >> Uh I'm not sure to be to be very frank. >> [laughter] >> Probably not a risk worth taking. >> Yeah, so so like like I don't try to cause problems for people I don't try to go where like I'm not welcome potentially. Like I think I'm welcome to go. Like I think as a just as a traveler etc. But people will want will want to meet with me. They will want to talk about crypto. They will want me to go on stage, do a talk. And I I yeah. Yeah. >> You talked to Jack Ma at all or no? >> No, I've never talked to Jack Ma. I talked to other people very senior at Alibaba. Yeah, so but I never talked to Jack Ma. >> Really? You I thought you guys would have talked for sure. >> There was a couple There was a couple potential chances. You know, he visits Masayoshi Masayoshi Son in in in Japan. We missed each other by a day. We like Binance Japan >> That'd be an interesting sit-down. >> That'd be very interesting sit-down. >> If you did an event like in Singapore, you know, uh and for him to fly out, that would be an interesting I think the world would show up to entertain that conversation. >> For sure, but I think Jack Ma has also become much more low-key. >> He has. >> And so he's he's >> That happens when you talk a little bit and you say stuff about the government. They they may silence you. >> Uh for whatever reason he's not much more low-key. So I don't think he's going to do too He seems that he's not doing too many public talks etc. >> Do you think there was a conversation behind closed doors say, "You better relax and not criticize us?" >> Most likely. >> [laughter] >> So you never know for sure. >> Yeah. Because he was everywhere. There was a time that he was one of the main entrepreneur voices. >> Yeah. >> And his stuff would go viral all the time. >> Yeah. >> And he was a likable guy. He was a guy that you he had a sense of humor, you know, personality. >> So >> Yeah. >> It's interesting he's been a little bit quiet. Uh Would would China look at you as they made you in their eyes? Cuz you were born there. Is it kind of like, "Hey, we made you. We taught you our values and principles. Without the way of our living, you wouldn't be where you are right now." Is that kind of how they would view it? >> I don't think so. I left at 12. So uh >> You don't think that's the pride? Because the temperament you have is a very good temperament. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um I well when people ask me you know like you know do you identify as you asked right do you do I identify as Chinese or not like ethnicity I'm definitely Chinese but like education culture like you know the way you think about your value system are really built when you're a teenager years so I spent that in Canada. And then after work I was like mostly outside of China right so most of my work styles are thinking is more capitalist capitalism um etc. So my way of doing business is more much more American than Chinese I would say. So um uh yeah so but I know I have many many Chinese friends um but oh there was also another like you know common attack that people try to attack me with is a uh uh because I look Chinese I'm part of the CCP or anything like that that's completely false. It's just >> [laughter] >> You're part of the CCP. >> Yeah this is completely false yeah. I've been away from China for 30 something years. Our business couldn't operate in China. I'm a business guy I'm I'm never political. Yeah so that's that's also yeah so um I don't think China will try to view me as a Chinese business. I think we like we we we we just don't have those touch points. >> But the likelihood of you taking a trip to China next 5 to 10 years probably slim to >> I'm open to it. Like for example if I get if I get invited I will go but I probably wouldn't go unsolicited. >> So if G invited you say hey we would like to have a meeting you'd go. >> Oh yeah of course so if anybody that senior uh invites me I'll I'll go. >> So so so then that means your fear isn't a real high fear that you think if you go there they may not let you leave. >> Oh no no no I'm not feeling that but I don't I visit countries who are pro crypto. So if China says look come in teach help us with the crypto regulations I'll be happy to go. >> And that's why you're in UAE you feel safe being there cuz they're pro crypto that makes you feel safe. >> Uh I feel safe in many countries but I don't spend time in non pro crypto countries because if they're are crypto what am I doing there? I I'm just a sore in their eye. >> CZ, relationship-wise, cuz I'm trying to see the profile that you have with your personality. Are Are Do you have close friends who are very, very well-known people in business, uh uh you know, who are major influencers like relationship with Musk, relationship with guys like that? Are they Would you consider some of those guys your friends? >> Uh yes. Yes. So, I have uh uh friends, mentors, coaches. So, um I I view those guys as more of my mentors. Um so, you know, um uh I have a relationship with Ray Dalio. Um I met with Larry Fink. Both of them wrote quotes for my book. Um and um uh many, many, many, many guys like that. Uh Masa from uh from Japan. Um uh so, many, many guys like that. Um even Eric Schmidt, uh etc. >> phenomenal. >> Uh he he he is is a great guy. And he also he's a He knows all the problems like he went through all the problems we're facing. >> Oh, he's brilliant. Like when when you hear him speak for, you know, five If you get two, three hours of You're going to get smarter on what he Ray's phenomenal. We've had him on as well. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But there's something different about Schmidt, the way he explain explains operating a business. >> Uh uh uh Eric is much more on operations of a business, especially like a platform. Uh I think uh um Ray is much more macroeconomics, countries, debts, national bond bond curves, etc. So, he's much more like even politics, geopolitics, tension, war, money, etc. >> Yeah, he made a video. He made like a 25-minute video on YouTube that's got 40 million views. Hey Rob, can you go to Ray Dalio's YouTube channel? >> Yeah, yeah. That's a It's a It's a >> Am I saying it correctly? >> It's a It's a great It's a It's >> Yeah, it's like it's very rare to make a video that long that gets that many views. >> The cycles? >> Oh, the cycles. Go to videos and then go to most popular. Holy sh- Look at that. Well, it's the second one I was talking about. Does that say 297 million views? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay, You to the second one. Look at the second one. That's the one everybody should watch. How how long is the video? 43 minutes? 40 40 minutes. 165 million views. Principles for dealing with changing world order by Ray Dalio. >> Yeah. The book is extremely good, too. >> Yeah, it is. Uh um We had every one of our executives read Principle when it first came out. Phenomenal book. >> Yeah. >> Uh so, okay. So, Ray Dalio um uh uh Eric Schmidt and Larry Fink from BlackRock. Any relationship with Warren Buffett? Have you guys had interactions or not? >> No, zero interaction. >> Zero. >> Again, he's not that hot on crypto. So, I don't I don't I don't try to actually don't try to go to people who are against crypto or like anti-crypto or skeptical about crypto and try to convince them. I don't I don't I don't try to convince people. I go to people who are willing to learn about crypto, who wants to learn, and I go interact with them. >> Makes sense. Yeah. Makes sense. And then Musk cuz you put a half a million and a half a billion dollars into Twitter when he was going through acquiring it. >> Yeah. >> He was one of the top three four investors, I think, into that. I think uh uh Ellison called him. There's a call that Ellison says, "Hey, yeah, I'll put some money into it, you know, billion dollars." And I think it uh Ellison said, "Yeah, Elon said, 'You should put two billion, not a billion.'" He's like, "Okay, I'll put two billion dollars into it." It was a funny conversation. So, why Musk? Why why supportive of Musk and what he's doing? >> Oh, I think well, um free speech well, we want to That's the my my the book the title of my book is freedom of money, right? So, we want to increase the freedom of money of all people all around the world. To do that, you have to have freedom of speech. Right? So, and to have freedom of speech, you have to have freedom of from slavery first. You have to have physical freedom first. And then you can have freedom of speech, and then you have freedom of information, and then you have freedom of money. So, supporting freedom of speech is really important. I think US has very good um uh freedom of speech laws, uh principles, foundations, etc. Uh and but Twitter or now X is the platform that where everyone quite a lot of the towns global town square discussions happen. So I thought, you know, that's a fairly minimal meaningful cause for a crypto business to support. Um yeah, so that's pretty much it. Yeah. >> Well, if that doesn't happen, you know, the world's a different place. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Because Twitter forced everybody else to be more open to opening up. >> Yeah. >> You know, Facebook, YouTube, everybody. If Elon doesn't do what he does, we're we're in a very different climate today. Very different climate today. People forget how quickly It was just a few years ago the president of the United States was suspended from all social media. >> That's crazy. >> How the hell like the when history books write about this, you know, they're going to be like, wait, they suspended who? The US president. Really? Yes. >> Yeah. >> So it was a big deal when that took place. So the book you want to share with us what some things are going to be in a book. Are we going to get some uh Is there Is there Is your car collection in the book in the middle with pages when you open it up? >> No, I don't have a car collection, right? So >> [laughter] >> yeah, but the book is like a small small snippets of my life and how my perspective of how I saw things over the last I don't know over the last 40 50 years almost. Um so it's it's really honestly how I saw things and how I experienced things. So it's it's small snippets. I'm not a great writer, so it's a very basic simple English. Um and but it's very authentic, I think. It's what I saw. Um so I hope people learn about my myself, my journey, Binance's journey, and also crypto's journey um through through this book. Yeah. >> Yeah, you're super likable. And you're simple, humble, brilliant, even though you don't you know, you don't you don't uh uh uh you make it seem like anybody can start a company and get to 100 billion. You're obviously very brilliant for what you've done and to overcome all the fires that have come your way. So we're going to put the link below for the audience to be able to go support the book Freedom of Money. and I was telling you before you know, the story is a crazy story that maybe one day they'll make a movie about you and we'll be sitting in the theater seeing all the different stories in it. Uh and if that ever happens whatever happens, I want to see the Lexus van in there. I think the Lexus van has to be in there. People have to know and that'll be a big sponsorship from Lexus. Lexus is going to get nice product placement is what they call it, right? In it. >> [laughter] >> CZ, appreciate you for coming down here, truly and honor speaking to you. What a great story. >> Thank you, Patrick. So, thank you for having me. It's a It's a great conversation. >> Anytime. Anytime. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You know, this whole time with Valuetainment and Peopled Podcast started with a phone me and Mario. That's it. And it grew today to, you know, 15 million subscribers almost and 164 full-time employees. And that relationship where you watching us and supporting us wouldn't happen without you. But did you know 51% of you that watch the content are not subscribed to the channel and it would mean the world to us if you could press that subscribe button and notification. Why? It allows us to grow, hire more, do bigger interviews, have a bigger team, and deliver a better product to you. So, if you haven't yet, if you don't mind, press that subscribe button. 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