Tariff War with Canada (American Issues Take One)

[music] Aloha. Welcome to American Issues Take One. I'm Tim Appachel, your host, and today's title is tariff war with Canada, unnecessary fight with US friend and neighbor. My co-host is Jay Fidel, CEO of ThinkTech Hawaii. David Larson, law professor at Mitchen Hamlin School of Law. Chuck Crumpton, mediator extraordinaire for decades, and Ben Davis, law professor at University of Toledo. Welcome one and all. You know, it all started with insults to the Canadian people that Canada would become the 51st state of the United States. Then after that, threats of high percentage tariffs were imposed on Canada. Those tariffs were negotiated down. And then to follow up, uh, not long ago, Mark Carney, prime minister of Canada, gave his famous Davos speech. Soon after that Davos speech, Donald Trump imposed a 50% tariff on $20 billion worth of goods and imports uh on Canada. Mark Carney said that was a a bridge too far and he walked out of the negotiations. We now have a situation where Canada will soon as of September the 8th match dollar fordoll tariffs against the United States and that uh will take place rather shortly. Then Donald Trump's executive order to rename Lake Ontario to Lake USA. And that's where we are today. A tariff war with our friend, neighbor, ally, and second largest trading partner. further adding insults to injury. These tariffs will represent a tax to the American people. I'm going to go to you, Jay, right off the bat, and that is how closely integrated are we to Canada, be it our supply chain, our diplomatic relationships, our military uh relationships. How does this impact our relationship with Canada given these recent tariffs and not to mention insults to our Canadian brothers? We are very close. We have been very close. We've been allies in couple of world wars and more. Um we have been trading and exchanging people and businesses forever. Um there's no country where we have been closer to and which makes it all the more difficult to understand why in the world Trump would do this to Canada. Canada is is so close to us that the [clears throat] damage that he has done is really quite extraordinary and you have to take a deep breath and but Mark Carney does that. He takes a deep breath and he figures out what to do and the people of Canada are behind him. But the damage, okay, that Trump has done is longlasting and it's just part of Trump's destruction of the world order and destruction of relations with our friends and this is really our best friend. So the destruction is enormous and probably unreaptable. So that's what I would start with. Tim, >> let me follow up with this. You had mentioned um the motivation for Donald Trump to do this. You know, for the last 10 years, we've been saying many things that Donald Trump does is a matter of distraction uh to get the public's attention off of a particular issue. Now, the obvious issue would be the failing war with Iran. But what if it was something different? What if it was something like um the the intense media focus on Natalie Hart and and her her seemingly dysfunctional closeness to Donald Trump. Uh is this a distraction or is this a a planned strategy? There was a time when I tried to speculate what why he did things, but I I now I only say he's interested in destroying everything in his past and outside of his past. Um so yes it's probably a distraction uh distracting us from various crazy things that he has been doing um you know to manipulate the press and one of the very interesting things is a a series of discussions on the the court of history on YouTube with Sydney Blumenthal one of his friends who wrote a book about Roy Cohen and and Roy Cohen was a mentor for Trump way back. And what you get by examining this book and that discussion on YouTube is the notion that Trump is playing that same MMO now again the MMO that Roy Conn taught him to play which included distraction. Okay. So what we have here is is a replay. What we have here is a replay of the apprentice also. So if you look and see a you know what the reasons are there are no reasons and b you know maybe it's to increase his own power um but we don't know that and c um it is destructive in every in every bloody way. So I guess I guess my answer to the question is we know the mentoring elements that make him what he does today. Um, but we don't know where he's going with it. We We only know that he's unhinged and a loose cannon and Canada has somehow got to be in his destructive path. There's no good reason for attacking Canada that never was. But he's using Canada for some bizarre reason. And I I mean I I just don't know what it might be because it's just crazy. And I don't I don't have an answer for you on this. >> Well, that is actually a good answer, right? What you just said. So, thank you, Jay. Uh, Ben, what do you see as the most consequential um what is the consequence of this strain relationship with Canada, be it in the form of insults or economic tariff, a tariff war? Uh, what's your read on this one, Ben? The first thing that I would say is uh I just read that the Netherlands moved 86 tons of gold from the US and Canada to the UK. So that sounds pretty significant when the Dutch decide to take their gold out of the US and Canada and put it in the UK. I mean the Dutch are the old Dutch business people are very conservative business people. So I that's an immediate to me indication of a view of the of what is going on here that is or worry about instability instability in the United States but also instability in the nature of the relationship between the United States and Canada on the trade front. >> Let me just jump in real quick on that one point. you know, it was um Mark Carney's Davos speech that basically indicated that the United States was no longer a reliable partner. Do you think there's any correlation to the Davos speech not long ago and the recent form of tariffs of 50% on $20 billion? Is there a tit fort relationship there? >> I think absolutely. Um uh because uh I I think uh the way that uh Trump talks about Canada as being the most difficult people to deal with, you know, that's kind of implicitly recognizing that Carney said very early on, you know, there's a rupture there. And second thing is that uh Carney has uh made it clear that uh you know he's not going to play the kind of plating role that a number of other people tried you know to sort of uh compliment uh Trump uh his ego and all that stuff um as as Canada. That 51st state thing I from what I see up here hit real hard across Canada. Trust me. Um, so I I was looking at a couple things recently that maybe could be helpful from what I can see up here. Uh, one was that Canadian uh, exports to the United States, I think, represent somewhere around 65 to 70% of Canadian exports. So, it's a huge part of the Canadian export business. Right. Trump talks about uh Canada ripping off the United States for $60 billion. But if you take out the oil and gas, the numbers are not really there's actually a surplus the US has. It's the oil and gas part coming down. So there's part of me that keeps thinking that a lot of this is basically sort of how I could call it Venezuela North trying to take control of Canadian uh uh fossil fuels and and and resources uh that Trump wants to do to be dominant across all of the Americas, particularly in North America. The thing about it is that the Canadians are not interested in being a vassal state to the United States. Uh uh they uh you know they know us really well in the United States from a long history and a long border. Okay. And uh they are willing to take some pain if it is going to uh if if they need to. I mean, obviously those tariff increases have an effect on Canadian business, but there's a unity across Canada that I that I see. You know, there's a little bit of shifting here and there, but there seems to be a pretty much a unity to say I think it was 76% of uh Canadians supported Carney walking away and in Quebec 85%. Okay. So, uh, it really is a kind of a unity is that no, we're we're not going to be bullied, uh, by the United States. Um, there's another thing that I was listening to about Canada is, uh, you know, there's a lot of investment going on. There's I think they're going to be building five or six ice breakers here in in Quebec. That's, you know, government project kind of thing. And there's a lot of investment being done in Canada. And then there's kind of systematic review being done of the pipeline for the kinds of jobs that are needed, the kinds of people who need to be trained, the kind of training to get to them. Going back to post-secary education, I mean, they like really are thinking all these things through. What's going on in the United States? Anybody thinking coherently? It's this catches catch can as usual in the United States in terms of worker training and all that stuff. So, you know, and I I don't think there's the kind of unity of purpose in the United States that there seems to be up here. So, uh what I would say is that there's a lot of uh Canadian will. Um there's even a former prime minister is basically saying Canada should not be on the defensive, it should be on the offensive. For example, the entire Arctic up there that the United States likes to call international waters, the Canadians just say, "No, those are territorial waters of Canada. That's the kind of thing that's going on up, you know, and in the Arctic level." So, I think, you know, you have to understand that there is a resoluteness to the Canadians. They absolutely have no interest in being Americans. And uh now the United States seems to be trying to do this is the only thing I'll just end up with this is that you know by raising tariff barriers the kind of idea is that it'll be a market inside the United States with higher prices right and with those higher prices there's higher profit margins for businesses yet and all that stuff so hopefully everybody in the world will come and invest inside the United States um and then of course that means that since those tariffs are paid by Americans well who cares about them right because you know I think it's 10% of Americans uh consume 50% of what's consumed in the United States and the other 90% with the other 50%. Who cares about anyway? We'll replace them with AI and robots and all that. >> One thing that uh that Ben said is very troubling. I'll tell you what it is. Was it the Netherlands, Ben? They decided to pull their gold and put the gold they hold not only from the US but also from Canada into the UK. Now, that's it's a pox on both of your houses. You guys are quibbling and you you that quibbling speaks of instability. And so, we're not going to be part of any of that. We're going to put the gold that we hold from both places, both places into the UK. I mean, they're really, you know, that's really destructive to Canada. I mean, I I favor Canada in all this. I want to see Mark Carney succeed. I want to see him hold Canada together. He'd been doing a good job. on the other hand, you know, his emissary to Canada has been trying to ferment unrest, ferment discord and chaos uh among the the the provinces and so forth. And now we find that that that has actually had an effect in Europe on the Netherlands where they are saying not only are we going to take our gold out of the US, we're going to we're going to take our gold out of Canada. And uh that that means that Trump's efforts to isolate Canada, to to speak ill of Canada, uh to dis, you know, disrupt Canada's relations actually has had some effect. I hate it. I hate that that the Netherlands has done this. Ben, what do you have to say about that? >> The Netherlands would probably be saying it's, you know, it's it's just business, folks. It's just business. There's instability. instability and you know money money money doesn't like instability but um you know on the other hand you got to understand there have been these overtures of Europe towards Canada uh for example the recent meeting of the European Union that happened they invited Canada they invited Carney to be part of that and technically I I do hear people here talk about would Canada join the European Union you have to have to be eligible you have to have a border with a European state. They actually do, which is the Sier Mikolon, which is an island right off of Canada that is part of France. So technically, they might be able to even do that. So this whole Harney vision of middle powers coming together kind of thing. Uh that's possible. But, you know, there are people who are working very hard to get uh um uh uh separatist movements going inside of Canada from the United States, you know, out in Alberta and all that. There's a couple referenda going up in Alberta. But what's really interesting is the Alberta referenda. Um it basically is saying basically, can we have more autonomy? Can we enter into discussions with the other provinces and the federal government about sort of having more autonomy? And I think in the context of the the ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada called in Quebec was huge advisory opinion about the separatist movements in Quebec. Basically the view is that that is a constitutional amendment vision. So we can do this. That can happen. You can have more flexibility in the context of an amendment to the Canadian Constitution. Now the thing about the Canadian Constitution, I understand, is that it has to be agreed by all the provinces, all the provinces and the federal government. It's not like in the states where you need three quarters of the states or something like that for an amendment to the constitution. It needs all the provinces there. So you know there it dialogue is a big part of what goes on in this country. Thank you, Ben. David, hey, I want to um ask you the question I asked Ben, and what what kind of consequences do you see on the horizon with our relationship with Canada? Uh and secondly, because you are a border state with Canada, what are you hearing from folks in your community? >> Couple of things. Um first thing is it's just so disappointing. Um like many Americans, I have a great fondness for Canada. Um, when I was growing up, uh, my father and I would take flying trips, uh, into Canada for fishing, um, which were wonderful memories. Um, as I got a little older, I would spend, uh, summer vacations, um, in Vancouver. And I came to the conclusion that two of my favorite cities in the world outside the US are Vancouver and Barcelona. Just a wonderful city. It's a wonderful place. And I think there's millions of Americans that have [clears throat] Americans that have wonderful memories of Canada. So, it's so distressing and disappointing that we have uh a president who's creating a crisis uh that just isn't necessary. And it's kind of the pattern, I think, in his global behavior of continually creating crises that are that are unnecessary. I mean, the here's the fact. We have a border, if we include Alaska, of over 5,500 miles with Canada. Could you imagine if we had to defend that border? um militarily um we would never have become the country we've become and the reason we are so prosperous is because we've had this tremendous relationship with Canada and we haven't had to devote those kinds of resources to defending this massive long border and people have to keep that in mind that relationship is critical to to our own prosperity and what's happening now really impacts that negatively. Um so so it's really disappointing. Um getting back to the the question of tariffs themselves uh as we know um we had the international um emergency powers act tariffs early in this first term for for uh the president and the United States Supreme Court in February 2026 said that act does not give you the power to impose these tariffs. And now suddenly we had billions of dollars that have been collected unlawfully creating all kinds of a crisis as to how are those going to be refunded? Who's going to get them? That has not been settled. It's creating a lot of chaos. So, so he didn't have the power to do that. So this time he's going to take a different route. not the same statute, but coin back to to basically Great Depression legislation, the um the tariff act of 1930 um section 338 that says that when the president finds qualifying discrimination, he may proclaim additional duties sufficient to offset the burden or disadvantage subject to a ceiling of 50%. And now he's declared it's going to be 50 50% tariffs. Well, okay, we've got a problem again. Um, what the statute says that you can declare tariffs up to a ceiling of 50% that are sufficient to offset the identified burden or disadvantage, but there's never been an identification of any burden or disadvantage. Um, he just went to the top ceiling of 50%. So right there I think these tariffs again are subject to significant challenge and really a strong challenge that that required assessment of what level of tariffs do we need to offset the burden has never been done. >> I'm confused as to what specific advantages Canada has been taking on the United States for decades. That's that's his mantra is that Canada's been taking advantage of the United States for decades. Um, do you have any sense of what specifics Donald Trump could be referring to? Because I certainly don't. >> Canada's been flooding flooding Minnesota with hockey sticks. You know, that's that's that's a that's a global issue for sure. Um, uh, yeah, again, it's just it's blustering and exaggeration and um, you know, it's just it just seems that is the modus operande is is Christ's creation. um in places where we don't need crisis. And uh so no, I think that a lot of what he said simply isn't true. Um it's an exaggeration. Um you know, he's trying to inflame his base, which he has been successful at doing, but frankly, that base is starting to turn away. Um people are getting so so disgusted with what's happening with the economy, the fact that prices are going to go up, they continue to go up. And every time we put on tariffs, prices will go up. consumers pay for tariffs. And um I I I I'm I'm kind of my optimism is growing that maybe enough people are getting dissatisfied with the way things are developing that maybe we'll have some successes in November. >> It's like 57% are not appreciative of Donald Trump's uh recent tariff, you know, that have been imposed. Um only about 20 25% think that's a good idea. So clearly the numbers are not there for him to support. Um not only the the 50% on 20 billion, but now he's going to retaliate with another tariff on auto parts and automobiles which really will devastate the the you know the secondary market for automobiles and certainly trying to maintenance and service them uh by putting that kind of tariff percentage on something that's important as automobiles. As Jay mentioned, what's what's so frustrating about this is both countries are going to be hurt by this. You know, that that producers, manufacturers, importers, they're all going to be hurt by this unnecessarily. Um and uh and that is that is so discouraging. Um, I I just think we we need to again appreciate the fact that our relationship with our northern border has been so essential to the development of prosperity of our country that we need to protect that and rather than destroy it. And that's what's happening now. >> Chuck, where do you where do we go from here with our our neighbor, our ally, our friend? Do you do you see um things simmering down or do you think um that the temperature is going to rise with uh with these trade tariff wars? Your thoughts? One of the reasons that's a good question is it directs us to take a look at how are these recent distractions and projections against Canada, against others different from those maybe earlier in Trump's second term? One of the big differences is they're not landing. The polls for Trump, no matter whose polls they are, are going down. And they're going down cataclysmically, his choices of who to attack, who to distract with, who to project up on are not working with the people. That's also demonstrating a second major gap is the press that pays attention to these distractions and projections is no longer having the level of attention and influence on the people [clears throat] that they might have had before or he might have thought they had before. It's just it's not registering. And then third, the timing is really really poor. He's now two months in change from actually barely two months from the midterm November elections in which those choices, those impacts, those influences that his previous tactics of projection and distraction theoretically were working for him for clearly aren't. Does he have time to make it up? What's going to be the effect? That's why he's had to resort to the other tactics, the gerrymandering, the interference with mail voting, and all of the other things that he's doing, the [clears throat] threats to send ICE to polls, all those things to try and interfere with the elections themselves. And certainly he will try to call them into question when they don't go well for him as it's quite apparent they will not. >> So if you're a Canada, are you going to wait till after the midterms to um try to settle their tariff differences or do they try to do it because it's a burden on their economy as well as ours? It's a really good question, but I don't know that Canada has the ability to get Trump to change course within that two-month time frame before the midterms. So, [clears throat] it may be wiser for Canada to do what they've been doing for the last year and a half, which is to shift their emphasis to relationship building with Europe and with other countries. They should also look at South America and maybe Central America, maybe Africa as potential trade and diplomatic relationship building sites as well. when China was imposed, you know, the soybean tariffs and those markets changed. China went elsewhere to find their soybeans and the markets for American farmers uh dissolved, dissipated, dissolved. And the problem is, are we in the same boat with Canada? Will they start looking for their new trading partners and leave us, you know, in the dust? Well, one of the things that makes that a really good question is Trump essentially leaves them no alternative but to do that. There is no recourse back to him to get a better deal. And even if they got it this week, it could be gone again next week and in a much worse position. So there's no reliability. The destabilization that Ben [clears throat] refers to is really the destabilization of the entire relationship and basis of trust. And unfortunately for Trump and for the American industries, including the auto industries that establish lots of auto manufacturing and distribution plants in Canada, they don't have any other choice. >> Good point. I think that concept of the the relationship is paramount and that's the question Jay I want to ask you is if Trump left tomorrow the office of president of the United States where does the relationship with Canada go from there um is is is there going to be a long process of healing and and repair or the fact that Trump is no longer president um does that change things instantly when that eventually happens >> cuz uh if you left tomorrow we'd have another Republican there uh who may be sworn to uh continue Trump's policies. But in any event, I feel that the damage and I I know some Canadians, I know Ben Davis, for example, um who who feel that this is permanent, that what has happened here is so outrageous, so profound that Humpty can never be put back together again. Not in our lifetimes. I mean, sure, there'll be efforts, but first, Trump is not going to make a deal at all here. Never. Trump and Carney are oil and water. Not to use those terms. [laughter] But there's never going to be a deal here. Never going to be a deal that will satisfy Canada or for that matter that will satisfy Trump. The second thing I want to point out is yes, I mean they are they have no choice but to look to other markets. So they are doing the rational business-like thing. They're looking to Europe. They're looking to China. [clears throat] They should be looking to the global south. Uh they should be abandoning the US. And once they establish new trading arrangements, new, you know, new best friends or friends in general, they're they're going to be locked into that. But, you know, you can't walk away from that. You have to promise people that you are reliable and stable and when you make a deal with Canada, you know, it's a long-term thing. One other point I want to mention is this. This is all happening as everything that Trump does is happening in a goldfish bowl. And so um you know what we what we have here is the whole world is is watching this stroke for stroke tit for tat if you will and they are they are finding it completely outrageous. And what they are concluding I don't know where I put Netherland the Netherlands in on this but what they are concluding is you can't make a deal with Trump. Trump is going to destroy all relationships everywhere. If he would destroy the relationship we have had with Canada for hundreds of years, what is he going to do with all these other countries? It does not pay to try to have a relationship with him. You can't count on the United States any more. So, we're not coming back. Um, this is permanent. So I think people are watching this and people everywhere watching this and and finding um that this is not something that can be fixed. So um all in all I would I would say that they're they're right the Canadians are right to move on. It's changing the world order, the world trade order, but also the world order in general. And the US will never have the relationship that it has had with Canada. This is a very sad moment. >> Let me take this uh that comment Ben to you. Uh we do share not just you know trade imbalances or you know the tariff war but also we share a lot of military um cooperation with Canada. NORAD comes to mind. Um certainly military intelligence comes to mind. And to what degree is our military going to be compromised if we don't have cooperation from Canada and vice versa? I mean it's uh it's been a shared uh relationship for for military purposes. Your thoughts about that Ben? >> I would [clears throat] agree with uh all all who have spoken before. Um in on the military front I would say already there is a question of intelligence sharing that there is a clear fear among our allies about sharing intelligence with the United States that will go to Russia right away and and those levels of of you know like the five eyes and all that stuff kind of where we you know really top level you know Bletchley I mean the old real sort of deep intelligence stuff right there's all is all there's a question there is a question in every intelligence service probably in the allied world and military if we tell the Americans something does it go back to Russia and does it go back to China and North Korea for that matter >> listen to your statement how pathetic is that you even think is a real possibility. >> I've read that, you know, those kind, you know, you have the Munich's conference and all that stuff. So, so then, you know, if we talk in terms of North American defense, um I I would think that that question mark would be somewhere in the thinking of anyone who was not American uh in the Canadians. It would have to be there. Now you remember after Trump's first term, Biden came out and he said, "America is back." Remember this to the world. And I distinctly remember Europeans saying, "Yes, but for how long?" And now here we are where you have the prime minister of Canada says it's kind of looking like doing a deal with the United States. It's signed. What was it? And signed in pencil >> and it wasn't a number two pencil. Uh, okay. Thank you, Ben. Um, David, you know, you you're you're in the legal profession. You're a professor. You've been a negotiator. What solution potential solutions do you see in the future to try to soothe our our conflicts with Canada? Do you see anything as um a viable way out of this? Oh, touche. the personal attacks. Um, the fact that we've devolved to that level. Um, that just has to stop. Um, you know, this back and forth insulting is just a terrible thing. Um, you know, we are so integrated with Canada in so many different ways. I'm a big baseball fan. You got the Toronto Blue Jays. You know, hockey Minnesota is the state of hockey. Um, we got American hockey teams. looking at Canadian hockey teams. Um, you know, I think that the emotional connections can actually be revived. Um, uh, cuz I think they're very deep. Um, but the that, but the [clears throat] point Jay made is that as you reach out globally and you begin to create new legal relationships and trade relationships, those are not going to be one-year deals. Those are going to be long-term deals. And so, you know, you're you're still my friend and I like talking with you and I'll I'll play sports with you, but I'm out trading with you now because I'm locked into this other deal and I'm locked in the other deal for 10 years. Um, you know, so so that those kinds of things would be very difficult to undo and uh we need to be attentive to that that there's going to be a long-term cost to these relationships that we cannot recover from quickly. There's an old kind of theory is that those who you trade with tend not to be those who you go to battle with and uh you know slow strong trading partnerships result in strong military allies which we've had with Canada for all these you know many decades and you know centuries actually. Um, I think that's a concern that would be on my mind as we move forward if if we start losing those trades relationships. Um, does that spill out into other areas? So, all right. Uh, David, thank you. Uh, Chuck, last question before we go to final thoughts. You're a mediator. You've done it for most of your life. Uh, do you see anything on the for the forefront or the horizon that could um lower the temperature between this conflict between Canada and the United States? >> I don't presently because the guy you've got at the negotiating table to the exclusion of everyone else is exactly the wrong person. I mean, he he holds himself out as the guy who makes the best deals. When's the last deal he's actually made that's really stuck? that's had any benefit for the the US at all. That would take a while for somebody to come up with an answer to. And where are the deals that he's initiated that have totally crashed and burned literally? So, [clears throat] the one area the one area where there might be room if if he got out of the way and let the American businesses do what they've been doing for the last several decades, negotiate their own relationships and arrangements and trade deals and land deals and exchanges and transportation with Canada and with other countries. Those are the negotiators. Those are the people who bring something to the table, who have something to offer. That was the basis of how those deals got made. Trump didn't make those deals. American automakers and American construction companies and others made those deals because there was benefit to both. That's what mediators do is put people together for mutual benefit. That's exactly the opposite of Trump's negotiating style and it's why it's doomed to failure every single time. >> Excellent point. Uh let's go to final thoughts. We're out of time. John, I'll go to you first. Your final thoughts, please. >> I find myself in a difficult spot where I hear the Canadian prime minister and I tend to find what he and his government says is credible. And I hear my American president and his administration and I don't believe a word of what they say. That is in my head at this point. And there's nothing that you can they can do that could change how I feel about how or how I understand what they say because usually a day or two later I find out that in fact that was just smoke being blown at me about this that or the other and that is a you know and I'm just an ordinary guy just imagine at the level of sophisticated people who can actually you know get research done for themselves to check things out and all that in our in trading partners around the world who can, you know, double check all of that in a second. It it's a it's a it's a devastating state of of play for any kind of negotiation. Uh you you feel like the United States appears to be like the guy who is always going to stiff you when you negotiate with him. He's always going to stiff you. So what do you do when you're dealing with the guy who is always going to stiff you? That's that's the way it looks and that's what makes it so hard. Now September 8th, right after Labor Day, you will have these Canadian tariffs that will go on uh for the same amount, the same $20 billion. You know, this is back to the old kind of trade wars that we learned about in economics 101 is what led to that depression back in the 30s, remember? Uh so it's a tough tough tough time but where you don't believe one side it's really difficult to to see what the way out is. >> Well I know one thing when you negotiate something both parties have to feel like they got a benefit out of it and if one doesn't feel that way then it's a bad it's a bad negotiation. So good point Ben thank you David to you your final thoughts. >> Does Canada have any leverage here? Well, you know, maybe they do. You know, when they're going to come with their September tariffs, maybe they target, um, manufacturers in Ohio, um, and Texas and Florida, maybe they have targeted tariffs that damage Trump's strongholds. Um, I think that that'd be a great strategy and something they're probably thinking about. Um uh my other final thought is that you know if you've ever wondered whether you should vote, you've got to get out and vote. And as you prepare to go out and vote, you have to understand and anticipate that there's there are going to be obstacles that you may have never seen before. Um uh and you just have to be prepared for that. You have to be committed to voting and understand that it might be more difficult than this year than it's been in the past. But that don't don't let that stop you because um we've talked about what can we do to change things. Well, you know, changing our congressional representatives and um it's one of the things we can do and hopefully we can do that in November. >> Good point. And uh to add on to that, vote early, don't wait. So, thank you very much. Appreciate it, Chuck. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think Bened [clears throat] have made really good points and we're coming into the midterms with Trump [clears throat] and his allies on a really destructive downward spiral both domestically and internationally. We've got an opportunity as long as people are prepared to protect and defend the election and its results. So maybe a message can come out of that that will point for Trump's last two years as a direction that will force some level of negotiations. >> All righty. Thank you very much, Chuck. Jay, you get the final word on this and uh let it fly. >> Well, Chuck, I really agree with a lot of what you were saying, you know, about the fact that Trump has never made a deal that worked. Okay. Um but what he has done is he has destroyed institutions all over the place. Not only in this country as a matter of law or social policy, everything you can quote me. Everything that he has done has destroyed things and everything that he has done internationally has destroyed things. So it's not a question of whether it's it's more than a question of whether he's ever made a deal. He's everything he has done has been destructive. And this is a really good example of destroying something that is very important to the US. So, I mean, I blame him 1,000% for this instability we now have with Canada. Um, and I and I am very concerned that it will hurt both sides. I certainly agree, David, that um this is going to hurt the US and that people are going to turn away from Trump and they're going to vote against him because they are going to be damaged profoundly not only at the border in the border states, but all over the country. this this uh this kind of destructive, you know, behavior is going to hurt everyone, including everybody here on this show. Watch what I say. This is, you know, it's it's part of his destructive MMO. On the other hand, David, you and I had a show, some counter discussion a few months ago about the midterms, and you and others here on the show keep assuming that there will be midterms. As Chuck said, there's lots of indications that he is going to try to undermine the midterms. And the best we can hope for is chaos in the midterms and and litigation after the midterms and and confusion around the midterms. So, it's not so easy if all these people who have been damaged vote against him or try to vote against him. Bottom line is there's no easy solution in the country to deal with what he's doing and there's a fair chance that he is going to get away with it. Watch this space. All righty. You know, this is an important topic. I'm glad we took the time to discuss it. I want to thank my guests and my co-host for their excellent insights and their excellent comments. I'd like to thank Jay Fidel, Ben Davis, David Larson, and Chuck Crumpton. The title of this show has been tariffs war with Canada unnecessary fight with US friend and neighbor. This is American issues take one and I'm Tim Aachelli your host and won't you join us in a couple weeks and until then aloha. >> [music]