Talking About Endings - Puppets in the Green Mountains

Good afternoon everybody. Welcome to the second panel of our festival. I was so I was just so full and inspired after the last panel discussion. So I'm really excited to keep talking and hearing about how uh how this continues into the next uh step of the festival. There's one more panel tomorrow at 12:30. So um come out for all three and get the full arc of the whole thing. I I also want to welcome any online viewers and say a big thank you to Fact TV and to Howell Round for helping us to distribute this out into the world. And if you want to go back and see this discussion again or share it with anybody. All of these conversations will be archived on Hell Round. It's an online theater common platform. Uh so you can continue to spread the gospel out into the world. Um, and a big thank you to 118 Elliot for hosting us in this beautiful space. And there's so much more to see and experience in this festival. And if you have any questions about that, you can come see us up at the booth where there is also a donation jar. If you feel moved to throw anything in there, feel free. If you want to purchase some merch to support, it's all over there after the panel. And I won't take up any more of your time other than to introduce for you our managing director and exquisite facilitator, McKenzie Dos. >> Hi everyone. Welcome to another Access Through the Arts panel. These panels are public forums which are an excellent way for us to introduce our artists to our community members and local members that are joining us and continue the conversations from these performances and have them ripple out among you all. Uh we will have some time at the end of this uh panel today so that you all can ask us questions. So if you have any curiosities keep them in hand and uh look for your hands at the end. Uh, as uh, as Sh said, my name is McKenzie Doss. I'm the outgoing managing director for Slass Theater. And joining me today is local community member Abigail Manukin, visiting artist Federico, visiting artist Denise Graver, and visiting artist Em. I'm going to have each of you I'm going to have each of you introduce yourselves. I almost say explain yourselves. I'll have you um introduce yourselves and describe either your work in our community or what you're bringing to our festival. >> Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Is this Yeah, seems like it's fun. Um really grateful to be part of this panel. I live here in Brattleboro and um I think I'm up here wearing a couple different hats. One of them is I'm a birth worker. I work as a doula and I assist a home birth midwife and welcoming babies into the world um and supporting families. And I also work with the Vermont Wilderness School in a Nature Connection program um helping young people feel more at home in anywhere in the world that they are. And um I also was a an organizer for climate justice with 350 Vermont um specifically working with families around issues of climate change and climate collapse. So wearing some of those hats um here with you today. Thanks. My name is Federico Dreo and Locos 7 dance puppet theater company and we're doing the show called Launch with Sonia which is based in experience that I have with my family and what I can say I can give to the Hi, my name is Denise Forever. I work with Felico uh with Local 7 Dance Puppet Theater Company. Uh we are a resident company of Lama Experimental Theater located in New York City. Uh we have been in residence there for 40 years. Uh this is actually the 40y year anniversary season of Lo7 Dance Perfect Theater Company and And um yeah, so we are bringing uh this piece at lunch with Sonia. It opened last night. Some of you may have seen it. It performs again tonight at 7:30. It is a show about death with dignity. Um and it's, as Fedrico said, it's a real life uh experience that his family went through. Um and so uh many years have passed and uh he decided that he wanted to spread the message of Sonia and uh make a theater piece out of it. And so here we are. We've been very lucky to uh have premiered this show in 2021 at the Lama in New York City 5 years ago to to the to the month to September. And uh we've been fortunate enough to keep the show running and people seem to be interested in the piece and the message that we're talking about. Um which is very much the reason we made the piece was to actually talk about it. Um and um yeah so 5 years going hopefully more. >> Hi everybody. I am Nephi Amini. I am writer and director of human and also you keep making work long enough you end up running a company too. So also artistic director hat of um Canoon Productions and Human which I'm super happy to have here out in Vermont with Sand Glass um who's my co-commissioning partner through National Performance Network. It's my ode to humanity. It's my ode to it's my intervention. And it's my hoping that we can do some things right and reconnect to who we are before all mayhem completely breaks loose. It's set far far in the future where humans have done everything right to make themselves extinct. And so here's to maybe being able to prevent that a little bit. And it's good to be here. I'll pass it back to Denise. Thank you. Thank you all so much. The theme of our panel today is talking about endings. And I'd like to ground us in that word endings because I don't think that we're talking about something that has stopped or finished or completed. I think what we're really talking about are cycles and transitions and transformations. And I'd like to ask each of you about that, about your sense of what it is to talk about an ending and how you would approach that in your particular work. >> I can actually talk about that. Um, Dark Crystal, it was my favorite movie when I was little. And the line that stood out to me the most was often saying endings, beginnings, it's all the same thing, you know, and it within the human I that is something I'm paying attention to where yeah, I do believe that we are moving into a place where what we have known of humanness and humanity is going extinct and the planet that we once knew is transforming and changing. But for me, it's not completely a thing of absolute destruction and that's the end. But it does mean simply a new beginning. That's all. And so I'm very much interested in how do we be conscious about the new beginning that we want to create and how do we take assessment of ourselves and study ourselves and pay attention to everything that's didn't work not working and see what can we apply new to the new world that we are in the midst of creating now. So thanks for that question and thanks for being somebody that greets new babies into the world. It's good to meet you. That means it's yours, right? >> Um, yeah, I feel so honored to greet new babies. It's a real um gift to be there in those moments. Um, yeah, I feel like birth work is part of this cycle of um beginnings and endings both. Um, of course we all hope and pray and do all of this spellcasting and witch work um that you know everything goes right and and all humans are um safe on the other side of it. But that doesn't always happen. So um death is really present in birth work um you know even before we know what what is happening because it's just a possibility and even though that's probably true in every moment of our lives there's something that's really tangible in the birth room and um in in that space and um facing that is one of the ways that we do this work this birth work together um there's an expression like the only way through is through and um often often times when when um the birthing parent is like in the throws of it and they just feel like they can't go further, that's like when they're in transition or really like birthing this new human into the world. And um surrendering is a big part of that. Um, but also like with birth comes endings of like what was before because your lives are completely changed and you're like born a new as a parent as well. So um it feels like all of the metaphors feel really rich around that time where um you know best case scenarios you have this new human in the world and something did still end in order for this birth to be possible. Um and so it's something that yeah just feels really present and um often talked about um in prenatal work so that they can really like face it before they're in they're in the the birth in the moment that experience happens what we confront was to realize that we die and my aunt was telling us that she want to do it and stop her life in that moment and I think that was a very strong and deep feeling to understand that we have to learn to talk about it >> because we are so scared to talk about it that doesn't allow us to really reach arrive to that moment and in more peaceful way. And the whole experience what opened to the whole family and all the friends around it was to be able to say everything that we feel and all our our feelings scare angry everything that goes through your mind when you are confronting something that you cannot control. And I believe that catharsis of feelings allowed us to reach a very peaceful moment with my aunt by the end. And after having that feeling I and after having that moment in life with her and seeing what happened, I feel that was important to try to continue that conversation and try to tell the people what happened to me in a way that everyone can feel it and leave it the way I leave it in that moment and allowed us to have open conversation about dying with dignity. Took a seven years after she passed away to decide is the moment to try let's make the piece and let's go back to remember everything that happens. Go back to read different text and stories that had been read by different family members. go back and talk to everyone and try to remember everything how happens and what was in the memory of everyone because no matter what memories not is they are very personal and they change with time so that whole research bring us to the show that we've been performing and I think it's a cycle of life is the important thing to this then >> yeah I I think uh for Sonia if you knew her when she was alive she was very much a a pioneer she was a feminist she was really someone that took very seriously her role as a mentor and set examples of how to to the possibilities that one can do and I for her uh her death was also that example she said she wanted to make it very public and not hide hide it behind closed doors. She wanted people to um understand why she thought it was a human right. It was part of our rights as humans to decide our ends. Um, and so this was also part of the reason why we felt the need to tell the story because we thought, well, maybe more people need to um, think about it, not necessarily do it. Um, because it's also very personal what one decides to do with their bodies. Um and yeah, so translate, but yeah, basically the idea of free will, the idea of freedom of your your rights to what you do, your choices for your body. And and she wanted to be sure that we talked about the uncomfortableness of dying and the inevitability that we all are going to experience that. And that was something that seems to terrify us tremendously as humans and but it is a natural thing. So how do we start to incorporate conversations about death and dying um and not have it be so overwhelming and horrifying and sad but yes a process of living and a life >> um to celebrate life >> to celebrate your life while you're alive. Thank you Denise and Federico for not just telling us about Lentressia but for sharing the context of how you came to bring this deeply personal story to the rest of the the rest of our community, the rest of our world. And uh before I move on to our next actual question, I have a sort of a sidebar. You talk a little bit about how you you came to want to build this work and and why and what that meant to you. I'd like to extend that to our other panel members of we're you're all asking these deep questions in your work. How did you come to the work itself? What led you to want to have these discussions? Um I knew that I was ready to make a new work and I was speaking with a collaborator who Abby Felder of Asheville Creative Arts who said, "Well, okay, what do you care about right now?" And I thought not that much. The only thing that really had my interest was my concern that humanity and not just our physical bodies, but humanness and kindness and the ability to connect with each other was going extinct. I've been in the classroom for a long time as well and just paying a lot of attention to the fact that children are touching machines and screens and flat surfaces more than other human beings. And my question was, if young people are interacting with machines more than actual people, then how do they know the difference between the two? How do they know that one is cold and doesn't have a nervous system and one is very soft and very fragile? It's the we're the real fragile one. I'll break that screen and we can take it to a little repair shop, but sometimes we experience things that break that never can get repaired again. And so it was that concern. And so that was the beginning of human um that was the beginning of the thinking of human. And then 3 months later, the pandemic happened and the bottom fell out and we were locked in and we became allergic to each other. And so I've just been watching since the inception of the idea every year. It's like the creation of the work is rising to meet the urgency of what's happening on our planet with each other where we really seem to be at a code red more than ever right now. and can we hang on to each other and can we hang on to our own hearts and our connection to something much bigger than the things? So that's the birth of human. Thanks for the question. >> Yeah, thank you for that. Um, yeah, I had been I had been drawn to climate work um and environmental sciences through my schooling, but it really wasn't until I became a parent myself that actually like all of these paths kind of um laid themselves out to me, it felt like so as I um my oldest child is now 14. Um, and when I um when they were born, it just it felt like, you know, my whole world clearly changed and the way that I looked out at the world felt really different. Um, and so I wanted to both like do work that felt really tangible to try to um, you know, do my small part to address the climate collapse, which is clearly much bigger than individuals. and yet like working in community feels like one of the only ways we can make it through. Um and then also like supporting families as they were um having their own babies and wanting to like support that birth process. So really like becoming a parent for me felt um felt like it shifted my you know as cliche as it sounds just like my priorities and and how I viewed the world. Um, yeah, just really like made the work that I want to do um, feel that much more significant. Thank you for that. I'm hearing a throughine of building connection, of having these difficult conversations and rising to meet them. And I think as we're talking about endings, we're we're talking about beginning these conversations themselves. how to arrive at these conversations, how to hold this space. And I know we we've had a little bit of of conversation ourselves before this uh asking um I did ask a question before about do we feel that individuals are uh separated. We talk about a uh its own pandemic of isolation of distance. You mentioned people being so invested in in screens and technology. Do you actually feel that people are as as distant as we uh culturally perceive? And where do you see your your work or even your personal conversations trying to build bridges between individuals? um whether we're talking about birth and climate change, whether we're talking about death and dignity, whether we're talking about transition after uh a collapse, these are these are difficult and deep topics. And it seems like I I guess the question I'm reaching for is um how do you approach these conversations and create that space? >> That's a chunky question. for me I feel every what when we perform lunch with Sonia that's a really good kind of open door to that conversation um we we have done the shows sometimes where we have immediately after the show a Q&A talkback and um we're always so deeply moved and impressed by the response of the audience and the questions and the exchange because it's not always like asking us a question. They'll start to tell us their experience, you know, or what what happened with their sick relative or parent and the suffering or the or that they actually did something very similar to what Sonia did. So, it's always this kind of I feel people want to share these things. They want to talk about them. They want to let them out. And I think that's the important thing is don't be ashamed or hide these thoughts or these feelings. I feel like again we feel judged by um the idea of wanting to do this. Um and I and I feel that the more we talk about it so we release that judgment and we are more open to these possibilities or accepting them when someone else decides to do it and and be there for them in the best way we can. You know, the first thing I was thinking about when you asked that was like like I'm a victim of it. Yeah. Like it takes a lot of sitting behind the computer and a lot of being on the screen myself surprisingly just to produce a work. So that is concerning. But then at the same time I'm like yeah for me the work is the conversation or the conversation starter. Um, my strategy as an artist, I'm not somebody that's going to step in and put a work on stage. I don't think that's going to be real like flat and hit you over the head with it, but I use beauty as my Trojan horse. And so there's many topics that are touched on. I use the word material. It's like it's like a like a feather tickle across the nose that's just enough to make people leave and I hope say, "Oh, did you catch that or that line or that moment?" And so that it's like I don't have to spoon feed it all to you. But my hope is that it can stimulate through symbolism, through poetry, through movement, through the visuals enough interest and curiosity that then just makes people start talking to each other and having these conversations even if I'm not present on the back behind the laptop. So that's my way of initiating conversation which we were talking is its own art form. It's like how do we make sure that that doesn't go extinct? private the ability to have discussions beyond the Instagram real clip discussion and what do they pebbles sharing pebbles of memes and things. So if that answered the question >> I think the beauty of live theater. Yeah, there it is. >> The beauty of the we all got to get together to live a moment >> together and share our moments. So I think that is very important and that is what connect us to keep us together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. like Nephrey, like you were saying, I feel like there's a real hunger for connection um and inerson connection and conversation. And sometimes it's just a matter of like opening a space so that people feel welcome and invited. Um and that happens both through my work as a climate organizer and in birth work really. Um, a lot of the time it's just getting together with people and asking them what, you know, what's on their mind, what's on their heart, what are they, um, what are their fears, what are their hopes, what are their dreams. Um, and just like allowing, you know, providing like permission to to share what they're feeling, what they're thinking. Um, a lot of the times people really like want that connection and it's just a matter of like trying to figure out how or where. Um, and so in my work with families and climate organizing, some of what we did was literally just get together, share food, sit in a circle, and like invite people to share. And it was that simple and yet like really connective and meaningful. and for parents to feel less alone in this time of like raising kids through climate collapse. That's one piece of the puzzle. Um it's not going to solve the climate crisis, but feeling less alone goes a long way and feeling more resourced to to be be more resilient and to respond to whatever comes up. >> You all do so much work to reach out to have these conversations. Have you ever experienced uh strong reactions to your work and and how have you navigated that in in your particular spaces? >> Yeah, I think with Sonia we go through many we get some nerves. >> Yeah. Very difficult feelings with the people with the audience. But at the same time, I think that's what make the show grow because the the idea is to hear everything from what reaction and what fears everyone go through. So I think that was the main purpose of the show itself to to be ready to confront those moments and to be open to hear them. and try to give an answer. No, it's impossible. But at least give that moment to the person to be able to just say what is going through their mind. So it's been hard, but it's been really good in that sense, that confrontation of this thing that we're talking about. I mean, I think just in general, like when someone decides to be an artist in in any medium um medium, they they they risk themselves, right? They they put themselves out to be judged, to be watched, to be admired, to be any any mix of things. So, I think that it's always, you know, as artists creating, it's always nerve nerve-wracking a bit, right? we put ourselves out there and we hope people enjoy what we what we're showing or are impacted by what we're so we hope they like it in some way. Um but at the same time a lot of the work that we do loco 7 uh is is very politically driven usually. I mean we're the next piece that we're working on uh which will have its premiere in November is called everything that follows and it's about climate and it's about uh humanity and it's about connection and uh the loss and uh yeah what what is happening um around us right now um reflections of that. So yeah, I think it's always um yeah, I think I find artists to be and there's some in the room very brave to take on that responsibility to try to change something in someone's mind. >> Yeah. >> Yep. I said it's always scary um push back. Yeah. I have had venues to my surprise because again I said I'm just doing like a fetish stroke across people's noses in regards to how we're touching on these topics in a very delicate way but still I've heard from venues the concern that the show makes people feel guilty. >> The show talks too much about climate change. The show makes us feel like it's our responsibility because of pollution. Um, there's a shadow habit of a slave ship. We're concerned where we we can't take this show. We're concerned that we won't be able to sell this show because of the embedded conversation about slavery and schools in this envir this particular climate aren't going to be susceptible to that. So, I'm like, okay. But I'm like, these are the conversations that are coming back off of if you put a shadow puppet up, you know, of a slave ship or if your set is made up of trash, um, all of a sudden the trash and the things that once belong to the human world where the humans are no longer stewards of the planet. Well, it's kind of tumbled down, but now it's a political topic. And so it makes people feel like they have to expose what perhaps side they stand on or that they don't want to share. Um, so that's that. And it's interesting to see where people decide that's enough. I don't want to have this conversation and I don't want you having it, nor do I want our children having it. where actually I don't think anything can transform if we're not willing to have the courage to at least be open enough to say we will talk about these things. Ignorance is a very innocent word in my opinion but we have to have the ability to at least be honest. Um, going backwards for a second, too, about how do we have the conversations in my art making, the community engagement part is a big part of it. Um, we're not doing it here, but there's a pre-show puppet making activity that is tied into this show where audience shows up in advance and they make puppets to participate in the show out of trash. And it seems like it's fun but and it is but at the same time it's really a conversation and asking people to stand next to each other and work with your hands while talking and thinking about who and what is disposable and is anything or anyone really disposable and what does that word mean and what is a place called nowhere and what is a word called nothing and does either really exist. So, these are the things that I try to get people talking about while doing the thing that's fun and making a puppet out of out of trash. >> And that's a beautiful segue. Actually, as we're we're talking a little bit about um reactions to some of your work and how there can be a fear response which shuts down some of that conversation whether we're talking about climate change, whether we're talking about uh life transitions, whether we're talking about birth. But it seems like a lot of your work is to elevate that conversation whether through community engagement or theatrical work. And so I'm I'm curious to hear how you perceive in your work where you're encourage encouraging people to move past a response that shuts down that conversation whether with with music or with um a craft. I'm I'm curious to hear about that because clearly I'm not asking the question why private but more of how are you how are you using this craft to uh what I perceive to be an elevation of these conversations >> since I'm holding mine >> it is something I I learned a while ago and I realized the power of puppetry and I've said this before which is like I can say something to you and you'll get pretty mad at me. But if the puppet does it and it's just string and it's just paper and it's glue and it's there's just enough of a barrier there that the puppet creates that the seemingly inanimate creates that allows the human being to not feel so defensive, you know, and so like but actually smile and listen and take it in and then can kind of privately work with it on their own. And I think that that's a very important tool of puppetry that it creates an opening that doesn't feel like the pressure of, you know, ego can get in the way and shame can get in the way and the puppets kind of help that. >> Agreed. Sonia is had to be a puppet. >> Yeah, >> she had to be. Yeah, that was one of the conversation that we have and we we we thought we have different characters. They are puppets. But the main character needs to be a puppet because what she's going to talk about it the only way people is going to allow to hear it was through a puppet. >> So the casting didn't happen. We went straight to a puppet. We didn't audition. She was made for the part. I love that. Um yeah, I feel like again overlapping in all of the work that I do. Um there's this idea that there's kind of like hope on one side um or joy or celebration and then like fear on another. Um, but recently I've been thinking more about, and I don't remember where I first heard this, but it's really not the fear that's on the flip side. It's like despair and things like feelings that really prevent you from feeling like any action that you take is worthwhile. Um, and so I don't necessarily feel like the fear is like the enemy. um the fear is probably going to be there in all of the work that we're doing. Um and that's okay. And um you know like talking to that fear and reassuring it and also like welcoming it and saying like this makes a lot of sense that you're here. This is scary. This is like really really scary. Um and like helping that fear feel less alone in it. And um that that's actually like how we bravely move forward. Like you can't be brave if you're not scared of a thing because then you're not being brave. You're just doing a thing. You're like I don't even feel scared. That's like that's that's not brave. Um so the only way like any of us can be brave is to feel scared and then do it anyway. Um, so yeah, I feel like fear is a very is like welcomed and like just makes so much sense for all of us to feel and it's just a matter of like figuring out how we can still take action. So So I'm not trying to like push away the fear. I'm I'm trying to like fend off despair cuz I think that's what um makes it really hard to feel like there's any reason why we'd want to do anything. ALL RIGHT. And um one of my final questions and then we'll move towards the audience. In in your work, there's so much that calls people in. Where do you perceive is an important point or a beloved point to you that really invites people to engage with your work? or or if you if you like um what do you hope people will take from your work? >> I guess I'll go with it. I'm holding the mic. Um yeah, I think that what I really hope people will take away is that um you're not alone in this. like whatever whatever the work is that we're here to do, no one of us can do it and we definitely can't do it alone. So, um, so just, yeah, a sense of like being held in community, whatever communities those are, whether it's a community of puppeteers and other artists and musicians, um, or other parents, people who are welcoming new babies, um, kids who are just like trying to navigate this world. um my 14-year-old, like my biggest hope for them is that they just feel like they have people on their side and that they are um in this together with others. And so um yeah, I'm hopeful that just gathering in community in different spaces helps um each of us to to feel like we're less alone in this work of being human. I guess what you say to be brave to have a conversation of something they each has so much. So I think that's what is important to try to find that something that we all need to talk about and to share that conversation. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's why I I got into theater because it was always uh it's an art form. It's a way to be creative, but you can't do it by yourself. You you'll always need many many different people. You need the writer, the director, the stage manager, the actors, the technicians. So, it's you're always surrounded by people. And so for me doing the work, working with Loco 7, all the different shows that we've done over the years and the different actors and casts and technicians and musicians and composers, we've been very fortunate to build a family around us all the time. So we don't always feel alone. Right. Um the closing question in human that I leave with the audience that we leave with the audience is what kind of human do you want to be that it's we're not this finished stagnant you know we're not cement but we're also wet clay water to be exact. So that if there's an aspect that we can see in ourselves or in our lives that we don't appreciate that we still have the opportunity to transform it that we really do get to decide what kind of human being do we want to be in this world and now start actively courageously bravely working to be more like that just a little single little tiny bit every single day until we get there and that's it. Thank you. >> Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing with us. I would like to invite the audience to ask questions of our panel members. If you would like to raise your hand, I will bring the microphone out to you. I'm on my way. Hi, I was wondering um because these works that you're bringing to this festival sound so um very personal and experience and very deep um emotional experiences. I'm someone who struggles to put my own vulnerability into my work and letting people see myself. And I was so wondering if you had moments in the creative process where there was a struggle to let people see your own vulnerability um and see who you are cuz it the show would tell so much about you as a person. >> I'm a puppeteer who's scared all the time and whose hands tremble. >> Take that. And there's just nothing I can do about it. And so I love what you said about the fear and it makes sense that the fear is here because it is scary to turn yourself inside out and expose your inside to the world. And so I just push through it every single day some. But it's never with the expectation that I'm not going to be afraid. It's always while trembling that I do it. So just tremble on >> for me. I remember when this happened. It was a September 2012 and uh I was in New York and Fedrico was in Colombia in Boba which is where this happened with Sonia and um I remember him coming home after um and talking about the experience and you know I was visualizing what you know I personally did did not want to go um I decided to stay home. it and and so when he did come home he was like oh um we have to do a show about this and I was like I said yeah we will eventually we'll let's you know and then like a year later we got to do it yeah we'll have to we'll do it we'll do it and it took like uh about 7 years till and I said I promise you we're going to do the show but I we have to feel I have to feel ready >> to be able to write this and do this journey recreate this um this moment and feel that I have the emotional strength and mental strength to to do it and and and to you know because the fear and the repercussions also this was something that was part of it all like what are people going to think what are people going to say is it is it too much you know all of this and so yeah it took quite quite a few years to to build up the courage and and say okay let's do it and jump in to creating it writing it building it and eventually performing it in front of an audience. >> For me, it's the same. I always afraid. I feel that I I'm very I'm very very nervous and I hide behind puppets and try to talk about things that I want to say. So the puppet has been really an incredible instrument to allow me to to do that and the whole process to do the shot was really difficult. I want to do it. I feel I need to do it. But I was very afraid and very afraid of my family, >> what they going to say and what what what is going to be my interpretation of the of what happened. And uh I was very scared. And what happened is the opening in New York when I went into the stage I realized I have many family they came from different parts of the world to see the opening >> and I didn't know and that was very scary and I I think that kind of u give you courage okay I mean if nothing to do on the stage. We got to do it. So do it and see what they think about it and and is my interpretation is what my memories. So So it's important just to push yourself because in the end who cares. Yeah, I think some of um the struggle with vulnerability is again this sense of like being the only one who feels this way or who has this particular story. Um, and there I find that there's so much power in just like finding alignment with other people who who share similarities even if it's not the exact same experience. Um, and so in my work with kids, often times if I like if I'm trying to introduce something and there's resistance, like I have to model it myself. So whether that's like being goofy or climbing a tree or trying to, you know, um lead some like nature connection activity, they're much more likely to engage if they see you doing the thing or and so I feel like that's also similar with vulnerability. It's like when you put yourself out there, so often the response is people sharing like you were saying, they'll share their own stories with you then and their own vulnerabilities and then that makes it easier for the next time. And so, um, there's just like so much camaraderie in that. >> You have any more questions? I saw lunch with Sonia last night and I loved that you got Sonia up to tango and I just wondered how you I mean maybe you always use dance in your performances but this piece with all the dance in it >> it was you didn't Yes, you had the whole story going But the dance told so much more. And I don't know if you want to talk about what inspired the choreography and the dance for this, but it it was powerful. >> Thank you. I I start as a dancer. >> So that was that that's that's where I'm come from. So the way for me to tell the stories was always through my body and dancing. The puppet came later and I stay with the puppet and try to create this dance puppetry >> world. Um, with Lodge with Sonia, I feel that the choreography is all the the feelings that we feel with the story inside and the way to allowed to tell the individual character on the stage what is going through their mind with this conversation happening in the living room. the the movement and the dance are the ones they allow that individual individuality of the whole family >> there. So I hope that answered the question. >> Yeah, that's what it was. >> I love the teenagers, >> all of that nervous energy. Um, I wonder if you could speak about the iterative iterative iterative process of theater and livveness and and even potentially like birthing multiple babies into the world that comes like there's death and then there's this idea that nothing dies until the very last time it's ever thought of or spoken about. And I wonder if you could talk about the I'm I'm kind of leaning towards wanting to talk about the like joy of of allowing something to keep living, but it could also be about the hardship of the edges of that. Um, but like what is it like to do a show over and over and over again that that re that faces the edges of the ending? I well inside of the show is is is a part that people didn't want to finish that lunch, >> right? And we have that movie is the the cooking movie, right? We all as a family always gathering with food. That's the main way we all gathering in every culture. And that movie we make it with the idea to give a time to the dinner, right? But all most of the people want her to keep living and we was trying to extend it to the last moment less than the last tangle. Let's try to keep it alive. >> And that feeling that you just said, I think that was part of the circle of life. the we live in the show and I think that answer part of your question. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it it's difficult to keep doing this show in in a in one in one hand and you kind of have to like, okay, we're going to do lunch with Sunday again and you know, we we have a reperatory, so we create other shows and we have our children's show that gives us a little light feeling like, oh, we're going to do Donkeyote, let's do Donkeyote, and then, you know, it balances out with this. But I do I kind of feel like it's our mission to do this show. For me, this is kind of community service by presenting this piece. So, in that regard, it makes it easier to continue these conversations and and live again that hour of this last lunch with Sonia. Um, because at the end, I don't know. I just think it's really important. So, I'm I'm always willing if someone says, "Oh, we would love to have lunch with Sonia at our theater or our festival." We'll always say, "We will work with you and we'll try to make it happen." >> Yeah. Keep it alive. >> Keep it alive. >> Do we have any more questions from the audience? >> You say you got a lot of comments from the audience after the ending of lunch with Sonia. I wonder how much the play has changed in five years. I I from the very very first version uh we've cut a couple of scenes that you know trim the fat a little bit made it a little bit tighter but mostly hasn't changed that much. It's just I think it's getting better. the puppeteers and the dancers. Just a lot of them have uh uh three of the three of the performers that are here with us right now have been with us for the five years and have every performance we've almost every performance we've ever done. Two have been in every and three sorry him have been in every show that we've ever done of Lunch with Sonia. So it's like really deeply embedded inside of Zans. Um and I think they also feel the same the the company uh who have performed like with Sonia over the years and the various company members I think they also feel that the importance of the story and um the the need to talk about death and to try to find some kind of peace with it. >> I thought I just thought you might be adding things in but you're not you're taking it out >> from the first show. Yeah. >> From the first the very first run. Yeah. We tripped a little bit. >> Um, what is an important like detail or emotion that you like really wanted to show in your work? >> For all of us? >> Yeah. Um well for um I think for Loco 7 in general when we do all of our shows our repatory over the years I think we want um a good change like a good um something good to come from the experience. So um to turn uh a negative into a positive as much as possible. Hope for the future. um always and so yeah I think to for hope I think at the end for a better world. >> Yeah, >> I agree. >> I agree. Um I was reading an interview with the playwright once Marsha Norman and she was talking about that when she's writing um most importantly is the character for her that has the highest stakes you know where the risk are the highest. And that's when it dawned on me in all my work that for me the most important character, the character where there's the highest stakes, it's the audience. And so when I start making a work, I'm actually thinking backwards, which is when the people put on their socks and then leave the house and come see this thing, I have this short little window of time where the audience has gathered. How do I want them to be different by the time they leave? It's a it's a great opportunity to plant something new inside of a person. And so it is with hope and transformation and how to make each human being that sat down in that room care a little bit more. Care is a big deal to me. Thanks. >> Yeah. And I think maybe just um adding to that um Belle Hooks talks about how love is a verb like love is an action as opposed to just a feeling. And um I feel similarly about hope. And so I I guess one hope that I would have um would be that people would leave with a feeling that then like spurs or spawns some action whatever that means. um and care similarly like usually you take action to protect like those that you care about the natural world, humans, other beings. So um yeah, I think turning whatever feelings come up into some form of of taking action. >> Um did you guys think that you were going to be going on this path when you were kids? I want to be a veterinarian. >> I still did. >> I But then I was like, but they die and I don't want to deal with that. >> Right. >> I think you you did, right? You always wanted to be an artist. >> Yes. Yes. I since I was very ill, I I was painting and creating and trying to do things without knowing what I was heading to. >> But um everything that I did since I was a kid, I think was creating the theater world that I finished doing. >> Yeah. I had lots of different ideas when I was a kid, but it is interesting. Um, I have a friend that I've actually known since I was eight or nine months old, which is really beautiful thing to have that long arc of friendship. Um, and she was recently recounting that if she if she could have projected from when I was young, I've always loved babies. I've always loved holding babies. Um, like I used to go to my neighbor's house when I was seven or eight to hold the new baby. And so she was like, "Of course, part of your work is like welcoming and holding babies. It makes so much sense." But at that point, I didn't know. So >> I like that trajectory. >> Yeah. I I I I wanted to uh I I used to like to paint and draw and um do visual arts. And then I remember being in junior high school and they took the art class to the theater and it was they were doing Oliver Twist and we were painting the set on the stage and I was like, well, what is this this theater thing? And so that kind of started to tweak my interest um around junior high and then got more involved in theater and theater and theater and then puppetry came along the way. But no, I I definitely didn't think puppets would be in my life even at that point because I was really unaware of how that would fit in. But I'm very glad that it I I found my way to it. >> I didn't know, but when I look back, it was always there. So, I'm the one who collected all the stuffed animals and every time a new one came in and they covered the whole wall of my room. It wasn't just like, "Oh, new one." It was taking the time to introduce the new one by name to each one that was already there and always making up stories. And the base of all of the puppets is clay. And I remember I grew up in Georgia and we would make mud pies. This is me like four years old. And I would tell my friends cuz they would make mud pies and it would be like gone within a little bit of time. But I would say um if you dig down real deep where the dirt is sticky, you know, make your mud pie from that and my pies would be there for like weeks. I was like I was working in clay then didn't know it. And I was always had this thing about inanimate objects really being alive and my mom just put up with me with it and didn't make me feel weird about it. But yeah, the the puppeteer and they say if you pay attention to the young people in your life, they will tell you who they are and they will show you who their purpose is early on and it's already there. So your only real job is just to not block it and to just let them be who they are. And I guess I wasn't blocked. Thank you all so much for your beautiful sharings today and just for allowing us to see the conversations that you're seeding and stewarding. It's been lovely being in conversation with you and thank you so much to our audience for sharing your questions and experiences as well. I hope you all will come back. As we've been talking about endings, this is not the end. We have another panel tomorrow at 12:30 p.m. which I hope you'll be present for. And to our panel again, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you.